World change
mike3
I saw this:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/bd4c0781ccb48881?hl=en&dmode=source
" "God's purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can
bring
about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the
Great,
the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. *Its
present
state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark.
Its
**distant** future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant - so
radiant that no
eye can visualize it.*"
(Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, Page: 116) "
(emphs mine)
So it says that only the _distant_ future will be bright. Which seems
to
suggest that we _cannot_ have a birght future soon, no matter what we
choose.
Yet then what's this about?
"And I don't believe that disaster *have* to happen. Mankind has a
choice.
As the Universal House of Justice says in The Promise of World Peace:
"World peace is not only possible but inevitable. It is the next
stage in
the evolution of the planet... Whether peace is to be reached only
after
unimaginable horrors precipitated by humanity's stubborn clinging to
old
patterns of behavior, or is to be embraced now by an act of
consultative
will, is the choice before all who inabit the earth. At this critical
juncture when the intractable problems confronting nations have been
fused
into one common concern for the whole world, failure to stem the tide
of
conflict and disorder would be unconscionably irresponsible..." "
Yet from the first quote it would appear our "choice" has little
effect. It will only
be in the distant future (what does that mean? 100 years? 1000 years?
1000000
years???) that we will have a good world, and so we could not get one
even
if we all chose to have it right now, otherwise that would mean that
Shoghi Effendi
was wrong, and wouldn't that throw a major wrench in the whole
"infallibility of the
Guardian" thingy that is a key part of the Baha'i religion? What's up
here,
anyway? Do we have a choice, really, or is it all set up by God in
such a way that
only God can control when it happens, and we must suffer miserably and
horribly,
generation after generation, until this special preset date comes?
Suzanne
> Yet from the first quote it would appear our "choice" has little
> effect. It will only
> be in the distant future (what does that mean? 100 years? 1000 years?
> 1000000
> years???)
Hi Mike,
Our choices always have an effect. They effect our own personal
spiritual development, and they have a ripple effect in the world.
We don't know when the whole world will change and be "gloriously
radiant", as Shoghi Effendi said. This has to do with the Golden Age
of humanity and not merely choices which bring about peace. We do
know that peace will come in stages though, and during the earlier
stages humanity isn't going to be as spiritually developed as they
will be at later stages. The Universal House of Justice said:
"We know, however, that peace will come in stages. First, there will
come the Lesser Peace, when the unity of nations will be achieved,
then gradually the Most Great Peace -- the spiritual as well as social
and political unity of mankind, when the Bahá'í World Commonwealth,
operating in strict accordance with the laws and ordinances of the
Most Holy Book of the Bahá'í Revelation, will have been established
through the efforts of the Bahá'ís.
(The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 655)
They go on to say that even the Lesser Peace will unfold in stages.
So we are looking at a process of humanity progressing towards the
Golden Age, and not necessarily an event which changes the whole world
from one day to the next. But in that process, certainly the choices
which are made and implemented for the common good will always have an
effect. Personally, I believe that individuals who strive to really
put the teachings of Baha'u'llah into effect in their lives can reach
a spiritual state which may, as a byproduct, bring as much joy, peace
and contentment as the people will feel in the Golden Age. We don't
have to wait for the whole world to catch up. We can be, as
Baha'u'llah has promised, "the quickeners of mankind."
Best wishes,
Suzanne
mike3
> Mike wrote:
> > Yet from the first quote it would appear our "choice" has little
> > effect. It will only
> > be in the distant future (what does that mean? 100 years? 1000 years?
> > 1000000
> > years???)
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Our choices always have an effect. They effect our own personal
> spiritual development, and they have a ripple effect in the world.
>
"Our choice" here meant the choice mankind as a whole makes.
> We don't know when the whole world will change and be "gloriously
> radiant", as Shoghi Effendi said. This has to do with the Golden Age
> of humanity and not merely choices which bring about peace. We do
> know that peace will come in stages though, and during the earlier
> stages humanity isn't going to be as spiritually developed as they
> will be at later stages. The Universal House of Justice said:
>
But see it mentions the "immediate future" and the present as being
really "dark", while the "distant" one is "glorious". But what about
*between* that -- could it be a lot brighter than now even if it is
not
as bright as it will be at that "distant" point? Obviously it would
have
to if this is an evolutionary process where things change continuously
and progressively, a bit at a time, no?
> "We know, however, that peace will come in stages. First, there will
> come the Lesser Peace, when the unity of nations will be achieved,
> then gradually the Most Great Peace -- the spiritual as well as social
> and political unity of mankind, when the Bahá'í World Commonwealth,
> operating in strict accordance with the laws and ordinances of the
> Most Holy Book of the Bahá'í Revelation, will have been established
> through the efforts of the Bahá'ís.
