Arrogance and misunderstanding.
compx2
thread. I see Baha'is misinterpreting my religion into a pseudo
Christian cult of "believe this and be saved" and all the other
Baha'is giving unthinking creedence to such arrogance and
misinterpretation of the Word of God. My posts are censored because I
quote stuff people are saying, therefore it is perceived by the
moderators as an attack on them. But it is not personal. I want
people to examine what they are saying.
We become lazy and arrogant because, well, it makes us feel as though
we don't have to do anything to be better than others.
I think we are twisting of the Word of God into something that gives
advantage to those of us who recognize the qualities of God in
Baha'u'llah and discounts those who have not. It is not what was
intended originally when the words were first produced. Any
dispassionate observer could easily see that the words "path of God"
were not intended to refer to some future religion.
It is this sort of thinking that makes me think I should not be a
Baha'i. Just about every Baha'i seems to think this way, and it
disgusts me.
--Kent
compx2
Suzanne Gerstner
I am wondering how much contact you actually have with Baha'is. Are you
active in an actual Baha'i community? Do you get together with Baha'is
regionally, nationally, internationally? Have you been on pilgrimage? Has
it been recent?
I just wonder what makes you such an authority on the six million Baha'is in
the world. Have you met them all? Do you follow them in their daily lives
and see how they interact with others? You use the word "arrogance and
misunderstanding" in the title. I wonder if you refer to yourself and your
judgment of others.
This is my favorite quote on working on ourselves and not busying ourselves
with the shortcomings of others:
"In order to achieve this cordial unity one of the first essentials
insisted on by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha is that we resist the natural
tendency to let our attention dwell on the faults and failings of others
rather than on our own. Each of us is responsible for one life only, and
that is our own. Each of us is immeasurably far from being "perfect as our
heavenly father is perfect" and the task of perfecting our own life and
character is one that requires all our attention, our will-power and energy.
If we allow our attention and energy to be taken up in efforts to keep
others right and remedy their faults, we are wasting precious time. We are
like ploughmen each of whom has his team to manage and his plough to direct,
and in order to keep his furrow straight he must keep his eye on his goal
and concentrate on his own task. If he looks to this side and that to see
how Tom and Harry are getting on and to criticize their ploughing, then his
own furrow will assuredly become crooked.
On no subject are the Baha'i teachings more emphatic than on the
necessity to abstain from faultfinding and backbiting while being ever eager
to discover and root out our own faults and overcome our own failings.
If we profess loyalty to Baha'u'llah, to our Beloved Master and our
dear Guardian, then we must show our love by obedience to these explicit
teachings. Deeds not words are what they demand, and no amount of fervour
in the use of expressions of loyalty and adulation will compensate for
failure to live in the spirit of the teachings.
( (Shoghi Effendi: Living the Life, Pages: 3-4)
Perhaps you should start correcting the faults of Baha'is by looking to your
own self as the quote suggests.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
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Maureen McCarthy
"For this reason must all human beings powerfully sustain one another…"
The reason is that humanity like a tree and "it is needful for the bough to blossom, and leaf and fruit to flourish, and upon the interconnection of all parts of the world-tree, dependeth the flourishing of leaf and blossom, and the sweetness of the fruit.."
- Writings of the Baha’i Faith
> To: bahai...@bcca.org
> From: com...@gmail.com
> Subject: Arrogance and misunderstanding.
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:40:38 -0800
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Douglas McAdam
I don't wish to offend you but I feel Suzanne has made a good point by
saying-
> Perhaps you should start correcting the faults of Baha'is by looking
> to your own self as the quote suggests.
Some times when there is disagreement and we say we agree or disagree
we may inadvertently add to the problem but yet I think the many
quotes being supplied and wonderful opinions like what Suzanne has
offered in several posts are somehow not being understood by you. I
have stated many times that in all my 41 years as a Baha'i I have
never met the kinds of Baha'is your keep citing, and citing as if it
applies to all Baha'is but you.
My experience contradicts what you say in general about Baha'is. And
I will state categorically that I have never met any Baha'i or read
any post on this forum who believe and say they are better than those
who are not Baha'is.
What I would like you to do is take these quotes we offered and share
with us what you think they mean and without making negative
criticisms of other Baha'is.
From what you have posted I cannot help but ask why is it God sends
us Baha'u'llah when all we have to do is follow the previous
Manifestations in whatever religion they appeared? Are you aware of
the accurate description Baha'u'llah gave us of why He came, what the
condition of previous religions and believers are, etc.?
So bottom line for me Kent is that I am willing to discuss things with
you but not if you are going to continually berate Baha'is and
especially when I have had positive experiences with the generality of
Baha'is.
God bless,
doug
drgoplayer
I am ending this thread. Everyone has said what they have to say.
Much
is being repeated from previous threads that had to be stopped due to
becoming acrimonious.
If anyone wants to continue this privately they can post their desire
to do
so to thread giving the email address they want to use.
Tom
piedmont
> Obviously I disagree with just about every word in the Path of God
> Christian cult of "believe this and be saved" and all the other
> misinterpretation of the Word of God. My posts are censored because I
> quote stuff people are saying, therefore it is perceived by the
> moderators as an attack on them. But it is not personal. I want
> people to examine what they are saying.
>
> We become lazy and arrogant because, well, it makes us feel as though
> we don't have to do anything to be better than others.
>
> I think we are twisting of the Word of God into something that gives
> advantage to those of us who recognize the qualities of God in
> Baha'u'llah and discounts those who have not. It is not what was
> intended originally when the words were first produced. Any
> dispassionate observer could easily see that the words "path of God"
> were not intended to refer to some future religion.
