Islam is Right (IMHO) - From Former Bahai
Farihin
Assalamualaikum,
I personally would like to thank Yassir for steadfastly posting
arguements on this newsgroup. I think what yassir is trying to
emphasize is right.
I was a Bahai formerly and now I have embraced Islam. Of course
initially i was pushed to embrace Islam due to marriage, but after some
time practising it i find that it is more fulfilling and has got more
system in it than the Bahai Faith.
Here are some of my observation on the various aspects:
1. Islam
a) Has an indepth study called Fiqh. In it every aspect of a Muslims
day to day living has recommendation and obligations. This makes Islam
more systematic based on the Noble Quran, The Hadiths and jurisprudence
of the school of thought, in my case Imam Shafiee.
b) Very very strong emphasis on Five times prayers are obligatory. If
missed there are ways to repay. Can be said by anyone under any
circumstances (there are provisions for) except for the insane. It is a
sacred pillar that is heavily emphasized. Through the daily Fardhu
Solat, a muslim can be judged by others, gives a clear evidence of his
spirituality to others. And the methods are uniformed according to
countries and schools of thought based on the examples of the prophet.
c) Congregational (Jemaah) Prayers, a way of unity. Like Nineteen Day
Feast (NDF), the Jemaah prayers really strengthens the family bond, the
family being the fundamental unit in society. Because there is an Imam,
and unlike popular beliefs by Bahais that the in congregational prayers
the followers do not pray, everyone in the congregational prayers prays
after the Imam has prayed. So why abrogate it? its effective in my
opinion.
d) Great emphasis is given to ablutions. When ablution is taken,
muslims understand that it is symbolic but even so, place great care
and importance to it application and regulations. A muslim must say his
prayer with his ablutions intact and not invalidated. Things that would
invalidate his ablutions and thus his prayer are like coming in contact
with a woman whom he can marry, touching things that are illegal
(haram), farting (gas)... things that do not invalidate the ablutions
and prayers are like food stains, eating, drinking water and beverages
which are halal.... and so on. So this really disciplines a fellow
muslim to respect his prayer and sets a good example for
2. Bahai
a) Does not have Hadiths, no actual authorized interpreted of the
scriptures, no examples of how it is actually supposed to be done. No
study of Fiqh and no actual jurisprudence. No uniformed way of praying,
but then again why do Bahai need it, they are forbidden from Jemaah
(congregational) prayers. For the most part of living as a Bahai, many
things are always up to the individual and this sometimes makes me
wonder; are we the creation or are we God? Its for Allah to teach us
and set rules for us and we as creations to follow as best we can or
repay as best we can, not to leave everything up to us. Always when
Bahais couldn't pray or miss something due to something else, its
Bahais always say "its ok, because its between us and God" and they
just leave it as if it was repaid and take no guilt in missing it. If
that is always the case with Bahais then how is the Bahai Faith to
become a world method of governance. Also the Bahai Faith doesn't have
a way to legislate laws without a Guardian (W&T Abdul Baha) as how
Islam does.
b) Virtually no emphasis is given to the obligatory prayer and
virtually no way of knowing how pious and spiritual a person is because
his daily worship and praise, cannot be seen by others. No uniformity
and opened to interpretations. I understand how the Bahai obligatory
prayers are done but is there any do's and don'ts, like how high, how
low, how wide.....
time does not permit, That's all for now, will post more Insha Allah...
Farihin Abdullah
william pike
>Dear friends,
>
>Assalamualaikum,
Allah'u'Abha
>I personally would like to thank Yassir for steadfastly posting
>arguements on this newsgroup. I think what yassir is trying to
>emphasize is right.
Sorry, but there to many things that Yassir has posted that are
rejected by other Muslims for me to put much cognizance in his
postings.
>I was a Bahai formerly and now I have embraced Islam.
That is your choice, I do hope that at least you had the courtesy to
contact the nearest Baha'i Spiritual Assembly and renounced your
declaration. There is no Fatwa of Apostasy pronounced for renouncing
the Baha'i Faith.
> Of course initially i was pushed to embrace Islam due to marriage,
Your (husband?) was a Muslim and refused to marry/stay married to an
apostate infidel?
> but after some
>time practising it i find that it is more fulfilling and has got more
>system in it than the Bahai Faith.
As I previously said I am quite happy that you have found a place that
you enjoy. If you have shown the respect to formally renounce your
membership in the Baha'i Faith, I would see no problem if you change
your mind at a later time and wish reinstatement.
Please feel free to post anything you wish on the Muslim newsgroups as
I am quite sure you will be very welcome there since you are a "Baha'i
that has seen the truth and rejected the apostasy."
Pax Terra
By their fruits you shall know them.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance"
Galatians 5
PP - PrimaryPioneer - Praiseworthy_Leader
> I was a Bahai formerly and now I have embraced Islam. Of course
> initially i was pushed to embrace Islam due to marriage, but after some
> time practising it i find that it is more fulfilling and has got more
> system in it than the Bahai Faith.
Well, Islam is much bigger and older than the Baha'i Faith, so it is by
this virtue more attractive in some ways. Look at Hinduism - after so
many thousand years it built immense depth.
> 1. Islam
> a) Has an indepth study called Fiqh. In it every aspect of a Muslims
> day to day living has recommendation and obligations. This makes Islam
> more systematic based on the Noble Quran, The Hadiths and jurisprudence
> of the school of thought, in my case Imam Shafiee.
The development of systematic study of Baha'i writings is in its
infancy. The good thing for someone like me is that I can participate
like the early Christian, Jewish, or Muslim converts who helped take
the baby Baha'i Faith to the level of maturity that you see in Islam.
Also, there are much fewer rituals in the Baha'i Faith, making it more
easily adaptable to the various peoples of the world. For this reason
alone, I think the Baha'i Faith will grow much like Protestantism.
Douglas McAdam
again, where doctrines and rituals seem to be the important thing. To
me these are the outer expressions of a religion. Also I find it
strange that Muslims can agree that there has been a progression of
revelations, that God is giving us more and more knowledge from time to
time. However they stopped it with Muhammad, according to the Muslim
interpretation but that is not how Baha'is see it. If it is true the
God has been giving us continuous revelations the going from Baha'i
back to Muslim would be like going against the divine flow of things.
Also I cannot quite see religions as some sort of products on the shelf
of the spiritual store and we go in and choose which one appeals to us.
My feeling is that God has given us these religions as progressive
stepping stones for growing closer and closer to Him.
What has always made sense to me and what I have discovered in my own
independent search for truth is that there is One God, One Religion of
God and One Human Race. His religion has been revealed to us in
progressive stages and now we are in the age of fulfillment of all the
former prophecies and so I cannot see logically or spiritually that I
could be anything but a Baha'i for as a Baha'i I am all of the other
religions rolled into one.
However if you have chosen the Muslim faith for yourself I do hope you
will be happy.
peace,
doug
Farihin
PP - PrimaryPioneer - Praiseworthy_Leader wrote:
> Well, Islam is much bigger and older than the Baha'i Faith, so it is by
> this virtue more attractive in some ways. Look at Hinduism - after so
> many thousand years it built immense depth.
IMHO the BAhai faith cannot grow bigger because its depth of
interpretation and legislation has finished at the end of the
Guardianship. Furthermore, the absence of naratives or traditions on
the examples of The Master makes it even harder to setup principles and
regulations. Until today there is no indepth study regarding Bahai
Ablutions.
> The development of systematic study of Baha'i writings is in its
> infancy. The good thing for someone like me is that I can participate
> like the early Christian, Jewish, or Muslim converts who helped take
> the baby Baha'i Faith to the level of maturity that you see in Islam.
Sorry to say, but this has the excuse given by my NSA and almost every
Bahai I know. If observed, in Islam Imams study the religion up to such
a high level that with their understanding and without contradicting
the Noble Quran they have design principles and sorta way of life for
themselves, hence why there are four great imams in Sunni Islam, that
is Shafiee, Hanbali, Maliki, Hanafi...The difference among them is
marginal.
> Also, there are much fewer rituals in the Baha'i Faith, making it more
> easily adaptable to the various peoples of the world. For this reason
> alone, I think the Baha'i Faith will grow much like Protestantism.
Actually the rituals in Islam has its hidden meanings. And also there
arent many rituals in the first place. Just prayers, ablutions... i
cant think of more... its more of a way of life so that one can live
correctly according to the laws of Allah. Also the so called 'rituals'
tends to bring humility and trust in Allah as a virtue in the
practioners life.
And the exercise is fantastic, just try it. It unlike the Long
Obligatory prayer. Try the muslim way of praying even if you want to
say Bahai prayers... but try first then tell me its should be
abrogated.
Also try going to congregational and judge for yourself whether is it a
way to bring about unity. Without experience, no one can really say
anything. I in the spirit of what Bahaullah said about independent
investigation have tried it out and loved it.
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Subsequent posters will recall this is a Baha'i group. The virtues of Islam can take place at soc.religion.Islam.[Mod]
Firouz
> I was a Bahai formerly and now I have embraced Islam. Of course
> initially i was pushed to embrace Islam due to marriage, but after some
> time practising it i find that it is more fulfilling and has got more
> system in it than the Bahai Faith.
I doubt you were a Baha'i as your knowledge of Baha'i Faith is very very
limited based on what you have written below. Where do you come from? The
reason I am asking is to verify your statement is true or not that you were
a Baha'i and you converted to Islam. Could you prove it or if you give me
more information I can verify that. I used to live in some Arab country in
Middle East and I know many Baha'is in that region.
> Here are some of my observation on the various aspects:
>
> 1. Islam
> a) Has an indepth study called Fiqh. In it every aspect of a Muslims
> day to day living has recommendation and obligations. This makes Islam
> more systematic based on the Noble Quran, The Hadiths and jurisprudence
> of the school of thought, in my case Imam Shafiee.
If you were Baha'i, you should know that there are similar studies and
interpretation of the Writings of Baha'u'llah by His Authorized
Interpreters, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.
Actually to my opinion many Hadiths have been the cause of disunity among
Muslims. Shias and Sunnis refer to different Hadiths to prove their points
but often times these Ahadith have been the cause of fighting and killing of
Muslims by Muslims.
> b) Very very strong emphasis on Five times prayers are obligatory. If
> missed there are ways to repay. Can be said by anyone under any
> circumstances (there are provisions for) except for the insane. It is a
> sacred pillar that is heavily emphasized. Through the daily Fardhu
> Solat, a muslim can be judged by others, gives a clear evidence of his
> spirituality to others. And the methods are uniformed according to
> countries and schools of thought based on the examples of the prophet.
If you were a Baha'i, you should know that obligatory prayers and fastings
are two important pilars of Baha'i Faith very similar to Islam. I don't
think any Baha'i undermine the importance of these polars of their religion.
I am wondering as an ex-Baha'i why you do not know that in Baha'i Faith
there are similar provisions when one misses his/her obligatory prayers.
Please read Kitab-i-Aqdas to learn more about Baha'i laws on ablution and
salAt (obligatory prayers).
Also based on what you wrote above, you like to be judged by other Muslims
that you're a spiritual person. We Baha'is do prefer to be judged by Allah
rather than our fellow human beings. In fact Baha'is are discourage to judge
others.
> c) Congregational (Jemaah) Prayers, a way of unity. Like Nineteen Day
> Feast (NDF), the Jemaah prayers really strengthens the family bond, the
> family being the fundamental unit in society. Because there is an Imam,
> and unlike popular beliefs by Bahais that the in congregational prayers
> the followers do not pray, everyone in the congregational prayers prays
> after the Imam has prayed. So why abrogate it? its effective in my
> opinion.
As you mentioned correctly here Baha'is we do have NDF and that's great for
us. As you may or may not know, the NDF consists of 3 parts, devotional,
administrative, and most importantly the social part. So there is no lack of
social gathering. We Baha'is do not have a clergy or imam to lead us in
prayer. We pray together in our NDF and other devotional meetings. But we do
our obligatory prayers at our private place.
> d) Great emphasis is given to ablutions. When ablution is taken,
> muslims understand that it is symbolic but even so, place great care
> and importance to it application and regulations. A muslim must say his
> prayer with his ablutions intact and not invalidated. Things that would
> invalidate his ablutions and thus his prayer are like coming in contact
> with a woman whom he can marry, touching things that are illegal
> (haram), farting (gas)... things that do not invalidate the ablutions
> and prayers are like food stains, eating, drinking water and beverages
> which are halal.... and so on. So this really disciplines a fellow
> muslim to respect his prayer and sets a good example for
Please read Kitab-i-Aqdas and you will see that Baha'is should do ablution
as well before obligatory prayers. I wonder how an ex-Bahai does not know
about his/her religion.
> 2. Bahai
> a) Does not have Hadiths, no actual authorized interpreted of the
> scriptures, no examples of how it is actually supposed to be done. No
> study of Fiqh and no actual jurisprudence. No uniformed way of praying,
> but then again why do Bahai need it, they are forbidden from Jemaah
> (congregational) prayers.
Actually we do have Hadiths but we do not consider them authorized. We call
them pilgrimage notes. These are the notes taken by individuals who went for
pilgriamge and met Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and the Guardian of the Faith
and took some notes of what They told them. These Baha'i Hadiths are not
authorized and I am happy that these hadiths are not authorized Baha'i
Scripture. In Islam, many of these Hadiths have been the cause of disunity
and that's why there are 72 branches of Islam. And so many killings in the
name of these Hadiths.
Baha'u'llah revealed and signed everything needed to be revealed. His son
Abdul-Baha was appointed by Baha'u'llah to interpret the Writings and He did
a great job on that. After Abdu'l-Baha, His grandson, Shoghi Effendi was
appointed as the guardian of the Faith and the Interpreter of the Writings.
> For the most part of living as a Bahai, many
> things are always up to the individual and this sometimes makes me
> wonder; are we the creation or are we God? Its for Allah to teach us
> and set rules for us and we as creations to follow as best we can or
> repay as best we can, not to leave everything up to us. Always when
> Bahais couldn't pray or miss something due to something else, its
> Bahais always say "its ok, because its between us and God" and they
> just leave it as if it was repaid and take no guilt in missing it. If
> that is always the case with Bahais then how is the Bahai Faith to
> become a world method of governance. Also the Bahai Faith doesn't have
> a way to legislate laws without a Guardian (W&T Abdul Baha) as how
> Islam does.
I guess you're absolutely wrong here. That's why I have been wondering from
very beginning that you never been a Baha'i. Please do read Kitab-i-Aqdas to
learn about the laws of Baha'i Faith. But let's say if someone does not like
to perform the obligatory prayer, that's something between him and Allah. As
Baha'is and Baha'i institutions, we can encourage him and remind him of the
the laws of Baha'i Faith on obligatory prayers, but we cannot punish him.
There are also millions of Muslims who do not perform their obligatory
prayers. Again I suppose that's between them and their own Creator. I am not
going to judge about who is doing and who is not doing the obligatory
prayers.
> b) Virtually no emphasis is given to the obligatory prayer and
> virtually no way of knowing how pious and spiritual a person is because
> his daily worship and praise, cannot be seen by others. No uniformity
> and opened to interpretations. I understand how the Bahai obligatory
> prayers are done but is there any do's and don'ts, like how high, how
> low, how wide.....
Again here it shows your lack of knowledge on Baha'i Faith. Please do more
stud of Baha'i Writings before judging about what is taught in the Faith.
> time does not permit, That's all for now, will post more Insha Allah...
Before posting more, please study more about Baha'i Faith. I am also
interested to learn more about you and your nationality. Where were you
living when you were Baha'i and where do you live now? If you don't want to
answer to such questions in this forum, you're welcome to send me a private
email.
God bless you.
Firouz
Suzanne Gerstner
Farihin wrote:
> Also try going to congregational and judge for yourself whether is it a
> way to bring about unity. Without experience, no one can really say
> anything. I in the spirit of what Bahaullah said about independent
> investigation have tried it out and loved it.
Dear Farihin,
You seem to have excellent English skills in other ways. It's strange that,
if you really were a Baha'i, you don't know how we spell Baha'i and
Baha'u'llah -- with the apostraphes. If I look up the spelling you use in a
Google search, mostly Islamic cites about the Baha'i Faith come up.
I would agree with Firouz, that there are so many really basic things you
don't know about the Baha'i Faith, that's it's difficult to believe that you
were ever a Baha'i. The points you make seem to be very Islamic -- as if
you were raised in those traditions. In fact, I'm not surprised that you
liked what Yassir had to say. You sound very much like Yassir in what you
find important. These are not objections that people from any other religion
would make.
If you weren't always a Muslim, then it sounds like you've found your niche.
Good luck and God bless.
Suzanne
PP PL - humbly yours
> interpretation and legislation has finished at the end of the
> Guardianship. Furthermore, the absence of naratives or traditions on
> the examples of The Master makes it even harder to setup principles and
> regulations. Until today there is no indepth study regarding Bahai
> Ablutions.
Dear Farihin,
Yes, interpretation ended with the Guardian, but we are all given the
candle to interpret the writings for ourselves. In the Baha'i Faith,
the principles and regulations are not to be made of 'saying of people
around Baha'u'llah', but are to be made by the Universal House of
Justice, elected by the Baha'i people. Regarding ablutions and its
study, the positive aspect of the Baha'i Faith is that you, me or
anyone else, in this Glorious Day, is capable of studying it in depth.
In this respect, each one of the average-joe believers is equivalent
leaders and doctors of Islam. We also have two-branches of community
leaders, the learned and the elected.
> Sorry to say, but this has the excuse given by my NSA and almost every
> Bahai I know. If observed, in Islam Imams study the religion up to such
> a high level that with their understanding and without contradicting
> the Noble Quran they have design principles and sorta way of life for
> themselves, hence why there are four great imams in Sunni Islam, that
> is Shafiee, Hanbali, Maliki, Hanafi...The difference among them is
> marginal.
Unlike Islam which only has 1 authorized Book of God, the Baha'i
writings consist of thousands and thousands of books written by the Bab
(dozens of volumes), Baha'u'llah (100 volumes), Abdu'l-Baha (tens of
thousands of letters), and Shoghi Effendi (tens of thousands of
letters) -- and now the Universal House of Justice, which has at least
another 900 years to continue writing. These all carry a lot of weight
for Baha'is because these are considered infallible.
