originalism
Arnold Zwicky
different sorts of examples (both of which the toronto panda objects
to): the "PIN number" ("ATM machine", "HIV virus", etc.) type; and
"five-month anniversary". the objection in both cases is that the
expressions deviate from the original (and therefore "true") usage:
"PIN" IS "personal identification number", so that "PIN number"
is redundant; and an "anniversary" IS "the date on which an event took
place in a previous year" (NOAD2), so that an anniversary measured
in months is a contradiction.
but usage changes, often drifting very far from the original. a "journal"
can come out quarterly (as the journal Language does) rather than daily,
despite the origin of the word in french, based on "jour" 'day'. "pedestrian"
can be used as an adjective meaning 'lacking in inspiration, dull',
with no reference to walking (in the latin root "ped-" 'foot'). and so
on for many thousands of other examples.
people object to such usages when they are relatively recent innovations,
or are perceived to be. but there are always good reasons for the
innovations, reasons that the objectors fail to appreciate (so that
they see the innovations as arising from laziness, irrationality, and
the like).
no one is saying that you should pick up these usages yourself; that's
your taste. but raging against people who use them is just unattractive,
and in no way helpful.
take "five-month anniversary". such expressions provide a way of
talking about memorable days in terms of their distance, in some
unit of time, from an original date. this is what "anniversary"
does for distance in years, and english has no simple expression
that does this for distance in smaller units (months or weeks),
so it's natural to extend the usage of "anniversary" to such
cases. (the history is similar to that of "journal".)
the usage is now recognized by NOAD2, which labels it "informal"
and defines it as "the date on which a romance began in a previous
month or week". (not everyone restricts it to use in romantic
contexts.)
as for "PIN number" and the like, what happens is that alphabetic
abbreviations (acronyms and initialisms), once devised, are
learned as units, so that people tend to see them as names of
certain types of things, and consequently to supply the type label as
well as the specific label: a PIN is a kind of number (or identifier,
etc.), an ATM is a kind of machine (or teller, etc.), and so on.
people often know a number of alphabetic abbreviations as units,
without having any real appreciation of their sources (nor should
they be expected to). a colleague reports that all of her
undergraduate students know that "GOP" refers to the Republican
party, but none of them know what "GOP" originally stood for
(in this case, it's reasonable to say that "GOP" now doesn't
STAND FOR anything; it's just a name on its own).
oh yes: "Grand Old Party".
b a in p a
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
> no one is saying that you should pick up these usages yourself; that's
> your taste. but raging against people who use them is just unattractive,
> and in no way helpful.
I must not judge my own performance, of course, but I'm not sure I'd
characterise my four not-lengthy posts (the original one-liner and
three follow-ups) as "raging", particularly since in two of the three
I draw a distinction between people using phrases as they will, and my
own preferred usage. If I was going to "rage", I'd use much more
emphatic language. And I'm not sure where "helpfulness" comes into
the discussion.
but, having been chidden (if that's the correct past tense), I'll say
no more.
chemist by day, panda by night
back to next term's lab manual
Mike McKinley
message
news:e608c6be-86e5-4981...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
In _King John_ by The Bard, Prince Arthur says at one point, "I have
chide away my friend." Chide, not being pronounced as we do commonly (if
one may say that such term is common), but, according to the Director *WHO*
*KNEW* *ALL* he instructed the actor to say it to rhyme with id.
We also learned to pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her," perhaps to
distinguished it from "ere."
Therefore, I would say that raging or not, you have been chidden. But
not "chaidden."
MissIambicPentameterKinley
Ken Rudolph
>
> but, having been chidden (if that's the correct past tense), I'll say
> no more.
Should I be chidden (or maybe even chid?) for always using "chided"?
--Ken Rudolph
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
> > but, having been chidden (if that's the correct past tense), I'll say
> > no more.
> Should I be chidden (or maybe even chid?) for always using "chided"?
I think it depends on whether the chids were hanging or not
manly i demand a recount panda
Joe Fineman
> people object to such usages when they are relatively recent
> innovations, or are perceived to be. but there are always good
> reasons for the innovations, reasons that the objectors fail to
> appreciate (so that they see the innovations as arising from
> laziness, irrationality, and the like).
Always? Do laziness, irrationality, and the like have no influence
whatever on language innovation? If so, then languange innovation is
unlike any other kind of human behavior -- except, of course, market
behavior (economists, like linguists, having an irrational bias in
favor of assuming rationality in their objects of study).
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: inanimate :||
||: inaminute :||
Robert S. Coren
>zwicky@.stanford.edu (Arnold Zwicky) writes:
>
>> people object to such usages when they are relatively recent
>> innovations, or are perceived to be. but there are always good
>> reasons for the innovations, reasons that the objectors fail to
>> appreciate (so that they see the innovations as arising from
>> laziness, irrationality, and the like).
>
>Always? Do laziness, irrationality, and the like have no influence
>whatever on language innovation?
Are laziness, irrationality, and the like, never good reasons?
--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"I feel like my brain was run over by a lawnmower. That was really
excellent." --Rider getting off a roller coaster, as seen on The
Learning Channel
Ann Burlingham
> We also learned to pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her,"
Err, yes.
--
What use was it having all that money if you could never sit still
or just watch your cattle eating grass?
- Alexander McCall Smith, _The No.1 Ladies' Detective Agency_
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
[]
> We also learned to pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her,"
Doesn't it already? :)
> MissIambicPentameterKinley
I'm more dactylic.
--
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it." -Richard Dawkins
Mike Jankulak
>"Mike McKinley" <mp...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
>> We also learned to pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her,"
>
>Err, yes.