>
> It is this sort of thinking that makes me think I should not be a
> Baha'i. Just about every Baha'i seems to think this way, and it
> disgusts me.
>
> --Kent
>
The teachings of God as given to us through Baha'u'llah are indeed
flawed from a future perspective, the teachings will become greatly
changed in the future.
Because the teachings are given in a context of what the simple
minded masses can grasp. The newest teachings IMHO are quite superior to
what has been given in the past and clarify many things.
I too have issues with some teachings but also see that baby steps
are still required because of the general ignorance and deeply
superstitious of the majority of people today. I can honestly say to
myself that compared to all the past teachings the newest teachings take
us closer to a better condition in this world and give a better
understanding of God and after we die.
So, some of us here and now can see the short comings but also we
need to understand it isn't just you and me but every single one of us.
An end to people believing in all the perceived variations of
faiths has got to end and only the newest teachings will bring that
about, the love and acceptance between people of all skin colors must
come to an end and only the newest teachings will do that, an end to the
cycle of the few hoarding vast wealth while others suffer must come to
an end and only the newest teachings will do that, on and on and on.
The other stuff that needs addressing will be dealt with later on a
mass scale. I'm as impatient as can be and if I see something 'stupid' I
can't understand why others can't or won't see it too. But that is the
way it is because even if I find it difficult to comprehend, as the new
teachings say, some are at different levels of acceptance, awareness,
maturity and they have to be accepted and forgiven.
Michael Willsey
Douglas McAdam
The Revelation of Baha'u'llah it the fulfillment of all that went
before and begins the Baha'i Cycles which is to last 5,000 centuries.
We will not have another Manifestation for at least 1,000 years. I
can send quotes if you wish.
The point is that to my understanding it is not the Writings that are
flawed, no matter from what perspective, it is we who need more
spiritual development in order to better understand and apply them.
However some folks believe they know and understand the Writings
better than others and can often be very disruptive by insisting their
interpretations are more realistic. We are supposed to consult and
not impose our personal views on others.
Personally I find the Writings very humbling.
God bless,
doug
Suzanne
> IMHO
> The teachings of God as given to us through Baha'u'llah are in
deed
> flawed from a future perspective, the teachings will become greatly
> changed in the future.
>
> Because the teachings are given in a context of what the simpl
e
> minded masses can grasp. The newest teachings IMHO are quite superior to
> what has been given in the past and clarify many things.
Hi Michael,
What I understand from what you wrote is that religion progresses as
the people progress and are able to understand what is said. A
kindergarten education is exactly right for 5 and 6 year olds, but
isn't right for university students. That's where progressive
revelation comes in, because God sends us teaching which are
absolutely correct for the age we are living in. The reason that you
find the Baha'i Writings superior is because you are ready for them.
Is that what you meant to say?
Michael:
> I too have issues with some teachings but also see that baby s
teps
> are still required because of the general ignorance and deeply
> superstitious of the majority of people today.
I would be interested in hearing what your issues are with some of the
teachings. That's the sort of thing we can talk about here, and
perhaps, through consultation, resolve them.
> So, some of us here and now can see the short comings but also
we
> need to understand it isn't just you and me but every single one of us.
> An end to people believing in all the perceived variations of
> faiths has got to end and only the newest teachings will bring that
> about, the love and acceptance between people of all skin colors must
> come to an end and only the newest teachings will do that, an end to the
> cycle of the few hoarding vast wealth while others suffer must come to
> an end and only the newest teachings will do that, on and on and on.
Yes. These are the social teachings for this age. I would end the
inequality of men and women must end; science and religion must be
harmonized; universal education is extremely important, we need a
world auxiliary language, and a world governing system if world peace
is to be realized. All these are teachings of Baha'ullah which the
world is working on, whether they know it or not.
>
> The other stuff that needs addressing will be dealt with later
on a
> mass scale. I'm as impatient as can be and if I see something 'stupid' I
> can't understand why others can't or won't see it too. But that is the
> way it is because even if I find it difficult to comprehend, as the new
> teachings say, some are at different levels of acceptance, awareness,
> maturity and they have to be accepted and forgiven.
Yes. People are all different, and what is exactly right for one
person is not for another. And remember, for God, a thousand years is
a day. Actually, there is no time in the world of God. So we mere
mortals get impatient, but that's because we don't have the vision to
see the process of what is unfolding in others.
All best wishes,
Suzanne
piedmont
>
>> IMHO
>> The teachings of God as given to us through Baha'u'llah are in
> deed
>> flawed from a future perspective, the teachings will become greatly
>> changed in the future.
>>
>> Because the teachings are given in a context of what the simpl
> e
>> minded masses can grasp. The newest teachings IMHO are quite superior to
>> what has been given in the past and clarify many things.
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> What I understand from what you wrote is that religion progresses as
> the people progress and are able to understand what is said. A
> kindergarten education is exactly right for 5 and 6 year olds, but
> isn't right for university students. That's where progressive
> revelation comes in, because God sends us teaching which are
> absolutely correct for the age we are living in. The reason that you
> find the Baha'i Writings superior is because you are ready for them.
> Is that what you meant to say?
"Flawed from a future perspective", Is it not correct that teachings of
old can seem flawed to us in this day and age? So, from a "future
perspective", folks in the future will probably see some teachings for
today as flawed.
In the Jewish Bible (Christian Old Testament" there is a story about
Jews who went into a village to teach about the faith, convince most
males to join and then performed circumcision on them. Then when the
circumcised men were agonizing in pain, the Jews came in and conquered
them. It was an acceptable thing then but seems grossly barbaric to us
today.
