Tim Allen a Shriner?
Sean J. Carey
advertisement for Shriners hospitals done by him.
AUBREY BROWN SR
has also done Shriner's Hospital commercials and he is not a Mason. His
father in law does belong to one of the clandestine outfits. Michael though
has been done to have a couple of drinks at a couple of Prince Hall hangouts
but doesn't feel he could devote the time and commitment necessary for
Masonry at this point.
--
Past Master Aubrey Brown Sr.
Eureka Lodge No. 64 F&AM
Grand Historian MWPHGL of IL
aubrey...@worldnet.att.net
Sean J. Carey wrote in message <35fc0ac...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
Sean J. Carey
TSHIRT204
part
of his probation/rehab. As a convicted drug dealer, i would hope he is NOT a
member of our fraternity.
-Billy Wilson 32'
S.D. North Star Lodge
Wharton NJ
CodeEl...@worldnet.att.net
How about doling out some of the brotherly love we're famous for? True, he
did spend time in prison for drugs, but, under the laws of the good ol' U.
S.
of A., his debt to society had been paid. In full. Period. Does membership
in our fraternity guarantee that a man is going to increase his
respectfulness? No. Bro. Samual Colt was criticized for his invention, the
revolver. Bro. Joseph Guillotin invented a brutal method of carrying out
capital punishment. And Bro. Alfred Von Tirpitz of the German Navy was
ruthless in his use of submarine warfare. Yet: Has Tim Allen mended his
ways?
I think so. If the purpose of prison is to say, "Don't do it again
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Wallace & Ruth Jones
The other Bros. you mentioned were not "scum of the earth" drug dealers.
Wallace Jones MM
Paul C. Graham
perfection. A fallen brother who mends his ways can be a priceless asset
to the fraternity or community at large. Just my thought on the matter.
Ft. Jackson #374
Grand Lodge of SC, A.F.M.
TSHIRT204
If I saw Tim Allen broken down on the side of the road, if he needed a ride
to
the doctors office, ..If he was my nabor I would gladly extend to him the
hand
of brotherly love and Christian charity.....but as a convicted drug smuggler
who through those actions showed that he put his own financial welbeing
above
those kids who bought his drugs......NO BROTHER!!!...I would NOT accept him
as
a member of our fraternity!! I would never want anyone to associate me with
his
type. This is my opinion, and I'm sure I am not alone in this. I put Masonry
on
a higher level.
Billy Wilson
Wy Akak
(TSHIRT204)
writes:
It is a real shame, this kind of arrogance. Didn't somebody once say "let
he
who is without sin....?"
---------------------
Carl C. Heffner, Consultant
Accu-Rate Telecommunications Auditing & Consulting
726 W. Van Gogh
Fayetteville, AR 72703-2200
(501) 444-8909
http://www.wefindumoney.com http://www.phonerefund.com
.
Floyd Dennis
>In article <35f9f456...@nntp.prolynx.com>,
> tshi...@aol.com (TSHIRT204) wrote:
>> Just a guess.But it could have been a public service type announcement as
>> part
>> of his probation/rehab. As a convicted drug dealer, i would hope he is NOT a
>> member of our fraternity.
<snip>
>
>How about doling out some of the brotherly love we're famous for? True, he
>did spend time in prison for drugs, but, under the laws of the good ol' U. S.
>of A., his debt to society had been paid. In full. Period. Does membership
>in our fraternity guarantee that a man is going to increase his
>respectfulness? No. Bro. Samual Colt was criticized for his invention, the
>revolver. Bro. Joseph Guillotin invented a brutal method of carrying out
>capital punishment. And Bro. Alfred Von Tirpitz of the German Navy was
>ruthless in his use of submarine warfare. Yet: Has Tim Allen mended his
>ways?
>I think so. If the purpose of prison is to say, "Don't do it again
I think the answers to this question would so individually variant
they could only be answered on a case-by-case basis.
Floyd Dennis, Jr.
Sam Davis Lodge #661 F.&A.M., Smyrna, Tennessee
http://sam_davis.home.mindspring.com/
32° AASR, S.J. USA, Valley of Nashville, Orient of TN
fbde...@mindspring.com
TSHIRT204
I have chosen to answer your last email to the list privately, because quite
honestly I took your reply personally, and am quite insulted. You are
obviously
quite headstrong in your feelings, but to accuse a Brother of arrogance in a
public forum, taking the side of an "outsider", is simply not done. I
answered
you with polite honesty, and was replied to condescendingly, and rudely. I
stated that I would extend to him a helping hand, but I reiterrate...I put
freemasonry on a higher level, I am sorry that you obviously do not.
Billy Wilson S.D. North Star Lodge #255, Wharton, NJ tshi...@aol.com
P.S. Please if you feel so compelled, reply to me privately, as this sort
of
discussion should not be made in public.
Wallace & Ruth Jones
Arrogance is a very strong word to be used in polite discussion. I don't
want a drug dealer in a fraternity that has so many good and honorable
men as members. If one of these CREEPS sold drugs to one of your loved
ones I wonder if you would be so quick to forgive.
Perhaps,if you post again,you will spare us the advertisement and
instead inform us of your Masonic affiliation.
Wallace Jones
Union#48
Elkton Md.
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net
>
> In article <35f9f456...@nntp.prolynx.com>,
> tshi...@aol.com (TSHIRT204) wrote:
> > Just a guess.But it could have been a public service type announcement as
> > part
> > of his probation/rehab. As a convicted drug dealer, i would hope he is NOT a
> > member of our fraternity.
> > S.D. North Star Lodge
> > Wharton NJ
> >
> >
>
convicted of a felony) then the price of dancing is YOU WILL NOT BE MADE
A MASON. Serving time does not erease the fact that you committed the
crime. If our children were taught that there is, in fact, penalties
that follow you throughout life for deeds committed, both good and bad,
just maybe we would have a better world. Just my thoughts.
