Prophecies of the Tablet of the Holy Mariner
Aziz Mboya
Hi all,
I recently had a deepening on the Tablet of the Holy Mariner
and compiled interpretations and references from other writings
that relate to the Tablet. In my understanding, the main points to
note are: the prophecy of the appearance of Dependent Prophets
(the first of whom was Abdu'l-Baha) and the martyrdom of the
second Dependent Prophet who will appear. If you would like
a copy of the writeup and have thoughts on it, please let me know
Best regards,
Aziz
Genj...@webtv.net
your understanding, the appearance of teo Dependent Prophets, the first
of Whom is 'Abdu'l-Baha, and the second of Whom will appear in the
future.
Baha'u'llah's stateent that no Manifestation of God will appear before
one thousand years from His time would indicate that your understanding
of this Tablet cannot be correct.
'Abdu'l-Baha's repeated witten Tablets confirming that He('Abdu'-Baha )
was not a Prophet but the Center of the Covenant, the Perfect Exemplar,
and the Interpreter of Baha'u'llah's Words, as well as the visibl
expression of servitude to the Threshold of Baha, further confirm that
'abdu'l-Baha was no Prophet, dependent or otherwise.
'Abdu'l-Baha's own statements concerning future Prophets Who would arise
after 'one thusand or thousands of years' and Who would be dependent on
Baha'u'llah insofar as the source of Their inspiration was concerned,
but each of Whom would 'do whatsoever He willeth' as far as Their
relation to mankind was concerned, a reference to the Most great
Infellibillity possessed only by the Manifestations of God, as explained
by Baha'u'llah Himself in Ishraqat,which 'Abdu'l-Baha did not possess,
further confirms this.
Shoghi Effendi in his wonderful Letter Dispensation of Baha'u'llah,
gives all these quotes in context of his full exposition of the
underlying spiritual verities of the Baha'i Faith.
As for the understanding of the Tablet of the Holy Mariner, might it not
be that after Baha'u'llahm, the Successor and Center o the Covenant
would be 'Abdu'l-Baha, and that 'Abdu'l-Baha would appoint Shoghi
Effendi Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, and that he would then do very
great tings for the Faith, and having doe a certan amount, would be
called unexpectedly to God, and suddenly pass from this earth having
appoited the Hands of the Cause as Chief Stewards of the Baha'i Faith,
who would gther around his body and weep, etc?
This is what actually happened in the History of the Baha'i Faith, and
since 'Abdu'l-Baha has said that in this Tablet Baha'u'llah has fully
foretold future events, and that it concerns the Covenant and firmness
in it, and told the Baha'is to study it at times of Covenantal crises,
as did later the guardian and the Hands of the Cause-
Might this understanding of this mysterious Tablet better fit the facts,
and the warning connected with it by 'Abdu'l-Baha?
Especially since this Tablet, revealed during the end of the Baghdad
period, clearly foretells in its mostly untranslated Persian half, the
future tribulations of Baha'u'llah, and the Arabic Tablet, which we have
here, seems to start with His revelation of the Book of the Covenant,
and His Passing, and since Shoghi Effendi says in God Passes By that the
Lawh-i-Huriyyh, whch many feel does concern the coming of the Next
Manifestation of God, portrays events of a far remoter future,it would
seem that the Arabic Tablet under discussion may well foretell events of
a much nearer future to 1863.
When you overlay the historical events ontothis allegorical Tablet, they
seem to fit.This of course is only my own personal understanding, but
might it not fit better than one which contradicts the clear Text of the
Word?
I note also that Baha'u'llah, in His Most Holy Book, the Kitab-i-Aqdas,
revealed ten years after the Lawh-i-Mallahu'l-Quds(Holy Mariner).
contains an explicit forecast of a ' line of Aghsan(Branches, or male
descendants after Him,) endowed with authority to dispose of endowments
dedicated to charity, a line which could be broken before the election
of the Universal ouse of Justice in this world, and states that in such
a case the endowments revert to the 'people of Baha', a term Baha'u'llah
uses only three ways that I know of in His Writings, one, the entire
company of the baha'is, manifestly unfeasible, one the members of the
Universal House of Justice, manifestly impossible since hey wouldn'yt be
there yet, and one, the Hands of the Cause of God, to whom Baha'u'llah
also reffered as the champions of victory amidst mankind, they who speak
not till He has spoken.'
And to whom, in the same terms exactly, He refers apparently in the
Kitab-i-Aqdas.
And this is exactly what did happen, and i believe that he may well have
told us two different ways that it would happen this way.
There can be no question by any faithful believer that Baha'u'llah knew
exactly what would happen, and it is entirely possible that in these two
instances and perhaps others,He left allegorial and clear warnings of
the future events regarding the successorship of the Covenant.
In a realted event, te recent letter by President and Mrs. Clinton on
the passing of Ruhiyyih Khanum wheren they both praise here for her
role in continuing the internal stability of the Baha'i Faith, as one of
the Hands of the cause, constitutes, I believe, the firs time in History
an American President has openly upheld both the Covenant and the World
Order of Baha'u'llah.
As the Bab revealed and 'Abdu'l-Baha quoted when riding in a motorcar in
Washington, D.C.,'Oh, Baha'u'llah! What hast Thou done?
Anyway, thought I would share my own understanding of this matter on
here, if it is found worthy of being so shared.:-)
Regards, John
Aziz Mboya
There won't be a new Manifestation of God (Independent prophet)
in the next thousand years. That does not mean there won't be
any Dependent prophets. Also, who is it that gets martyred at the
end of the Tablet? So far, no central figure in the faith has been
martyred...
I could post how I arrive at those conclusions here on the list but the
document is rather long. For anyone who wishes. I can send them a
web address to get it from. [ Please send your requests directly to Aziz
at amb...@mediaone.net -Mod]
Regards,
Aziz
Genj...@webtv.net wrote:
--
-------------------------------------
Aziz Mboya
amb...@mediaone.net
Mehrdad Saririan
Aziz Mboya <amb...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:8c0ain$8fn$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> any Dependent prophets. Also, who is it that gets martyred at the
> end of the Tablet? So far, no central figure in the faith has been
> martyred...
>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Bab martyred?
-Mehrdad
Genj...@webtv.net
the next thousand years)'
'It is possible, however, that after the completion of a full thousand
years,certain Holy Beings will be empowered to deliver a
Revelation;this, however, will not be
through a Universal Manifestation.'
-'Abdu'-Baha, SWAB p.67
'The substance is, that prior to the completio ofa full thousand years,
no individual may presume to breathe a word.All must consider themselves
to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the
commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice.'
-ibid p. 68
'My purpose is this, that ere the expiration of a full thousand years no
one has the right to utter a single word, even to claim the station of
Guardianship.'
-'Abdu'l-Baha, Establishment of the Universal House of Justice,
Compilation of Compilations, Volume One,p.322, no.727.
How clearly He says there will be no Prophets or anyone else like it for
a full thousand years, no more 'Abdu'l-Baha's, and even no one is
allowed to claim the station of Guardianship which the covenant
-breakers tried to do,onl shoghi Effendi, who did not claim it but was
given it by 'Abdu'l-Baha.
Which leads us to your next question,
'Who is it that is martyred at the end of the Tablet?'
Firstly, the Tablet makes no reference to martyrdom, but to someone
being suddenly and unexpectedly called back to God.
So, the answer is, in my understanding, this is a reference to the
passing of Shoghi Effendi.
I thought I had made that clear, but now i do so.Hope this helps in
search for undersanding the mystical allusions of this Tablet.
Regards, John
Aziz Mboya
the ascension Baha'u'llah.
Aziz
Mehrdad Saririan wrote:
> Aziz Mboya <amb...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:8c0ain$8fn$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>
> > any Dependent prophets. Also, who is it that gets martyred at the
> > end of the Tablet? So far, no central figure in the faith has been
> > martyred...
> >
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Bab martyred?
>
> -Mehrdad
--
-------------------------------------
Aziz Mboya
amb...@mediaone.net
Aziz Mboya
Genj...@webtv.net wrote:
> 'My purpose is this, that ere the expiration of a full thousand years no
> one has the right to utter a single word, even to claim the station of
> Guardianship.'
>
> -'Abdu'l-Baha, Establishment of the Universal House of Justice,
> Compilation of Compilations, Volume One,p.322, no.727.
John,
In further reference to the quote above, I think it would be strange for
Abdu'l-Baha to state that he is "eagerly waiting for these holy ones to
appear" in the Tablet below then say above that none will appear in
1000 years. The Tablet below I believe is also a reference to
Dependent prophets.
|204. O phoenix of that immortal flame kindled in the sacred Tree!
|Bahá'u'lláh--may my life, my soul, my spirit be offered up as a sacrifice
..