(The Bible tells us about circumcision as it is. Stories such as the
circumcision and slaughter of the Shechemites (Genesis 34)
There are some people alive today that can in my opinion see some of the
teachings as already out dated and perhaps even barbaric.
>
> Michael:
>
>> I too have issues with some teachings but also see that baby s
> teps
>> are still required because of the general ignorance and deeply
>> superstitious of the majority of people today.
>
> I would be interested in hearing what your issues are with some of the
> teachings. That's the sort of thing we can talk about here, and
> perhaps, through consultation, resolve them.
The issues that I have, have been scrutinized by myself through reading
the teachings and conversations with other Baha'i. I fear if I make too
much of it, it will come across as me trying to say others are incorrect
and I am correct and if I continue further it may be construed as me
trying to convert others to my opinions on the teachings.
drgoplayer
idea what society
will be like in 1000 or 5000 years.
Tom
..
Douglas McAdam
Way back in the early 70s I recall such things as Futurology and
Futurism in the colleges. They were using the computer and growth
curves, stats, etc. to predict what society would be like in 50 years
etc. Don't hear much about that anymore. Then there was to book
about 1984 and Future Shock by Toefler that was interesting. I often
think that if we just looked at our present day characteristics and
imagined their opposite we might get an idea of the future. For
example the future will probably not has racial, religious, gender,
class or other prejudices, no wars, no pollution of the environments,
etc.. But there will always be tests and difficulties for our
spiritual growth. I look back in my own life and see how years ago I
had tests I don't have today and today tests I will probably not have
in the future.
Then there is the obvious and wide spread problem of the double
standard in which we learn of a so called Utopia of the future and see
its opposite today. Or we hear wonderful things being said in TV
religious programs, or listening to the clergy tell us about sin and
evil, etc. We know we are supposed to have love and unity but what we
see are events that appear opposite to what any religion teaches.
They say the double standard of adults is the chief cause of mental
illness in children. It causes stress and anxiety and we are raised
to be conditioned to seek chemicals as a remedy, i.e. drugs, alcohol,
etc.
Questions that often come up to me with youth are such as "why do we
warn people about drugs and alcohol, tobacco etc. and yet produce it
and sell them legally? "Why them an not other drugs" "Why give tax
money to the tobacco growers?", "Why the electoral college?", "Why
political parties is we are to be united", etc.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
On Jan 10, 2010, at 10:23 AM, piedmont wrote:
> The issues that I have, have been scrutinized by myself through
> reading the teachings and conversations with other Baha'i. I fear if
> I make too much of it, it will come across as me trying to say
> others are incorrect and I am correct and if I continue further it
> may be construed as me trying to convert others to my opinions on
> the teachings.
Well my friend, are you then not open to possibly changing your mind
or not?
We are supposed to consult, not debate and argue. We have the
Covenant, the Official Interpreter, the Perfect Exemplar and the House
of Justice and this Baha'i Revelation begins the Baha'i Cycle so I
doubt very much there are any Baha'i Teachings that will not hold up
under scrutiny by limited human critters such as what we are
currently. So feel free to mention what concerns you and be open to
"another point of view"
regards,
doug
Suzanne
> "Flawed from a future perspective", Is it not correct that teachings of
> old can seem flawed to us in this day and age? So, from a "future
> perspective", folks in the future will probably see some teachings for
> today as flawed.
Hi Michael,
I really don't think people in the future will see the Revelation of
Baha'u'llah as flawed, but as absolultely perfect and flawless. They
will also understand things from our Writings which we cannot as of
yet even imagine. Our Revelation is vast and it will take ages and
cycles to be able to unravel it all, if anyone ever can. Here are
some of the passages which make me think this is true:
"How vast is the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh! How great the magnitude of
His blessings showered upon humanity in this day! And yet, how poor,
how inadequate our conception of their significance and glory! This
generation stands too close to so colossal a Revelation to appreciate,
in their full measure, the infinite possibilities of His Faith, the
unprecedented character of His Cause, and the mysterious dispensations
of His Providence."
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 24)
So, actually, I think the people in the future will undertand our
Revelation far better than we do.
Here is a passage where Shoghi Effendi explains the processes we've
been going through:
"The long ages of infancy and childhood, through which the human race
had to pass, have receded into the background. Humanity is now
experiencing the commotions invariably associated with the most
turbulent stage of its evolution, the stage of adolescence, when the
impetuosity of youth and its vehemence reach their climax, and must
gradually be superseded by the calmness, the wisdom, and the maturity
that characterize the stage of manhood. Then will the human race reach
that stature of ripeness which will enable it to acquire all the
powers and capacities upon which its ultimate development must
depend."
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 202)
So if our stage is now like an adolescent, then it is adolescents who,
without a great deal of understanding, see a lot of things as being
flawed. However, mature people try to understand where things are
coming from rather than condemn through ignorance. And we are told
that the people in the future, in the Golden Age, will be very mature,
and also very spiritual:
"A race of men," is [Baha'u'llah's] written promise, "incomparable in
character, shall be raised up which, with the feet of detachment, will
tread under all who are in heaven and on earth, and will cast the
sleeve of holiness over all that hath been created from water and
clay."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 31)
This, and other quotes about Baha'u'llah being the "supreme
Manifestation of God" and others in the future being under His shadow,
make me think that people in the future will never consider the
Revelation of Baha'u'llah as being flawed, but perfect beyond our
wildest dreams.
All best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
> "Flawed from a future perspective", Is it not correct that teachings of
> old can seem flawed to us in this day and age? So, from a "future
> perspective", folks in the future will probably see some teachings for
> today as flawed.