J. Oliver, MM
> How about doling out some of the brotherly love we're famous for? True, he
> did spend time in prison for drugs, but, under the laws of the good ol' U.
> S.
> of A., his debt to society had been paid. In full. Period. Does membership
> in our fraternity guarantee that a man is going to increase his
> respectfulness? No. Bro. Samual Colt was criticized for his invention, the
> revolver. Bro. Joseph Guillotin invented a brutal method of carrying out
> capital punishment. And Bro. Alfred Von Tirpitz of the German Navy was
> ruthless in his use of submarine warfare. Yet: Has Tim Allen mended his
> ways?
> I think so. If the purpose of prison is to say, "Don't do it again
>
Wy Akak
topic. Let me explain: in my view, there is no better issue for the good of
the order than this one, and as such, ought to be discussed openly and
freely.
The comments (to the extent) were made that if Tim Allen, the comedian, were
a
freemason (actually, I believe the term was Shriner, but since we're talking
freemasonry the distinction needs to be drawn because the Shrine is not a
masonic order although one has to be a master mason to be a shriner) that he
ought to be expelled from the order due to having been convicted of
possession
of drugs. The comment being made to support this, that freemasonry, as a
whole, consists of men of a "higher" moral character and a "higher" ethical
standard. Based upon this, I stand by my statement that this is a horribly
arrogant attitude to have (and I would seriously have to question what
motives
someone with that attitude would have had to petition freemasonry). We, as
a
fraternity in the blue lodge, meet on the square and part on the plumb and,
most importantly, treat others fairly and equally. How can we meet on the
square and part on the plumb when we believe ourselves to be better than
someone else: when we have taken it upon ourselves to sit in judgement of
someone be he an "outsider" or not? Do we actually listen to those words or
just recite them because they get repeated twice a month every month? Yes,
it
is true that in petitioning a lodge one's moral and ethical standards are
questioned. This is done to maintain harmony within the lodge room, and why
we
have the black ball (so someone can air their personal prejudices against
someone anonymously). But, that's as far as it goes. Freemasonry, as a
whole,
has a hard enough time initiating new members and getting attendees to
regular
lodge communications without brothers taking the airs of moral superiority.
So, I reiterate "didn't someone once say 'Let he who is without sin...'"
Let me bring to light a story that brought this a little closer to home. In
my
blue lodge a brother was initiated. This brother is gay, homosexual,
whatever
you want to call it. I wasn't aware at the time that he was petitioning (it
was during a twelve month or so span that I just didn't get out to attend
lodge). In the two years prior to my leaving Wyoming, in which I got to know
him in the lodge, I came to see that he represented what freemasonry is
supposed to be; as he gave both of his time and self for the benefit of the
order, serving with distinction as Chaplain and Steward. The point being
that
I'm glad to this day that I wasn't there, because I probably would have
black
balled him. But, I have seen so very few initiates or long-term brothers
take
to the fraternity with such zeal and represent it with such ambassadorship.
Oh, just so everyone knows, Tim Allen was convicted of possession of drugs
when
he was in college. Since then, he has paid his debt, become a family man,
and
established himself and a very popular and successful comic and actor. So,
I
would seriously doubt that any PSA for one of our hospital units was done by
requirement of probation. Did anyone research to find out of it was done
because he was helped or someone in his family or family friend was helped
by
the hospitals? Further, if he is a freemason, which I don't know (but am
curious about), if his own blue lodge or Grand Lodge didn't have a problem
with
it, why would anyone here? I believe someone of his stature makes a great
spokesman for the hospitals. Believe me, we could do so much more for more
children if more people were aware that our hospitals don't cost families
anything.
David M. Herman
>
> Arrogance is a very strong word to be used in polite discussion. I
> don't want a drug dealer in a fraternity that has so many good and
> honorable men as members. If one of these CREEPS sold drugs to one of
> your loved ones I wonder if you would be so quick to forgive.
> Perhaps,if you post again,you will spare us the advertisement and
> instead inform us of your Masonic affiliation.
> Wallace Jones
> Union#48
> Elkton Md.
Gosh, Bro. Wallace, perhaps you want me out, too. Lord knows I was no angel
when I was younger, although I try to walk a straighter line now. I wonder
how
many good masons today are good masons today because their investigating
committees saw the "diamond in the rough" and decided to take a good (but
perhaps misguided or undisciplined) man and give him the opportunity to
become
better. I know of nothing which would cause me to report unfavorably on a
petition from Tim Allen, but then I haven't met him, either.
Fraternally,
--
David Herman, Worshipful Master, WebMaster: Chamblee Lodge 444, GA, USA
http://morelight.org * AIM/ICQ: LordDavo * mailto:Da...@MasterMason.com
--
CHarris141
>Date: 9/14/1998 10:06 PM Central Daylight Time
>the Shrine is not a
>masonic order although one has to be a master mason to be a shriner
Correct the Shrine is not a Masonic order but you must be a Master Mason plus
either a Knights Templar York Rite or a 32nd degree Scottish Rite (or both) to
become a Shriner.
just a clarification for my jurisdiciton
Christopher A. Harris, MM
McDonald Lodge # 324 AF & AM
Independence, Missouri
York Rite (RAM,RSM, KT), York Rite College (L.C.C.C.Y.), 32nd AASR (SJ), Order
of True Kindred
homepage: http://members.aol.com/CHarris141/mason.html
ICQ # 18767782
Michael Higgins
Wy Akak wrote:
> After careful consideration, I've chosen <<not>> to respond privately this
> topic. Let me explain: in my view, there is no better issue for the good of
> the order than this one, and as such, ought to be discussed openly and
> freely.
>
> The comments (to the extent) were made that if Tim Allen, the comedian, were
> a
> freemason (actually, I believe the term was Shriner, but since we're talking
> freemasonry the distinction needs to be drawn because the Shrine is not a
> masonic order although one has to be a master mason to be a shriner) that he
> ought to be expelled from the order due to having been convicted of
> possession
> of drugs. The comment being made to support this, that freemasonry, as a
> whole, consists of men of a "higher" moral character and a "higher" ethical
> standard. Based upon this, I stand by my statement that this is a horribly
> arrogant attitude to have (and I would seriously have to question what
> motives
> someone with that attitude would have had to petition freemasonry).
