Allahu Abha or Salaam alaikum?
khadooj
Muslim.
And that because I will cut my prayers to only three a day, instead of five.
All the other rules like no alcohol, is already in Islam, so what is it that
attracts a Muslim to be a Bahai? What are the benefits?
And also if Bahai was a prophet, why wouldn't he use his own language to
convey his message?
Like in greetings he uses the Arabic word. No other prophet conveyed a
message in another language except their own. Because Allah (subhanahu wa
ta3al) never sent a prophet to speak other than his own tongue. And the
Bahai greeting is Allahu Abha which is Arabic. I am surprised.
And it is like a Dhikr or a remembrance of attributes of Allah that Sufis
can do to praise Allah.
But for human relations, Islam and Judaism uses Salaam alaikum, which is
appropriate for getting into business transactions or human meetings.
Whereas Allahu Abha is like praying.
If anyone has any thoughts about this to clear this for me I'd appreciate
it.
Thanks.
john ludgate
Thanks for your thoughts. I have only been a Bahai for a little over a year
now and only speak English but let me give you my perspective. While the
obligatory daily prayers are indeed three, you are free to add to that as
you see fit and to go with as few as one. Readings of the holy verses which
were revealed in Arabic and Persian are required for morning and evening. It
would seem that it is best if the attractions of the Beloved Sun of Reality
would cause one to rise from his slumber during the dawn time before the
physical sun shows it's shiny face and pray and quietly await the bounty of
the Lord and read some revealed verses. If you are currently following the
Muslim prayer rituals, then you can ask Allah for some guidance. If you can
read the words of Baha'u'llah in His native tongue of Persian or Arabic, I
am very jealous and think that you are indeed a very lucky person. A reading
of some the words written in either Persian or Arabic by the Bab and
Baha'u'llah should tell you what you need to know. May Allah guide your
steps on the His straight path.
As for the greeting of "Allahu Abha", I believe that it illustrates that the
Glory of God is permeating all circumstances of life with a new energy as
this is the Day of the Lord promised in the Books of old and lighting up the
Abha kingdom which was inaugurated by Allah through Baha'u'llah and the Bab.
The Ba and the Ha somehow got united like the B and the E and we have the
Baha and the Abha and Beauty and Glory and the Greatest name and evidence of
the Lord of Names. One God, One Religion and One people on the Earth.
Salaam, love, aloha and best wishes from the south pacific,
john
Rick Boatright
If you were an observant Baha'i, you would recite the greatest
name 95 times each day, you would say the three obligatory
prayers, and you would read from the Baha'i scripture morning and
evening and meditate on what you have read. This means at least
six periods of worship daily, not the 5 required of Moslems. Baha'is
are allowed some laxity in when they schedule those observances,
which lends itself well to modern life where the demands of the
community sometimes make the scheduled salat difficult.
As to language, Baha'u'llah did convay his prophacy in his own
language, but unlike previous prophets, Baha'u'llah was a
cosmopolitan man, and a devout Moslem. Therefore, He revealed
writings in all the languages He spoke, there are revelations from
Him in Persian, which was His mother tounge, in Arabic, which He
also learned as an infant, and in Turkish.
Your statement that Allah never sent a prophet to speak other than
his own tounge is interesting, but how do you determine the
"tounge" of someone who learned THREE languages as an infant,
are they not ALL that persons "tounge?" Further, the contention
that Allah never sent a prophet to speak other than his own tounge
is interesting, in that I have to ask you what the source is for this, I
don't know of a hadith or a place in the Quran that says it.
I understand that you find "Allah-u-abha" an odd greeting. It _is_ a
lot like a Dhikr. One must consider that the exemplar that all
Baha'is attempt to emulate in the practice of our religion, is the
eldest son of Baha'u'llah. His name was Abbas, but he asked that
the Baha'is reffer to him as Abdu'l-Baha, the rank of Servant of
Baha, the role of Servant of Baha was his greated praise and the
Baha'is calling Allah-u-abha to each other in greating is an
acknowledgement of this placing of ourselves relative to Gods
glory.
Thank you for your interest and questions. It made me think.
Rick Boatright
Javan Barzakhi
> Now I feel that if I embrace the Bahai faith, I'll become just like a lazy
> Muslim.
Believe me it is very difficult to be a Baha'i. Be a Baha'i is a lot of hard
work. But Baha'i do that for the love of God and love of mankind.
> And that because I will cut my prayers to only three a day, instead of
five.
Well to be exact, Baha'i have say obligatory prayers once, twice or three
tiem a day. Each prayer a different. On top of that every Baha'i is asked to
say prayers and read the holy writings in the morning and at night. Al
Baha'i gathering start and end with prayers and there are many Baha'i
meetings and gathering. If you are to compare Baha'is end up praying more.
> All the other rules like no alcohol, is already in Islam, so what is it
that
> attracts a Muslim to be a Bahai? What are the benefits?
With the same token, the Jews and Christians at the time of the Prophet
Mohammad (PBUH), would claimed not stealing, not doing adultary and
recognising God are all laws of their religions what would be the benefit of
becoming a Muslim.
Baha'is beleive all religions are from God and all religious laws are from
God. So it is natural to find some similarities in the laws. But Baha'is
believe in progressive evolution of the mankind's spiritual state. If you
consider the mankind a student. The sutdent needs to progress to higher
grades to advance his/her education. Judisim, Christianity and Islam's main
purposes have been the recognition of the Al Might God. The purpose of the
Baha'i Faith is the unity of mankind.
> And also if Bahai was a prophet, why wouldn't he use his own language to
> convey his message?
Baha'u'llah's writings are in both Arabic and Persian. Arabic was the
language of the learnt, the religious leaders/students and scholars of the
time in Persian. Plus Arabic is know to be the most complete language in
the world. It is hard to be ambiguous in Arabic.
Regards,
Javan.
Suzanne Gerstner
> Now I feel that if I embrace the Bahai faith, I'll become just like a lazy
> Muslim.
>
> And that because I will cut my prayers to only three a day, instead of
five.
> All the other rules like no alcohol, is already in Islam, so what is it
that
> attracts a Muslim to be a Bahai?
Oh, goodness! Baha'is who are sincerely striving to do the will of God in
this day are anything but lazy! In Islam you have one Holy Book, the Holy
Qur'an! How many Muslims have actually read it? We have *many* Holy Books,
which you can see by visiting the website below:
http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/
Besides the obligatory prayers and other laws, which as you mention, are
similar to Islam, we are instructed by Baha'u'llah to "Immerse yourselves in
the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the
pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths." (Baha'u'llah: The
Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 85)
And we are told that we are not being faithful to the Covenant of God if we
do not recite the verses of God every morning and evening:
"Recite ye the verses of God every morn and eventide. Whoso faileth to
recite them hath not been faithful to the Covenant of God and His Testament,
and whoso turneth away from these holy verses in this Day is of those who
throughout eternity have turned away from God. Fear ye God, O My servants,
one and all."
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 73)
We are also told that it isn't enough to read the words of God, but we must
put these teachings into effect in our lives:
"The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he
whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his
life."
(Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 156)
Baha'is are striving, through the power of the word of God, to transform our
own lives and to affect a transformation in the lives of all mankind! This
is the work of heroes and saints, and not the work of lazy people!
You ask:
<<What are the benefits?>>
What do you suppose are the benefits of following the word of God for the
Day in which one lives? It's being in absolute harmony with His will and
faithful to God. If this truly is the Faith of God for this Day, the
renewal of "Islam", it's being where all the spirit and power of God is
being outpoured, and being quickened to new spiritual life, as the people
were in the early days of Islam! Think of the power of the words uttered by
Muhammad! He said to gather knowledge, and the people *did*! Because of
this fact they raised up a mighty civilization, the most advanced one in the
world at that time, and the effects of the Islamic civilization transformed
the west, and brought about the Renaissance! This is the power of the word
of God! But do you see that same power animating Muslim countries in this
day in the same way it once did? However, this same power *is* animating
this renewed Faith of God in this Day! Baha'is are seriously striving to do
whatever He has said for us to do!
>
> And also if Bahai was a prophet, why wouldn't he use his own language to
> convey his message?
It was a great gift to the Islamic world that 80% of the Writings of God in
this Day have been revealed in the Arabic language -- the language of the
Revelation of Muhammad (pbuh), when both the Bab and Baha'u'llah lived in a
Persian society and never learned Arabic to such a high degree in school (if
they did at all). This is something worth pondering in the same way it is
worth pondering how Muhammad, an illiterate man, could reveal a Book like
the Holy Qur'an. "God doeth what He willeth."
> But for human relations, Islam and Judaism uses Salaam alaikum, which is
> appropriate for getting into business transactions or human meetings.
> Whereas Allahu Abha is like praying.
As 'Abdu'l-Baha says:
"There is nothing sweeter in the world of existence than prayer. Man must
live in a constant state of prayer..."
He also says that work done in the spirit of service to humanity is, in this
Day, accounted as worship of God.
This is a new Day, and a new relationship between God and His servants is
now possible! It is not motivated by the fear of hell or the hope of
reward, but it is purely motivated out of love! At least this is the goal,
according to His Holiness, the Bab!
Kindest regards,
Suzanne
Amy Lugsch
One other aspect to keep in mind is that Baha'u'llah has given us the
principal that 'work' when done in a spirit of service is also worship, so
it is quite possible to be in some form of worship during every waking hour.
-Loving Greetings, Amy
"Rick Boatright" <boat...@cjnetworks.com> wrote in message
news:abgfb5$dk4$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> Well, no.
