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How is Baha'i Different?

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compx2

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Nov 26, 2009, 10:06:44 AM11/26/09
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Me: "I see Baha'is going down the same path as every other religion,
and we will soon forget the bulk of the Baha'i teachings in favor of
those teachings which make us complacent, arrogant, silly, just like
all religions before us. "

A response (posted in the "Manifestations of God" thread):

The reason that the Baha'i Faith will never go the route of past
religions is because, for the first time in religious history, we have
a Covenant which makes clear whose interpretations are authoritiative
and whose are not.

Are you talking about the correct succession? Like from the Imams to
Siyyid Kazim Rashti to Mulla Husayn to the Bab to the Letters of the
Living to Baha'u'llah to 'Abdu'l-Baha to Shoghi Effendi to the House
of Justice?

If not, what issues of the Covenant do you think protect Baha'is from
emphasizing misunderstandings of, for example, the Covenant itself or
the meanings of words like "manifestation"?

What mechanism are you claiming will keep people from mistaking what
the Baha'i Faith is? We all see the Baha'i Faith due to the teachings
and actions of Baha'is. We all read and interpret for ourselves the
same Writings.

The instant example is that of the Manifestation of God. Baha'is seem
to view that expression as a single word, like the presidents or
chairmen or other office-holder. The truth is, the word
"manifestation" has an independent, specific referrent meaning, that
of the showing and demonstrating existence or behavior. Therefore, my
interpretation of the words Manifestation of God is very different
from how all other Baha'is I know view the expression. Who is right?
Who cares? The point is we are all able to reasonably read and make
our own decisions as to the meaning of such words and no one, not even
the House of Justice can tell us what anyone else meant writing those
words.

Another example: If Baha'is say we must follow the letter of the law
in the Aqdas but not the clear commands of Baha'u'llah to be
"generous" and live a Baha'i life, what protection is there for the
Baha'i Faith from misunderstanding its purpose?

Won't the Baha'i Faith become those arrogant people who have dowries,
avoid drugs and alcohol? If Baha'is believe following the Covenant
means following only those laws listed in the Iqan, and not, for
example, those commands listed in the Kitabi Ahd (or Book of the
Covenant), then what is to keep the Baha'i Faith from being that
arrogant and strange group who has strange behavioral laws, and not
those who have distinguished themselves by loving humanity, for unity
and accord, for love and justice?

Thanks for reading. --Kent

drgoplayer

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Nov 26, 2009, 11:57:00 AM11/26/09
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Hi Kent,

You ask how does the Covenant protect the unity of the Baha'i Faith?

No one now can force their interpretation of the meaning of the texts
on anyone else. We can study the writings of the Central Figures and
discuss the meaning but neither you nor I nor anyone else can
authoritatively state what it means. (Note that the Universal House
of Justice can authoritatively legislate as needed, i.e. tell us what
to
do but not what to think).

This point of interpretation is very important. All religions of the
past
have split again and again over interpretation or succession (which as
you note is also covered by the Covenant). When two people in a
congregation get into a fierce disagreement over some point of
theology
(such as exactly how many angels can sit on a pin head or whether God
is immanent or in-dwelling in creation or ...) they might eventually
divide the
group into two new sects.

Since the Baha'i Covenant states clearly that neither is authorized
to
interpret with "authority" the community can simply tell the two
idiots to
1) sit down and put a sock in it
2) take it out to the parking lot or best of all
3) keep it an amicable discussion since neither one knows everything.

As long as we remember this essential point, we can stay united
through
just about anything.

It means that none of us can say that someone else is absolutely wrong
(except when they claim that they are absolutely right).

Meanwhile the Universal House of Justice is gradually steering the
world-wide
Baha'i community to a more mature viewpoint.

Cheers,
Tom

compx2

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Nov 26, 2009, 3:49:28 PM11/26/09
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Hi Tom,

> You ask how does the Covenant protect the unity of the Baha'i Faith?

Not really. What I would like to know is how the Baha'i Faith will
keep from being known as the strange religion with all the strange
social rules from the Kitabi Aqdas.