> (The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p
.. 655)
>
So does this mean that an international government and state will only
be established at that very distant point -- the Golden Age and Most
Great
Peace?
> They go on to say that even the Lesser Peace will unfold in stages.
> So we are looking at a process of humanity progressing towards the
> Golden Age, and not necessarily an event which changes the whole world
> from one day to the next.
The theory I was referring to was this. Mankind has a choice as to
what
it wants to do. So in *theory*, even if in actuality the odds are
99.99999999
(lots of 9s)9999% that we won't do it, we could choose to have the
peace
now and so "invalidate" the statement that it will only be in the
distant future.
In *theory*. Otherwise, we (mankind as a whole) wouldn't have a
choice, no?
Yet if this is supposed to be "infallible" then how could this be?
0.0000000
(lots of 0s)0001% odds of it happening are not the same as 0%, which
is
what "infallible" means -- exactly 0% error rate.
Suzanne
Suzanne wrote:
> > Our choices always have an effect. They effect our own personal
> > spiritual development, and they have a ripple effect in the world.
Mike wrote:
> "Our choice" here meant the choice mankind as a whole makes.
Not everyone, but a reasonable number of people and their governments.
Mike wrote:
> But see it mentions the "immediate future" and the present as being
> really "dark", while the "distant" one is "glorious".
The comment by Shoghi Effendi about the immediate future being
"distressingly dark" was published in The World Order of Baha'u'llah
which came out in 1941. That means it was written either before WWII
or in the early stages of it. Since much of the world was drawn in to
a war, you could definitely say that the immediate future, at that
point in time, was distressingly dark. However, the golden age when
there wil be no more war, and there will be a divine civilization will
be gloriously radiant.
Mike wrote:
> But what about
> *between* that -- could it be a lot brighter than now even if it is
> not
> as bright as it will be at that "distant" point?
Definitely.
Mike:
> Obviously it would
> have
> to if this is an evolutionary process where things change continuously
> and progressively, a bit at a time, no?
Yes.
Quote:
>
> > "We know, however, that peace will come in stages. First, there will
> > come the Lesser Peace, when the unity of nations will be achieved,
> > then gradually the Most Great Peace -- the spiritual as well as social
> > and political unity of mankind, when the Bahá'í World Commonwealth,
> > operating in strict accordance with the laws and ordinances of the
> > Most Holy Book of the Bahá'í Revelation, will have been established
> > through the efforts of the Bahá'ís.
> > (The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p
> .. 655)
Mike:
> So does this mean that an international government and state will only
> be established at that very distant point -- the Golden Age and Most
> Great
> Peace?
Nobody knows exactly when all this will come about, but the signing of
protocols making war impossible and an international government are
both aspects of the lesser peace. That will come first. The
spiritual transformation of humankind are all aspects of the Most
Great Peace, and that will come later, but there will be lots of
people who are spiritually transformed before that time. There are
now. A metaphor I like to think of for this is popcorn. You know how
first a few kernels pop, and then quite a few more, and then masses of
them pop, and a few remain unpopped, even at the end? Well I think of
it that way with humanity's spiritualization. First it's a few, and
then it's a lot more, and finally it's the majority, but it will never
be everyone. And God only knows the time frame.
Mike:
> The theory I was referring to was this. Mankind has a choice as to
> what
> it wants to do. So in *theory*, even if in actuality the odds are
> 99.99999999
> (lots of 9s)9999% that we won't do it, we could choose to have the
> peace
> now and so "invalidate" the statement that it will only be in the
> distant future.
> In *theory*. Otherwise, we (mankind as a whole) wouldn't have a
> choice, no?
We do have a choice but in choosing peace over war we won't invalidate
any prophecies. God knows ahead of time what choice we're going to
make because there is no time in the world of God. The past, present
and future are all the same to God. That's why prophets can make
accurate prophecies. However, the fact that they know what's going to
happen doesn't mean that they make it happen. That would be like
saying that a meterologist, because s/he can predict the weather, is
creating the weather and the weather is not free to act as it
pleases. It would be a huge mistake if we were just to assume that
everything was preordained so that there would be no point in trying
to bring about peace now. And it wouldn't make sense to say that if
we were all to choose for peace now that would invalidate prophecies,
since the prophecies have no date on them.
Suzanne
mike3
<snip>
> The comment by Shoghi Effendi about the immediate future being
> "distressingly dark" was published in The World Order of Baha'u'llah
> which came out in 1941. That means it was written either before WWII
> or in the early stages of it. Since much of the world was drawn in to
> a war, you could definitely say that the immediate future, at that
> point in time, was distressingly dark. However, the golden age when
> there wil be no more war, and there will be a divine civilization will
> be gloriously radiant.