Sorry, Michael. I don't mean to overwhelm you with quotes, but I
think that these quotes are good to read and reflect on. Baha'is
often concentrate on the fact that all Manifestations of God are the
same, but their missions are not. Baha'ullah's mission actually
greater than other Manifestations of God, because He is the one to
lead us to maturity. 'Abdu'l-Baha says:
"Briefly, we say a universal cycle in the world of existence signifies
a long duration of time, and innumerable and incalculable periods and
epochs. In such a cycle the Manifestations appear with splendor in the
realm of the visible until a great and supreme Manifestation makes the
world the center of His radiance. His appearance causes the world to
attain to maturity, and the extension of His cycle is very great.
Afterward, other Manifestations will arise under His shadow, Who
according to the needs of the time will renew certain commandments
relating to material questions and affairs, while remaining under His
shadow.
We are in the cycle which began with Adam, and its supreme
Manifestation is Bahá'u'lláh."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 161)
And Shoghi Effendi says:
"After Bahá'u'lláh many Prophets will, no doubt, appear, but they will
be all under His shadow. Although they may abrogate the laws of the
Dispensation, in accordance with the needs and requirements of the age
in which they appear, they nevertheless draw their spiritual force
from this mighty Revelation. The Faith of Bahá'u'lláh constitutes,
indeed, the stage of maturity in the development of mankind. His
appearance has released such spiritual forces which will continue to
animate, for many long years to come, the world in its development.
Whatever progress may be achieved in the later ages-after the
unification of the whole human race is achieved -- will be but
improvements in the machinery of the world. For the machinery itself
has already been created by Bahá'u'lláh. The task of continually
improving and perfecting this machinery is one which later Prophets
will be called upon to achieve. They will move and work within the
orbit of Bahá'í cycle."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
believer, November 14, 1935) 474; Lights of Guidance, p. 473)
, And, while a new Manifestation of God may appear after a thousand
years, the Cycle which was started by Baha'u'llah, will last five
hundred thousand years, we are told:
"...From this thou canst imagine the magnitude of the Bahá'í cycle --
a cycle that must extend over a period of at least five hundred
thousand years."
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 102)
So we are in the very early days of something amazingly great, which I
am convinced the future will look on with love, awe and profound
admiration.
All best wishes,
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
I think "flawed" is the wrong word to use. As we look back in history
to say the Christian dispensation and before we can say those older
teachings would appear flawed to us in terms of application to today's
needs but they were not for their own period. And of course not all
would be considered "flawed" in that respect either because the Ten
Commandments are certainly not flawed or inept for today are they?
My understanding is that the next Manifestation will be a Law Giver,
not revealing new or additional knowledge for we have all we need for
now and long distant future. What is there after achieving World
Unity and the Kingdom of God on earth except the goal of unity in the
distant worlds of outer space?
regards,
doug
farihin
That's about the best thing I've heard. Of course Allah has mentioned
in the Quran about how belief must be accompanied by actions and good
deeds.
In Surah 103 Allah says:
بِسْمِ اللَّه
ِ الرَّحْمَٰن
ِ الرَّحِيمِ
وَالْعَصْرِ [١
٠٣:١]
By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
﴿١﴾
إِنَّ الْإِنْ
سَانَ لَفِي خُ
سْرٍ [١٠٣:٢]
Verily Man is in loss,
﴿٢﴾
إِلَّا الَّذِ
ينَ آمَنُوا وَ
عَمِلُوا الصَ
ّالِحَاتِ وَت
َوَاصَوْا
بِالْحَقِّ وَ
تَوَاصَوْا بِ
الصَّبْرِ [١٠٣:
٣]
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together)
in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.
Meaning you must have faith in Allah AND do righteous deeds (praying,
truthfulness, etc) AND enjoin what Allah has enjoined AND calling
people to patience in doing so. Then our life is not in vain.
Bahaism is somewhat similar to shiism whereby they just wait for they
Mahdi and do practically nothing, believing they're saved, etc.
farihin
Scientifically and even logically. Even if I can prove it, most
bahai's won't give due credit to those findings and simply say that
its 'allegorical'.
Suzanne Gerstner
As in the Qur'an, some passages are actually meant to be understood
metaphorically, but I spent many years looking for the fatal flaw in the
Baha'i Writings, and never found it. I have found misunderstandings in m
y
own previous thinking, but have found the Baha'i Writings to be perfect i
n
every way, including giving us the prescription for a united world.
All best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
> Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together)
> in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.
>
> Meaning you must have faith in Allah AND do righteous deeds (praying,
> truthfulness, etc) AND enjoin what Allah has enjoined AND calling
> people to patience in doing so. Then our life is not in vain.
Yes. We have the same teaching in slightly different words. Here's
one example:
"Although a person of good deeds is acceptable at the Threshold of the
Almighty, yet it is first "to know," and then "to do."... By faith is
meant, first, conscious knowledge, and second, the practice of good
deeds."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 549)
Farihin wrote:
> Bahaism is somewhat similar to shiism whereby they just wait for they
> Mahdi and do practically nothing, believing they're saved, etc.
You are mistaken. Baha'is are not waiting for the Mahdi. They
believe He has come. And they strive to live the teachings of their
Faith out in their lives. Nobody just asssumes they are saved and
don't have to do anything. That is not our belief but the belief of
certain Christians.
All best wishes,
Suzanne
mike
> Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together)
> in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.
>
> Meaning you must have faith in Allah AND do righteous deeds (praying,
> truthfulness, etc) AND enjoin what Allah has enjoined AND calling
> people to patience in doing so. Then our life is not in vain.