The fact remains that no one convicted of a felony is supposed to be initiated
into the Craft and no one convicted of a felony is supposed to be allowed to
remain in the Craft. The question of Tim Allen is an unfortunate one, of course,
since he does show that he has been rehabilitated but I beleive the rules are
fairly straightforward. We are not a charity nor are we a "half-way" house. We
belong to a fraternity with fairly straightforward rules and Allen seems to run
afoul of one of the most basic of them.
> We, as
> a
> fraternity in the blue lodge, meet on the square and part on the plumb and,
> most importantly, treat others fairly and equally. How can we meet on the
> square and part on the plumb when we believe ourselves to be better than
> someone else: when we have taken it upon ourselves to sit in judgement of
> someone be he an "outsider" or not?
We are not "judging" him. We are recognising the fact that a Court of Law has
allready judged him and found him guilty. The accusation is not enough; it is
the conviction that is binding.
> Do we actually listen to those words or
> just recite them because they get repeated twice a month every month? Yes,
> it
> is true that in petitioning a lodge one's moral and ethical standards are
> questioned. This is done to maintain harmony within the lodge room,
No it is not. It is done to ensure that only good men, by and large, will be
admitted to our ranks. It is not a perfect system, by any rate, but it is a
necessary one if we wish to maintain Masonry as an organization concerned with
morality and justice.
> and why
> we
> have the black ball (so someone can air their personal prejudices against
> someone anonymously).
No it is not. The black ball is supposed to be dropped solely for the good of
the Craft. A man who votes only on his personal "prejudices" is acting in an
unMasonic manner. I know it happens but it is wrong.
> I'm glad to this day that I wasn't there, because I probably would have
> black balled him.
I would not. Homosexuality is not a "crime" such as drugdealing is.
NigelBevan
I have been following this thread with interest, but I must ask one question.
Who on earth is Tim Allen??
I have never heard of him as, I am sure, neither have many others this side of the pond.
Regards
Nigel
--
Nigel Bevan PPrSGD
Provincial Grand Librarian and Archivist to the Province of Bristol
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net
>
Brother Herman,
Were you ever convicted of a falony, I think not. There is a world of
difference in "raising a little hell", as we used to say in the south,
and committing serious crimes.
J. Oliver, MM
Kenneth Gibala
Are you suggesting that being convicted of a felony must
preclude one from becoming a memebr of ANY lodge or just YOUR lodge??
BTW this thought has recently been thrashed about over at the
Philaethes List which is reserved exclusively for Master Masons and
can handle pretty much any maonic subject.
S&F,
Kenneth Gibala, PM, MPS
Secretary
International Friendship Chapter
Philalethes Society
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote in message
<35fed9c1...@nntp.prolynx.com>...
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net
>
My original statement posted here stands. Deeds, both good and bad
follow you through life. IMHO your way of thinking is one of the
problems we, as a nation, have today. People in the public eye committ
crimes of every sort, get slaped on the wrist and all is forgiven, and
our children look up to these people. Our prez is now rependent and
sorry for his actions. Right! Wrong, Hes sorry he got caught. If you
want to dance you pay the band!!! Just my thoughts.
J. Oliver, MM
> After careful consideration, I've chosen <<not>> to respond privately this
> topic. Let me explain: in my view, there is no better issue for the good of
> the order than this one, and as such, ought to be discussed openly and
> freely.
>
> The comments (to the extent) were made that if Tim Allen, the comedian, were
> a
> freemason (actually, I believe the term was Shriner, but since we're talking
> freemasonry the distinction needs to be drawn because the Shrine is not a
> masonic order although one has to be a master mason to be a shriner) that he
> ought to be expelled from the order due to having been convicted of
> possession
> of drugs. The comment being made to support this, that freemasonry, as a
> whole, consists of men of a "higher" moral character and a "higher" ethical
> standard. Based upon this, I stand by my statement that this is a horribly
> arrogant attitude to have (and I would seriously have to question what
> motives
> someone with that attitude would have had to petition freemasonry). We, as
> a
> fraternity in the blue lodge, meet on the square and part on the plumb and,
> most importantly, treat others fairly and equally. How can we meet on the
> square and part on the plumb when we believe ourselves to be better than
> someone else: when we have taken it upon ourselves to sit in judgement of
> someone be he an "outsider" or not? Do we actually listen to those words or
> just recite them because they get repeated twice a month every month? Yes,
> it
> is true that in petitioning a lodge one's moral and ethical standards are
> questioned. This is done to maintain harmony within the lodge room, and why
> we
> have the black ball (so someone can air their personal prejudices against
> someone anonymously). But, that's as far as it goes. Freemasonry, as a
> whole,
> has a hard enough time initiating new members and getting attendees to
> regular
> lodge communications without brothers taking the airs of moral superiority.
>
> So, I reiterate "didn't someone once say 'Let he who is without sin...'"
>
> Let me bring to light a story that brought this a little closer to home. In
> my
> blue lodge a brother was initiated. This brother is gay, homosexual,
> whatever
> you want to call it. I wasn't aware at the time that he was petitioning (it
> was during a twelve month or so span that I just didn't get out to attend
> lodge). In the two years prior to my leaving Wyoming, in which I got to know
> him in the lodge, I came to see that he represented what freemasonry is
> supposed to be; as he gave both of his time and self for the benefit of the
> order, serving with distinction as Chaplain and Steward. The point being
> that
> I'm glad to this day that I wasn't there, because I probably would have
> black
Floyd Dennis
>
>I have been following this thread with interest, but I must ask one question.
>
>Who on earth is Tim Allen??
>
>I have never heard of him as, I am sure, neither have many others this side of the pond.
