Breaking the materialism part 2
mike3
I saw another post again:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/6f55baae30367f80?hl=en&dmode=source
"dear friends, you people are believers. you know Baha'u"llah has
brought
solutions to all problems. until america chooses the teachings of
Baha'u'llah many things will go wrong. i have been over the
science dept and counselor of international school bangkok with
diplomatic students from all over the world, i have been headmaster of
the lubirii senior secondary in uganda and headmaster of kabuli muslim
secondary school in uganda, built a school in tchad and bought land
for
a school in Zaire. in these schools these students want to learn,
they
walked ten and twenty miles everyday in the rain to get to school.
american students in Bangkok would tell me education is not worth it.
i
wrote many letters of recommendation to harvard and m.i.t and ivy
league
schools for foreign students. our country is very materialistic. when
i
was in school i went to add quality to my life, to know about things.
it
seems to me now in the states people go to school to make more money.
here money seems to be the motive. morgan,dfc."
Yet does this mean that I could not do as good as those from the other
countries, because I was stuck in this one of the materialism, even
though I don't agree with the materialism at all? Is there no way to
break it? Would this recommending of "foreign" students be at the
expense of the ones here, and would it hurt someone like me, who
doesn't agree with that materialism and who _doesn't_ just think it's
for "money" or some crap like that?
Douglas McAdam
I know of Mr. Morgan, a wonderful Baha'i pioneer who was honored by
the House of Justice for bringing in many souls to the Faith in his
days. But when he had to retire and came back to the USA he ran into
stiff opposition because of racism, his audaciousness and complete
reliance on Baha'u'llah and in a way he brought problems down on
himself because of being so frank. Yet much of what he wrote is quite
true in my own experience.
I would say that if you wish to do something about these conditions in
education and society then do what you can in a way that is acceptable
in education etc. I recall my mentor telling me, when in college and
rebelling against what was being taught, etc. that I should go along
with things, answer questions on a test they way they want and put in
footnotes as to how you see things. In that way they cannot fail you
for not answering properly. Also it is of vital importance to make
friends, to gradually introduce them to the Truth and not pull the
wrong out from under them until they have Baha'u'llah to hang on to.
I have been doing rehab. classes in our County Jail now for nine years
and I use a program directly derived from the Writings but it is not
religious because we changed the religious terms to pass the
separation of church and state. But I must deal with a Criminal
Justice System that is defective and even though many of the staff and
decision makers are nice people and good Christians, there traditional
views and practices are in effect furthering the increase in the
prison populations which have been overcrowded now for years. So I
must "rock the boat" in a careful manner lest they cast me out too.
While there may be many people in education, sciences, medicine,
businesses etc. whose main purpose is money and power there are also
many who are good people but whose traditional conditioning causes
them to think in limited ways. So one must take a stand and either be
part of the problem or part of the solution and in my way of thinking
and I think the beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi wrote something to
this effect in that if we try to patch up the old system it will drag
us down. We must be engaged in teaching and serving, the building of
the new system and leave the old to decline as it will and is doing
rapidly.
God bless,
doug
Suzanne
Hi Mike,
That was just one person's opinion and experiences. I don't agree at
all. Even if students do believe in materialism, if they were raised
in such a way that they really valued a good education, then they
would strive to achieve it. There are plenty western materialist
students in the top ranks of Ivy League colleges.
Is there no way to
> break it?
Belief in God and His Manifestations, prayer, immersion in the Word of
God, and service to humanity are good antidotes to pure
materialism. I believe this is especially true of belief in
Baha'u'llah because He gives us the teachings for this age we are now
living, like the awareness of the onenes and value of all humankind.
>Would this recommending of "foreign" students be at the
> expense of the ones here, and would it hurt someone like me, who
> doesn't agree with that materialism and who _doesn't_ just think it's
> for "money" or some crap like that?
Again, if the world were all following the teachings of Baha'u'llah,
there would be good universities being raised up all over the world
because Baha'u'llah taught the importance of universal education.
Many more students from America would also be studying abroad to
understand the world in they live in more. Also, it wouldn't matter
where a student came from as long as they made the grade. As
Baha'u'llah said, "The earth is but one country and mankind its
citizens."
The majority of people on earth don't yet know about Baha'u'llah, but
the teachings He brought are the spirit of the age in which we live,
and so education has become important all over the world, and people
are mixing around as never before. Little by little, day by day, we
are moving towards the social principles taught by Baha'u'llah.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
mike3
wrote:
> Hi Mike-
> I know of Mr. Morgan, a wonderful Baha'i pioneer who was honored by
> the House of Justice for bringing in many souls to the Faith in his
> days. But when he had to retire and came back to the USA he ran into
> stiff opposition because of racism, his audaciousness and complete
> reliance on Baha'u'llah and in a way he brought problems down on
> himself because of being so frank. Yet much of what he wrote is quite
> true in my own experience.
> I would say that if you wish to do something about these conditions in
> education and society then do what you can in a way that is acceptable
> in education etc. I recall my mentor telling me, when in college and
> rebelling against what was being taught, etc.
What were you rebelling against, exactly? Ideas like that God can't
exist
or something?
Thank you for your post but it does not seem to answer my questions,
namely, "does this mean that I could not do as good as those from the
other
countries, because I was stuck in this one of the materialism, even
though I don't agree with the materialism at all? Is there no way to
break it? Would this recommending of "foreign" students be at the
expense of the ones here, and would it hurt someone like me, who
doesn't agree with that materialism and who _doesn't_ just think it's
for "money" or some crap like that? "
> God bless,
> doug
> On Jul 18, 2009, at 6:09 AM, mike3 wrote:
>
> > Hi.
>
> > I saw another post again:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/6f55baae30367f8...
mike3
> On Jul 18, 11:09 am, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I suppose so. But I'm not sure how exactly this answers the question:
would *this recommending* of "foreign" students be *at the
expense of the ones here*, and would it hurt someone like me, who
*doesn't* agree with that materialism and who *doesn't* just think
it's
for "money"?
mike3
> While there may be many people in education, sciences, medicine,
> businesses etc. whose main purpose is money and power there are also
> many who are good people but whose traditional conditioning causes
> them to think in limited ways. So one must take a stand and either be
> part of the problem or part of the solution and in my way of thinking
> and I think the beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi wrote something to
> this effect in that if we try to patch up the old system it will drag
> us down. We must be engaged in teaching and serving, the building of
> the new system and leave the old to decline as it will and is doing
> rapidly.
>
However I've heard the formation of the new system _must_ be a
"gradual"
process. That suggests it must take a great deal of time, no? So
wouldn't
that mean it is impossible to build it at a rate enough to match the
"rapid"
decline of the old, and so when the old finally gives out completely,
which
would be "rapidly" approaching, there won't be enough new system to
take
over and we'll experience centuries or more of world-wide "dark" ages?
But that just seems too grim.
Finally, how can one limit or break the effects of such tradition on
one's thinking,
esp. when going into something like science, so one can make real
discoveries? All the big discoverers had to go against traditional
thinking to get their big discoveries, you know.
mike3
> businesses etc. whose main purpose is money and power there are also
> many who are good people but whose traditional conditioning causes
> them to think in limited ways. So one must take a stand and either be
> part of the problem or part of the solution and in my way of thinking
> and I think the beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi wrote something to
> this effect in that if we try to patch up the old system it will drag
> us down. We must be engaged in teaching and serving, the building of
> the new system and leave the old to decline as it will and is doing
> rapidly.
>
However I've heard that the formation of the new system must be a
"gradual"
process. That seems to imply it will take a very, very long time, i.e.
it must be
a "slow" process. That would seem to contrast with the "rapid" decline
of
old systems, and so the old system is declining faster than the new is
being
built up, and it can't be any other way, as the new-system-formation
process
_must be by nature_ a gradual one according to the quote, so then the
result
would seem then that inevitably a gap must occur, and when the old
system
gives way completely, which may be soon -- even within the century
given the
converging "emergencies" -- there won't be enough new system to take
over,
with the apparent result there would be a very long time of worldwide
"dark
ages". This sounds too grim, though. Am I missing something?
The quote I referred to is this. The emphases (*something* bits) are
mine:
"To the general character, the implications and features of this world
commonwealth, destined to emerge, sooner or later, out of the carnage,
agony, and havoc of this great world convulsion, I have already
referred
in my previous communications. Suffice it to say that this
consummation
will, *by its very nature*, be a *gradual* process, and must, as
Baha'u'llah has Himself anticipated, lead at first to the
establishment of
that Lesser Peace which the nations of the earth, as yet unconscious
of
His Revelation and yet unwittingly enforcing the general principles
which He has enunciated, will themselves establish. This momentous
and historic step, involving the reconstruction of mankind, as the
result
of the universal recognition of its oneness and wholeness, will bring
in
its wake the spiritualisation of the masses, consequent to the
recognition
of the character, and the acknowledgment of the claims, of the Faith
of
Baha'u'llah - the essential condition to that ultimate fusion of all
races,
creeds, classes, and nations which must signallise the emergence of
His
New World Order."
(The Promised Day is Come, pages 122-123)
mike3
> businesses etc. whose main purpose is money and power there are also
> many who are good people but whose traditional conditioning causes
> them to think in limited ways. So one must take a stand and either be
> part of the problem or part of the solution and in my way of thinking
> and I think the beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi wrote something to
> this effect in that if we try to patch up the old system it will drag
> us down. We must be engaged in teaching and serving, the building of
> the new system and leave the old to decline as it will and is doing
> rapidly.
>
However I've heard that the formation of the new system must be a
Suzanne
> I suppose so. But I'm not sure how exactly this answers the question:
> would *this recommending* of "foreign" students be *at the
> expense of the ones here*, and would it hurt someone like me, who
> *doesn't* agree with that materialism and who *doesn't* just think
> it's
> for "money"?
Hi Mike,
I'm sure I'm confused and not quite following your concerns. From
what I can make out, one Baha'i is saying that he recommended foreign
students to Ivy League colleges because, in his view, they were more
motivated than a lot of the materialistic kids in the U.S. It's not
like a "foreigners first" policy has been adopted by all American
universities, or the Baha'i Faith is recommending such a policy. It's
just one man's view, and one person's recommendations. So are you
asking if this one man and his recommendations will somehow be at the
expense of all U.S. students? If that is your question, then the
answer is no. Anyone who works hard and develops his or her God-given
abilities can go to universities in the U.S and succeed. If you don't
agree with materialism, that's all the better. You'll not only be
able to achieve a great deal academically, you will also have the
vision to use the skills you develop for the good of humanity. This
is something great!
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
On Jul 19, 2009, at 2:53 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Jul 18, 3:05 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> Hi Mike-
>> I know of Mr. Morgan, a wonderful Baha'i pioneer who was honored by
>> the House of Justice for bringing in many souls to the Faith in his
>> days. But when he had to retire and came back to the USA he ran into
>
>> stiff opposition because of racism, his audaciousness and complete
>> reliance on Baha'u'llah and in a way he brought problems down on
>> himself because of being so frank. Yet much of what he wrote is
>> quite
>
>> true in my own experience.
>> I would say that if you wish to do something about these conditions
>> in
>
>> education and society then do what you can in a way that is
>> acceptable
>
>> in education etc. I recall my mentor telling me, when in college and
>
>> rebelling against what was being taught, etc.
>
> What were you rebelling against, exactly? Ideas like that God can't
> exist
> or something?
Hi Mike-
Well I had a number of conflicts with what I was being fed in
college. I had a Lutheran Prof. of American History and Political
Science who pushed capitalism and the American Republic and heavily
criticized Communism and when I pointed out similarities in some of
what I read in Marxism and Communism, or that I could see greed in our
capitalism and questioned the logic of the electoral college he got
really upset. And I had problems with an atheist professor of Phil.
who was pushing Existentialism. I wrote a paper to pass his tests and
it was titled (if my old memory still serves me) Consequentalism,
Utilitarianism and Determinism and a sub-title saying CUD the Syllogy
of the Cow. And I pointed out how the cow eats and then defecates and
that manure helps other plants grow and the cow in a sense is simply
changing places with the earth and it is quite happy.
I also mentioned how a chance wind cannot blow a random pile of bricks
into a home so this creation could not have come accidentally for it
manifest complete order and organization.
Sure you can do as good and maybe even better if you conduct yourself
appropriately. We all can.
Suzanne pretty much covered this in one of her posts. For example
there is an application technique implied in many quotes in the
Writings, a method that will expose our shortcomings, our old world
conditioning and give us the knowledge to overlay them with reality as
revealed by Baha'u'llah and discovered and experienced by science or
reason. This technique is something I use in our SED project for
Troubled Youth and Adult Offenders in the Criminal Justice System
here. It teaches one how to correct all those hang-ups we grow up
with, exposing all the addictions, dysfunctional behaviors and turn
negative experiences into growth producing ones that help us acquire
virtue. While the concepts and technique come from the Writings it is
written in such a way to pass the separation of church and state rule.
But I'm sure there are other techniques in the Writings too. It is a
matter of discovering and experience and a trial and error method for
we are not infallible.
Marvelous things happen when one strives to obey the Covenant.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
Hi Mike-
Well, again we are speculating and in our present limited development
are probably more influenced by our ego prompted imagination rather
than true divine guidance.
I would say though that looking at history might help. How long did
it take for the various religions to become a major power? How long
did it take for govt. and economic revolutions to occur. Look at the
US and what has transpired in the past 300 years.
So here we are 165 years into the Baha'i Cycle of 5,000 centuries and
we can see quite a few signs of progress and also many signs of the
decline.
I am 79 and can see a lot of change since I was consciously an adult.
To break ones old habits of thinking, feeling and acting requires
acting on faith, discovering and experiencing new teachings with our
intellectual and physical powers. I wrote something about the
application technique, new knowledge, etc. that comes from the
Writings in an earlier post. Faith is our "teachability". Without
it we cannot learn. It enables us to accept an Englightener and what
is being taught but we must not accept things blindly, we must test
these new beliefs by actual experience by using our reasoning powers.
Faith can enable us to believe in an untruth as well as a truth. Our
intellect is not totally reliable because it depends on the physical
senses which we know can mislead us. So what we need is to have all
three levels of awareness unified by being directed to and by that
Overall Power of Divine Assistance which brings about unity with
diversity. Knowledge, Volition and Action is needed. We need to know
our Purpose, our condition of servitude and the proper behavior
pattern of achievement, all of which is in the Baha'i Writings.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
doug
compx2
materialism is
bad, but paying attention to material things is just practical
So can anyone give me a good example of what you mean by materialism?
If it is over-emphasis on the material comforts, then I agree,
materialism
is bad. But if paying attention to the material comforts of
everyone,
ourselves and our neighbors and our cousins and our friends is a good
thing.
--Kent
mike3
What do you mean by present "limited" development? As it suggests that
in the future, development won't be "limited", which doesn't seem to
make
sense as we always have limits.
Does this mean that "true divine guidance" would imply it must take
many
aeons?
> I would say though that looking at history might help. How long did
> it take for the various religions to become a major power? How long
> did it take for govt. and economic revolutions to occur. Look at the
> US and what has transpired in the past 300 years.
>
> So here we are 165 years into the Baha'i Cycle of 5,000 centuries and
> we can see quite a few signs of progress and also many signs of the
> decline.
>
> I am 79 and can see a lot of change since I was consciously an adult.
>
> To break ones old habits of thinking, feeling and acting requires
> acting on faith, discovering and experiencing new teachings with our
> intellectual and physical powers. I wrote something about the
> application technique, new knowledge, etc. that comes from the
> Writings in an earlier post. Faith is our "teachability". Without
> it we cannot learn. It enables us to accept an Englightener and what
> is being taught but we must not accept things blindly, we must test
> these new beliefs by actual experience by using our reasoning powers.
> Faith can enable us to believe in an untruth as well as a truth. Our
> intellect is not totally reliable because it depends on the physical
> senses which we know can mislead us. So what we need is to have all
> three levels of awareness unified by being directed to and by that
> Overall Power of Divine Assistance which brings about unity with
> diversity.
And how do we get that?
mike3
wrote:
> I wonder why I received three copies of this email.
>
Blame it on Google. The silly thing wasn't saying it sent the mail!
:)
mike3
> Mike wrote:
> > I suppose so. But I'm not sure how exactly this answers the question:
> > would *this recommending* of "foreign" students be *at the
> > expense of the ones here*, and would it hurt someone like me, who
> > *doesn't* agree with that materialism and who *doesn't* just think
> > it's
> > for "money"?
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I'm sure I'm confused and not quite following your concerns. From
> what I can make out, one Baha'i is saying that he recommended foreign
> students to Ivy League colleges because, in his view, they were more
> motivated than a lot of the materialistic kids in the U.S. It's not
> like a "foreigners first" policy has been adopted by all American
> universities, or the Baha'i Faith is recommending such a policy. It's
> just one man's view, and one person's recommendations. So are you
> asking if this one man and his recommendations will somehow be at the
> expense of all U.S. students?
I guess that was the question, and mybe also if h was recommending
such an
"expense".
> If that is your question, then the
> answer is no. Anyone who works hard and develops his or her God-given
> abilities can go to universities in the U.S and succeed. If you don't
> agree with materialism, that's all the better. You'll not only be
> able to achieve a great deal academically, you will also have the
> vision to use the skills you develop for the good of humanity. This
> is something great!
>
So the key is to get the will power to do the work, then. And one
doesn't
_have_ to have been born somewhere other than the USA to get it, and
conversely, if someone was born in the USA it doesn't automatically
imply
that they can't get, don't have, etc. that will power.
Suzanne
> I still don't believe in demonizing materialism. Excessive
> materialism is
> bad, but paying attention to material things is just practical
Hi Kent,
Paying attention to material things isn't materialism. Certainly we
all need to do that. When you add the "ism" to the word, it becomes
something different though. 'Abdu'l-Baha says: "The world for the
most part is sunk in materialism, and the blessings of the Holy Spirit
are ignored." How do you understand that dichotomy?