>
> Bahaism is somewhat similar to shiism whereby they just wait for they
> Mahdi and do practically nothing, believing they're saved, etc.
We have decreed that war shall be waged in the path of God with the
armies of wisdom and utterance, and of a goodly character and
praiseworthy deeds. Thus hath it been decided by Him Who is the All-
Powerful, the Almighty. There is no glory for him that committeth
disorder on the earth after it hath been made so good. Fear God, O
people, and be not of them that act unjustly.
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 23)
Perhaps you were unaware of what Baha'is really believe. There is a
freely available searchable index online called Ocean that will allow
you to read up on Baha'u'llah first hand.
Douglas McAdam
I have had and still have the same experiences. Years ago, when I was
a new Baha'i, I ran into some things in the Writings I did not
understand and some I disagreed with and one of my old mentors told me
to keep on deepening and in time I will understand these things and
sure enough I did. That taught me that we, in our present condition
from growing up in a materialistic world with a lack of proper
holistic education, often do not understand things because of our
limited condition, the very illness for which the Manifestations come
to heal with the Divine Remedy.
When it comes to differences of opinions Baha'u'llah has given us the
principle of consultation so we can establish and maintain unity and
going along with this is the principle of the harmony of faith and
reason, and for sure it will not work properly unless we acquire the
needed virtues and overcome our ego conditioning. Who among us is
God's Official Interpreter that can tell what is to be taken literally
and what is an allegory or metaphor? Certainly not me but we Baha'is,
unlike other religions of the past, have the Revealed Word written
down when revealed by Baha'u'llah and an Official Interpreter and
Exemplar of the Faith as well as the Centre of the Covenant appointed
by Baha'u'llah Himself and so we are not going to find division like
previous religions have.
All this and more is available to any who seek Truth, which reminds me
of another principle of Baha'u'llah in which He tells us to
independently investigate truth and how best to do this.
In short all the evidence, all the facts, all that we need is there
for anyone who is truly seeking Truth.
regards,
doug
piedmont
There are beliefs, laws and teachings in the faith that I don't believe
at this point in my life, they just don't make sense to me, or they seem
wrong, incorrect or possibly misinterpreted.
If I can ever accept them, well, I don't know. But, it is my
understanding that, it is ok for me to say to myself that something is
nonsense as long as I do not start running around telling everyone else
that they must see things my way and telling others that they are wrong
to believe such and such and my interpretation is the correct one, is
this not correct?
The things I have a problem with have been beat to death here and as I
stated, I have spoken to a few Baha'i that I felt were proficient in the
teachings that they could give a responsible quote as well as done much
reading myself. Continuing to rehash would not be helpful at this point.
Your point of consultation I believe has more to do with common matters,
not what a person is ready or able to believe. For example if a LSA
consults and issues a statement we are obliged to go along for the
greater good or the NSA also, But what I believe or don't believe or am
able to believe cannot be consulted on in the Administrative type of
consultation. You cannot make me change my mind by way of Consultation.
Regards,
Michael Willsey
compx2
I don't know what it was precisely that made you comment to me, but I
assure you I read your words. Not all Baha'is are like the ones you
read here. Some of us live in a diverse world, seeing people doing
God's work all around us, a world Baha'u'llah lived in, a world of
people, intentions, deeds and well, yes, strange beliefs.
It is the arrogance of organized religions that says that the strange
beliefs of others are worse than our strange beliefs. I hope that
some Baha'is eventually catch on to that fact. But for now, well,
just know that some of us do see diversity, good intentions, and don't
judge people by their religions, but rather by the content of their
character.
Thanks for being here. Although I am a Baha'i surrounded by Baha'is I
feel so alone here.
--Kent
> وَالْعَصْرِ [Ù
¡
> ٠٣:١]
> By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
> ﴿١﴾
>
> إِنَّ الْإِنْ
> سَانَ لَفِي خÙ
> سْرٍ [١٠٣:٢]
> Verily Man is in loss,
> ﴿٢﴾
>
> إِلَّا الَّذِ
> ينَ آمَنُوا وÙ
Ž
> عَمِلُوا الصَ
> ّالِحَاتِ وَت
> َوَاصَوْا
> بِالْحَقِّ وَ
> تَوَاصَوْا بِ
> الصَّبْرِ [١٠Ù
£:
> ٣]
> Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together)
> in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.
>
> Meaning you must have faith in Allah AND do righteous deeds (praying,
> truthfulness, etc) AND enjoin what Allah has enjoined AND calling
> people to patience in doing so. Then our life is not in vain.
>
> Bahaism is somewhat similar to shiism whereby they just wait for they
> Mahdi and do practically nothing, believing they're saved, etc.- Hide quo
ted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
compx2
thing to do, being a Baha'i and sharing thoughts with the people who
show up here. I applaud your efforts to bring reason to this group.
No doubt every Baha'i who answers you except me will say, in some
'round about way, to get your head right, that the errors you see are
evidence of you being wrong. This is the Baha'i Faith as I see it
now, and golly, it is not MY Baha'i Faith. It just appears to be that
of all the other Baha'is, and is causing in me a crisis of faith. I
don't like the Faith as it is presented, as it exists. I like the
Faith of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi instead.
So I urge you to find answers to your questions from within the
Writings and any other sources that help you. I assure you
Baha'u'llah wants that from you, for what my assurances are worth to
you.
Further, it is my contention that I keep silent to these issues the
Baha'i Faith will become further intrenched in its arrogant, one-size-
fits-all mentality and become more marginalized and less accepting of
views that are completely in line with the Writings, but not in line
with the main-stream Baha'i beliefs.