..
|||I am waiting, eagerly waiting for these holy ones to appear; and yet,
|how long will they delay their coming? My prayer and ardent supplication,
|at eventide and at dawn, is that these shining stars may soon shed their
|radiance upon the world, that their sacred countenances may be unveiled
|to mortal eyes, that the hosts of divine assistance may achieve their
|victory, and the billows of grace, rising from His oceans above, may
|flow upon all mankind. Pray ye also and supplicate unto Him that through
|the bountiful aid of the Ancient Beauty these souls may be unveiled to
|the eyes of the world.
|
|The glory of God rest upon thee, and upon him whose face is illumined
|with that everlasting light that shineth from His Kingdom of Glory.
|
|-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
Regards,
Aziz
Fred Capp
refers to. If we but concentrate our energies & talents on teaching the
word of God. If we sacrifice our time & monies on spreading this holy
message might we not unveil other holy souls to all of mankind? Might
we not unravel the abstruse mysteries & reveal the gems that lay hidden
within our own souls? I don't remember exactly where it is in the writings
but I believe that Baha'u'llah said "Ye are the angels...if your feet be
firm..."
> >>> Aziz Mboya <amb...@mediaone.net> 03/31/00 07:47AM >>>
>
> Genj...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> > 'My purpose is this, that ere the expiration of a full thousand years no
> > one has the right to utter a single word, even to claim the station of
> > Guardianship.'
> >
> > -'Abdu'l-Baha, Establishment of the Universal House of Justice,
> > Compilation of Compilations, Volume One,p.322, no.727.
>
> John,
>
> In further reference to the quote above, I think it would be strange for
> Abdu'l-Baha to state that he is "eagerly waiting for these holy ones to
> appear" in the Tablet below then say above that none will appear in
> 1000 years. The Tablet below I believe is also a reference to
> Dependent prophets.
>
> |204. O phoenix of that immortal flame kindled in the sacred Tree!
> |Bah 'u'll h--may my life, my soul, my spirit be offered up as a sacrifice
> ..
> ..
> |||I am waiting, eagerly waiting for these holy ones to appear; and yet,
> |how long will they delay their coming? My prayer and ardent supplication,
> |at eventide and at dawn, is that these shining stars may soon shed their
> |radiance upon the world, that their sacred countenances may be unveiled
> |to mortal eyes, that the hosts of divine assistance may achieve their
> |victory, and the billows of grace, rising from His oceans above, may
> |flow upon all mankind. Pray ye also and supplicate unto Him that through
> |the bountiful aid of the Ancient Beauty these souls may be unveiled to
> |the eyes of the world.
> |
> |The glory of God rest upon thee, and upon him whose face is illumined
> |with that everlasting light that shineth from His Kingdom of Glory.
> |
> |-- `Abdu'l-Bah , Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
Aziz Mboya
Fred Capp wrote:
> Aziz, is it not possible that WE could be those holy souls that Abdu'l-Baha
> refers to. If we but concentrate our energies & talents on teaching the
> word of God. If we sacrifice our time & monies on spreading this holy
> message might we not unveil other holy souls to all of mankind? Might
> we not unravel the abstruse mysteries & reveal the gems that lay hidden
> within our own souls? I don't remember exactly where it is in the writings
> but I believe that Baha'u'llah said "Ye are the angels...if your feet be
> firm..."
An individual can definitely rise to great heights of knowledge and spirituality
(the valley of true poverty and absolute nothingness), which is the ultimate purpose
of divine revelation -- what God has desired for us. However, there are certain
statements in the tablet that I believe cannot be attributed to regular
believers. e.g.:
...that their sacred countenances may be unveiled to mortal eyes,
I interpret "mortal eyes" as us -- i.e. those who are fallible and whose
spiritual station and perfection is not guaranteed - the "luminaries" would
be the Dependent prophets.
Where it says they will "interpret every hidden meaning" may be a reference
to Sealed Prophecies. These are prophecies that can only be explained by
prophets (Independent or Dependent) based on their innate knowledge and
is proof of their prophethood (among other signs). A regular believer however
spiritual and knowledgeable would be unable to do this -- I'll try and get a
reference for this.
Where it says, "They shall raise their voices in every assembly" may be
referring to how their writings and teachings will be used in Baha'i
gatherings like (and in addition to) those of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.
I don't think we can reasonably expect a literal interpretation of the
phrase to be practically possible..
However, the Tablet of the Holy Mariner below, I think is much clearer
about the Dependent Prophets (handmaidens), and is the word of
Baha'u'llah (The Most Great Infallibility).
|Thereupon she summoned unto herself one maiden from her handmaidens,
The handmaidens are interpreted to be Dependent Prophets who will be sent
by Baha'u'llah in the course of the Baha'i era. Literally, a handmaiden is
a servant to the Maiden. It is interesting to note that Abdu'l-Baha who
was the first Dependent Prophet for this revelation referred to himself
as such.
|>As to my station, it is that of the servant of Bahá; `Abdu'l-Bahá, the
|>visible expression of servitude to the Threshold of the Abhá Beauty.
|>
|>-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
|And commanded her: "Descend into space from the mansions of eternity,
Baha'u'llah sends the Second Dependent Prophet to earth (the first
to appear out of the unknown).
There also exists a "Tablet of the Maiden" which has not been
translated to English (as far as I know). I would not be surprised if it
contained references to Dependent prophets.
Majnun
I always believed this to be in reference to the Baha'is who would live in
the way that Bahá'u'lláh has instructed us to live. Those illumined souls
who would give their lives in service to the Cause.
Warmly,
Scott
> |204. O phoenix of that immortal flame kindled in the sacred Tree!
> |Bahá'u'lláh--may my life, my soul, my spirit be offered up as a
> sacrifice
> ..
> ..
> |||I am waiting, eagerly waiting for these holy ones to appear; and yet,
> |how long will they delay their coming? My prayer and ardent
> supplication,
> |at eventide and at dawn, is that these shining stars may soon shed
> their
> |radiance upon the world, that their sacred countenances may be unveiled
> |to mortal eyes, that the hosts of divine assistance may achieve their
> |victory, and the billows of grace, rising from His oceans above, may
> |flow upon all mankind. Pray ye also and supplicate unto Him that
> through
> |the bountiful aid of the Ancient Beauty these souls may be unveiled to
> |the eyes of the world.
> |
> |The glory of God rest upon thee, and upon him whose face is illumined
> |with that everlasting light that shineth from His Kingdom of Glory.
> |
> |-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
>
> Regards,
>
> Aziz
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------
> Aziz Mboya
> amb...@mediaone.net
>
>
>
=====
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__________________________________________________
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Aziz Mboya
Genj...@webtv.net wrote:
> 'Abdu'l-Baha's repeated witten Tablets confirming that He('Abdu'-Baha )
> was not a Prophet but the Center of the Covenant, the Perfect Exemplar,
> and the Interpreter of Baha'u'llah's Words, as well as the visibl
> expression of servitude to the Threshold of Baha, further confirm that
> 'abdu'l-Baha was no Prophet, dependent or otherwise.
This debate keeps on coming up. To put it in the simplest terms: I recognise
Abdu'l-Baha was a Dependent prophet based on his innate knowledge (only
prophets have this) reflected in his writings as well as their spiritual perfection.
Also, when Abdu'l-Baha says "he is the *visible* expression of servitude to
the Threshold of Baha" that is a reference to the role of successorship/service
Dependent prophets play to the Independent prophet on earth and in the
invisible realm. I believe this is reflected in the following quotation from the
Tablet of the Holy Mariner:
|Thereupon she summoned unto herself one maiden from her handmaidens,
The handmaidens are interpreted to be Dependent Prophets who will be sent
by Baha'u'llah in the course of the Baha'i era. Literally, a handmaiden is
a servant to the Maiden. Note that Abdu'l-Baha who I believe was the first
Dependent Prophet for this revelation refers to himself as such.
|>As to my station, it is that of the servant of Bahá; `Abdu'l-Bahá, the
|>visible expression of servitude to the Threshold of the Abhá Beauty.
|>
|>-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
|And commanded her: "Descend into space from the mansions of eternity,
Baha'u'llah sends the Second Dependent Prophet to earth (the first
to appear out of the unknown).
> 'Abdu'l-Baha's own statements concerning future Prophets Who would arise
> after 'one thusand or thousands of years' and Who would be dependent on
> Baha'u'llah insofar as the source of Their inspiration was concerned,
> but each of Whom would 'do whatsoever He willeth' as far as Their
> relation to mankind was concerned, a reference to the Most great
> Infellibillity possessed only by the Manifestations of God, as explained
> by Baha'u'llah Himself in Ishraqat,which 'Abdu'l-Baha did not possess,
> further confirms this.
This passage refers to Independent prophets. A Universal Manifestation,
in my understanding, is one who inaugrates a new prophetic cycle like
Baha'u'llah has. So, there could be an Independent prophet bringing a
new revelation after a thousand years but not a Universal Manifestation
anytime soon..