>
> If you were an observant Baha'i, you would recite the greatest
> name 95 times each day, you would say the three obligatory
> prayers, and you would read from the Baha'i scripture morning and
> evening and meditate on what you have read. This means at least
> six periods of worship daily, not the 5 required of Moslems. Baha'is
> are allowed some laxity in when they schedule those observances,
> which lends itself well to modern life where the demands of the
> community sometimes make the scheduled salat difficult.
<<SNIP>>
khadooj
Suzanne Gerstner <suzanne....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:jrRC8.155796>
> Oh, goodness! Baha'is who are sincerely striving to do the will of God in
> this day are anything but lazy! In Islam you have one Holy Book, the Holy
> Qur'an! How many Muslims have actually read it? We have *many* Holy
Books,
Im surprised you said "how many Muslims have read it?" In Morocco, every
Mosque, they read the Qur'an
morning and evening. And at the end of the month, the whole Quran is read.
And during Ramadan, the whole Quran is recited by the whole Muslim nations,
I dont think the Baha'i book(s) can match that.
We have many sufi books, like Iben Arabi's, or Rumi's to name famous ones.
these books are full of wisdom
and they dont say we are prophets and these books are from god. And yet when
you read them, the books of Bahai cannot match up to them.
> "The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he
> whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his
> life."
> (Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 156)
> Suzanne
Fewness and abundance in deeds made me count the prostrations or (sajdas) of
Muslims, I found Muslims
do at least thirty four sajdas daily. And thats really alot campared to the
Bahai.
And the 34 are the minimum without counting the voluntary Salaat that
Muslims do before or after the obligetary prayers.
john haukness
so bold as to just throw in my curve ball to this question.
Sure, Muslims might think the Baha'is are lazy, that's putting it mild,
Christians, Jew's, Buddhists, Zoriastrian's and Athiests might think of a
whole list of annoyances that they can attribute to Baha'is.
My curve ball is simply this, Bahaullah was ignored by most people in His
lifetime. Some even stoned Him, others jailed Him, many thought of killing
Him. You know the same rejection happened to Moses, Christ and Muhammad too.
The curve ball is, if Muhammad returned what do you think that would look
like. An exact copy of whose version of Islam? Or could it look more like
Hinduism. I mean where is the grade book that say's Muslim's would be more
open to Muhammad's return than secular people?
But really, how can one person, even a Prophet meet everyone's preconceived
expectations?
The Glory of God's very first words speak to your and everyone elses
traditions in His answer as to why Muslims and athiests and Christians have
become Baha'i: "No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true
understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on
earth."
Muhammad and Christ both stated, God questions humans, it's futility for
humans to question God.
All the best. In His service, john haukness, MEd.
----- Original Message ----- > were in the early days of Islam! Think of
Suzanne Gerstner
My remarks are based on the fact that I was a counsellor for three years in
a refugee centre where all my clients were Muslims and many had never read
the Holy Qur'an and didn't know what it said. Many of them were illiterate,
and so couldn't have read it if they wanted to, but others were educated
people who had been through the university, and still they were more Muslim
in name and tradition than in practice. I know there are also some very
learned Muslim scholars who know the Qur'an inside out, and I don't mean to
deny this fact, and I know that my own experiences are just that -- my
experiences. They don't mean that they are universally true of all Muslims.
In Morocco, every
> Mosque, they read the Qur'an
> morning and evening. And at the end of the month, the whole Quran is read.
> And during Ramadan, the whole Quran is recited by the whole Muslim
nations,
> I dont think the Baha'i book(s) can match that.
Are we in a contest?
> We have many sufi books, like Iben Arabi's, or Rumi's to name famous ones.
> these books are full of wisdom
> and they dont say we are prophets and these books are from god. And yet
when
> you read them, the books of Bahai cannot match up to them.
We all have our own opinions. My own belief is that the Baha'i Writings are
the word of God, as the Holy Qur'an is, and there is nothing in the world
that can compare to that!
> Fewness and abundance in deeds made me count the prostrations or (sajdas)
of
> Muslims, I found Muslims
> do at least thirty four sajdas daily. And thats really alot campared to
the
> Bahai.
> And the 34 are the minimum without counting the voluntary Salaat that
> Muslims do before or after the obligetary prayers.
I have read an Islamic tradition which says: "One hour's reflection is
preferable to seventy years of pious worship".
My friend, Baha'is are forbidden to dispute with others. We believe in the
authenticity and divinity of the Holy Qur'an, and in Muhammad (pbuh). I
was only answering your inquiries with my own thoughts and experiences. I
did not mean to offend, and I apologize if I did.
Peace,
Suzanne
khadooj
> > Im surprised you said "how many Muslims have read it?"
>
> My remarks are based on the fact that I was a counsellor for three years
in
> a refugee centre where all my clients were Muslims and many had never read
> the Holy Qur'an and didn't know what it said. Many of them were illiterat
I guess you can't blame theme for not knowing, religion is for everyone even
the illitrat ,how many illitrat Bahai's are there ?
but i can telle you the power of attraction
Islam has on people makes it the fastest growing religion
> Are we in a contest?
yes there is a contest about goodness , try to show me that Baha'i faith is
better than Islam.
Like my mecanic showed me that Toyota was better than the Ford i was
driving...
> We all have our own opinions. My own belief is that the Baha'i Writings
are
> the word of God, as the Holy Qur'an is, and there is nothing in the world
> that can compare to that!
You can't have it both way, because the Qur'an is the last revelation and it
does not
say that after this there would be another scripture... Unless you know some
verses
that say there would be another ????? .All Muslims know that Mohammed is
the last Prophet.
> I have read an Islamic tradition which says: "One hour's reflection is
> preferable to seventy years of pious worship".
Well it does not say "pious"because piety comes after reflecting on the
divine.
That tradition was a warning to those who
worship with out reflection, like robot....
Mohammad (3alayhe 'salaam ) used to worship all night until his feet were
swollen , when he was asked about it, he said should i not be a thankful
servant ??
> > My friend, Baha'is are forbidden to dispute with others. We believe in
the
> authenticity and divinity of the Holy Qur'an, and in Muhammad (pbuh).
What does the word "dispute" mean to you ?!!! I'm only giving you a fact
about Islam
that your religion claims to accept !!! If you are bahai then you too accept
this fact of Islam: there is no other prophets and scriptures after islam.
You are using the excuse "I can't dispute" to avoid
admitting that there is a HUGE problem here.
The independent investigation of truth should be your guide.
I
> was only answering your inquiries with my own thoughts and experiences. I
> did not mean to offend, and I apologize if I did.
Thank you for your good manners.
S.G. Cawe
*******************************************************************
Now I feel that if I embrace the Bahai faith, I'll become just like a lazy
Muslim.
************************************************************************
I know the feeling ... when I do my Long Obligatory Prayer, with all those
genuflections, I feel like a Muslim without the beard!
************************************************************************
And that because I will cut my prayers to only three a day, instead of
five.
All the other rules like no alcohol, is already in Islam, so what is it
that
attracts a Muslim to be a Bahai? What are the benefits?
************************************************************************
Ok, this sounds more serious. For you, I would recommend the Book of
Certitude, "Kitab-i-Iqan" in which Baha'u'llah answers your query.
Incidentally, in my country, the first converts came from the Muslim
community ... interesting story, that, in itself. As a matter of fact, the
first Baha'is came from the Muslim world. Thanks guys! So, there! Plenty to
attract a Muslim to Baha'u'llah.
Not only would you cut your prayers from five to three, you'd have to be
satisfied with one wife! And treat her as your EQUAL! Don't run away - And
if you die there won't be 70 virgins for your amusement in heaven either!
It gets worse ... heaven itself won't be what you thought it was. And ....
************************************************************************
And also if Bahai was a prophet, why wouldn't he use his own language to
convey his message?
************************************************************************
He is the Unconstrained. He doeth what He willeth. In His own Words:
"He doeth what He pleaseth. He chooseth, and none may question His choice.
Whatsoever He, the Well-Beloved, ordaineth, the same is, verily, beloved.
To this He Who is the Lord of all creation beareth Me witness. Whoso hath
inhaled the sweet fragrance of the All-Merciful, and recognized the Source
of this utterance, will welcome with his own eyes the shafts of the enemy,
that he may establish the truth of the laws of God amongst men. Well is it
with him that hath turned thereunto, and apprehended the meaning of His
decisive decree.
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Pages: 21-22)
O Shaykh! Every time God the True One - exalted be His glory - revealed
Himself in the person of His Manifestation, He came unto men with the
standard of "He doeth what He willeth, and ordaineth what He pleaseth."
None hath the right to ask why or wherefore, and he that doth so, hath
indeed turned aside from God, the Lord of Lords. In the days of every
Manifestation these things appear and are evident.
(Baha'u'llah: Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Page: 67)
The spirit that animateth the human heart is the knowledge of God, and its
truest adorning is the recognition of the truth that "He doeth whatsoever
He willeth, and ordaineth that which He pleaseth." Its raiment is the fear
of God, and its perfection steadfastness in His Faith. Thus God
instructeth whosoever seeketh Him. He, verily, loveth the one that turneth
towards Him. There is none other God but Him, the Forgiving, the Most
Bountiful. All praise be to God, the Lord of all worlds.
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 291)"
But Khadooj, surely you should be over the moon you can access His Word
directly and do not have to rely upon a translation - with all the
attendant problems! I just can't believe it ... moaning about Him choosing
your language for Revelation ... I'd give an arm and a leg to have the
direct access that you have!