<snip>
A popular comedian/actor in America. Has the television show "Home
Improvement" made it over there yet?
David M. Herman
>
> David M. Herman wrote:
> >
> Brother Herman,
>
> Were you ever convicted of a falony, I think not. There is a world
> of difference in "raising a little hell", as we used to say in the
> south, and committing serious crimes.
>
> J. Oliver, MM
>
no big deal way back then are considered very serious now.
For example: driving drunk (DUI/DWI) and not getting cought, or getting
cought, or having an accident without deaths while driving drunk, or killing
someone while driving drunk - in each of these, the original crime would be
driving drunk, and whether no (official) crime, a misdemeanor or a felony
would depend on the actions of others as much as one's own.
What I'm saying, or trying to, is that I would have to seriously consider
someone's felony conviction if investigating him; but that his actions since
then _might_ be important enough and impressive enough to outweigh the distant
past. Or they might not.
AUBREY BROWN SR
What's the email for the Philalethes list? Thanx!
--
Past Master Aubrey Brown Sr.
Eureka Lodge No. 64 F&AM
Grand Historian MWPHGL of IL
aubrey...@worldnet.att.net
Kenneth Gibala wrote in message <360837a...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
>Bro. Oliver,
>
> Are you suggesting that being convicted of a felony must
>preclude one from becoming a memebr of ANY lodge or just YOUR lodge??
>
> BTW this thought has recently been thrashed about over at the
>Philaethes List which is reserved exclusively for Master Masons and
>can handle pretty much any maonic subject.
>
>S&F,
>
>Kenneth Gibala, PM, MPS
>Secretary
>International Friendship Chapter
>Philalethes Society
>
>
>Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote in message
><35fed9c1...@nntp.prolynx.com>...
>>CodeEl...@Worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>>>
>>If you want to dance you pay the piper. If you want to sell drugs
>(be
>>convicted of a felony) then the price of dancing is YOU WILL NOT BE
>MADE
>>A MASON. Serving time does not erease the fact that you committed
>the
>>crime. If our children were taught that there is, in fact, penalties
>>that follow you throughout life for deeds committed, both good and
>bad,
>>just maybe we would have a better world. Just my thoughts.
>>
>>J. Oliver, MM
>>
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net
>
I don't know about other Grand Jurisdictions but to the best of my
knowledge you cannot be made a Mason in the state of Florida if
convicted of a felony. I'm sure there might be exceptions from GL but
the is standard. Comments from Florida Masons (and others) welcome.
J. Oliver, MM
Lyle Rooff
>
> Are you suggesting that being convicted of a felony must
>preclude one from becoming a memebr of ANY lodge or just YOUR lodge??
>
> BTW this thought has recently been thrashed about over at the
>Philaethes List which is reserved exclusively for Master Masons and
>can handle pretty much any maonic subject.
>
Eliyahu Rooff
Blue Mountain #13
Walla Walla WA
Lyle Rooff
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote in message
<360a37b...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
>>
>My original statement posted here stands. Deeds, both good and bad
>follow you through life.
>J. Oliver, MM
>
If I might disagree slightly, one of the problems we have is that the only
deeds that seem to follow one through life any more are the bad ones.
Otherwise, we could look at the person's life in its entirety rather than
just focusing on the bad. Does one indiscretion, a single error of
judgement, permanently outweigh any amount of good a person has done? Does
it make him "spoiled goods," with no hope of social redemption? If we are to
judge the person's worth solely on that bad deed, where is the incentive to
improve himself, to atone for it by meritorious deeds?
Lwchavis
I have been following this thread with interest. In the jurisdiction of the
Grand Lodge of Mississippi, lodges have little choice in this situation -- a
man who has served time in a penitentiary cannot be made a Mason, unless he
has
received a pardon, with restoration of his citizenship, according to the
1983
Digest of Laws of the G. L.
Respectfully,
Larry W. Chavis, 32°
D'Lo Lodge #230
G.L. of Mississippi F.& A.M.
A.A.S.R. Valley of Jackson
NiceGuy AKA Phil
> After careful consideration, I've chosen <<not>> to respond privately this
> topic. Let me explain: in my view, there is no better issue for the good
of
> the order than this one, and as such, ought to be discussed openly and
> freely.
>
> The comments (to the extent) were made that if Tim Allen, the comedian,
were
> a
> freemason (actually, I believe the term was Shriner, but since we're
talking
> freemasonry the distinction needs to be drawn because the Shrine is not a
> masonic order although one has to be a master mason to be a shriner) that
he
> ought to be expelled from the order due to having been convicted of
> possession
> of drugs. The comment being made to support this, that freemasonry, as a
> whole, consists of men of a "higher" moral character and a "higher"
ethical
> standard. Based upon this, I stand by my statement that this is a
horribly
> arrogant attitude to have (and I would seriously have to question what
> motives
> someone with that attitude would have had to petition freemasonry).
The fact remains that no one convicted of a felony is supposed to be
initiated
into the Craft and no one convicted of a felony is supposed to be allowed to
remain in the Craft. The question of Tim Allen is an unfortunate one, of
course,
since he does show that he has been rehabilitated but I beleive the rules
are
fairly straightforward. We are not a charity nor are we a "half-way" house.
We
belong to a fraternity with fairly straightforward rules and Allen seems to
run
afoul of one of the most basic of them.
> We, as
> a
> fraternity in the blue lodge, meet on the square and part on the plumb
and,
> most importantly, treat others fairly and equally. How can we meet on the
> square and part on the plumb when we believe ourselves to be better than
> someone else: when we have taken it upon ourselves to sit in judgement of
> someone be he an "outsider" or not?
We are not "judging" him. We are recognising the fact that a Court of Law
has
allready judged him and found him guilty. The accusation is not enough; it
is
the conviction that is binding.