> Shoghi Effendi in his wonderful Letter Dispensation of Baha'u'llah,
> gives all these quotes in context of his full exposition of the
> underlying spiritual verities of the Baha'i Faith.
As Baha'is we should see through *our own eyes* to truly recognise this
revelation - individual investigation. Shoghi Effendi was not incapable of
error (as I have said and demonstrated before) even though he was
infallible in the sense that he was the highest authority in the faith during
his Guardianship. Instances can be found where his interpretations conflict
with Baha'u'llah's writings. If you grasp Baha'u'llahs writings independently
(through your own eyes) you will readily notice where the Guardian's
interpretations conflict with with them -- showing Guardian was not free
from error. Here are a couple of quotes that I believe touch on this.
|2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
|
|The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom
|if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid
|thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and
|shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy
|neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily
|justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then
|before thine eyes.
|
|-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah, p.
|14. O ye two blessed souls! Your letters were received. They showed that
|ye have investigated the truth and have been freed from imitations and
|superstitions, that ye observe with your own eyes and not with those of
|others, hearken with your own ears and not with the ears of others, and
|discover mysteries with the help of your own consciences and not with those
|of others. For the imitator saith that such a man hath seen, such a man hath
|heard, and such a conscience hath discovered; in other words he dependeth
|upon the sight, the hearing and the conscience of others and hath no will of
|his own.
|
|-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
> As for the understanding of the Tablet of the Holy Mariner, might it not
> be that after Baha'u'llahm, the Successor and Center o the Covenant
> would be 'Abdu'l-Baha, and that 'Abdu'l-Baha would appoint Shoghi
> Effendi Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, and that he would then do very
> great tings for the Faith, and having doe a certan amount, would be
> called unexpectedly to God, and suddenly pass from this earth having
> appoited the Hands of the Cause as Chief Stewards of the Baha'i Faith,
> who would gther around his body and weep, etc?
Those weeping are "maids of heaven" in the Invisible Realm. The facts
surrounding the said individual in Tablet of the Holy Mariner do not fit
the life of Shoghi Effendi. The Tablet is mystical but I think the language
employed *means* a martyrdom. I don't think the sudden (but natural)
passing of an individual merits mention in the Tablet. Also, since the
Guardian was not a Dependent prophet (was not a "handmaiden" or
Servant of Baha'u'llah) I don't think that could be a reference to him.
> This is what actually happened in the History of the Baha'i Faith, and
> since 'Abdu'l-Baha has said that in this Tablet Baha'u'llah has fully
> foretold future events, and that it concerns the Covenant and firmness
> in it, and told the Baha'is to study it at times of Covenantal crises,
> as did later the guardian and the Hands of the Cause-
Those times are not necessarily over, especially when events in the Tablet
(as far as I can tell) have yet to occur.
> Might this understanding of this mysterious Tablet better fit the facts,
> and the warning connected with it by 'Abdu'l-Baha?
>
> Especially since this Tablet, revealed during the end of the Baghdad
> period, clearly foretells in its mostly untranslated Persian half, the
> future tribulations of Baha'u'llah, and the Arabic Tablet, which we have
> here, seems to start with His revelation of the Book of the Covenant,
> and His Passing, and since Shoghi Effendi says in God Passes By that the
> Lawh-i-Huriyyh, whch many feel does concern the coming of the Next
> Manifestation of God, portrays events of a far remoter future,it would
> seem that the Arabic Tablet under discussion may well foretell events of
> a much nearer future to 1863.
As my writeup indicates: the tablet does fortell events close to 1863 as well
as events much further in the future.
...
...
> Anyway, thought I would share my own understanding of this matter on
> here, if it is found worthy of being so shared.:-)
>
> Regards, John
Regards,
MSP MENGE
Yes, I do. There are three main characters in this Tablet, the Holy Mariner,
the maid of heaven, and 'one of her handmaidens'. It is clear from the text
that the 'handmaiden' is subservient to and possesses a lesser station than,
the 'maid of heaven'.
My understanding is that the 'handmaider' is Shoghi Effendi who suffered
increasingly as time grew on from his families rejection of 'Abdu'l-Baha's
wishes, the increasing demands of Cause, and the like. It is believed that he
died of a heart attack, which may well have been associated with his mental
anguish.
Thus the new group of 'maids of heaven' at the end would be the Hands of the
Cause.
However, there is one flaw with my interpretation. What were the 'mysterious
grievous afflictions'?
Best Regards,
Matt Menge
MSP MENGE
>There won't be a new Manifestation of God (Independent prophet)
>in the next thousand years. That does not mean there won't be
>any Dependent prophets. Also, who is it that gets martyred at the
>end of the Tablet?
Dear Aziz,
Clearly we have some disagreements about this Tablet. I think that it refers
to Shoghi Effendi. Likewise I do not see martyrdom, I see someone dying of a
broken heart, or even just spiritually drained.
As to their appearing a Dependent Prophet, I think it is possible. However, by
the very fact of such a dependency, that Prophet would be obedient to the
Universal House of Justice. Similarly, He or She could not overrule the
decisions of the House of Justice.
Best Regards,
Matt Menge
Aziz Mboya
Hi all,
I am still trying to figure out if the following is a reference
to Baha'u'llah himself or a Dependent prophet. The following lines
sound like Baha'u'llah advising a Dependent Prophet. The full
passage is further below:
|Beware that Thou divest not Thyself, Thou Who art the Essence of Purity, of
|Thy robe of effulgent glory. Nay, enrich Thyself increasingly, in the
|kingdom of creation, with the incorruptible vestures of Thy God, that
|the beauteous image of the Almighty may be reflected through Thee in all
|created things and the grace of Thy Lord be infused in the plenitude of
|its power into the entire creation.
|
|If Thou smellest from any one the smell of the love of Thy Lord, offer up
|Thyself for him, for We have created Thee to this end, and have covenanted
|with Thee, from time immemorial, and in the presence of the congregation
|of Our well-favored ones, for this very purpose...
Regards,
Aziz
|Say: Step out of Thy holy chamber, O Maid of Heaven, inmate of the
|Exalted Paradise! Drape thyself in whatever manner pleaseth Thee in
|the silken Vesture of Immortality, and put on, in the name of the
|All-Glorious, the broidered Robe of Light. Hear, then, the sweet, the
|wondrous accent of the Voice that cometh from the Throne of Thy Lord,
|the Inaccessible, the Most High. Unveil Thy face, and manifest the beauty
|of the black-eyed Damsel, and suffer not the servants of God to be
|deprived of the light of Thy shining countenance. Grieve not if Thou
|hearest the sighs of the dwellers of the earth, or the voice of the
|lamentation of the denizens of heaven. Leave them to perish on the
|dust of extinction. Let them be reduced to nothingness, inasmuch as the
|flame of hatred hath been kindled within their breasts. Intone, then,
|before the face of the peoples of earth and heaven, and in a most
|melodious voice, the anthem of praise, for a remembrance of Him Who is
|the King of the names and attributes of God. Thus have We decreed Thy
|destiny. Well able are We to achieve Our purpose.
|
|Beware that Thou divest not Thyself, Thou Who art the Essence of Purity,
|of Thy robe of effulgent glory. Nay, enrich Thyself increasingly, in the
|kingdom of creation, with the incorruptible vestures of Thy God, that
|the beauteous image of the Almighty may be reflected through Thee in all
|created things and the grace of Thy Lord be infused in the plenitude of
|its power into the entire creation.
|
|If Thou smellest from any one the smell of the love of Thy Lord, offer
|up Thyself for him, for We have created Thee to this end, and have
|covenanted with Thee, from time immemorial, and in the presence of
|the congregation of Our well-favored ones, for this very purpose. Be
|not impatient if the blind in heart hurl down the shafts of their idle
|fancies upon Thee. Leave them to themselves, for they follow the
|promptings of the evil ones.
|
|Cry out before the gaze of the dwellers of heaven and of earth: I am
|the Maid of Heaven, the Offspring begotten by the Spirit of Bahá. My
|habitation is the Mansion of His Name, the All-Glorious. Before the
|Concourse on high I was adorned with the ornament of His names. I was
|wrapt within the veil of an inviolable security, and lay hidden from
|the eyes of men. Methinks that I heard a Voice of divine and
|incomparable sweetness, proceeding from the right hand of the God of
|Mercy, and lo, the whole Paradise stirred and trembled before Me, in
|its longing to hear its accents, and gaze on the beauty of Him that
|uttered them. Thus have We revealed in this luminous Tablet, and in
|the sweetest of languages, the verses which the Tongue of Eternity was
|moved to utter in the Qayyúmu'l-Asmá.
|
|Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth
|whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the
|things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the
|All-Powerful, the All-Wise.
|
|They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty
|are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These
|shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode
|of the deniers!
|
|-- Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.