In another vein, Khadooj, in Islam there are traditions and scripture that
you are supposed to use to see if a claimant is genuine. Shouldn't you use
those, instead?
************************************************************************
Like in greetings he uses the Arabic word. No other prophet conveyed a
message in another language except their own. Because Allah (subhanahu wa
ta3al) never sent a prophet to speak other than his own tongue. And the
Bahai greeting is Allahu Abha which is Arabic. I am surprised.
And it is like a Dhikr or a remembrance of attributes of Allah that Sufis
can do to praise Allah.
But for human relations, Islam and Judaism uses Salaam alaikum, which is
appropriate for getting into business transactions or human meetings.
Whereas Allahu Abha is like praying.
************************************************************************
Saying, 'Allah'u'Abha' took a bit of getting used to, but now it's no big
deal. If we simply did the things that the Muslims do, then your first
question would be pertinent, I think. And that's just the frill on the
"outer garment" of religion! 'Abdu'l-Baha has written lots on the
evolutionary aspects of religion. Give Him a bash!
************************************************************************
If anyone has any thoughts about this to clear this for me I'd appreciate
it.
Thanks.
************************************************************************
No sweat!
Best regards
Sizwe Cawe.
cbre...@northlink.com
>All the other rules like no alcohol, is already in Islam, so
> what is it that attracts a Muslim to be a Bahai? What are the
> benefits?
The goal of the Baha'i Faith is the same as the goal of Islam -- to
carry forward an ever advancing civilization. The teachings of the
Baha'u'llah will take civilization to its next and final stage of
development--the establishment of a world embracing Order, a
world civilization founded on the Law of God. It will be the
achievement of God's ultimate plan for this planet--the coming of
His Kingdom, that state in which His will is done on "earth as it is in
heaven."
The Baha'i Faith is the priceless, golden opportunity to be part of
this great enterprise. All who serve this great Cause will win the
good pleasure of God and those who shed blood for its sake will
receive oceans of recompense.
"Say: O ye lovers of the One true God! Strive, that ye may truly
recognize and know Him, and observe befittingly His precepts.
This is a Revelation, under which, if a man shed for its sake one
drop of blood, myriads of oceans will be his recompense. Take
heed, O friends, that ye forfeit not so inestimable a benefit, or
disregard its transcendent station. Consider the multitude of lives
that have been, and are still being, sacrificed in a world deluded by
a mere phantom which the vain imaginations of its peoples have
conceived. Render thanks unto God, inasmuch as ye have attained
unto your heart's Desire, and been united to Him Who is the
Promise of all nations. Guard ye, with the aid of the one true
God exalted be His glory the integrity of the station which ye have
attained, and cleave to that which shall promote His Cause. He,
verily, enjoineth on you what is right and conducive to the exaltation
of man's station. Glorified be the All Merciful, the Revealer of this
wondrous Tablet." Gleaning from the Writings of Baha'u'llah pp. 5-6
"This is the Day in which God's most excellent favors have been
poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath
been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the
peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect
unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care
and loving kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will,
in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to
the promotion of their best interests. . .
"Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be
graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight.
Soon will the present day order be rolled up, and a new one spread
out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the
Knower of things unseen." Gleaning from the Writings of Baha'u'llah
pp. 6-7
Carl Brehmer
Matt Menge
> Suzanne Gerstner <suzanne....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:jrRC8.155796>
>
> > Oh, goodness! Baha'is who are sincerely striving to do the will of God in
> > this day are anything but lazy! In Islam you have one Holy Book, the Holy
> > Qur'an! How many Muslims have actually read it? We have *many* Holy
> Books,
>
> Im surprised you said "how many Muslims have read it?" In Morocco, every
> Mosque, they read the Qur'an
> morning and evening. And at the end of the month, the whole Quran is read.
> And during Ramadan, the whole Quran is recited by the whole Muslim nations,
So Morocco has this going for it. That country also has a great
number of problems.
> I dont think the Baha'i book(s) can match that.
> We have many sufi books, like Iben Arabi's, or Rumi's to name famous ones.
> these books are full of wisdom
> and they dont say we are prophets and these books are from god. And yet when
> you read them, the books of Bahai cannot match up to them.
This strikes me as being largely a matter a taste. At the risk of
being argumentative I would say that my tastes are quite different
than yours!
>
>
> > "The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he
> > whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his
> > life."
> > (Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 156)
> > Suzanne
>
> Fewness and abundance in deeds made me count the prostrations or (sajdas) of
> Muslims, I found Muslims
> do at least thirty four sajdas daily. And thats really alot campared to the
> Bahai.
> And the 34 are the minimum without counting the voluntary Salaat that
> Muslims do before or after the obligetary prayers.
In the Kitab-i-Aqdas it is stated that it is better to read a single
verse with joy and radiance than to read all the holy books with
lassitude.
My impression of the Baha'i scriptures is that it is a kind of
single-minded theophany. That is to say, it is based on the concept
of all knowledge leading to God. Take for example this passage:
"Canst thou discover any one but Me, O Pen, in this Day? What hath
become of the creation and the manifestations thereof? What of the
names and their kingdom? Whither are gone all created things, whether
seen or unseen? What of the secrets of the universe and its
revelations? Lo, the entire creation hath passed away! Nothing
remaineth except My Face, the Ever-Abiding, the Resplendent, the
All-Glorious."
This is one of the key paradigms in Baha'i scripture (and believe me,
I have studied it quite carefully), that all knowledge and experience
whether sleeping or waking, whether intense (as in sajdas) or light
and capricious, whether intellectual or of the senses, leads to God.
In this sense it is far more God-centered than the Qur'an.
Best Regards,
Matt
Robin Baylor or Fred Capp
in response to
>Suzanne Gerstner <suzanne....@ntlworld.com>
>news:abrfhs$i1a$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>> > Im surprised you said "how many Muslims have read it?"
>>
>in
>> a refugee centre where all my clients were Muslims and many had never read
>> the Holy Qur'an and didn't know what it said. Many of them were illiterat
>
>I guess you can't blame theme for not knowing, religion is for everyone even
>the illitrat ,how many illitrat Bahai's are there ?
>but i can telle you the power of attraction
>Islam has on people makes it the fastest growing religion
I fully intended to stay out of this discussion but I feel compelled
to make an input here:
From all of the statistics that I have seen, & I've seen many, there
are very few creeds extant in the world today who cannot lay claim to
being "the fastest growing religion" in one way or another. I've
always claimed, & have proven to my satisfaction, that with the
appropriate juggling of statistics I could prove that Switzerland is
as big as Canada.
Having stepped in now:
As for the attractive power of the Baha'i Faith vis-a-vis Islam, I
don't sense that is now, or ever should be a "contest", let God,
blessed be His true believers, attract hearts to wherever He deems
best.
As for Illiterate Baha'is; near as I can discern, illiteracy is
virtually nonexistent in second & later generations of believers.
This is of course, made more difficult in those countries (primarily
Moslem) wherein Baha'is are (un)officially denied an education, but
our Faith decrees that we at least make the attempt.
&, if we can only educate 1 child, that it be the daughter so that
she may be in a place to educate the next generation.
> > Are we in a contest?
>
>yes there is a contest about goodness , try to show me that Baha'i faith is
>better than Islam.
>Like my mecanic showed me that Toyota was better than the Ford i was
>driving...
I'll agree about the Toyota, though personally I prefer Honda, but
from what I've experienced there are more Baha'is who are "ex-"
Moslem than any other specific religious background. I haven't seen
any numbers, just the people.
'Abdu'l-Baha did tell us to "Vie with one another" in matters of
morality & virtue. Sadly, what we here in the West see coming out of
Islam right now are the likes of Bin-Laden & the "Suicide bombers"
(which I keep trying to find ANY justification for in the Qu'ran).
Those of us on this group know that such peoples are on the ragged
fringe of the dispossessed and conservative factions which are to be
found in any community. However, far and away too many non-Moslems
only see that infinitesimally minute faction as being what Islam is.
You, as a Faith community, have a lot of work ahead of you if you
intend to be "good" enough to regain Islam its good name & proper
reputation in my country.
I hope that you can do it. We are helping as much as is possible.
> > We all have our own opinions. My own belief is that the Baha'i Writings
>are
>> the word of God, as the Holy Qur'an is, and there is nothing in the world
>> that can compare to that!
>
>You can't have it both way, because the Qur'an is the last revelation and it
>does not
>say that after this there would be another scripture... Unless you know some
>verses
>that say there would be another ????? .All Muslims know that Mohammed is
>the last Prophet.
What is all this, then, that I keep reading about the "Promised Qa'im"?
BTW: Baha'u'llah discusses this very issue in the Kitab-i-Iqan,
versions of which are available on-line in many languages, including
(I understand) the original.
> > I have read an Islamic tradition which says: "One hour's reflection is
>> preferable to seventy years of pious worship".
>
>Well it does not say "pious"because piety comes after reflecting on the
>divine.
>That tradition was a warning to those who worship with out
>reflection, like robot....
>Mohammad (3alayhe 'salaam ) used to worship all night until his feet were
>swollen , when he was asked about it, he said should i not be a thankful
>servant ??
A good point & one that you should consider more deeply rather than
just reacting with. Nice story about His Holiness Muhammad (blessings
to all of His followers), but it leads me to ask: are you, then, that
pious? I know that I, unfortunately, am not.