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
is the dictionary definition-
materialism |məˈti(ə)rēəˌlizəm|nou
n1 a tendency to consider
material possessions and physical comfort as more important than
spiritual values.2 Philosophy the doctrine that nothing exists except
matter and its movements and modifications.• the doctrine that
consciousness and will are wholly due to material agency. See also
dialectical materialism .
The meaning appears obvious and something we should avoid.
regards,
doug'
Suzanne
Mike wrote:
> So the key is to get the will power to do the work, then. And one
> doesn't
> _have_ to have been born somewhere other than the USA to get it, and
> conversely, if someone was born in the USA it doesn't automatically
> imply
> that they can't get, don't have, etc. that will power.
Hi Mike,
You're right. That is the key. The motivation can come in different
ways though. It can come from parents pushing their kids to achieve;
trying to prove that their child is better than others and the child
can take this on board and really want to prove this too. It can come
from wanting to prove to parents who don't think highly of their
child, that the child is better than they think. It could also come
from future plannng, wanting a high paying, influential job, for
instance Knowledge attained with these motivations can make a person
feel proud and arrogant and it can veil them from God and separate
them from the rest of humanity. There is an us and there is a them,
and there are people who are worthy (the ones who attain to great
knowledge) and there are people who are unworthy (those who are less
educated or achieve less academically or in the workplace) In a
sense, they can become their own God, thinking that they can achieve
anything all on their own without the assistance of God or anyone and
having no feeling about needing to serve humanity with their
knowledge. They can serve themselves only and be content with this.
But often a person comes to feel that there is something missing in
their life. It may be in mid-life and they have a mid-life crisis.
It may be earlier. It may be at the end of their lives that they are
filled with bitter regret for a life bereft of meaning. Because the
soul cannot be suppressed forever. It wants to connect us with our
Creator and to serve Him.
Motivation to gain knowledge can also come from knowing and loving God
and wanting to develop all the capacities He has given us for the
service of humanity. There is a lot of motivation to strive to excel
academically in the Baha'i Writings, both for parents and for
children. 'Abdu'l-Baha says that parents need to train their children
first in the love of God and all the virtues, and then encourage them
to strive to attain a good academic education. Always, in His
Writings, the two things go together. The knowledge and love of God
helps a person to acquire humility and love for humanity. In this
motivation, one realizes that if one has talents and capacities it is
because God has given them to us, so it's nothing to feel proud or
arrogant about. It's just a God-given responsibility to develop the
talents He gave us for the good of humanity, because if one
understands the nature of human beings, that we are all souls created
by God, one realizes that on the soul level we are all divine. So to
serve them is to serve God. This creates humility in the soul and a
feeling of oneness with all of humankind. Then the academic
achievement one makes can be focused on things that prepare us to move
this world forward in some way, and our lives in this world will have
meaning and purpose.
However, as to place -- whether one is foreign or not -- the Baha'i
Writings are clear that this doesn't matter at all. God didn't create
different countries, nationalities or races. Man did. These are all
man-made constructs and man-made prejudices. As I quoted earlier,
Baha'u'llah said, "The earth is but one country and mankind its
citizens." From a Baha'i perspective, we should love everyone and
wish for the success of people everywhere.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
Mike wrote:
> So the key is to get the will power to do the work, then. And one
> doesn't
> _have_ to have been born somewhere other than the USA to get it, and
> conversely, if someone was born in the USA it doesn't automatically
> imply
> that they can't get, don't have, etc. that will power.
Hi Mike,
Baha'u'llah said, "The earth is but one country and mankind its
Douglas McAdam
I will comment below and have snipped out portions as I saw fit.
On Jul 22, 2009, at 3:22 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Jul 20, 2:05 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> On Jul 19, 2009, at 3:00 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>
>>
>> SNIP
>> Hi Mike-
>> Well, again we are speculating and in our present limited
>> development
>
>> are probably more influenced by our ego prompted imagination rather
>> than true divine guidance.
>>
>
> What do you mean by present "limited" development? As it suggests that
> in the future, development won't be "limited", which doesn't seem to
> make
> sense as we always have limits.
At present we suffer from this rift between science and religion and
from a lack of a truly holistic education system, i.e. one that
educates body, mind and spirit realistically. For sure we will always
have limitations for perfections are endless and truth is relative not
absolute.
>
>
> Does this mean that "true divine guidance" would imply it must take
> many aeons?
I don't think so but history shows it take many centuries to affect
progressive changes. However it seems to me that with our current
Revelation knowledge that we may overcome a lot of the old resistances
of the ego. Just imagine children being born in several generations
of people who have more or less eliminated all forms of prejudice.
Every age has its problems and even our current limited education and
experience does not give us the kind of imagination needed for such
speculation into eons of time in the future. Could the cave man have
foreseen today's world?
>
>
>> I would say though that looking at history might help. How long did
>
>> it take for the various religions to become a major power? How long
>
>> did it take for govt. and economic revolutions to occur. Look at the
>
>> US and what has transpired in the past 300 years.
>>
>> So here we are 165 years into the Baha'i Cycle of 5,000 centuries and
>> we can see quite a few signs of progress and also many signs of the
>> decline.
>>
>> I am 79 and can see a lot of change since I was consciously an adult.
>>
>> To break ones old habits of thinking, feeling and acting requires
>> acting on faith, discovering and experiencing new teachings with our
>> intellectual and physical powers. I wrote something about the
>> application technique, new knowledge, etc. that comes from the
>> Writings in an earlier post. Faith is our "teachability". Without
>
>> it we cannot learn. It enables us to accept an Englightener and what
>
>> is being taught but we must not accept things blindly, we must test
>> these new beliefs by actual experience by using our reasoning powers.
>> Faith can enable us to believe in an untruth as well as a truth. Our
>
>> intellect is not totally reliable because it depends on the physical
>> senses which we know can mislead us. So what we need is to have all
>
>> three levels of awareness unified by being directed to and by that
>> Overall Power of Divine Assistance which brings about unity with
>> diversity.
>
> And how do we get that?
The Baha'i Writings say that all souls have the capacity to know and
worship God. Baha'u'llah tells us we have the twin duty of
recognizing the Manifestation and observing His commands and we cannot
have one without the other. We have been given the knowledge to unite
all peoples and live in complete harmony, peace and unity but it
depends on how well we ourselves learn and teach others. The Purpose,
Goals, Objectives, Tasks, Procedures, etc. are all there and all we
have to do is learn and obey. But, as you know it is not a simple and
easy task to completely change ones behaviors. Yet there is an
application technique revealed to us that we can learn to do just that
but for the most part most people resist anything out of their
traditional views.
>
>
>> Knowledge, Volition and Action is needed. We need to know
>> our Purpose, our condition of servitude and the proper behavior
>> pattern of achievement, all of which is in the Baha'i Writings.
This says it.
God bless,
doug
>>
>>
>
mike3
> > So the key is to get the will power to do the work, then. And one
> > doesn't
> > _have_ to have been born somewhere other than the USA to get it, and
> > conversely, if someone was born in the USA it doesn't automatically
> > imply
> > that they can't get, don't have, etc. that will power.
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> You're right. That is the key. The motivation can come in different
> ways though. It can come from parents pushing their kids to achieve;
> trying to prove that their child is better than others and the child
> can take this on board and really want to prove this too. It can come
> from wanting to prove to parents who don't think highly of their
> child, that the child is better than they think. It could also come
> from future plannng, wanting a high paying, influential job, for
> instance Knowledge attained with these motivations can make a person
> feel proud and arrogant and it can veil them from God and separate
> them from the rest of humanity.
So therefore one may be more "motivated", but the motivation may be
for all the wrong reasons.
> There is an us and there is a them,
> and there are people who are worthy (the ones who attain to great
> knowledge) and there are people who are unworthy (those who are less
> educated or achieve less academically or in the workplace) In a
> sense, they can become their own God, thinking that they can achieve
> anything all on their own without the assistance of God or anyone and
> having no feeling about needing to serve humanity with their
> knowledge.
So then they'd think that if someone didn't do a lot academically,
then they're
not "worthy" of other, non-academic things, such as love and full
status as a
fellow human being?
> They can serve themselves only and be content with this.
> But often a person comes to feel that there is something missing in
> their life. It may be in mid-life and they have a mid-life crisis.
> It may be earlier. It may be at the end of their lives that they are
> filled with bitter regret for a life bereft of meaning. Because the
> soul cannot be suppressed forever. It wants to connect us with our
> Creator and to serve Him.
>
> Motivation to gain knowledge can also come from knowing and loving God
> and wanting to develop all the capacities He has given us for the
> service of humanity.
These sound like better reasons.
> There is a lot of motivation to strive to excel
> academically in the Baha'i Writings, both for parents and for
> children. 'Abdu'l-Baha says that parents need to train their children
> first in the love of God and all the virtues, and then encourage them
> to strive to attain a good academic education. Always, in His
> Writings, the two things go together. The knowledge and love of God
> helps a person to acquire humility and love for humanity. In this
> motivation, one realizes that if one has talents and capacities it is
> because God has given them to us, so it's nothing to feel proud or
> arrogant about. It's just a God-given responsibility to develop the
> talents He gave us for the good of humanity, because if one
> understands the nature of human beings, that we are all souls created
> by God, one realizes that on the soul level we are all divine. So to
> serve them is to serve God. This creates humility in the soul and a
> feeling of oneness with all of humankind. Then the academic
> achievement one makes can be focused on things that prepare us to move
> this world forward in some way, and our lives in this world will have
> meaning and purpose.
>
But what about if the person who wants to do it to move the world
forward instead of doing it for selfish reasons was not a Baha'i?
> However, as to place -- whether one is foreign or not -- the Baha'i
> Writings are clear that this doesn't matter at all. God didn't create
> different countries, nationalities or races. Man did. These are all
> man-made constructs and man-made prejudices. As I quoted earlier,
> Baha'u'llah said, "The earth is but one country and mankind its
> citizens." From a Baha'i perspective, we should love everyone and
> wish for the success of people everywhere.
>
Does this mean you are saying that is prejudice? Does that mean that
to
do something like I mentioned in my original post may be encouraging
the
university to engage in an unfair, discriminatory practice -- even if
that is not
the intention behind the action -- and so I, for example, would get
"hit" by
this even though I didn't promote it? I hope not.
mike3
wrote:
> Hi Mike3
> I will comment below and have snipped out portions as I saw fit.
>
> On Jul 22, 2009, at 3:22 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 20, 2:05 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >> On Jul 19, 2009, at 3:00 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
> >> SNIP
> >> Hi Mike-
> >> Well, again we are speculating and in our present limited
> >> development
>
> >> are probably more influenced by our ego prompted imagination rather
> >> than true divine guidance.
>
> > What do you mean by present "limited" development? As it suggests that
> > in the future, development won't be "limited", which doesn't seem to
> > make
> > sense as we always have limits.
>
> At present we suffer from this rift between science and religion and
> from a lack of a truly holistic education system, i.e. one that
> educates body, mind and spirit realistically. For sure we will always
> have limitations for perfections are endless and truth is relative not
> absolute.
>
But how could the rift be resolved and a better education system be
built?
>
>
> > Does this mean that "true divine guidance" would imply it must take
> > many aeons?
>
> I don't think so but history shows it take many centuries to affect
> progressive changes. However it seems to me that with our current
> Revelation knowledge that we may overcome a lot of the old resistances
> of the ego. Just imagine children being born in several generations
> of people who have more or less eliminated all forms of prejudice.
> Every age has its problems and even our current limited education and
> experience does not give us the kind of imagination needed for such
> speculation into eons of time in the future. Could the cave man have
> foreseen today's world?
>
Well maybe not, but why must that great a gulf of time separate the
present from the "new system" that must replace the one we have right
now, which is declining far too quick to hold up that long? What if
anything
does "true divine guidance" say about this, or thinking based on it?
So how does one do that?
Suzanne
Mike wrote:
<<So therefore one may be more "motivated", but the motivation may be
for all the wrong reasons.>>
The motivation can be for all the wrong reasons from a spiritual
standpoint. However a lot of people end up doing very good things
just the same; doctors, lawyers, educators, etc.; who were originally
motivated by trying to prove something to someone else, and they end
up caring greatly about their work and the people who they work with.
So it may have started as an ego desire, but their service to humanity
may end up more as a soul passion, and can, in the end, lead the
person to knowing and loving God. So it's no so black and white.
There's both some ego and some soul mixed up in all the decisions most
people make.
<<So then they'd think that if someone didn't do a lot academically,
then they're
not "worthy" of other, non-academic things, such as love and full
status as a
fellow human being?>>
There are some people like this. But certainly not everyone who
achieves a great deal academically is in this category.
Suzanne wrote:
<<But what about if the person who wants to do it to move the world
forward instead of doing it for selfish reasons was not a Baha'i?>>
That's still fine. Many people on earth are being moved by the spirit
of the age which has been infused into the world by the coming of
Baha'u'llah, and they are unaware of His existence.
Mike wrote:
<<Does this mean you are saying that is prejudice? Does that mean that
to
do something like I mentioned in my original post may be encouraging
the
university to engage in an unfair, discriminatory practice -- even if
that is not
the intention behind the action -- and so I, for example, would get
"hit" by
this even though I didn't promote it? I hope not.>>
Mike, I'm not sure what you mean, but I am saying that, from the
standpoint of the Baha'i Writings people are just people. 'Abdu'l-
Baha says not to see anyone as being foreign. We should try to see
people with the eyes of oneness. Universities are not knowingly
following the Baha'i teachings. It's Baha'is who are using those
Writings to educate their own selves and hopefully to influence those
around them. But Baha'is are not there to judge others according to
our standards. Baha'is themselves are usually far from living out all
the teachings of the Faith. How could we judge anyone else as not
meeting those high standards, let alone people who haven't signed on
to and know nothing about?
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
Dear Mike3-
The same way we resolve anything, by getting more accurate information
and knowledge and teaching it to the society by individual efforts so
that in time inspired souls will create a new system. In fact we
already have a new system that was successful. It was called ANISA
but the old world order folks in power in education did all they could
to block it. There still is a group that communicates on the Internet
and who work in colleges etc. but they have to spoon feed so as to not
become ousted. The old always resists change.
>
>>
>>
>>> Does this mean that "true divine guidance" would imply it must take
>>> many aeons?
>>
>> I don't think so but history shows it take many centuries to affect
>> progressive changes. However it seems to me that with our current
>> Revelation knowledge that we may overcome a lot of the old
>> resistances
>
>> of the ego. Just imagine children being born in several generations
>
>> of people who have more or less eliminated all forms of prejudice.
>
>> Every age has its problems and even our current limited education and
>> experience does not give us the kind of imagination needed for such
>> speculation into eons of time in the future. Could the cave man have
>
>> foreseen today's world?
>>
>
> Well maybe not, but why must that great a gulf of time separate the
> present from the "new system" that must replace the one we have right
> now, which is declining far too quick to hold up that long? What if
> anything
> does "true divine guidance" say about this, or thinking based on it?
I'm not sure I can offer what "true divine guidance" says because I'm
merely a limited individual but it seems to me that there are many
quotes in the Baha'i Writings saying that our society has declined and
that is the reason the Manifestation has come. He brings us the
Divine Remedy and tells us how to impart it but being as how we are
limited souls we also must strive to understand and obey these
Commands. Some people can change rapidly and others quite slow
depending on a multitude of factors such as how bad and what type of
previous education and experience one had. We can look back in
history and see how the average span of change was in civilizations of
the past but still that depends too on how accurate is our information
on the condition of the old civilization. We can see that the
material aspects of growth come before the spiritual in many ways.
Consider the technological development of the past 100 years. It is
amazing and yet we have not yet become spiritually developed to the
degree we are utilizing that technology appropriately for the right
purpose. It appears to me that we are at a critical mass state now
and seeing signs of a rapid decline in all systems and let's hope we
don't follow the old pattern of needed a violent revolution to bring
forth the new development because there is a lot of armament in our
society today compared to the last revolution.
I believe that if it is true that we are given the capacity then it
follows that we will desire change. The young wish to become mature,
the ignorant knowledgeable etc. The soul desires growth but often the
old world conditioned ego fights against it. Sooner or later though
conditions change and each individual desires something better. At
that time they might seek enlightenment and eventually become
confronted with the new Revelation from God and then start on their
path of spiritual growth. However they also tend to apply what they
learn based on their old conditioning and it takes a lot of trial and
error to learn to rid themselves of the old and replace with the new.
And yet within the Revelation there is also an application technique
more or less suggested in several quotes. For example we read where
one can only attain an object through knowledge, volition and action.
And we learn that there are three ways to learn, i.e., by Discovery,
Experience and Revelation. And there are teachings telling us what
our purpose is, what powers we have to achieve this purpose, and a
suggested behavior pattern (obedience to the Covenant) that will
enable us to learn how to live properly and help others to live well
too. It is a matter of understanding the reality of who we are, to
what purpose we exist, how to live our lives and get along with
others, to paraphrase a quote from the Universal House of Justice
letter in Nov. 19, 1974. So we must learn reality and then realize
that our entire lifes experiences, all our thinking, feeling and
action (reactions) are stored in our Cumulative Consciousness which
then effects how we current perceive, feel and act to whatever
confronts us in our daily lives, moments by moment, reaction by
reaction. We have to expose these hang-ups and bad behaviors to
reality and experiment with the new teachings and put a more realistic
memory into our cumulative consciousness. By changing our perceptions
we change how we feel and that prompts new actions. However first we
must admit that we need help and open ourselves up to the necessary re-
education process. There is more to all this but emails are not
sufficient means for deeper research. However I will say that we got
here today moment by moment, reaction by reaction as we were exposed
to knowledge and information presented to us by parents, teachers,
street experiences, the media, schools etc. and we will grow out of
these irrational experiences and knowledge in the same manner, moment
by moment, reaction by reaction as we take in new holistic knowledge
that will improve our body, mind and spiritual conditions.