Obviously I am not saying the same about your or your views, only that
I see no inconsistency myself in any view that you hold with the
Baha'i Faith if you see no such inconsistency yourself. You should
investigate everything independently, in my opinion, and strive to be
a Baha'i only if you can do so in good conscience. No one but the
Baha'i Administration has the right to advise you for or against
calling yourself a Baha'i, and in my opinion anyone who does is doing
a disservice to the Baha'i Faith.
Thanks for reading. Warm Baha'i Love, --Kent
> Michael Willsey- Hide quoted text -
piedmont
snip
Kent,
My suggestion from my brief observation which I hope helps you with your
crisis of faith. We need as much patience with our self as well as with
all others. I always try to remember that we are all equal but we are
all at various levels, that is the truth and mentioned in the teachings.
As in all faiths, people gravitate to a faith for too often selfish
reasons and therefore flawed reasons. One can only hope that they will
learn quickly! ha, ha. I agree with you that the best approach is to
self study but seek interpretation from those you feel close to and
trust. It can help to here a different view or perspective. But take
everything with a grain of salt.
As far as others saying, "round about, get your head straight and you
will get it", is I hope coming from good intentions and a valid point of
view sometimes. I do understand the teachings which say that it may take
time to comprehend any or all teachings and that in a sense, once we do
reach a certain level of awareness, then we might just get it or maybe
not ever. But that is alright if some things we just don't 'get it', is
what would be nicer way to convey the message.
I fear there are many things I will never get. I have wondered what I
would do if I was ever voted onto a LSA, (yeah, right! LOL) As I at
first thought that I could not be apart of a ruling where I thought the
teaching was not right. But I figure (maybe incorrectly) that I could
vote against, voting my conscience, what I would have an issue with
would be going along with others to make it appear to be a unified vote.
I could never change my vote to make it appear unanimous.
Regards,
Michael Willsey
Suzanne
> My suggestion from my brief observation which I hope helps you with your
> crisis of faith. We need as much patience with our self as well as with
> all others.
Dear Michael,
How very true. We may all have far to go, but we are all on a
journey, and the main thing is to get started and learn all the
lessons we can life and from the teachings.
Michael:
I agree with you that the best approach is to
> self study but seek interpretation from those you feel close to and
> trust. It can help to here a different view or perspective. But take
> everything with a grain of salt.
Yes. I agree with that. We do need to study the Writings ourselves,
and contemplate them, but it's also good to consult with others and
get different perspectives because, as 'Abdu'l-Baha says, (and I
paraphrase), from the clash of differing opinions the spark of truth
comes forth. But like you said, you can't trust everyone to really
know what the Writings say or understand their intent, as the Guardian
pointed out:
"There are many who have some superficial idea of what the Cause
stands for. They, therefore, present it together with all sorts of
ideas that are their own. As the Cause is still in its early days we
must be most careful lest we fall into this error and injure the
Movement we so much adore. There is no limit to the study of the
Cause. The more we read the Writings, the more truths we can find in
Them, the more we will see that our previous notions were erroneous.'
So, although individual insights can be enlightening and helpful, they
can also be misleading. The friends must therefore learn to listen to
the views of others without being over-awed or allowing their faith to
be shaken, and to express their own views without pressing them on
their fellow Baha'is."
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual
believer, May 27, 1966; Lights of Guidance, Page: 313)
> As far as others saying, "round about, get your head straight and you
> will get it", is I hope coming from good intentions and a valid point of
> view sometimes.
Right, Michael. This is the standpoint of humility and an awareness
that there's much we don't know in this vast Revelation of
Baha'u'llah. It's from this point that we have the ultimum ability to
grow in understanding.
Michael
> I fear there are many things I will never get. I have wondered what I
> would do if I was ever voted onto a LSA, (yeah, right! LOL) As I at
> first thought that I could not be apart of a ruling where I thought the
> teaching was not right. But I figure (maybe incorrectly) that I could
> vote against, voting my conscience, what I would have an issue with
> would be going along with others to make it appear to be a unified vote.
> I could never change my vote to make it appear unanimous.
You're right. If there's something you don't agree with it is your
responsibility and duty to voice that opinion at an Assembly meeting,
and then vote according to what you believe to be true and right. It
is only after a vote has been cast and a decision made, that everyone
needs to support it and not backbite against the Assembly, because
this is destructive of unity. 'Abdu'l-Baha assures us that if a
mistake has been made, if everyone supports the Assembly in unity,
then the fault will be discovered and corrected. So all will
ultimately be well. And then there may be the possiblity that you
yourself are the one with the blind spot and the majority was seeing
something you were not, and you will have the opportunity to see
something work that you didn't think would. I have found this to
happen sometimes too. This is where respect for the views and
opinions of others comes in. We all see different things, and we all
have certain blind spots. That's why consultation is so brilliant if
we do it well. We get the insights from others who can see things we
do not, and we can share things they may not see, and in the end we
get a full picture of the truth. At least that's the ideal.
I hope one day you are elected to the LSA. There's much to learn from
the experience if you approach it with humility, love and a
willingness to serve. You really seem to have a lot of the right
qualities, Michael. I appreciate your postings -- your frankness and
willngness to learn.
All best wishes,
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
I appreciate your need to avoid further rehashing of things past but I
do have some general thoughts for you to consider.