> Actually the rituals in Islam has its hidden meanings. And also there
> arent many rituals in the first place. Just prayers, ablutions... i
> cant think of more... its more of a way of life so that one can live
> correctly according to the laws of Allah. Also the so called 'rituals'
> tends to bring humility and trust in Allah as a virtue in the
> practioners life.
There is nothing about Islam that I object to -- all Baha'u'llah is
proposing is that, just as God has sent Messenger in the past to guide
the people, like Noah, Hud, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, -- God as
again sent the Messenger to unite the whole planet and bring about the
promises of the Mahdi and Issa and the final Judgement of God. And
just like the past, the peoples of the world have rejected God's
Messenger and clung to the rituals and customs of their ancestors. A
lot of lessons are learned by looking at history and the stories of the
Messengers of God.
> And the exercise is fantastic, just try it. It unlike the Long
> Obligatory prayer. Try the muslim way of praying even if you want to
> say Bahai prayers... but try first then tell me its should be
> abrogated.
I am not to say what is abrogated and what is not - this is God's duty.
I do acknowledge the great depth of Islam, because the Qur'an and the
Prophet Muhammad were sent by God.
> Also try going to congregational and judge for yourself whether is it a
> way to bring about unity. Without experience, no one can really say
> anything. I in the spirit of what Bahaullah said about independent
> investigation have tried it out and loved it.
Yes, I agree Islam does bring about unity. Buddhist congregrations
bring about unity. Jewish congregations bring about unity. Christian
congregations bring about unity.
Now God has sent Baha'u'llah to unite all the peoples, Christian and
Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu, within one fold.
Firouz
> IMHO the BAhai faith cannot grow bigger because its depth of
> interpretation and legislation has finished at the end of the
> Guardianship. Furthermore, the absence of naratives or traditions on
> the examples of The Master makes it even harder to setup principles and
> regulations. Until today there is no indepth study regarding Bahai
> Ablutions.
Again you're wrong here. There is the institution of the Universal House of
Justice that has been authorized by Baha'u'llah to legislate. I am not sure
who told you that legislation is finished? Please do read more Baha'i books.
Also Universal House of Justice is authorized to elucidate on matters that
are not clear for Baha'is. For your information, the institution of
Universal of House of Justice is an infallible institution ordained by
Baha'u'llah. But I do not think any of the Imam or clergies in Islam are
infallible as the UHJ.
> Sorry to say, but this has the excuse given by my NSA and almost every
> Bahai I know. If observed, in Islam Imams study the religion up to such
> a high level that with their understanding and without contradicting
> the Noble Quran they have design principles and sorta way of life for
> themselves, hence why there are four great imams in Sunni Islam, that
> is Shafiee, Hanbali, Maliki, Hanafi...The difference among them is
> marginal.
There are many scholars in Baha'i Faith who study Baha'i Writings very
deeply. But these scholars or learned do not have any authority unlike in
Islam. They have just advisory role.
You just mentioned the 4 schools of Sunni above. How about Shia Islam? Don't
you consider them Muslims? How about other branches of Islam, i.e. salafi,
ahmadieh, wahabis, etc?
> Actually the rituals in Islam has its hidden meanings. And also there
> arent many rituals in the first place. Just prayers, ablutions... i
> cant think of more... its more of a way of life so that one can live
> correctly according to the laws of Allah. Also the so called 'rituals'
> tends to bring humility and trust in Allah as a virtue in the
> practioners life.
Here Baha'i Faith is very similar to Islam in terms of ritual.
> And the exercise is fantastic, just try it. It unlike the Long
> Obligatory prayer. Try the muslim way of praying even if you want to
> say Bahai prayers... but try first then tell me its should be
> abrogated.
For your information, I was born a Muslim, and I became Baha'i by myself and
I have dome Muslim salAt (obligatory prayer) and fasting too and many other
rituals. I know well the difference.
> Also try going to congregational and judge for yourself whether is it a
> way to bring about unity. Without experience, no one can really say
> anything. I in the spirit of what Bahaullah said about independent
> investigation have tried it out and loved it.
I have done so. Where is unity among Muslims today? Sunnis killing Shias,
Shias killing Muslims, even among Sunni Nations I do not see unity. Please
look clearly upon Muslim countries and tell me which one has unity among its
own peoples.
regards,
Firouz
Farihin
Suzanne Gerstner wrote:
> Dear Farihin,
> You seem to have excellent English skills in other ways. It's strange that,
> if you really were a Baha'i, you don't know how we spell Baha'i and
> Baha'u'llah -- with the apostraphes. If I look up the spelling you use in a
> Google search, mostly Islamic cites about the Baha'i Faith come up.
Thank you. for the sake of brevity, i wrote without apostraphes, no
disrespect intended.
> I would agree with Firouz, that there are so many really basic things you
> don't know about the Baha'i Faith, that's it's difficult to believe that you
> were ever a Baha'i. The points you make seem to be very Islamic -- as if
> you were raised in those traditions. In fact, I'm not surprised that you
> liked what Yassir had to say. You sound very much like Yassir in what you
> find important. These are not objections that people from any other religion
> would make.
Now my credibility as Bahai is at stake...? it's really sad, coz i
serve as an LSA member, we had the 'One thousand' teaching project
which i participated when i was about 15 years old - we brought in 1000
believers, involved in the oganizing committee of various Bahai
teaching campaigns.... so involved that when i wanted to leave, the NSA
had a meeting with me to encourage me not too...
Spiritually involved as well, in the aspects of prayers devotional,
obligatory matters like fasting, Ayyami-Ha, Ridvan Celebrations,
Observing the 9 Holy days where as a Bahai I would try to take leave...
Lived as a Bahai for 25 years, and my family still Bahais...
I feel that what Yassir has been trying to tell is that which muslim
would leave his very ordered life, that is full of prayer and
practicality and join the Bahai Faith which in principle sounds great,
but in practice falls tremendously short of an actual religion.
> If you weren't always a Muslim, then it sounds like you've found your niche.
> Good luck and God bless.
I wasn't a muslim before, but i would like to be one. That's why i can
see a great contrast between the religions... As a Bahai I have never
felt much of Bahaullah's writting meant much to me, IMHO i felt that i
was more filled with praise of Allah and that's it. Other prophecies
are not really 'head turning'. Most of what was written by Bahaullah
was already present in Islamic teaching, so to a muslim it is nothing
new... and that's what Yassir was trying to emphasize. I didn't get it
then, but i get it now...
Farihin
Douglas McAdam wrote:
> Well my friend. This sort of sounds to me like the same old thing
> again, where doctrines and rituals seem to be the important thing. To
> me these are the outer expressions of a religion. Also I find it
> strange that Muslims can agree that there has been a progression of
> revelations, that God is giving us more and more knowledge from time to
> time. However they stopped it with Muhammad, according to the Muslim
> interpretation but that is not how Baha'is see it. If it is true the
> God has been giving us continuous revelations the going from Baha'i
> back to Muslim would be like going against the divine flow of things.
Thats the fundamental theme of the Bahai Faith, but for the majority of
Sunni muslims in peaceful countries will not see the need to convert to
the Bahai Faith. For them it is very incomplete as what Yassir has been
trying to convey all this while.
The solats are already so systematic, from its timing, right down to
the numbers of rakaats and the nitty-gritty that goes along with it.
Then why suddenly is this abrogated and left to be irrelevent is
something very puzzling. Furthermore, it has been replaced with another
set of Solats that have no system compared to Islam. I can see that the
Bahai obligatory prayer is thus inferior to the Muslim prayer and would
really really go against the divine flow of things... thats just how i
view it. I know this really makes the blood boil to have to read,
believe me i used to feel that way, but that's the gist of a muslims
arguement.
It easy to prove to a christian or hindu the ease and modernity of the
Bahai Faith, but an uphill task to a muslim, because whatever that is
in Bahai Faith was already in Islam an Millenia ago.
> Also I cannot quite see religions as some sort of products on the shelf
> of the spiritual store and we go in and choose which one appeals to us.
> My feeling is that God has given us these religions as progressive
> stepping stones for growing closer and closer to Him.
My... thats what you're doing as well. You chose the Bahai Faith
because i must have made sense to you at some point or another. Real
question is, is the Bahai Faith a real progression from Islam.
Personally i feel justice works both ways...
> What has always made sense to me and what I have discovered in my own
> independent search for truth is that there is One God, One Religion of
> God and One Human Race. His religion has been revealed to us in
> progressive stages and now we are in the age of fulfillment of all the
> former prophecies and so I cannot see logically or spiritually that I
> could be anything but a Baha'i for as a Baha'i I am all of the other
> religions rolled into one.
The feeling was mutual. But when i was a Bahai, i really tried to lived
up to Bahaullah's standards, he said in order to be just, we have to
free ourselves from heaven and hell, from every worldly attachment,
investigate independently and then make a judgement. In that spirit i
investigated Islam, I learnt sincerely and my teachers were all nothing
short of pure hearted, humble and loving souls.. the sort of humbleness
that no Bahai even myself have potrayed in my life. Then the thought
came to me that this 'Muslims' have reached the actual standard that a
Bahai should be... but most of the Bahais in my country are just
adverse. In order to be a true Bahai, a true servant of Allah, one must
embrace Islam and its way....
> However if you have chosen the Muslim faith for yourself I do hope you
> will be happy.
Thanks. I would urge anyone to have this spirit of independent
investigation that Bahaullah speaks about. Just reading about Islam
would not cut it, its a 'trust in Allah' way of life an its very
fulfilling. I cannot put it more into words...
Gilberto Simpson
> Farihin:
> > IMHO the BAhai faith cannot grow bigger because its depth of
> > interpretation and legislation has finished at the end of the
> > Guardianship. Furthermore, the absence of naratives or traditions on
> > the examples of The Master makes it even harder to setup principles and
> > regulations. Until today there is no indepth study regarding Bahai
> > Ablutions.
> Again you're wrong here. There is the institution of the Universal House of
> Justice that has been authorized by Baha'u'llah to legislate. I am not sure who told you that legislation is finished?
I've heard from actual Bahais face-to-face that the UHJ doesn't
legislate and only interprets the existing laws. I'm not arguing about
whether that is correct or incorrect, but it is something that at
least a few Bahais say and apparently believe.
> For your information, the institution of
> Universal of House of Justice is an infallible
> institution ordained by Baha'u'llah. But I do not think
> any of the Imam or clergies in Islam are infallible as
> the UHJ.
The claim that the UHJ is infallible is not a matter of "information".
It is a Bahai dogma (in the dictionary sense). It is something Bahais
believe on faith but I don't see how you can expect non-Bahais to
believe it too. (If they did, they would be Bahais).
Peace
Gilberto
william pike
<gilberto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 7/7/05, Firouz <fir...@thai-bahais.org> wrote:
>> Farihin:
>> > IMHO the BAhai faith cannot grow bigger because its depth of
>> > interpretation and legislation has finished at the end of the
>> > Guardianship. Furthermore, the absence of naratives or traditions on
>> > the examples of The Master makes it even harder to setup principles and
>> > regulations. Until today there is no indepth study regarding Bahai
>> > Ablutions.
>
>> Again you're wrong here. There is the institution of the Universal House of
>> Justice that has been authorized by Baha'u'llah to legislate. I am not sure who told you that legislation is finished?
>
>I've heard from actual Bahais face-to-face that the UHJ doesn't
>legislate and only interprets the existing laws. I'm not arguing about
>whether that is correct or incorrect, but it is something that at
>least a few Bahais say and apparently believe.
My understanding is that the Universal House of Justice only
"legislates" on subjects which are NOT already legislated in the
scriptures. The Universal House of Justice has been/is grant
infallibility for this process directly by His Holiness Baha'u'llah.
The membership of the Universal House of Justice is not granted this
infallibility, it is only when the full body meets that this
infallibility takes effect.
As far as interpretation of existing laws the Universal House of
Justice cannot "interpret" anything that has been previously
written/expounded by His Holiness Baha'u'llah, 'Abdul Baha or The
Guardian. However the "translation" of untranslated scriptures is an
ongoing process.
>> For your information, the institution of
>> Universal of House of Justice is an infallible
>> institution ordained by Baha'u'llah. But I do not think
>> any of the Imam or clergies in Islam are infallible as
>> the UHJ.
>The claim that the UHJ is infallible is not a matter of "information".
>It is a Bahai dogma (in the dictionary sense). It is something Bahais
>believe on faith but I don't see how you can expect non-Bahais to
>believe it too. (If they did, they would be Bahais).
Actually it is from the Scriptures of Baha'u'llah and written directly
by Him. The infallibility of the Universal House of Justice has
absolutely no dependence on any other person or persons for its
infallibility.
Firouz
> Now my credibility as Bahai is at stake...? it's really sad, coz i
> serve as an LSA member, we had the 'One thousand' teaching project
> which i participated when i was about 15 years old - we brought in 1000
> believers, involved in the oganizing committee of various Bahai
> teaching campaigns.... so involved that when i wanted to leave, the NSA
> had a meeting with me to encourage me not too...
If you were really a Baha'i, you should know that we have Baha'i
administration. All LSAs and NSAs keep the records of Baha'is in their
jurisdiction. If you provide your real name and the city that you were
living, all could be verified. The reason I doubt that you were a Baha'i is
the lack of knowledge on your part about the very basic Teachings of
Baha'u'llah on the two pilars of Baha'i Faith, namely obligatory prayers and
fasting.
> Spiritually involved as well, in the aspects of prayers devotional,
> obligatory matters like fasting, Ayyami-Ha, Ridvan Celebrations,
> Observing the 9 Holy days where as a Bahai I would try to take leave...
> Lived as a Bahai for 25 years, and my family still Bahais...
How come such an active Baha'i like you did not know about ablution and
other laws of Baha'i Faith?
> I feel that what Yassir has been trying to tell is that which muslim
> would leave his very ordered life, that is full of prayer and
> practicality and join the Bahai Faith which in principle sounds great,
> but in practice falls tremendously short of an actual religion.
I am not sure why you have been so much in support of Yassir? There are two
Muslim friends here. I think the Gilberto has a much better understanding of
Islam than Yassir. Gilberto dicusses serious matters but Yassir has just
been arguing about passing gas. I personally believe Gilberto is a real
Muslim and on this forum I have praised him and said that I wish most Muslim
were like him.
God bless,
Firouz
Matt Menge
>>I personally would like to thank Yassir for steadfastly posting
arguements on this newsgroup. I think what yassir is trying to
emphasize is right.
>>I was a Bahai formerly and now I have embraced Islam.
Well, at least you picked a good religion.
>1. Islam
>a) Has an indepth study called Fiqh. In it every aspect >of a Muslims day to day living has recommendation >and obligations. This makes Islam more systematic >based on the Noble Quran, The Hadiths and >jurisprudence of the school of thought, in my case >Imam Shafiee.
Shi'i Islam, I am impressed! I am actually not to familiar with Fiqh,
except that I believe that Ayatullah is based on the Vilayat-i-Fiqh, so
I am assuming Fiqh could be translated as jurisprudence.
The norm in Baha'i thought is that at least the House of Justice
shouldn't give too detailed an interpretation of Baha'i law, leaving
the believers some latitude in personal interpretation. However, this
may not stop individual scholars.
>>b) Very very strong emphasis on Five times prayers are obligatory. If
missed there are ways to repay. Can be said by anyone under any
circumstances (there are provisions for) except for the insane. It is a
sacred pillar that is heavily emphasized. Through the daily Fardhu
Solat, a muslim can be judged by others, gives a clear evidence of his
spirituality to others. And the methods are uniformed according to
countries and schools of thought based on the examples of the prophet.
Actually, the Baha'i Faith also puts very heavy emphasis on Obligatory
Prayer. Baha'u'llah once said that fasting is the sun, prayer is the
moon, and the other laws are as stars. If I may be so bold, simply
because you do did not practice Obligatory Prayer did not mean it was
not important!
>>c) Congregational (Jemaah) Prayers, a way of unity. Like Nineteen Day
Feast (NDF), the Jemaah prayers really strengthens the family bond, the
family being the fundamental unit in society. Because there is an Imam,
and unlike popular beliefs by Bahais that the in congregational prayers
the followers do not pray, everyone in the congregational prayers prays
after the Imam has prayed.
I have never, ever heard this. Even in Catholic churches people join
in cengregational prayer, and Catholics are a lot less devout than
Muslims.
>> So why abrogate it? its effective in my
opinion.
It is an interesting argument. But I have never heard that people
don't pray in congregational prayer, in any religion.
>>d) Great emphasis is given to ablutions. When ablution is taken,
muslims understand that it is symbolic but even so, place great care
and importance to it application and regulations.
Yes, we could probably learn from Islam in this regard. In my
ablutions I wash up to my elbows, but I admit I borrowed this from the
Qur'an.
>>Things that would
invalidate his ablutions and thus his prayer are like coming in contact
with a woman whom he can marry, touching things that are illegal
(haram), farting (gas)...
I'll have to think about that.
>>2. Bahai
a) Does not have Hadiths,
Actually, we do have Hadiths, we just attach less importance to them.
>>no actual authorized interpreted of the
scriptures, no examples of how it is actually supposed to be done.
I don't follow.
>> No
study of Fiqh and no actual jurisprudence.
What about the House of Justice?
>> No uniformed way of praying,
but then again why do Bahai need it, they are forbidden from Jemaah
(congregational) prayers.
Actually, in the Tablet of Ittihad (Unity) it is stipulated that our
rituals should be more or less uniform. This is just a law that has
not yet been enacted.
>> For the most part of living as a Bahai, many
things are always up to the individual and this sometimes makes me
wonder; are we the creation or are we God?
Just because something is regimented doesn't mean it comes from God.
>> Always when
Bahais couldn't pray or miss something due to something else, its
Bahais always say "its ok, because its between us and God" and they
just leave it as if it was repaid and take no guilt in missing it.
I doubt that they feel no guilt. I can tell you personally that I have
only missed a few Obligatory Prayers in the last few years and I
usually feel pretty guilty.
>> Also the Bahai Faith doesn't have
a way to legislate laws without a Guardian (W&T Abdul Baha) as how
Islam does.
Presumably you mean legislation about prayers; the actual function of
the House of Justice is to legislate. We simply look to Baha'i
scholars for guidance, rather than the House of Justice.
>>b) Virtually no emphasis is given to the obligatory prayer
No. YOU gave virtually no emphasis to Oblogatory Prayer. When I first
became a Baha'i I was so excited about Obligatory Prayer that I was
mistakenly reciting the Short Healing Prayer, nor realizing that it
wasn't the Short Obligatory Prayer.