>>
>>>> Knowledge, Volition and Action is needed. We need to know
>>>> our Purpose, our condition of servitude and the proper behavior
>>>> pattern of achievement, all of which is in the Baha'i Writings.
>>
>> This says it.
>> God bless,
>> doug
>>
Yes, this is it but still we must learn the details, the how to etc.
and it is a process with maybe some giant leaps of growth here and
there but basically each stimulus that comes our way is something we
need to investigate in the light of reality and not simply
automatically react as we are conditioned to do. We feel something
about what we are perceiving and that should give us a signal to get
into another level and look at the stimulus with our intellect and
imagine a proper reaction before taking any but if that does not seem
to solve the problem them we get prompted to get upstairs to another
level of faith and intuition and pray for assistance and tune into
inspirations and then use our powers to take action and learn from the
results. We should not take action based soley on how we feel. Often
taking harmful chemicals like alcohol and drugs feel good but after a
spell we then find out how they have hurt us. On the other hand we
often refuse things that don't feel good which are good for us, like
certain foods or medicines. We have to be able to look into the
future of things and examine things holistically rather than simply
reacting from our lower nature and old world conditioning.
God bless,
doug
>>
>
>
Douglas McAdam
On Jul 25, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Suzanne wrote:
> Mike, I'm not sure what you mean, but I am saying that, from the
> standpoint of the Baha'i Writings people are just people. 'Abdu'l-
> Baha says not to see anyone as being foreign. We should try to see
> people with the eyes of oneness. Universities are not knowingly
> following the Baha'i teachings. It's Baha'is who are using those
> Writings to educate their own selves and hopefully to influence those
> around them. But Baha'is are not there to judge others according to
> our standards. Baha'is themselves are usually far from living out all
> the teachings of the Faith. How could we judge anyone else as not
> meeting those high standards, let alone people who haven't signed on
> to and know nothing about?
Hi Suzanne and Mike-
I agree with you but also wanted to sort of add another way to think
about this.
What I have learned from my own study of the Baha'i Writings is that
God sends His Manifestation at a time when mankind needs additional
education in order to grow to a new level. It is a manifestation of
the Holy Spirit to a new degree that we have the capacity to receive
and utilize. So it seems that Baha'u'llah has stocked the "cosmic
consciousness" with this new Revelation and sensitive souls everywhere
tune into in and are inspired to make changes, inventions, etc.
However Baha'is who have accepted Baha'u'llah and His Revelation and
who are engaged in the process have a more direct access to the
Writings because in order to grasp and understand how to apply these
new teachings call for one to accept and then strive to obey. What
others feel might be divine guidance is maybe their own ego-prompted
imagination and thus what they prescribe for others, say like
education, may not be what Baha'u'llah totally had in mind for us.
This is true too for Baha'is who feel they know what Baha'u'llah wants
for mankind. So we must do what Baha'u'llah says, such as recognizing
Him and striving to obey His commands. We can only do this according
to how much we understand of the knowledge and how best to apply it
and in many cases it is simply trial and error. However when we
observe the facts about our current education and systems that bring
about order and organization in society, the new understanding we have
from inspirations from the new Revelation, whether direct or indirect,
we can easily see the old needs a complete overhaul. However in many
cases those who see the problems and have ideas on how to fix them
often do not see the holistic conditions and thus when they try to
apply a fix it creates even more problems. So anyone who has access
to the divine knowledge in the new Revelation will have a much
different idea of how best to bring about changes in these old
systems. For one thing we are told that it is best not to try to fix
them because they can easily drag us down too. We must do our best to
teach the new. So while we don't judge others we do judge the social
conditions which to me seems rather simple in that most people I know
can readily see the harmful effects of negative behaviors on
civilization. Most people today accept the fact that we need to
eliminate all forms of prejudices. So in a way we are judging
behaviors as needing change but we don't just the spiritual condition,
the souls, we only judge the behaviors.
I recall when in college there was a Hindu guru type scholar who was
giving lectures on tour and he said that positive thinking is not
overlooking negativity but rather acknowledging it and doing something
about it.
regards,
doug
mike3
wrote:
> On Jul 24, 2009, at 2:33 PM, mike3 wrote:
will say that we got
mature,
> the ignorant knowledgeable etc. The soul desires growth but often the
> old world conditioned ego fights against it.
But how does one know if this "old world conditioned ego" is fighting
against
the growth?
<snips>
> We can see that the
> material aspects of growth come before the spiritual in many ways.
> Consider the technological development of the past 100 years. It is
> amazing and yet we have not yet become spiritually developed to the
> degree we are utilizing that technology appropriately for the right
> purpose. It appears to me that we are at a critical mass state now
> and seeing signs of a rapid decline in all systems and let's hope we
> don't follow the old pattern of needed a violent revolution to bring
> forth the new development because there is a lot of armament in our
> society today compared to the last revolution.
Does this mean that more spiritual growth might not be a very long
ways
off then?
<snips>
> here today moment by moment, reaction by reaction as we were exposed
> to knowledge and information presented to us by parents, teachers,
> street experiences, the media, schools etc. and we will grow out of
> these irrational experiences and knowledge in the same manner, moment
> by moment, reaction by reaction as we take in new holistic knowledge
> that will improve our body, mind and spiritual conditions.
>
Where does one get this "new holistic knowledge" anyway?
Douglas McAdam
On Jul 27, 2009, at 3:05 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Jul 26, 9:26 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 2:33 PM, mike3 wrote:
> <snip stuff, I have no more comments or questions on it> However I
> will say that we got
>> I believe that if it is true that we are given the capacity then it
> .. follows that we will desire change. The young wish to become
> mature,
>> the ignorant knowledgeable etc. The soul desires growth but often
>> the
>> old world conditioned ego fights against it.
>
> But how does one know if this "old world conditioned ego" is fighting
> against
> the growth?
Hi Mike3-
The same way we know anything. By observation based on knowledge of
the human being, our purpose, how to live our lives and get along with
others, facts or knowledge that has been revealed to us by religions,
discovered And experienced by those who long for knowledge
holistically. Once we understand our nature, our purpose, powers,
behavior and life pattern we then can better analyze and modify
behaviors. The knowing and loving powers is showing in all levels of
Creation such as Innate or Instinctual power of Senses and Selfish
Love in the Animal nature (our human body) for Survival at all Cost,
and in augmentative degrees upward in our Human Intellect and
Altruistic Love for survival with altruism, and in our Higher Nature
as Faith/Intuition and Selfless love for the acquisition of Virtues.
By understanding our overall nature and its purpose and powers, its
proper behavior pattern we then can consciously decide to chose what
is best to achieve this purpose but without this knowledge we will act
like beasts and try to rationalize our evil or egotistical ways. It
is the ego that causes these problems, the corporation heads whose
only purpose if profit at all costs, even to throw away human beings
or pollute the natural resources is certainly ego related.
In general negativity is from the ego and positive and objectivity is
from the higher nature.
By having proper knowledge like I mentioned and knowing what our
morals and ethics should be, i.e. in other words knowing the Covenant
of God for this day, we then have a standard by which to evaluate
behavior.
>
>
> <snips>
>> We can see that the
>> material aspects of growth come before the spiritual in many ways.
>> Consider the technological development of the past 100 years. It is
>> amazing and yet we have not yet become spiritually developed to the
>> degree we are utilizing that technology appropriately for the right
>> purpose. It appears to me that we are at a critical mass state now
>> and seeing signs of a rapid decline in all systems and let's hope we
>> don't follow the old pattern of needed a violent revolution to bring
>> forth the new development because there is a lot of armament in our
>> society today compared to the last revolution.
>
> Does this mean that more spiritual growth might not be a very long
> ways
> off then?
Again, it depends on how rapidly those in the know become themselves
transformed by teaching others and living by the very necessary
behaviors revealed to us by God in order to advance the stage of unity
from nationalism to internationalism and eventually on to universal
unity. I would imagine that there might be researchers who can look
back at growth and then ahead to the future based on mathematical
statistics and formulae.
>
>
> <snips>
>> here today moment by moment, reaction by reaction as we were exposed
>> to knowledge and information presented to us by parents, teachers,
>> street experiences, the media, schools etc. and we will grow out of
>> these irrational experiences and knowledge in the same manner, moment
>> by moment, reaction by reaction as we take in new holistic knowledge
>> that will improve our body, mind and spiritual conditions.
>>
>
> Where does one get this "new holistic knowledge" anyway?
When one harmonizes faith and reason, science and religion one then
has an overall or more holistic view of reality in general. However
to be specific one must independently search for truth and reality and
examine what is available. Take, for example, each level such as the
physical, intellectual and spiritual and think about where you can
gain knowledge of each. We go to science and discover knowledge about
the phenomenal world and also in social sciences for knowledge about
the human intellect, emotions, psychology, etc. and we study the Holy
Books of Religions to determine proper behavior or morals and
ethics. And I think we need to keep in mind that all knowledge is
supposed to help us realize our purpose to know and worship God, to
acquire virtues, to establish love and unity in the world and advance
civilization.
For myself, my search seems to open doors and I met certain souls that
gave me knowledge here and there or who advised me where to go, what
to investigate, etc. I think now that I look back that what happens
is that if it is true that God created us to know and worship Him and
to be servants to Him and humanity then we have the capacity to do so
and He also has revealed all the needed knowledge and behavior pattern
enabling us to realize this purpose and what we need to do is accept
Him, His Revelators and what has been Revealed and then test this
knowledge by using our senses and intellect. In this way all our
levels, powers, etc. are in unity and the result will be to gain a
holistic perspective of things. I look back now and realize I missed
out on receiving such knowledge because of making a critical judgement
of the knowledge giver. I recall meeting old women who stumbled in
speech, using slang, who did not have a good appearance and yet what
they told me later sunk in. One must be truly open to new things.
So in summary then if one is sincerely seeking truth and reality one
can turn to God, pray and get inspired to take action and learn from
Discovery, Experience and Revelation. Just like the Beloved Master
said in the following -
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“The attainment of any object is conditioned upon knowledge, volition
and action. Unless these three conditions are forthcoming there is no
execution or accomplishment.” ( FWU p.101)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God bless,
doug
mike3
> Mike wrote:
>
> <<So therefore one may be more "motivated", but the motivation may be
> for all the wrong reasons.>>
>
> The motivation can be for all the wrong reasons from a spiritual
> standpoint. However a lot of people end up doing very good things
> just the same; doctors, lawyers, educators, etc.; who were originally
> motivated by trying to prove something to someone else, and they end
> up caring greatly about their work and the people who they work with.
> So it may have started as an ego desire, but their service to humanity
> may end up more as a soul passion, and can, in the end, lead the
> person to knowing and loving God. So it's no so black and white.
So even if the original decision was for the wrong reasons, they can
still
change and do further work for the right reasons.
No, it isn't black and white, nor did I say it was, I was just
mentioning
one possibility.
> There's both some ego and some soul mixed up in all the decisions most
> people make.
>
> <<So then they'd think that if someone didn't do a lot academically,
> then they're
> not "worthy" of other, non-academic things, such as love and full
> status as a
> fellow human being?>>
>
> There are some people like this. But certainly not everyone who
> achieves a great deal academically is in this category.
>
Of course not.
> Suzanne wrote:
>
> <<But what about if the person who wants to do it to move the world
> forward instead of doing it for selfish reasons was not a Baha'i?>>
>
> That's still fine. Many people on earth are being moved by the spirit
> of the age which has been infused into the world by the coming of
> Baha'u'llah, and they are unaware of His existence.
>
How could they be made aware of the existence of the messenger,
anyway?
> Mike wrote:
>
> <<Does this mean you are saying that is prejudice? Does that mean that
> to
> do something like I mentioned in my original post may be encouraging
> the
> university to engage in an unfair, discriminatory practice -- even if
> that is not
> the intention behind the action -- and so I, for example, would get
> "hit" by
> this even though I didn't promote it? I hope not.>>
>
> Mike, I'm not sure what you mean, but I am saying that, from the
> standpoint of the Baha'i Writings people are just people. 'Abdu'l-
> Baha says not to see anyone as being foreign. We should try to see
> people with the eyes of oneness. Universities are not knowingly
> following the Baha'i teachings. It's Baha'is who are using those
> Writings to educate their own selves and hopefully to influence those
> around them. But Baha'is are not there to judge others according to
> our standards. Baha'is themselves are usually far from living out all
> the teachings of the Faith. How could we judge anyone else as not
> meeting those high standards, let alone people who haven't signed on
> to and know nothing about?
>
I guess what I was asking was just whether the "encouraging" of the
universities to accept these "foreign" students would cause them to
gloss over possibly good "domestic" ones.
It was not meant to be a judgment of the person, however.
mike3
wrote:
Is one of the biggest things a person must do is overcome and reduce
this "ego" as much as possible?
> and thus what they prescribe for others, say like
> education, may not be what Baha'u'llah totally had in mind for us.
However one can't dismiss it entirely either, as it may still
have some of the light in it, and any light should be encouraged.
> This is true too for Baha'is who feel they know what Baha'u'llah wants
> for mankind. So we must do what Baha'u'llah says, such as recognizing
> Him and striving to obey His commands. We can only do this according
> to how much we understand of the knowledge and how best to apply it
> and in many cases it is simply trial and error. However when we
> observe the facts about our current education and systems that bring
> about order and organization in society, the new understanding we have
> from inspirations from the new Revelation, whether direct or indirect,
> we can easily see the old needs a complete overhaul. However in many
> cases those who see the problems and have ideas on how to fix them
> often do not see the holistic conditions and thus when they try to
> apply a fix it creates even more problems.
What would be an example of these "holistic conditions" that create
some problem?
> So anyone who has access
> to the divine knowledge in the new Revelation will have a much
> different idea of how best to bring about changes in these old
> systems. For one thing we are told that it is best not to try to fix
> them because they can easily drag us down too. We must do our best to
> teach the new.
So how does one go about building new systems, then?
> So while we don't judge others we do judge the social
> conditions which to me seems rather simple in that most people I know
> can readily see the harmful effects of negative behaviors on
> civilization. Most people today accept the fact that we need to
> eliminate all forms of prejudices. So in a way we are judging
> behaviors as needing change but we don't just the spiritual condition,
> the souls, we only judge the behaviors.
>
Well I was referring to the actions, not the person.
Douglas McAdam
I would say this is the entire purpose the Manifestation comes to us.
He brings us the Divine Assistance and the needed knowledge to help us
become free of our egos.
>
>
>> and thus what they prescribe for others, say like
>> education, may not be what Baha'u'llah totally had in mind for us.
>
> However one can't dismiss it entirely either, as it may still
> have some of the light in it, and any light should be encouraged.
No we cannot dismiss it entirely. What we should do is check it out
by researching both science and religion and still we must then take
action and realize that we are not infallible and so our learning
pattern is one of trial and error.
>
>
>> This is true too for Baha'is who feel they know what Baha'u'llah
>> wants
>
>> for mankind. So we must do what Baha'u'llah says, such as
>> recognizing
>
>> Him and striving to obey His commands. We can only do this according
>
>> to how much we understand of the knowledge and how best to apply it
>> and in many cases it is simply trial and error. However when we
>> observe the facts about our current education and systems that bring
>> about order and organization in society, the new understanding we
>> have
>
>> from inspirations from the new Revelation, whether direct or
>> indirect,
>
>> we can easily see the old needs a complete overhaul. However in many
>
>> cases those who see the problems and have ideas on how to fix them
>> often do not see the holistic conditions and thus when they try to
>> apply a fix it creates even more problems.
>
> What would be an example of these "holistic conditions" that create
> some problem?
The holistic (whole or holy) conditions do not create the problem, it
is the individuals who lack a holistic view of reality that creates
the problem. For example they try to fix the economy but do so in
ways that promote their own power or to keep their political seats.
Take for example the oil industries influence on the economy, the
environment and politics. Even though we know that burning fossil
fuels creates a lot of problems the politicians also are influenced by
big oil business who provide them with campaign funds, etc. Or in my
case in the criminal justice system the jail is for the protection of
the community but they rebel against spending money on rehab and so
the felons return to society in the same bad condition and repeat the
crimes.
>
>
>> So anyone who has access
>> to the divine knowledge in the new Revelation will have a much
>> different idea of how best to bring about changes in these old
>> systems. For one thing we are told that it is best not to try to fix
>
>> them because they can easily drag us down too. We must do our best
>> to
>
>> teach the new.
>
> So how does one go about building new systems, then?
Well, for Baha'is we have the defined purpose, goals and instructions
on how to proceed even to the description and how to operate the
needed institution. We have an Administrative Order but we need to
teach and enroll new believers to reach a point where the majority of
society are Baha'is and then the New World Commonwealth can be
completed and the unification of all peoples and nations will be
accomplished.
>
>
>> So while we don't judge others we do judge the social
>> conditions which to me seems rather simple in that most people I know
>> can readily see the harmful effects of negative behaviors on
>> civilization. Most people today accept the fact that we need to
>> eliminate all forms of prejudices. So in a way we are judging
>> behaviors as needing change but we don't just the spiritual
>> condition,
>
>> the souls, we only judge the behaviors.
>>
>
> Well I was referring to the actions, not the person.
OK, good.
regards,
doug
mike3
wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2009, at 3:46 PM, mike3 wrote:
I don't have any questions now. I just wanted to clarify one bit:
> > What would be an example of these "holistic conditions" that create
> > some problem?