>
I suppose so. So it doesn't _have_ to remain so dark for an extremely
long
time, then?
> Mike wrote:
> > But what about
> > *between* that -- could it be a lot brighter than now even if it is
> > not
> > as bright as it will be at that "distant" point?
>
> Definitely.
>
That makes sense.
I guess that would make sense as well. So the international government
and
state doesn't necessarily have to be really really far off (like 1,000
years or more
from now).
<snip>
> We do have a choice but in choosing peace over war we won't invalidate
> any prophecies. God knows ahead of time what choice we're going to
> make because there is no time in the world of God. The past, present
> and future are all the same to God. That's why prophets can make
> accurate prophecies. However, the fact that they know what's going to
> happen doesn't mean that they make it happen. That would be like
> saying that a meterologist, because s/he can predict the weather, is
> creating the weather and the weather is not free to act as it
> pleases. It would be a huge mistake if we were just to assume that
> everything was preordained so that there would be no point in trying
> to bring about peace now. And it wouldn't make sense to say that if
> we were all to choose for peace now that would invalidate prophecies,
> since the prophecies have no date on them.
>
It may not have a date, but it does talk about "distant" future, which
is
more than not talking about the timeframe at all.
mike3
> "distressingly dark" was published in The World Order of Baha'u'llah
> which came out in 1941. That means it was written either before WWII
> or in the early stages of it. Since much of the world was drawn in to
> a war, you could definitely say that the immediate future, at that
> point in time, was distressingly dark. However, the golden age when
> there wil be no more war, and there will be a divine civilization will
> be gloriously radiant.
>
I suppose so. So it doesn't _have_ to remain so dark for an extremely
long
time, then?
> Mike wrote:
> > But what about
> > *between* that -- could it be a lot brighter than now even if it is
> > not
> > as bright as it will be at that "distant" point?
>
> Definitely.
>
That makes sense.
I guess that would make sense as well. So the international government
and
state doesn't necessarily have to be really really far off (like 1,000
years or more
from now).
<snip>
> We do have a choice but in choosing peace over war we won't invalidate
> any prophecies. God knows ahead of time what choice we're going to
> make because there is no time in the world of God. The past, present
> and future are all the same to God. That's why prophets can make
> accurate prophecies. However, the fact that they know what's going to
> happen doesn't mean that they make it happen. That would be like
> saying that a meterologist, because s/he can predict the weather, is
> creating the weather and the weather is not free to act as it
> pleases. It would be a huge mistake if we were just to assume that
> everything was preordained so that there would be no point in trying
> to bring about peace now. And it wouldn't make sense to say that if
> we were all to choose for peace now that would invalidate prophecies,
> since the prophecies have no date on them.
>
It may not have a date, but it does talk about "distant" future, which
mike3
But if we are informed of this choice, doesn't that make it impossible
to
choose otherwise, or a "paradox" would exist? (you're informed, you
choose otherwise. If you're informed you'd choose otherwise, you could
choose otherwise still. And so on...) Maybe the informing doesn't make
it impossible, but rather it suggests that it *is* something pre-
ordained,
i.e. it is still impossible for it to be anything but the distant
future,
however the impossibility is not created by the knowledge. Rather
the knowledge tells us that it is impossible, and so then would warn
us
away from wasting our effort on it. Yet then why say this?:
> It would be a huge mistake if we were just to assume that
> everything was preordained so that there would be no point in trying
> to bring about peace now.
And finally if it does suggest an impossibility then why say we have a
choice, when it is ultimately destiny that it must be a long time? Or
is it
that we have a choice in what to do but not a choice in how long it
takes
us to choose (if that makes any sense?)?
Suzanne Gerstner
You ask:
<<I suppose so. So it doesn't _have_ to remain so dark for an extremely long
time, then?>>
No. In terms of war, it's already gotten quite a bit lighter. At the time
of WWII, people were drawn into wars all over the planet. Comparitively
speaking, at the moment there are just a handful of them.
<<I guess that would make sense as well. So the international government and
state doesn't necessarily have to be really really far off (like 1,000 years
or more from now).
No. I believe that, process-wise, we are in the Lesser Peace right now.
Any part of that could happen quite quickly.
<<It may not have a date, but it does talk about "distant" future, which is
more than not talking about the timeframe at all.>>
The distant future will be more radiant than we can imagine. That doesn't
preclude some radiance before that time. The light will just grow more over
time. Here's a prediction by Baha'u'llah about that same Golden Age:
"A race of men," is [Baha'u'llah's] written promise, "incomparable in
character, shall be raised up which, with the feet of detachment, will tread
under all who are in heaven and on earth, and will cast the sleeve of
holiness over all that hath been created from water and clay."