Baha'i keep telling me that protection comes through the Covenant.

So more precisely, my question is how will the Covenant of Baha'u'llah
protect the Baha'i Faith from being known as the Faith of the
Baha'is. Instead the Faith of Baha'u'llah should be known as the
religion which is inspired by the One True God, know by the pure
inspirational and admirable actions and motives of those who recognize
God as Personified by Baha'u'llah.

The Religion of God was demonstrated and inspired in countless people
by Baha'u'llah and His successors regardless of the nominal religion
of the person inspired to such action and motives. People are
inspired by God in many ways, and most are not Baha'is. They are
members of the Religion of God regardless.

How will the Baha'i Faith be known as a Religion of God if it must be
known by its followers, and its followers generally don't recognize
that God can inspire even non-Baha'is? When its followers deny that
good is from God when that goodness inspired in a reasonable, socially
responsible atheist? When its followers deny that its Founder
commanded them to be generous, but recognize they must pay a dowry?
When its followers insist that a Manifestation of God must be a Person
and cannot be the inspiration for the betterment of all humanity?

Thanks for reading, and looking forward to all the good answers to
this important question. --Kent

> > Thanks for reading.  --Kent- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


compx2

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Nov 26, 2009, 3:49:28 PM11/26/09
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Hi Tom,

> You ask how does the Covenant protect the unity of the Baha'i Faith?

Not really. What I would like to know is how the Baha'i Faith will

Douglas McAdam

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Nov 26, 2009, 4:52:30 PM11/26/09
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On Nov 26, 2009, at 10:06 AM, compx2 wrote:

> Me: "I see Baha'is going down the same path as every other religion,
> and we will soon forget the bulk of the Baha'i teachings in favor of
> those teachings which make us complacent, arrogant, silly, just like
> all religions before us. "

How then can you explain the following quotes?
19 ...There is, though, a great difference between
this and previous Dispensations, for Bahá'u'lláh has written that
this
is "the Day which shall not be followed by night" ("God Passes By", p.

245). He has given us His Covenant which provides for a continuing
centre of divine guidance in the world. The Bahá'í Faith has not
lacked for ambitious men who would seize the reins of authority and
distort the Faith for their own ends, but in every case they have
broken themselves and dashed their hopes on the rock of the Covenant.

Covenant.rtf (3:15)


1047. The Guardianship—Acceptance of—Day that Will Not Be Followed
by
Night

"He feels that if ... ponders more deeply about the fundamentals of
Divine Revelation, she will also come to understand the Guardianship.

Once the mind and heart have grasped the fact that God guides men
through a Mouthpiece, a human being, a Prophet, infallible and
unerring, it is only a logical projection of this acceptance to also
accept the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardians. The Guardians
are the evidence of the maturity of mankind in the sense that at long

last men have progressed to the point of having one world, and of
needing one world [311] management for human affairs. In the spiritual

realm they have also reached the point where God could leave, in human

hands (i.e., the Guardians'), guided directly by the Bab and
Baha'u'llah, as the Master states in His Will, the affairs of His
Faith for this Dispensation. This is what is meant by 'this is the day

which will not be followed by the night'. In this Dispensation, divine

guidance flows on to us in this world after the Prophet's ascension,
through first the Master, and then the Guardians. If a person can
accept Baha'u'llah's function, it should not present any difficulty to

them to also accept what He has ordained a divinely-guided individual

in matters pertaining to His Faith."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
believer, November 25, 1948: Baha'i News, No. 232, p. 8, June 1950)


63 O Temple of Holiness! We, verily, have cleansed Thy breast

from the whisperings of the people and sanctified it from earthly
allusions, that the light of My beauty may appear therein and be
reflected in the mirrors of all the worlds. Thus have We singled Thee

out above all that hath been created in the heavens and the earth, and

above all that hath been decreed in the realms of revelation and
creation, and chosen Thee for Our own Self. This is but an evidence of

[34] the bounty which God hath vouchsafed unto Thee, a bounty which
shall last until the Day that hath no end in this contingent world. It

shall endure so long as God, the Supreme King, the Help in Peril, the

Mighty, the Wise, shall endure. For the Day of God is none other but
His own Self, Who hath appeared with the power of truth. This is the
Day that shall not be followed by night, nor shall it be bounded by
any praise, would that ye might understand!