>>and
virtually no way of knowing how pious and spiritual a person is because
his daily worship and praise, cannot be seen by others.
Yes, and apparently congregational prayer seems to work for YOU. Good
for you.
Best Regards,
Matt
william pike
wrote:
<snipped>
> If it is true the
>> God has been giving us continuous revelations the going from Baha'i
>> back to Muslim would be like going against the divine flow of things.
>Thats the fundamental theme of the Bahai Faith, but for the majority of
>Sunni muslims in peaceful countries will not see the need to convert to
>the Bahai Faith. For them it is very incomplete as what Yassir has been
>trying to convey all this while.
Actually it is because Muslim "scholars" have expounded on four words,
in the Sura of the Cow, to discount any revelation from God after His
Holiness Muhammad. Previously in the same sentence His Holiness
Muhammad states that He is the father of none.
That said, the Muslims are expecting the return of His Holiness
Christ, that is exactly what His Holiness Baha'u'llah is. So the
"Seal of the Prophets" argument is irrelevant.
>The solats are already so systematic, from its timing, right down to
>the numbers of rakaats and the nitty-gritty that goes along with it.
>Then why suddenly is this abrogated and left to be irrelevent is
>something very puzzling. Furthermore, it has been replaced with another
>set of Solats that have no system compared to Islam. I can see that the
>Bahai obligatory prayer is thus inferior to the Muslim prayer and would
>really really go against the divine flow of things... thats just how i
>view it. I know this really makes the blood boil to have to read,
>believe me i used to feel that way, but that's the gist of a muslims
>arguement.
The Jews have many more "solats" than the Muslims have ever had, they
cover more situations than the Muslims "solats" do. You would be much
happier to be a Jew than a Muslim.
>It easy to prove to a christian or hindu the ease and modernity of the
>Bahai Faith, but an uphill task to a muslim, because whatever that is
>in Bahai Faith was already in Islam an Millenia ago.
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink."
>> Also I cannot quite see religions as some sort of products on the shelf
>> of the spiritual store and we go in and choose which one appeals to us.
>> My feeling is that God has given us these religions as progressive
>> stepping stones for growing closer and closer to Him.
>
>My... thats what you're doing as well. You chose the Bahai Faith
>because i must have made sense to you at some point or another. Real
>question is, is the Bahai Faith a real progression from Islam.
>Personally i feel justice works both ways..
.
So what about the 25,000 Baha'is that were murdered by the Muslims,
for no reason other than they were Baha'is? What about the 10 women
that were hung in Iran by the Iranian religious leaders a few years
ago. For that matter what about the Muslim countries where it is
illegal for a person to be a member of the Baha'i Faith? Are there
any countries in the world where it is against the law to be Muslim? I
know of none. Yet in 3 Muslim countries membership in the Baha'i Faith
is against the laws of the country.
Do you really feel that "Justice works both ways?"
BTW the Baha'i Faith is part of "Islam" according the Muslim
definition of "Islam."
<snipped>
>Thanks. I would urge anyone to have this spirit of independent
>investigation that Bahaullah speaks about. Just reading about Islam
>would not cut it, its a 'trust in Allah' way of life an its very
>fulfilling. I cannot put it more into words...
I compliment you on your English and command of the English language.
Just curious but you capitalize the Baha'i Faith yet you fail to
capitalize the religions of the Jews and the Christians, I have never
seen a Baha'i that would do/has done this.
However,I find it very interesting that a person who purports to have
been a knowledgeable member of the Baha'i Faith cannot correctly spell
either Baha'i or Baha'u'llah and is unaware of some of the fundamental
teachings, procedures and principles.
Pax Terra
By their fruits you shall know them.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance"
Alsatians 5
Firouz
>> Again you're wrong here. There is the institution of the Universal House
>> of
>> Justice that has been authorized by Baha'u'llah to legislate. I am not
>> sure who told you that legislation is finished?
Gilberto:
> I've heard from actual Bahais face-to-face that the UHJ doesn't
> legislate and only interprets the existing laws. I'm not arguing about
> whether that is correct or incorrect, but it is something that at
> least a few Bahais say and apparently believe.
That may be true. Baha'is may say what they think is right. Muslims the same
way. But a scholar does not believe anything based on what someone says.
This is more true for Baha'is. Baha'is are encouraged for independent
investigation of truth. You can read by yourself. I can say that many
Muslims believe that Mahdi will come from somewhere in Madina and will do so
and so. But whether that's what Prophet Muhammad taught is a different
story.
>> For your information, the institution of
>> Universal of House of Justice is an infallible
>> institution ordained by Baha'u'llah. But I do not think
>> any of the Imam or clergies in Islam are infallible as
>> the UHJ.
> The claim that the UHJ is infallible is not a matter of "information".
> It is a Bahai dogma (in the dictionary sense). It is something Bahais
> believe on faith but I don't see how you can expect non-Bahais to
> believe it too. (If they did, they would be Bahais).
Yes, we Baha'is believe what Baha'u'llah says. We believe in His Laws and we
believe that He is the Supreme Manifestation of God. We do not expect
non-Baha'is to believe in the infallibility of the House of Justice. But
your Muslim friend cannot say here that Universal House of Justice cannot
legislate. For your information, Prophet Muhammad did not declare anyone
after Him to be infallible. Did He?
regards,
Firouz
sma...@jam.rr.com
> Now my credibility as Bahai is at stake...? it's really sad, coz i
> serve as an LSA member, we had the 'One thousand' teaching project
> which i participated when i was about 15 years old - we brought in 1000
> believers,
Dear Farahin,
I've never heard of this project. When and where was it? Which LSA were
you a member of?
involved in the oganizing committee of various Bahai
> teaching campaigns.... so involved that when i wanted to leave, the NSA
> had a meeting with me to encourage me not too...
Which NSA was that?
warmest, Susan
sma...@jam.rr.com
> interpretation and legislation has finished at the end of the
> Guardianship.
Dear Farahin,
I would think that as a former Baha'i you would be better acquainted
with the fact that legislation is a function of the Universal House of
Justice, not the Guardianship.
Furthermore, the absence of naratives or traditions on
> the examples of The Master makes it even harder to setup principles and
> regulations. Until today there is no indepth study regarding Bahai
> Ablutions.
That is true. The Universal House of Justice does not wish to see us
become bogged down with such minutae.
>
> Sorry to say, but this has the excuse given by my NSA and almost every
> Bahai I know. If observed, in Islam Imams study the religion up to such
> a high level that with their understanding and without contradicting
> the Noble Quran they have design principles and sorta way of life for
> themselves, hence why there are four great imams in Sunni Islam, that
> is Shafiee, Hanbali, Maliki, Hanafi...The difference among them is
> marginal.
So you are a Sunni? I find it strange that you would object to
interpretation ending with the passing of Shoghi Effendi in that case.
Sunni Muslims believe the bab-i ijtihad or the gate of interpretation
was closed back in the 9th century!
> And the exercise is fantastic, just try it. It unlike the Long
> Obligatory prayer. Try the muslim way of praying even if you want to
> say Bahai prayers... but try first then tell me its should be
> abrogated.
I've done both. I find the Baha'i obligatory prayers to have much more
substance, personally.
But I don't really find such comparisons all that useful. There are
lots of ways of praying and each can be fulfilling in their own way.
warmest, Susan
sma...@jam.rr.com
> I've heard from actual Bahais face-to-face that the UHJ doesn't
> legislate and only interprets the existing laws.
Dear Gilberto,
I'm guessing that you were confused about what they were saying.
Besides legislate the Will and Testament does give the Universal House
of Justice the right to decide issues which are causing differences.
This usually involves what we call 'elucidation' on legal matters. That
may be limited sort of interpretation. But their main function is
legislation.
warmest, Susan
Farihin
> Dear Farahin,
> I've never heard of this project. When and where was it? Which LSA were
> you a member of?
a town near Kuala Lumpur, I'd rather not mention.
> involved in the oganizing committee of various Bahai
> > teaching campaigns.... so involved that when i wanted to leave, the NSA
> > had a meeting with me to encourage me not too...
>
> Which NSA was that?
Malaysia
kha...@sbcglobal.net
So you are a Sunni? I find it strange that you would object to
interpretation ending with the passing of Shoghi Effendi in that case.
Sunni Muslims believe the bab-i ijtihad or the gate of interpretation
was closed back in the 9th century!
Dear Susan,
Babu-l-Ijtihaad is always open,I dont know where you got that idea!
"who ever innovate a good innovation will get it's reward and the
reward
of the People who follow it" Prophet said about Bid3a Hassanah.
You can not invent a Bid3a Hassanah without Bab al Ijtihad wide open.
Wa Salaam.
Yassir.
sma...@jam.rr.com
> >It is a Bahai dogma (in the dictionary sense). It is something Bahais
> >believe on faith but I don't see how you can expect non-Bahais to
> >believe it too. (If they did, they would be Bahais).
> Actually it is from the Scriptures of Baha'u'llah and written directly
> by Him.
Dear William,
I can't think of any place where Baha'u'llah talks about the
infallibility of the Universal House of Justice, can you? I think those
references are all from Abdu'l-Baha.
The infallibility of the Universal House of Justice has
> absolutely no dependence on any other person or persons for its
> infallibility.
If by that you mean it is not dependent on the presence of a living
Guardian, I would agree. But only Baha'u'llah and the Manifestations
have innate infallibility. Abdu'l-Baha states that the infallibility of
the Universal House of Justice is by virtue of their being under the
protection of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
warmest, Susan
Farihin
> Well, at least you picked a good religion.
thank you,
> Shi'i Islam, I am impressed! I am actually not to familiar with Fiqh,
> except that I believe that Ayatullah is based on the Vilayat-i-Fiqh, so
> I am assuming Fiqh could be translated as jurisprudence.
Its not Shi'i Islam, Its Sunnah Wal-Jemaah (SUNNI). Fiqh is a branch of
study about the principles of the religion. Within Fiqh, it goes by
priority, 1st - Quran, 2nd -Hadith (Even within this there is a study
of authencity), 3rd - Ijmak Mujtahid (Something like fatwa and decree
for a certain country or area by its recognised religious head) and 4th
- Qias (something like common sense)
Just to contrast it to the Bahai Faith, Islam has clearly five Hukum
(implementations):
a) Obligatory (Orders that must be done)
b) Sunnat ( Orders if done begets bounties and if left is not sin)
c) Haram (Forbidden in the harshes way, if overstepped leads to hell)
d) Makruh (Light restrictions where if observed begets bounty, if
broken does no harm either)
f) HARUS (Should... whether done or not begets to neither bounty nor
hell)
Has the Bahai faith categorized it laws into such a perspective that
its adherents can understand it depth..?
> The norm in Baha'i thought is that at least the House of Justice
> shouldn't give too detailed an interpretation of Baha'i law, leaving
> the believers some latitude in personal interpretation. However, this
> may not stop individual scholars.
So what does personal interpretation tell you about the Pillars of the
Bahai Religion? How many are there? Are there any pillars of faith? In
islam there are... and this constitutes the basis of a muslims
belief... and all derived through the study of FIQH.
> I have never, ever heard this. Even in Catholic churches people join
> in cengregational prayer, and Catholics are a lot less devout than
> Muslims.
There's a difference my friend. Can catholics perform congregational
prayers at home and is it uniformed? If yes, are they systematic?
Tha main reason why i said so is because of popular belief that Islamic
methods of congregational prayer is outdated and needs to be replaced
by new law of Bahaullah. Because Bahais, especially in my country argue
that Muslim congregational prayers don't allow its Jemaah (follower in
congregation) to pray on their own, everyone simply listens to the Imam
and utter 'amin...amin'. I'm saying that this belief is hogwash because
as Muslims, everyone has to say their own prayers ... contradictory to
popular Bahai belief and arguement.
> It is an interesting argument. But I have never heard that people
> don't pray in congregational prayer, in any religion.
I have, as a Bahai... and this made Islam look like a stupd mans
religion back then. But when i really really got into it, then i found
that its depth far surpasses the study in the Bahai Faith...
> Yes, we could probably learn from Islam in this regard. In my
> ablutions I wash up to my elbows, but I admit I borrowed this from the
> Qur'an.
Once you agree to that, then it simply disproves that the Bahai Faith
is a progress from Islam.... since of course Bahais could learn from
Islam.
> Actually, we do have Hadiths, we just attach less importance to them.
The Hadith contains not only the examples of the prophet, but also what
he has said on the various aspects of life, Do's and dont's,
interpretations of many metaphorical matters from the Quran. Quran
without the Hadiths is like Aqdas without Abdul Baha...
So if the entire Sunni population has already concurred through the
study of Fiqh and hadith that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the Last
Prophet why can't Bahais understand that? Don't tell me that during
the time of the prophet, none of the cmpanions or the people in general
would have ask and ascertain this question? and then write it down. If
the muslims of the world at that time knew about the coming of other
prophets surely they would have made a hadiths out of it.
The arguement that 'thats allegorical and this is allegorical' really
must stp because its really getting out of hand. When Bahais are pushed
to the point where he really cannot explain, then he goes 'ahhh that's
just allegorical'. Looks like Bahais like very much to follow and try
to explain the allegorical things in the Quran, but consider that:
7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic
or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the
Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity
follow the part there of that is allegorical, seeking discord, and
searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings
except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We
believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord;" and none will
grasp the Message except men of understanding.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)
which part of : -'But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the
part there of that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for
its hidden meanings'- don't bahais get?
Its clear that Islam is one religion, a religion. But the Bahais always
want to 'allegorical this and allegorical that' until the Bahai faith
is an allegorical religion... since islam is one religion now, why do
Bahais want to develop another religion by another name, seeking
discord using the allegorical and trying to search its hidden meanings?
I know the answer, Bahaullah was sent by God, so he has the
authority... so is it ok now to go against the first principle that
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last Messenger? Somehow I know that the
next aguement will be about 'Manisfestation not jus Messenger'... but
you guys got to get it straight.
> >>no actual authorized interpreted of the
> scriptures, no examples of how it is actually supposed to be done.
>
> I don't follow.
In the hadith, there are many examples shown by the Prophet (PBUH) on
how prayer is done.... so this becomes authorative and implemented. I'm
talking about detailed instructions on how to supplicate Takbiratul
Ihram, How to ruku (bend), how to prostate... what constitutes a
rakaat.... many many things. It has set for its followers a way of life
based on the prophets life.
> >> No
> study of Fiqh and no actual jurisprudence.
> What about the House of Justice?
When i was a Bahai, a community member told me that the UHJ has a light
outside their deliberation room. During consultations, this light is on
and another light at the Shrine of the Bab will be on as well, and this
constitutes a mystical connection to God, His faith and renders the UHJ
infallible (apart from the writings of course)... come on!!
Infallibility? Nine ordinary people can become infallible when they
deliberate together? I used to believe this, but i realized that these
people are only people even during their deliberation. If they are sooo
infallible why cant they interpret? Have you thought about that?
Since there are thousands of literature still untranslated, how in the
world is the house of justice going to translate when they have only
the guidelines to translate whatever that has been translated only.
Even they wouldn't know what new themes will come up in the
translations of other tablets... so how? Dead End, I feel.
> >> No uniformed way of praying,
> but then again why do Bahai need it, they are forbidden from Jemaah
> (congregational) prayers.
>
> Actually, in the Tablet of Ittihad (Unity) it is stipulated that our
> rituals should be more or less uniform. This is just a law that has
> not yet been enacted.
Again whats the point of uniforming Bahai's rituals? They cannot
perform it together. If you've been to a mosque for Maghrib prayers you
can understand what i'm talking about. If you a devout muslim family
neighbour, observe how they perform the Jemaah prayers and you will
feel the family unity.
> >> For the most part of living as a Bahai, many
> things are always up to the individual and this sometimes makes me
> wonder; are we the creation or are we God?
>
> Just because something is regimented doesn't mean it comes from God.
>
> >> Always when
> Bahais couldn't pray or miss something due to something else, its
> Bahais always say "its ok, because its between us and God" and they
> just leave it as if it was repaid and take no guilt in missing it.
>
> I doubt that they feel no guilt. I can tell you personally that I have
> only missed a few Obligatory Prayers in the last few years and I
> usually feel pretty guilty.
That's fine and good. But what i'm saying is that a geat majority of
Bahais are not like you and this influences the strength of that
particular pillar. Can a Bahai go up to another Bahai and ask whether
has he prayed obligatory prayer or not? if not, can a Bahai urge this
person to pray? Surely the other bahai would just answer 'Its between
me and God, so mind your own business' and this gives a method to
eventually forget the whole thing. Its different in Islam, this
question can asked five times and if the person is never known to have
prayed, then action can be taken against him... for someone like that
there is no religion, no islam for him without obligatory prayer being
performed.
> >> Also the Bahai Faith doesn't have
> a way to legislate laws without a Guardian (W&T Abdul Baha) as how
> Islam does.
>
> Presumably you mean legislation about prayers; the actual function of
> the House of Justice is to legislate. We simply look to Baha'i
> scholars for guidance, rather than the House of Justice.
Next question is who are the bahai scholars? They are not given any
recognition like how an Imam is given... so how to know? Everyone who
just reads more is a scholar, right? In islam, its different, the man
learned enough to lead prayers and becomes the point of answers for his
community,in other words, a leader, an Imam ... he is a scholar.
> >>b) Virtually no emphasis is given to the obligatory prayer
>
> No. YOU gave virtually no emphasis to Oblogatory Prayer. When I first
> became a Baha'i I was so excited about Obligatory Prayer that I was
> mistakenly reciting the Short Healing Prayer, nor realizing that it
> wasn't the Short Obligatory Prayer.
Good, but you've just procured another point of discussion. When u
first became a Bahai or any new Bahai convert in general, there was
obviously no basic guidance given to them. Unlike in Islam, if you
convert to Islam, you must go for fundamental classes to strengthen
your faith... and here they teach about the Pillars of Islam, The
Pillars of Faith... all the basics enough for you start living the
living the life.
> >>and
> virtually no way of knowing how pious and spiritual a person is because
>
> his daily worship and praise, cannot be seen by others.
>
> Yes, and apparently congregational prayer seems to work for YOU. Good
> for you.
If i sounded very demeaning i apologize, many of what i said its not
directed to you, but sometimes the Bahai world in general.