> Do we actually listen to those words or
> just recite them because they get repeated twice a month every month? Yes,
> it
> is true that in petitioning a lodge one's moral and ethical standards are
> questioned. This is done to maintain harmony within the lodge room,
No it is not. It is done to ensure that only good men, by and large, will be
admitted to our ranks. It is not a perfect system, by any rate, but it is a
necessary one if we wish to maintain Masonry as an organization concerned
with
morality and justice.
> and why
> we
> have the black ball (so someone can air their personal prejudices against
> someone anonymously).
No it is not. The black ball is supposed to be dropped solely for the good
of
the Craft. A man who votes only on his personal "prejudices" is acting in an
unMasonic manner. I know it happens but it is wrong.
> I'm glad to this day that I wasn't there, because I probably would have
> black balled him.
I would not. Homosexuality is not a "crime" such as drugdealing is.
Signed, Michael Higgins
I totally concur with Michael Higgins, however let me throw in another
monkey wrench into the mix.
Is the Fraternity to consider other Convicted Felons for membership? I'll
just use one example. Should the Fraternity except a petition from a
rehabilitated murderer? One that has paid his debt to society, by spending
the minimum amount of time in prison. Even though the person is not a
celebrity.
Signed,
NiceGuy, AKA Phil
Lyle Rooff
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote in message
<360737a...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
>David M. Herman wrote:
>>
>Brother Herman,
>
>Were you ever convicted of a falony, I think not. There is a world of
>difference in "raising a little hell", as we used to say in the south,
>and committing serious crimes.
>
>J. Oliver, MM
>
Over the past few decades, we have criminalized many things that used to be
legal, although of questionable morality. Dumping over an outhouse on
halloween is now called "malicious mischief" and is a gross misdemeanor in
Washington State. Striking one's spouse used to be lawful, and is now
"domestic violence", a felony. Few of us have gotten through life without
committing some act that, if seen by police, could have resulted in a
criminal conviction, and we need to remember this when we start to think
that we're somehow "better" than one who has made a mistake and paid for it.
Wallace & Ruth Jones
>
> Wallace & Ruth Jones wrote:
> >
> > Arrogance is a very strong word to be used in polite discussion. I
> > don't want a drug dealer in a fraternity that has so many good and
> > honorable men as members. If one of these CREEPS sold drugs to one of
> > your loved ones I wonder if you would be so quick to forgive.
> > Perhaps,if you post again,you will spare us the advertisement and
> > instead inform us of your Masonic affiliation.
> > Wallace Jones
> > Union#48
> > Elkton Md.
>
> Gosh, Bro. Wallace, perhaps you want me out, too. Lord knows I was no angel
> when I was younger, although I try to walk a straighter line now. I wonder
> how
> many good masons today are good masons today because their investigating
> committees saw the "diamond in the rough" and decided to take a good (but
> perhaps misguided or undisciplined) man and give him the opportunity to
> become
> better. I know of nothing which would cause me to report unfavorably on a
> petition from Tim Allen, but then I haven't met him, either.
>
> Fraternally,
>
> David Herman, Worshipful Master, WebMaster: Chamblee Lodge 444, GA, USA
> http://morelight.org * AIM/ICQ: LordDavo * mailto:Da...@MasterMason.com
>
> --
Gosh, Bro. David
You can have a drug dealer in your Lodge but I WON'T have one in mine.
I've been in the Merchant Marine for a long time. So I've probably
raised a roof or two in my day. No drugs!!
My understanding was he got busted for selling. I can forgive use. I
can't and won't forgive dealing. I know what I'm talking about. I wish
I didn't.
Fraternally
Edward Punt
conviction how do we look upon those brothers who fought for the
Confederacy during the Civil War? I belive that rising in arms against
your country is called treason. Last I heard treason is a felony.
Edward Punt
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> David M. Herman wrote:
> >
> Brother Herman,
>
> Were you ever convicted of a falony, I think not. There is a world of
> difference in "raising a little hell", as we used to say in the south,
> and committing serious crimes.
>
> J. Oliver, MM
>
Roy Feltner
are and your GL's Constitution's Laws and Edict's. In some jurisdictions the
Ballot box is all that keeps a felon from becoming a mason, in Missouri it
is an automatic suspension if convicted of a felony, But the felon can be
voted back in by the ballot box.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lyle Rooff <lro...@bmi.net>
Newsgroups: soc.org.freemasonry
Date: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [sof] Re: Tim Allen a Shriner?
Michael Higgins
the Civil
War, but that is just my perception as Past Master. ;-)
No one has so far challenged my assertion that the Fraternity itself
prohibits
membership to people of low moral character AND/OR criminal records.
We are not a "redemptive or rehabilitative" society but a fraternity of men
of like
minds seeking to improve ourselves to the benefit of ourselves, our family
and our
society. If someone does suffer denial of membership because of his past,
that may
be unfortunate but so it goes.
Tim Allen, by the way, may have rehabilitated himself to the extent that he
is a
successful celebrity but that, in and of itself, does not mean he is a
suitable
candidate for membership, assuming it ever occurred to him to petition a
lodge. I
know men who will tell you that they have celebrated decades of sobriety,
but that
doesn't mean that they are not alcoholics. It just means that they have been
able,
with the aid of others and God's blessing, to refrain from backsliding. I do
not
mean to imply that there is anything at all criminal in Tim Allen's current
life
but I suggest that celebrity does not qualify one for membership. It is good
character and a firm beleif in God that does that.
CHarris141
In Missouri a convicted Felon can not be made a Mason, niether can a man who
owns and operates a liquor store.
Lwchavis
>From: Edward Punt <erp...@epix.net>
>how do we look upon those brothers who fought for the
>Confederacy during the Civil War? I belive that rising in arms against
>your country is called treason. Last I heard treason is a felony.
>
>Edward Punt
Well, actually, Jefferson Davis was kept in prison for a couple of years after
the war while they tried to decide if he could be tried on charges of treason.