Summons of Lord of Hosts (1:63, page: [34])

Douglas McAdam

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Nov 26, 2009, 4:52:30 PM11/26/09
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On Nov 26, 2009, at 10:06 AM, compx2 wrote:

> Me: "I see Baha'is going down the same path as every other religion,
> and we will soon forget the bulk of the Baha'i teachings in favor of
> those teachings which make us complacent, arrogant, silly, just like
> all religions before us. "

How then can you explain the following quotes?

Covenant.rtf (3:15)


>

Douglas McAdam

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Nov 26, 2009, 5:17:49 PM11/26/09
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On Nov 26, 2009, at 3:49 PM, compx2 wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
>> You ask how does the Covenant protect the unity of the Baha'i Faith?
>
> Not really. What I would like to know is how the Baha'i Faith will
> keep from being known as the strange religion with all the strange
> social rules from the Kitabi Aqdas.

As we grow in numbers and live the life, our behavior, the rules we

follow, etc. will not be seen as strange for they will be seen as
actually producing the desired love and unity in the world. Also I do

not know what you mean by strange rules in the KA. All the rules
appear to me to be perfectly logical and we can see the harmful
effects now in society by not following them. Although there may be
some that we may not yet truly understand logically.


>
> Baha'i keep telling me that protection comes through the Covenant.
>
> So more precisely, my question is how will the Covenant of Baha'u'llah
> protect the Baha'i Faith from being known as the Faith of the
> Baha'is. Instead the Faith of Baha'u'llah should be known as the
> religion which is inspired by the One True God, know by the pure
> inspirational and admirable actions and motives of those who recognize
> God as Personified by Baha'u'llah.

Again, it seems quite simple to me. First of all I do not know of any

Baha'i who says this is the Faith of Baha'is for all that I have met
say this is The Baha'i Faith.


>
> The Religion of God was demonstrated and inspired in countless people
> by Baha'u'llah and His successors regardless of the nominal religion
> of the person inspired to such action and motives. People are
> inspired by God in many ways, and most are not Baha'is. They are
> members of the Religion of God regardless.

Yes, and also there is a majority of people who profess to belong to
the Religion of God but who are not behaving as such. Who is it that

is causing all the problems in the world?

The Writings appear to say the only connection between God, His
Manifestation and Creation is Revelation so what happens if people are

unaware or who deny the current Revelation?
( a ) Know thou that, according to what thy Lord… hath decreed …the

favors vouchsafed by Him unto mankind have been, and will ever remain,

limitless in their range. First and foremost among these favors… is

the gift of understanding. His purpose in conferring such a gift is
none other except to enable His creature to know and recognize the one

true God…. This gift giveth man the power to discern the truth in all

things…. That which is preeminent above all other gifts, is
incorruptible in nature, and pertaineth to God Himself, is the gift of

Divine Revelation. Every bounty conferred by the Creator upon man, be

it material or spiritual, is subservient unto this. It is, in its
essence, and will ever so remain, the Bread which cometh down from
Heaven. It is God's supreme testimony, the clearest evidence of His
truth… the proof of His most loving providence (Baha'u'llah:
Gleanings, Pages: 194-195)

Are you saying the individuals can be inspired by God directly and
therefor do not need the Baha'i Writings?


>
> How will the Baha'i Faith be known as a Religion of God if it must be
> known by its followers, and its followers generally don't recognize
> that God can inspire even non-Baha'is? When its followers deny that
> good is from God when that goodness inspired in a reasonable, socially
> responsible atheist? When its followers deny that its Founder
> commanded them to be generous, but recognize they must pay a dowry?
> When its followers insist that a Manifestation of God must be a Person
> and cannot be the inspiration for the betterment of all humanity?