Waalaikum
Piedmont
"Farihin" <nawi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120641910.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Dear friends,
>
> Assalamualaikum,
>
> I personally would like to thank Yassir for steadfastly posting
> arguements on this newsgroup. I think what yassir is trying to
> emphasize is right.
>
>
> time does not permit, That's all for now, will post more Insha Allah...
>
> Farihin Abdullah
>
I am a new Baha'i by just a few months. I had little to none religious
teachings of any kind most of my life. I respect your choice of faith as it
comes from the same source as most faiths in one God.
The reason I finally decided to actually affiliate myself with "a faith" was
due to the goals of unity.
I see the older faiths as lifeboats, all isolated from one another, yet
serving the same purpose. To bring each and every one of us to God. I see a
large boat in the distance where the lifeboats are heading.
This is in reverse of what we know about lifeboats in that we start out in
the big ship, but climb down into the small lifeboats to save our lives.
In my vision we started out in the lifeboats, all separated but guided by
God, and we will all end up, together, in unity, in the large (Baha'i faith)
boat.
I refused to climb into any of the lifeboats (various faiths) because for
some reason I could see the separateness of them but I eagerly have climbed
onto the big ship where we all wait for the small lifeboats to catch us and
join us in one, united in the love of God.
--
Mike Willsey (Piedmont)
Firouz
> a town near Kuala Lumpur, I'd rather not mention.
I live in Thailand and I have been visiting Malaysia couple of times a year.
I never heard of any teaching projects that have brought thousands to the
Faith. What's wong to mention the name of the city that you were a member of
LSA in Malaysia?
I should say that Baha'is of Malaysia are very deepened and strong about the
Faith. They know the laws very well. I found that Malaysian Baha'is are the
most deepened Baha'is in South East Asia. I wonder how an LSA member in a
city in Malaysia does not know about some basic Baha'i laws.
Are you Chinese, Indian, or Malay?
God bless,
Firouz
sma...@jam.rr.com
Dear Farihin,
I'm still interested to hear about this 'project of a thousand' you
were involved in. Where and when was this? And what Assembly were you
serving on. You mentioned you met with the NSA before you withdrew, but
earlier you admitted that you initially withdrew because of martial
pressures. I'm curious to hear which NSA that was. It is hard for me to
imagine a firm believer leaving their religion just to please their
spouse. Isn't that shirk, making your spouse a partner with God?
warmest, Susan
sma...@jam.rr.com
> "who ever innovate a good innovation will get it's reward and the
> reward
> of the People who follow it" Prophet said about Bid3a Hassanah.
> You can not invent a Bid3a Hassanah without Bab al Ijtihad wide open.
Yassir,
I'm not familiar with that hadith. Is it sahih? Most Muslims I know
equat bidaa with heresy. And the only Sunni school I know of which
regards the bab-i ijtihad open is the Hanbali school to which the
Wahhabis and other Islamist extremist belong. Unfortunately, far from
using ijtihad to bring about positive innovation, they have used it to
forbid women to drive cars and to justify terrorist attacks on
civilians.
warmest, Susan
Gilberto Simpson
> >
> > I've heard from actual Bahais face-to-face that the UHJ doesn't
> > legislate and only interprets the existing laws.
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> I'm guessing that you were confused about what they were saying.
No. One Bahai was trying to explain their take on certain Bahai
teachings. And another person who had been a Bahai for a longer period
of time was correcting them.
Even in this newsgroup, it is not that hard to find examples of Bahais
who understand certain basic concepts in different ways, and disagree
on certain points. It's not anything superdeep. Not all Bahais (or
members of any religion) will have the exact same understanding of the
"same" religion. That's ok. That's just life.
I'm not interested in arguing with you the question of what is the
"correct" understanding of the role of the UHJ. That's not my main
point. What I'm saying is that just because Farihin may say things in
a certain way, doesn't mean that they weren't an actual card-carrying
Bahai.
I think both Yassir and myself have pointed out things were our
understanding of something differs very much from Firouz's
understanding of some Islamic topics. I've disagreed with him on some
of his understandings. That doesn't mean I would accuse him of LYING
when he says that he used to be Muslim.
Peace
Gilberto
Gilberto Simpson
> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:07:22 CST, Gilberto Simpson
> <gilberto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 7/7/05, Firouz <fir...@thai-bahais.org> wrote:
> >> Farihin:
> >> > IMHO the BAhai faith cannot grow bigger because its depth of
> >> > interpretation and legislation has finished at the end of the
> >> > Guardianship. Furthermore, the absence of naratives or traditions on
> >> > the examples of The Master makes it even harder to setup principles and
> >> > regulations. Until today there is no indepth study regarding Bahai
> >> > Ablutions.
> >
> >> Again you're wrong here. There is the institution of the Universal House of
> >> Justice that has been authorized by Baha'u'llah to legislate. I am not sure who told you that legislation is finished?
Gilberto:
> >I've heard from actual Bahais face-to-face that the UHJ doesn't
> >legislate and only interprets the existing laws. I'm not arguing about
> >whether that is correct or incorrect, but it is something that at
> >least a few Bahais say and apparently believe.
WilliamL
> My understanding is ....
Gilberto:
The larger point I'm trying to get across is that just because a
person's understanding of Bahai laws might disagree with your
understanding of Bahai laws doesn't make them not Bahai. What I'm
suggesting is that just because you disagree with Farihin doesn't mean
that they were never Bahai.
Peace
Gilberto
Gilberto Simpson
Why automatically accuse Farihin of lying? In every religion there are
people with different levels of knowledge and understanding. Besides,
what specific thing did they say which was incorrect?
I don't mean a general statement that they don't know the laws about
X, I mean, quoting from their post, what statement did they make that
was an incorrect description of Bahai laws?
-Gilberto
william pike
>> >The claim that the UHJ is infallible is not a matter of "information".
>> >It is a Bahai dogma (in the dictionary sense). It is something Bahais
>> >believe on faith but I don't see how you can expect non-Bahais to
>> >believe it too. (If they did, they would be Bahais).
>> Actually it is from the Scriptures of Baha'u'llah and written directly
>> by Him.
>
>
>Dear William,
>
>I can't think of any place where Baha'u'llah talks about the
>infallibility of the Universal House of Justice, can you? I think those
>references are all from Abdu'l-Baha.
My source is the tape by Hand of the Cause of God William Sears titled
"The Greatness and Majesty of the Universal House of Justice". I will
give a call to Mr. Anthony Leese or look up the exact wording of His
Holiness Baha'u'llah and source myself and get back to you.
>
>The infallibility of the Universal House of Justice has
>> absolutely no dependence on any other person or persons for its
>> infallibility.
>
>If by that you mean it is not dependent on the presence of a living
>Guardian, I would agree. But only Baha'u'llah and the Manifestations
>have innate infallibility. Abdu'l-Baha states that the infallibility of
>the Universal House of Justice is by virtue of their being under the
>protection of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
I would say that being under the protection of His Holiness The Bab
and His Holiness Baha'u'llah would indicate that they could be
considered to be infallable seperately from 'Abdul Baha and the
Guardian.
My understanding is that 'Abdul Baha was granted infallibility in the
matters of interpretation of the writings of His Holiness Baha'u'llah
by His Holiness Baha'u'llah and that 'Abdul Baha granted similar
infallibility to his Grandson Shoghi Effendi Rabbni in turn, however
the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice was bestowed
separately and directly by His Holiness Baha'u'llah on them
exclusively.
Pax Terra
God said BE!
and Symmetry was fractured!
william pike
<gilberto...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snipped>
>WilliamL
>> My understanding is ....
>
>Gilberto:
>The larger point I'm trying to get across is that just because a
>person's understanding of Bahai laws might disagree with your
>understanding of Bahai laws doesn't make them not Bahai. What I'm
>suggesting is that just because you disagree with Farihin doesn't mean
>that they were never Bahai.
I realize that your background of Hadiths and exposition of the Muslim
religion and the Quran leads to a very flexible understanding of what
is acceptable. If I recall correctly, lying is considered to be
admirable under several circumstances according to Hadith and denial
of being a Muslim is permitted and in some cases considered admirable
as well. Denial of being a Baha'i is not permitted to a Baha'i
period. If a Baha'i denies being a Baha'i, for any reason, they are no
longer considered a Baha'i.
The Baha'i Faith doesn't recognize the authority of Hadith or Hadith
like pronouncements. ALL authority is from His Holiness Baha'u'llah
or 'Abdul Baha or the Guardian or the Supreme Universal House of
Justice, no where else period.
The reason that I, and many other Baha'is, use the phrase "My
Understanding" is that interpretation of the Baha'i Scriptures ended
with the passing of the Guardian and no person has the authority to
say what a passage means, with anything outside of their own
understanding; conversely no individual can tell them what something
means either. The only legitimate authority is the Scriptures and the
rulings of the Supreme Universal House of Justice, no where else
period. To reiterate I can only speak for myself as to what I
understand something to be unless I cite the scripture directly.
BTW I don't "disagree" with Farihin on anything. I do observe that for
a person whose claim is that they have served on Local Spiritual
Assemblies for many years and worked directly under a National
Spiritual Assembly and participated in projects where thousands
declared. Their information on Baha'i Activities are severely lacking
and/or in error. This is confirmed by Firoz who is a Baha'i in the
same area where Farihin claims to be from. Yet Farihin refuses to
identify the place and time where this is purported to have occurred
or provide any verifiable information. BTW Baha'is have always
carried identification at least for the past 50 years or so and
volunteered it without problem. As I said many times before I look to
deeds not words.
The background knowledge/understanding of the Baha'i Faith is severely
lacking. In point of fact I have heard/seen mirrors similar
pronouncements and language, from a number of Muslims that I know have
masqueraded at being Baha'i's. However I have never heard similar
pronouncements from a person who has withdrawn from the Baha'i Faith,
I have known and been friends with a number both before and after
their withdrawal..
Farihin
I'm Chindian, hope you know what it means. My community like other
communities pledged a thousand new declarants by a certain year... this
was in line with a certain ?? Year Plan by UHJ.
I remember going out to teach the Faith with my family and others in
the community until we had a thousand declarants... but now the
community numbers around 20 only. The thousand was a fluke, coz no one
really understood what they were signing. The same for all the
communities in Malaysia. If the numbers are true, we would have
surpassed Iran in Bahai population... unfortunately.......
Please stop this mystery about me and take my word for it. And I know
the Bahai laws well because i study the Aqdas more than any of my
family members... Its you who always put me down, because i see is in
your nature to belittle other people's knowledge... It's just that you
unable to truely understand my question. The answers are most of time
very superficial, when the question runs deep.
I have attended deepenings all my life... i hope this satisfies you.
And another thing, please don't let the fact that a learned Bahai can
see the truth of Islam be a bone in your throat... I know you are very
disturbed by it and thats why you refuse to acknowledge that I'm even a
Bahai... nice but dirty tactic.
sma...@jam.rr.com
> Why automatically accuse Farihin of lying? In every religion there are
> people with different levels of knowledge and understanding. Besides,
> what specific thing did they say which was incorrect?
Dear Gilberto,
There are certain things that come naturally to 'insiders' of any
religious tradition. For instance, anyone born into a Muslim family is
likely to add the traditional blessing after mentioning the name of a
Propet. So anyone who has been a Baha'i will include the apostrophes.
It is not offensive to fail to do so, but it does mark you as an
'outsider.' There are other little hints which mark Farihin as not
somoeone who was a life-long Baha'is. Yes, there are Baha'is who have
converted to Islam. For instance there is a woman known as Rachel or
Maryam who converted. I don't think anyone could read her posts and
doubtg that at one time she was indeed a Baha'i. The same thing isn't
true of Farahin.
warmest, Susan
Firouz
> Why automatically accuse Farihin of lying? In every religion there are
> people with different levels of knowledge and understanding. Besides,
> what specific thing did they say which was incorrect?
Dear Gilberto:
I did not automatically accuse her of lying. I just said I doubt it based on
what I read. There are some basic Baha'i laws that all Baha'is know. I
wonder how someone who claims to be born in a Baha'i family and most
probably have attended Baha'i children classes does not know. The way she
argues is obvious that she has a Muslim born mentality, supporting Yassir on
some arguments that Yassir would like to discuss. Anyway it's very easy to
prove her claim. If she decides to introduce herself, it could be easily
verified by the NSA of Malaysia. Indeed last night I called to a friend of
mine who works at the National Office of Baha'is of Malaysia for over 13
years and asked her if she ever heard such a name and she replied NO.
Has she changed name after becoming Muslim?
> I don't mean a general statement that they don't know the laws about
> X, I mean, quoting from their post, what statement did they make that
> s an incorrect description of Bahai laws?
She is not what she claims to be. This is so obvious for Baha'is, specially
those who are familiar with Islamic way of thinking. I know well.
regards,
Firouz
Matt Menge
>> Well, at least you picked a good religion.
>thank you,
You are welcome.
>>Its not Shi'i Islam, Its Sunnah Wal-Jemaah (SUNNI). Fiqh is a branch of
study about the principles of the religion. Within Fiqh, it goes by
priority, 1st - Quran, 2nd -Hadith (Even within this there is a study
of authencity), 3rd - Ijmak Mujtahid (Something like fatwa and decree
for a certain country or area by its recognised religious head) and 4th
- Qias (something like common sense)
>>Just to contrast it to the Bahai Faith, Islam has clearly five Hukum
(implementations):
a) Obligatory (Orders that must be done)
b) Sunnat ( Orders if done begets bounties and if left is not sin)
c) Haram (Forbidden in the harshes way, if overstepped leads to hell)
d) Makruh (Light restrictions where if observed begets bounty, if
broken does no harm either)
f) HARUS (Should... whether done or not begets to neither bounty nor
hell)
>Has the Bahai faith categorized it laws into such a perspective that
its adherents can understand it depth..?
To be honest no. It is possible that this is lack of development.
However, I am inclined to believe that our World Center is asserting
that this level of organization is at least to some extent illusory.
By this I mean that there is some natural ambiguity and mysteriousness
in religion.
> I have never, ever heard this. Even in Catholic churches people join
> in cengregational prayer, and Catholics are a lot less devout than
> Muslims.
>>There's a difference my friend. Can catholics perform congregational
prayers at home and is it uniformed? If yes, are they systematic?
Catholics say certain prayers in church in a uniform fashion. I hadn't
thought about at home, but I suppose there is some precedent in saying
grace before meals and such. I was mainly thinking about at church
though.
>>Tha main reason why i said so is because of popular belief that Islamic
methods of congregational prayer is outdated and needs to be replaced
by new law of Bahaullah. Because Bahais, especially in my country argue
that Muslim congregational prayers don't allow its Jemaah (follower in
congregation) to pray on their own, everyone simply listens to the Imam
and utter 'amin...amin'. I'm saying that this belief is hogwash because
as Muslims, everyone has to say their own prayers ... contradictory to
popular Bahai belief and arguement.
Personally, I find private prayers to be more effective than prayers
in groups, even one's that are not uniform. Perhaps this is projecting
but I tend to think that private prayer is just a better way to pray
for everyone. No need to speculate about whether people are actually
praying or not.
>> It is an interesting argument. But I have never heard that people
>> don't pray in congregational prayer, in any religion.
>>I have, as a Bahai... and this made Islam look like a stupd mans
religion back then. But when i really really got into it, then i found
that its depth far surpasses the study in the Bahai Faith...
Where do you live, roughly speaking? I have never heard this argument.
> Yes, we could probably learn from Islam in this regard. In my
> ablutions I wash up to my elbows, but I admit I borrowed this from the
> Qur'an.
>>Once you agree to that, then it simply disproves that the Bahai Faith
is a progress from Islam.... since of course Bahais could learn from
Islam.
Well, coming from a western background I simply don't know what is
untranslated. More to the point, the Baha'i Faith is admittedly an
undeveloped religion. There seem to be two options for this, to adopt
the Baha'i Faith as an attachment to one's parent religion (which in my
case would be Roman Catholicism) or to adopt it as an attachment to
Shi'i Islam. Islam seemed to work better.
>> Actually, we do have Hadiths, we just attach less importance to them.
<<The Hadith contains not only the examples of the prophet, but also
what
he has said on the various aspects of life, Do's and dont's,
interpretations of many metaphorical matters from the Quran. Quran
without the Hadiths is like Aqdas without Abdul Baha...
I think this is going off on a tangent here. I thought we were talking
about why Baha'is don't have Hadiths.
>>So if the entire Sunni population has already concurred through the
study of Fiqh and hadith that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the Last
Prophet why can't Bahais understand that?
Well, some Sunni Muslims do become Baha'is so evidently this belief is
not universal. More to the point, it is usually a sign that someone is
investigating another religion if they start talking about their
Prophet not being the last Prophet. Buddhists and Hindus do this to
some extent, but they have extremely strict ideas about what a new
Prophet (Avatar, Buddha) might teach.
>> Don't tell me that during
the time of the prophet, none of the cmpanions or the people in general
would have ask and ascertain this question? and then write it down. If
the muslims of the world at that time knew about the coming of other
prophets surely they would have made a hadiths out of it.
Well, I can tell you that Baha'is definitely believe a new
Manifestation will follow Baha'u'llah yet so far there seems to be very
little inquiry as to what such a Manifestation will be like. In fact I
just tried to start a thread on it and it got blown out of the water.
>>7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic
or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the
Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity
follow the part there of that is allegorical, seeking discord, and
searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings
except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We
believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord;" and none will
grasp the Message except men of understanding.
>> (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)
>>which part of : -'But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the
part there of that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for
its hidden meanings'- don't bahais get?
Baha'is usually understand this as allegorical interpretation to the
exclusion of literal. Baha'u'llah wrote a Tablet on the Surah of the
Sun that specifically addresses the issue of commentary.
Also, of course, Baha'u'llah Himself would be well grounded in
knowledge as He is a Manifestation of God.
>>Its clear that Islam is one religion, a religion. But the Bahais always
want to 'allegorical this and allegorical that' until the Bahai faith
is an allegorical religion... since islam is one religion now, why do
Bahais want to develop another religion by another name, seeking
discord using the allegorical and trying to search its hidden meanings?
I know the answer, Bahaullah was sent by God, so he has the
authority...
Yes, but the Baha'i Faith is certainly not entirely allegorical. It is
prophecies that are allegorical. They always have been. That's the
nature of prophecy.