Salmon P. Chase, Lincoln's war-time Treasury Secretary who became Chief Justice
of the Supreme Court afterward, stated that secession was not rebellion (this
from one who had vigorously supported the war effort), and it was the consensus
of the legal scholars of the North that Davis could NOT be tried for treason --
and he wasn't.
Kenneth Gibala
Please allow me to comment on the several items of your posting..
---------------------
Michael Higgins wrote in message
<361c6c2e...@nntp.prolynx.com>...
>It may seem that some of my Brothers act and talk as if they did
fight in
>the Civil
>War, but that is just my perception as Past Master. ;-)
>
>No one has so far challenged my assertion that the Fraternity itself
>prohibits
>membership to people of low moral character AND/OR criminal records.
>
>We are not a "redemptive or rehabilitative" society but a fraternity
of men
>of like
>minds seeking to improve ourselves to the benefit of ourselves, our
family
>and our
>society. If someone does suffer denial of membership because of his
past,
>that may
>be unfortunate but so it goes.
I absolutely agree that we are not a redemptive society or social
club. We are a brotherhood that is dedicated to looking after the
brothers of the lodge and rendering compassionate assistance when
necessary. Our masonic law IMHO is far more severe than is common
Civil or Criminal Law therefore when one may through errors be found
not guilty of a crime teh member can always be tried for unmasonic
conduct and be punished according to a vote of the lodge. On the flip
side when one is found technically guilty of something the lodge
should have the right to pass its own judgement. To preclude or
prevent a lodge from passing judgement IMHO only weakens the whole
structure of masonry by excusing the members of such an important
decision. The few decisions made at the ldoge level the fewer
decision are ever made and the weaker becomes the whole organization.
I am not that concerned as much with the the petitioner for the
degrees as I am for the member or the one wishing to affiliate. IMO a
strict investigation and examination by the lodge should be required
for all petitions and when any member if convicted of anything he
should be sumarily tried for unmasonic conduct and stand to the final
decision of his brethren.
>> conviction how do we look upon those brothers who fought for the
>> Confederacy during the Civil War? I belive that rising in arms
against
>> your country is called treason. Last I heard treason is a felony.
>>
>> Edward Punt
---- A most intriguing argument Bro, Ed Punt presents. As I have sat
in lodge on ocassion with two brothers who have been sentenced by
revolutionary tribunals I have developed a special consideration for
old fashioned masonic law. Masonic law IMHO is far stricter and far
fairer than common civil or criminal law. While Anerican Freemasons
must abide and honor both the Civil and Criminal Laws of our land so
must they be governed by the Masonic Law. IMHO the recent tendency
that provides masonic law may be replaced by local criminal law is
quite dangerous and threatens to further undermine the fabric of the
fraternity.
S&F,
Ken Gibala
NiceGuy AKA Phil
snip
It would seem that they ought to either welcome him back or hold a masonic
trial on the matter and put it to a vote. OTOH, is it proper to try someone
for something when the State courts have already ruled that he was not
guilty? Opinions, anyone?
Eliyahu Rooff
Bro. Roof,
I think he should be censured. :)
S&F
NiceGuy, AKA Phil
NiceGuy AKA Phil
You can have a drug dealer in your Lodge but I WON'T have one in mine.
I've been in the Merchant Marine for a long time. So I've probably
raised a roof or two in my day. No drugs!!
My understanding was he got busted for selling. I can forgive use. I
can't and won't forgive dealing. I know what I'm talking about. I wish
I didn't.
Fraternally
Dear brother Jones,
I totally agree with you. I don't want a drug dealer in my lodge or any
other lodge for that matter. As it is common place for Masons to travel. I
wouldn't want to be exposed to such an element. Statistics show an 80%
return to Prison of those released for any reason. The criminal mind of
today feels he won't get caught the next time. I know this cause I worked in
Law enforcement for a number of years and for someone to get into prison is
a long road from the first time. As we have said, my days were filled with
some mischief as well as the next guy but knowing when to stop is the tricky
part.
S&F
NiceGuy, AKA Phil
NiceGuy AKA Phil
I seem to be able to agree with only some of your posts. In this instance
you say that one was able to hit the spouce and it wasn't against the law. I
hate to bust your bubble but wife beating has been against the law since
colonial times. When the stocks and whipping posts were used. And IMHO might
due our country some good if they were brought back into use. I wonder why,
in some countries of the world, the punishment for theft is the loss of a
finger or hand. Cuold it be that from that conviction forward the missing
digit is a teltale badge of dishonesty.
S&F
NiceGuy, AKA Phil
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote in message
<360737a...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
>David M. Herman wrote:
>>
>Brother Herman,
>
>Were you ever convicted of a falony, I think not. There is a world of
>difference in "raising a little hell", as we used to say in the south,
>and committing serious crimes.
>
>J. Oliver, MM
>
Roy Feltner
freemason in Missouri?
Fraternally & Sincerely,
Roy Feltner, Junior Warden
Linn Creek Lodge No. 152
Camdenton, Mo.
-----Original Message-----
From: CHarris141 <charr...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.org.freemasonry
Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [sof] Re: Tim Allen a Shriner?
>
>-----------------------
>To unsubscribe, send am email to sof-r...@valinor.eldar.org, and include
>
>unsubscribe
>
>in the body of that messages
>
>If you need to contact a living person, email sf...@bigfoot.com
>
>To submit an article email it to sof-mod...@webcom.com.au
>
NiceGuy AKA Phil
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BDE216.736B1F40
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Dear Brother Rooff,
I agree that the only deeds seen in todays market place are the bad ones. I
also disagree with you that he knew what he was doing the very instant he
made his first drug sale, we aren't speaking of just one bad deed but a long
period of time prior to him getting nabed by the man.
JMHO
NiceGuy, AKA Phil
Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote in message
<360a37b...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
>>
>My original statement posted here stands. Deeds, both good and bad
>follow you through life.
<snip>>
>J. Oliver, MM
>
If I might disagree slightly, one of the problems we have is that the only
deeds that seem to follow one through life any more are the bad ones.