Again, why would we need a Revelation in Writing if all can be
inspired by God? Also if man is inspired to be good then why wouldn't

a good man recognize and accept Baha'u'llah and His Revelation. What

is the point of having a Manifestation of God in a human form if we
all can be inspired by God directly?

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the
recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the
Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom

of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty
hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone
astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth

everyone who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of
transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the
Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is
acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is

the Source of Divine inspiration." (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas,
page 19)

As to your seeing a contradiction between being generous and having to

contribute to a dowry I see that both are examples of spiritual
virtues. One is "generosit" and the other is "obedience".

compx2

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Nov 26, 2009, 10:05:07 PM11/26/09
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Hi Doug.

Now why would I explain a quote to you? We each have our own
understanding, and in my opinion, your understanding is the main
stream Baha'i understanding. But if I believed the Baha'i Faith were
as you believe it is I would not be a Baha'i.

I don't believe as you believe, and you ask me to explain a quote.
Perhaps you don't understand what you are asking. In the interest of
complying with your request, well, shall I take you first quote?

> 245). He has given us His Covenant which provides for a continuing
> centre of divine guidance in the world. The Bahá'í Faith has not
> lacked for ambitious men who would seize the reins of authority and
> distort the Faith for their own ends, but in every case they have
> broken themselves and dashed their hopes on the rock of the Covenant.
>
> Covenant.rtf (3:15)


How does this quote deal with any of my concerns? What information in
that quote can (or possibly could) deal with my question: "Won't the
Baha'i Faith just become those arrogant people who have dowries and
avoid drugs and alcohol?" How does all the Divine Guidance in the
world help if it is the Baha'is who are ignoring that guidance in
favor of paying inheritance taxes and avoiding all manner of
prohibitions?

Shall I read the rest of the quotes? Do they answer my question?
How?

--Kent

On Nov 26, 4:52 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

compx2

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Nov 26, 2009, 10:05:07 PM11/26/09
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Hi Doug.

Now why would I explain a quote to you? We each have our own
understanding, and in my opinion, your understanding is the main
stream Baha'i understanding. But if I believed the Baha'i Faith were
as you believe it is I would not be a Baha'i.

I don't believe as you believe, and you ask me to explain a quote.
Perhaps you don't understand what you are asking. In the interest of
complying with your request, well, shall I take you first quote?

> 245). He has given us His Covenant which provides for a continuing


> centre of divine guidance in the world. The Bahá'í Faith has not
> lacked for ambitious men who would seize the reins of authority and
> distort the Faith for their own ends, but in every case they have
> broken themselves and dashed their hopes on the rock of the Covenant.
>
> Covenant.rtf (3:15)

How does this quote deal with any of my concerns? What information in
that quote can (or possibly could) deal with my question: "Won't the
Baha'i Faith just become those arrogant people who have dowries and
avoid drugs and alcohol?" How does all the Divine Guidance in the
world help if it is the Baha'is who are ignoring that guidance in
favor of paying inheritance taxes and avoiding all manner of
prohibitions?

Shall I read the rest of the quotes? Do they answer my question?
How?

--Kent

On Nov 26, 4:52 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Douglas McAdam

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Nov 27, 2009, 11:48:54 AM11/27/09
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If you disagree with my understanding of a quote to the point whereby

you are criticizing me and other Baha'is who believe similarly then I

would hope you would explain your own interpretation and position in a ª

consultative manner. I gave you quotes that I felt back up my views
and I would expect you to do likewise, or anyone else for that
matter. I'm not interested in a debate, just consultation where we
set forth our full, frank and honest opinions, tempered with courtesy, ª

tact and wisdom, as the Writings advise is true consultation, or do
you disagree with that too?