I'm sure we all have certain areas of concern over what we believe and
what Baha'u'llah says we should believe and do. Originally, when I
first heard about the Faith I was attracted to learn more and my
teacher more or less gave me a whole bunch of books and told me to
read for myself since it was supposed to be independent
investigation. She later became my wife. I looked at this big box of
books and asked "where do I start" and she said it was like a merry-
go-round and no matter where I got on I would have the same glorious
ride. So I picked up the Seven Valleys and went through it and I
recall writing in one margin "I disagree" and now that I look back I
realized I disagreed because I was acting out of my old world
conditioning. Often in ensuing years I would disagree or find
something appearing as contradictions and was told to dig deeper and I
would understand and I can truthfully say I did and it worked and so
now when I run into something that appears confusing or contradictor I
know it is merely because of my own limited condition.
Maybe we are prone to accepting a religion that agrees with us instead
of changing what we believe into reality as revealed by the
Manifestations of God. I recall a well known Bahai from the Middle
East saying that Americans tend to want to humanize the
Manifestations based on their materialistic cultural upbringing.
Being raised as a Presbyterian and finding my questions not being
satisfactorily answered as a youth I sort of lost my belief in
religion but not of God. And when I read Baha'u'llah's Writings I
remember thinking to myself, "there really was a Moses and Jesus" and
it literally raised my spiritual level.
Regarding consultation I have a much different impression of what this
means based on looking at the principle as in the context of other
quotes related to how we should act towards one another in terms of
cooperation in achieving our overall purpose. To me consultation is
how souls should communicate with one another. It is not just a
problem solving tool when differences appear. It is a spiritual form
of communication between living souls in seed form, which we all are
for sure.
However the application or use of this form of communication depends
on the amount, degree and type of virtues we have acquired as well as
the overall knowledge we have gained from actual experience in
application of the Writings to our practical living experiences.
So I would say you might want to consider finding some souls whom you
have trust in and whom you believe are well experienced and deepened.
Another tool I use, and this too is based on my understanding of the
Writings where they say all that appears here are reflections of the
spiritual world and we need to apply some sign to spiritual realities
that to us represent such things. Again this is something an old
friend and former mentor shared with me. I often write a letter to
the Beloved Master or to some expert in the next world asking for
advice. It helps me clearly set forth my problems and before I finish
the letter I get some inspiration as to how best to deal with it.
God bless you,
doug
mike3
wrote:
<snip>
> Perhaps you should start correcting the faults of Baha'is by looking to y
our
> own self as the quote suggests.
>
But what happens once you correct whatever problem you have that you
claim someone else does? Does that solve their problem, or what? If
not,
how to effect large scale change in the world for the positive? Though
I
don't think "backbiting" others would possibly ever help (otherwise it
wouldn't be talked about so negatively).
mike3
Suzanne
> > Perhaps you should start correcting the faults of Baha'is by looking to y
> our
> > own self as the quote suggests.
Michael wrote:
>
> But what happens once you correct whatever problem you have that you
> claim someone else does? Does that solve their problem, or what?
Dear Michael,
From a Baha'i point of view, as individuals we are not responsible for
resolving other people's problems. Earlier on in that quote it says:
"Each of us is responsible for one life only, and that is our own.
Each of us is immeasurably far from being "perfect as our heavenly
father is perfect" and the task of perfecting our own life and
character is one that requires all our attention, our will-power and
energy. If we allow our attention and energy to be taken up in
efforts to keep others right and remedy their faults, we are wasting
precious time..."
(Shoghi Effendi: Living the Life, Page: 3)
Everyone has their own path of development, and we are all far from
being perfect It's the Revelation of Baha'u'llah which will change us
though. Not trying to rectify each other's faults. It's up to each
one of us to read the Writings and strive to bring our lives into
conformity with them. However the Writings are vast, and none of us
will ever be able to do all of it in a single lifetime. We come from
a culture which is saturated with Old World Order thinking. It will
taken generations for all the teachings to reach everyone. So we need
to be patient with ourselves and with others. 'Abdu'l-Baha says we
need to look on others with a "sin-covering eye". He says when
someone has ten good qualities and one bad, to look at the ten good
and ignore the bad one; and when they have ten bad qualities and one
good one, then to look at the good one.
There are occasions when the faults of others can be harmful to other
individuals and/or the Baha'i community. At that point, there are
institutions which can help. If it's in a local community, the
Assembly can be consulted. There's also are Auxiliary Board Members
for protection of the Faith who can be consulted, and they can speak
with the indvidual. If someone is breaking the law of the land --
stealing or something -- then naturally it is the police you would
call. But it isn't for individuals to take it upon themselves to
correct others. They can share their thoughts and ideas and make
suggestions, but the things which changes others the fastest is
modeling good behavior. Most people do tend to be changed by being in
the presence of someone who is loving and kind and can overlook their
shortcomings. It makes them *want* to grow spiritually and be all
they can be. And this is what Baha'u'llah wants. He says to obey His
laws out of love.
All best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne Gerstner
> But what happens once you correct whatever problem you have that you
> claim someone else does? Does that solve their problem, or what? If
> not,
> how to effect large scale change in the world for the positive? Though
> I
> don't think "backbiting" others would possibly ever help (otherwise it
> wouldn't be talked about so negatively).
I was looking at this question again this morning, and I would say the
obvious answer to how to effect large scale change in the world is to
teach the Faith of Baha'u'llah. The purpose of Baha'u'llah is to
effect large scale change in the world:
"...is not the object of every Revelation to effect a transformation
in the whole character of mankind, a transformation that shall
manifest itself both outwardly and inwardly, that shall affect both
its inner life and external conditions? For if the character of
mankind be not changed, the futility of God's universal Manifestations
would be apparent
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 240-241)
Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for today, and He has brought
us the teachings which are the Will of God, and the spirit of the Age
in which we live. We, as individuals, are powerless to change
anyone, but we can assist in this process. We can plant the seed of
the love of Baha'u'llah and share His words with others. Once they
have taken hold in the hearts, then change will happen. But it won't
necessarily happen if the words have only penetrated the head and not
the heart. In order for that to happen, we need to be worthy
instruments for conveying the message, and that means that our own
egos need to step aside so that God can use us to teach. Then the
words will have effect. So Baha'u'llah says that the first person we
need to teach is our own selves:
"Whoso ariseth among you to teach the Cause of his Lord, let him,
before all else, teach his own self, that his speech may attract the
hearts of them that hear him. Unless he teacheth his own self, the
words of his mouth will not influence the heart of the seeker."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 277)
And then, when a seed has been planted, often it needs time to grow.