(Shoghi Effendi: The Advent of Divine Justice, Page: 31)
Do you really think that day is just around the corner? I believe it will
take some time.
Suzanne
Suzanne Gerstner
Mike wrote:
<<Maybe the informing doesn't make
it impossible, but rather it suggests that it *is* something pre-
ordained,
i.e. it is still impossible for it to be anything but the distant
future,
however the impossibility is not created by the knowledge. Rather
the knowledge tells us that it is impossible, and so then would warn
us
away from wasting our effort on it
Yet then why say this?:
> It would be a huge mistake if we were just to assume that
> everything was preordained so that there would be no point in trying
> to bring about peace now.
And finally if it does suggest an impossibility then why say we have a
choice, when it is ultimately destiny that it must be a long time? Or
is it
that we have a choice in what to do but not a choice in how long it
takes
us to choose (if that makes any sense?)?>>
Mike,
It's known by God that it will take a long time for us to reach the Golden
Age, but in order for us to get there, many, many people will have to work
very hard. So by working hard at bringing about peace, love and unity, we
are not in any way changing the outcome of any prophecy. It is well-known
that many of us will try hard, and will eventually succeed.
Perhaps this passage by 'Abdu'l-Baha will help with your question:
PREDESTINATION
Question. - If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed
by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to
resist it?
Answer. - The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its
realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way,
the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it
does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.
But that which was prophesied by the inspiration of God through the tongues
of the Prophets, concerning the appearance of the Promised One of the Bible,
was not the cause of the manifestation of Christ.
The hidden secrets of the future were revealed to the Prophets, and
They thus became acquainted with the future events which They announced.
This knowledge and these prophecies were not the cause of the occurrences.
For example, tonight everyone knows that after seven hours the sun will
rise, but this general foreknowledge does not cause the rising and
appearance of the sun.
Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not
produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the
past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things;
it is not the cause of their occurrence.
In the same way, the record and the mention of a thing in the Book does
not become the cause of its existence. The Prophets, through the divine
inspiration, knew what would come to pass. For instance, through the divine
inspiration They knew that Christ would be martyred, and They announced it.
Now, was Their knowledge and information the cause of the martyrdom of
Christ? No; this knowledge is a perfection of the Prophets and did not
cause the martyrdom.
The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain
time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery
does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an
analogy and not an exact image.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Pages: 138-139)
Suzanne
mike3
wrote:
I've seen this before, however it doesn't seem to help so much. As I
said, I am
not saying the prophecy somehow causes itself to come true, but rather
that
when a prophecy is presented, it means that things have been cast in
stone
that they must be that way, so no matter what choice we make, it WILL
be
a long time off, PERIOD. Yet then what's the point of the choice? See
what
I'm trying to say here?
mike3
wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> You ask:
>
> <<I suppose so. So it doesn't _have_ to remain so dark for an extremely l
ong
> time, then?>>
>
> No. In terms of war, it's already gotten quite a bit lighter. At th
e time
> of WWII, people were drawn into wars all over the planet. Comparitivel
y
> speaking, at the moment there are just a handful of them.
>
> <<I guess that would make sense as well. So the international government
and
> state doesn't necessarily have to be really really far off (like 1,000 ye
ars
> or more from now).
>
> No. I believe that, process-wise, we are in the Lesser Peace right now
> Any part of that could happen quite quickly.
>
> <<It may not have a date, but it does talk about "distant" future, which
is
> more than not talking about the timeframe at all.>>
>
> The distant future will be more radiant than we can imagine. That does
n't
> preclude some radiance before that time. The light will just grow more
over
> time. Here's a prediction by Baha'u'llah about that same Golden Age:
>
> "A race of men," is [Baha'u'llah's] written promise, "incomparable in
> character, shall be raised up which, with the feet of detachment, will tr
ead
> under all who are in heaven and on earth, and will cast the sleeve of
> holiness over all that hath been created from water and clay."
> (Shoghi Effendi: The Advent of Divine Justice, Page: 31)
>
> Do you really think that day is just around the corner? I believe it w
ill
> take some time.
>
Perhaps not, but I'm more concerned about the ending of the dark, even
before the light is bright.
Douglas McAdam
On Jun 28, 2009, at 3:32 AM, mike3 wrote:
> I've seen this before, however it doesn't seem to help so much. As I
> said, I am
> not saying the prophecy somehow causes itself to come true, but rather
> that
> when a prophecy is presented, it means that things have been cast in
> stone
> that they must be that way, so no matter what choice we make, it WILL
> be
> a long time off, PERIOD. Yet then what's the point of the choice? See
> what
> I'm trying to say here?