>>In the hadith, there are many examples shown by the Prophet (PBUH) on
how prayer is done.... so this becomes authorative and implemented. I'm
talking about detailed instructions on how to supplicate Takbiratul
Ihram, How to ruku (bend), how to prostate... what constitutes a
rakaat.... many many things. It has set for its followers a way of life
based on the prophets life.
Well, if this is really true it would seem incredibly redundant for
Baha'u'llah to discuss these subjects all over again, wouldn't it?
>> If they are sooo
infallible why cant they interpret? Have you thought about that?
I guess not, but it hardly seems baffling. The members of the House of
Justice are not guaranteed to be saints. They aren't like the
Guardians or the Imams. So they have to have very careful limitations
set on their divine guidance.
>>Next question is who are the bahai scholars? They are not given any
recognition like how an Imam is given... so how to know? Everyone who
just reads more is a scholar, right? In islam, its different, the man
learned enough to lead prayers and becomes the point of answers for his
community,in other words, a leader, an Imam ... he is a scholar.
Actually Baha'i scholars are subject to a review process by the Baha'i
administration whenever they publish something. In fact it is this
very process that a lot of Baha'i scholars resent. The House of
Justice does indeed seem to think these scholars are working for it.
>>Good, but you've just procured another point of discussion. When u
first became a Bahai or any new Bahai convert in general, there was
obviously no basic guidance given to them. Unlike in Islam, if you
convert to Islam, you must go for fundamental classes to strengthen
your faith... and here they teach about the Pillars of Islam, The
Pillars of Faith... all the basics enough for you start living the
living the life.
Actually Obligatory Prayer is discussed in Ruhi Book 1. This is given
pretty regularly to new believers nowadays.
Best Regards,
Matt
Gilberto Simpson
oversimplifying what it might mean to say that the gates are "closed".
I remember earlier showing you a list of the various sources and
criteria a sunni scholar would theoretically use in order to derrive
rulings and some of the factors are things which are specific to a
particular situation. So in the case of new situations, a scholar
would still be able to come up with "new" rulings by applying certain
principles with the right understanding.
So for example, if a chemist invents a new designer drug. Or if
biomedical technology allows for certain novel procedures to be done,
we don't just say "oh the gates are closed, Islam has nothing to say
about that". Instead, the principles of the religion can still be
applied to the novel circumstances.
On 7/8/05, sma...@jam.rr.com <sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote:
> > Babu-l-Ijtihaad is always open,I dont know where you got that idea!
> > "who ever innovate a good innovation will get it's reward and the
> > reward
> > of the People who follow it" Prophet said about Bid3a Hassanah.
> > You can not invent a Bid3a Hassanah without Bab al Ijtihad wide open.
>
> Yassir,
>
> I'm not familiar with that hadith. Is it sahih? Most Muslims I know
> equat bidaa with heresy. And the only Sunni school I know of which
> regards the bab-i ijtihad open is the Hanbali school to which the
> Wahhabis and other Islamist extremist belong.
Could you give a source for the claim that the Hanbalis say the gate
is "open" and the other schools say the gate is "closed"? I'm not sure
what you mean by it. To be a "Hanbali" would mean to follow the
principles and methodology of established by the founder right? Just
as to be a Hanafi or Maliki would imply generally following the
principles and methodologies of the founders of those schools. I think
that would imply a certain amount of structure but also a certain
amount of flexibility.
Peace
Gilberto
Gilberto Simpson
> > people with different levels of knowledge and understanding. Besides,
> > what specific thing did they say which was incorrect?
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> There are certain things that come naturally to 'insiders' of any
> religious tradition. For instance, anyone born into a Muslim family is
> likely to add the traditional blessing after mentioning the name of a
> Propet.
I think I understand what you are talking about. But I would think
that *within* every religious community there is also a variation in
the amount of observance. And especially has converted from religion A
to religion B, I wouldn't expect them to act like a typical member of
religion A.
I know a Bahai who fornicates from time to time and does
hallucinogens. That doesn't mean he was never Bahai.
> Yes, there are Baha'is who have
> converted to Islam. For instance there is a woman known as Rachel or
> Maryam who converted. I don't think anyone could read her posts and
> doubtg that at one time she was indeed a Baha'i.
Yes, she actually has a really nice blog:
http://www.maryams.net/dervish/
> The same thing isn't
> true of Farahin.
It doesn't seem like a logical response to me.
Peace
Gilberto
Firouz
> "correct" understanding of the role of the UHJ. That's not my main
> point. What I'm saying is that just because Farihin may say things in
> a certain way, doesn't mean that they weren't an actual card-carrying
> Bahai.
Dear Gilberto:
You may be correct that some Baha'is do not understand the role of UHJ.
Anyway that understanding is not a major issue or in other words that's not
the pillar of the religions. As many Muslims may not understand many other
issues. But I am sure a Muslim and at the same time a Baha'i should
understand about the pillars of their religions which are the same in both
religions which are prayers and fasting. Would you say that some Muslims do
not know about their obligatory prayers, specially a Muslim who is born is a
Muslim family and has been active.
regards,
Firouz
Gilberto Simpson
> > Why automatically accuse Farihin of lying? In every religion there are
> > people with different levels of knowledge and understanding. Besides,
> > what specific thing did they say which was incorrect?
>
> Dear Gilberto:
> I did not automatically accuse her of lying.
There is not any significant difference between the obvious implicit
attitudes in the Bahai responses and explicitly accusing her of
lying.
> I just said I doubt it based on
> what I read. There are some basic Baha'i laws that all Baha'is know.
Which specifically is the law which you are claiming Farihin doesn't know?
> I wonder how someone who claims to be born in a Baha'i family and most
> probably have attended Baha'i children classes does not know.
I know of baptized Catholics who don't know all sorts of things about
the Catholic religion. I know an American girl brought up in a Muslim
household who wasn't clear on what the Islamic laws on drinking and
homosexuality were. I don't see why Bahais would be any different.
The way she
> argues is obvious that she has a Muslim born mentality
I would expect a Muslim mentality in someone who is Muslim.
Peace
Gilberto
Firouz
>> Are you Chinese, Indian, or Malay?
Farihin:
> I'm Chindian, hope you know what it means. My community like other
> communities pledged a thousand new declarants by a certain year... this
> was in line with a certain ?? Year Plan by UHJ.
I have a few friends in Malaysia who are Chindians, one parent is Chinese
and the other Indian. Anyway I did not hear such a plan from the UHJ. Have
you changed your name after marriage? Do you know Soheil? He is also a
Chindian in KL?
> I remember going out to teach the Faith with my family and others in
> the community until we had a thousand declarants... but now the
> community numbers around 20 only. The thousand was a fluke, coz no one
> really understood what they were signing. The same for all the
> communities in Malaysia. If the numbers are true, we would have
> surpassed Iran in Bahai population... unfortunately.......
Maybe part of your life, you were a Baha'i or had some Baha'i friends.
> Please stop this mystery about me and take my word for it. And I know
> the Bahai laws well because i study the Aqdas more than any of my
> family members... Its you who always put me down, because i see is in
> your nature to belittle other people's knowledge... It's just that you
> unable to truely understand my question. The answers are most of time
> very superficial, when the question runs deep.
In your first email, you question the way Baha'is do their obligatory
prayers and question if Baha'is do ablution. Those questions showed your
ignorance about Kitab-i-Aqdas and its laws about obligatory prayers and
fasting. Even if you had never read it, for someone who claims to be born in
a Baha'i family and being a member of LSA, not knowing about the basics of
obligatory prayers and fasting is very odd. Please go and read your first
email that you sent to SRB.
> I have attended deepenings all my life... i hope this satisfies you.
> And another thing, please don't let the fact that a learned Bahai can
> see the truth of Islam be a bone in your throat... I know you are very
> disturbed by it and thats why you refuse to acknowledge that I'm even a
> Bahai... nice but dirty tactic.
I am just disturbed by the fact that some people lie just to prove their
points. A deepened Baha'i knows the ABCs of obligatory prayers and fasting.
These are the pillars of the religion. You claim that you attended many
deepening classes. Did they not teach you about the function of UHJ that
they do legislation. Your various emails on this forum contradicts with each
other. Susan, Suzanne, William, and a couple of other friends mentioned a
few points and you never replied to those points when raised.
God bless,
Firouz
kha...@sbcglobal.net
I'm not familiar with that hadith. Is it sahih?
Dear Susan.
You can check this American Muslim Scholar
who explaine the whole shebang at.
http://www.geocities.com/javedyakub/bida.htm
Susan.
...forbid women to drive car
Yassir.
This is something Saudis do ,My sister in Casablanca
drives,and She does her 5 prayers and all the Islamic
practices.
Susan.
.. justify terrorist attacks on
civilians.
Yassir.
These ones who justify attacks on civilian
are nameless ones who are not representing
any Muslim country,
Killing innocent Ppl is not accepted by any
good hearted person.
Islam has nothing to do with those ones,
Muslims are not perfect but Islam is,
The linking of what you said negativly
about bad Muslims is not the result
of Islam,even though that is the intention
of many ones who try to bring Islam down.
Wa Salaam.
Yassir.
Farihin
handle the truth, resort to name calling, suspicion and allegations.
Firstly, I'm male not female.
Firouz wrote:
>> I did not automatically accuse her of lying. I just said I doubt it based on
> what I read. There are some basic Baha'i laws that all Baha'is know. I
> wonder how someone who claims to be born in a Baha'i family and most
> probably have attended Baha'i children classes does not know. The way she
> argues is obvious that she has a Muslim born mentality, supporting Yassir on
> some arguments that Yassir would like to discuss. Anyway it's very easy to
> prove her claim. If she decides to introduce herself, it could be easily
> verified by the NSA of Malaysia. Indeed last night I called to a friend of
> mine who works at the National Office of Baha'is of Malaysia for over 13
> years and asked her if she ever heard such a name and she replied NO.
> Has she changed name after becoming Muslim?
HE, not she, has of course changed his name... its a shame u realize
this only now ;) What's with this intense interest to know where i come
from and stuff. Is it obligatory that we have to prove our previous
Bahai membership... Since you got frens in NSA of Malaysia, which is
only about 10 kilometres from my house, ask them do they know Sho Ghi
from Batu Caves/Selayang. And thats me... for all i know, the Bahais
will definitely come after my parents and pressure them instead. I
wished for secrecy only for their sake. But never mind, I leave this
affair in Allah's hands.
And try not to be so shallow next time, please.
> > I don't mean a general statement that they don't know the laws about
> > X, I mean, quoting from their post, what statement did they make that
> > s an incorrect description of Bahai laws?
There isn't a thing that you said that i didn't know already! When we
talked about ablutions, i know there are ablutions in the Bahai faith,
but we discussing its depth, not its existence... since u've failed to
understand that i don't see you'll understand even this explaination of
it... lol ;)
> She is not what she claims to be. This is so obvious for Baha'is, specially
> those who are familiar with Islamic way of thinking. I know well.
For a creature of Allah to claim to know this definitely commits
shirik, You know more than Allah does? Good for you, then i think you
are not actually a Bahai, but trying to be but talking about basic laws
and stuff that people already.
This discussion is obviously at a higher level than you can grasp. Try
to keep up, or dont.
Firouz
> this only now ;) What's with this intense interest to know where i come
> from and stuff. Is it obligatory that we have to prove our previous
> Bahai membership... Since you got frens in NSA of Malaysia, which is
> only about 10 kilometres from my house, ask them do they know Sho Ghi
> from Batu Caves/Selayang. And thats me... for all i know, the Bahais
> will definitely come after my parents and pressure them instead. I
> wished for secrecy only for their sake. But never mind, I leave this
> affair in Allah's hands.
After reading this post, I called my friend who works in National Office of
Malaysian NSA. She confirmed that she knows Sho Ghi and his family from Batu
Caves. They are all Baha'is and they are all still Baha'i. No one from this
family ever met the NSA to say that he is leaving the Faith. Now it seems
you're impersonating yourself to be Sho Ghi.
> There isn't a thing that you said that i didn't know already! When we
> talked about ablutions, i know there are ablutions in the Bahai faith,
> but we discussing its depth, not its existence... since u've failed to
> understand that i don't see you'll understand even this explaination of
> it... lol ;)
Please re-read your first email again.
God bless,
Firouz
william pike
Hey, I am very happy that you are happy being a Muslim. As the Nike
corporation says,"Just do it!"
Let's see if you can walk the walk of His Holiness Muhammad or if
you just talk the talk.
BTW Seeing how much background you claim about the Baha'i Faith since
you claim to have served many years on Local Spiritual Assemblies and
worked with the National Spiritual Assembly; you should be aware that
NO Baha'i would bother your family regarding your de-conversion to the
Muslim religion. You would also already know that the only thing that
you needed to do was to contact the Local Spiritual Assembly, which
you claim to be a part of, and request disenrollment, as has been
previously posted several times. Nobody will bother you or your
family unless YOU decide to make an issue of it.
As has been said, there are just to many procedures and facts that you
would know, if your claims are true, that you demonstrate not
knowing.
Pax Terra
By their fruits you shall know them.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance"
Galatians 5
william pike
<kha...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
<snipped>
>Susan.
>.. justify terrorist attacks on
>civilians.
>
>Yassir.
>These ones who justify attacks on civilian
>are nameless ones who are not representing
>any Muslim country,
Ok, they are Muslims without a country. However they claim to be
Muslims and are not considered to be "outside the fold" by other
Muslims. They are also supported by "Good Muslims" financially and
have fairly wide spread support within the general Muslim community.
As evidenced from my own interactions with local Muslim groups and
world news organizations.
>Killing innocent Ppl is not accepted by any
>good hearted person.
>Islam has nothing to do with those ones,
Looks to me like maybe Islam has nothing to do with them but Muslims
do.
>Muslims are not perfect but Islam is,
>The linking of what you said negativly
>about bad Muslims is not the result
>of Islam,even though that is the intention
>of many ones who try to bring Islam down.
IMHO the "Bad Muslims" are doing a very good job of bringing the
Muslim religion down, as far as the non-Muslim world goes. Perhaps a
Jihad of "Good Muslims" against those who are currently destroying the
name and image of Islam is warranted? Looks to me like a direct
attack on Islam by the "Bad Muslims".
kha...@sbcglobal.net
But I am sure a Muslim and at the same time a Baha'i should
understand about the pillars of their religions which are the same in
both
religions which are prayers and fasting.
Yassir.
That is not true,the pillars of Islam are 5 not two,
And the fast and the prayers applications are totaly different.
Wa Salaam.
Yassir.
Firouz
>> I wonder how someone who claims to be born in a Baha'i family and most
>> probably have attended Baha'i children classes does not know.
Gilberto:
> I know of baptized Catholics who don't know all sorts of things about
> the Catholic religion. I know an American girl brought up in a Muslim
> household who wasn't clear on what the Islamic laws on drinking and
> homosexuality were. I don't see why Bahais would be any different.
Some laws are basic laws, everyone knows. I know many Muslims who do not do
their obligatory prayers but they know that Muslims should do their
obligatory prayers. Knowing and doing is different. Here there is someone
who claims to be born in a Baha'i family, who claims that has read
Kitab-i-Aqdas (Book of Laws), claim that has attended many deepenings but
still does not know some basic Baha'i laws. What would you think if someone
told you that he had been born in a Muslim family, had attended Islamic
religious classes (similar to Baha'i children classes), had read Quran, had
attended Muslim community function, etc. but he still does not know about
how that he has to do ablution before praying? Or many other basic things.
I guess you just want to support your Muslim friend here no matter what
proof has shown to you. Be fair.
regards,
Firouz
Farihin
william pike wrote:
> Hey, I am very happy that you are happy being a Muslim. As the Nike
> corporation says,"Just do it!"
> Let's see if you can walk the walk of His Holiness Muhammad or if
> you just talk the talk.
At least got the hadith to help on that journey, has there been any
hadiths on how Abdul Baha does things... how are you going to follow
the exampler? Lets see now whether you can walk the WALK and talk the
TALK ;)
Talk is cheap...
> BTW Seeing how much background you claim about the Baha'i Faith since
> you claim to have served many years on Local Spiritual Assemblies and
> worked with the National Spiritual Assembly; you should be aware that
> NO Baha'i would bother your family regarding your de-conversion to the
> Muslim religion. You would also already know that the only thing that
> you needed to do was to contact the Local Spiritual Assembly, which
> you claim to be a part of, and request disenrollment, as has been
> previously posted several times. Nobody will bother you or your
> family unless YOU decide to make an issue of it.
This trivial things i have done my friend.... u dont get it and always
pick on the minial things and often disregard the big picture. The
higher people have harrased my family members and scolded them for
allowing me to ebrace Islam.... come on! This is he truth
> As has been said, there are just to many procedures and facts that you
> would know, if your claims are true, that you demonstrate not
> knowing.
WHo ever demonstrated not knowing? you didn't ask and then made ur own
assumption? ohhhhhh, i see! you were trying explain something
allegorical in my posting, isn't it?? ;)
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Both the author and the adressee, should know they are approaching the out of bounce boundry. Please, stick to the tenants of the Baha'i Faith and leave the personal stuff for privated emails.[Mod]
sma...@jam.rr.com
Farihin wrote:
> Yeah... this is a very good example of being a Bahai... when they cant
> handle the truth, resort to name calling, suspicion and allegations.
> Firstly, I'm male not female.
So you originally gave up your religion in order to marry a Muslim
woman?
Firouz
> That is not true,the pillars of Islam are 5 not two,
> And the fast and the prayers applications are totaly different.
Dear Yassir,
Yes, you're right. I know there are 5 pillars of Islam. But I am sure you
well know that the main 2 pillars are prayer and fasting, very similar to
Baha'i religion. Some verses of Holy Quran also testify to this:
[7:170] And (as for) those who hold fast by the Book and keep up prayer,
surely We do not waste the reward of the right doers.
Has the other pillars been emphasized so much as prayer in Holy Quran?
regards,
Firouz
sma...@jam.rr.com
kha...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Susan wrote.
> I'm not familiar with that hadith. Is it sahih?
>
> Dear Susan.
> You can check this American Muslim Scholar
> who explaine the whole shebang at.
> http://www.geocities.com/javedyakub/bida.htm
I don't want to read the entire article. I just want some evidence that
this hadith is sahih. So please provide the isnad or the source.
>
> Yassir.
> This is something Saudis do ,My sister in Casablanca
> drives,and She does her 5 prayers and all the Islamic
> practices.
Saudis are the only government that follows the Hanbali school, but
they have used their money to spread their ideology elsewhere.
