Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Re: Does this mean what I think it does?

10 views
Skip to first unread message

tsuki190

unread,
Nov 4, 2009, 9:43:24 AM11/4/09
to mike3, soc-relig...@moderators.isc.org
The news group is down so nothing is being posted.

What you found doesnt mean much, just what Mr, Dempsey thought after he cam
e
home from a life of distinguished service in pioneering posts and
didnt get the respect
he thought was merited. He is generalizing or stereotyping all
Americans as being a
certain way and that is (of course) not accurate.l

Yours,
Tom

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 1:20 AM, mike3 <mike...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I discovered this post:
> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/2bea1a46540a2546?hl
en&dmodesource
>
> "Dear beloved Baha'i Friends,      Our Faith is very simple, the
> uneducated in Asia and Africa understand better the Faith than we
> educated friends in America.   Asia and Africa have the spritual wing
> but are deficient in the scientific or materialistic wing.  We have a
> strong scientific or material wing but lack in spirituality.  The
> Beloved Guardian said American believers think they are spiritual but
> they are not.   The great principle of our Faith is Divine Unity.
> The
> Asians and Africans accept this Principle but the American friends do
> not really accept the Oeness of Mankind, part of the principle of
> Divine
> Unity.  We call the nonacception of this principle racism.   The
> Beloved
> Guardian said the Americans and Europeans have taken racism
> throughtout
> the world teaching that black people have tails and eat babies.   I
> have
> pioneered 35 years and more in Asia and Africa and lived in Europe for
> a
> year.  My life experiences being born in Michigan, studying in five
> different white colleges and universities and pioneering in five
> different states in the U.S. South verifies every word spoken by the
> Dearly Beloved Baha'i Guardian.   D.Morgan, Distinguished Flying
> Cross,
> commander of two different battalions, holder of thirteen decorations
> for valor from the U.S. Gov.   "
>
> Does this mean that someone from America could never ever ever hope to
> get as "spiritually advanced" as someone from Asia or Africa no matter
> how much they'd want it and could never hope to understand the
> religion like they do? Esp. with that quote from the Guardian that
> supposedly says "American believers think they are spiritual but they
> are not", which SEEMS to suggest that if you're from America, you're
> toast, as otherwise you'd be an American believer that would really BE
> spiritual and so serve as a counterexample to something the Guardian
> said!!!! Or is it possible to get rid of the American "materialism" or
> whatever enough to the point that such a thing would be possible?
>

--
http://livedesigning.books.officelive.com/default.aspx
Flexible document design and publishing for print, web, and video.

mike3

unread,
Nov 7, 2009, 3:18:22 AM11/7/09
to soc-relig...@moderators.isc.org
On Nov 4, 7:43 am, tsuki190 <tsuki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The news group is down so nothing is being posted.
>
> What you found doesnt mean much, just what Mr, Dempsey thought after he c
am
> e
> home from a life of distinguished service in pioneering posts and
> didnt get the respect
> he thought was merited.  He is generalizing or stereotyping all
> Americans as being a
> certain way and that is (of course) not accurate.l
>

So what then is this quote from the Guardian he mentions -- is
there really something there then that says that there aren't any
really
spiritual American believers, just those who "think" it? Or worse,
that
there can't be/they can't change?

And the Eastern societies have their share of problems, too, including
spiritual ones.

Douglas McAdam

unread,
Nov 7, 2009, 11:24:24 AM11/7/09
to bahai...@bcca.org, soc-relig...@moderators.isc.org
Hi Tom -
What do you mean that the group is down?
Also Mike 3(mike4ty4), I'm wondering why it is that you would be looking back into old discussions and opening them up again?  Not that there is anything wrong with this but I'm just curious as to why you would even be looking back into old files?  However now that you brought it up and Tom has responded I feel prompted to offer "another" point of view.