Genj...@webtv.net
Faith, and never could his interpretations contradict the meaning of the
Words of Baha'u'llah, in fact his interpretations define the meaning of
the Words of Baha'u'llah, as 'Abdu'l-Baha says in His Will and
Testament, 'he(Shoghi Effendi) is the interpreter of the Word of God...'
I do not wish to become embroiled in controversy on this isse, but the
Writings o Baha'u'llah, 'Abd'l-Baha, and the Guardian are very clear ,
and nowhere more so than in the issue of interpretation, who was
permitted to make them in any authoritative manner and who was not.
The list since 1844 goes as follows:
The Bab
Baha'u'llah
'Abdu'l-Baha
Shoghi Effendi
no one else for at least a thusand years from the Revelation of
Baha'u'llah
The Next Manifestation of God Who shall be made manifest after 'a
thousand or thousands of years.'
Meantime 'Abdu'l-Baha says 'no one is allowed to breathe a word, even to
claim the station of Guardiansip' (let alone , one presumes,the station,
of a Prophet, dependent on Baha'u'llah or not.)
Now 'Abdu'l-Baha said this in Writing, it is inthe compilation of
Compilations, Vol 1, no.727, and its translation is authorized by the
Uniersal House of Justice.
I do not believe we can take a mystical Tablet of Baha'u'llah and
interpret it in a manner contrary to the clearly revealed Writings.
In fact Baha'u'llah Himself says we may not do this, in many Tablets,
the Kitab-i-Aqdas foremost among them.The Guardian states, that
Baha'u'llah says we should take the inner meaning and superimpose it on
the outer meaning.
What this entails is to recognize that we are not ourselves Prophets,
Interpreters or Perfect Exemplars as "Abdu'l-Baha was, not Guardians and
not anything special, but ordinary Baha'is, as Shoghi Effendi says in
another connection, 'neither more nor less than ordinary Baha'is.'
Knowing as we do that there can in all probability be no more
Guardians,and thus also no more Hands of the Cause,we shuld also
understand that all the cetral Figures of the baha'iDispensation, have
already been here, The Bab, Baha'u'llah anbd 'Abdu'l-Baha, the latter
certainly and by His Own Words, not a Prophet.'The visible expression of
servitude to the Threshold of Baha; certainly does ot imply any kind of
Prophethood,it implies servitude.
'Abdu'l-Baha states in Some Answered Questions 'and other places that
the conditions of reality are limted tothree;Deity, Prophethood, and
servitude.'Abdu'l-Baha has clearly and repeatedly stated that His
Station is that of Servitude, not Prophethood.
Shoghi Effendi in Dispensation of Baha'u'llah gives us all we can ever
know of the reality of that station of 'Abdu'l-Baha's, certainly no mere
servant.
But to say, as has been said on here, that only a Prophet can have
innate knowledge, is to imit with human understanding the Power of God
Who created 'Abdu'l-Baha and gave Him the title of the Mystery of God,
as Shoghi Effendi explains that in 'Abdu'l-Baha human reality and
superhuman knowledge and perfection were combined.This clearly indicates
that the Station of 'Abdu'l-Baha,which ShoghiEffendi also says in this
document(Dispensation) will not be approached by anyone , no matter how
great their attainment, for no less than one thousand years,and while
the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha is fundamentally human, it is much higher
than that of the Guardian.
But this means that 'Abdu'l-Baha was not a Prophet, in fact many
Prophets have appeared in human history, but 'Abdu'l-Baha is unique in
that He incarnates a never before seen Institution, and is a Perfect
human being but Not a Prophet.
If we attempt to redefine the terms of reference of the Faith and the
Covenant, trouble is the only possibe outcome.
Besides, we have the Revelation of the Bab, the Revelation of
Baha'u'llah, the Interpretation, deeds and example of 'Abdu'l-Baha, the
words, deeds and life of Shoghi Effendi, the Sign of God on earth, no
mere individual bt the Final Interpreter of the Word of God for one
thousand years or thereabouts,and the infallible guidance and
elucidations of the Writings, of the Universal House of Justice until
the Next Manifestation of God appears.
And we have had the fine examples of thousand upon thousands of Babi and
Baha'i followers,faithful Members of the Holy Family, Letters, martyrs,
saints,Disciples, Apostles, Heralds of the Covenant, Hands of the Cause,
pioneers, travel teachers, and just Baha'is , servants and handaidens,
throughout the world and continuing, and really, we have so much,why try
to make it that we need anything else but for the rank and file of the
believers, tha's us, friends, to read the Writings, pray for guidance
and assistance, take the latest Plan Messages from the Universal House
of Justice, arise, and carry that which is written into action?
Do we need 'dependent Prophets 'dropping from the clouds one thousand
years before the earliest time thay can come according to the explicit
Text of Baha'u'llah's Own Words?
If anyone claiming to be such a Prophet shows up in front of me, I do't
care if he or she beams into my living room, I'm looking at y watch,
noting that it is Not 2852 a.d. or 1,009 B.E., and, as Baha'u'llah
instructs,I will 'unhesitatibly reject him,'because 'such a man is
assuredly a lying impostor.'
That's 'even if he were to manifest all the signs of God,' because
Baha'u'llah clearly says this.
Baha'u'llah being the Supreme Manifestation of God, and 'Abdu'l-Baha
being the Center of His Covenant, I for one, tend:-) to believe what
They say, to be true, and likewise Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal
House of Justice.
Regards,
Genjumin
Aziz Mboya
Genj...@webtv.net wrote:
> Shoghi Effendi by definition was infallible in the interpretation of the
> Faith, and never could his interpretations contradict the meaning of the
> Words of Baha'u'llah, in fact his interpretations define the meaning of
> the Words of Baha'u'llah, as 'Abdu'l-Baha says in His Will and
> Testament, 'he(Shoghi Effendi) is the interpreter of the Word of God...'
Where does it say the Guardian's writings "define" what Baha'u'llah says?
That, to me, sounds like potentially ascribing more importance to the
interpretations of the Guardian *over the very Word of God* which are
the basis and foundation of the interpretation. From the quotation below,
it is clear that *only Baha'u'llah* is infallible in the sense of being completely
free from error.
|O thou who hast set thy face towards the Realm on High and hast quaffed
|My sealed wine from the hand of bounteousness! Know thou that the term
|`Infallibility' hath numerous meanings and divers stations. In one sense
|it is applicable to the One Whom God hath made immune from error.
|Similarly it is applied to every soul whom God hath guarded against
|sin, transgression, rebellion, impiety, disbelief and the like. However,
|the Most Great Infallibility is confined to the One Whose station is
|immeasurably exalted beyond ordinances or prohibitions and is sanctified
|from errors and omissions. Indeed He is a Light which is not followed
|by darkness and a Truth not overtaken by error. Were He to pronounce
|water to be wine or heaven to be earth or light to be fire, He speaketh
|the truth and no doubt would there be about it; and unto no one is given
|the right to question His authority or to say why or wherefore.
|
|-- Bahá'u'lláh, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p.
Those "guarded against, sin, transgression, .." I believe would be
Dependent prophets. All others (including the Guardian who was not
a Dependent prophet), can err, sin, disbelieve, etc. Again, these are
the words of Baha'u'llah (The Most Great Infallibility). Those who
believe "infallibility of the Guardian" means he was free from error, etc
clearly are not going by the words of Baha'u'llah (the Word of God).
> Meantime 'Abdu'l-Baha says 'no one is allowed to breathe a word, even to
> claim the station of Guardiansip' (let alone , one presumes,the station,
> of a Prophet, dependent on Baha'u'llah or not.)
I do not see how anyone could claim the role of the Guardianship when it is
clear from the writings that this was to be passed down the first-born or
other male descendants of the Guardian, of which there were none. There is
nothing in the statement above that suggests or in any way implies that
there cannot be Depent prophets. Further, what Baha'u'llah (The Most
Greate Infallibility) says takes precedence over what Abdu'l-Baha (or
anybody else) says so that would be the final word. Also because the
Guardian was not a prophet of any kind we must be open to the possibility
of errors and the like in his writings, translations, etc as mentioned in the
passage above by Baha'u'llah. Because of his lowest spiritual station among
the central figures, he is potentially the most fallible (in terms of error, etc).
> I do not believe we can take a mystical Tablet of Baha'u'llah and
> interpret it in a manner contrary to the clearly revealed Writings.