>
> The holistic (whole or holy) conditions do not create the problem, it
> is the individuals who lack a holistic view of reality that creates
> the problem. For example they try to fix the economy but do so in
> ways that promote their own power or to keep their political seats.
> Take for example the oil industries influence on the economy, the
> environment and politics. Even though we know that burning fossil
> fuels creates a lot of problems the politicians also are influenced by
> big oil business who provide them with campaign funds, etc. Or in my ~¤x
> case in the criminal justice system the jail is for the protection of
> the community but they rebel against spending money on rehab and so
> the felons return to society in the same bad condition and repeat the
> crimes.
>
What I mean is the conditions that are causing the problem, viewed
from a holistic point of view.
mike3
wrote:
<snip>
Thank you for the response here. I don't have any more questions on
this
one.
mike3
I take back that bit about not having any more questions :) I just
noticed
this.
Does this mean that "imagination" therefore must be gotten rid of and
is
useless, because to use it involves "ego" (you said it is "ego
prompted")
and nothing good can come from ego?
Suzanne
Suzanne wrote:
>> The motivation can be for all the wrong reasons from a spiritual
>> standpoint. However a lot of people end up doing very good things
>> just the same; doctors, lawyers, educators, etc.; who were originally
>> motivated by trying to prove something to someone else, and they end
>> up caring greatly about their work and the people who they work with.
>> So it may have started as an ego desire, but their service to humanity
>> may end up more as a soul passion, and can, in the end, lead the
>> person to knowing and loving God. So it's no so black and white.
further work for the right reasons.
Mike wrote:
>
> No, it isn't black and white, nor did I say it was, I was just
> mentioning
> one possibility.
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that you, personally, were implying it was
black and white. I was just speaking in general, and giving more of
the nuances to the original points I tried to make.
> How could they be made aware of the existence of the messenger,
> anyway?
Through teaching and through public proclamation. However, it is a
process, and, unfortunately, it takes time.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
>>. What
> > >> others feel might be divine guidance is maybe their own ego-prompted
> > >> imagination
Mike wrote:
> Does this mean that "imagination" therefore must be gotten rid of and
> is
> useless, because to use it involves "ego" (you said it is "ego
> prompted")
> and nothing good can come from ego?
Hi Mike,
I know you are writing to Doug, but I hope you don't mind if I respond
as well. Imagination can be understood in different ways. When you
are talking about creative imagination it is a wonderful thing, and it
is one of the aspects of the soul of man. It is through imagination
that we make all the discoveries in sciences and arts and these are
very much encouraged in the Baha'i Writings.
Here's what 'Abdu'l-Baha says about art, which is, of course, an
expression of creative imagination:
"All Art is a gift of the Holy Spirit. When this light shines through
the mind of a musician, it manifests itself in beautiful harmonies.
Again, shining through the mind of a poet, it is seen in fine poetry
and poetic prose. When the Light of the Sun of Truth inspires the mind
of a painter, he produces marvellous pictures. These gifts are
fulfilling their highest purpose, when showing forth the praise of
God."
(Compilations, The Importance of the Arts in Promoting the Faith)
So there isn't a problem with imagination, per se. It's a gift of
God. However, it's the sort of "vain imaginings" which separates
people from other people (i.e. prejudices) or sets up false gods in
their minds (rampant materialism, intolerant religion, etc.) that is
the problem. And this sort of imagination is ego based. In other
words, it comes from our lower nature and not from our spiritual
nature. It doesn't help people to progress but keeps them stuck in
counter-productive ways of interacting with others.
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
Hi Mike3-
I'm still not quite sure what you mean by conditions but I will take a
stab at answering.
It is not stressful conditions that cause our problems but rather how
we deal with stress that causes us problems. Stress, in fact all
tests and difficulties in life, is what helps us grow and develop but
we need to learn to deal with them properly. Without proper holistic
knowledge (body, mind and soul) we run the risk of acting
automatically from our old world upbringing and conditioning. The
Manifestations come to bring us the proper knowledge and behavior
patterns in which to lift us up from our materialist conditioning into
the spiritual realm of life. Without the spiritual knowledge we will
use our intellects to rationalize behaviors unworthy of man. We try
to justify wars, crimes, addictions, etc. Without virtues we will
become worse than animals.
However we also must consider conditions that we have imposed on
ourselves. My understanding of our Baha'i Writings indicates there
are two types of tests, i.e. one that is God given and only He knows
our capacity and thus He will not give us a test we cannot pass, and
the other is a self-imposed test that can be most dangerous because we
do not know our capacity. For example an addict is crazy to hang
around with others in a bar and thinking he will never drink. This is
standard advice the therapist will give an addict, to change people,
places and things so they will have less conditions to trigger use of
drugs etc.
So we must deal with natural, social and other conditions, some of
which we created ourselves, such as wars, poverty, creating poor
housing, bad foods, bad education, etc. We have to deal with the poor
upbringing, the disunity, the lack of a commonly agreed upon set of
morals and ethics in society, the conflict between what we have
learned and experienced and what was taught us which is in our
conscience and gained from parents, media, etc.
A major problem I must deal with is Inmates in my classes who have
committed felonies and who have children and they want to change but
when they are released nobody will hire them and in order to take care
of their children they will go back to dealing drugs and other crimes
and rationalize these actions by the fact that they need to take care
of the family. It is most difficult for someone who does not have
proper holistic education to learn how to deal with faith and take
appropriate action. Sure they pray but then they are faced with what
exists in society that appears to them to be their prayers are
unanswered when in reality the prayer has been answered but they
cannot see it for they are limited by their previous education.
>
Hope this helps,
doug
Douglas McAdam
On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Suzanne wrote:
>> How could they be made aware of the existence of the messenger,
>> anyway?
>
> Through teaching and through public proclamation. However, it is a
> process, and, unfortunately, it takes time.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Suzanne
Hi Suzanne-
I just wanted to add another thought for Mike3 who asked the question
above.
There is a quote in the Bible about "knock and the door shall
open" (paraphrasing) and we as Baha'is have learned that all prayers
are answered but the answer may or may not appear to us immediately
because of the Timetable of God being different than ours, or the fact
that there is an quote as follows which explains this better--
Question.—Is the predestination which is mentioned in the Holy Books a
decreed thing? If so, is not the effort to avoid it useless?
Destiny (3:7)
Answer.—Fate is of two kinds: one is decreed, and the other is
conditional or impending. The decreed fate is that which cannot change
or be altered, and conditional fate is that which may occur. So, for
this lamp, the decreed fate is that the oil burns and will be
consumed; therefore, its eventual extinction is a decree which it is
impossible to alter or to change because it is a decreed fate. In the
same way, in the body of man a power of life has been created, and as
soon as it is destroyed and ended, the body will certainly be
decomposed, so when the oil in this lamp is burnt and finished, the
lamp will undoubtedly become extinguished. But conditional fate may be
likened to this: while there is still oil, a violent wind blows on the
lamp, which extinguishes it. This is a conditional fate. It is wise to
avoid it, to protect oneself from it, to be cautious and circumspect.
But the decreed fate, which is like the finishing of the oil in the
lamp, cannot be altered, changed nor delayed. It must happen; it is
inevitable that the lamp will become extinguished.
So we pray and then meditate and contemplate and inspiration will come
and we take action but many times the action does not seem to produce
the desired results for in a way we have imagined the answer instead
of letting God decide the best answer and when the answer does not fit
our own we think God is not answering us. It takes faith to "just
know" we are being answered and directed. I recall my own search and
desperate prayers for help and taking action and finding stumbling
blocks and then one day I met someone who had what I needed but at
first she did not look or act like someone in answer to my prayer but
she was.
I truly believe now, after all these years that if a person is
sincerely seeking Truth, the Manifestation, etc. and prays and takes
action the way will be shown and one must remain open and not allow
ones old world hang ups and conditions to block one's perception.
One thing is for sure and that is we can see what behavior has landed
us in trouble and so we know we cannot repeat that action and we must
search for a new behavior pattern.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
On Jul 30, 2009, at 2:57 PM, mike3 wrote:
>> I would say this is the entire purpose the Manifestation comes to us.
>> He brings us the Divine Assistance and the needed knowledge to help
>> us
>
>> become free of our egos.
>>
>
> I take back that bit about not having any more questions :) I just
> noticed
> this.
>
> Does this mean that "imagination" therefore must be gotten rid of and
> is
> useless, because to use it involves "ego" (you said it is "ego
> prompted")
> and nothing good can come from ego?
Hi Mike3
I think Suzanne answered this adequately and so I will just add a wee
bit.
Most of the times when I consider things I cannot seem to help
thinking about our Purpose in life because after al if we do not know
the purpose of a thing then we are out of touch with its reality. So
I believe, and I think we can make a strong case for it from the
Writings, that our powers are for the purpose of realizing that
overall purpose of life that God has revealed to us. So we need what
our senses report in the phenomenal realm and our power of imagination
to imagine a proper behavior pattern and our intellectual powers to
understand and carry out the plans of achievement. Indeed it appears
to me that if we are to have love and unity in the world then all our
powers must be focused on that Purpose so we achieve it in ourselves
and outwardly we can make it happen in our sciences and religions, the
two most potent powers in society.
peace,
doug
mike3
wrote:
> On Jul 30, 2009, at 2:57 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
>
>
> >> I would say this is the entire purpose the Manifestation comes to us.
> >> He brings us the Divine Assistance and the needed knowledge to help
> >> us
>
> >> become free of our egos.
>
> > I take back that bit about not having any more questions :) I just
> > noticed
> > this.
>
> > Does this mean that "imagination" therefore must be gotten rid of and
> > is
> > useless, because to use it involves "ego" (you said it is "ego
> > prompted")
> > and nothing good can come from ego?
>
> Hi Mike3
> I think Suzanne answered this adequately and so I will just add a wee
> bit.
> Most of the times when I consider things I cannot seem to help
> thinking about our Purpose in life because after al if we do not know
> I believe, and I think we can make a strong case for it from the
> Writings, that our powers are for the purpose of realizing that
> overall purpose of life that God has revealed to us. So we need what
> our senses report in the phenomenal realm and our power of imagination
> to imagine a proper behavior pattern and our intellectual powers to
> understand and carry out the plans of achievement. Indeed it appears
> to me that if we are to have love and unity in the world then all our
> powers must be focused on that Purpose so we achieve it in ourselves
> and outwardly we can make it happen in our sciences and religions, the
> two most potent powers in society.
>
Thank you both for both of your answers. I don't have any more
questions
about them.
I guess there's a large difference between just "imagination" and
"ego-prompted imagination". Note that one has that bit about "ego-
prompted"
on it, the other doesn't. Not all imagination must be "ego-prompted".
mike3
wrote:
> On Jul 30, 2009, at 2:53 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 29, 7:44 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >> On Jul 29, 2009, at 3:46 PM, mike3 wrote:
> > <snip>
> > I don't have any questions now. I just wanted to clarify one bit:
>
> >>> What would be an example of these "holistic conditions" that create
> >>> some problem?
>
> >> The holistic (whole or holy) conditions do not create the problem, it
> >> is the individuals who lack a holistic view of reality that creates
> >> the problem. For example they try to fix the economy but do so in
> >> ways that promote their own power or to keep their political seats.
> >> Take for example the oil industries influence on the economy, the
> >> environment and politics. Even though we know that burning fossil
> >> fuels creates a lot of problems the politicians also are influenced
> >> by
>
> >> my ~¤x
>
> >> case in the criminal justice system the jail is for the protection of
> >> the community but they rebel against spending money on rehab and so
> >> the felons return to society in the same bad condition and repeat the
> >> crimes.
>
> > What I mean is the conditions that are causing the problem, viewed
> > from a holistic point of view.
>
> Hi Mike3-
> I'm still not quite sure what you mean by conditions but I will take a
>
> stab at answering.
> It is not stressful conditions that cause our problems but rather how
>
> we deal with stress that causes us problems.
By "conditions" I mean whatever state of things is creating or
generating
the problem.
> Stress, in fact all
> tests and difficulties in life, is what helps us grow and develop but
>
> we need to learn to deal with them properly. Without proper holistic
>
> knowledge (body, mind and soul) we run the risk of acting
> automatically from our old world upbringing and conditioning. The
> Manifestations come to bring us the proper knowledge and behavior
> patterns in which to lift us up from our materialist conditioning into
>
> the spiritual realm of life. Without the spiritual knowledge we will
>
> use our intellects to rationalize behaviors unworthy of man. We try
> to justify wars, crimes, addictions, etc. Without virtues we will
> become worse than animals.
> However we also must consider conditions that we have imposed on
> ourselves. My understanding of our Baha'i Writings indicates there
> are two types of tests, i.e. one that is God given and only He knows
> our capacity and thus He will not give us a test we cannot pass, and
> the other is a self-imposed test that can be most dangerous because we
>
> do not know our capacity.
And so *we* could very well give ourselves a test that we could not
pass.
> For example an addict is crazy to hang
> around with others in a bar and thinking he will never drink. This is
>
> standard advice the therapist will give an addict, to change people,
> places and things so they will have less conditions to trigger use of
>
> drugs etc.
> So we must deal with natural, social and other conditions, some of
> which we created ourselves, such as wars, poverty, creating poor
> housing, bad foods, bad education, etc. We have to deal with the poor
>
> upbringing, the disunity, the lack of a commonly agreed upon set of
> morals and ethics in society, the conflict between what we have
> learned and experienced and what was taught us which is in our
> conscience and gained from parents, media, etc.
>
> A major problem I must deal with is Inmates in my classes who have
> committed felonies and who have children and they want to change but
> when they are released nobody will hire them and in order to take care
>
> of their children they will go back to dealing drugs and other crimes
>
> and rationalize these actions by the fact that they need to take care
>
> of the family.
So what would have to change so that this does not happen?
> It is most difficult for someone who does not have
> proper holistic education to learn how to deal with faith and take
> appropriate action.
Where can such a thing be gotten?
mike3
wrote:
> On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Suzanne wrote:
>
> >> How could they be made aware of the existence of the messenger,
> >> anyway?
>
> > Through teaching and through public proclamation. However, it is a
> > process, and, unfortunately, it takes time.
>
> > Best wishes,
>
> > Suzanne
>
> Hi Suzanne-
> I just wanted to add another thought for Mike3 who asked the question
>
> above.
>
> There is a quote in the Bible about "knock and the door shall
> open" (paraphrasing) and we as Baha'is have learned that all prayers
> are answered but the answer may or may not appear to us immediately
> because of the Timetable of God being different than ours, or the fact
>
> that there is an quote as follows which explains this better--
I'm not sure what the point is that is trying to be made with the
quote.
What's up with it?
Douglas McAdam
Hi Mike3-
OK, but still life is all about learning to turn stressful situations
(conditions) into spiritually growth producing opportunities. We are
always faced with stressful situations. However we also can bring
stress on ourselves by not making proper choices. For example we take
a natural plant and use it for mind altering purposes and that goes
against our nature and then we become addicted to the pleasure and
that condition changes our entire way of life but it was not nature
that created it, it was our own choice. Or take the matter of wars or
products that harm the environments, etc. And a prime example was the
New Orleans flood which was the result of nature acting on a condition
that was man made, i.e. building a city on a poor piece of land and
then failure to build proper flood control measures.
>
>
>> Stress, in fact all
>> tests and difficulties in life, is what helps us grow and develop but
>>
>> we need to learn to deal with them properly. Without proper holistic
>
>>
>> knowledge (body, mind and soul) we run the risk of acting
>> automatically from our old world upbringing and conditioning. The
>> Manifestations come to bring us the proper knowledge and behavior
>> patterns in which to lift us up from our materialist conditioning
>> into
>
>>
>> the spiritual realm of life. Without the spiritual knowledge we will
>
>>
>> use our intellects to rationalize behaviors unworthy of man. We try
>
>> to justify wars, crimes, addictions, etc. Without virtues we will
>> become worse than animals.
>> However we also must consider conditions that we have imposed on
>> ourselves. My understanding of our Baha'i Writings indicates there
>> are two types of tests, i.e. one that is God given and only He knows
>> our capacity and thus He will not give us a test we cannot pass, and
>> the other is a self-imposed test that can be most dangerous because
>> we
>
>>
>> do not know our capacity.
>
> And so *we* could very well give ourselves a test that we could not
> pass.
We do and in fact I would say most of our problems are self-imposed.
Mother nature has cycles, people are at different levels of
development and so we must act in ways that deal successfully with
these conditions.
>
>
>> For example an addict is crazy to hang
>> around with others in a bar and thinking he will never drink. This
>> is
>
>>
>> standard advice the therapist will give an addict, to change people,
>> places and things so they will have less conditions to trigger use of
>>
>> drugs etc.
>> So we must deal with natural, social and other conditions, some of
>> which we created ourselves, such as wars, poverty, creating poor
>> housing, bad foods, bad education, etc. We have to deal with the
>> poor
>
>>
>> upbringing, the disunity, the lack of a commonly agreed upon set of
>> morals and ethics in society, the conflict between what we have
>> learned and experienced and what was taught us which is in our
>> conscience and gained from parents, media, etc.
>>
>> A major problem I must deal with is Inmates in my classes who have
>> committed felonies and who have children and they want to change but
>> when they are released nobody will hire them and in order to take
>> care
>
>>
>> of their children they will go back to dealing drugs and other crimes
>>
>> and rationalize these actions by the fact that they need to take care
>>
>> of the family.
>
> So what would have to change so that this does not happen?
Several things. First of all the society must elect those leaders and
decision makers that have a much different overall view of things,
people who see the body, mind and spirit connection and need for that
kind of education. Prevention, Rehab. and Aftercare programs that are
holistic need to be in place. We need to show how having these
programs in effect is cheaper than building bigger jails and paying
higher costs for welfare, crime and poor health, etc. In short
peoples perception of who they are, to what purpose they exist, how to
live their lives and get along with others has to change from our
current and narrow views into a holistic or overview of things. Such
knowledge is available but it is often blocked by our present mind
sets, politics, religious prejudices, etc.