Hi Mike-
I don't have the quote at my fingertips but the Universal House of
Justice, in one of their letters, mentioned the biggest barrier to
world peace is the belief it is not possible. In my classes I always
ask the participants if they believe we can have world unity and world
peace and 9 of 10 will say it is not possible. Then I point out the
situation here in the USA where 13 separate sovereignties came
together formed this Union wherein we have each city and state with
their own govt. but all are under the wing of the Federal Govt. so
that no States would declare war on each other without the Feds
stepping in to remedy the problem. So if this has happened in America
then why not in the world? Sure we don't have full unity here yet but
still we don't have these wars between States or even between Canada,
South America, etc.
By our efforts we can make this World Peace happen in our own lifetime
or not it will eventually happen for it is God's Plan.
So the choice is when it is going to happen not if it will happen.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
On Jun 28, 2009, at 3:41 AM, mike3 wrote:
>
> Perhaps not, but I'm more concerned about the ending of the dark, even
> before the light is bright.
Hi Mike-
I hear you and I too am concerned for I have been a Baha'i now for 41
years and when I declared I was very depressed to see all the problems
in society at that time and I recognized Baha'u'llah gave us the
answer and here we are today where I am still seeing and hearing the
"same ole, same ole", so to speak and yet I also see there has been
some progress. We do have less wars than any time in history but the
deaths, injury etc. from our current wars are far more because new
weapons of destruction. I see some progress in racism and religious
prejudice, equality of the sexes and other things too but these
positive things don't get much press for bad news is the thing that
sells.
regards,
doug
Suzanne Gerstner
I
believe it will take some time.
Mike wrote: <<Perhaps not, but I'm more concerned about the ending of th
e
dark, even before the light is bright.>>
Shoghi Effendi called us "children of the half light." We have both ligh
t
and darkness right now.
There is much light, and has been since the coming of Baha'u'llah. Why d
o
you think He is referred to as "the Sun of Reality." 'Abdu'l-Baha called
the 20th century "the century of light." This is in the second to last
sentence. I'm quoting this from Shoghi Effendi so that you will see that
he
was well aware of this, and that this isn't a contradiction of what he sa
id
about the immediate future being "distressingly dark":
"'Abdu'l-Bahá Himself elucidates this truth in one of His Tablets: "In
cycles gone by, though harmony was established, yet, owing to the absence
of
means, the unity of all mankind could not have been achieved. Continents
remained widely divided, nay even among the peoples of one and the same
continent association and interchange of thought were well-nigh impossibl
e.
Consequently intercourse, understanding and unity amongst all the peoples
and kindreds of the earth were unattainable. In this day, however, means
of
communication have multiplied, and the five continents of the earth have
virtually merged into one.... In like manner all the members of the human
family, whether peoples or governments, cities or villages, have become
increasingly interdependent. For none is self-sufficiency any longer
possible, inasmuch as political ties unite all peoples and nations, and t
he
bonds of trade and industry, of agriculture and education, are being
strengthened every day. Hence the unity of all mankind can in this day be
achieved. Verily this is none other but one of the wonders of this wondro
us
age, this glorious century. Of this past ages have been deprived, for thi
s
century -- the century of light -- has been endowed with unique and
unprecedented glory, power and illumination. Hence the miraculous unfoldi
ng
of a fresh marvel every day. Eventually it will be seen how bright its
candles will burn in the assemblage of man."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 120)
So, even thought the 20th century was the century of light, and great thi
ngs
were also accomplished, the distant future will be even more radiant than
anything we can imagine. Just because you have light, doesn't mean you
can't imagine a greater light. And the light will increase from generati
on
to generation for the foreseeable future.
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
On Jun 28, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Suzanne Gerstner wrote:
> So, even thought the 20th century was the century of light, and
> great thi
> ngs
> were also accomplished, the distant future will be even more radiant
> than
>
> anything we can imagine. Just because you have light, doesn't mean
> you
> can't imagine a greater light. And the light will increase from
> generati
> on
> to generation for the foreseeable future.
Good point. Also there is a quote about the good deeds of the dear
ones being sins of the near ones. So maybe we might see in the future
that our present form, type and degree of sin will be totally
different and what we now thing is good deeds might in the future not
be so. Perfections are endless I understand.
regards,
doug
Suzanne
> I don't have the quote at my fingertips but the Universal House of
> Justice, in one of their letters, mentioned the biggest barrier to
> world peace is the belief it is not possible.
Hi Doug,
Is this the quote you were referring to?
"... Indeed, so much have aggression and conflict come to
characterize our social, economic and religious systems, that many
have succumbed to the view that such behaviour is intrinsic to human
nature and therefore ineradicable.