Dempsey was a spearhead of many wonderful teaching projects abroad that brought in thousands of new believers, unlike what has and is going on here in America.  I myself witnessed large groups of declarations when pioneering in remote areas of Mexico.  Why is this?  Why are the downtrodden, simple, needy, less academically educated so more prone to the spirit as opposed to our experience here in a largely materialistic society?  Dempsey believes in  two types of materialism, i.e. one like Americans who favor "things", technology, "bigger and more is better" and that of less modern cultures who have superstitious beliefs or in some way literalist types of Christianity or Islam and tribal religions.   I think he has a point here but I also agree we maybe should not generalize that all Americans are like this.

I see how there appears to be a different kind of materialism in the East and West in general.  The Beloved Master said -
  "The root cause of wrongdoing is ignorance, and we must therefore hold fast to the tools of perception and knowledge. Good character must be taught. Light must be spread afar, so that, in the school of humanity, all may acquire the heavenly characteristics of the spirit, and see for themselves beyond any doubt that there is no fiercer Hell, no more fiery abyss, than to possess a character that is evil and unsound; no more darksome pit nor loathsome torment than to show forth qualities which deserve to be condemned." (Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, Sec. 111) pp. 136-37)

I think the Master was talking about holistic education here, not just the academic variety.  However it does seem to me that in the Western world we more or less favor academic strength instead of "feelings" whereas in the other parts of the world they have less academic strength and more of the "feeling" type of attitudes.  I recall old teachers talking about "head people" and "heart people" meaning there was an inbalance wherein some made decisions based soley on intellect and others made decisions mostly on feelings whereas we need to have balance.  In other words we need to channel our feelings through realistic knowledge.  

One of the issues I often find my own classes dealing with is that of the double standard of our society.  This could be a separate subject to discuss but briefly many are saying how come it is that we have so many societal and corporate leaders receiving high education in ivy league schools and yet there are so many examples of violations of human rights, so much poverty, crime, drug and alcohol abuse, injustices, etc.?  Why is it that we do not abide by our Constitution and guaranteed equal rights such as universal and compulsory education for all?  

So, in summary then, I can see how Dempsey could see a difference in the cultures where he taught and that of where he grew up and lived in here in America.  But the also saw a different type of materialism in those other cultures.  When the two types of cultures are united I'm sure it will release a whole new stage of development in society.

regards,
doug
 

On Nov 4, 2009, at 9:43 AM, tsuki190 wrote:

The news group is down so nothing is being posted.

What you found doesnt mean much, just what Mr, Dempsey thought after he cam
e
home from a life of distinguished service in pioneering posts and
didnt get the respect
he thought was merited.  He is generalizing or stereotyping all
Americans as being a
certain way and that is (of course) not accurate.l

Yours,
Tom

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 1:20 AM, mike3 <mike...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi.

I discovered this post:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/2bea1a46540a2546?hl
=en&dmode=source

drgoplayer

unread,
Nov 7, 2009, 12:06:51 PM11/7/09
to soc-relig...@moderators.isc.org
Hi Doug,

Starting mid-October the newsgroup was completely down. We seem to
have it back up now.
Many posts were lost and nothing went out to email subscribers. It
seems to be working now
but since I am not entirely sure why the downtime lasted so long, I am
watching it.

Thanks for the perspective!

Hi Mike,
The Baha'i faith doesn't condemn whole swathes of people. There are
plenty of spiritual Americans
and plenty of materialistic people in other cultures. Its an
individual thing, we each have our tests to
meet and hopefully overcome.

As an American and Baha'i I can identify systemic problems in American
culture (and in the other cultures
that have been transplanted here). I hope that the Baha'i youth
coming up in our communities now
will not be so strongly affected by these things. And their children
again less so!

Yours,
Tom

> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 1:20 AM, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Hi.
>
> >> I discovered this post:

> >>http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/2bea1a46540a254..
..
> > en&dmodesource

mike3

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 3:34:47 PM11/24/09
to soc-relig...@moderators.isc.org
On Nov 7, 9:24 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hi Tom -
> What do you mean that the group is down?
> Also Mike 3(mike4ty4), I'm wondering why it is that you would be  
> looking back into old discussions and opening them up again?  Not that
 
> there is anything wrong with this but I'm just curious as to why you  
> would even be looking back into old files?  However now that you  
> brought it up and Tom has responded I feel prompted to offer "another"
 
> point of view.
>

Because I just browse the Google archive, and I see things that catch
my eye.

