Gay Games
David W. Fenton
: Our evening ended in bed, with strawberries and icecream.
This is just the most delightful image, I just wanted to see it posted
again.
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Ned Deily
>I seem to remember that Douglas Adams (of "Hitchhiker..." fame)
>posted here for a while. Then there was Keanu Reeves ;-)
Let's not forget budding young celeb shutter-bug, Smiling ModBob,
purvertor to mags, aquanuts, and book publishers, with fans both
here and abroad. Craig and Apache guard my bed.
And Jeeves, one of the select few who can push movies stars around.
--
Ned Deily,
n...@visi.com -- []
Michael
>
> Well, I didn't make it this time (thank goodness I didn't try, or
> I'd be bankrupt right now), but I'm starting a little savings fund
> for Sydney in 2002. No rugby, but perhaps some Bridge. Mebbe they'll
> add Scrabble to the roster
Scrabble could never be an Olympic or Gay Games event, because:
what language would they play in?
Mik, wondering if "shopping" could become a Gay Games event
Michael
Leith Chu wrote in message <35DB22BA...@pei.sympatico.ca>...
>
> Which is odd, since nowadays neither the Americans nor the Canadians
> (hint, hint) have been able to dominate the sport internationally. In
> glb sportsdom are the Swedes, for instance, not competitive in ice
> hockey?
You have to realise that glb sports are MUCH less organised in
Europe than they are in the US (or Canada). And if anything's
organised, it's usually per country. Sweden has a population
smaller than LA or NYC, but the country's quite big, so if it's
not easy to find a team in LA or NYC, you can imagine that
it's almost impossible in Sweden.
To give you an example of organisation: the Dutch - semi-finalist
at the WC Football (soccer), and a country where the Football
Association has more members than all other sports associations
together - had a difficult time to even form ONE men's
football team in the Gay Games competition...
Mik
D Lewis
>I seem to remember that Douglas Adams (of "Hitchhiker..." fame)
>posted here for a while. Then there was Keanu Reeves ;-)
HBO (later USA Network) series? Wow ... so those j/o fantasies weren't
totally wasted on a straight person.
(Come to think of it ... what *has* "The Hitchhiker" host been doing
during the 1990s???)
--Dennis
probably revealing how totally clueless he is at the moment
Nelson Minar
there's also people who have had real impact on GLOB's lives. Louie
Crew is the main one to come to mind, just because he's such a nice
guy. There's also Rex Wockner (ok, so his posts are obnoxious, but you
have to admit he's a good newshound) and Jeff Epperly.
For geek celebrities, I nominate Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen.
Leith Chu
> Clayton Colwell wrote in message <35dad...@feed1.realtime.net>...
> > Well, I didn't make it this time (thank goodness I didn't try, or
> > I'd be bankrupt right now), but I'm starting a little savings fund
> > for Sydney in 2002. No rugby, but perhaps some Bridge. Mebbe they'll
> > add Scrabble to the roster
> Scrabble could never be an Olympic or Gay Games event, because:
> what language would they play in?
Chinese.
Leith "how much is the "damn" tile worth, again?" Chu
Leith Chu
> Clayton Colwell wrote:
> > From what little I've found, Team Austin did pretty good in Rowing
> > (4 golds and 2 silvers, I believe), and a person from Houston got
> > bronze in Bridge. (None were soc.motssers, though.)
> There's a *bridge* competition? Maybe I should try to get a team
> together for Sydney in 2002!
Team soc.motss, anybody? The first virtual team in the Games?
Leith "swiss teams, knockout, board-a-match, pairs, swiss pairs, or
individual?" Chu
Scott A. Safier
>
> Michael wrote:
> > Scrabble could never be an Olympic or Gay Games event, because:
> > what language would they play in?
>
> Chinese.
>
> Leith "how much is the "damn" tile worth, again?" Chu
No dear, that's Mah Jong. And besides, I'm sure that you don't play it
the correct Jewish way, do you?
Clayton Colwell
: Clayton Colwell wrote in message <35dad...@feed1.realtime.net>...
: >
: > Well, I didn't make it this time (thank goodness I didn't try, or
: > I'd be bankrupt right now), but I'm starting a little savings fund
: > for Sydney in 2002. No rugby, but perhaps some Bridge. Mebbe they'll
: > add Scrabble to the roster
: Scrabble could never be an Olympic or Gay Games event, because:
: what language would they play in?