How those quotes deal with your concerns is quite clear to me in that

if we Baha'is obey the Covenant we will gain even more understandings

of things, especially in what appears to be contradictions. It is our ª

lack of spirituality that causes us to have these contradictions.
Obedience is the key.

doug

>> is "the Day which shall not be followed by night" ("God Passes By", ª

>> accept Baha'u'llah's function, it should not present any difficulty ª

>> to
>
>>
>> them to also accept what He has ordained a divinely-guided individual
>>
>> in matters pertaining to His Faith."
>>
>> (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
>> believer, November 25, 1948: Baha'i News, No. 232, p. 8, June 1950)
>>
>> 63 O Temple of Holiness! We, verily, have cleansed Thy br
> east
>>
>> from the whisperings of the people and sanctified it from earthly
>> allusions, that the light of My beauty may appear therein and be
>> reflected in the mirrors of all the worlds. Thus have We singled Thee
>>
>> out above all that hath been created in the heavens and the earth,

>> and
>
>>
>> above all that hath been decreed in the realms of revelation and

>> creation, and chosen Thee for Our own Self. This is but an evidence ª

>> of
>
>>
>> [34] the bounty which God hath vouchsafed unto Thee, a bounty which

>> shall last until the Day that hath no end in this contingent world. ª

>> It
>
>>
>> shall endure so long as God, the Supreme King, the Help in Peril, the
>>
>> Mighty, the Wise, shall endure. For the Day of God is none other but
>> His own Self, Who hath appeared with the power of truth. This is the
>> Day that shall not be followed by night, nor shall it be bounded by
>> any praise, would that ye might understand!
>>
>> Summons of Lord of Hosts (1:63, page: [34])
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> A response (posted in the "Manifestations of God" thread):
>>
>>> The reason that the Baha'i Faith will never go the route of past
>>> religions is because, for the first time in religious history, we

>>> have
>>> a Covenant which makes clear whose interpretations are
>>> authoritiative
>>> and whose are not.
>>

>>> Are you talking about the correct succession? Like from the Imams ª

>>> to
>>> Siyyid Kazim Rashti to Mulla Husayn to the Bab to the Letters of the
>>> Living to Baha'u'llah to 'Abdu'l-Baha to Shoghi Effendi to the House
>>> of Justice?
>>
>>> If not, what issues of the Covenant do you think protect Baha'is
>>> from

>>> emphasizing misunderstandings of, for example, the Covenant itself ª

compx2

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Nov 27, 2009, 9:51:52 PM11/27/09
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Hi Doug.

I don't like your tone. I am not criticizing anyone. I disagree, but
hey, that makes for good conversation.

For almost ten years you and I, Doug, have had these discussions. I
don't believe a quote explains anything. Reason explains things.
Quotes help us see reason, help us see the rational truth, but unless
the quote makes sense, unless it is reasonable, it means nothing at
all. Reason is the important part of a quote.

You don't seem to understand that point regardless nearly a decade of
this banter. Or if you do understand the point you refuse to humor me
by allowing me to answer in my own way, with my own reason, with my
own viewpoint, my own interpretation of the reason of quotes.

Your viewpoint, succinctly put in these words which make very little
sense to me:

"...if we Baha'is obey the Covenant we will gain even more


understandings of things, especially in what appears to be

contradictions. It is our lack of spirituality that causes us to have
these contradictions."

Firstly the Covenant is a very different thing to you for you to be
able to say such a thing. Obeying means we will gain understanding?
What is the mechanism of understanding if it isn't study, learning,
seeking? How does obeying bring understanding? Isn's study,
experimentation, learning and striving a better way to gain
understanding than obedience?

Spirituality? I would like your definition of that word. Only then
will I be able to address who lacks it, and how the lack of it causes
contradictions.

And if you say that these quotes you cited yesterday mean what you
just said, well, no they don't.

Thanks for reading, however, and I truly hope we gain a little bit of
understanding of each others' viewpoints in these discussions.

Your friend, --Kent


On Nov 27, 11:48 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:


> If you disagree with my understanding of a quote to the point whereby  
>
> you are criticizing me and other Baha'is who believe similarly then I  
>
> would hope you would explain your own interpretation and position in a
  ª
>
> consultative manner.  I gave you quotes that I felt back up my views
 
> and I would expect you to do likewise, or anyone else for that  
> matter.  I'm not interested in a debate, just consultation where we  
> set forth our full, frank and honest opinions, tempered with courtesy,
  ª
>
> tact and wisdom, as the Writings advise is true consultation, or do  
> you disagree with that too?
>
> How those quotes deal with your concerns is quite clear to me in that  
>
> >

> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

drgoplayer

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Nov 28, 2009, 12:34:38 AM11/28/09
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Hi Kent,
Actually some things are not best understand through study, learning,
and seeking. One example would be 'the sound of one hand clapping'.