With the entrenchment of this view, a paralyzing contradiction has
developed in human affairs. On the one hand, people of all nations
proclaim not only their readiness but their longing for peace and
harmony, for an end to the harrowing apprehensions tormenting their
daily lives. On the other, uncritical assent is given to the
proposition that human beings are incorrigibly selfish and aggressive
and thus incapable of erecting a social system at once progressive and
peaceful, dynamic and harmonious, a system giving free play to
individual creativity and initiative but based on co-operation and
reciprocity.
As the need for peace becomes more urgent, this fundamental
contradiction, which hinders its realization, demands a reassessment
of the assumptions upon which the commonly held view of mankind’s
historical predicament is based. Dispassionately examined, the
evidence reveals that such conduct, far from expressing man’s true
self, represents a distortion of the human spirit. Satisfaction on
this point will enable all people to set in motion constructive social
forces which, because they are consistent with human nature, will
encourage harmony and co-operation instead of war and conflict"
(The Promise of World Peace)
Doug wrote:
> By our efforts we can make this World Peace happen in our own lifetime
> or not it will eventually happen for it is God's Plan.
> So the choice is when it is going to happen not if it will happen.
You're right. There's so much encouragement to really strive to
teach. What would be the point if it was all cast in stone and we
were just waiting for it all to just happen?:
"There is no time to lose. There is no room left for vacillation.
Multitudes hunger for the Bread of Life. The stage is set. The firm
and irrevocable Promise is given. God's own Plan has been set in
motion. It is gathering momentum with every passing day. The powers
of heaven and earth mysteriously assist in its execution. Such an
opportunity is irreplaceable. Let the doubter arise and himself
verify the truth of such assertions. To try, to persevere, is to
insure ultimate and complete victory."
(Shoghi Effendi: Messages to America, Page: 17)
Suzanne
mike3
wrote:
Well of course there will be more and more light, but it's the ending
of the
"depressing dark" that I'm more interested in. Such an ending doesn't
preclude
even more light coming in even further-off times.
mike3
wrote:
That makes sense. And as you can see, no dates at all are given for
when
the different changes will take place.
So then obviously we should try to work as hard as we can to build
this peace,
and NOT worry about failing.
Do you agree?
Suzanne Gerstner
<<Well of course there will be more and more light, but it's the ending of
the "depressing dark" that I'm more interested in. Such an ending doesn't
preclude
even more light coming in even further-off times.>>
Mike,
What depressing dark are you talking about? I mentioned that Shoghi
Effendi's assessment that the immediate future would be "distressingly dark"
was just before the greatest war of all time reached it's worse. Is it
really so depressingly dark right now? I don't know about you, but it
certainly isn't in my world.
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
That is not the quote I had in mine but it pretty much says the same
thing. Thanks.
Now this sentence of yours made me think of something else to mention--
> You're right. There's so much encouragement to really strive to
> teach. What would be the point if it was all cast in stone and we
> were just waiting for it all to just happen?:
I often run into Christians who say we will have world peace when
Christ returns, almost as if there is no need to really take action
for it will all happen mysteriously at His command.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
Yes, I would agree and I would say we that it is definitely going to
happen because that is God's Will and it cannot be thwarted, it can
only be delayed because of our lack of proper action or no action.
regards,
doug
Sen
wrote:
> 'Abdu'l-Baha called
> the 20th century "the century of light."
Actually, he says "this century -- the century of light -- has been
endowed with unique and unprecedented glory, power and
illumination. ..."
The supposition that this referred to the western 20th century was
never soundly based: why would Abdu'l-Baha speak using the Gregorian
calendar, rather than the islamic, the Iranian, or the Babi-Bahai
calendar?
But it's more complicated than that. The word 'century' itself is not
used in the Bahai Writings to refer just to a period of 100 years.
Often it is a synonym for 'age' and it means the Bahai dispensation,
the period between Baha’u'llah and the next great prophet, which will
be at least 1000 years according to Baha’u'llah. For example:
1. The Spiritual Assemblies to be established in this Age of God,
this holy century, have… had neither peer nor likeness in the cycles
gone before.
(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, page 82)
2. The teachings of Baha’u'llah are the light of this age and the
spirit of this century.
(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, page 107)
3. In every century a particular and central theme is, … confirmed
by God. In this illumined age that which is confirmed is the oneness
of the world of humanity.
(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, page 114)
4. Gradually whatsoever is latent in the innermost of this Holy
Cycle shall appear and be made manifest, … Ere the close of this
Century and of this Age, it shall be made clear and manifest how
wondrous was that Springtide …
(quoted in Shoghi Effendi, Baha’i Administration, p. 16)
5. … in any of the past cycles and dispensations, no assemblies
for women have ever been established … This is one of the
characteristics of this glorious Dispensation and this great century.