Here is what Baha'u'llah says about interpreting the writings.
|The understanding of His words and the comprehension of the utterances
|of the Birds of Heaven are in no wise dependent upon human learning.
|They depend solely upon purity of heart, chastity of soul, and freedom
|of spirit. This is evidenced by those who, today, though without a single
|letter of the accepted standards of learning, are occupying the loftiest
|seats of knowledge; and the garden of their hearts is adorned, through
|the showers of divine grace, with the roses of wisdom and the tulips of
|understanding. Well is it with the sincere in heart for their share of the
|light of a mighty Day!
|
|-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan,
All these writings (mystical and otherwise) exist because we have the ability
to interpret them (if we have qualities mentioned above) because they being
important messages *intended for us* . This is also why Abdu'l-Baha said
we should study the Tablet of the Holy Mariner. The Guardian's interpretations
were relied upon during that formative stage of the faith while believers and
administrative bodies matured around the world.
> In fact Baha'u'llah Himself says we may not do this, in many Tablets,
> the Kitab-i-Aqdas foremost among them.The Guardian states, that
> Baha'u'llah says we should take the inner meaning and superimpose it on
> the outer meaning.
Can you produce a reference for this? I have never heard of or seen such
a thing. And, before you "superimpose" the inner meaning on the "outer
meaning" where do you get the "out meaning"? On what basis do you
come up with the "outer meaning"? If the "outer meaning" were based on
the "inner meaning" why should there be a need to "superimpose" it back
over "inner meaning"? That does not really make sense..
> What this entails is to recognize that we are not ourselves Prophets,
> Interpreters or Perfect Exemplars as "Abdu'l-Baha was, not Guardians and
> not anything special, but ordinary Baha'is, as Shoghi Effendi says in
> another connection, 'neither more nor less than ordinary Baha'is.'
Remember, the revelation of Baha'u'llah and Baha'is existed long before the
Guardianship. How then, did those believers grasp the writings? They grasped
the writings through their own eyes -- through the spiritual capacity that exists
in all of us.
> Knowing as we do that there can in all probability be no more
> Guardians,and thus also no more Hands of the Cause,we shuld also
> understand that all the cetral Figures of the baha'iDispensation, have
> already been here, The Bab, Baha'u'llah anbd 'Abdu'l-Baha, the latter
> certainly and by His Own Words, not a Prophet.'The visible expression of
> servitude to the Threshold of Baha; certainly does ot imply any kind of
> Prophethood,it implies servitude.
As I have said many times before, servitude does not preclude one
from being a Dependent prophet.
> 'Abdu'l-Baha states in Some Answered Questions 'and other places that
> the conditions of reality are limted tothree;Deity, Prophethood, and
> servitude.'Abdu'l-Baha has clearly and repeatedly stated that His
> Station is that of Servitude, not Prophethood.
By this I believe he means he was not an Independent Prophet.
> Shoghi Effendi in Dispensation of Baha'u'llah gives us all we can ever
> know of the reality of that station of 'Abdu'l-Baha's, certainly no mere
> servant.
How do you know this? As I have said above, the Guardian was
not free from error, so how do you know that what he has said is the
most anyone can know of the station of Abdu'l-Baha? In fact, it appears
the Guardian himself may not have fully comprehended the station of
Abdu'l-Baha. Like I have said before, Baha'is existed and apprehended
the revelation long before the Guardianship.
> But to say, as has been said on here, that only a Prophet can have
> innate knowledge, is to imit with human understanding the Power of God
> Who created 'Abdu'l-Baha and gave Him the title of the Mystery of God,
> as Shoghi Effendi explains that in 'Abdu'l-Baha human reality and
> superhuman knowledge and perfection were combined.This clearly indicates
> that the Station of 'Abdu'l-Baha,which ShoghiEffendi also says in this
> document(Dispensation) will not be approached by anyone , no matter how
> great their attainment, for no less than one thousand years,and while
> the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha is fundamentally human, it is much higher
> than that of the Guardian.
If you reflect upon all these statements of the Guardian, I think it will be clear
to you that he makes them out of his own limitations as a believer and not as
an individual incapable of error.
> But this means that 'Abdu'l-Baha was not a Prophet, in fact many
> Prophets have appeared in human history, but 'Abdu'l-Baha is unique in
> that He incarnates a never before seen Institution, and is a Perfect
> human being but Not a Prophet.
Please produce references for these statements, preferably based on Baha'u'llah
writings.
> If we attempt to redefine the terms of reference of the Faith and the
> Covenant, trouble is the only possibe outcome.
Everything I have said is based on the writings
> Do we need 'dependent Prophets 'dropping from the clouds one thousand
> years before the earliest time thay can come according to the explicit
> Text of Baha'u'llah's Own Words?
Prophets arise by the will of God. Do not mix up the words of Baha'u'llah
with those of anyone else. Where does *Baha'u'llah* state that there cannot
be Dependent prophets in 1000 years?
> If anyone claiming to be such a Prophet shows up in front of me, I do't
> care if he or she beams into my living room, I'm looking at y watch,
> noting that it is Not 2852 a.d. or 1,009 B.E., and, as Baha'u'llah
> instructs,I will 'unhesitatibly reject him,'because 'such a man is
> assuredly a lying impostor.'
The person would be a liar if they claimed to be an *Independent* prophet.
> That's 'even if he were to manifest all the signs of God,' because
> Baha'u'llah clearly says this.
>
> Baha'u'llah being the Supreme Manifestation of God, and 'Abdu'l-Baha
> being the Center of His Covenant, I for one, tend:-) to believe what
> They say, to be true, and likewise Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal
> House of Justice.
>
> Regards,
> Genjumin
If they are *known* to be free from error, then what they say will be
accepted as the truth. As the first passage from Baha'u'llah clearly
states: It is *only Baha'u'llah* who is completely sanctified from
errors and omissions.
Regards,
Aziz
Genj...@webtv.net
says?'
Well, that's waht Interpreter means.The Universal House of Justice,
infallibe in elucidating the Faith, says that one of the differences
between elucidation, that they do and the interpretations of the
Guardian , is that their elucidations are made to clarify the teachings
and theirapplication at a certain point in time, and may leter change as
conditions change, but the Guardian's interpretations are a statement of
the truth inherent in the sacred Writing, and cannot be changed.
See statement in Messages from the Universal House of Justice on
difference between elucidation and interpretation, also available on
Baha'i Academics resource Library on the Internet.
The oint is that it seems that the Station of 'Abdu'l-Baha is being
overstated, that He was a Prophet, which He clearly sad He was not, and
the Guardian's station is being understated, and his interpretations are
being accused of fallibillity, despite the fact that 'Abdu'l-Baha states
in His Will and Testament,that whatever either the Guardian ot the
Universal House of Justice decides or states is of God,and whoever
opposes him or them has opposed God.
Not just Baha'u'llah, but God.
'Only Baha'u'llah is infallible in the sense of being free from all
error.'
'Abdu'l-Baha is said by Baha'u'llah to be infallible.
Abdu'l-Baha states that the 'Universal House of Justice which is the
source of all good and freed from all error', is so infallible, then
says they have to be obedient to the Guardian.
Conferred infallibillity is still infallibillity in its clearly defined
spheres.
There is a tendency,among certain intellectually inclined and/or
academically trained believers, to attempt to redefine and reduce, bt by
bit, the scope of the actual powers granted by God to Baha'u'llah and
the Bab,stating their knowledge to be restrained to Religion,of
'Abdu'l-Baha, claiming that Hs knowledge was restrictd to the Faith,
when in fact it was not, and of the Guardian , claiming that he was not
infallible in iterpreting the Writings of the Faith and in the
protection of the faith, which he certainly was.
The purpose of this organized yet subtle attempt which is even now
attempting to poison the minds of seekers and inexperienced Baha'is
alike, is to obtain for these feeble mortal souls, a following, of
foolish people who lack enough faith in or undrstanding of the Covenant
to undrstand that the Administrative Order is on the earth end , and God
is on the other End, of It.
As for this servant, he will go by the writings of the Guardian any day
rather that the unfounded speculations and distortions, intentional or
otherwise, of people as fallible as is he.
The implication that the Words of Baha'u'llah have been improperly
interpreted by 'Abdu'l-Baha and by Shoghi Effendi, and the contempt with
which the Guadianship is treated, show that the individuals believe they
know more about the Writings than did 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.
How likely is that?As for Baha'u'llah's Own Words, instead of saying 'I
believe He measn Dependent Prophets', which is where Aziz argument
breaks down because it relies on his fallible mortal understanding,
unless we are meant to believe he is something more than that:-)?
As for Baha'u'llah's Own Words, try these:'Refer ye whatsoeer ye
understand not in the Book to Him Who hath branched from this Mighty
Stock.'
"Abdu'l-Baha.Who then says:'He(Shoghi Effendi) is the interpreter of the
Word of God..'
'Whosoever opposeth him hath opposed God.'
Little re-education in the Covenant seems to be in order, here.
Regards,
John
MSP MENGE
>Meantime 'Abdu'l-Baha says 'no one is allowed to breathe a word, even to
>claim the station of Guardianship' (let alone , one presumes,the station,
>of a Prophet, dependent on Baha'u'llah or not.)