The structure of the benzene molecule apparently was another.

Intense study, reasoning, experimentation, meditation, etc. were
essential prerequisites for understanding the benzene molecular
structure but the actual solution apparently came through a dream.

Obedience and service can lead to making new mental connections
(gaining new understandings) if one is open to the possibility. Study
helps but may sometimes not be the essential element.

Cheers,
Tom

On Nov 27, 6:51 pm, compx2 <com...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Doug.
>
snipped


>
> Firstly the Covenant is a very different thing to you for you to be
> able to say such a thing.  Obeying means we will gain understanding?
> What is the mechanism of understanding if it isn't study, learning,
> seeking?  How does obeying bring understanding?  Isn's study,
> experimentation, learning and striving a better way to gain
> understanding than obedience?
>

> Your friend,  --Kent

Douglas McAdam

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Nov 28, 2009, 11:06:22 AM11/28/09
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On Nov 27, 2009, at 9:51 PM, compx2 wrote:

> Hi Doug.
>


> I don't like your tone. I am not criticizing anyone. I disagree, but
> hey, that makes for good conversation.

Kent-
I don't wish this to be a personal thing but in almost every email you

have written on the forum you have made some negative criticism of
Baha'is as if only your interpretation is correct. So I have to ask
you then to give us some quotes that back up your views. I offer
quotes for my own views and you criticize my views but do not offer
any back up that I can see.


>
> For almost ten years you and I, Doug, have had these discussions. I
> don't believe a quote explains anything. Reason explains things.
> Quotes help us see reason, help us see the rational truth, but unless
> the quote makes sense, unless it is reasonable, it means nothing at
> all. Reason is the important part of a quote.

Quotes to me explain a lot. One of the reasons I became a Baha'i was

because of how wonderfully the Writings explain things that had
bothered me for years. Sure we need to use our powers of reason to
understand these quotes but to me they also "feel right" a kind of
"just knowing" that I believe the Writings say come from the soul
being able to perceive Truth independent of all other senses.


>
> You don't seem to understand that point regardless nearly a decade of
> this banter. Or if you do understand the point you refuse to humor me
> by allowing me to answer in my own way, with my own reason, with my
> own viewpoint, my own interpretation of the reason of quotes.

All quotes makes sense to me Kent. What I have learned over my 40+
yrs as a Baha'i is that there are two viewpoints, i.e. our Personal
View which is the result of our upbringing, our old world conditioning

from input from many sources of limited understandings and mostly
materialisic; and the Overall View that comes from the harmony of
faith and reason and their output in the form of Science and Religion,

the two most potent forms of knowledge that shape and sustain society.


>
> Your viewpoint, succinctly put in these words which make very little
> sense to me:
>
> "...if we Baha'is obey the Covenant we will gain even more
> understandings of things, especially in what appears to be
> contradictions. It is our lack of spirituality that causes us to have
> these contradictions."
>
> Firstly the Covenant is a very different thing to you for you to be
> able to say such a thing. Obeying means we will gain understanding?
> What is the mechanism of understanding if it isn't study, learning,
> seeking? How does obeying bring understanding? Isn's study,
> experimentation, learning and striving a better way to gain
> understanding than obedience?

There are also quotes about what the Covenant is and how to apply it.