(Compilation on Women,; Compilation of Compilations page 397)
I've discussed this in more detail, with more quotes from the Bahai
writings and from the various pilgrim's notes that referred to the
20th century, on my blog at
http://tinyurl.com/bahai20thcent century’s end
http://tinyurl.com/centuryoflight century of light
The short version is: the century of light is the Bahai dispensation,
not the 20th century.
mike3
wrote:
> Hi Mike-
> Yes, I would agree and I would say we that it is definitely going to
> happen because that is God's Will and it cannot be thwarted, it can
> only be delayed because of our lack of proper action or no action.
>
That makes more sense, then.
mike3
wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>
> <<Well of course there will be more and more light, but it's the ending o
f
> the "depressing dark" that I'm more interested in. Such an ending doesn't
> preclude
> even more light coming in even further-off times.>>
>
> Mike,
>
> What depressing dark are you talking about? I mentioned that Shoghi
> Effendi's assessment that the immediate future would be "distressingly da
rk"
That one. (I just didn't remember the word quite right.)
> was just before the greatest war of all time reached it's worse. Is it
> really so depressingly dark right now? I don't know about you, but it
> certainly isn't in my world.
>
Well maybe not. Hmm.
Douglas McAdam
I am reminded of the old saying "it is darkest before the storm." In
any case I guess it depends a lot on ones' state of mind.
However I really think a lot about such things now because of the USA
economic downturn, the situation in Iran, the Iraqui war etc. Here we
are experiencing a terrible time with 17% unemployment as two huge
auto plants closed down, the real estate market is terrible, crime,
alcohol and drug abuse has increased and our Jail is overflowed by
about 30%. In fact all prisons in the USA are suffering from
overcrowding. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world.
So for me, at my old age and long span of history I can see how things
have truly darkened, but I also know in a way we were told this would
happen and so in a way it is a darkness and yet in another way a sign
of a greater light to come.
Regardless, we still need to strive to improve ourselves, one and all.
regards,
doug
Suzanne Gerstner
never soundly based: why would Abdu'l-Baha speak using the Gregorian
calendar, rather than the islamic, the Iranian, or the Babi-Bahai
calendar?>>
When I look up the phrase, I get a number of different quotes, and most o
f
them are in the Promulgation of Universal Peace, and so 'Abdu'l-Baha was
speaking to audiences in America, so it would make some sense that He was
adapting Himself to His audience, as He often did. Also, Shoghi Effendi
cited this phrase in theWorld Order of Baha'u'llah, which was letters
written to the American Baha'i Community without re-translating it in a
different way. Also, the Universal House of Justice took this over, and
used it in the exact same way in their book entitled "Century of Light".
So
it's an easy conclusion to come to.
<<But it's more complicated than that. The word 'century' itself is not
used in the Bahai Writings to refer just to a period of 100 years.
Often it is a synonym for 'age' and it means the Bahai dispensation,
the period between Baha’u'llah and the next great prophet...>>
That would make a lot of sense too. It makes sense that the light first
broke with the declaration of the Bab, and it's been growing steadily unt
il
eventually, at its zenith, it will become "so radiant that no eye can
visualize it."
I think this fits very well with the discussion I've been having with Mik
e.
Suzanne
mike3
wrote:
> Hi Suzanne-
> I am reminded of the old saying "it is darkest before the storm." In
> any case I guess it depends a lot on ones' state of mind.
> However I really think a lot about such things now because of the USA
> economic downturn, the situation in Iran, the Iraqui war etc. Here we
> auto plants closed down, the real estate market is terrible, crime,
> alcohol and drug abuse has increased and our Jail is overflowed by
> about 30%. In fact all prisons in the USA are suffering from
> overcrowding. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world.
> So for me, at my old age and long span of history I can see how things
> have truly darkened, but I also know in a way we were told this would
> happen and so in a way it is a darkness and yet in another way a sign
> of a greater light to come.
> Regardless, we still need to strive to improve ourselves, one and all.
>
But may this "distressing dark" end in the "near" future (say less
than
100 years), even if the "glorious" golden age is still even further
off still?
Douglas McAdam
Yes, anything is possible but we have to make it happen. However, at
this point I 'm wondering why bother speculating about all this for we
have the Writings, the Covenant and now all we need to do is strive
daily to acquire virtues by service to God and humanity.
Seems quite simple to me, we believe, we then take the appropriate
action that is revealed to us.
regards,
doug
Suzanne
>
> But may this "distressing dark" end in the "near" future (say less
> than
> 100 years), even if the "glorious" golden age is still even further
> off still?
Hi Mike,
Yes. That light has been growing steadily in the world since the dawn
of the Baha'i era.