> > > My friend, Baha'is are forbidden to dispute with others. We believe in
>the
>> authenticity and divinity of the Holy Qur'an, and in Muhammad (pbuh).
>
>What does the word "dispute" mean to you ?!!! I'm only giving you a fact
>about Islam
>that your religion claims to accept !!! If you are bahai then you too accept
>this fact of Islam: there is no other prophets and scriptures after islam.
>You are using the excuse "I can't dispute" to avoid
>admitting that there is a HUGE problem here.
>The independent investigation of truth should be your guide.
I don't know how Suzanne will respond to your query, but to me a
dispute is a form of argument wherein the facts are veiled by the
concomitant emotions. As you are only giving the facts about Islam
(even though filtered through your own experience) so Suzanne has
only given you facts about Baha'i (filtered through her own
experience). I've just tried to give facts irrespective of source
(filtered, of course, through my experience).
The only problem that I see is one of perspective. I recommend that
you use the concept of "independent of Truth" yourself & read just
what His Holiness Baha'u'llah, & His appointed Successor
'Abdu'l-Baha, has to say about your concerns. When you start quoting
those writings then I'll know that you really are sincere in your
quest.
> I
>> was only answering your inquiries with my own thoughts and experiences. I
> > did not mean to offend, and I apologize if I did.
>
>Thank you for your good manners.
& thank you, I trust that I have not inadvertently managed to offend also.
--
Fredrick B. Capp
If communication were a strong point in this world,
Wal-mart would be selling maypoles by the million
& violence would be studied by professors as a quaint
historical conceit.
Thomas K. Dye
john ludgate
I would like to give praise and express my appreciation to each of you for
your kindly and cogent words on this topic. As a believer in the unity
evidenced in diversity this is a good symphony. I share the Bahai
perspective that Baha'u'llah is the Lord of our age (it was the words of the
Baha Beauty that lighted my way back to the Lord). I have read some talk of
an Imam that the Muslims were awaiting the return of but I really know next
to nothing about that, perhaps Khadooj could shed some light. In any case,
one should be able to smell the fragrance of sincerity or the odor of a
stirrer of mischief in the wilds of remoteness and I for one enjoy the
fragrance of each your words and feel that the honest independent
investigation of truth can lead nowhere except to the Source of all truth.
May the Lord of us all guide us on the right path to the Ancient of Days who
has dominion over us all knows our most intimate thoughts and feelings.
Loving kindness from pago,
john
On 5/15/02 2:17 AM, "khadooj" <kha...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> Suzanne Gerstner <suzanne....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:abrfhs$i1a$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>>> Im surprised you said "how many Muslims have read it?"
>>
>> My remarks are based on the fact that I was a counsellor for three years
> in
>> a refugee centre where all my clients were Muslims and many had never read
>> the Holy Qur'an and didn't know what it said. Many of them were illiterat
>
> I guess you can't blame theme for not knowing, religion is for everyone even
> the illitrat ,how many illitrat Bahai's are there ?
> but i can telle you the power of attraction
> Islam has on people makes it the fastest growing religion
>
>
>
>
>> Are we in a contest?
>
> yes there is a contest about goodness , try to show me that Baha'i faith is
> better than Islam.
> Like my mecanic showed me that Toyota was better than the Ford i was
> driving...
>
>
>
>
>
>> We all have our own opinions. My own belief is that the Baha'i Writings
> are
>> the word of God, as the Holy Qur'an is, and there is nothing in the world
>> that can compare to that!
>
> You can't have it both way, because the Qur'an is the last revelation and it
> does not
> say that after this there would be another scripture... Unless you know some
> verses
> that say there would be another ????? .All Muslims know that Mohammed is
> the last Prophet.
>
>
>
>
>
>> I have read an Islamic tradition which says: "One hour's reflection is
>> preferable to seventy years of pious worship".
>
> Well it does not say "pious"because piety comes after reflecting on the
> divine.
> That tradition was a warning to those who
> worship with out reflection, like robot....
> Mohammad (3alayhe 'salaam ) used to worship all night until his feet were
> swollen , when he was asked about it, he said should i not be a thankful
> servant ??
>
>
>
>
>>> My friend, Baha'is are forbidden to dispute with others. We believe in
> the
>> authenticity and divinity of the Holy Qur'an, and in Muhammad (pbuh).
>
> What does the word "dispute" mean to you ?!!! I'm only giving you a fact
> about Islam
> that your religion claims to accept !!! If you are bahai then you too accept
> this fact of Islam: there is no other prophets and scriptures after islam.
> You are using the excuse "I can't dispute" to avoid
> admitting that there is a HUGE problem here.
> The independent investigation of truth should be your guide.
>
>
>
> I
Bruce D Limber
>i can telle you the power of attraction Islam has on people makes it the
fastest growing religion
Overall, perhaps, but because it's in literally every country on earth
(and therefore the second most widespread religion, immediately after
Christianity), the Baha'i Faith is recognized [by, for example, the World
Christian Encyclopedia--clearly not a Baha'i source!] to be the
fastest-growing religion among those already established in over 100
countries (which Islam is not).
The numbers are:
Christianity 140,000 localitites
Baha'i Faith 110,000 localities
each other religion 90,000 localities or fewer.
Best! :-)
Bruce
Suzanne Gerstner
> yes there is a contest about goodness , try to show me that Baha'i faith
is
> better than Islam.
My friend, I believe that the Baha'i Faith *is* Islam! It is the religion
of submission to Allah renewed for this Day, the Day of God. Baha'u'llah
says: "This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in
the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath
refused to seek it--verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His
creatures."
> You can't have it both way, because the Qur'an is the last revelation and
it
> does not
> say that after this there would be another scripture... Unless you know
some
> verses
> that say there would be another ????? .All Muslims know that Mohammed is
> the last Prophet.
It does not say in the Holy Qur'an that it is the last Revelation from God.
It says that Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets. It is an interpretation
that the term "Seal of the Prophets" means there would never be another
revelation from God. The word "Seal" (kha'tam in Arabic), has been
interpreted to mean the: "Last", "Final", "Ornament" (something to adorn
with), "Ring", "Seal" (as in a stamp sealing closed a document), "Seal"
(as in seal of authority, officiating a document), and other meanings along
similar lines of interpretation. Baha'is believe that all such meanings are
valid and true.
But who is it who can interpret authoritatively the verses of God? Is it
the clergy? Is it the people themselves? Or is it only Allah? According the
Holy Qur'an, it is only Allah who has that authority:
"He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive,
they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for
those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which
is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own)
interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those
who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our
Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. " Qur'an 3:7
This is just one verse but there are several more which say it is only Allah
who can interpet the meanings of His words.
So, if Baha'u'llah truly is the Mouthpiece of Allah, then only His
interpretation would be authoritative and true. Baha'u'llah speaks often
about the Seal of the Prophets. He often calls Muhammd (pbuh) that title
when speaking of Him. Muhammad *is* the Seal of the prophets. He is the
final one in the age of prophecy, the age which started with Adam and
finished with Muhammad. With the Bab comes the dawn of the age of
fulfillment. We are in a new age.
Baha'u'llah denies the validity of this concept of finality both in relation
to past Dispensations and to His own. With regard to Muslims, He wrote in
the Kitab-i-Iqan that the "people of the Qur'an ... have allowed the words
`Seal of the Prophets' to veil their eyes", "to obscure their understanding,
and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties". He affirms
that "this theme hath ... been a sore test unto all mankind", and laments
the fate of "those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved in Him
Who is their true Revealer". The Bab refers to this same theme when He
warns: "Let not names shut you out as by a veil from Him Who is their Lord,
even the name Prophet, for such a name is but a creation of His utterance."
As to verses saying there would be another Messenger from Allah, verse 7:35
seems to be clear about the coming of Messengers. The Arabic verb "ya'
tiyenna" clearly conveys future continuation :
"O children of Adam! When Messengers come (ya' tiyenna) to you from among
you, who convey my verses, then those who take heed and amend will have
neither fear nor regret. " Qur'an 7:35
another translation:
[7:35] : "O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among
yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good
works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief."
(It is also interesting that the verse right before it [7:34] tells us that
for each nation, there is a set term.)
There is so much to say, I would overwhelm you if I tried to address it all
in this posting. If you have more questions, or would like further quotes
from the Qur'an or the Baha'i Writings on any of your questions, please
don't hestitate to write.
Peace,
Suzanne
Matt Menge
> Suzanne Gerstner <suzanne....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:abrfhs$i1a$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> > > Im surprised you said "how many Muslims have read it?"
> >
> > My remarks are based on the fact that I was a counsellor for three years
> in
> > a refugee centre where all my clients were Muslims and many had never read
> > the Holy Qur'an and didn't know what it said. Many of them were illiterat
>
> I guess you can't blame theme for not knowing, religion is for everyone even
> the illitrat ,how many illitrat Bahai's are there ?
Not very many. Even those with low IQ's do not appear to be
illiterate.
> but i can telle you the power of attraction
> Islam has on people makes it the fastest growing religion
Well good for them. To be honest they haven't made a good showing.
Islam has been around some 1400 years or so and there are still more
Roman Catholics than Muslims, and Roman Catholicism is only a single
denomination of Christianity.
I would have expected Islam to outdo Christianity by leaps and bounds,
but it really only seems to be a slight improvement. And many of my
Christian friends would contest even that.
>
>
>
>
> > Are we in a contest?
>
> yes there is a contest about goodness , try to show me that Baha'i faith is
> better than Islam.
> Like my mecanic showed me that Toyota was better than the Ford i was
> driving...