> Dempsey was a spearhead of many wonderful teaching projects abroad  
> that brought in thousands of new believers, unlike what has and is  
> going on here in America.  I myself witnessed large groups of  
> declarations when pioneering in remote areas of Mexico.  Why is this?
 
> Why are the downtrodden, simple, needy, less academically educated so  
> more prone to the spirit as opposed to our experience here in a  
> largely materialistic society?  Dempsey believes in  two types of  
> materialism, i.e. one like Americans who favor "things", technology,  
> "bigger and more is better" and that of less modern cultures who have  
> superstitious beliefs or in some way literalist types of Christianity  
> or Islam and tribal religions.   I think he has a point here but I  
> also agree we maybe should not generalize that all Americans are like  
> this.
>

Well the generalization makes it sound hopeless like they can't
change,
that's how it is if you're from America and you're stuck that way. And
I
also wonder about this: "The Beloved Guardian said American believers
think they are spiritual but they are not." Where's this Guardian
quote?
This also seems to add to the "hopeless" feeling because it's like, no
matter how strongly you hold or even try to practice the belief, you
quite
possibly aren't really "spiritual" but just "think" you are as you're
still
"American". Not sure if that's really accurate as it's tricky to try
and
describe but I hope you can get my drift. It makes it sound like the
"Americanness" reduces "it" to mere "thought" of being spiritual and
that one can't "really" be spiritual because of it.

> I see how there appears to be a different kind of materialism in the  
> East and West in general.  The Beloved Master said -
>    "The root cause of wrongdoing is ignorance, and we must therefore
 
> hold fast to the tools of perception and knowledge. Good character  
> must be taught. Light must be spread afar, so that, in the school of  
> humanity, all may acquire the heavenly characteristics of the spirit,  
> and see for themselves beyond any doubt that there is no fiercer Hell,
 
> no more fiery abyss, than to possess a character that is evil and  
> unsound; no more darksome pit nor loathsome torment than to show forth
 
> qualities which deserve to be condemned." (Selections from the  
> Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, Sec. 111) pp. 136-37)
>
> I think the Master was talking about holistic education here, not just
 
> the academic variety.  However it does seem to me that in the Western
 
> world we more or less favor academic strength instead of "feelings"  
> whereas in the other parts of the world they have less academic  
> strength and more of the "feeling" type of attitudes.  I recall old  
> teachers talking about "head people" and "heart people" meaning there  
> was an inbalance wherein some made decisions based soley on intellect  
> and others made decisions mostly on feelings whereas we need to have  
> balance.  In other words we need to channel our feelings through  
> realistic knowledge.
>

So therefore neither "feelings" nor "intellect" alone is enough, you
need both,
together, and both are equally important, so you cannot focus on one
at the
expense of the other. That I presume is part of that "holistic"
viewpoint,
isn't it? (as "holistic" -> "dealing with the 'whole'" and the 'whole'
includes
both)

> One of the issues I often find my own classes dealing with is that of  
> the double standard of our society.  This could be a separate subject
 
> to discuss but briefly many are saying how come it is that we have so  
> many societal and corporate leaders receiving high education in ivy  
> league schools and yet there are so many examples of violations of  
> human rights, so much poverty, crime, drug and alcohol abuse,  
> injustices, etc.?  Why is it that we do not abide by our Constitution
 
> and guaranteed equal rights such as universal and compulsory education
 
> for all?
>

I know, it's peculiar. But perhaps then it is due to the lack of, as
you mention,
a truly _holistic_ education. The schools they go to may provide the
high
academic/intellectual part but less the moral part. So they have only
1 leg
when they need 2.

> So, in summary then, I can see how Dempsey could see a difference in  
> the cultures where he taught and that of where he grew up and lived in
 
> here in America.  But the also saw a different type of materialism in
 
> those other cultures.  When the two types of cultures are united I'm
 
> sure it will release a whole new stage of development in society.
>

I suppose so, esp. if the _good_ things are unified and the bad ones
are thrown away.