It might be interesting to look at what light and darkness is in
spiritual terms. From my reading of the readings, it seems that light
is about spiritual qualities and connectedness with God and darkness
is their absence. Darkness is things like greed, ignorance,
materialism, hatred. And light is peace, justice, truth, love,
knowledge, and, of course,unity.
Baha'u'llah says:
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole
earth."
(Baha'u'llah: Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Page: 14)
So the light of a truly united God-oriented world is that which is "so
glorious no eye can visualize it."
When Baha'u'llah came in the 19th century He proclaimed the oneness of
humanity. He said that "the earth is but one country and mankind its
citizens." At that point in time that sounded absolutely ridiculous.
Humanity was divided geographaically and didn't even know one another
really. People lived primarily in small towns and villages where they
were born and died. They were also unable to get to know each other
because modes of transportation were slow and expensive, and people
had to work. They didn't have the internet or satelite tv. They
didn't even have the radio. Nobody thought that mankind was one.
Nobody thought that humanity could ever become united.
From that time onwards, the forces of unity started growing. Divine
Revelation fell like profuse rain from heaven, infusing all of
creation with a new spirit. Science created the means of intergrating
a divided world. And every really bad thing that happened in the
world brought about more and more world unity.
All those people from their tiny villages were sent out to regions of
the globe they had never been before, and people read about it in
newspapers. They began to get a sense of the world. And after WWI
was the very first attempt at global governance. The League of
Nations was formed. Of course outwardly it was a failure, but it was
wonderful because it was an attempt at fulfilling what Baha'u'llah
said must happen. The leaders of the world needed to come together to
make peace the object of their consultation. 'Abdu'l-Baha praised
Woodrow Wilson highly and called it the "dawn of the Most Great
Peace." Shoghi Effendi spoke of that in this passage:
"To her President, the immortal Woodrow Wilson, must be ascribed the
unique honor, among the statesmen of any nation, whether of the East
or of the West, of having voiced sentiments so akin to the principles
animating the Cause of Baha'u'llah, and of having more than any other
world leader, contributed to the creation of the League of Nations -
achievements which the pen of the Center of God's Covenant acclaimed
as signalizing the dawn of the Most Great Peace, whose sun, according
to that same pen, must needs arise as the direct consequence of the
enforcement of the laws of the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah."
(Shoghi Effendi: Citadel of Faith, Page: 36)
Of coruse, this was only the dawn of the Most Great Peace in terms of
process. It didn't mean we had reached it.
Then there was WWII. This is what Shoghi Effendi called
"distressingly dark." War raged everywhere on the planet. There was
no unity to be found. However, from humanity's being shocked and
horrified by this war, more unity came about. There was the United
Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and many NGO's
dedicated to the well-being of humanity. In the 20th century peace
movements sprang up, and the rights and equality of women was taken up
as ideal and brought into practice by many. People started to care
about the planet itself. Education increased among most people on
the planet. The means of travel made the earth easy to navigate. And
the forms of communication increased until now, here we are, having a
conversation, and I have no idea where in the world you live. I live
in England. The earth has shrunk to being like a global village. Now
we really can imagine ourselves as world citizens.
So the outward structure of unity has been raised. Every bad thing
that happens in the world just makes it stronger. When the economic
system crashed everyone started talking about global regulation. They
realized how what effects one part of the world effects all of it.
Ditto climate change.
Now comes the part of the spiritualization of the world of humanity
and Baha'is need to play a great role in that. And we are being
prepared to do it. That's what the four core activities are all
about. Us learning to administer to the spiritual needs of humanity.
And it's at the grass roots, and as more people go through the
sequence of courses, more people are raised up to help quicken
humanity. There is no end to it.
So do I think that the light will increase before the distant future.
Yes, of course. And in my world, there is a lot of light right now.
Because I am always reading in the Writings and sharing this with
others, and this is light upon light, and that light will steadily
grow in the world until it overwhelms the darkness of materialism,
because darkness cannot exist in the presence of light. It doesn't
destroy it. The darkness just turns to light.
Suzanne
mike3
wrote:
> Hi Mike-
> Yes, anything is possible but we have to make it happen. However, at
> this point I 'm wondering why bother speculating about all this for we
> have the Writings, the Covenant and now all we need to do is strive
> daily to acquire virtues by service to God and humanity.
> Seems quite simple to me, we believe, we then take the appropriate
> action that is revealed to us.
>
So then it doesn't preclude the possibility. That would make more
sense.
mike3
Thank you for the answer.
Suzanne
> Thank you for the answer.
Hi Mike,
Sorry I went on so long. I was actually paraphrasing points from "A
Century of Light" by the Universal House of Justice.
Suzanne
mike3
That's OK, I didn't have a problem with the length...