>
>
>> It is most difficult for someone who does not have
>> proper holistic education to learn how to deal with faith and take
>> appropriate action.
>
> Where can such a thing be gotten?
It is out there in different places and ways but if one is sincerely
seeking it can be found. There is that old bible saying about "knock
and the door shall open". It takes faith too. These Inmates in my
classes complain about wanting to go straight but never finding anyone
to help them and so they end up going back to the old behaviors and
use their rational mind to justify these criminal acts. They say they
have changed, that they believe in God, etc. but when faced with a
test they usually fall back into the old ways and then blame society
or something else for their problems. I think one of our biggest
problems as believers is the tendency to answer our own prayers. For
example a person is needing work and so they pray for a job but things
get worse and finally they say, "See God does not help me when I need
it and so I must go and do crime to survive." But maybe the answer
was to just leave town and go to a better city or something. Then
they will say, "But I don't have any money or transportation." OK, so
maybe the answer is to start walking, or go to a service organization,
or maybe back to the Probation Office or Courts and tell them you are
trying to be a better citizen but cannot find any help. In other
words the action should be something not in violation of any laws.
But then the person or persons offering help must be realistic and not
just give them money but rather give them food or help them get job
training or medicine etc. Giving criminals, addicts and the like is
not a good thing for they are usually good at conning people.
If we turn our backs on them then we are in effect hurting ourselves
sooner or later in different ways, either by increased crime or taxes,
dysfunctional families, etc.
In short we need to have an holistic overall view of things.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 2, 2009, at 6:21 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Jul 31, 8:32 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Suzanne wrote:
>>
>>>> snip
>>
>> Hi Suzanne-
>> I just wanted to add another thought for Mike3 who asked the question
>>
>> above.
>>
>> There is a quote in the Bible about "knock and the door shall
>> open" (paraphrasing) and we as Baha'is have learned that all prayers
>> are answered but the answer may or may not appear to us immediately
>> because of the Timetable of God being different than ours, or the
>> fact
>
>>
>> that there is an quote as follows which explains this better--
> <snip quote>
>
> I'm not sure what the point is that is trying to be made with the
> quote.
> What's up with it?
Hi Mike3-
I was trying to show that there are two decrees at work in Creation,
i.e. one that we can do something about and one that we cannot
interfere with. The Beloved Master, Abdu'-Baha showed an example of
how we can take natural ingredients and make a lamp and oil with a
wick to give us light and if we do not use it, do not burn the wick
say then the lamp will eventually deteriorate and return to the earth
in a natural cycle. However we can interfere in that cycle and light
the lamp and thus the oil will be used up quicker. The former is the
impending decree and the latter a conditional decree.
So we can face situations in our life and react in ways to add years
to our lives or end them rapidly. It is our choice. I tell my
Inmates in my Jail class they have four choices at present, i.e. they
can do nothing and either end up in jail or a mental institution, or
die, or they can choose to recover and become a successful person.
And the example of prayer is that we can pray all we want but there
are certain things we simply cannot change and so we pray for guidance
on how to deal with things and then we take action and learn from it
all.
regards,
doug
>
>
mike3
How though does this relate to thing about people being made aware of
the messenger?
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 4, 2009, at 3:42 PM, mike3 wrote:
>> Hi Mike3-
>> I was trying to show that there are two decrees at work in Creation,
>> i.e. one that we can do something about and one that we cannot
>> interfere with. The Beloved Master, Abdu'-Baha showed an example of
>
>> how we can take natural ingredients and make a lamp and oil with a
>> wick to give us light and if we do not use it, do not burn the wick
>> say then the lamp will eventually deteriorate and return to the earth
>> in a natural cycle. However we can interfere in that cycle and light
>
>> the lamp and thus the oil will be used up quicker. The former is the
>
>> impending decree and the latter a conditional decree.
>> So we can face situations in our life and react in ways to add years
>> to our lives or end them rapidly. It is our choice. I tell my
>> Inmates in my Jail class they have four choices at present, i.e. they
>> can do nothing and either end up in jail or a mental institution, or
>> die, or they can choose to recover and become a successful person.
>> And the example of prayer is that we can pray all we want but there
>> are certain things we simply cannot change and so we pray for
>> guidance
>
>> on how to deal with things and then we take action and learn from it
>> all.
>>
>
> How though does this relate to thing about people being made aware of
> the messenger?
Hi Mike3-
Now that I reread some of those posts I think maybe I mixed up
something for what I was trying to get across was in answer to your
questions about "conditions".
Sorry,
doug
mike3
<snip>
Thanks for your response. There's onl a couple parts that I have
questions
on:
> Several things. First of all the society must elect those leaders and
>
> decision makers that have a much different overall view of things,
> people who see the body, mind and spirit connection and need for that
>
> kind of education.
But by "leaders and decision makers" this suggests _political_ stuff,
no? Yet how does that jive with the idea in Baha'i Faith that politics
is to
be avoided?
> Prevention, Rehab. and Aftercare programs that are
>
> holistic need to be in place. We need to show how having these
> programs in effect is cheaper than building bigger jails and paying
> higher costs for welfare, crime and poor health, etc. In short
> peoples perception of who they are, to what purpose they exist, how to
>
> live their lives and get along with others has to change from our
> current and narrow views into a holistic or overview of things. Such
>
> knowledge is available but it is often blocked by our present mind
> sets, politics, religious prejudices, etc.
>
Where is this knowledge? And how can one find it?
<snip, no Qs on this stuff>
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 5, 2009, at 2:21 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Aug 3, 9:05 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Thanks for your response. There's onl a couple parts that I have
> questions
> on:
>
>> Several things. First of all the society must elect those leaders
>> and
>
>>
>> decision makers that have a much different overall view of things,
>> people who see the body, mind and spirit connection and need for that
>>
>> kind of education.
>
> But by "leaders and decision makers" this suggests _political_ stuff,
> no? Yet how does that jive with the idea in Baha'i Faith that politics
> is to
> be avoided?
Hi Mike3-
No I'm not talking about politics I am speaking here of anyone who is
in a decision making position, i.e. a CEO, Dean, Principal of a
school, Business Mgr. etc. Also what is meant in the Baha'i Faith by
avoiding politics is to avoid partisan politics.
>
>
>> Prevention, Rehab. and Aftercare programs that are
>>
>> holistic need to be in place. We need to show how having these
>> programs in effect is cheaper than building bigger jails and paying
>> higher costs for welfare, crime and poor health, etc. In short
>> peoples perception of who they are, to what purpose they exist, how
>> to
>
>>
>> live their lives and get along with others has to change from our
>> current and narrow views into a holistic or overview of things. Such
>
>>
>> knowledge is available but it is often blocked by our present mind
>> sets, politics, religious prejudices, etc.
>>
>
> Where is this knowledge? And how can one find it?
Baha'u'llah has revealed new knowledge to mankind and sensitive souls
everywhere are tuning into it. However what they produce is coming
from their human inspirations unless, like Baha'is they have direct
access to the Writings. Baha'is for many years have been applying
this knowledge in such fields as education. Dr. Daniel C. Jordan, for
example designed a new education system called ANISA and his friend
Marian Lippitt, when serving as Secty. to the NSA's National Reference
Library Committee indexed over 300,000 quotes that led her to develop
a new education philosophy and core curriculum along with many
deepenings, teacher training and teaching programs as well as
spiritual transformation programs, some of which can be used in non-
Baha'i areas such as one that I use in our SED project. The program I
use is designed to root out the hang-ups, or dysfunctional thinking
and expose such things to a holistic body of knowledge and thus
changing ones perceptions. Its concepts come directly from the Baha'i
Writings but do not have the religious terminology and so it passes
the separation of church and state rule. It uses a special
application technique more or less derived from those same Baha'i
Writings.
In short, there is a lot of stuff out their today that is related to
this New Revelation. The type of education I'm talking about, the
kind that comes from sources like what Dan Jordan and Marian Lippitt
produced is the type that deals with body, mind and spirit and thus it
is holistic.
We have the knowledge but the problem is the old system and its
constituents still have traditional thinking which blocks anything
new. This is a historical problem in that the old is always fighting
the new.
regards,
doug
mike3
> On Aug 5, 2009, at 2:21 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 3, 9:05 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> > Thanks for your response. There's onl a couple parts that I have
> > questions
> > on:
>
> >> Several things. First of all the society must elect those leaders
> >> and
>
> >> decision makers that have a much different overall view of things,
> >> people who see the body, mind and spirit connection and need for that
>
> >> kind of education.
>
> > But by "leaders and decision makers" this suggests _political_ stuff,
> > no? Yet how does that jive with the idea in Baha'i Faith that politics
> > is to
> > be avoided?
>
> Hi Mike3-
> No I'm not talking about politics I am speaking here of anyone who is
> in a decision making position, i.e. a CEO, Dean, Principal of a
> school, Business Mgr. etc. Also what is meant in the Baha'i Faith by
> avoiding politics is to avoid partisan politics.
>
Now it makes sense.
>
>
>
>
> >> Prevention, Rehab. and Aftercare programs that are
>
> >> holistic need to be in place. We need to show how having these
> >> programs in effect is cheaper than building bigger jails and paying
> >> higher costs for welfare, crime and poor health, etc. In short
> >> peoples perception of who they are, to what purpose they exist, how
> >> to
>
> >> live their lives and get along with others has to change from our
> >> current and narrow views into a holistic or overview of things. Suc
h
>
> >> knowledge is available but it is often blocked by our present mind
> >> sets, politics, religious prejudices, etc.
>
> > Where is this knowledge? And how can one find it?
>
> Baha'u'llah has revealed new knowledge to mankind and sensitive souls
> everywhere are tuning into it. However what they produce is coming
> from their human inspirations unless, like Baha'is they have direct
> access to the Writings.
But that doesn't make it _totally_ wrong and useless, either, though,
but it's not as good as what could be had with direct access.
Is that right?
> Baha'is for many years have been applying
> this knowledge in such fields as education. Dr. Daniel C. Jordan, for
> example designed a new education system called ANISA and his friend
> Marian Lippitt, when serving as Secty. to the NSA's National Reference
> Library Committee indexed over 300,000 quotes that led her to develop
> a new education philosophy and core curriculum along with many
> deepenings, teacher training and teaching programs as well as
> spiritual transformation programs, some of which can be used in non-
> Baha'i areas such as one that I use in our SED project. The program I
> use is designed to root out the hang-ups, or dysfunctional thinking
> and expose such things to a holistic body of knowledge and thus
> changing ones perceptions. Its concepts come directly from the Baha'i
> Writings but do not have the religious terminology and so it passes
> the separation of church and state rule. It uses a special
> application technique more or less derived from those same Baha'i
> Writings.
>
> In short, there is a lot of stuff out their today that is related to
> this New Revelation. The type of education I'm talking about, the
> kind that comes from sources like what Dan Jordan and Marian Lippitt
> produced is the type that deals with body, mind and spirit and thus it
> is holistic.
>
Where could I find out more about this thing? As I'm curious about it.
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 7, 2009, at 2:14 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Aug 5, 8:40 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On Aug 5, 2009, at 2:21 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> snip
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> snip
>>
>> Baha'u'llah has revealed new knowledge to mankind and sensitive souls
>> everywhere are tuning into it. However what they produce is coming
>> from their human inspirations unless, like Baha'is they have direct
>> access to the Writings.
>
> But that doesn't make it _totally_ wrong and useless, either, though,
> but it's not as good as what could be had with direct access.
> Is that right?
No, not totally wrong but maybe not being applied properly. For
example take equality for example. Baha'is have been promoting this
principle for a long time and yet here in America where we have the
Declaration of Ind. etc. we have not been loyal to it. Look at how
long it took for women, blacks and Native Amer. to get the right to
vote and it took a lot of pain to get there too. This principle was
revealed and sensitive souls tuned into it but they met stiff
resistance to get it established and still it is not fully so. If the
majority of folks had access and accepted the Bahai Writings I think
this and other principles would be more fully assimilated. How did
women for example apply this principle? Well some burned their bras,
had marches and many movements were led by lesbians, not that that
makes it wrong but I don't think you will find Baha'is resorting to
such tactics.
I have lots of information but it probably would be best to look at
our website. I am one of the founding members. The Master Index of
the Baha'i Writings has now been computerized and presently there are
volunteers uploading the latest translations and other references to
the original 300,000 quotes indexed manually. It is a Synopticon not
just a word index.
http://www.investigatereality.org/
If you need to discuss this further you can write me.
regards,
doug
mike3
wrote:
OK. I guess maybe you used the word in a different way than I was.
What
question did I ask that this might be better suited to answering?
mike3
> On Aug 7, 2009, at 2:14 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 5, 8:40 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> On Aug 5, 2009, at 2:21 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
> >> snip
>
> >>>> snip
>
> >> Baha'u'llah has revealed new knowledge to mankind and sensitive souls
> >> everywhere are tuning into it. However what they produce is coming
> >> from their human inspirations unless, like Baha'is they have direct
> >> access to the Writings.
>
> > But that doesn't make it _totally_ wrong and useless, either, though,
> > but it's not as good as what could be had with direct access.
> > Is that right?
>
> No, not totally wrong but maybe not being applied properly. For
> example take equality for example. Baha'is have been promoting this
> principle for a long time and yet here in America where we have the
> Declaration of Ind. etc. we have not been loyal to it. Look at how
> long it took for women, blacks and Native Amer. to get the right to
> vote and it took a lot of pain to get there too. This principle was
> revealed and sensitive souls tuned into it but they met stiff
> resistance to get it established and still it is not fully so. If the
> majority of folks had access and accepted the Bahai Writings I think
> this and other principles would be more fully assimilated.
So then they'll never be _any_ "more" fully assimilated until the
_majority_
is Baha'i? Does this mean we won't have world government or something
until the _majority_ is Baha'i?
Douglas McAdam
Well I think the more we Baha'is teach the more the Teachings of
Baha'u'llah will inspire changes. However it is also possible that
the decline in the old world order will become so glaringly and
dramatically obvious it will spur interest in creating a remedy. It
may well be that some sort of international govt. might evolve as time
goes by and not necessarily because the majority of the pop. are
Baha'i but maybe on account of world conditions, economy, travel, etc.
demanding such a thing. We have UN and yet the majority of the world
are not Baha'is. And I believe we can trace the idea for UN directly
to Baha'u'llah's principle of collective security which first took
form as the League of Nations. There may a hint of when things will
happen by considering the following -
Prerequistites to the Lesser Peace
*The abandonment of all forms of prejudice
*Assurance to women of full equality of opportunity with men
*Recognition of the unity and relativity of religious truth
*The elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth
*The realization of universal education
*The responsibility of each person to independently search for truth
*The establishment of a global commonwealth of nations
*Recognition that true religion is in harmony with reason and the
pursuit of scientific knowledge
Unfortunately I do not have the source of this but I do know that if
you research the Baha'i Writings on the subject you will find many,
many relevant quotes. Here is one that gives us an overview.-
LESSER PEACE—The first of two major stages in which Baha'is believe
peace will be established. The Lesser Peace will come about through a
binding treaty among [746] the nations for the political unification
of the world. It will involve fixing every nation's boundaries,
strictly limiting the size of armaments, laying down the principles
underlying the relations among governments, and ascertaining all
international agreements and obligations. Its inception will
synchronize with two processes operating within the Baha'i Faith—the
maturation of local and national Baha'i institutions and the
completion of specified buildings around the Arc on Mount Carmel and
will portend the coming of the Most Great Peace.
MESSAGES FROM
THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE
1963-1986
Douglas McAdam
Hi Mike-
Here is the question you asked and which I was trying to answer but
somehow it only led to more questions or comments and these sub-
threads seem to have gotten us off our original theme. Maybe I can
help bring it back by sticking strictly to this question you asked-
>> What I mean is the conditions that are causing the problem, viewed
>> from a holistic point of view.
>>
I tried to explain there are two views of a thing, i.e. our Personal
View which is the result of our upbringing, our exposure to what
parents teach, our schools, the media, the streets, etc. which in many
ways is not realism and then we have what we call an Overall View
which is the result of the harmony of science and religion or what we
accept on faith and test with our reason and senses. Our Personal
Views are often faulty and from it we can create conditions that
impede our progress. The Overall View is such that exposes these
egocentric views and the conditions they cause. People who are
deprived of the Overall View are limited to analyzing conditions,
problems, etc. and then offering remedies that in and of themselves
create more problems or conditions. For example the conditions known
as prejudice of races, religions, gender, class, etc. are created by
people who do not have an Overall View, or who believe their view IS
the Overall View. Some religionists think their religion provides the
Overall View and they put down anyone else's view if different.
I could list more examples but I'm sure you see what I mean.
regards,
doug
mike3
<snip>
Thank you for the response. I don't have any more questions about this
one.
mike3
Ah. I'm curious: What _more_ is offered in terms of what can be
_analyzed_
when the overall holistic view is used? You said that without this
view one
is limited to "analyzing conditions, problems, etc."
Also, what do you mean when you say the more faulty personal view is
"egocentric"? That it built around that person's particular
perceptions, etc.
of the things, as opposed to the holistic view which is not dependent
on
a particular perception by a certain person?
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 9, 2009, at 11:24 AM, mike3 wrote:
Snip
>>> For example the conditions known
>>
>>> as prejudice of races, religions, gender, class, etc. are created by
>>> people who do not have an Overall View, or who believe their view IS
>>> the Overall View. Some religionists think their religion provides
>>> the
>>
>>> Overall View and they put down anyone else's view if different.
>>>
>>> I could list more examples but I'm sure you see what I mean.