After all, they are different, but neither is superior.

> regards,
> doug
>
> On Nov 4, 2009, at 9:43 AM, tsuki190 wrote:
>
> > The news group is down so nothing is being posted.
>
> > What you found doesnt mean much, just what Mr, Dempsey thought after
 
> > he cam
> > e
> > home from a life of distinguished service in pioneering posts and
> > didnt get the respect
> > he thought was merited.  He is generalizing or stereotyping all
> > Americans as being a
> > certain way and that is (of course) not accurate.l
>
> > Yours,
> > Tom
>

> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 1:20 AM, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>

Douglas McAdam

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 5:51:52 PM11/24/09
to bahai...@bcca.org
Hi Mike 3,4-
I'm glad you responded cause I was wondering if the List was still
down or not. Just a dry spell I guess.
Anyways, I think there is a misunderstanding about how Dempsey
expressed his concerns over what he saw as a lack of spirituality. He
was a wonderful teacher and I know from experience there is a vast
difference in the reactions of most Americans or westerners than that
of other cultures. I saw 18 natives in the jungle in Mexico declare
in the Faith in about 30 mins. of hearing about the Baha'i Faith.
However how many may have remained active or not I do not know. I
also saw a lot of people declare here in the USA in street teaching
projects but the percentage who could be found afterwards or who
remained active was small due to several reasons, i.e. some teachers
used a sort of sales approach and some community members never did
proper consolidation work. Now we have the Institute process in place
with Ruhi study circles and there is more and better consolidation
going on. However the teaching work is still not up to par as I see
it and the only places showing some growth are the already existing
larger communities or A Clusters as they are called.

As to holistic education and its lack of, well, it can be had but it
takes some doing. I know friends who offer wonderful body and
emotional type education, good nutrition, etc. And we do have
programs that treat the spiritual level wonderfully and of course
academic education is available to most people. So it is not just
the lack of holistic education it also is the lack of quality type
holism. For example some fundamentalist Christians feel their
approach to education is holistic, maybe even Communists believe their
type is holistic but as far as I can see only the Baha'i Faith has
what might be called a higher level of holism than others simply
because we don't have prejudice in our type of religion and we also
have a body of knowledge with programs that treat body, mind and
spirit but to date this latter is not readily available since it is
still in the developmental stage. I use a program that was derived
from a 35 year indexing project years ago. That project indexed over
300,000 quotes from the Baha'i Writings and some from both the Bible
and a few from the Qur'an and then organized them by the Conditions,
Classifications and Categories of Existence named in the Writings and
further by the Sub-classifications discovered in the process and they
are all cross referenced to such. The index method is a new approach
that reduces personal interpretation of where the quotes must be
placed. Then, from this a new holistic education philosophy and core
curriculum was developed and tested and found to work. It produced
teens with Ph.Ds. But it never got totally off the ground due to
oppression from the existing education "powers that be" and its main
Education Professional was murdered. So the project has been inactive
now for many years and we are trying to reactivate this as well as
getting the Index computuerized. Actually the Index now has been
computerized but the interface software is still under development.
It is a sort of Synopticon as well as a Word index.

So, the main problem is that we need to be educated in such a fashion
as to be able to face and deal intelligently with reality in totality,
or what has been revealed by God, discovered and experienced by social
sciences from the process of the harmony of science and religion.

I can send or upload a monologue written by the designer of the Index
which was presented at a proposed World Univ. back in the 80s. It
gives a good overview of it all but that univ. also was not able to
gain funding and so it went under.

I guess this is somewhat related to the process of any new or
innovative development in society, i.e. the old world powers that be
resist anything that will challenge their power but in time
revolutions occur and we gain new development.

regards,
doug

Douglas McAdam

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 5:51:52 PM11/24/09
to bahai...@bcca.org

drgoplayer

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 1:12:10 PM11/25/09
to soc-relig...@moderators.isc.org
There are many problems with this.