Well, I can tell you that Baha'is are constantly winning all kinds of
awards. We are a spiritual religion that can compete and prosper in a
materialistic society. Even the twelve principles of the Baha'i
Faith, which would seem like an obvious thing to imitate (and has in
fact been imitated) have never been carried out to the extent they
have in the Baha'i Faith.
>
>
>
>
>
> > We all have our own opinions. My own belief is that the Baha'i Writings
> are
> > the word of God, as the Holy Qur'an is, and there is nothing in the world
> > that can compare to that!
>
> You can't have it both way, because the Qur'an is the last revelation and it
> does not
> say that after this there would be another scripture... Unless you know some
> verses
> that say there would be another ????? .All Muslims know that Mohammed is
> the last Prophet.
Actually, Baha'is cannot negate Baha'u'llah's testimony that Islam is
a divine religion, even if they wanted to. There is simply no
wiggling room about it. To be honest every Baha'i is compelled to
testify to the divine status of the twelve Imams as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have read an Islamic tradition which says: "One hour's reflection is
> > preferable to seventy years of pious worship".
>
> Well it does not say "pious"because piety comes after reflecting on the
> divine.
> That tradition was a warning to those who
> worship with out reflection, like robot....
> Mohammad (3alayhe 'salaam ) used to worship all night until his feet were
> swollen , when he was asked about it, he said should i not be a thankful
> servant ??
Yes, the Bab was like that. I have heard similar reports about Shoghi
Effendi and 'Abdu'l-Baha and would imagine the same is true of
Baha'u'llah. My impression is that more spiritual people do indeed
pray more, but that it has to be something that is actually felt, not
mindlessly imitated.
>
>
>
>
> > > My friend, Baha'is are forbidden to dispute with others. We believe in
> the
> > authenticity and divinity of the Holy Qur'an, and in Muhammad (pbuh).
>
> What does the word "dispute" mean to you ?!!! I'm only giving you a fact
> about Islam
> that your religion claims to accept !!! If you are bahai then you too accept
> this fact of Islam: there is no other prophets and scriptures after islam.
All right, how about "you are wrong". Any Muslim who believes in the
finality of Islam is not really a Muslim at all.
Best Regards,
Matt
cbre...@northlink.com
>and it does not say that after this there would be another
>scripture... Unless you know some verses that say there would be
>another ????? .All Muslims know that Mohammed is the last Prophet.
Baha'u'llah pointed out the Mohammad also claimed to be the
"first" Prophet, Adam. He explained that His use of these terms
"first" and "last" were an expression of His essential oneness with
all other Revealers of God's Word not a declaration that their would
be no other Revealers of of God's Word after Him.
"Furthermore, it is evident to thee that the Bearers of the trust of
God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the
Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message.
Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down
from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim
His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and
the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of
God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.
These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is
the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if
thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the
same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath
revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His
Messengers!" (Qur'an 2:285) For they one and all summon the
people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald
unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all
invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the
mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'an,
revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the
first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus."
Similar statements have been made by Ali. Sayings such as this, which indicate
the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the
Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine
knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are
the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day springs of His Revelation.
This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of
number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but one." (Qur'an 54:50) Inasmuch as the
Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and
the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of
certitude, have said: "Muhammad is our first, Muhammad our last, Muhammad
our all." Kitab-i-Iqan pp.152-154
Baha'u'llah goes on to say:
"From these statements therefore it hath been made evident and manifest that
should a Soul in the "End that knoweth no end" be made manifest, and arise to
proclaim and uphold a Cause which in "the Beginning that hath no beginning"
another Soul had proclaimed and upheld, it can be truly declared of Him Who is
the Last and of Him Who was the First that they are one and the same, inasmuch
as both are the Exponents of one and the same Cause. For this reason, hath the
Point of the Bayan may the life of all else but Him be His sacrifice! likened the
Manifestations of God unto the sun which, though it rise from the "Beginning that
hath no beginning" until the "End that knoweth no end," is none the less the same
sun. Now, wert thou to say, that this sun is the former sun, thou speakest the truth;
and if thou sayest that this sun is the "return" of that sun, thou also speakest the
truth. Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term "last" is
applicable to the "first," and the term "first" applicable to the "last;" inasmuch as
both the "first" and the "last" have risen to proclaim one and the same Faith.
"Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have
quaffed the wine of knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who,
through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the
Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all
His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the
Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam,
Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who
hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last
Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" that
is Adam in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that
Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He
likewise is their "Seal."
"The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all
mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have
disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. What, We ask, could this people
presume the terms "first" and "last" when referring to God glorified be His
Name! to mean? If they maintain that these terms bear reference to this
material universe, how could it be possible, when the visible order of things is still
manifestly existing? Nay, in this instance, by "first" is meant no other than the
"last" and by "last" no other than the "first." Kitab-i-Iqan161-164
It is a curious phenomenon that every religion tends to view their Book as the
last, the final, revelation from God.
Remember, if you will, Muhammad's response to the Jewish belief that after
Moses no prophet should be sent of God, that the "Hand of God was chained
up." Baha'u'llah reviews this contention and Muhammads response as follows:
"When the Unseen, the Eternal, the divine Essence, caused the Day star of
Muhammad to rise above the horizon of knowledge, among the cavils which the
Jewish divines raised against Him was that after Moses no Prophet should be
sent of God. Yea, mention hath been made in the scriptures of a Soul Who must
needs be made manifest and Who will advance the Faith, and promote the
interests of the people, of Moses, so that the Law of the Mosaic Dispensation
may encompass the whole earth. Thus hath the King of eternal glory referred in
His Book to the words uttered by those wanderers in the vale of remoteness and
error: '"The hand of God," say the Jews, "is chained up." Chained up be their
own hands! And for that which they have said, they were accursed. Nay,
outstretched are both His hands!' (Qur'an 5:64) 'The hand of God is above their
hands.' (Qur'an 48:10)
"Although the commentators of the Qur'an have related in divers manners the
circumstances attending the revelation of this verse, yet thou shouldst endeavour
to apprehend the purpose thereof. He saith: How false is that which the Jews
have imagined! How can the hand of Him Who is the King in truth, Who caused
the countenance of Moses to be made manifest, and conferred upon Him the
robe of Prophethood how can the hand of such a One be chained and fettered?
How can He be conceived as powerless to raise up yet another Messenger after
Moses? Behold the absurdity of their saying; how far it hath strayed from the
path of knowledge and understanding! Observe how in this day also, all these
people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities. For over a
thousand years they have been reciting this verse, and unwittingly pronouncing
their censure against the Jews, utterly unaware that they themselves, openly and
privily, are voicing the sentiments and belief of the Jewish people!"
Kitab-i-Iqan pp.135-137
Another meaning of the word "last" that you might consider is "last" as in most
recent. If I say, "I worked last night," I refer to Thursday night as last night not
because I believe there will be no more nights after Thursday night, rather, I refer
to it as last night because it was the most recent.
In the year 500 A.D., before the revelation of the Qur'an, the Gospel was the
last Revelation from God. In 1843, before the Manifestation of the Bab, the
Qur'an was the last Revelation from God. In 1852, before the Manifestation of
Baha'u'llah, the Revelation of the Bab was the last Revelation from God. Today
the last, the most recent, revelation from God is the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. In a
thousand or thousands of years the next Revelation from God will be the last
Revelation from God. The station of being the "last" Revelation from God moves
from one Revelation to the next like the crown passes from one king to the next.
Carl Brehmer
khadooj
> It does not say in the Holy Qur'an that it is the last Revelation from
God.
Yes it does say that ( Al yawma "atmamtu" lakum deenukum wa radeetu
lakum El Islam deenaa )
which means " Today I completed your religious teaching and have honored
for you Islam as a religion "
All the Arab speaking people understand what this word "Atmamtu "means.
> similar lines of interpretation. Baha'is believe that all such meanings
are
> valid and true.
The Ahmadeyah of Mirza Ghulam think that he was the Mahdi and they also play
with the
word Khatam ....
> But who is it who can interpret authoritatively the verses of God? Is it
> the clergy? Is it the people themselves? Or is it only Allah? According
the
> Holy Qur'an, it is only Allah who has that authority:
The prophet Muhammad ( 3alayhe 'salaam ) explained the verses to his
companions .And it is said in the Qur'an " Leyu3alimukum al kitaba wal
Hikmah "
he came to teach you the book and the wisdom .
> Baha'u'llah denies the validity of this concept of finality .
Mirza Ghulam denies it also I guess they have somthing in common.
> `Seal of the Prophets' to veil their eyes", "to obscure their
understanding,
There is nothing obscure in the understanding of the word Khatam
for Muslims , they all agree , and in the time of Khulafa Arrashedeen
they fought the Musaylimah al Kazaab for claiming he was a prophet after
Muhammad (3alayhe Afdal assalaam )
> and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties".
If you look at the work of Iben Arabi or Rumi or Hafiz , you see that they
have similar spiritual dept but they don't claim to be prophets..
> seems to be clear about the coming of Messengers. The Arabic verb "ya'
> tiyenna" clearly conveys future continuation :
the speech was directed to bane Isra'eel , because the context is clear.
>
> "O children of Adam! When Messengers come (ya' tiyenna) to you from among
> you, who convey my verses, then those who take heed and amend will have
> neither fear nor regret. " Qur'an 7:35
this is more proof of the finality of the prophet.because it also say
that " inna ddena 3inda 'llah Al Islam " it speaks about the past that
ended with full Islam with the word " Atmamtu " and it said "who ever
want other then Islam it would not be accepted "
> for each nation, there is a set term.)