>>
>
>> Ah. I'm curious: What _more_ is offered in terms of what can be
>> _analyzed_
>> when the overall holistic view is used? You said that without this
>> view one
>> is limited to "analyzing conditions, problems, etc."
>>
>> Also, what do you mean when you say the more faulty personal view is
>> "egocentric"? That it built around that person's particular
>> perceptions, etc.
>> of the things, as opposed to the holistic view which is not dependent
>> on
>> a particular perception by a certain person?
I guess maybe I did not explain the two views and how they differ. As
we grow up we are operating mostly from a childish and predominately
physical view of things. Our parents teach us and we also get exposed
to what others teach us, what the media informs us, what the school
teaches us. In general we have input from many sources and not all
are accurate or realistic. We most perceive things from an egocentric
point of view, how things affect us, etc. Back in history early
peoples did not have travel like we do, nor did they have
communication with others like we do and they saw the sun rises in the
east and going round them and settling in the west and so the thought
was that the sun circled the earth. However as we grew more
intellectually and spiritually we found this to be incorrect. The
former was called an egocentric view of things and the latter was an
abstract or overall view.
Today we find people thinking in terms of what exists and shows signs
that register on our sense perceptions but we also know intellectually
there is more to all this than just what the signs show. We also can
and many do know what underlies the appearances of things. The
Overall View sees both what exists and shows signs registering on our
sense perceptions but also what underlies the appearances of things
such as its Purpose, Powers to Achieve Purpose, Its Behavior Patttern
and Life Pattern. That is because we humans with our intellect and
powers of faith in addition to our senses have an awareness of Time in
which we can see patterns of behavior, a things purpose and powers.
How do we acquire such knowledge? Well our powers of faith, intellect
and senses enable us to perceive and experience things that we
discover or that are revealed to us by enlighteners. So if our
experiences are limited and in many ways faulty or unrealistic then we
are not seeing things from an overall view. Likewise the Overall View
coming from the harmony of faith and reason or science and religion is
constantly developing and broadening our understanding and if we do
not possess such knowledge we would be operating from an older and
maybe unrealistic view of things.
Another analogy might be the one of a school teacher who has a college
degree and is teaching elementary classes. The student only has the
combined knowledge from his or her experiences from parents, media,
previous grades, etc. but the teacher has a more overall view. The
teacher possesses knowledge the student cannot grasp because they have
yet to go through the entire education process to get to the teachers
level of perception and understanding.
Adults in our society can attache themselves to limited views which
affect their life and the lives of others. For example people become
divided over politics and choose one side or another and yet there are
those who see the whole situation and might see how both sides are
complimentary. There are people who deny religion and there are
people who favor religion over science and there are people who have a
harmony in these and whose views are quite different.
Hope this helps,
doug
mike3
wrote:
But what exactly does that mean -- an "egocentric" point of view? Is
it
as I mentioned a view based on the person's particular perceptions
and interpretations of the things?
> Back in history early
> peoples did not have travel like we do, nor did they have
> communication with others like we do and they saw the sun rises in the
> east and going round them and settling in the west and so the thought
> was that the sun circled the earth. However as we grew more
> intellectually and spiritually we found this to be incorrect. The
> former was called an egocentric view of things and the latter was an
> abstract or overall view.
> Today we find people thinking in terms of what exists and shows signs
> that register on our sense perceptions but we also know intellectually
> there is more to all this than just what the signs show. We also can
> and many do know what underlies the appearances of things. The
> Overall View sees both what exists and shows signs registering on our
> sense perceptions but also what underlies the appearances of things
> such as its Purpose, Powers to Achieve Purpose, Its Behavior Patttern
> and Life Pattern. That is because we humans with our intellect and
> powers of faith in addition to our senses have an awareness of Time in
> which we can see patterns of behavior, a things purpose and powers.
> How do we acquire such knowledge? Well our powers of faith, intellect
> and senses enable us to perceive and experience things that we
> discover or that are revealed to us by enlighteners. So if our
> experiences are limited and in many ways faulty or unrealistic then we
> are not seeing things from an overall view.
But won't our experiences always be limited? In that case then it
would
seem that one cannot actually *acquire* the overall view, only get
closer and
closer to it.
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 10, 2009, at 2:14 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Aug 9, 11:11 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> On Aug 9, 2009, at 11:24 AM, mike3 wrote:
>>
>> Snip
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> snip
>>
>> I guess maybe I did not explain the two views and how they differ.
>> As
>
>> we grow up we are operating mostly from a childish and predominately
>> physical view of things. Our parents teach us and we also get
>> exposed
>
>> to what others teach us, what the media informs us, what the school
>> teaches us. In general we have input from many sources and not all
>> are accurate or realistic. We most perceive things from an
>> egocentric
>
>> point of view, how things affect us, etc.
>
> But what exactly does that mean -- an "egocentric" point of view? Is
> it
> as I mentioned a view based on the person's particular perceptions
> and interpretations of the things?
I thought I had explained this but apparently not well enough.
Egocentric by definition means seeing things as they effect the person
doing the seeing, or as I had mentioned they are seeing only what
their own experiences have been. So yes it is based on one's
particular perceptions and interpretations of the things, as you said.
Yes, of course. The Overall View is constantly improving as the
knowledge improves, both that which comes from science and that from
revelations from God. We will never have the absolute overall view of
things for that is a condition only God has. So what is meant is that
we can acquire the currently available Overall View and with this
comes the openness and capacity to acquire more when available. I
explained this further in the next section but apparently you did not
see it.
>
>> Likewise the Overall View
>> coming from the harmony of faith and reason or science and religion
>> is
>
>> constantly developing and broadening our understanding and if we do
>> not possess such knowledge we would be operating from an older and
>> maybe unrealistic view of things.
>> Another analogy might be the one of a school teacher who has a
>> college
>
>> degree and is teaching elementary classes. The student only has the
>
>> combined knowledge from his or her experiences from parents, media,
>> previous grades, etc. but the teacher has a more overall view. The
>> teacher possesses knowledge the student cannot grasp because they
>> have
>
>> yet to go through the entire education process to get to the teachers
>> level of perception and understanding.
>> Adults in our society can attache themselves to limited views which
>
>> affect their life and the lives of others. For example people become
>
>> divided over politics and choose one side or another and yet there
>> are
>
>> those who see the whole situation and might see how both sides are
>> complimentary. There are people who deny religion and there are
>> people who favor religion over science and there are people who
>> have a
>
>> harmony in these and whose views are quite different.
At this point let me ask you a question. We have all heard someone
say "You are not seeing reality", or "be realistic". But where is it
that anyone defines "reality" for us? There is such a definition
available but not something that is widespread and in some ways many
scholars will object to it because their views are influenced by
certain philosophy that says there is no such thing as reality, only
our perceptions.
regards,
doug
>>
>
mike3
What about some view that is still based mostly on their own
particular
perceptions/interpretations but isn't focused only on seeing how they
affect the person themselves?
<snip>
> Yes, of course. The Overall View is constantly improving as the
> knowledge improves, both that which comes from science and that from
> revelations from God. We will never have the absolute overall view of
> things for that is a condition only God has. So what is meant is that
> we can acquire the currently available Overall View and with this
> comes the openness and capacity to acquire more when available. I
> explained this further in the next section but apparently you did not
> see it.
>
That makes more sense.
I guess why the next section didn't register is because you made that
claim
that "if our experiences are limited and in many ways faulty or
unrealistic then we
are not seeing things from an overall view.", yet our "experiences"
will always
be "limited", suggesting this "overall view" cannot be attained.
Therefore the
rest didn't seem to jive and I wasn't sure what to make of it.
<snip>
> At this point let me ask you a question. We have all heard someone
> say "You are not seeing reality", or "be realistic". But where is it
> that anyone defines "reality" for us? There is such a definition
> available but not something that is widespread and in some ways many
> scholars will object to it because their views are influenced by
> certain philosophy that says there is no such thing as reality, only
> our perceptions.
>
It seems that often it is _their opinion_ of "reality" that is being
used
to make the claim. I.e. what they think to be "reality".
I'm curious, though: what is this definition of reality you mention
that
is available but so objectionable?
Douglas McAdam
Yes, but they still see things as from their own limited perceptions,
a view that is based on their upbringing, how things effected them in
the past, etc. Supposing a person's education is one in which they
are fundamentalist Christian who believe that the bad news of today is
simply they "time of the end"? They are seeing things from a
viewpoint that is personal and yet gained from believing in what
others have taught them or what they see from their own study of the
bible.
>
Consider the debate between Evolutionists and Creationist/Intelligent
Design people? Or how about the difference between the views of
Capitalist vs Communist?
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:12 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Aug 11, 8:16 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> Snip
From an Overall View we can learn to see the Purpose of Things, the
Power to Achieve that Purpose, a things Life Pattern or Behavior
Pattern, its Name, Immediate Acts and Attributes. That is all we can
know. But we cannot know a things Essence. For example we can
perceive the name of a Toaster, its Immediate Acts, its Attributes
with or physical senses. And because we have an intellect and concept
of Time we can see its Life Pattern and Behavior Pattern and on a
still higher level, with our powers of Faith and Intuition we can see
a things Purpose and Powers. When all this is known then we have an
idea of the reality of the toaster but yet we cannot know its
essence. This is easy to know and understand when it comes to things,
like a toaster but what about Life? Where do we find the Purpose of
Life, the Powers to Achieve it, and its Behavior Pattern, etc.? Well
we peruse the Baha'i Writings which answers these but they we must
accept this on faith and then use our intellect and senses to
experience these new beliefs before we can say we know or understand
it all and even then we are aware that our view are limited and ever
advancing. Christians believe they have an Overall View, and so do
Communists, etc. but do they?
regards,
doug
mike3
So it would still be a "personal view" (as I suspected). But would it
still
be "egocentric"? I guess I'm trying to get a firm handle on what these
two terms really mean here.
I'm curious: what is the real meaning behind the "end times" thing,
then?
mike3
wrote:
> On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:12 PM, mike3 wrote:
> > I guess why the next section didn't register is because you made that
> > claim
> > that "if our experiences are limited and in many ways faulty or
> > unrealistic then we
> > are not seeing things from an overall view.", yet our "experiences"
> > will always
> > be "limited", suggesting this "overall view" cannot be attained.
> > Therefore the
> > rest didn't seem to jive and I wasn't sure what to make of it.
>
> From an Overall View we can learn to see the Purpose of Things, the
> Power to Achieve that Purpose, a things Life Pattern or Behavior
> Pattern, its Name, Immediate Acts and Attributes. That is all we can
> know. But we cannot know a things Essence. For example we can
> perceive the name of a Toaster, its Immediate Acts, its Attributes
> with or physical senses. And because we have an intellect and concept
> of Time we can see its Life Pattern and Behavior Pattern and on a
> still higher level, with our powers of Faith and Intuition we can see
> a things Purpose and Powers. When all this is known then we have an
> idea of the reality of the toaster but yet we cannot know its
> essence.
So therefore we can keep "digging down" and expanding the knowledge we
have,
but we'll never hit the "bottom".
> This is easy to know and understand when it comes to things,
> like a toaster but what about Life? Where do we find the Purpose of
> Life, the Powers to Achieve it, and its Behavior Pattern, etc.? Well
> we peruse the Baha'i Writings which answers these but they we must
> accept this on faith and then use our intellect and senses to
> experience these new beliefs before we can say we know or understand
> it all and even then we are aware that our view are limited and ever
> advancing.
So then it's not a complete view, because as you say, it is still
limited and
subject to advance. However it must nonetheless be better than the
personal
view. Yet how can one attain this overall view? Where does one get
more than
one's own perceptions, etc.?
> Christians believe they have an Overall View, and so do
> Communists, etc. but do they?
>
So then where is it found?
Douglas McAdam
Knowledge is ever expanding but no matter how much we learn about
phenomena, both physical and spiritual we can never know the essence
of things.
>
>> This is easy to know and understand when it comes to things,
>> like a toaster but what about Life? Where do we find the Purpose of
>
>> Life, the Powers to Achieve it, and its Behavior Pattern, etc.? Well
>
>> we peruse the Baha'i Writings which answers these but they we must
>> accept this on faith and then use our intellect and senses to
>> experience these new beliefs before we can say we know or understand
>> it all and even then we are aware that our view are limited and ever
>> advancing.
>
> So then it's not a complete view, because as you say, it is still
> limited and
> subject to advance. However it must nonetheless be better than the
> personal
> view. Yet how can one attain this overall view? Where does one get
> more than
> one's own perceptions, etc.?
Absolute anything is not within our realm as creatures of God.
Absolute only pertains to God. However our sphere of existence, our
human material and spiritual realm is in a way infinite and eternal
and so we are constantly evolving.
>
>> Christians believe they have an Overall View, and so do
>> Communists, etc. but do they?
>>
>
> So then where is it found?
I believe I already answered this in another email but just in case
here is where you find it. You will have to study the sciences and
religions to gain an overall view of reality. Once we have our powers
of senses, intellect and faith in harmony then we will produce
sciences and religions that are in harmony and this will give us an
Overall View. However for the time being what we now have in both is
giving us our current Overall View as long as we get to know the
purpose of things, the power to achieve that purpose, the life
pattern, and its name, immediate acts and attributes. I demonstrate
this by the use of a toaster in explaining such an appliance to a
child who is asking questions. What is it the child asks. Ans. It
is a toaster and so we Name it. What is it made of. Ans. Metal,
steel, plastic and the child can see all this in the three dimensions
of space. What does it do? Ans. It heats up bread and we put in
slice to show how it works. What is it for? Ans. To make toast for
the family. That is its purpose. How does it do that? We then show
how the electric power works.
Like I said before it is easy to demonstrate all the aspects of this
that make up reality but not so easy with life. To find out the
purpose of a human being we go to religion and accept things on faith
but then put that faith to the test of experience to gain real
knowledge.
regards,
doug
>
Douglas McAdam
Egocentric and Personal are the same thing. The overall view is
coming from an objective view of reality of things by harmonizing
religion and science or what has been revealed, discovered and
experienced. For example the Revelation from God is an overall
spiritual view of things our understanding and application of it
represents our personal view.
mike3
So then I guess such a personal view still would be "egocentric" then.
Thank you for the answer.
But what about my last question there about "end times"?
mike3
That's what I was saying, no? In the analogy, "bottom" "essence"
and I said "we will never reach" it, i.e. it will always be outside of
our
knowledge no matter how much that increases. So I was just
affirming the same thing you were saying, perhaps with different
words.
>
>
>
>
> >> This is easy to know and understand when it comes to things,
> >> like a toaster but what about Life? Where do we find the Purpose of
>
> >> Life, the Powers to Achieve it, and its Behavior Pattern, etc.? Wel
l
>
> >> we peruse the Baha'i Writings which answers these but they we must
> >> accept this on faith and then use our intellect and senses to
> >> experience these new beliefs before we can say we know or understand
> >> it all and even then we are aware that our view are limited and ever
> >> advancing.
>
> > So then it's not a complete view, because as you say, it is still
> > limited and
> > subject to advance. However it must nonetheless be better than the
> > personal
> > view. Yet how can one attain this overall view? Where does one get
> > more than
> > one's own perceptions, etc.?
>
> Absolute anything is not within our realm as creatures of God.
> Absolute only pertains to God. However our sphere of existence, our
> human material and spiritual realm is in a way infinite and eternal
> and so we are constantly evolving.
>
That's right -- but if you say a view based on one's own perceptions,
experiences, etc. is a personal/egocentric and not an overall view,
then
it would imply that to get this overall view one must use something
other
than those perceptions, and what is that?
So then the "faith" is not blind, either. It would appear then that
all
the methods of knowledge acquisition are involved here, reasoning,
faith,
senses, etc. and all used together.
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 15, 2009, at 2:30 PM, mike3 wrote:
>> Egocentric and Personal are the same thing. The overall view is
>> coming from an objective view of reality of things by harmonizing
>> religion and science or what has been revealed, discovered and
>> experienced. For example the Revelation from God is an overall
>> spiritual view of things our understanding and application of it
>> represents our personal view.
>> I'm curious: what is the real meaning behind the "end times" thing,
>> then?
>>
>
>> So then I guess such a personal view still would be "egocentric"
>> then.
>> Thank you for the answer.
>>
>> But what about my last question there about "end times"?
Not so sure I would call all Personal Views egocentric in the
strictest sense of the word. It may simply be ignorance.
In any case what is needed is the Overall View from the harmony of
science and religion, or the unity of our powers of faith and reason
which also evolves and thus anyone still clinging to old science could
be at fault. Science is self-correcting, always evolving and
individuals must also keep pace. What a loss of brain power and
finances we now have with the Creationists and Evolutionists debating
evolution, creation, etc. All religions teach love and unity but some
individuals appear to be joining partners with God and deciding what
we should or should not believe.
About the end times, well I have a lot of papers about how this has
been misunderstood from misinterpretation of the Bible. Unfortunately
there is far too much to post in emails. Maybe someone else has
access to shorter versions cause all I have are long documents, books,
and the like. Prior to the appearance of Baha'u'llah all those signs
foretold did come to pass. The Age of Prophecy, the Adamic Cycle, is
over and now we are in the Baha'i Cycle the Age of Fulfillment.
It strikes me, given the type of questions you ask, that you might
enjoy reading Guy Murchies book titled, The Seven Mysteries of Life.
It is a mind expanding work, to say the least.
I just do not have time to dig out the Baha'i references to the "time
of the end" etc. Maybe someone else can.
Good luck with your search,
doug
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 15, 2009, at 2:39 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Aug 14, 8:04 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>>>
>>> SNIP
>>
>> Knowledge is ever expanding but no matter how much we learn about
>> phenomena, both physical and spiritual we can never know the essence
>> of things.