Otherwise, we could look at the person's life in its entirety rather than
just focusing on the bad. Does one indiscretion, a single error of
judgement, permanently outweigh any amount of good a person has done? Does
it make him "spoiled goods," with no hope of social redemption? If we are to
judge the person's worth solely on that bad deed, where is the incentive to
improve himself, to atone for it by meritorious deeds?
Eliyahu Rooff
Blue Mountain #13
Walla Walla WA
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BDE216.736B1F40
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3DCasque size=3D4>Dear Brother =
Rooff,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3DCasque size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3DCasque size=3D4>I agree that the only =
deeds seen in=20
todays market place are the bad ones. I also disagree with you that he =
knew what=20
he was doing the very instant he made his first drug sale, we aren't =
speaking of=20
just one bad deed but a long period of time prior to him getting nabed =
by the=20
man.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3DCasque size=3D4>JMHO</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3DCasque size=3D4></FONT>NiceGuy, AKA =
Phil<BR><BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net">Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net</A>=
wrote in=20
message<BR><<A=20
href=3D"mailto:360a37b...@nntp.bestweb.net">360a37b...@nntp.bes=
tweb.net</A>>...<BR>>><BR>>My=20
original statement posted here stands. Deeds, both good and=20
bad<BR>>follow you through life.<BR><snip>><BR>>J. =
Oliver,=20
MM<BR>><BR>If I might disagree slightly, one of the problems we have =
is that=20
the only<BR>deeds that seem to follow one through life any more are the =
bad=20
ones.<BR>Otherwise, we could look at the person's life in its entirety =
rather=20
than<BR>just focusing on the bad. Does one indiscretion, a single error=20
of<BR>judgement, permanently outweigh any amount of good a person has =
done?=20
Does<BR>it make him "spoiled goods," with no hope of social=20
redemption? If we are to<BR>judge the person's worth solely on that bad =
deed,=20
where is the incentive to<BR>improve himself, to atone for it by =
meritorious=20
deeds?<BR><BR>Eliyahu Rooff<BR>Blue Mountain #13<BR>Walla Walla=20
WA</DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BDE216.736B1F40--
paul...@lan2wan.com
> In Missouri a convicted Felon can not be made a Mason, niether can a man who
> owns and operates a liquor store.
Now that's ironic, since in most states a convicted felon cannot own or
operate a liquor store.
Paul
Gary S. Colecchio
>judge the person's worth solely on that bad deed, where is the incentive to
>improve himself, to atone for it by meritorious deeds?
Bro. Eliyahu,
You have framed the real question in this thread, albeit circuitously.
Masonry is not concerned with redemption.To paraphrase the old saw: it
takes good men and improves them.
Qualifications for Masonic induction and continuance of membership,
compel us to have a personal history clear of legal and moral
wrongdoing. The former, is in my mind, not difficult to maintain since
crimes are commited of or own free will and accord. (Where have I
heard that before?)
We all must be held accountable for our past actions, if personal
honour means anything to us.
Ours is an exclusive fraternity and has been historically criticized
by the excluded. I take great pride in my selection and passing the
degree work. I would like to think that my efforts to remain a good
man throughout my life reflected my merit for membership.
I wouldn't trade places with Tim Allen for all his fame or money.
Fiat Lux,
Bro. Gary S. Colecchio, K.T.
Palm Lodge #327 F&AM
West Palm Beach Florida
Lyle Rooff
thinking in more general terms of our attitudes as a society. For example,
the person whose misconduct is an out-of-character blemish on an otherwise
exemplary life -- someone who yields to an impulse and shoplifts something,
who makes an ill-thought-out pass at the teenage babysitter, or who panics
and flees from the scene of an accident. Do we decide that any momentary
lapse in judgement should result in being permanently relegated to the dregs
of society, or do we accept that some things could happen in our own lives
in just the same way and help him earn his way back to acceptance and
respect.
While, as has been pointed out on this thread, many felons are doing a life
sentence in installments, never learning from their own mistakes, there are
still those who do learn; men for whom their misconduct was a single
abberation in an otherwise blameless and respectible life. Working in an
office specializing in criminal defense, I've found that there are both
kinds of people who cross our doorway. Some belong in prison and are a
threat to society, while others are no different than you or me, having made
that one mistake and gotten caught at it. Many are sincerely repentant of
their errors, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with the likelihood of
incarceration.
All of us sin in one way or another. The issue is, how can we expect to be
forgiven for our own sins if we cannot forgive others when they repent?
>Dear Brother Rooff,
>
>I agree that the only deeds seen in todays market place are the bad ones. I
>also disagree with you that he knew what he was doing the very instant he
>made his first drug sale, we aren't speaking of just one bad deed but a
long
>period of time prior to him getting nabed by the man.
>JMHO
>NiceGuy, AKA Phil
>
>Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote in message
><360a37b...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
>>>
>>My original statement posted here stands. Deeds, both good and bad
>>follow you through life.
><snip>>
>>J. Oliver, MM
>>
>If I might disagree slightly, one of the problems we have is that the only
>deeds that seem to follow one through life any more are the bad ones.
>Otherwise, we could look at the person's life in its entirety rather than
>just focusing on the bad. Does one indiscretion, a single error of
>judgement, permanently outweigh any amount of good a person has done? Does
>it make him "spoiled goods," with no hope of social redemption? If we are
to
>judge the person's worth solely on that bad deed, where is the incentive to
>improve himself, to atone for it by meritorious deeds?
>
CHarris141
>From: "Roy Feltner" <rfel...@lakeozarks.net>
>Date: 9/17/1998 11:25 AM Central Daylight Time
Sorry, I misread the by-law... I stand corrected...
Sec. 13.090
"Although a man previously convicted of a felony may be made a Mason, it should
be done only if the lodge is convinced, after full investigation that he is a
good man and the fraternity will not suffer in public estimation..."