>
> Susan.
> .. justify terrorist attacks on
> civilians.
>
> Yassir.
> These ones who justify attacks on civilian
> are nameless ones who are not representing
> any Muslim country,
Oh, they have names. But granted the Saudis, once in power, did not
support this kind of thing. But Wahhabi theology makes this kind of
thing possible.
sma...@jam.rr.com
> household who wasn't clear on what the Islamic laws on drinking and
> homosexuality were. I don't see why Bahais would be any different.
Dear Gilberto,
And if such a Muslim subsequently converted to another religion and
tried to make comparisons, would you believe she knew what she was
talking about?
warmest, Susan
sma...@jam.rr.com
> I know a Bahai who fornicates from time to time and does
> hallucinogens. That doesn't mean he was never Bahai.
Dear Gilberto,
That's a very different thing. I'm talking about habits of speech not
ones faithfulness to Baha'i law.
warmest, Susan
Gilberto Simpson
I'm not saying Farihin is some kind of expert in Bahai laws. I'm just
addressing the question of integrity and honesty. What was the mistake
that you are claiming Farihin made? And if it was a mistake, was it so
big that it proves he was never a Bahai?
Peace
Gilberto
Piedmont
I am sincerely happy for you, you have found love in your life! You have
married and because of your great love for your wife, you have accepted
Islam. This is a wonderful thing that you have done to show your deep love
for your wife.
If you show as much love for any and all other humans throughout your life
(regardless of their religious beliefs or lack of beliefs) than I think you
are on the path to God. And now that you are a follower of Islam, you want
to share your vision of God's love for all, and that is good too.
IMHO: As long as we all agree that all that matters is that God loves all of
us, that we should love God, and that we should all love one another here on
this Earth. We will all be the better for it.
Warmest Regards,
Michael Willsey (new Baha'i)
"Farihin" <nawi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120641910.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Dear friends,
>
> Assalamualaikum,
>
> I personally would like to thank Yassir for steadfastly posting
> arguements on this newsgroup. I think what yassir is trying to
> emphasize is right.
>
> I was a Bahai formerly and now I have embraced Islam. Of course
> initially i was pushed to embrace Islam due to marriage, but after some
> time practising it i find that it is more fulfilling and has got more
> system in it than the Bahai Faith.
>
> Here are some of my observation on the various aspects:
>
> 1. Islam
> a) Has an indepth study called Fiqh. In it every aspect of a Muslims
> day to day living has recommendation and obligations. This makes Islam
> more systematic based on the Noble Quran, The Hadiths and jurisprudence
> of the school of thought, in my case Imam Shafiee.
>
> b) Very very strong emphasis on Five times prayers are obligatory. If
> missed there are ways to repay. Can be said by anyone under any
> circumstances (there are provisions for) except for the insane. It is a
> sacred pillar that is heavily emphasized. Through the daily Fardhu
> Solat, a muslim can be judged by others, gives a clear evidence of his
> spirituality to others. And the methods are uniformed according to
> countries and schools of thought based on the examples of the prophet.
>
> c) Congregational (Jemaah) Prayers, a way of unity. Like Nineteen Day
> Feast (NDF), the Jemaah prayers really strengthens the family bond, the
> family being the fundamental unit in society. Because there is an Imam,
> and unlike popular beliefs by Bahais that the in congregational prayers
> the followers do not pray, everyone in the congregational prayers prays
> after the Imam has prayed. So why abrogate it? its effective in my
> opinion.
>
> d) Great emphasis is given to ablutions. When ablution is taken,
> muslims understand that it is symbolic but even so, place great care
> and importance to it application and regulations. A muslim must say his
> prayer with his ablutions intact and not invalidated. Things that would
> invalidate his ablutions and thus his prayer are like coming in contact
> with a woman whom he can marry, touching things that are illegal
> (haram), farting (gas)... things that do not invalidate the ablutions
> and prayers are like food stains, eating, drinking water and beverages
> which are halal.... and so on. So this really disciplines a fellow
> muslim to respect his prayer and sets a good example for
>
> 2. Bahai
> a) Does not have Hadiths, no actual authorized interpreted of the
> scriptures, no examples of how it is actually supposed to be done. No
> study of Fiqh and no actual jurisprudence. No uniformed way of praying,
> but then again why do Bahai need it, they are forbidden from Jemaah
> (congregational) prayers. For the most part of living as a Bahai, many
> things are always up to the individual and this sometimes makes me
> wonder; are we the creation or are we God? Its for Allah to teach us
> and set rules for us and we as creations to follow as best we can or
> repay as best we can, not to leave everything up to us. Always when
> Bahais couldn't pray or miss something due to something else, its
> Bahais always say "its ok, because its between us and God" and they
> just leave it as if it was repaid and take no guilt in missing it. If
> that is always the case with Bahais then how is the Bahai Faith to
> become a world method of governance. Also the Bahai Faith doesn't have
> a way to legislate laws without a Guardian (W&T Abdul Baha) as how
> Islam does.
>
> b) Virtually no emphasis is given to the obligatory prayer and
> virtually no way of knowing how pious and spiritual a person is because
> his daily worship and praise, cannot be seen by others. No uniformity
> and opened to interpretations. I understand how the Bahai obligatory
> prayers are done but is there any do's and don'ts, like how high, how
> low, how wide.....
>
> time does not permit, That's all for now, will post more Insha Allah...
>
> Farihin Abdullah
>
Gilberto Simpson
> Firouz:
> >> I wonder how someone who claims to be born in a Baha'i family and most
> >> probably have attended Baha'i children classes does not know.
>
> Gilberto:
> > I know of baptized Catholics who don't know all sorts of things about
> > the Catholic religion. I know an American girl brought up in a Muslim
> > household who wasn't clear on what the Islamic laws on drinking and
> > homosexuality were. I don't see why Bahais would be any different.
>
> Some laws are basic laws, everyone knows. I know many Muslims who do not do
> their obligatory prayers but they know that Muslims should do their
> obligatory prayers. Knowing and doing is different. Here there is someone
> who claims to be born in a Baha'i family, who claims that has read
> Kitab-i-Aqdas (Book of Laws), claim that has attended many deepenings but
> still does not know some basic Baha'i laws.
This is something I'm still honestly not clear on. WHAT specifically
is it that you are claiming he doesn't know. And WHAT did they say
specifically say that lets you know he doesn't know it?
-Gilberto
Gilberto Simpson
> > Yassir.
> > That is not true,the pillars of Islam are 5 not two,
> > And the fast and the prayers applications are totaly different.
>
> Dear Yassir,
> Yes, you're right. I know there are 5 pillars of Islam. But I am sure you
> well know that the main 2 pillars are prayer and fasting, very similar to
> Baha'i religion. Some verses of Holy Quran also testify to this:
>
I think this is actually a really good example of the kind of
reasoning you are using against Farihin. Firouz said something which
sounded like he was saying there were two pillars of Islam. (Or at
least it could give that impression). Should we say, oh he made a huge
mistake and he was probably lying when he said he used to be Muslim?
Or should we just say he mispoke, said something ambiguous, and give
him the benefit of the doubt?
Pecae
Gilberto
> [7:170] And (as for) those who hold fast by the Book and keep up prayer,
> surely We do not waste the reward of the right doers.
>
> Has the other pillars been emphasized so much as prayer in Holy Quran?
>
> regards,
> Firouz
>
>
>
--
"pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush"
Firouz
> This is something I'm still honestly not clear on. WHAT specifically
> is it that you are claiming he doesn't know. And WHAT did they say
> specifically say that lets you know he doesn't know it?
Dear Gilberto,
Please read the first email that Farihin posted on this topic and my first
reply to her. I am sure you can find it on archives of SRB. He was trying to
compare Baha'i with Islam, so please read the section with the heading
Baha'i. What he has written about Baha'i shows the lack of knowledge of the
author about the Faith. And that's why Susan, Suzanne, a few others, and I
got very suspicious on his claim that he has been a former Baha'i. I guess
your information about the Baha'i Faith is more than the author.
regards,
Firouz
william pike
<gilberto...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snipped>
>This is something I'm still honestly not clear on. WHAT specifically
>is it that you are claiming he doesn't know. And WHAT did they say
>specifically say that lets you know he doesn't know it?
He claimed to have served on Local Spiritual Assemblies and worked
with the National Assembly for many years, then he claimed to not know
the procedure for withdrawal from the Baha'i Faith so he didn't
withdraw. Later he claimed that he actually knew the procedure but
didn't follow that procedure because he feared harassment by the
Baha'is of himself and his family. Then he claimed that he did
actually formally withdraw and never brings up the "harassment".
This story and other stories that he relates keep changing. There is
an old saying that successful lying requires a good memory to keep
track of what you said, while telling the truth requires very little
memory as what you said is always consistent.
The facts in the matter is that anyone can withdraw from the Baha'i
Faith at any time, all that is required is a identifying letter that
the individual renounces their belief in His Holiness Baha'u'llah.
They are contacted to verify their wishes and if they verify, they are
removed from the rolls no questions asked.
They are not declared "apostate" nor are they declared dead to the
communities nor are they condemned to death. In point of fact, in the
United States, the fact of withdrawal usually isn't communicated to
the community members unless the person involved tells them.
Add to that the Hadiths, where dissimilation is considered admirable
to "confound the enemies" and engaging in "lip denial" is supported.
BTW "lip denial" is forbidden in the Baha'i Faith along with Jihad.
Pax Terra
Ye shall know them by their fruits: Matt. 7:16
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance": Gal. 5
kha...@sbcglobal.net
I don't want to read the entire article. I just want some evidence that
this hadith is sahih. So please provide the isnad or the source.
Yassir.
He who introduced some good practice in Islam which was followed
after him (by people) he would be assured of reward like one who
followed it, without their rewards being diminished in any respect."
Sahih Muslim, Book 034, Number 6466
Susan.
Saudis are the only government that follows the Hanbali school, but
they have used their money to spread their ideology elsewhere.
Yassir.
their ideologie has nothing to do with the Hanbali school.
wahabis dont follow ibn Hanbal school.Prophet
warnd us about the Ppl of Najd.And He cursed them
saying 2 hornes of Shaytan coming from their place,
and that they dont understand the Qur'an,,,etc.
Susan.
Oh, they have names. But granted the Saudis, once in power, did not
support this kind of thing. But Wahhabi theology makes this kind of
thing possible.
Yassir.
Yes,like the bombes that falls on Iraki civilians
they have no names ,and the ppl that perish are
called "callatral dammage" or a freindly fire.
Changing words makes this kind of things more
digestble than saying terorist attaq or Killing of civilians,,,
even if the count of civilian dying in Irak is very high..
Ppl feel more sorry for 50 civilian than 1000's civilians!
We should feel sorry for all sides, and ALL loss of innocent lives.
Innocent people die evryday in countries such as Irak, Sudan, Chehnya,
etc.
But when it hits the west, even if it is a small amount,
the press jump on it more than the other countries.
Wa Salaam
Yassir
kha...@sbcglobal.net
But I am sure you
well know that the main 2 pillars are prayer and fasting,
Yassir.
That is not true,if one of the Pillars is missing,the whole thing
falls.
If you do the prayers (salat) but you dont believe
in the Shahada (first pillar) then your salat is like
gymnastic.
If you do the Salat during the Fast of Ramadan and you dont
believe in Fasting ,then your Salat is gymnastic.
The verse [7:170] that you quote without cheking the context,
is not speaking about pillars at all.
The verse is directed at bany Israil who inherited the Book(torah)
and clutch at the fleeting good of this lower world and say '
WE SHALL BE FORGIVEN" [7:169].
FIROUZ.
Has the other pillars been emphasized so much as prayer in Holy Quran?
Yassir.
First everything that you do for God's pleasure is a prayer.
God in the Qur'an ordered Muslims to obey the Prophet.
The Qur'an say for example to go a make [Tawaf] circombulate
around His house,but it does not say how many rounds to do .
We do 7 rounds because the Prophet orderd to do 7.
The meaning of {And obey the Prophet} is therefore
"Know that whatever the Prophet commands or forbids
you to do, it is I Who commands and forbids you to do"
as explicited in the verse {And whatsoever the Messenger
gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids, abstain from it} (59:7).
Without such order, the Prophet's command would not have been binding
upon us.
Wa Salaam.
Yassir.
Farihin
sma...@jam.rr.com wrote:
> I'm still interested to hear about this 'project of a thousand' you
> were involved in. Where and when was this? And what Assembly were you
> serving on.
This is in one of the post in the newsgroup.
You mentioned you met with the NSA before you withdrew, but
> earlier you admitted that you initially withdrew because of martial
> pressures. I'm curious to hear which NSA that was.
Malaysia
> It is hard for me to
> imagine a firm believer leaving their religion just to please their
> spouse. Isn't that shirk, making your spouse a partner with God?
Shirik is espousing something or someone to the station of God IMHO. My
wife is human. And embracing Islam is actually a requirement of law
here,,,
william pike
wrote:
<snipped>
>At least got the hadith to help on that journey, has there been any
>hadiths on how Abdul Baha does things...
Actually, NO. There are the many books and expositions that 'Abdul
Baha himself wrote, as you should be aware of.
You should also be aware that the Baha'i Faith has no equivalent of
the Hadiths and no need for them. The Baha'i Faith has the actual
written scriptures signed and sealed by His Holiness Baha'u'llah,
'Abdul Baha, the Guardian and the Supreme Universal House of Justice.
The Baha'i Faith has no need for the recollections and surmises of
others.
>how are you going to follow
>the exampler? Lets see now whether you can walk the WALK and talk the
>TALK ;)
>Talk is cheap...
Exactly!
and dissimulation is cheaper and traditional.
I am quite glad that you find peace and enjoyment in your adopted
religion and new family. I would suggest as a newlywed and new
believer in the Muslim religion that you have major work ahead in the
study of the Muslim catechism, and commend you to your studies.
Pax Terra
Ye shall know them by their fruits: Matt. 7:16
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance": Gal. 5
Gilberto Simpson
> On 10 Jul 2005 13:40:01 GMT, Gilberto Simpson
> <gilberto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
> >This is something I'm still honestly not clear on. WHAT specifically
> >is it that you are claiming he doesn't know. And WHAT did they say
> >specifically say that lets you know he doesn't know it?
>
> He claimed to have served on Local Spiritual Assemblies and worked
> with the National Assembly for many years,
Ok, that hasn't been disproven.
then he claimed to not know
> the procedure for withdrawal from the Baha'i Faith so he didn't
> withdraw.
I honestly don't remember seeing him claim that. Can you point to the
specific post? Your claim also seems weird because he obviously isn't
Bahai anymore.
> The facts in the matter is that anyone can withdraw from the Baha'i
> Faith at any time, all that is required is a identifying letter that
> the individual renounces their belief in His Holiness Baha'u'llah.
I would say that it doesn't make sense for a non-Bahai to do that. If
the Bahai organization wants to stuff their membership rolls with
people who no longer believe I think that's the Bahai faith's
responsibility to correct the problem. It's not going to be a high
priority to formally disenroll.
Peace
Gilberto
Farihin
Thanks. I'm just here to prove a point. As a Bahai once, I admit that
the Bahai faith lacks a lot compared to Islam...then i find out that
Islam is more perfect that i thought it to be...
There's two reasons for postings if it had made anyone frustated:
1. To show the inferiority of the Bahai Faith,
2. To show that Islam is a better way of life....
3. I would recommend that Bahai convert to Islam, or if not at least
improve on the aspects mentioned in my postings, if its depths were
understood properly...
but since non of normal Bahais can do this, then urge the UHJ or
something. there must be some progress.
Farihin
Maybe he just like to belittle the other three pillars or maybe he just
doesn't know how to differentiate between pillars of Islam and Pillars
of faith... he is busted this time... lol ;)
allegorical perhaps.... :-)
Firouz Wrote:
>[7:170] And (as for) those who hold fast by the Book and keep up prayer,
>surely We do not waste the reward of the right doers.
>Has the other pillars been emphasized so much as prayer in Holy Quran?
That verse clearly indicates how constant prayer should be, not how it
is
elevated higher than other pillars. The Bahais always have a distorted
view of the Quran according to their trained understanding from the
Kitab'i'Iqan...
-reposted with corrections, mods-
william pike
wrote:
>Shirik is espousing something or someone to the station of God IMHO. My
>wife is human. And embracing Islam is actually a requirement of law
>here,,,
You seem to have a little problem. If, as you claim,
[And embracing Islam is actually a requirement of law here,,,]
Then how can you claim to have been a Baha'i serving on Local
Spiritual Assemblies? One of the fundamental laws of the Baha'i Faith
is "Obedience to Government, even when the laws conflict with the
Baha'i Laws; up to renouncing of His Holiness Baha'u'llah.
If in-fact it was against the Governmental laws to be a Baha'i there
would be no National Spiritual Assembly for you to work with and there
would be no Local Spiritual Assemblies to be a member of. That is the
situation that exists in other countries where the Baha'i Faith is
outlawed by the governments.
You were either disobeying the laws of the country you reside in,
which is against Baha'i Law or you are lying in your claim of
membership in the Muslim religion being a requirement.
I suspect that it was more a requirement of your Muslim Bride. Young
women have always led men around since the demise of the caveman.
Firouz
> Thank you, Gilberto.
> Maybe he just like to belittle the other three pillars or maybe he just
> doesn't know how to differentiate between pillars of Islam and Pillars
> of faith... he is busted this time... lol ;)
> allegorical perhaps.... :-)
There are differences between Shia and Sunni Islam on definition of pillars:
In Shia Islam, the pillars of Islam (usually called Usul-e Din) is defined
as:
1. Monotheism (Tawhid)
2. Divine Justice (Adl)
3. Prophethood (Nubuwwa)
4. Succession (Imama)
5. Resurrection (Qiyama)
And obligatory prayers and fastings are the two main pillars of religion.
Please check the site:
http://www.al-islam.org/invitation/3.htm
http://www.al-islam.org/invitation/4.htm
In none of my postings, I ever mentioned that Islam has two pillars. That's
has been Yassir and Gilberto's interpretation. I am from Shia background and
I see your knowledge of Shia Islam is very limited.
> Firouz Wrote:
>
>>[7:170] And (as for) those who hold fast by the Book and keep up prayer,
>>surely We do not waste the reward of the right doers.
>>Has the other pillars been emphasized so much as prayer in Holy Quran?