>>
>
> That's what I was saying, no? In the analogy, "bottom" "essence"
> and I said "we will never reach" it, i.e. it will always be outside of
> our
> knowledge no matter how much that increases. So I was just
> affirming the same thing you were saying, perhaps with different
> words.
Yes but I always think of knowledge as being the top, not bottom. But
you mean "bottom" in the sense of getting to the "bottom" of things
and so I agree. Except there is a "bottom" of things relative to the
age we live in and that will change as new knowledge is revealed, and
discovered and experienced by us.
>>
>>
>>>> This is easy to know and understand when it comes to things,
>>>> like a toaster but what about Life? Where do we find the Purpose
>>>> of
>>
>>>> Life, the Powers to Achieve it, and its Behavior Pattern, etc.?
>>>> Wel
> l
>>
>>>> we peruse the Baha'i Writings which answers these but they we must
>>>> accept this on faith and then use our intellect and senses to
>>>> experience these new beliefs before we can say we know or
>>>> understand
>>>> it all and even then we are aware that our view are limited and
>>>> ever
>>>> advancing.
>>
>>> So then it's not a complete view, because as you say, it is still
>>> limited and
>>> subject to advance. However it must nonetheless be better than the
>>> personal
>>> view. Yet how can one attain this overall view? Where does one get
>>> more than
>>> one's own perceptions, etc.?
Like I said my friend, if we know the Purpose and Powers of a thing,
its Life and Behavior Patterns, its Immediate Acts in a moment of TIME
called NOW and its Qualities or Attributes then we have the Overall
View of a thing. This is in relative sense for we can never know the
absolute of a thing. A person without the knowledge of the purpose
of thing will perceive and utilize it based on what his senses and
logic (Personal View) report. For example we tell time by a watch and
use a canoe to cross the lake because we know the purpose of each. We
cannot cross the lake by trying to paddle a watch, or tell time by a
canoe.
So if we study science and religion without bias either way and learn
all those aspects of a thing as listed above then we have an overall
view. Easy to do with things but with life it is a different matter
for there we are being asked to accept what God reveals to us and test
these new beliefs by experience. Faith by definition is "conscious
knowledge and righteous deeds", according to the Guardian of the
Baha'i Faith. I also explained before how we cannot completely trust
any of the three levels of awareness we have such as our senses,
intellect and faith. Our senses can report something that is not
there, such as an oases in the desert, or seeing railroad tracks
coming together in the distance. Our intellect depends on the senses
and also on the amount and type of knowledge we have, and our power of
faith can enable us to believe in an untruth as well as a truth. So
if we focus all our powers on the overall purpose of love and unity,
harmonizing them will produce even greater awareness of reality.
regards,
doug
mike3
wrote:
> On Aug 15, 2009, at 2:30 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
> >> Egocentric and Personal are the same thing. The overall view is
> >> coming from an objective view of reality of things by harmonizing
> >> religion and science or what has been revealed, discovered and
> >> experienced. For example the Revelation from God is an overall
> >> spiritual view of things our understanding and application of it
> >> represents our personal view.
> >> I'm curious: what is the real meaning behind the "end times" thing,
> >> then?
>
> >> So then I guess such a personal view still would be "egocentric"
> >> then.
> >> Thank you for the answer.
>
> >> But what about my last question there about "end times"?
>
> Not so sure I would call all Personal Views egocentric in the
> strictest sense of the word. It may simply be ignorance.
So then why did you equate the two in your last post?
> In any case what is needed is the Overall View from the harmony of
> science and religion, or the unity of our powers of faith and reason
> which also evolves and thus anyone still clinging to old science could
> be at fault. Science is self-correcting, always evolving and
> individuals must also keep pace. What a loss of brain power and
> finances we now have with the Creationists and Evolutionists debating
> evolution, creation, etc. All religions teach love and unity but some
> individuals appear to be joining partners with God and deciding what
> we should or should not believe.
>
What's that very last bit mean?: "...but some
individuals appear to be joining partners with God and deciding what
we should or should not believe."
> About the end times, well I have a lot of papers about how this has
> been misunderstood from misinterpretation of the Bible. Unfortunately
> there is far too much to post in emails. Maybe someone else has
> access to shorter versions cause all I have are long documents, books,
> and the like. Prior to the appearance of Baha'u'llah all those signs
> foretold did come to pass. The Age of Prophecy, the Adamic Cycle, is
> over and now we are in the Baha'i Cycle the Age of Fulfillment.
>
So then since you say "prior to the appearance of Baha'u'llah all
those
signs foretold did come to pass", does that mean that all the
prophecies
in the old books have happened, and so we are now in a new realm of
time where any future events would not be prophesized in those old
books?
So would, say, this quote from Baha'u'llah:
"The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its
face is
turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight,
that to
disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will
long
continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly
appear
that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only
then,
will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise
warble
its melody."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 118-119)
refer to something that the older religious books are all silent on?
mike3
wrote:
> On Aug 15, 2009, at 2:39 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 8:04 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
>
> >>> SNIP
>
> >> Knowledge is ever expanding but no matter how much we learn about
> >> phenomena, both physical and spiritual we can never know the essence
> >> of things.
>
> > That's what I was saying, no? In the analogy, "bottom" "essence"
> > and I said "we will never reach" it, i.e. it will always be outside of
> > our
> > knowledge no matter how much that increases. So I was just
> > affirming the same thing you were saying, perhaps with different
> > words.
>
> Yes but I always think of knowledge as being the top, not bottom. But
> you mean "bottom" in the sense of getting to the "bottom" of things
> and so I agree. Except there is a "bottom" of things relative to the
> age we live in and that will change as new knowledge is revealed, and
> discovered and experienced by us.
>
Yes, that is the sense of "bottom" (getting to the "bottom" of things)
I mean.
It's an analogy. I guess I thought this would be obvious, so I'm not
sure why
you mention the other, when it was not the one I was using. Also, you
mention
the latter "bottom" "will" change -- but isn't it changing constantly?
Also,
by new knowledge is "revealed" does this mean that it isn't changing
constantly
but has to wait a thousand years for another messenger from God to
change? (!!!!)
Thanks for the response.
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:28 PM, mike3 wrote:
> On Aug 15, 4:16 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> On Aug 15, 2009, at 2:30 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>
>>>> Egocentric and Personal are the same thing. The overall view is
>>>> coming from an objective view of reality of things by harmonizing
>>>> religion and science or what has been revealed, discovered and
>>>> experienced. For example the Revelation from God is an overall
>>>> spiritual view of things our understanding and application of it
>>>> represents our personal view.
>>>> I'm curious: what is the real meaning behind the "end times" thing,
>
>>>> then?
>>
>>>> So then I guess such a personal view still would be "egocentric"
>>>> then.
>>>> Thank you for the answer.
>>
>>>> But what about my last question there about "end times"?
>>
>> Not so sure I would call all Personal Views egocentric in the
>> strictest sense of the word. It may simply be ignorance.
>
> So then why did you equate the two in your last post?
Hi Mike3-
Because I am speaking in a general sense not specific definition. It
depends on ones definition of the word "egocentric". To me it means
seeing things as they effect the person doing the seeing whereas the
overall view is seeing things objectively. Personal is limited. Yet
one could also say that we always see from or personal view even
though we have gained a lot of knowledge. I think we may be getting
too finite in our use of words. Not all Personal Views are egocentric
in the sense of only seeing things according to how they feel about
them for some are merely views based on their limited degree of
knowledge and thus are also related to ego in the sense that they are
not Overall Views.
>
>> In any case what is needed is the Overall View from the harmony of
>> science and religion, or the unity of our powers of faith and reason
>> which also evolves and thus anyone still clinging to old science
>> could
>
>> be at fault. Science is self-correcting, always evolving and
>> individuals must also keep pace. What a loss of brain power and
>> finances we now have with the Creationists and Evolutionists debating
>> evolution, creation, etc. All religions teach love and unity but
>> some
>
>> individuals appear to be joining partners with God and deciding what
>> we should or should not believe.
>>
>
> What's that very last bit mean?: "...but some
> individuals appear to be joining partners with God and deciding what
> we should or should not believe."
It means that these people are constantly judging others or telling
others what Scripture means as if they are the authorized
interpreter. You know how some people say they are going to heaven
but those of another religion are going to hell.
I think this is referring to the fact that Baha'u'llah has unfurled
the Divine Standard and all prophecy is fulfilled.
Have you read Thief in the Night?
Also I would strongly advise you read THE KITAB-I-IQAN for all those
prophecies are explained by Baha'u'llah. It is better to read for
yourself than to read what we Baha'is say.
Douglas McAdam
Hi Mike3-
There is the knowledge that is revealed to us in successive stages
through the Revelations from the Manifestations and there is the
knowledge of this that we understand and apply. Each Manifestation
adds more knowledge to us and as we develop we add more knowledge to
ourselves.
Here is a sort of interesting quote -
`No understanding can grasp the nature of His Revelation, nor can any
knowledge comprehend the full measure of His Faith. All sayings are
dependent upon His sanction, and all things stand in need of His Cause.
All else save Him are created by His command, and move and have their
being through His law. He is the Revealer of the divine mysteries, and
the Expounder of the hidden and ancient wisdom. Thus it is related in
the "Biharu'l-Anvar," the "AvalÃm," and the "Yanbu'" of Sadiq, son of
Muhammad, that he spoke these words: "Knowledge is twenty and seven
letters. All that the Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof. No
man thus far hath known more than these two letters. But when the Qa'im
shall arise, He will cause the remaining twenty and five letters to be
made manifest." Consider; He hath declared Knowledge to consist of
twenty and seven letters, and regarded all the Prophets, from Adam even
unto the "Seal," as Expounders of only two letters thereof and of having
been sent down with these two letters. He also saith that the Qa'im will
reveal all the remaining twenty and five letters. Behold from this
utterance how great and lofty is His station! His rank excelleth that of
all the Prophets, and His Revelation transcendeth the comprehension and
understanding of all their chosen ones. A Revelation, of which the
Prophets of God, His saints and chosen ones, have either not been
informed, or which, in pursuance of God's inscrutable Decree, they have
not disclosed,--such a Revelation these mean and depraved people have
sought to measure with their own deficient minds, their own deficient
learning and understanding. Should it fail to conform to their
standards, they straightway reject it. "Thinkest thou that the greater
part of them hear or understand? They are even like unto the brutes!
yea, they stray even further from the path!"'
-- Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 243-4
>
>>
regards,
doug
mike3
So the view I mentioned (quoting myself for reminder: "some view that
is still
based mostly on their own particular perceptions/interpretations but
isn't focused
only on seeing how they affect the person themselves") would not fit
as much
into the former category, as it would involve seeing things as they
affect other
people and the rest of the world -- but it would also not fit into the
latter category
as it would still be based on subjective perceptions/interpretations.
So it may
not be "egocentric" in *this* sense.
> Personal is limited. Yet
> one could also say that we always see from or personal view even
> though we have gained a lot of knowledge. I think we may be getting
> too finite in our use of words. Not all Personal Views are egocentric
> in the sense of only seeing things according to how they feel about
> them for some are merely views based on their limited degree of
> knowledge and thus are also related to ego in the sense that they are
> not Overall Views.
>
So in this other sense, then yes, it would be egocentric as well. And
I presume
it is this sense that you were referring to when you said "Egocentric
and Personal
are the same thing"?
>
>
>
>
> >> In any case what is needed is the Overall View from the harmony of
> >> science and religion, or the unity of our powers of faith and reason
> >> which also evolves and thus anyone still clinging to old science
> >> could
>
> >> be at fault. Science is self-correcting, always evolving and
> >> individuals must also keep pace. What a loss of brain power and
> >> finances we now have with the Creationists and Evolutionists debating
> >> evolution, creation, etc. All religions teach love and unity but
> >> some
>
> >> individuals appear to be joining partners with God and deciding what
> >> we should or should not believe.
>
> > What's that very last bit mean?: "...but some
> > individuals appear to be joining partners with God and deciding what
> > we should or should not believe."
>
> It means that these people are constantly judging others or telling
> others what Scripture means as if they are the authorized
> interpreter. You know how some people say they are going to heaven
> but those of another religion are going to hell.
>
Ah. That makes sense.
I suppose so.
mike3
So then *this* "bottom" (the ""bottom" of things relative to the
age we live in") is constantly getting "deeper".
Yet I still don't quite get what you were referring to when you say:
"that will change as new knowledge is revealed, and
discovered and experienced by us." -- it makes it sound like more
needs to be "revealed" before it can change, and if this refers to
revelation from a messenger this would suggest the relative "bottom"
won't deepen until at least 850 or so years from now and possibly
"thousands" more years. Unless that is not what you meant. So
what did you mean?
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 17, 2009, at 3:11 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike3-
>> Because I am speaking in a general sense not specific definition. It
>
>> depends on ones definition of the word "egocentric". To me it means
>
>> seeing things as they effect the person doing the seeing whereas the
>> overall view is seeing things objectively.
>
> So the view I mentioned (quoting myself for reminder: "some view that
> is still
> based mostly on their own particular perceptions/interpretations but
> isn't focused
> only on seeing how they affect the person themselves") would not fit
> as much
> into the former category, as it would involve seeing things as they
> affect other
> people and the rest of the world -- but it would also not fit into the
> latter category
> as it would still be based on subjective perceptions/interpretations.
> So it may
> not be "egocentric" in *this* sense.
Well one of the definitions of egocentric is -
• centered in or arising from a person's own existence or perspective
:
So to me it would still be egocentric. But again, I am not sure we
need to get that specifically detailed.
>
>> Personal is limited. Yet
>> one could also say that we always see from or personal view even
>> though we have gained a lot of knowledge. I think we may be getting
>
>> too finite in our use of words. Not all Personal Views are
>> egocentric
>
>> in the sense of only seeing things according to how they feel about
>> them for some are merely views based on their limited degree of
>> knowledge and thus are also related to ego in the sense that they are
>> not Overall Views.
>>
>
> So in this other sense, then yes, it would be egocentric as well. And
> I presume
> it is this sense that you were referring to when you said "Egocentric
> and Personal
> are the same thing"?
Yes
>
>>
'snip
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 17, 2009, at 3:16 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>> SNIP
>>
>> Hi Mike3-
>> There is the knowledge that is revealed to us in successive stages
>> through the Revelations from the Manifestations and there is the
>> knowledge of this that we understand and apply. Each Manifestation
>> adds more knowledge to us and as we develop we add more knowledge to
>> ourselves.
>
> So then *this* "bottom" (the ""bottom" of things relative to the
> age we live in") is constantly getting "deeper".
>
> Yet I still don't quite get what you were referring to when you say:
> "that will change as new knowledge is revealed, and
> discovered and experienced by us." -- it makes it sound like more
> needs to be "revealed" before it can change, and if this refers to
> revelation from a messenger this would suggest the relative "bottom"
> won't deepen until at least 850 or so years from now and possibly
> "thousands" more years. Unless that is not what you meant. So
> what did you mean?
Again Mike, it depends on knowledge. We can measure things from the
time of Adam or the time of Christ and there would appear a huge
difference. Or we can measure from the time of Christ to the time of
Baha'u'llah, or the time of Muhammad until the time of Baha'u'llah.
The Manifestation appears at a time when mankind needs a complete
change. He is likened to a Divine Physician who diagnoses the
condition and prescribes a Remedy and the dosage and application. The
illness will worsen and get better as we ourselves discover and
experience the Remedy and its proper application. We can slow it down
or speed up the healing but we cannot stop the Greater Plan of God and
I think I explained this in a previous email by giving you the analogy
the Beloved Master used about the lamp, wick and oil made from the
earth and how even if we do not use it those parts will eventually
return to the earth because of the Major Plan but we can speed it up
by lighting the lamp and burning the wick and oil.
The Revelation from Baha'u'llah fulfills all former prophecy, the Age
of Prophecy is complete and now we are in the age of the process of
fulfillment, the Baha'i Cycle which will last 5,000 centuries and so
the next Manifestation will bring us new laws, not prophecy. We are
to unite the world and that is a stepping stone to interplanetary,
universal unity, etc. It goes on forever in infinity and
eternality. This is how I understand it anyways. We can look back
and see stages of unity from family to tribe, to village, city and
nations and now the world and we can imagine other stages. All the
knowledge we need for World Unity has been revealed but we are still
in the infancy stages of discovering and experiencing it. We will
learn more and more and become more efficient at application as we
ourselves turn towards this Light and become more obedient.
I recall vividly my own time of change when I was fed up with the way
things were going in the world and how I was experiencing life and
when I came confronted with Baha'u'llah and His Revelation I sort of
said "You are either part of the problem or part of the solution". I
chose the latter and it is a glorious ride but filled with great tests
and difficulties.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 17, 2009, at 3:16 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>> SNIP
>>
>> Hi Mike3-
>> There is the knowledge that is revealed to us in successive stages
>> through the Revelations from the Manifestations and there is the
>> knowledge of this that we understand and apply. Each Manifestation
>> adds more knowledge to us and as we develop we add more knowledge to
>> ourselves.
>
> So then *this* "bottom" (the ""bottom" of things relative to the
> age we live in") is constantly getting "deeper".
>
> Yet I still don't quite get what you were referring to when you say:
> "that will change as new knowledge is revealed, and
> discovered and experienced by us." -- it makes it sound like more
> needs to be "revealed" before it can change, and if this refers to
> revelation from a messenger this would suggest the relative "bottom"
> won't deepen until at least 850 or so years from now and possibly
> "thousands" more years. Unless that is not what you meant. So
> what did you mean?
Again Mike, it depends on knowledge. We can measure things from the
and difficulties.
regards,
doug
>
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 17, 2009, at 3:11 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike3-
>> Because I am speaking in a general sense not specific definition. It
>
>> depends on ones definition of the word "egocentric". To me it means
>
>> seeing things as they effect the person doing the seeing whereas the
>> overall view is seeing things objectively.