I pronounce "err" to rhyme with "hair." Then again, I pronounce
pretty much everything (e.g., far, tire, pomegranate) to rhyme
with "hair." Dunno why, exactly, I'm just quirky that way.
--
"Your Uncle Albert and I had a whirlpool romance,"
Aunt Ruthie tells me. Then she pauses. "Is that
the word I mean?" -- Patricia Volk
Cornelia Wyngaarden
<jo...@verizon.net> wrote:
Oh phaw! rationality is sooo 20th century!
corry
Robert S. Coren
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) <d4g...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Mike McKinley <mp...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>[]
>> We also learned to pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her,"
>
>Doesn't it already? :)
>
>> MissIambicPentameterKinley
>
>I'm more dactylic.
I like a man with toes.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"You ain't seen from animus." --Ken Rudolph
Arnold Zwicky
<jo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>zwicky@.stanford.edu (Arnold Zwicky) writes:
part of the problem here is that characterizations like "laziness" are
loaded. everyone understands that brevity and clarity are important
(but opposed) motives in language use and are central factors driving
innovation, but when people like the results they recommend that
speakers Omit Needless Words (brevity) and Include All Necessary
Words (clarity), while when they don't like the results they
describe what's going on as "laziness" (brevity) or "wordiness"
(clarity). (similar things can be said for the factors of regularity
vs. conservatism.)
w m in ca
Michael Palmer
zwicky@.stanford.edu (Arnold Zwicky) wrote:
>take "five-month anniversary". such expressions provide a way of
>talking about memorable days in terms of their distance, in some
>unit of time, from an original date. this is what "anniversary"
>does for distance in years, and english has no simple expression
>that does this for distance in smaller units (months or weeks),
mensiversary, wochen/tageswiederkehr
--
Michael Palmer
Claremont, California
mpa...@panix.com
Arnold Zwicky
michael palmer <mpa...@panix.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:32:49 +0000 (UTC), in soc.motss,
>zwicky@.stanford.edu (Arnold Zwicky) wrote:
>>take "five-month anniversary". such expressions provide a way of
>>talking about memorable days in terms of their distance, in some
>>unit of time, from an original date. this is what "anniversary"
>>does for distance in years, and english has no simple expression
>>that does this for distance in smaller units (months or weeks),
>mensiversary, wochen/tageswiederkehr
my usual suggestion to people who are looking for a word that english
doesn't have is to try "foon" first. "foon" goes with anything.
w m
Ann Burlingham
> Ann Burlingham <an...@panix.com> wrote:
> >"Mike McKinley" <mp...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
> >> We also learned to pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her,"
> >
> >Err, yes.
>
> I pronounce "err" to rhyme with "hair." Then again, I pronounce
> pretty much everything (e.g., far, tire, pomegranate) to rhyme
> with "hair." Dunno why, exactly, I'm just quirky that way.
Quairky.
Frank McQuarry
> jank...@panix.com (Mike Jankulak) writes:
>> Ann Burlingham <an...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> "Mike McKinley" <mp...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
>>>> We also learned to pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her,"
>>> Err, yes.
>> I pronounce "err" to rhyme with "hair." Then again, I pronounce
>> pretty much everything (e.g., far, tire, pomegranate) to rhyme
>> with "hair." Dunno why, exactly, I'm just quirky that way.
>
> Quairky.
>
McQuairky.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
> jank...@panix.com (Mike Jankulak) writes:
>> Ann Burlingham <an...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> "Mike McKinley" <mp...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
>>>> We also learned to pronounce "err" to rhyme with "her,"
>>> Err, yes.
>> I pronounce "err" to rhyme with "hair." Then again, I pronounce
>> pretty much everything (e.g., far, tire, pomegranate) to rhyme
>> with "hair." Dunno why, exactly, I'm just quirky that way.
>
> Quairky.
>
From "Pal Joey":
"Zip! English people don't say clerk, they say clark.
Zip! Anybody who says clark is a jark!"
--
Frank in Seattle
____
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"Millennium hand and shrimp."
Michael Palmer
zwicky@.stanford.edu (Arnold Zwicky) wrote:
>in article <489bb76c...@news.panix.com>,
>michael palmer <mpa...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:32:49 +0000 (UTC), in soc.motss,
> >zwicky@.stanford.edu (Arnold Zwicky) wrote:
>
> >>take "five-month anniversary". such expressions provide a way of
> >>talking about memorable days in terms of their distance, in some
> >>unit of time, from an original date. this is what "anniversary"
> >>does for distance in years, and english has no simple expression
> >>that does this for distance in smaller units (months or weeks),
>
> >mensiversary, wochen/tageswiederkehr
>
>my usual suggestion to people who are looking for a word that english
>doesn't have is to try "foon" first. "foon" goes with anything.
Just so's it goes with hollandaise.
Ann Burlingham
> my usual suggestion to people who are looking for a word that english
> doesn't have is to try "foon" first. "foon" goes with anything.
Tonight's bedtime reading included
And you'll now meet the Foon! The Remarkable Foon
Who eats sizzling hot pebbles that fall off the moon!
And the reason he likes them red hot, it appears,
Is he greatly enjoys blowing smoke from his ears.
I thought of Arnold while reading
Then I'll let Sneelock of for a few minutes' rest
While high over your heads you will see the best best
Of the world's finest, fanciest Breezy Trapeezing!
My Zoom-a-Zoop Troupe from West Upper Ben-Deezing
Who never quite know, while they zoop and they zoom,
Whether which will catch what one, or who will catch whom
Or if who will catch which by the what and just where,
Or just when and just how in which part of the air!
The Doctor called Seuss, of course, in _If I ran the circus_.