English, of course, given the country of the game's origin. (Yes,
there is an International Scrabble Tournament. They play in
English.)
****** Clay Colwell (aka StealthSmurf) ********** er...@bga.com ******
* "In the future, we will recognize software crashes as technologically *
* mandated ergonomic rest breaks - and we will pay extra for them." *
* -- Crazy Uncle Joe Hannibal *
Clayton Colwell
: Clayton Colwell wrote:
: > From what little I've found, Team Austin did pretty good in Rowing
: > (4 golds and 2 silvers, I believe), and a person from Houston got
: > bronze in Bridge. (None were soc.motssers, though.)
: There's a *bridge* competition? Maybe I should try to get a team
: together for Sydney in 2002!
Harrumph! I'm *sure* I mentioned this to you before (not Syndey per
se, but on fielding the team).
Now I need to find out the format: match pairs or duplicate?
Michael
Toft wrote in message ...
>
> They'd loved being free and happy in such a friendly city, where
> even the police were queer as fuck.
Indeed, the cooperation of the police was amazing, and probably
unique in the world. Vans and busses going from event to event
with police men & women handing out flyers about safety and
crime prevention, and all with big banners saying "proud to be
your friend" with the Amsterdam police logo. They even sold
T-shirt and caps with the police logo and the same slogan. I
remember my friend - who works for the police - handing out
the same flyers last year at Amsterdam Pride: dressed in a
police uniform he used his mouth to hand out the flyer in the
mouth of the recipient.
Mik, who shagged a cop today
Charlie Fulton
: Nelson Minar <nel...@media.mit.edu> had written:
: | There's also Rex Wockner (ok, so his posts are obnoxious, but you
: | have to admit he's a good newshound)
: No, one does not have to admit that.
I'd call myself an avid reader of "QUOTE/UNQUOTE". Sure it's got
this irritating transparent editorial slant, but I've found when
thumbing back through the archives that said slant is actually useful
in a zeitgeisty, "oh yeah, *that's* what fags were arguing about in '92"
way.
--
Charlie Fulton---foultone@mtcc.com---http://www.mtcc.com/~foultone/
"Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun."
Montgomery Burns
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
wrote:
> Ken Rudolph (ke...@thegrid.net) wrote:
> : Clayton Colwell wrote:
>
> : > From what little I've found, Team Austin did pretty good in Rowing
> : > (4 golds and 2 silvers, I believe), and a person from Houston got
> : > bronze in Bridge. (None were soc.motssers, though.)
>
> : There's a *bridge* competition? Maybe I should try to get a team
> : together for Sydney in 2002!
>
> Harrumph! I'm *sure* I mentioned this to you before (not Syndey per
> se, but on fielding the team).
>
> Now I need to find out the format: match pairs or duplicate?
Uhm, are games (such as bridge or chess) really in the spirit of athletic
games? Remember, the Gay Games are called that because they're not allowed
to be called the Gay Olympics. It's my belief that the Gay Games are first
and foremost an athletic event. Gay culture and parlor games can really
take care of themselves.
--
Michael Roeder; mroeder at best dot com; http://www.best.com/~mroeder
Ice Hockey QA Engineer (Goalie), 1998 BMW R1100GS rider,
and not your ordinary noncomformist.
Spam Reading Offer: http://www.best.com/~mroeder/spamoff.html
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
On the other hand, Germany, with its population of eighty million or so,
and England with its population of eighty million or so, are both fairly
densely populated countries, and could be expected to put together some
gay ice hockey teams. I hope that the Gay Games give the European gay
communities the impetus to get organized and form some teams. After all,
the Gay Games are not the only international gay tournaments.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
> In article <903614219.14514....@news.demon.nl>,
>
> And you have to realise what an appallingly straight-male game ice
> hockey is in Sweden. There are no out gay ice hockey players. I seem
> to remember one former one, but that's about it.
Hockey is a very straight game in North America, too, though there are
some exceptions.