>
>
I'm not really going to push this issue too far, since I don't think it is
highly important. However, since no one knew what the Guardianship was at
the time of this Tablet, it is possible that it had a broader meaning.
Namely, the 'Guardian' could also be a term for a Manifestation of God. This
fits in very well with the context of the quote, which, as you stated can be
found in Compilation of Compilations # 727.
What is very clear to me, however, is that were a Dependent Prophet to appear,
He would be utterly subservient to the Universal House of Justice, just as the
Dependent Prophets of the House of Israel were subservient to the Torah.
Secondly, it is difficult to say whether 'Abdu'l-Baha was a Prophet. He is
certainly not a Prophet (nabi) in the Islamic sense, which is more accurate.
However, in Biblical terminology both a Prophet (nabi) and a Messenger (rasul)
are commonly referred to as a 'Prophet'. Further, there is no distinction
between Major Prophets (such as Noah and I believe Moses) and Minor Prophets
(such Isaiah and Amos).
So while 'Abdu'l-Baha was definitely not a Prophet by Islamic terminology
(since the Prophetic Cycle is ended), whether He was such by Christian
terminology is somewhat less clear.
Best Regards,
Matt Menge
Fred Capp
to attempt a response to your reply point by point.
>>> Aziz Mboya <amb...@mediaone.net> 04/01/00 03:47AM >>>
Fred Capp wrote:
>> Aziz, is it not possible that WE could be those holy souls that
<snip>
>> but I believe that Baha'u'llah said "Ye are the angels...if your feet be
>> firm..."
>
>An individual can definitely rise to great heights of knowledge and >spirituality (the valley of true poverty and absolute nothingness), which is >the ultimate purpose of divine revelation -- what God has desired for us. >However, there are certain statements in the tablet that I believe cannot >be attributed to regular believers. e.g.:
>
>...that their sacred countenances may be unveiled to mortal eyes,
>
>I interpret "mortal eyes" as us -- i.e. those who are fallible and whose
>spiritual station and perfection is not guaranteed - the "luminaries" would
>be the Dependent prophets.
Right, fallible, thus able to make mistakes, as in interpretations of scripture & who
constitutes a prophet & who doesn't. I suspect that any dependant prophets for the
next thousand years or so will not announce their station. Any that did would then
need to be put to the test by the appropriate institutions.
>Where it says they will "interpret every hidden meaning" may be a >reference to Sealed Prophecies. These are prophecies that can only be >explained by prophets (Independent or Dependent) based on their innate >knowledge and is proof of their prophethood (among other signs). A regular >believer however spiritual and knowledgeable would be unable to do this -- >I'll try and get a reference for this.
You find those references. So do I read that you're abdicating your responsibility
to try to understand the Holy Texts? If only a prophet can make sense of the Word
& "interpret every hidden meaning" then why should we even assume to try? I, for
one, am not willing to surrender my wit, my intelligence or my mistakes until somebody
comes along with the Holy seal of approval from the House of Justice & tells me wha
t to believe. We might as well still have clergy.
>Where it says, "They shall raise their voices in every assembly" may be
>referring to how their writings and teachings will be used in Baha'i
>gatherings like (and in addition to) those of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.
>I don't think we can reasonably expect a literal interpretation of the
>phrase to be practically possible..
It can also mean that the Baha'is will be everyplace, in all walks of life, & involved
in any & all gatherings. I'm holding off on this one. The options for interpretation are just
too vast.
>However, the Tablet of the Holy Mariner below, I think is much clearer
>about the Dependent Prophets (handmaidens), and is the word of
>Baha'u'llah (The Most Great Infallibility).
>
>|Thereupon she summoned unto herself one maiden from her >handmaidens,
>
>The handmaidens are interpreted to be Dependent Prophets who will be >sent by Baha'u'llah in the course of the Baha'i era. Literally, a handmaiden >is a servant to the Maiden. It is interesting to note that Abdu'l-Baha who
>was the first Dependent Prophet for this revelation referred to himself as >such.
Interpreted by whom? I've seen many interpretations of this Tablet. Many even
claim to be "authoritative". Are you one of these Prophets that you're carrying on about?
>|>As to my station, it is that of the servant of Baha; `Abdu'l-Baha, the
>|>visible expression of servitude to the Threshold of the Abha Beauty.
>|>
>|>-- `Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
>
|>And commanded her: "Descend into space from the mansions of eternity,
>
>Baha'u'llah sends the Second Dependent Prophet to earth (the first to >appear out of the unknown).
This "Handmaiden" could just as easily be Shoghi Effendi, or any (or all) of the
Hands of the Cause of God. I suspect that what is more important in this Tablet is
that the Handmaiden never succeeded in finding "from these idle claimants the
breeze of Faithfulness" which ultimately leads to her passing. (which generally supports
the Shoghi Effendi hypotheses)
>There also exists a "Tablet of the Maiden" which has not been translated >to English (as far as I know). I would not be surprised if it contained >references to Dependent prophets.
But it hasn't been translated, & you don't claim to know the contents so it may also just
as likely not support for your theory.
Aziz Mboya
MSP MENGE wrote:
> Genj...@webtv.net writes...
>
> >Meantime 'Abdu'l-Baha says 'no one is allowed to breathe a word, even to
> >claim the station of Guardianship' (let alone , one presumes,the station,
> >of a Prophet, dependent on Baha'u'llah or not.)
> >
> Secondly, it is difficult to say whether 'Abdu'l-Baha was a Prophet. He is
> certainly not a Prophet (nabi) in the Islamic sense, which is more accurate.
>
> However, in Biblical terminology both a Prophet (nabi) and a Messenger (rasul)
> are commonly referred to as a 'Prophet'. Further, there is no distinction
> between Major Prophets (such as Noah and I believe Moses) and Minor Prophets
> (such Isaiah and Amos).
>
> So while 'Abdu'l-Baha was definitely not a Prophet by Islamic terminology
> (since the Prophetic Cycle is ended), whether He was such by Christian
> terminology is somewhat less clear.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Matt Menge
Matt,
Below Abdu'l-Baha explains the two classes of prophets.
Regards,
Aziz
|THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS
|
|Question.--How many kinds of Prophets are there? Answer.--Universally,
|the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are
|followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.
|
|The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle.
|Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations
|of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an
|intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and
|Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun
|which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does
|not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of
|Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.
|
|The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and
|not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and
|they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They
|are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but
|receives its light from the sun.
|
|The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently
|are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and
|Bahá'u'lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like
|Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent
|Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new
|creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs
|and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the
|season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and
|gives them a new life.
|
|With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also
|promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His
|word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive
|from the independent Prophets.
|
|-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p.
Genj...@webtv.net
Regards,
John
Aziz Mboya
Fred Capp wrote:
> >There also exists a "Tablet of the Maiden" which has not been translated >to English (as far as I know). I would not be surprised if it contained >references to Dependent prophets.
>
> But it hasn't been translated, & you don't claim to know the contents so it may also just
> as likely not support for your theory.
I'll ignore all your negative remarks... You can actually get an "unofficial" translation of
the Tablet on the Web. See what it says. Because the theme is the "Maiden" it would
be no surprise (I think) if it referred to Dependent prophets - "handmaidens" (to the Maiden).
Aziz
Genj...@webtv.net
of this Tablet,'
But they did. The Tablet was to Persian believers of the Shi'ah Islam
persuasion who knew very well what Guardianship was.
You see, Islam had twelve Guardians after Muhammad,amd they had the
exact same title as Shoghi Effendi, 'Valiy-i-Amr'u'llah(Guardian of the
Cause of God.)
Vilayat or Guardiansip existed on earth from the time of Imam 'Ali, the
first Imam, to the time of the Twefth Imam.
They were the infallible interpreters of the Qur'an.
They gave commentary, interpretation, and even wrote books full of
prayer which read, very much like Baha'i ones.
'Abdu'l-Baha in this Tablet states that no one had the right to breathe
a word, to make any claim, for at least one thousand years, 'no even to
claim the station of Guardianship.'
'Abdu;'l-Baha's station is unparalleled, and unique, never before
seen;were He a Dependent or Minor Prophet, that would not have been said
by the Guardian in Dispensation of Baha'u'llah in the section on
'Abdu'l-Baha.
But the Guardian's station is another matter, the world has had
Guardians before , in Islam.
In another Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha which I also quoted, it states that
for a thousand years all should regard themselves as subjects, obedient
to the laws of God and the laws ofhte Universal House of Justice.
Thus I agree that anyone in the next thousand years must obey the
UniversalHouse of Justice.