!. There is no quote from Shoghi Effendi saying this. He was always
positive and supportive. Neither Shoghi Effendi nor Abdul-Baha would
ever write anything like "The Beloved Guardian said American believers


think they are spiritual but they are not."

2. It is just incorrect to characterize large groups of people this
way. It is called stereotyping.

3. Mr Dempsey was an American. Did he feel this applied to him? Not
likely.

Probably some one asked the Guardian some questions, got some complex
answers, and later remembered them as something like the above. These
are called Pilgrim's Notes and are unreliable unless specifically
approved by the purported source. Sometimes they are useful and
interesting. In this case the information is just not plausible.

If you want to see reliable information from the Guardian to the
American believers (and the American public) read Advent of Divine
Justice. Priceless Pearl is also an excellent source for the
Guardians life.

Best wishes,
Tom

Douglas McAdam

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 2:14:38 PM11/25/09
to bahai...@bcca.org
Hi Tom-
I agree with you about what the Guardian may have said but I also feel

there are quotes which say we suffer from gross materialism. Isn't
that true?
Here is but one of many quotes from the UHJ regarding American
materialism.---

"The American nation, of which the community of the Most Great
Name forms as yet a negligible and infinitesimal part, stands, indeed,

from whichever angle one observes its immediate fortunes, in grave
peril. The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly
avoidable, but mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them a

government and people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent doctrine

of absolute sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly
at variance with the needs of a world already contracted into a
neighborhood and crying out for unity, will find itself purged of its

anachronistic conceptions, and prepared to play a preponderating role,

as foretold by Abdu'l-Baha, in the hoisting of the standard of the
Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind, and in the establishment

of a world federal government on this planet. These same fiery
tribulations will not only [127] firmly weld the American nation to
its sister nations in both hemispheres, but will through their
cleansing effect, purge it thoroughly of the accumulated dross which
ingrained racial prejudice, rampant materialism, widespread
ungodliness and moral laxity have combined, in the course of
successive generations, to produce, and which have prevented her thus

far from assuming the role of world spiritual leadership forecast by
Abdu'l-Baha's unerring pen—a role which she is bound to fulfill
through travail and sorrow."

However if one will read more of what Dempsey has written one will
find he also said that the eastern culture he taught in suffered from

a different type of materialism. He acquainted their type as
superstition whereas American was technological, more emphasis on
material than spiritual. He felt that the souls in the east were more

open to the Faith, easier to teach and enroll than the western world.

The numbers of enrollments appears to demonstrate this.

regards,
doug

mike3

unread,
Dec 4, 2009, 2:24:39 PM12/4/09
to soc-relig...@moderators.isc.org
On Nov 25, 12:14 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
<snip for brevity, I don't have any specific responses to any part of
this message>

But, none of this means that if one is "American" one _can't_ be that
open,
or that one _can't_ really accept it (and instead will be merely
"thinking" one
accepts it, suggesting they can't know if they've really accepted it
(?) (doesn't
make much sense)) as the poster I quoted seemed to be hinting at.

Though I won't deny the materialism exists, I do not see it as
something that
a person cannot overcome as his post seemed to imply. So why was he
posting
that?

However I am curious about this bit you quoted:

"The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly
avoidable, but mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them
a
government and people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent
doctrine
of absolute sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly
at variance with the needs of a world already contracted into a
neighborhood and crying out for unity, will find itself purged of
its
anachronistic conceptions, and prepared to play a preponderating
role,
as foretold by Abdu'l-Baha, in the hoisting of the standard of the
Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind, and in the
establishment
of a world federal government on this planet."

So does this mean (the first part), that even if America were to go
and
willingly drop these conceptions and change how it does things, it'd
still
keep getting hit with troubles and problems like it is now and they'd
keep on increasing? Because they're "mostly inevitable and God-sent",
suggesting God would keep on sending tribulations regardless of what
we do, but that sounds like a really awful God to me... so what's
going on
here? What am I missing, because I'm sure I'm missing something.

0 new messages