>
> So the view I mentioned (quoting myself for reminder: "some view that
> is still
> based mostly on their own particular perceptions/interpretations but
> isn't focused
> only on seeing how they affect the person themselves") would not fit
> as much
> into the former category, as it would involve seeing things as they
> affect other
> people and the rest of the world -- but it would also not fit into the
> latter category
> as it would still be based on subjective perceptions/interpretations.
> So it may
> not be "egocentric" in *this* sense.
Well one of the definitions of egocentric is -
• centered in or arising from a person's own existence or perspective
:
So to me it would still be egocentric. But again, I am not sure we
need to get that specifically detailed.
>
>> Personal is limited. Yet
>> one could also say that we always see from or personal view even
>> though we have gained a lot of knowledge. I think we may be getting
>
>> too finite in our use of words. Not all Personal Views are
>> egocentric
>
>> in the sense of only seeing things according to how they feel about
>> them for some are merely views based on their limited degree of
>> knowledge and thus are also related to ego in the sense that they are
>> not Overall Views.
>>
>
> So in this other sense, then yes, it would be egocentric as well. And
> I presume
> it is this sense that you were referring to when you said "Egocentric
> and Personal
> are the same thing"?
Yes
>
>>
'snip
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 17, 2009, at 3:16 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>> SNIP
>>
>> Hi Mike3-
>> There is the knowledge that is revealed to us in successive stages
>> through the Revelations from the Manifestations and there is the
>> knowledge of this that we understand and apply. Each Manifestation
>> adds more knowledge to us and as we develop we add more knowledge to
>> ourselves.
>
> So then *this* "bottom" (the ""bottom" of things relative to the
> age we live in") is constantly getting "deeper".
>
> Yet I still don't quite get what you were referring to when you say:
> "that will change as new knowledge is revealed, and
> discovered and experienced by us." -- it makes it sound like more
> needs to be "revealed" before it can change, and if this refers to
> revelation from a messenger this would suggest the relative "bottom"
> won't deepen until at least 850 or so years from now and possibly
> "thousands" more years. Unless that is not what you meant. So
> what did you mean?
Again Mike, it depends on knowledge. We can measure things from the
and difficulties.
regards,
doug
>
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 17, 2009, at 3:16 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>> SNIP
>>
>> Hi Mike3-
>> There is the knowledge that is revealed to us in successive stages
>> through the Revelations from the Manifestations and there is the
>> knowledge of this that we understand and apply. Each Manifestation
>> adds more knowledge to us and as we develop we add more knowledge to
>> ourselves.
>
> So then *this* "bottom" (the ""bottom" of things relative to the
> age we live in") is constantly getting "deeper".
>
> Yet I still don't quite get what you were referring to when you say:
> "that will change as new knowledge is revealed, and
> discovered and experienced by us." -- it makes it sound like more
> needs to be "revealed" before it can change, and if this refers to
> revelation from a messenger this would suggest the relative "bottom"
> won't deepen until at least 850 or so years from now and possibly
> "thousands" more years. Unless that is not what you meant. So
> what did you mean?
Again Mike, it depends on knowledge. We can measure things from the
time of Adam or the time of Christ and there would appear a huge
difference. Or we can measure from the time of Christ to the time of
Baha'u'llah, or the time of Muhammad until the time of Baha'u'llah.
The Manifestation appears at a time when mankind needs a complete
change. He is likened to a Divine Physician who diagnoses the
condition and prescribes a Remedy and the dosage and application. The
illness will worsen and get better as we ourselves discover and
experience the Remedy and its proper application. We can slow it down
or speed up the healing but we cannot stop the Greater Plan of God and
I think I explained this in a previous email by giving you the analogy
the Beloved Master used about the lamp, wick and oil made from the
earth and how even if we do not use it those parts will eventually
return to the earth because of the Major Plan but we can speed it up
by lighting the lamp and burning the wick and oil.
The Revelation from Baha'u'llah fulfills all former prophecy, the Age
of Prophecy is complete and now we are in the age of the process of
fulfillment, the Baha'i Cycle which will last 5,000 centuries and so
the next Manifestation will bring us new laws, not prophecy. We are
to unite the world and that is a stepping stone to interplanetary,
universal unity, etc. It goes on forever in infinity and
eternality. This is how I understand it anyways. We can look back
and see stages of unity from family to tribe, to village, city and
nations and now the world and we can imagine other stages. All the
knowledge we need for World Unity has been revealed but we are still
in the infancy stages of discovering and experiencing it. We will
learn more and more and become more efficient at application as we
ourselves turn towards this Light and become more obedient.
I recall vividly my own time of change when I was fed up with the way
things were going in the world and how I was experiencing life and
when I came confronted with Baha'u'llah and His Revelation I sort of
said "You are either part of the problem or part of the solution". I
chose the latter and it is a glorious ride but filled with great tests
and difficulties.
regards,
doug
>
mike3
wrote:
> On Aug 17, 2009, at 3:11 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Hi Mike3-
> >> Because I am speaking in a general sense not specific definition. I
t
>
> >> depends on ones definition of the word "egocentric". To me it means
>
> >> seeing things as they effect the person doing the seeing whereas the
> >> overall view is seeing things objectively.
>
> > So the view I mentioned (quoting myself for reminder: "some view that
> > is still
> > based mostly on their own particular perceptions/interpretations but
> > isn't focused
> > only on seeing how they affect the person themselves") would not fit
> > as much
> > into the former category, as it would involve seeing things as they
> > affect other
> > people and the rest of the world -- but it would also not fit into the
> > latter category
> > as it would still be based on subjective perceptions/interpretations.
> > So it may
> > not be "egocentric" in *this* sense.
>
> Well one of the definitions of egocentric is -
> • centered in or arising from a person's own existence or perspective
> :
> So to me it would still be egocentric. But again, I am not sure we
> need to get that specifically detailed.
>
Well I guess it would be in that sense. I was just talking about it in
another sense, i.e.referring a view involving "seeing things as they
effect the person doing the seeing". And I was saying it wouldn't fit
that sense because it isn't only focused on how they affect that
person,
and not even just primarily. But I guess it would still be
"egocentric"
in the above-mentioned sense as it would still be based on their
particular perceptions/interpretations.
mike3
wrote:
I'm curious: when and what do you think will be necessary for the
"infancy"
stage to end and the next stage beyond it to begin, even if it is not
the
ultimate, mature stage?
> I recall vividly my own time of change when I was fed up with the way
>
> things were going in the world and how I was experiencing life and
> when I came confronted with Baha'u'llah and His Revelation I sort of
> said "You are either part of the problem or part of the solution". I
>
> chose the latter and it is a glorious ride but filled with great tests
>
> and difficulties.
>
Once again I still don't grasp how all the above relates to your
statement
about the ""bottom" of things relative to the age we live in" that
"will
change as new knowledge is revealed, and discovered and experienced by
us.".
Since you say "revealed", does that equal revelation from a messenger,
and so this relative bottom cannot advance until at last the lapse of
about 50 or so years as of now? Or does "discovering" and
"experiencing"
what already has been revealed also count as an advancement of this
"relative bottom", and so the relative bottom is constantly advancing?
Yet if that's so then why do you say "will" change which makes it
sound
like it's not happening now and will only happen at some unspecified
point in the future, possibly only in the very remote future? I'm just
not sure how everything you mention above answers these questions
about
your statement. You talk about large gap, small gap, etc. when viewed
from different times -- how does that relate to those questions? It
seems
more like a recap of Baha'i theory of divine revelation then an answer
to the questions asking for clarification of specific points about
your
statement, which may or may not all be related to that.
Douglas McAdam
Hi Mike-
I really don't know how to answer this except to say that maybe if we
looked at the five stages of growth and unity from the Master we might
say that when we achieve the Lesser Peace or a certain stage of Unity
that might indicate the beginning of maturity.
According to my understanding mankind is at a "bottom" when the
Manifestation appears and His Revelation recreates Creation and endows
it with a new potential. So there is a twin process of growth going
on where we see disintegration and integration going on
simultaneously. The "bottom" thus is in different stages at time goes
by. It seems to me now that we have not yet bottomed out and the
entire old world order will collapse as the new world order becomes
increasing apparent to most people. One analogy I can think of is
when I lived in the poverty area of the city and there was a lot of
trash on the streets, sidewalks and properties and most properties
were run down. I new family moved into a corner lot and they painted
the house, fixed up the whole house and yard, planted grass and
flowers and put up a white picket fence. The citizens were in a state
of just accepting the way things were until this family moved and but
now they saw a contrast and became miserable at their life styles. As
the Revelation is more widespread more and more people are seeing how
bad things are and they want to make changes but what they often
propose causes even more problems. Take for example the legalization
of alcohol and now the proposal of doing the same for all drugs. The
Beloved Guardian of the Baha'i Faith said this is the age wherein we
are moving from "oblivion to active oppression".
All knowledge has been revealed with the coming of the Baha'i
Revelation and so we are seeing a complete overhaul of society. All
its systems are defective and in decline, or bottoming out.
I guess I would need you to list the various points in which you
desire more clarification.
regards,
doug
>
>
mike3
Yes, but isn't there also stages between "infancy" and "maturity",
anyway?
You even mentioned about 5 stages of growth.
But the old doesn't need to bottom out before the new one can be
built,
does it?
> One analogy I can think of is
> when I lived in the poverty area of the city and there was a lot of
> trash on the streets, sidewalks and properties and most properties
> were run down. I new family moved into a corner lot and they painted
> the house, fixed up the whole house and yard, planted grass and
> flowers and put up a white picket fence. The citizens were in a state
> of just accepting the way things were until this family moved and but
> now they saw a contrast and became miserable at their life styles. As
> the Revelation is more widespread more and more people are seeing how
> bad things are and they want to make changes but what they often
> propose causes even more problems. Take for example the legalization
> of alcohol and now the proposal of doing the same for all drugs. The
> Beloved Guardian of the Baha'i Faith said this is the age wherein we
> are moving from "oblivion to active oppression".
> All knowledge has been revealed with the coming of the Baha'i
> Revelation and so we are seeing a complete overhaul of society. All
> its systems are defective and in decline, or bottoming out.
> I guess I would need you to list the various points in which you
> desire more clarification.
>
It seems that you have switched to using a different sense of "bottom"
and are referring to something else. Here's the thing:
I said:
(http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/
688a16a519025ee6?hlen)
"That's what I was saying, no? In the analogy, "bottom" "essence"
and I said "we will never reach" it, i.e. it will always be outside of
our
knowledge no matter how much that increases. So I was just
affirming the same thing you were saying, perhaps with different
words."
You said in response:
(http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/
a7a61c4c99ed6a33?hlen)
"Yes but I always think of knowledge as being the top, not bottom.
But
you mean "bottom" in the sense of getting to the "bottom" of things
and so I agree. Except there is a "bottom" of things relative to
the
age we live in and that will change as new knowledge is revealed,
and
discovered and experienced by us."
This is the "bottom" I'm referring to -- the one here where you say
"there
is a "bottom" of things relative to the age we live in and that will
change as new knowledge is revealed, and discovered and experienced
by
us." Not something about "bottoming out" of the "world order", which
is a
quite different topic. And the question I have is does this mean that
for
this "relative knowledge bottom" to advance, we will need another
revelation
and so another messenger, because you say it "will" change as "new
knowledge
is *revealed*, and discovered and experienced by us" (emphasis mine).
And so
our knowledge could not start to increase until the lapse of at least
some
850 or so years from now? Or does the discovery and experience of it
also
make the "bottom" deeper? In which case the bottom would always be
advancing.
Yet then you say it "will" change which seems to imply it is not
happening
now. So what are you referring to?
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 28, 7:24 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:On Aug 28, 2009, at 2:32 PM, mike3 wrote:
SNIP
Hi Mike-I really don't know how to answer this except to say that maybe if welooked at the five stages of growth and unity from the Master we mightsay that when we achieve the Lesser Peace or a certain stage of Unitythat might indicate the beginning of maturity.
Yes, but isn't there also stages between "infancy" and "maturity",
anyway?
You even mentioned about 5 stages of growth.
During this Formative Age of the Faith, and in the course of present and succeeding epochs, the last and crowning stage in the erection of the framework of the Administrative Order of the Faith of Baha'u'llah—the election of the Universal House of Justice—will have been completed, the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Mother-Book of His Revelation, will have been codified and its laws promulgated, the Lesser Peace will have been established, the unity of mankind will have been achieved and its maturity attained, the Plan conceived by Abdu'l-Baha will have been executed, the emancipation of the Faith from the fetters of religious orthodoxy will have been effected, and its independent religious status will have been universally recognized, whilst in the course of the Golden Age, destined to consummate the Dispensation itself, the banner of the Most Great Peace, promised by its Author, will have been unfurled, the World Baha'i Commonwealth will have emerged in the plenitude of its power and splendor, and the birth and efflorescence of a world civilization, the child of that Peace, will have conferred its inestimable blessings upon all mankind.
One analogy I can think of iswhen I lived in the poverty area of the city and there was a lot oftrash on the streets, sidewalks and properties and most propertieswere run down. I new family moved into a corner lot and they paintedthe house, fixed up the whole house and yard, planted grass andflowers and put up a white picket fence. The citizens were in a stateof just accepting the way things were until this family moved and butnow they saw a contrast and became miserable at their life styles. Asthe Revelation is more widespread more and more people are seeing howbad things are and they want to make changes but what they oftenpropose causes even more problems. Take for example the legalizationof alcohol and now the proposal of doing the same for all drugs. TheBeloved Guardian of the Baha'i Faith said this is the age wherein weare moving from "oblivion to active oppression".All knowledge has been revealed with the coming of the Baha'iRevelation and so we are seeing a complete overhaul of society. Allits systems are defective and in decline, or bottoming out.I guess I would need you to list the various points in which youdesire more clarification.
It seems that you have switched to using a different sense of "bottom"
and are referring to something else. Here's the thing:
I said:
(http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/
688a16a519025ee6?hl=en)
"That's what I was saying, no? In the analogy, "bottom" "essence"
and I said "we will never reach" it, i.e. it will always be outside of
our
knowledge no matter how much that increases. So I was just
affirming the same thing you were saying, perhaps with different
words."
You said in response:
(http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/
a7a61c4c99ed6a33?hl=en)
`No understanding can grasp the nature of His Revelation, nor can any knowledge comprehend the full measure of His Faith. All sayings are dependent upon His sanction, and all things stand in need of His Cause. All else save Him are created by His command, and move and have their being through His law. He is the Revealer of the divine mysteries, and the Expounder of the hidden and ancient wisdom. Thus it is related in the "Biharu'l-Anvar," the "AvalÃm," and the "Yanbu'" of Sadiq, son of Muhammad, that he spoke these words: "Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof. No man thus far hath known more than these two letters. But when the Qa'im shall arise, He will cause the remaining twenty and five letters to be made manifest." Consider; He hath declared Knowledge to consist of twenty and seven letters, and regarded all the Prophets, from Adam even unto the "Seal," as Expounders of only two letters thereof and of having been sent down with these two letters. He also saith that the Qa'im will reveal all the remaining twenty and five letters. Behold from this utterance how great and lofty is His station! His rank excelleth that of all the Prophets, and His Revelation transcendeth the comprehension and understanding of all their chosen ones. A Revelation, of which the Prophets of God, His saints and chosen ones, have either not been informed, or which, in pursuance of God's inscrutable Decree, they have not disclosed,--such a Revelation these mean and depraved people have sought to measure with their own deficient minds, their own deficient learning and understanding. Should it fail to conform to their standards, they straightway reject it. "Thinkest thou that the greater part of them hear or understand? They are even like unto the brutes! yea, they stray even further from the path!"' -- Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 243-4
However to me that does not mean all growth is final for there are other quotes saying that development is eternal, infinite throughout all the worlds of God.
regards,
doug
Suzanne
> Yes, but isn't there also stages between "infancy" and "maturity",
> anyway?
Hi Mike,
It's all relative. If you are looking in terms of the Baha'i
Dispensation which will last a thousand or more years, or the Baha'i
Cycle, which will last, we are told, 500,000 years, we are just in our
infancy in being able to comprehend and carry out all the teachings.
But if you are looking in terms of the history of mankind on this
planet, or even in terms of the Adamic Cycle, far from being in our
infancy, humanity is in our turblent adolescence and is at the point
of its long-awaited coming of age. Baha'u'llah came because we are
ready for more. If the Manifestations of the past have given us a
kindergarten through grade school education, Baha'u'llah has given us
the teachings which are analogous to a university education.
Here are some quotes about the stage we are in. This is about
humanity's progress in generic terms:
"The long ages of infancy and childhood, through which the human race
had to pass, have receded into the background. Humanity is now
experiencing the commotions invariably associated with the most
turbulent stage of its evolution, the stage of adolescence, when the
impetuosity of youth and its vehemence reach their climax, and must
gradually be superseded by the calmness, the wisdom, and the maturity
that characterize the stage of manhood. Then will the human race
reach that stature of ripeness which will enable it to acquire all the
powers and capacities upon which its ultimate development must
depend."
(Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 202)
And this is about the progress of the Baha'i Faith:
"This community though still in its infancy, is manifesting, in the
course of the first years of its existence as an independent
administrative entity, a virility, a steadfastness of purpose, a
dedication to the Cause it serves, an organizing ability in the
administration of its affairs that augur well for the glorious destiny
disclosed by the Pen of the Author of the Divine Plan in His epoch-
making Tablets..."
(Shoghi Effendi: Messages to Canada, Page: 21)
In terms of the Baha'i Era, although still in our infancy, we are
probably more like toddlers right now than neo-natal.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
> Yes, but isn't there also stages between "infancy" and "maturity",
> anyway?
Hi Mike,