As for when Dependent Prophets Who are in fact defined by 'Abdu'l-Baha
as Manifestations of God, who in relation to the Source of Their
inspiration, are under the shadow of Baha'u'llah, see Dispensation of
Baha'u'llah, Baha'u'llah section, next manifestation portion for
Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha's Own Words here,shall come, this is not to
occur for at least one thousand Or Thousand of years.
This could be a long, long time from now, but whenever it is, it won't
be before a thousand years from Baha'u'llah's revelation.
The inspired wisdom, promised by 'Abdu''l-Baha to all properly
functioning Assemblies, of our National Spiritual Assembly in asking all
the believers to first study the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah by Shoghi
Effendi to better understand the Purpose of Baha'u'llah in ordaining His
World Order,the foundaton stone according to Shoghi Effendi was the
Guardianship, and the Crowning Unit the Universal House of Justice, is
now becoming very clear, this will protect us with the Master's Will
from misunderstandings which otherwise may result in fruitless
discussions of the meanings of some of Baha'u'llah's veiled utterances
when we would with more profit arise to carry out His clearly defined
instructions to build His World Order, first in our own hearts, then in
the hearts of the rest of Humanity, finally in the outer world for all
to see, as Shoghi effendi so masterfuly delineates in 'Unfoldmant of
World Civilization , the magnificent culmination of his World Order
Letters.
Available on-line of from Baha'i Publishing trusts and Distribution
services everywhere, these Letters, published as the World Order of
Baha'u'llah, ae absolutely indispensable in gaining an adequate
understanding , and a correct one, of the Stations of the Bab and
Baha'u'llah, 'of 'Abdu'l-Baha, and of the various Institutions and
elements of His World Order,including of the guardainshipand the
Universal House of Justice.
Heartily reccomending a through and prayerful study of this most
essential baha'i Document (containing statements of the Bab, Baha'u'llah
and 'Abdu'l-Baha to be found nowhere else in English in additon to the
Guardian's magnificent exposition of the fundamental spritual verities
of the faith of Baha'u'llah,I remain humbly,
yrs in His service,
John
Suzanne Gerstner
I haven't been writing here much lately because I have had major back
problems, and haven't been able to sit very long. :-(
As far as this thread goes, here are my thoughts. Yes, holy souls will
arise and breathe a breath of life into every gathering. 'Abdu'l-Baha and
Baha'u'llah have promised that this will be so. Whether you want to name
them dependent prophets or individuals who have reached an exalted spiritual
station, I'm not sure that it really matters. The spiritual reality is the
same. I believe that 'Abdu'l-Baha has also named these exalted spiritual
beings as "angels" and "saints." But I do agree with Fred. With
perserverence, determination and and with the assistance of Baha'u'llah and
the "creative word", we are all able to reach this station. Shoghi Effendi
says that the rank of a true believer is the same as a dependent prophet:
"In confirmation of the exalted rank of the true believer, referred to by
Baha'u'llah, He reveals the following: "The station which he who hath truly
recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one ordained for
such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as Manifestations
`endowed with constancy.'"
(Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 111)
While we can't count on the infallible guidance of anybody but the ones whom
we are told have had infallibility conferred upon them (i.e. 'Abdu'l-Baha,
Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice when they are making a
decision), this doesn't actually rule out the possibility that God is
infallibly guiding other souls. We just can't count on it. This quote is
what I am thinking of:
"... essential infallibility belongs especially to the supreme
Manifestations, and acquired infallibility is granted to every holy soul."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 172)
Aziz writes:
> >An individual can definitely rise to great heights of knowledge and
>spirituality (the valley of true poverty and absolute nothingness), which
is >the ultimate purpose of divine revelation -- what God has desired for
us. >However, there are certain statements in the tablet that I believe
cannot >be attributed to regular believers. e.g.:
> >
> >...that their sacred countenances may be unveiled to mortal eyes,
This quote comed to my mind when I read the above:
"Ere long will God sail His Ark upon thee, and will manifest the people of
Baha who have been mentioned in the Book of Names."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 16)
"The people of Baha" will be manifested. If we are true to our spiritual
destiny, our "sacred countenances will be unveiled to mortal eyes."
'Abdu'l-Baha beseeches God to help us with this:
"I implore Thee with a throbbing heart, with streaming tears and a yearning
soul, and in complete detachment from all things, to make Thy lovers as rays
of light across Thy realms, and to aid Thy chosen servants to exalt Thy
Word, that their faces may turn beauteous and bright with splendour, that
their hearts may be filled with mysteries, and that every soul may lay down
its burden of sin."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Selections ... `Abdu'l-Baha, Page: 224)
> >Where it says they will "interpret every hidden meaning" may be a
>reference to Sealed Prophecies. These are prophecies that can only be
>explained by prophets (Independent or Dependent) based on their innate
>knowledge and is proof of their prophethood (among other signs). A regular
>believer however spiritual and knowledgeable would be unable to do this --
>I'll try and get a reference for this.
When I read "interpret every hidden meaning" a couple of quotes come to my
mind. One is this one:
"Each bosom must be a telegraph station - one terminus of the wire attached
to the soul, the other fixed in the Supreme Concourse - so that inspiration
may descend from the Kingdom of Abha and questions of reality be discussed.
Then opinions will coincide with truth; day by day there will be
progression, and the meetings will become more radiant and spiritual. This
attainment is conditioned upon unity and agreement. The more perfect the
love and agreement, the more the divine confirmations and assistance of the
Blessed Perfection will descend."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 183)
The other quote which comes to my mind is one about the meditative faculty.
If you use it correctly, you will be able to interpret hidden meanings.
'Abdu'l-Baha says:
"The meditative faculty is akin to the mirror; if you put it before earthly
objects it will reflect them. Therefore if the spirit of man is
contemplating earthly subjects he will be informed of these.
But if you turn the mirror of your spirits heavenwards, the heavenly
constellations and the rays of the Sun of Reality will be reflected in your
hearts, and the virtues of the Kingdom will be obtained.
Therefore let us keep this faculty rightly directed - turning it to the
heavenly Sun and not to earthly objects - so that we may discover the
secrets of the Kingdom, and comprehend the allegories of the Bible and the
mysteries of the spirit.
May we indeed become mirrors reflecting the heavenly realities, and may
we become so pure as to reflect the stars of heaven. "
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Paris Talks*, Page: 176)
As far as 'Abdu'l-Baha being a "dependent prophet"; we are told that his
station is unique in religious history.
Warmest regards,
Suzanne
Aziz Mboya
Genj...@webtv.net wrote:
> 'Only Baha'u'llah is infallible in the sense of being free from all
> error.'
>
> 'Abdu'l-Baha is said by Baha'u'llah to be infallible.
"Infallibility" has *many meanings* as Baha'u'llah clear states then
further explains.
> Abdu'l-Baha states that the 'Universal House of Justice which is the
> source of all good and freed from all error', is so infallible, then
> says they have to be obedient to the Guardian.
|But acquired infallibility is not a natural necessity; on the contrary, it
|is a ray of the bounty of infallibility which shines from the Sun of Reality
|upon hearts, and grants a share and portion of itself to souls. Although
|these souls have not essential infallibility, still they are under the protection
|of God--that is to say, God preserves them from error. Thus many of the
|holy beings who were not dawning-points of the Most Great Infallibility,
|were yet kept and preserved from error under the shadow of the protection
|and guardianship of God, for they were the mediators of grace between
|God and men. If God did not protect them from error, their error would
|cause believing souls to fall into error, and thus the foundation of the
|Religion of God would be overturned, which would not be fitting nor worthy
|of God.
|
|To epitomize: essential infallibility belongs especially to the supreme
|Manifestations, and acquired infallibility is granted to every holy soul.
|For instance, the Universal House of Justice, if it be established under
|the necessary conditions--with members elected from all the people--
|that House of Justice will be under the protection and the unerring guidance
|of God. If that House of Justice shall decide unanimously, or by a
|majority, upon any question not mentioned in the Book, that decision and
|command will be guarded from mistake. Now the members of the House
|of Justice have not, individually, essential infallibility; but the body of the
|House of Justice is under the protection and unerring guidance of
|God: this is called conferred infallibility.
|
|-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p.
I think this is the quotation you mention. However, there seems to be
a (minor?) error in it because it states "essential infallibility" belongs to
supreme Manifestations and "*acquired* infallibility" is granted to
every *holy soul*. It then explains the conditions under which UHJ
will be under the unerring guidance of God. However, it then states
the individual members of the UHJ have not "*essential* infallibility"
but the body of the UHJ does. However, "essential infallibility" as
explained in the first sentence only belongs to manifestations, so how
could UHJ members have it? -- I presume it was intented to say
"acquired" infallibility? It then says the UHJ has "*conferred*
infallibility". Basically, "conferred infallibility" as applied to the UHJ
seems analogous to "acquired infallibility" as applied to holy souls,
while "essential infallibility" only applies to the Manifestation of God.