> That verse clearly indicates how constant prayer should be, not how it
> is elevated higher than other pillars.
The very fact that there are more verses in Quran talking about prayers and
fastings compared to other pillars show their importance compared to other
pillars.
> The Bahais always have a distorted
> view of the Quran according to their trained understanding from the
> Kitab'i'Iqan...
I should say you have a very distorted view of Baha'i Faith and the
Teachings of Baha'u'llah. I am not sure if you ever read Kitab-i-Iqan to
judge about it. Even if you had read it, your understanding of it would
have been the same as your understanding of Kitab-i-Aqdas which was very
distorted based on your first email talking about the Baha'i laws of
obligatory prayers, ablution, and fasting.
regards,
Firouz
william pike
wrote:
>Dear Michael,
>
>Thanks. I'm just here to prove a point.
IMHO to make some points.
>As a Bahai once, I admit that
>the Bahai faith lacks a lot compared to Islam...then i find out that
>Islam is more perfect that i thought it to be.
It is so good that all the time I was a Baha'i, I claim to be born and
raised as such, in a predominately Muslim country. I was never aware
of just how great the Muslim religion was and how rotten the Baha'i
Faith was. Until I met my future wife who required me to convert to
the Muslim religion if I was going to marry her.
>
>There's two reasons for postings if it had made anyone frustated:
>1. To show the inferiority of the Bahai Faith,
>2. To show that Islam is a better way of life....
>3. I would recommend that Bahai convert to Islam, or if not at least
>improve on the aspects mentioned in my postings, if its depths were
>understood properly...
To me it shows the old "fool in love, syndrome."
>but since non of normal Bahais can do this, then urge the UHJ or
>something. there must be some progress.
Of course the fact that according to Baha'i Law, all Baha'is must have
the consent of all living natural parents to have a Baha'i wedding and
ceremony and be considered married. (people that are married prior to
declaring as Baha'is are grandfathered in) This would include
Fariihin's parents AND his brides parents as well. I wonder if that
might have had something to do with all this.
Sizwe Cawe
--- "kha...@sbcglobal.net" <kha...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> Yassir.
> These ones who justify attacks on civilian
> are nameless ones who are not representing
> any Muslim country,
> Killing innocent Ppl is not accepted by any
> good hearted person.
> Islam has nothing to do with those ones,
> Muslims are not perfect but Islam is,
> The linking of what you said negativly
> about bad Muslims is not the result
> of Islam,even though that is the intention
> of many ones who try to bring Islam down.
>
> Wa Salaam.
> Yassir.
Dear Yassir
Of all your posts I have read, I like the one above
best.
Much love
Sizwe.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
william pike
<gilberto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 7/10/05, william pike <w.h....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> On 10 Jul 2005 13:40:01 GMT, Gilberto Simpson
>> <gilberto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snipped>
>> >This is something I'm still honestly not clear on. WHAT specifically
>> >is it that you are claiming he doesn't know. And WHAT did they say
>> >specifically say that lets you know he doesn't know it?
>> He claimed to have served on Local Spiritual Assemblies and worked
>> with the National Assembly for many years,
>Ok, that hasn't been disproven.
Then why doesn't he know how a person withdraws from the Baha'i Faith
after the many years he claims involvement with the administrative
order with people declaring and withdrawing being processed there all
the time? Would you care to tell me?
In addition to this Muslims in the birthplace of the Baha'i Faith
declare as Baha'is all the time, gather the information that they can
and then take it back to the Mosque and announce how they repented and
have returned to the Muslim fold there is parties and feasting and a
good time is had by all and a number of Baha'is have been identified
for arrest, incarceration and martyrdom.
>then he claimed to not know
>> the procedure for withdrawal from the Baha'i Faith so he didn't
>> withdraw.
>I honestly don't remember seeing him claim that. Can you point to the
>specific post?
You can check in the archives for his first couple of posts.
> Your claim also seems weird because he obviously isn't
>Bahai anymore.
Yet he uses the claim of long membership and deepening and teaching in
the Baha'i Faith as verification and to give credence and validity to
the faults that he finds with the Baha'i Faith. On the other hand the
Muslim Religion, which he has only been a member of for a very short
time, is the greatest thing to have occurred on this planet since the
garden of Eden.
Quite a dissonance! It must be love!!
Actuality he is got involved with a member of the opposite sex who
happens to be a Muslim. This person says that they will only marry if
the Baha'i converts to the Muslim religion.
BTW Baha'is have no regulation regarding marriage to non-Baha'is, my
daughter married a non-Baha'i with our blessings.
Looks to me like they are trying to put on a good show and to curry
favor with the new in-laws and relatives instead of any particular
problem with the Baha'i Faith.
They elected to make a international big deal about this Romeo and
Juliet affair by posting it on several international Internet sites as
a dispute with the Baha'i Faith. You elected to get yourself involved
as a Montague.
BTW one of the non-existent, according to Yassir, Baha'is of Morocco,
who now resides in our community married a Muslim woman many years ago
and they are still married.
>> The facts in the matter is that anyone can withdraw from the Baha'i
>> Faith at any time, all that is required is a identifying letter that
>> the individual renounces their belief in His Holiness Baha'u'llah.
Hey anybody can become a Muslim at any time simply by saying that, "I
declare that, There is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet."
Opps, also if I recall correctly the males must be circumcised, like
those who convert to the Jewish Faith. The Baha'is don't have this
requirement.
But what does a Muslim have to do to formally withdraw their
membership? and what is the result? Being declared as "apostate"
minimum; being declared dead,could be:being condemned to death, its
happened. Hmmmm
kha...@sbcglobal.net
But I am sure you
well know that the main 2 pillars are prayer and fasting,
Yassir.
That is what you said ,and you linked that to Bahai's ,
saying that it is the same ,prayers and fasting
are the 2 main pillars for Bahai and Muslims.
For the Muslims in General She3a or Sunnis
the one who gave the info about the 5 Pillars of Islam is
Prophet Muhammed (3alayhe's'Salaam) himself.
Wa Salaam.
Gilberto Simpson
> Farihin:
> > Thank you, Gilberto.
> > Maybe he just like to belittle the other three pillars or maybe he just
> > doesn't know how to differentiate between pillars of Islam and Pillars
> > of faith... he is busted this time... lol ;)
> > allegorical perhaps.... :-)
Yes, I think he was confused by a certain ambiguity. It's a big
mistake but it is not so big that I would say he was never Muslim.
> There are differences between Shia and Sunni Islam on definition of pillars:
> In Shia Islam, the pillars of Islam (usually called Usul-e Din) is defined
> as:
> 1. Monotheism (Tawhid)
> 2. Divine Justice (Adl)
> 3. Prophethood (Nubuwwa)
> 4. Succession (Imama)
> 5. Resurrection (Qiyama)
When it comes to belief, perhaps.
> And obligatory prayers and fastings are the two main pillars of religion.
> Please check the site:
> http://www.al-islam.org/invitation/4.htm
> In none of my postings, I ever mentioned that Islam has two pillars. That's
> has been Yassir and Gilberto's interpretation.
I am not saying you did. I'm saying it could be (mis)interpreted that
way. Just as the Bahais misinterpreted Farihin.
Peace
Gilberto
Farihin
william pike wrote:
> Ok, they are Muslims without a country. However they claim to be
> Muslims and are not considered to be "outside the fold" by other
> Muslims. They are also supported by "Good Muslims" financially and
> have fairly wide spread support within the general Muslim community.
> As evidenced from my own interactions with local Muslim groups and
> world news organizations.
> Looks to me like maybe Islam has nothing to do with them but Muslims
> do.
> > IMHO the "Bad Muslims" are doing a very good job of bringing the
> > Muslim religion down, as far as the non-Muslim world goes. Perhaps a
> > Jihad of "Good Muslims" against those who are currently destroying the
> > name and image of Islam is warranted? Looks to me like a direct
> > attack on Islam by the "Bad Muslims".
I know many Bahais in my country who have cheated other Bahais and
non-Bahais, evaded tax, even convicted criminals... so all this
non-sense must have some bearing on the Bahai Faith, doesn't it? surely
it has brought down the faith, if we observe the way you posted above
with justice?
you may like to reconsider ur statement, coz anyone can understand that
the Bahai Faith never ask people to cheat or become criminals... but if
you always link terrorism with Islam saying that it has brought the
religion and this and that, then look inwardly towards the Bahai Faith
first...
We have a saying in Malaysia: 'The tiny tick across the oceans is so
clear to you, but the elephant standing in front of you in your own
land is oblivious to you'. Please don't prove to th word that this is
how Bahai justice of reasoning works...
-reposted with corrections, mods-
Farihin
william pike wrote:
> Then why doesn't he know how a person withdraws from the Baha'i Faith
> after the many years he claims involvement with the administrative
> order with people declaring and withdrawing being processed there all
> the time? Would you care to tell me?
Of course I know the proper procedure... And i have done it! No where
have i ever wrote that I didn't know how to withdraw. It would be best
if you care to read properly and carefully before saying such
falsities.
Easy, just write to your LSA and NSA saying you wish to witdraw... and
thats what i did.
> In addition to this Muslims in the birthplace of the Baha'i Faith
> declare as Baha'is all the time, gather the information that they can
> and then take it back to the Mosque and announce how they repented and
> have returned to the Muslim fold there is parties and feasting and a
> good time is had by all and a number of Baha'is have been identified
> for arrest, incarceration and martyrdom.
Thanks for the insight that everyone already knows about. Anything new?
In my case, again if cared to peruse properly, i was born into a Bahai
family and given what is considered a Bahai name even. So this theory
doesn' really apply to me. That's why whenever I say something, i
really ask you from experience.
> >then he claimed to not know
> >> the procedure for withdrawal from the Baha'i Faith so he didn't
> >> withdraw.
Who said i didn't withdraw? I said the NSA had a few words with family
that i didn't much prefer when i withdrew... please focus!
> You can check in the archives for his first couple of posts.
Try checking them urself first...
> Yet he uses the claim of long membership and deepening and teaching in
> the Baha'i Faith as verification and to give credence and validity to
> the faults that he finds with the Baha'i Faith. On the other hand the
> Muslim Religion, which he has only been a member of for a very short
> time, is the greatest thing to have occurred on this planet since the
> garden of Eden.
I can't change who i was... and was a very stounge bahai. If i can see
that the perfection of Islam in such a short time, its because i was
bahai before.
> Quite a dissonance! It must be love!
Thanks for your diagnosis, doc! Please show me your papers... ;)
> Actuality he is got involved with a member of the opposite sex who
> happens to be a Muslim. This person says that they will only marry if
> the Baha'i converts to the Muslim religion.
Obvious ignorance! Let me type slowly, coz i know u can't read fast...
In my country, there's no compulsion in religion. Its a matter of
law... Muslims only can marry muslims... it is only POSSIBLE to marry
only if i convert. At the time i felt as if it was force. But thinking
back, i was the one to go looking for the Islamic centre to convert,
not a bunch of policemen forcing me to convert, right? basically it was
my free will and i am glad now....
> BTW Baha'is have no regulation regarding marriage to non-Baha'is, my
> daughter married a non-Baha'i with our blessings.
Common knowledge there, nothing new... good for you though. But think,
in the long run, how is the Bahai family law going to be implemented
when one of the spouse isn't a BAhai...?
> Looks to me like they are trying to put on a good show and to curry
> favor with the new in-laws and relatives instead of any particular
> problem with the Baha'i Faith.
Care to develop a thesis with that observation? If i'm trying to put on
a good show, then why am here in this newsgroup. Think....
> They elected to make a international big deal about this Romeo and
> Juliet affair by posting it on several international Internet sites as
> a dispute with the Baha'i Faith. You elected to get yourself involved
> as a Montague.
What? elaborate pls. Elected? International internet site? I elect
myself, i wonder who else voted for me?
> BTW one of the non-existent, according to Yassir, Baha'is of Morocco,
> who now resides in our community married a Muslim woman many years ago
> and they are still married.
>
> >> The facts in the matter is that anyone can withdraw from the Baha'i
> >> Faith at any time, all that is required is a identifying letter that
> >> the individual renounces their belief in His Holiness Baha'u'llah.
> Hey anybody can become a Muslim at any time simply by saying that, "I
> declare that, There is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet."
> Opps, also if I recall correctly the males must be circumcised, like
> those who convert to the Jewish Faith. The Baha'is don't have this
> requirement.
Well i beg, really beg, to differ. The Kalimah Shahada says: "I bear
witness there is none other god beside Allah, and testify that Prophet
Muhamad is the Messenger of Allah". It's normal for this statement to
be distorted and belittle its importance by bahais. A further study
indicates that Allah is the reference to God, and not just simply
'GOD'.
There's no 'MUST be circumcised' thingy... i wasn't force to
circumcise. This just proves the shallowness of the above remarks...
> But what does a Muslim have to do to formally withdraw their
> membership? and what is the result? Being declared as "apostate"
> minimum; being declared dead,could be:being condemned to death, its
> happened. Hmmmm
Islam is a way of life. If you don't want to be a muslim, don't live
it.
But the Bahai faith is just a declaration card, even if the person
doesn't live the life.... see the difference!
william pike
The proof of your words are your own words.
Please enjoy your "new" old religion.
BTW I am NOT an enemy of Islam, the Baha'i Faith is the latest chapter
in Islam.
I am not an enemy of the Muslim religion, the Muslims are having a
meeting here on the 22 of July. I have defended the Muslim religion in
a number of commercially televised religious forums.
I am an enemy of hypocrisy and religious bigotry.
william pike
wrote:
>Ok, lets try it with justice now...
Exactly. However the Baha'is have not been supported in their
nefarious activities and are jailed and condemned by other Baha'is.
The Muslim terrorists have and are being supported by other Muslims.
End of story.
Farihin
then what are jinns?
Surah Al Hijr (The Rocky Tract)...
26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape;
27. And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a
scorching wind.
Surah Al Rahman (The Most Gracious)
13. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
14. He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery.
15. And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke:
Here it clearly states the creation and existence of another race of
beings called jinns... is this allegorical also?
For Bahais, do jinns actually exist?
PP PL - humbly yours
> Here it clearly states the creation and existence of another race of
> beings called jinns... is this allegorical also?
>
> For Bahais, do jinns actually exist?
No, Baha'is view jinn, Satan, evil, heaven, hell, day of resurrection,
day of judgement, day of God, and other Islamic concepts,
allegorically.
For instance, heaven does "actually" exist, but the vivid descriptions
in the Qur'an are interpreted in a symbolic way by Baha'is. We can
even have heaven on earth. Even Baha'u'llah Himself uses vivid
descriptions to paint heaven and hell, but He clarifies that even His
own vivid references to hell and satan, for instance, are meant to be
symbolically descriptive of the REALITY of the "human state of distance
for God" (hell) and "the destructive nature of the human ego and
selfish desires" (Satan).
You Farihin are a wonderfully-scented rose blooming under the summer
Sun. Though this statement does not mean that you are a skinny green
and tall guy with rose-peddles for a head, it IS a true statement in
that you are noble and are recipient of the Light/Glory/Baha of God in
this Day of God through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
sma...@jam.rr.com
> The solats are already so systematic, from its timing, right down to
> the numbers of rakaats and the nitty-gritty that goes along with it.
> Then why suddenly is this abrogated and left to be irrelevent is
> something very puzzling. Furthermore, it has been replaced with another
> set of Solats that have no system compared to Islam.
Dear Farhin,
Some of us look more at content rather than form.
In that spirit i
> investigated Islam,
I thought you became a Muslim without investigation, in order to get
married.
> Thanks. I would urge anyone to have this spirit of independent
> investigation that Bahaullah speaks about.
Can they get a wife that way?
warmest, Susan
Farihin
> No, Baha'is view jinn, Satan, evil, heaven, hell, day of resurrection,
> day of judgement, day of God, and other Islamic concepts,
> allegorically.
Then the statement that man was made from substance of the earth is
also allegorical? come on... don't u think that one is true ,then the
rest should follow?
> For instance, heaven does "actually" exist, but the vivid descriptions
> in the Qur'an are interpreted in a symbolic way by Baha'is. We can
> even have heaven on earth. Even Baha'u'llah Himself uses vivid
> descriptions to paint heaven and hell, but He clarifies that even His
> own vivid references to hell and satan, for instance, are meant to be
> symbolically descriptive of the REALITY of the "human state of distance
> for God" (hell) and "the destructive nature of the human ego and
> selfish desires" (Satan).
SO god created us with built-in evil features... i thought Bahais
believe that god only creates good, evil is something from man... so
how?
> You Farihin are a wonderfully-scented rose blooming under the summer
> Sun. Though this statement does not mean that you are a skinny green
> and tall guy with rose-peddles for a head, it IS a true statement in
> that you are noble and are recipient of the Light/Glory/Baha of God in
> this Day of God through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
why all the winding and crooked language? just say it straight and
direct.
Maybe that's difference between a false revelation and a true
revelation?
sma...@jam.rr.com
> If in-fact it was against the Governmental laws to be a Baha'i there
> would be no National Spiritual Assembly for you to work with and there
> would be no Local Spiritual Assemblies to be a member of.
Dear William,
You are misunderstanding Farhin. He is saying that the law required him
to convert to Islam if he wanted to marry a Muslim woman. This is the
case in most Muslim countries. That is why I accused him of shirk,
because in abandoning his religion to get married he put this girl
before God.
I married a man of Muslim background, though he was a Baha'i. His very
fanatical father insisted that Nizam return to Islam and I become a
Muslim too. But I wrote him a letter saying that surely he did not want
Nizam to change his religion for love of a woman. What would God say on
the Judgement Day if he became a Muslim not because he loved Islam but
because he wanted to get married. He wrote me back and gave consent.
But this was India, not a Muslim country. And while the Shariah
sometimes allows a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim it never allows a
Muslim woman to do the same.
warmest, Susan
Farihin
> You seem to have a little problem. If, as you claim,
>
> [And embracing Islam is actually a requirement of law here,,,]
>
> Then how can you claim to have been a Baha'i serving on Local
> Spiritual Assemblies? One of the fundamental laws of the Baha'i Faith
> is "Obedience to Government, even when the laws conflict with the
> Baha'i Laws; up to renouncing of His Holiness Baha'u'llah.