Bill Siebert
AUBREY BROWN SR wrote in message <35fef46...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
>Michael though
>has been done to have a couple of drinks at a couple of Prince Hall
hangouts
>but doesn't feel he could devote the time and commitment necessary for
>Masonry at this point.
>
And I have a very good idea that if he petitions a Lodge, they'll have to
raise him in a Scottish Rite or Shrine facility to hold all of the Brothers
who want to be present (which would include me if it happens in Michigan).
Bill Siebert
P.M. and Sec., Gladwin #397, F&AM of Michigan
Ill. Grand Steward, Grand Council, R&SM of Michigan
Wy Akak
the only one who sees things that way. My whole point was no freemason
ought
to take on the airs of moral superiority. The fraternity does not need that
kind of belief to add fuel to the fire of those whom are anti-masonic and
those
whom are simply uninformed.
In article <361861a2...@nntp.prolynx.com>, Edward Punt
<erp...@epix.net>
writes:
>If Tim Allen could be denied membership because of a previous drug
>conviction how do we look upon those brothers who fought for the
>Confederacy during the Civil War? I belive that rising in arms against
>your country is called treason. Last I heard treason is a felony.
>
>Edward Punt
>
>Hi-...@oldworldnet.att.net wrote:
>>
>> David M. Herman wrote:
>> >
>> Brother Herman,
>>
>> Were you ever convicted of a falony, I think not. There is a world of
>> difference in "raising a little hell", as we used to say in the south,
>> and committing serious crimes.
>>
>> J. Oliver, MM
>>
---------------------
Carl C. Heffner, Consultant
Accu-Rate Telecommunications Auditing & Consulting
726 W. Van Gogh
Fayetteville, AR 72703-2200
(501) 444-8909
http://www.wefindumoney.com http://www.phonerefund.com
.
AUBREY BROWN SR
Actually in Chgo. our largest facility is the Grand East and most of the
Chgo. Lodges as well as the Consistory meets there. If he comes in, it
would probably be in one of 4 lodges (Eureka being one of course). The
Grand Master would probably make him on sight (a practice that don't agree
with).
--
Past Master Aubrey Brown Sr.
Eureka Lodge No. 64 F&AM
Grand Historian MWPHGL of IL
aubrey...@worldnet.att.net
Bill Siebert wrote in message <36042793...@nntp.bestweb.net>...
Hunter Schappaugh
Edward Punt wrote:
> If Tim Allen could be denied membership because of a previous drug
> conviction how do we look upon those brothers who fought for the
> Confederacy during the Civil War? I belive that rising in arms against
> your country is called treason. Last I heard treason is a felony.
>
> Edward Punt
If you want to get REALLY technical about it, those brothers who fought for
the
CSA during the war were not citizens of the USA. I think the term "Civil
War" is
a misnomer, since the states of the confederacy were no longer members of
the
Union. I believe that is what some people call splitting hairs, but it
could make
for a good ( if not off topic ) thread.
Hunter Schappaugh, 32'
SS, Bellaire Lodge #1336, GL of Texas
AASR, Valley of Houston
NiceGuy AKA Phil
When speaking in the general terms, could you (as any person) not know the
consequences of the first shop lift? Could you in your heart throw out the
vowls of marriage by making a pass at the baby sitter and not know the
consequences. Do you not know that running from the scene of an accident is
wrong.
Sorry brother but wem must face fact with fact. Wrong is wrong, Wheather it
be construde as accidental or not. We as people are taught almost as early
as birth the difference between right and wrong. When a person takes that
step over the line, he or she throws all that training out the window. He or
she takes that chance of disgracing his family and going to a penal
institutation. All this is done because of the on going theroy that they
won't get caught. And just because they (so called) repent we should allow
them entry. As you point out that we should accept that some things could
happen in our lives just as in theirs. Sorry brother I'm not going to lower
myself to the level of a convicted felon no mater what. Raising him to the
level of entry is impossible since his conviction. While your working in an
office specializing in criminal deffence than you already know that persons
incarserated can and do earn a degree in law and pass the bar exam. They
become attorneys. Now just because they have done all that do they have the
expectation of becoming a Mason? I'm reasonably sure there are places they
can gain addmittance, but after all rules are rules. We are not talking
major things here, this is about the person gaining membership in a
fraternity. No other person forced this individual into making that shop
lift or making that pass at the baby sitter. Do you realy think this person
would not do it again if they thought they wouldn't get caught. I rest my
case.
Fraternally
NiceGuy, AKA Phil
Jim Bennie
<Aubrey...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> The
> Grand Master would probably make him on sight (a practice that don't agree
> with).
I know this is an off-handed comment, Aubrey, but let's look
at it seriously...
Why should this be? Just because he did a sit-com? Doesn't that,
say something about who people idolise in the world today?
I thought Masons believed that he who is placed upon the lower spoke
of fortune's wheel is as entitled to our regard as he who has
attained the highest. Why a special privilege for a guy on TV?
Jim Bennie
PM Nos. 44 & 65, Vancouver
(I'm on TV daily, too).
Brian Elliott
Hunter Schappaugh <hunt...@wt.net> wrote in article
<360535e5...@nntp.prolynx.com>...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What about those who fought in the Revolutionary War? This, "to split
hairs" , was a treasonous coup d'etat against a legal colonial government.
Defining who is, or is not, the traitor in this type of situation depends
entirely on your point of view.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AUBREY BROWN SR
No my post was regarding a question about if (when) Michael Jordan petitions
for the degrees. But your comments would still stand forth with him as
well. Like I said, I don't really agree with the Making on sight. But I do
respect the GM's right to do such. BTW, if you or I had special
prerogatives that no one else had, we'd probably be chomping at the bits to
use them too.
--
Past Master Aubrey Brown Sr.
Eureka Lodge No. 64 F&AM
Grand Historian MWPHGL of IL
aubrey...@worldnet.att.net
Jim Bennie wrote in message <36072a1c...@nntp.prolynx.com>...