Here is what Baha'u'llah says about infallibility.
|O thou who hast set thy face towards the Realm on High and hast quaffed
|My sealed wine from the hand of bounteousness! Know thou that the term
|`Infallibility' hath numerous meanings and divers stations. In one sense
|it is applicable to the One Whom God hath made immune from error.
|Similarly it is applied to every soul whom God hath guarded against
|sin, transgression, rebellion, impiety, disbelief and the like. However,
|the Most Great Infallibility is confined to the One Whose station is
|immeasurably exalted beyond ordinances or prohibitions and is sanctified
|from errors and omissions. Indeed He is a Light which is not followed
|by darkness and a Truth not overtaken by error. Were He to pronounce
|water to be wine or heaven to be earth or light to be fire, He speaketh
|the truth and no doubt would there be about it; and unto no one is given
|the right to question His authority or to say why or wherefore.
|
|-- Bahá'u'lláh, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p.
I think there exists a contradiction here because there is no mention in
the writings of Baha'u'llah (the Most Great Infallibility) about
infallibility being applicable to*groups* of otherwise fallible people like
the UHJ -- only to souls. Unless this exists elsewhere in the writings.
Here is what the Guardian says about the UHJ:
|Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of
|Bahá'u'lláh would be mutilated and permanently deprived of that
|hereditary principle which, as `Abdu'l-Bahá has written, has been
|invariably upheld by the Law of God. "In all the Divine Dispensations,"
|He states, in a Tablet addressed to a follower of the Faith in Persia,
|"the eldest son hath been given extraordinary distinctions. Even the
|station of prophethood hath been his birthright." Without such an institution
|the integrity of the Faith would be imperiled, and the stability of the entire
|fabric would be gravely endangered. Its prestige would suffer, the means
|required to enable it to take a long, an uninterrupted view over a series of
|generations would be completely lacking, and the necessary guidance to
|define the sphere of the legislative action of its elected representatives would
|be totally withdrawn.
|
|-- Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p.
To my understanding, the Guardian is basically saying: without the Guardianship
the Faith would be imperiled and guidance of the UHJ (the legislative body the
World Order) would be totally withdrawn. This clearly contradicts the
the notion of "conferred infallibility" from Abdu'l-Baha'is writings. How is this
possible if the Guardian were infallible (meaning free from error)? They also
contradict what Baha'u'llah says about infallibility because what Baha'u'llah
says is "sanctified from errors and *omissions*" and there is no mention in it
of infallibility (or any kind) being conferred on *groups* of people like the UHJ.
Or am I missing something?
Aziz Mboya
This post contains an excerpt from a provisional translation of Baha'u'llah's Tablet of the Maiden.
Provisional Translations are made by individuals for their personal use. Some individuals choose to make those translations available for others.
No guarantee of the accuracy of the translation, nor of its religious implications is guaranteed.
--The moderators. ]]
Fred Capp wrote:
>>There also exists a "Tablet of the Maiden" which has not been translated
>>to English (as far as I know). I would not be surprised if it contained
>>references to Dependent prophets.
>
> But it hasn't been translated, & you don't claim to know the contents so it may also just
> as likely not support for your theory.
Below Abdul-Baha explains the prophecies about the Muhammedan revelation
in the Bible. The 12 Imams are Dependent Prophets in the Muhammedan
revelation.
|The Law of God is also compared to an adorned bride who appears with
|most beautiful ornaments, as it has been said in chapter 21 of the
|Revelation of St. John: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem,
|coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for
|her husband." And in chapter 12, verse 1, it is said: "And there
|appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and
|the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."
|This woman is that bride, the Law of God that descended upon Muhammad.
|The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her
|feet, are the two nations which are under the shadow of that Law, the
|Persian and Ottoman kingdoms; for the emblem of Persia is the sun, and
|that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and moon
|are the emblems of two kingdoms which are under the power of the Law
|of God. Afterward it is said: "upon her head is a crown of twelve stars."
|These twelve stars are the twelve Imáms, who were the promoters of the
|Law of Muhammad and the educators of the people, shining like stars in
|the heaven of guidance.
|
|-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p.
Baha'u'llah uses similar symbolism in the Tablet of the Maiden (provisional
translation) below to declare his prophethood. The houris suspended above the
Maiden are I believe are Dependent prophets like the crown of 12 stars
mentioned above representing the 12 Imams (Dependent prophets in the
Muhammedan revelation).
| Then the firmament was illumined by the radiance
|of its light, contingent beings were made resplendent by its appearance
|and effulgence, and by its rays infinite numbers of suns dawned forth, as
|though they trekked through heavens that were without beginning or end.
|I became bewildered at the pen of God's handiwork, and at what it had
|inscribed upon Her temple. It was as though She had appeared with a body
|of light in the forms of the spirit, as though She moved upon the earth
|of essence in the substance of manifestation. I noticed that the houris
|had poked their heads out of their rooms and were suspended in the air
|above Her. They grew perplexed at Her appearance and Her beauty, and
|were entranced by the raptures of Her song. Praise be to Her creator,
|fashioner, and maker--to the one Who made Her manifest.
|
|-- Bahá'u'lláh, Tablet of the Maiden
Regards,
Aziz
-------------------------------------
Aziz Mboya
amb...@mediaone.net
Fred Capp
recommend a good chiropractor (who's also a Baha'i) if you
were local.
You said much of what I was trying to say, only better. I
always appreciate that. It is, to my mind, irrelevant whether or
not anybody is a dependant prophet or not. The important
consideration has been &, I suspect, always will be the depth
& sincerity of one's belief & how it manifests to the world.
Fred Capp
I only can speak for myself,
& sometimes I'm wrong about that.
(408) 808-8000 x2323
fred...@cupelectric.com
Need anything else?
>>> "Suzanne Gerstner" <gers...@casema.net> 04/07/00
11:07PM >>>
Dear Fred, Aziz and all,
I haven't been writing here much lately because I have had
major back
problems, and haven't been able to sit very long. :-(
As far as this thread goes, here are my thoughts. Yes, holy
souls will arise and breathe a breath of life into every
gathering. 'Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah have promised that
this will be so. Whether you want to name
them dependent prophets or individuals who have reached
an exalted spiritual station, I'm not sure that it really matters.
The spiritual reality is the
same. I believe that 'Abdu'l-Baha has also named these
exalted spiritual beings as "angels" and "saints." But I do
agree with Fred. With perseverance, determination and with
the assistance of Baha'u'llah and
the "creative word", we are all able to reach this station.
Shoghi Effendi
says that the rank of a true believer is the same as a
dependent prophet:
"In confirmation of the exalted rank of the true believer,
referred to by
Baha'u'llah, He reveals the following: "The station which he
who hath truly
recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one
ordained for
such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as
Manifestations
`endowed with constancy.'"
(Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 111)
While we can't count on the infallible guidance of anybody
but the ones whom we are told have had infallibility conferred
upon them (i.e. 'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the
Universal House of Justice when they are making a decision),
this doesn't actually rule out the possibility that God is
infallibly guiding other souls. We just can't count on it. This
quote is what I am thinking of:
"... essential infallibility belongs especially to the supreme
Manifestations, and acquired infallibility is granted to every
holy soul."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 172)
Aziz writes:
> >An individual can definitely rise to great heights of
knowledge and
>spirituality (the valley of true poverty and absolute
nothingness), which is >the ultimate purpose of divine
revelation -- what God has desired for us. >However, there
are certain statements in the tablet that I believe cannot >be
attributed to regular believers. e.g.:
> >
> >...that their sacred countenances may be unveiled to
mortal eyes,
This quote came to my mind when I read the above:
"Ere long will God sail His Ark upon thee, and will manifest
the people of
Baha who have been mentioned in the Book of Names."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 16)
"The people of Baha" will be manifested. If we are true to
our spiritual
destiny, our "sacred countenances will be unveiled to mortal
eyes." 'Abdu'l-Baha beseeches God to help us with this:
"I implore Thee with a throbbing heart, with streaming tears
and a yearning
soul, and in complete detachment from all things, to make
Thy lovers as rays
of light across Thy realms, and to aid Thy chosen servants to
exalt Thy
Word, that their faces may turn beauteous and bright with
splendor, that
their hearts may be filled with mysteries, and that every soul
may lay down
its burden of sin."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Selections ... `Abdu'l-Baha, Page: 224)
> >Where it says they will "interpret every hidden meaning"
may be a
>reference to Sealed Prophecies. These are prophecies that
can only be
>explained by prophets (Independent or Dependent) based
on their innate
>knowledge and is proof of their prophethood (among other
signs). A regular
>believer however spiritual and knowledgeable would be
unable to do this --
>I'll try and get a reference for this.
When I read "interpret every hidden meaning" a couple of
quotes come to my mind. One is this one:
"Each bosom must be a telegraph station - one terminus of
the wire ttached