It isn't an instant thing. So love and care are required. And even
once it starts to grow, you can't fault a sapling for not being a
mature, fruit-bearing tree yet. That takes time and patience.
Christ, and Baha'u'llah in the Hidden Words, both say that a tree
without fruit is fit for the fire. But in Gleanings Baha'u'llah gives
us more of the sublties around the idea that this takes time. He
says,
"Consider, moreover, how the fruit, ere it is formed, lieth
potentially within the tree. Were the tree to be cut into pieces, no
sign nor any part of the fruit, however small, could be detected. When
it appeareth, however, it manifesteth itself, as thou hast observed,
in its wondrous beauty and glorious perfection. Certain fruits,
indeed, attain their fullest development only after being severed from
the tree."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 155)
So to condemn a sapling for not bearing fruit would be unfair to the
tree, and would be totally lacking in insight. The same would be true
for us to assume that others are not changing just because we don't
see the change. This would be presumptuous and arrogant on our part.
God (or Baha'u'llah) is the agent of change. Our work is to teach and
to love and accept. It's between God and human sould when change will
happen, and *what* will change. There are so many admonitions in the
Writings, and different people are living out different ones in their
lives and blind to ones they haven't yet developed themselves, but
which others may be quite advanced in developing.
Anyway, just a few of my thoughts from my morning meditation. Once
again, it just shows that we
All best wishes,
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
I think maybe we might suffer from making things far too complicated
when in reality they are quite simple.
I'm reminded of the fact that unless we are in touch with the purpose
of a thing we are out of touch with its reality. We all know the
overall purpose of life as articulated in the Baha'i Writings such as
to know and love God, to carry forward and ever-advancing
civilization, to establish and maintain love and unity in the world,
etc. but how many really know of the specific purpose assigned to
individuals which, if realized, will achieve all the other larger
purposes named above. Here is a relevant quote to consider -
“What is the purpose of our lives? To acquire virtues.” PT
p.177
If we but go about our business of fulfilling this purpose then all
others will be fulfilled. How can we help others acquire virtues is
easy and it involves teaching in unique ways. First of all we can
share with people the application technique from the Writings which
enables us to determine what virtues we need and how to acquire.
Here is a portion of an essay I have from an old deepening program
that also might help. As you will see there are references from the
Writings but far too many to include in a wee email unless you want to
see them. If so I can send them separately.
SHALL WE TELL PEOPLE THEIR FAULTS?
We think, "If he realized how much he hurts me, he wouldn't do it." Or
we say, "If she only knew that she is this way, she would change " But
is this true?
Faults or undeveloped virtues that produce character deficiencies are
part of the person. There is only one thing that CAN correct them:
spiritual growth W/G p 52(a,e); W/G p 54(u,ee,ff); p 55(jj); p.56(uu)
And the growth of a soul is a matter between himself and God W/G p
56(qq-ww) There is just one thing I can do to help the other fellow to
grow: I can LOVE him, backing my love with prayer. W/G p 75(q-v)
When I tell a person his faults, do I lift him up to those heights of
spiritual power where he can be changed? It is far more likely that I
will cast him down into some negative state of mind where he has NO
ACCESS to his own latent divinity into anger or frustration, into
disappointment and unhappiness, into remorse or a sense of guilt. A
truly spiritual person knows how to climb out of these low negative
states of mind through prayer and meditations but most of us are still
so human that we DON'T do so very readily, and in such human states of
emotion our faults grow greater instead of being overcome.
In short, if I keep telling the other fellow that he is selfish, he is
either going to reject this attack in anger, or accept it as true and
increase his own sense of inadequacy or inferiority He won't be any
easier to live with. All I do in either case is to add to his
spiritual impotence W/G p 76(bb)
In the spiritual growth that corrects a fault in the other fellow,
some special virtue that counteracts that deficiency must be brought
out. So what should I do instead of pointing out his faults? First of
all I should pray for his growth - bring divine power into the
situation. Then I should do all I can to stimulate his spiritual
growth, and try to bring out the virtue that is absent. It has to be
there, latent, because every soul can reflect every attribute of God.
W/G p.33 (l,m) Thus if I am hurt because my friend shows me a lack of
consideration, I should watch for a situation where he DOES show
consideration to someone, and praise him for it I might say how
lovable that trait makes him seem! This might be an impetus to his
trying to be more considerate in the future. But let me not spoil the
effect of this effort by saying, "1 just wish you would show me that
much consideration"' For that kind of comment expresses an entirely
different nature from the one that is only concerned with helping my
friend.
Concentrating, thinking and communicating about evil only increases
it. It is the natural human thing to do. W/G p.49 (p) l must work to
overcome it, call on the power of God to eliminate the habit. The
love of God is what can change my bad habits and MAKE me control the
natural tendency to find fault. W/G p.69 (uu), p.81(g-i) And too, who
am I, with all of my faults to be self-righteously condemning the
other fellow for some imperfection that he has not yet corrected? W/G
p.104 (y,cc,ee);105 (e
God bless,
doug