Consider the quotes related to what the Covenant is, how it works,
what power it has, how to apply it. That in itself is an education,
far too complex and comprehensive to show in an email. Consider that

we are supposed to use independent study. How can we be independent
if we are conditioned to be biased about certain things? And how can

we think independently if we have a long history of abuse, of medical

health problems, emotional problems, etc.? What about the injunction

in the Writings about " ...No object can be achieved without first
Knowledge, Volition and Action."? Of course we must use our powers of

reason but we also must accept a postulate, such as a quote from the
Writings, and then test it by action (living the life of the
Covenant). Reading the Writings and using our power of reason only
gives us some intellectual understanding which is limited and it also

gives us a new set of beliefs but what the Writings tell us is we need

to have faith and faith is defined in the Writings as "conscious
knowledge and righteous deeds" So we accept the Writings on a Belief

and then we use our Reason and then we take Action and that produces
true faith. Belief + Experience Conscious knowledge, i.e. true
faith.
There are two views of things, i.e. our Personal View and an Overall
View. The Personal View is the result of our being conditioned to
see, feel and act in certain ways from our upbringing, from all the
input, both good and bad, that come from our exposures to many
teachers and influences, many which are unrealistic or irrational.
The Overall View is that which is Revealed by God and what we Discover

and Experience by the use of our powers to formulate Science.
Religion and Science, when harmonized, produce the Overall View. It
is the Revelation of Baha'u'llah that has given us all truth, but it
is Revealed Knowledge whereas we must Discover and Experience it by
the use of our knowing and loving powers which are manifested in
degrees in our physical, human and spiritual levels of awareness.
This offers us Reality in Totality and an yet we also learn from this

that our knowledge is relative and evolutionary. Science and Religion

are relative knowledges of the Reality of things and only God is the
Absolute or Who has Absolute Knowledge.
Our knowing power of faith enables us to accept an Enlightener and
believe in His Revelation but then we must use our other powers of
senses and intellect to Experience what is revealed. There are only
three ways to learn, i.e. Revelation, Discovery and Experience.
Our knowing powers of faith, intuition, intellect and senses all must

be unified for us to create and maintain sciences and divine religion

that are in harmony. To be unified they must be directed to and by,
and also organized around one principle.

> Spirituality? I would like your definition of that word. Only then
> will I be able to address who lacks it, and how the lack of it causes
> contradictions.

There are two Existences, i.e. Material and Spiritual. Definitions of

the word spiritual may vary according to uses, like all words do. In

the case we are discussing the word refers to "coming closer to God"
by the acquisition of virtues, since that is our purpose in life. As

we acquire virtues we become more spiritual.


>
> And if you say that these quotes you cited yesterday mean what you
> just said, well, no they don't.

Yes, they do to me but obviously not to you but then again you don't
offer any quotes or reasoning, just an absolute statement.


>
> Thanks for reading, however, and I truly hope we gain a little bit of
> understanding of each others' viewpoints in these discussions.

The only way this can happen is to share our understanding of quote
and use the Baha'i principle of consultation and you know the steps of

consultation that we should follow. A full, frank and honest sharing

of opinions, tempered with courtesy, tact and wisdom. Unfortunately
far to many folks are conditioned to debate things with an either/or,

right/wrong, pro/con attitudes, a win at all costs type of discussion,

which is divisive. Many believe that consultation is only for problem

solving whose object is truth but yet the Writings are clear in that
its purpose is to attain love and unity from which will spring that
truth. If we focus soley on truth in a discussion it can easily lead

to disunity. So as you once said earlier we all have different views

of truth or something to that effect. I agree and yet we also must
find a way to achieve our overall purpose of love and unity. The
Covenant shows us how to do this. The Covenant is love, and without
it we would have no existence. All the forces of the universe are
subservient to the Covenant (paraphrase from a quote)

As you can see from the long post above it is not all that easy to
relate specifics to an Overall View because we ourselves are limited
and the Overall View is something we are striving to understand. And

yet in another way it all seems so simple in that we need to do what
the House of Justice said in its 1974 Message as follows -
"What they desperately need is to know how to live their

lives – they need to know who they are, to what purpose they exist,

and how they should act towards one another; and once they know the
answers to these questions they need to be helped to gradually apply
these answers to everyday behavior. It is to the solution of this
basic problem of mankind that the greater part of all our energy and
resources should be directed….” The Universal House of Justice from
a
letter dated November 19,1974

peace,

doug

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