And it said you were a nation in the middle a wetness
to all the other nation and the prophet is a witness over you
"Kuntum umatan Wasata " the word wasat meaning middle.
And in the Qur'an it is said " you were the best nation that was brought out
for people.
You order what is good, and you forbid what is bad. And you believe in
Allah."
" Kuntum Khyra Umatin Okhrijat Li nnassi Ta'muroona bil Ma3roof Wa tanhawna
3ani 'l Munkar Wa tuminoona Bil'llah "
> If you have more questions, or would like further quotes
> from the Qur'an or the Baha'i Writings on any of your questions, please
> don't hesitate to write.
Thank you so much for your good adab , I'm not able to answer to all the
other posts but
I chose to stick with you , but I do read them all to learn about your way
of belief.
I do have a Question , Why do you not follow Mirza Ghulam who came after
Bahau'llah
and he clamed to be a Mahdi and a Prophet ?
Robin Baylor or Fred Capp
>I do have a Question , Why do you not follow Mirza Ghulam who came after
>Bahau'llah and he clamed to be a Mahdi and a Prophet ?
Everyone will jump on this but...
Because the Blessed Beauty did not name him as a valid prophet. He
did, however, name His eldest son as the "Center of His Covenant" & a
host of other appellations. 'Abdu'l-Baha we follow. Also, we believe
that the Mihdi had already come, where does it say that there will be
two Mihdis?
BTW: I don't even remotely claim to be able to follow Arabic, & my
server was throwing some really weird characters at me. (for ex. what
I assume was supposed to be translated as "Peace be unto Him" started
with a 3:= followed by what appeared to be random consonants &,
eventually, vowels) As such I was not able to follow more than the
spirit of your argument, were you saying that Baha'u'llah cannot be
right because Muhammad's faith (Peace be to those who hear His Holy
Name) is named "Islam"? But do not all Muslims not also say that
every messenger from God taught us Islam? Could it then not follow
that the statement:"Today I completed your religious teaching and
have honored for you Islam as a religion" might be related to Jesus
saying that He was the Alpha & the Omega, the First & the Last? Or,
even, His assertion that "No man cometh unto the Father except by
Me."? The Christians use these (& many other) statements to "prove"
that Prophet Muhammad must be false. Take care lest you fall into the
same trap.
As I stated earlier, the most recent Revelation from God is
available on the Internet (in many languages.) Since I do not see
sign that you have ever sought this out I'm forced to wonder if your
motives are, in fact, less than pristine. I would be most pleased
should you prove otherwise.
In the service of God & all of His Messengers;
Suzanne Gerstner
> God.
>
> Yes it does say that ( Al yawma "atmamtu" lakum deenukum wa radeetu
> lakum El Islam deenaa )
> which means " Today I completed your religious teaching and have honored
> for you Islam as a religion "
> All the Arab speaking people understand what this word "Atmamtu "means.
Salamu alaykum, Khadooj,
If you ask too many questions in one posting, my answer would have to be
either very long and complex or very shallow and not really dealing with
what you want to know. I see three subjects which are important to discuss
just in this one paragraph alone, and each one could be the subject of a new
posting. 1) What is Islam? Is it the Muhammadan religion, or is it the
religion of submitting one's will to Allah? 2) Is what "all Arabs know"
to be true the standard we should use in deciding what is true and what is
not in the Qur'an? What did Muhammad (pbuh), have to say about this? 3)
And finally, what does the term "completion of religion" mean? Does it mean
that this is the final revelation from Allah, as you say? Or does it mean
something else?
I think that one or two subject per posting is enough, dont you? We always
have time to address your other questions later. I think the main question
you are asking here is about the term "completion" or "pefection" of
religion. When we look at this term in the light of the whole Qur'an, we
find that religion is described as being completed, in quite a few verses
(in addition to verse 5:4).
For instance, we find that God's favor was completed at the time of Abraham,
Isaac, and Joseph:
"And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of
sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as
He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your
Lord is knowing, wise." Qur'an 12:6
We also find that God completed His favor through Moses:
"Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favor) to those who
would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a
mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord." Qur'an
6:154
According to the Qur'an, the completion of the favor is also conditional
upon the individual's success in obeying and fearing God:
"And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the
Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your face towards it, so that
people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are
unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on
you and that you may walk on the right course. Qur'an 2:150
It is also necessary to remember, that both completeness and perfection are
among God's attributes, integral to His Essence (magnified be His name). It
would be blasphemous to doubt that any of His actions and doings or favors,
would be anything but complete and perfect :
"It is Allah Who made out of the things He created, some things to give you
shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to
protect you from heat, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual)
violence. Thus does He complete His favours on you, that ye may bow to His
Will (in Islam). " Qur'an 16:81
Here is a question for you, Khadooj. If God has always supplied us with all
provisions and needs for every journey we have undertaken, and His favor to
us is complete, does this in any way mean He won't supply us with aids and
provisions for a future journey? Does it mean there won't ever be any future
journeys?
Salamu alaykum,
Suzanne
William P. Collins
<snip>
> There is nothing obscure in the understanding of the word Khatam
Christians agree that Jesus' words "I am the way, the truth and the life. No
man cometh to the Father except by me" means that Jesus is the only way to
God, forever and for all time, and that Muhammad was therefore a false
claimant. Are these Christians correct in their interpretation? Muslims
and Baha'is would understand the words of Jesus differently.
Have you actually studied the writings of Baha'u'llah, particularly His
treatment of the term "Seal of the Prophets" in the Kitab-i-Iqan, so that
you can understand His argument? If not, your quoting of passages from the
Qur'an with the expectation that their current accepted interpretation among
Muslims will sway Baha'is or other readers of this list can only fall on
deaf ears.
I marvel at the energy exercised to convince a few Baha'is on this list that
there can be no further messengers of God after Muhammad, that there are no
religions after Islam, and that the Baha'i Faith is therefore false. Surely
the tiny Baha'i community, which is severely proscribed in nearly all
Islamic lands and its followers persecuted, is not a threat -- unless the
principles brought by Baha'u'llah are closer to the truth of human spiritual
and social evolution than are claims to finality and exclusivity. Surely if
the Baha'i Faith is teaching falsehood, then God will prevent it from
succeeding. Queen Victoria, upon receiving Baha'u'llah's letter to her, is
reported to have said: "If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it is of
no consequence."
Bill Collins
Matt Menge
> news:ac0afv$3sb$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>
> > It does not say in the Holy Qur'an that it is the last Revelation from
> God.
>
> Yes it does say that ( Al yawma "atmamtu" lakum deenukum wa radeetu
> lakum El Islam deenaa )
> which means " Today I completed your religious teaching and have honored
> for you Islam as a religion "
> All the Arab speaking people understand what this word "Atmamtu "means.
>
The same could be said of any of the revealed religions. They are all
complete.
> > similar lines of interpretation. Baha'is believe that all such meanings
> are
> > valid and true.
>
> The Ahmadeyah of Mirza Ghulam think that he was the Mahdi and they also play
> with the
> word Khatam ....
Reading your entire message, you seem to have some sort of hang-up
about the Ahmadi Muslims. Undoubtably Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad, or
whoever, had some false teachings just as the Mormons do. But he had
soom pretty good ideas too. His ideas are only damaging when they are
taken as a whole to be infallible.
>
>
> > Baha'u'llah denies the validity of this concept of finality .
>
> Mirza Ghulam denies it also I guess they have somthing in common.
Yes, we do. But we are not, of course, Ahmadi Muslims. Might I add
that the concept of finality is not merely dangerous in the sense that
it prevents the recognition of new Prophets. It also lends itself to
exegetical paralysis within a religion. It prevents religions from
being seen in their historical context, and so forth.
>
> > `Seal of the Prophets' to veil their eyes", "to obscure their
> understanding,
>
> There is nothing obscure in the understanding of the word Khatam
> for Muslims , they all agree , and in the time of Khulafa Arrashedeen
> they fought the Musaylimah al Kazaab for claiming he was a prophet after
> Muhammad (3alayhe Afdal assalaam )
Actually that has not been my impression. Muslims seem to confuse
Prophets with mere humans. They don't seem to differentiate betweeen
Prophets and Messengers or even between Prophets who have and have not
been endowed with constancy. The two most important Prophets were
Muhammad and Jesus, but Muslims seem to have trouble with issues
related to Their common station.
To be honest I have never heard Baha'u'llah to claim to be a Prophet
or Messenger. He simply says He was sent by God, that His station is
greater than that of the Prophets, and so on and so forth.
>
>
> > and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties".
>
> If you look at the work of Iben Arabi or Rumi or Hafiz , you see that they
> have similar spiritual depth but they don't claim to be prophets.
I'm not quite sure where you are going with this. Rumi and Hafiz are
long dead (who is Ibn Arabi?) and they certainly never claimed to be
Prophets. It has been a long time since Islam has produced people
like this. Perhaps it never will again.
>
> this is more proof of the finality of the prophet.because it also say
> that " inna ddena 3inda 'llah Al Islam " it speaks about the past that
> ended with full Islam with the word " Atmamtu " and it said "who ever
> want other then Islam it would not be accepted "
This sounds like an exclusivity claim. The most notable religion that
claims exclusivity is Christianity, which, of course precedes Islam.
When a Prophet makes an exclusivity claim (and many have)
>
> > for each nation, there is a set term.)