To me and wherever the the Bahai laws are NOT laws of the country,
their just a set of principles that Bahais strive to follow, but if
they can't then it's alright to follow the norm. And furthermore, at
the time i didn't renaunce Bahaullah, i merely wanted to disenroll from
Bahai membership as an organization... thats it. but evn this is called
renunciation....? i know what the writings say, but i doesn't make much
sense....
> If in-fact it was against the Governmental laws to be a Baha'i there
> would be no National Spiritual Assembly for you to work with and there
> would be no Local Spiritual Assemblies to be a member of. That is the
> situation that exists in other countries where the Baha'i Faith is
> outlawed by the governments.
Again you assume that. no one said the Bahai faith is outlawed...
> You were either disobeying the laws of the country you reside in,
> which is against Baha'i Law or you are lying in your claim of
> membership in the Muslim religion being a requirement.
maybe you didn't understand. I was required to embrace islam in order
to marry coz muslims cannot renounce here. So i must embrace. Lying?
this may the 100th time, I'm not lying.
> I suspect that it was more a requirement of your Muslim Bride. Young
> women have always led men around since the demise of the caveman.
LIke i told you its a requirement of muslim law. Why is that Bahais
like to allege fraud whenever another Bahai uncovers the great Bahai
fraud?
Kent Johnson
> beings called jinns... is this allegorical also?
>
> For Bahais, do jinns actually exist?
For Bahais the worlds of God are numberless. We do not know even the
smallest fraction of what exists in God's creation. I cannot tell you what,
in religious scripture, is allegorical, what is literal, and what is both.
I do know that the principles and forces at work in allegorical references
are real principles and forces. When, for example, Baha'u'llah says that
God's influence is like the Sun it means that the Sun has a real influence,
has real power, and that the power and influence is something we should all
understand to the best of our ability.
When other Baha'is say that jinns, spirits, angels, trolls, or any manner of
being referred to in literature of old is allegorical or non-existent that
is the other Baha'is opinion and nothing more. None of the central figures
of the Baha'i Faith said such beings do not exist. Many literary passages
that contain such beings can be understood allegorically, but that does not
mean such beings exist, or for that matter that they do not exist.
--Kent
william pike
wrote:
>PP PL - humbly yours wrote:
>> No, Baha'is view jinn, Satan, evil, heaven, hell, day of resurrection,
>> day of judgement, day of God, and other Islamic concepts,
>> allegorically.
>
>Then the statement that man was made from substance of the earth is
>also allegorical? come on... don't u think that one is true ,then the
>rest should follow?
Actually mankind and everything else is the stuff of stars not earth.
>> For instance, heaven does "actually" exist, but the vivid descriptions
>> in the Qur'an are interpreted in a symbolic way by Baha'is. We can
>> even have heaven on earth. Even Baha'u'llah Himself uses vivid
>> descriptions to paint heaven and hell, but He clarifies that even His
>> own vivid references to hell and satan, for instance, are meant to be
>> symbolically descriptive of the REALITY of the "human state of distance
>> for God" (hell) and "the destructive nature of the human ego and
>> selfish desires" (Satan).
>
>SO god created us with built-in evil features... i thought Bahais
>believe that god only creates good, evil is something from man... so
>how?
It is called "FREE WILL". Of course some have more free-will than
others.
>> You Farihin are a wonderfully-scented rose blooming under the summer
>> Sun. Though this statement does not mean that you are a skinny green
>> and tall guy with rose-peddles for a head, it IS a true statement in
>> that you are noble and are recipient of the Light/Glory/Baha of God in
>> this Day of God through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
>
>why all the winding and crooked language? just say it straight and
>direct.
You mean that you have rejected your religion in order to marry a
woman of another religion and put that woman before your relationship
to God?
>Maybe that's difference between a false revelation and a true
>revelation?
Could be!
william pike
Have you ever seen an angel or shook hands with one God is supposed to
have created them? What about a demon or devil? God is supposed to
have created them as well. Maybe the devil made you do it, but did it
put its hand on your shoulder and direct you?
>
>For Bahais, do jinns actually exist?
Maybe so maybe not, different planes of existence. For that matter
God said that God only created Man with free-will so all the rest of
creation is strictly under the control of God and does nothing without
the direction of God.
I used to prefer my "Jinns" with tonic until I became a Baha'i.
Are you saying that God couldn't have created Jinns and Elves and
Dragons and Orcs and Monsters-under-the-bed and things-that-go-bump-in
the-night.
william pike
wrote:
>william pike wrote:
>> You seem to have a little problem. If, as you claim,
>>
>> [And embracing Islam is actually a requirement of law here,,,]
>>
>> Then how can you claim to have been a Baha'i serving on Local
>> Spiritual Assemblies? One of the fundamental laws of the Baha'i Faith
>> is "Obedience to Government, even when the laws conflict with the
>> Baha'i Laws; up to renouncing of His Holiness Baha'u'llah.
>
>To me and wherever the the Bahai laws are NOT laws of the country,
>their just a set of principles that Bahais strive to follow, but if
>they can't then it's alright to follow the norm.
I can see why you find the Muslim religion more attractive.
> And furthermore, at
>the time i didn't renaunce Bahaullah, i merely wanted to disenroll from
>Bahai membership as an organization... thats it.
Ok, this is one of the times when you didn't withdraw and then there
were the times you said that you did withdraw and that Assemblies
harassed you and your family.
I wouldn't tell your new Muslim friends that if I were you. A Muslim
who believes that there are two Prophets subsequent to His Holiness
Muhammad "The Seal of the Prophets." You might get taken out into the
rice paddy...
>but evn this is called
>renunciation....? i know what the writings say, but i doesn't make much
>sense....
And the primary teaching of the Muslim religion is submissiveness and
obedience to God.
>> If in-fact it was against the Governmental laws to be a Baha'i there
>> would be no National Spiritual Assembly for you to work with and there
>> would be no Local Spiritual Assemblies to be a member of. That is the
>> situation that exists in other countries where the Baha'i Faith is
>> outlawed by the governments.
>Again you assume that. no one said the Bahai faith is outlawed...
Perhaps you should read again, I was demonstrating that the Baha'i
Faith was NOT outlawed in Malaysia as there are functioning Baha'i
Assemblies there.
>> You were either disobeying the laws of the country you reside in,
>> which is against Baha'i Law or you are lying in your claim of
>> membership in the Muslim religion being a requirement.
>
>maybe you didn't understand. I was required to embrace islam in order
>to marry coz muslims cannot renounce here. So i must embrace. Lying?
>this may the 100th time, I'm not lying.
Ah, the Muslim religion and the Malaysian government forbids
renunciation of the Muslim religion and forbids conversion to the
Baha'i Faith seems to me like a number of Malaysians who broke, what
you claim, is the Malaysian law by becoming Baha'is of course Baha'is
are forbidden to break civil laws. I don't think that every
Malaysian Baha'i has moved there from another country.
>> I suspect that it was more a requirement of your Muslim Bride. Young
>> women have always led men around since the demise of the caveman.
>LIke i told you its a requirement of muslim law.
And a woman has led you around into renouncing your religion.
Don't get hassled!, this has happened and happens all the time over
all the world and not just to Baha'i men.
Men have always gotten led around by women, I think it has to do
with where men process most of their thoughts. Look at what Helen of
Troy managed to do.
I would suspect that if you had found a Baha'i woman you would still
claim membership in the Baha'i Faith and continued to reject the
Muslim religion.
>Why is that Bahais
>like to allege fraud whenever another Bahai uncovers the great Bahai
>fraud?
Because when they "uncover the Great Baha'i Fraud" they obviously
cannot claim to be a Baha'i but are apostate and are therefore guilty
of fraud if they claim to be a Baha'i. Relax, Baha'is don't murder
apostates.
william pike
Thank you for the clarification.
I ran into the same thing when we were married 35 years ago, both my
father and her mother wanted to withhold consent on grounds that we
were an interracial couple.
Sounds to me like your evaluation of "shirk" is accurate from what he
has just posted.
Pax Terra
God said BE!
and Symmetry was fractured!
Suzanne Gerstner
> When other Baha'is say that jinns, spirits, angels, trolls, or any manner
> of
> being referred to in literature of old is allegorical or non-existent that
> is the other Baha'is opinion and nothing more. None of the central
> figures
> of the Baha'i Faith said such beings do not exist.
Dear Kent,
Are you sure? Here's a passage written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi that
says that Jins are symbolic:
"Regarding your question as to the meaning of Jin or Genii referred to in
the Qur'an, these are not beings or creatures that are actually living, but
are symbolic references to the power of men of evil and may be likened to
evil spirits. But the point to bear in mind is that these have no positive
existence of any kind."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
believer, June 26, 1936: Baha'i News, No. 105, p. 1, February
1937; Lights of Guidance, Page: 498)
Also, 'Abdu'l-Baha says that Satan (who is spoken of in the Bible), and evil
spirits mentioned in the Holy Books are metaphorical for our lower nature.
God has never created an evil spirit:
733. Evil Spirits Refer to Lower Nature of Man
"The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or
whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This
baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two
expressions: One is the expression of nature; the other the expression of
the spiritual realm. The world of nature is defective. Look at it clearly,
casting aside all superstition and imagination... God has never created an
evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere
human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of
earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively
speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of
nature."
(Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294-295, 1982
ed.)
(Lights of Guidance, Page: 513)
Kind regards,
Suzanne
Farihin
Kent Johnson wrote:
> For Bahais the worlds of God are numberless. We do not know even the
> smallest fraction of what exists in God's creation. I cannot tell you what,
> in religious scripture, is allegorical, what is literal, and what is both.
Why numberless? we are talking about jinns only, is there are an answer
or not?
> I do know that the principles and forces at work in allegorical references
> are real principles and forces. When, for example, Baha'u'llah says that
> God's influence is like the Sun it means that the Sun has a real influence,
> has real power, and that the power and influence is something we should all
> understand to the best of our ability.
Then why give allegorical in the first place? Just say that the
influences are real. Always the statements are both allegorical and
clear statements and the same time, but the quran in either allegorical
or clear statements... so its easy to identify.
> When other Baha'is say that jinns, spirits, angels, trolls, or any manner of
> being referred to in literature of old is allegorical or non-existent that
> is the other Baha'is opinion and nothing more. None of the central figures
> of the Baha'i Faith said such beings do not exist. Many literary passages
> that contain such beings can be understood allegorically, but that does not
> mean such beings exist, or for that matter that they do not exist.
again, we are not talking about spirits, angels or trolls, or evn
vampires and demons... we are addressing the existence of one being
that is called jinns. here you've made it even vague for me. Do jinns
exist or not according to the writings? and give supporting writings...
sma...@jam.rr.com
> the time i didn't renaunce Bahaullah, i merely wanted to disenroll from
> Bahai membership as an organization... thats it. but evn this is called
> renunciation....?
Dear Farhin,
But you converted to another religion. So it wasn't simply a matter of
leaving the Baha'i organization. If any Baha'i institution tried to
dissuade you from leaving the Faith, as you asserted earlier it would
be because you did *not* want to renounce Baha'u'llah.
>I was required to embrace islam in order
> to marry coz muslims cannot renounce here.
Do you agree that people who wish to leave Islam should be forced to
remain under pain of death for apostacy like your new religion teaches?
Do you believe that converts should be accepted simply because they
want to get married?
Are these laws better than Baha'i laws which adhere to freedom of
conscience?
> LIke i told you its a requirement of muslim law. Why is that Bahais
> like to allege fraud whenever another Bahai uncovers the great Bahai
> fraud?
Converting to a religion simply to get married *is* a fraud Farhin. I
don't see how in good conscience you can consider it anything else.
Your actions here remind me very much of what happens when someone
would be arrested in Iran on charges of being a Babi or a Baha'i. When
asked to deny Baha'u'llah some of the weaker ones would do so. But then
they would be told to prove their conversion by cursing Baha'u'llah.
Usually at that point their fear of God would be more than their fear
of man and they would die before doing such a thing. But in order to
get this girl and persuade the Muslim community (and perhaps yourself)
of your sincerity you have been willing to take that final step, to
curse Baha'u'llah and His religion.
I hope you can live with this choice. As you know, it is not one you
can now undo. If you try and leave Islam now, according to Islamic law
Muslims may kill you.
And this is the religion you imagine to be better than our own.
Susan
Gilberto Simpson
>
> > The solats are already so systematic, from its timing, right down to
> > the numbers of rakaats and the nitty-gritty that goes along with it.
> > Then why suddenly is this abrogated and left to be irrelevent is
> > something very puzzling. Furthermore, it has been replaced with another
> > set of Solats that have no system compared to Islam.
>
> Dear Farhin,
>
> Some of us look more at content rather than form.
>
> In that spirit i
> > investigated Islam,
>
> I thought you became a Muslim without investigation, in order to get
> married.
>
There is not a conflict. It is totally plausible for people to know
one another, become somewhat attracted to one another, and if
religion is an issue start to investigate the other religion. If they
decide they can accept the religion (along with everything else) they
go ahead and get married. But if they decide they can't, then they
don't.
More than a few Bahais are coming off as *REALLY* insulting in the
way they are denigrating Farihin's intentions. Over e-mail, I heard
from one Bahai who apparently found something out and realizes that 1)
Farihin is not Yassir. (And I would say that people who made this
implication should apologize for accusing Farihin of lying) and 2)
Farihin actually comes from a Bahai family just as he claims.
Peace
Gilberto
sma...@jam.rr.com
> also allegorical?
Farhin,
The Qur'an says we were made of clay. By interpreting it as 'the
substance of the earth' you have already made it allegorical.
> why all the winding and crooked language? just say it straight and
> direct.
> Maybe that's difference between a false revelation and a true
> revelation?
"And verily We have coined for mankind in this Qur'an all kinds of
similitudes, that haply they may reflect" Qur'an 39:27
Susan
Farihin
sma...@jam.rr.com wrote:
> You are misunderstanding Farhin. He is saying that the law required him
> to convert to Islam if he wanted to marry a Muslim woman. This is the
> case in most Muslim countries. That is why I accused him of shirk,
> because in abandoning his religion to get married he put this girl
> before God.
I'd say even that accusation is false. Check out shirik first next
time...
For your information abandoning ones religion is apostasy, murtad. NOT
SHIRIK.
> I married a man of Muslim background, though he was a Baha'i. His very
> fanatical father insisted that Nizam return to Islam and I become a
> Muslim too. But I wrote him a letter saying that surely he did not want
> Nizam to change his religion for love of a woman. What would God say on
> the Judgement Day if he became a Muslim not because he loved Islam but
> because he wanted to get married. He wrote me back and gave consent.
> But this was India, not a Muslim country. And while the Shariah
> sometimes allows a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim it never allows a
> Muslim woman to do the same.
Allah works in many ways. This way for me maybe a way to open my heart
which was like a stone when i was a bahai like you.... now its
definitely different. That mean Bahai should remove the obligation of a
bahai marriage because its very disturbing to someone who doesn't want
it, right?
Farihin
> Some of us look more at content rather than form.
"some"...
> I thought you became a Muslim without investigation, in order to get
> married.
Yes, at first... like you, i just investigated Islam enough to prove
the Bahai faith, like taking from unauthenthic hadiths, quoting the
Quran out of context, and using anologies like progressive revelations,
and saying that the numbers of Bahais againts Muslims doesn't reflect
on the truth of the cause.
But slowly, after practising Islam, i became ore interested and i
pursued studying more in-depth and thats what leads me to this
newsgroup... I'm just saying, what you think you know about islam isn't
really enough.
> Can they get a wife that way?
oooohhhhhhh, Susan... i'd never figure in hundred years you'd be
interested. You should have told me earlier.... ;)
sma...@jam.rr.com
> then what are jinns?
Perhaps you're a Jinn, Farhin. ;-}
As you know the Jinn are said to have been made of fire.
Volume 2 of Fadil's amr va khalq, pp 161-164 has a couple of passages
where Abdu'l-Baha speaks of the jinn as people who are created with
the fire of the love of God, etc. but, it could also mean people who
disbelieve in the Manifestation of God because of their haughtiness and
arrogance, etc. In another passage, He suggests that jinn are those
persons whose belief or denial is hidden and unknown. (My thanks to Dr.
Iskandar Hai for bring these to my attention some years ago.)
There is also this letter written on behalf of the Guardian:
"Regarding your question as to the meaning of Jin or Genii referred
to in the Qur'an, these are not beings or creatures that are actually
living, but are symbolic references to the power of men of evil and may
be likened to evil spirits. But the point to bear in mind is that
these have no positive existence of any kind."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an
individual believer, June 26, 1936: Baha'i News, No. 105, p. 1,
February 1937)
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 498)
Here is a list of possible meanings if we combine what Abdu'l-Baha and
Shoghi Effendi said together. It would seem that jinn can be a positive
or negative appelation.
1. Those who have been set afire with the love of God.
2. Those who reject God's Manifestation, like Satan (one of the Jinn)
who refused to bow down before Adam when orderd by God saying "Adam is
of clay whereas we are of pure fire."
3. Those whose faith is unknown.
4. Evil men in general.
So. to paraphrase Salman Rushdie's famous question, what sort of jinn
are you?
warmest, Susan
Farihin
light on this matter as how islam has.
william pike wrote:
> Have you ever seen an angel or shook hands with one God is supposed to
> have created them? What about a demon or devil? God is supposed to
> have created them as well. Maybe the devil made you do it, but did it
> put its hand on your shoulder and direct you?
Again, no answer.... Have shook hands with God?
> >For Bahais, do jinns actually exist?
> Maybe so maybe not, different planes of existence. For that matter
> God said that God only created Man with free-will so all the rest of
> creation is strictly under the control of God and does nothing without
> the direction of God.
Again it goes to show, Bahais don't know more than Islam about jinns.
Its just vague explanations about plains of existence.
We're NOT talking about whether man was created with free-will or
whether rest of creation is strictly under the control of god.
Question is simple. Do JINNS in particular exist?? If you can answer
that, then do, if not admit it.
> Are you saying that God couldn't have created Jinns and Elves and
> Dragons and Orcs and Monsters-under-the-bed and things-that-go-bump-in
> the-night.
Try to stay on course... We are all grown ups here. Answer the question
please
Farihin
First you say they are made from fire.... then u give ur own
interpretation that it actually means people... then u interpret it as
positive or negative appelations...
So they don't exist? They were never created? Are they a separate
entity? Its still not clear to me? Looks like even the Bahai writings
also don't make it clear.
So if they were CREATED from the fire of the love of god, where are
they? they must creatures to be created, right?