>
> And it said you were a nation in the middle a wetness
> to all the other nation and the prophet is a witness over you
> "Kuntum umatan Wasata " the word wasat meaning middle.
> And in the Qur'an it is said " you were the best nation that was brought out
> for people.
> You order what is good, and you forbid what is bad. And you believe in
> Allah."
> " Kuntum Khyra Umatin Okhrijat Li nnassi Ta'muroona bil Ma3roof Wa tanhawna
> 3ani 'l Munkar Wa tuminoona Bil'llah "
I don't follow.
>
> > If you have more questions, or would like further quotes
> > from the Qur'an or the Baha'i Writings on any of your questions, please
> > don't hesitate to write.
>
> Thank you so much for your good adab , I'm not able to answer to all the
> other posts but
> I chose to stick with you , but I do read them all to learn about your way
> of belief.
> I do have a Question , Why do you not follow Mirza Ghulam who came after
> Bahau'llah
> and he clamed to be a Mahdi and a Prophet ?
In my case, I simply don't believe Mirza Ghulam. As you realize,
neither Hindus nor Buddhists make a claim to finality. But that does
not mean they will follow anyone who claims to be an Avatar or a
Buddha.
Best Regards,
Matt
Bruce D Limber
> khadooj saith:
> I do have a Question: Why do you not follow Mirza Ghulam who came
after Bahau'llah and claimed to be a Mahdi and a Prophet?
Very simple.
Because Baha'u'llah, in the Baha'i scriptures, said explicitly that there
will be no further Divine Messenger for at least one thousand years from His
own Revelation, and further said that this statement is literal and may not
be interpreted as any sort of symbolism.
So IOV anyone making this claim after Baha'u'llah is ipso facto false. I
don't know what Mirza Ghulam's status is, but our scriptures state that
whatever it is he is not a Divine Messenger like Muhammad or Baha'u'llah.
Peace,
Bruce
Javan Barzakhi
You may find the "Difference in Station between a Messenger (Rasool), and
Prophet (Nabi)" article at http://www.bci.org/islam-bahai/nabi.html
Here is a brief extract:
-------------------
One definition of "Messenger" given, is that a Messenger brings a
revelation, a religion. The following verse from the Qur'an is repeated
three times, always with the word "Rasool":
"He it is Who sends the Messenger for guidance, with the true religion." -
Qur’an 9:33 , 48:28, and 61:9
Only a few Individuals mentioned in the Qur'an are called Messengers. In
chapter 61 of the Qur'an (Al-Saf) , in verses 4,5, and 8, the word "Rasool"
is used for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (PBU Them). All Three were law
bearing Messengers with Books and Revelation (Deen).
In the Holy Qur'an, we find many more names of prophets mentioned than of
Messengers. Some of these names are, Isaac, Jacob, Ismael, Idris, David,
Solomon and many many others (PBU Them all). They were all prophets, and
non of Them came with a new religion. It is also interesting to read in the
following verse that those who obey the Messenger, will be in the company of
the prophets and the saints (who also obey the Messenger) :
All who obey God and the Messenger are in the company of those on whom is
the grace of God, of the Prophets, the sincere, the martyrs (or witnesses)
and the righteous " - Qur'an 4:69
-------------------
Please see the complete article at http://www.bci.org/islam-bahai/nabi.html.
Regards,
Javan.
"khadooj" <kha...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:ac9gra$nf5$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>
> Suzanne Gerstner <suzanne....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:ac0afv$3sb$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>
> > It does not say in the Holy Qur'an that it is the last Revelation from
> God.
>
> Yes it does say that ( Al yawma "atmamtu" lakum deenukum wa radeetu
> lakum El Islam deenaa )
> which means " Today I completed your religious teaching and have honored
> for you Islam as a religion "
> All the Arab speaking people understand what this word "Atmamtu "means.
>
> > similar lines of interpretation. Baha'is believe that all such meanings
> are
> > valid and true.
>
> The Ahmadeyah of Mirza Ghulam think that he was the Mahdi and they also
play
> with the
> word Khatam ....
>
> > But who is it who can interpret authoritatively the verses of God? Is
it
> > the clergy? Is it the people themselves? Or is it only Allah? According
> the
> > Holy Qur'an, it is only Allah who has that authority:
>
> The prophet Muhammad ( 3alayhe 'salaam ) explained the verses to his
> companions .And it is said in the Qur'an " Leyu3alimukum al kitaba wal
> Hikmah "
> he came to teach you the book and the wisdom .
>
>
> > Baha'u'llah denies the validity of this concept of finality .
>
> Mirza Ghulam denies it also I guess they have somthing in common.
>
> > `Seal of the Prophets' to veil their eyes", "to obscure their
> understanding,
>
> There is nothing obscure in the understanding of the word Khatam
> for Muslims , they all agree , and in the time of Khulafa Arrashedeen
> they fought the Musaylimah al Kazaab for claiming he was a prophet after
> Muhammad (3alayhe Afdal assalaam )
>
>
> > and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties".
>
> If you look at the work of Iben Arabi or Rumi or Hafiz , you see that they
> have similar spiritual dept but they don't claim to be prophets..
>
> > seems to be clear about the coming of Messengers. The Arabic verb "ya'
> > tiyenna" clearly conveys future continuation :
>
> the speech was directed to bane Isra'eel , because the context is clear.
>
>
> >
> > "O children of Adam! When Messengers come (ya' tiyenna) to you from
among
> > you, who convey my verses, then those who take heed and amend will have
> > neither fear nor regret. " Qur'an 7:35
>
> this is more proof of the finality of the prophet.because it also say
> that " inna ddena 3inda 'llah Al Islam " it speaks about the past that
> ended with full Islam with the word " Atmamtu " and it said "who ever
> want other then Islam it would not be accepted "
>
> > for each nation, there is a set term.)
>
> And it said you were a nation in the middle a wetness
> to all the other nation and the prophet is a witness over you
> "Kuntum umatan Wasata " the word wasat meaning middle.
> And in the Qur'an it is said " you were the best nation that was brought
out
> for people.
> You order what is good, and you forbid what is bad. And you believe in
> Allah."
> " Kuntum Khyra Umatin Okhrijat Li nnassi Ta'muroona bil Ma3roof Wa
tanhawna
> 3ani 'l Munkar Wa tuminoona Bil'llah "
>
> > If you have more questions, or would like further quotes
> > from the Qur'an or the Baha'i Writings on any of your questions, please
> > don't hesitate to write.
>
> Thank you so much for your good adab , I'm not able to answer to all the
> other posts but
> I chose to stick with you , but I do read them all to learn about your way
> of belief.
> I do have a Question , Why do you not follow Mirza Ghulam who came after
> Bahau'llah
> and he clamed to be a Mahdi and a Prophet ?
>
>
>
>
>
khadooj
> Salamu alaykum, Khadooj,
Wa 3alaykum a ssalaam Suzanne.
> If you ask too many questions in one posting, my answer would have to be
> either very long and complex or very shallow and not really dealing with
> what you want to know.
I agree with you , lets start by simplifying the questions.
Muslims believe in the Qur'an and the Sunnah .
Now the saying that makes the Muslims to believe in the finality of
Prophethood
are authentic recording in the Hadith that are in various isnad of
trustworthy companions.
1. The holy Prophet ( PBUH ) observed:; " The tribe of Israel were guided by
many prophets. When a prophet passed away, another Prophet succeeded him.
But no Prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me".
Bukhari, Kitab ul Manaqib
2
khadooj
Robin Baylor or Fred Capp <cadr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:acauvb$5r4$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> that the statement:"Today I completed your religious teaching and
> have honored for you Islam as a religion" might be related to Jesus
> saying that He was the Alpha & the Omega, the First & the Last? Or,
> even, His assertion that "No man cometh unto the Father except by
> Me."? The Christians use these (& many other) statements to "prove"
> that Prophet Muhammad must be false. Take care lest you fall into the
> same trap.
But Jesus ( 3alayhe Salaam ) said I must go so the comforter can come if I
don't go he will not come
and when he comes he will show you All .....etc
Piraclet is the name....
> As I stated earlier, the most recent Revelation from God is
> available on the Internet (in many languages.)
As for me , I'm satisfied with Islam , I'm not looking for the most
recent Revelation. I'm only trying to understand how Bah'is faith work.
>Since I do not see sign that you have ever sought this out I'm forced to
wonder if your
> motives are, in fact, less than pristine.
I rather learn from posts of live people that are practicing than search
all over the internet....
I would be most pleased
> should you prove otherwise.
Wasting time is not my goal ...
I will read all the post related to this subject , but I will continue
most of my answers to Suzanne.. since I have a life too
and I can't answer everyone ....
Alkassir
Mr. Khadooj
Selam brother,
I am a Baha'i from an Islamic background, and to be honest, I feel
that I am more of a Muslim today than ever before.
If you are interested, we can start and begin a serious of educational
debates, we take it subject by subject without diversity, and when we
decide the subject is done, we can pass on to the other.
I suggest that we start with the argument of "Seal of prophet hood"
and take it from there. What do you think?
I am an Arab Iraqi from Baghdad who was a Sunni Muslim, then Shi'a
then finally a Baha'i.
Now, I would like you to introduce yourself and start asking your
question. Suzanne is my friend and has a great influence on my
progress.
She will also help us from time to time, or any time she likes.
Wel- Selam.
Bruce D Limber
Javan Barzakhi
khadooj,
-------------------
Regards,
Javan.
> Suzanne Gerstner <suzanne....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:ac0afv$3sb$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>
> > It does not say in the Holy Qur'an that it is the last Revelation from
> God.
>
> Yes it does say that ( Al yawma "atmamtu" lakum deenukum wa radeetu
> lakum El Islam deenaa )
> which means " Today I completed your religious teaching and have honored
> for you Islam as a religion "
> I do have a Question , Why do you not follow Mirza Ghulam who came after
> Bahau'llah
> and he clamed to be a Mahdi and a Prophet ?
Suzanne Gerstner
> >Since I do not see sign that you have ever sought this out I'm forced to
> wonder if your
> > motives are, in fact, less than pristine.
I think we should be careful in judging the purity of the motivations of
others. What are pristine motivations? Is it only asking questions from
the point of view of a seeker, or would wanting to defend the Faith of God
from possible corruption also be considered pristine motives?
I think you will find that a lot of Muslims became angry when they find out
what the claims of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are because they believe they are
opposed to the clear teachings of Muhammad, and they rise up to defend Islam
by trying to prove Baha'is wrong. To me this is just showing that they love
God and His Faith dearly, and it is actually a good sign. To me, these are
pure motives: even though they are mistaken and we are in no way against
Islam, but our Faith is actually the continuation of it.
Later on, when they recover of the shock of the claims of our Faith (and
they are *big* claims, and really are shocking to others), they may actually
come to investigate it sincerely. But this will only happen if they see in
Baha'is the truth of the Faith of God manifested in deeds. If they aren't
investigating the Scriptures, they may be investigating the Baha'is
themselves. I believe we should put these words of 'Abdu'l-Baha into effect
in our lives -- not only as a way of teaching, but just because Baha'u'llah
would want us to do this.
"Let those who meet you know, without your proclaiming the fact, that
you are indeed a Baha'i.
Put into practice the Teaching of Baha'u'llah, that of kindness to all
nations. Do not be content with showing friendship in words alone, let your
heart burn with loving kindness for all who may cross your path.
Oh, you of the Western nations, be kind to those who come from the
Eastern world to sojourn among you. Forget your conventionality when you
speak with them; they are not accustomed to it. To Eastern peoples this
demeanour seems cold, unfriendly. Rather let your manner be sympathetic.
Let it be seen that you are filled with universal love. When you meet a
Persian or any other stranger, speak to him as to a friend; if he seems to
be lonely try to help him, give him of your willing service; if he be sad
console him, if poor succour him, if oppressed rescue him, if in misery
comfort him. In so doing you will manifest that not in words only, but in
deed and in truth, you think of all men as your brothers."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Paris Talks*, Pages: 15-16)
This is what promoting peace, unity and the oneness of mankind is all about.
When we can do this from our hearts, I believe the Faith will spread like
wildfire.
Kind regards,
Suzanne
cbre...@northlink.com
> after Bahau'llah and claimed to be a Mahdi and a Prophet?
I found this following statement that discribes one of the beliefs
of Mirza Ghulam.
"The belief held by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was that the
Holy Prophet Muhammad is the Last of the Prophets, and after him
no prophet is to arise, neither new nor old. Before the Holy Prophet
Muhammad, prophets used to arise to put man in touch with God,
and to deliver the commands of God to man. With the finality of
prophethood, religion and religious laws reached perfection, and
therefore the chain of prophets was cut off after the Holy Prophet.
No prophet will now come."
Baha'u'llah said, "The Revelation which, from time immemorial,
hath been acclaimed as the Purpose and Promise of all the
Prophets of God, and the most cherished Desire of His
Messengers, hath now, by virtue of the pervasive Will of the
Almighty and at His irresistible bidding, been revealed unto men.
The advent of such a Revelation hath been heralded in all the
sacred Scriptures." Gleaning from the Writings of Baha'u'llah p. 6
Baha'u'llah also said, "Had it been in my power, I would have,
under no circumstances, consented to distinguish myself amongst
men, for the Name I bear utterly disdaineth to associate itself with
this generation whose tongues are sullied and whose hearts are
false. And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the
voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me,
and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel
overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom,
bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged
and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every
limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear
witness to this call: "God, besides Whom is none other God, and
He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory
unto all that are in heaven and on earth." Gleaning from the
Writings of Baha'u'llah pp. 103-104
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad apparently wasn't aware of
Baha'u'llah, wasn't aware that God had already done what Hazrat
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said couldn't happen--He sent a Messenger
after Muhammad and gave mankind a further Revelation beyond
the Qur'an.
Baha'u'llah referred to the belief that "the chain of prophets was
cut off after the Holy Prophet (and that) no prophet will now come"
as a "foolish absurdity" and an "idle contention."
"Observe how in this day also, all these people have occupied
themselves with such foolish absurdities. . . Thou art surely aware
of their idle contention, that all Revelation is ended, that the portals
of Divine mercy are closed, that from the day springs of eternal
holiness no sun shall rise again, that the Ocean of everlasting
bounty is forever stilled, and that out of the Tabernacle of ancient
glory the Messengers of God have ceased to be made manifest. . .
These people have imagined that the flow of God's
all encompassing grace and plenteous mercies, the cessation of
which no mind can contemplate, has been halted."
Kitab-i-Iqan p.137
Carl Brehmer
Suzanne Gerstner
Alkassir, one of the people who responded to your posting today, is a friend
of mine. He comes from an Islamic background, and the questions you are
asking are the same ones he was asking last year when he was exploring the
Baha'i Faith on another newsgroup, so he really does know where you are
coming from. I suggested that he might like to come and talk to you. If
you only have time to speak with one person, perhaps he would be a better
one to speak with, since he understands your questions, and the background
behind them, very well. Of course, I would be happy to continue dialoguing
with you too. It's your choice.
> Now the saying that makes the Muslims to believe in the finality of
> Prophethood
> are authentic recording in the Hadith that are in various isnad of
> trustworthy companions.
>
> 1. The holy Prophet ( PBUH ) observed:; " The tribe of Israel were guided
by
> many prophets. When a prophet passed away, another Prophet succeeded him.
> But no Prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me".
And no prophets *have* come after Muhammad (PBUH), since He was the Seal of
the Prophets. No messenger of Allah has ever claimed the title:
"prophethood." If they did, they were a false prophet. There were caliphs
and there were holy imams, depending on whether you were Sunni or Shi'a, but
they did not call themselves "prophets". And the Bab and Baha'u'llah also
did not call themselves "prophets" either. They were called "Manifestations
of God." The age of prophethood is indeed finished.
But tell me, my friend, do Muslims not believe in the appearance of the Lord
at the Day of Resurrection,? Does this mean that the Unknowable Essence
described in the Qur'an is going to descend into the realm of creation?
Wouldn't this imply imperfection? How can we imagine such a thing? And do
Musims not believe that the Imam Mahdi will come, and Christ will return?
If so, how can we say that all Revelation from Allah has stopped? Are we
not limiting the powers of Allah by thinking such a thing possible? Are we
not saying His hands are tied up? That Allah is not free to do what He
wants?
By the way, I notice that you don't mention the quotes from the Holy Qur'an
I cited regarding the "completion" of religion. What did you think of them?
Is it clearer now that God's favor has always been complete in religion?
This was true at the time of Abraham and Moses; it was true at the time of
Muhammad, and it is true now. Unfortunately, the people have misunderstood
this statement, and it has become a veil to them in believing in any new
Messengers.
Wel- Selam!
Suzanne
p.s. I believe your posting was cut off. I only saw your first point.
khadooj
news:acav0l$5rp$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> I'm not quite sure where you are going with this. Rumi and Hafiz are
> long dead (who is Ibn Arabi?) and they certainly never claimed to be
> Prophets. It has been a long time since Islam has produced people
> like this. Perhaps it never will again.
Well Rumi and Hafiz ( Qaddassa'llahu sirruhum ) left
a heavy spiritual books that people still use
The best poetry that is read now by most non Muslims is Rumi.
Ibn Arabi with his ( Futuhat Al Makkeyah ) is huge work
here some poetry from him
The great Sophi Sheikh Muhy-Ed-Din Bin Arabi says in one of his poems (13)
in Fossos Al Hikam (Ch 24 p. 289)
"Before now I used to ignore my friend
If his religion was not close to mine
But now, my ear became receptive to every picture
It is a field of deers, and a convent for nuns.
A house for idols, and a Ka'aba for pilgrims
A slate for the Bible, and Mus-haf for Qur'an
I devote myself to the religion of Love.
Wherever it could be found."
khadooj
news:jnjVnB.A....@bounty.bcca.org...
> Baha'u'llah referred to the belief that "the chain of prophets was
> cut off after the Holy Prophet (and that) no prophet will now come"
> as a "foolish absurdity" and an "idle contention."
>
Then Baha'u'llah did not read what Muhammad (3alahe afdal 's'salam )
said in an Authentic hadith .
The Prophet of God ( PBUH ) affirmed : " My position in relation to the
prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A
man erected a building and adorned this edifice with a great beauty, but he
left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People
looked around the building and marvelled from that niche. I am like that one
missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets".
Bukhari, kitab ul Manqib.
Bruce D Limber
You should be aware that for Baha'is, "authentic hadith" is pretty much
an
oxymoron.
We accept as reliable only those few hadith which are directly quoted in
our
scriptures. All others we see as questionable and not necessarily
reliable--what Baha'is usually call "pilgrims' notes."
And this seems only proper, the more so given that Muslims themselves
have
never agreed on which hadith are and are not valid, such that different
Muslim groups recognize and accept different subgroups of hadith!
Peace,
Bruce