I'm lucky in that I live in San Francisco, and play in San Jose. That's
"Silicon Valley," where many high-tech firms have their headquarters, and
those folks have long since given up their hangups about gay people. My
hockey team wished me well before I left for the games, and wanted to know
how I did when I came back. ("Did you get laid?" one of them asked. : )
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
Oh, damn! I wish I had seen those for sale. The hat could have been cool!
Leith Chu
> Uhm, are games (such as bridge or chess) really in the spirit of athletic
> games? Remember, the Gay Games are called that because they're not allowed
> to be called the Gay Olympics. It's my belief that the Gay Games are first
> and foremost an athletic event. Gay culture and parlor games can really
> take care of themselves.
AFAIK, the IOC recognizes duplicate bridge as a sport (otherwise, they'd
be hollering and screaming at the quadrennial Bridge Olympiad), as does
the Guinness Book of World Records.
If the Olympics were purely about athletics, why does the coxswain in
rowing get a medal?
Leith
Tim Fogarty
> Mik, who shagged a cop today
Oh, so you're not limiting yourself to military uniforms any more. Whats
next ? UPS delivery guys ?
:^)
--
Tim Fogarty (fog...@netcom.com)
http://musclememory.com/fogarty
Scott Safier
>
> Michael Timberwoof Roeder wrote:
>> It's my belief that the Gay Games are first
> > and foremost an athletic event. Gay culture and parlor games can really
> > take care of themselves.
>
> AFAIK, the IOC recognizes duplicate bridge as a sport (otherwise, they'd
> be hollering and screaming at the quadrennial Bridge Olympiad), as does
> the Guinness Book of World Records.
>
> If the Olympics were purely about athletics, why does the coxswain in
> rowing get a medal?
Bodybuilding is not an Olympic event, but it is a Gay Games event. Wouldn't
the inclusion of this event have something to do with gay culture? I
certainly think so.
As for parlor games, I don't think that athletics involves only the body and
muscle -- I think the mind comes into play too. Sports like football and
hockey involve chess-like strategy. If we expand the notion of athletic
competitions into the nearly-purely physical, why not extend that same notion
into the not-so-physical?
Scott
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<Isla...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Michael Timberwoof Roeder wrote:
> > Uhm, are games (such as bridge or chess) really in the spirit of athletic
> > games? Remember, the Gay Games are called that because they're not allowed
> > to be called the Gay Olympics. It's my belief that the Gay Games are first
> > and foremost an athletic event. Gay culture and parlor games can really
> > take care of themselves.
>
> AFAIK, the IOC recognizes duplicate bridge as a sport (otherwise, they'd
> be hollering and screaming at the quadrennial Bridge Olympiad), as does
> the Guinness Book of World Records.
>
> If the Olympics were purely about athletics, why does the coxswain in
> rowing get a medal?
Your arguments for why bridge is a sport are appeals to authority. I could
likewise appeal to authority and say that the coxswain gets a medal
because that's the rules of the sport. But I have a better answer ...
In team sports, working as part of a team is what makes winning possible.
The coxswain is a crucial member of the team: he coordinates everybody's
activities. Without him the team could not hope to row as efficiently. He
trains with the team, learns the best way to lead them. I could not
imagine a winning rowing team trying to deny their coxswain his medal
because he "didn't work for it."
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
> In article <mroederNoSpam-2...@dynamic24.pm08.sf3d.best.com>,
> mroede...@bestNoSpam.com (Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder) wrote:
> > Uhm, are games (such as bridge or chess) really in the spirit of athletic
> > games? Remember, the Gay Games are called that because they're not allowed
> > to be called the Gay Olympics. It's my belief that the Gay Games are first
> > and foremost an athletic event. Gay culture and parlor games can really
> > take care of themselves.
>
> I agree. We should make sure the sports included in the Gay Games are
> exactly the same as in the Straig^H^H^H^H^H^HOlympic Games. Otherwise
> it'll just increase homophobia. And we wouldn't want that, would we?
>
> Toft, clean out of <sarcasm> tags
Uhhh.... instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not say what you actually
think the Gay Games should be about? By the way, what was your sport in
Amsterdam?
Michael
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
>
> On the other hand, Germany, with its population of eighty million or so,
> and England with its population of eighty million or so, are both fairly
> densely populated countries, and could be expected to put together some
> gay ice hockey teams.
American and Canadian gay sports are simply far more organised
than the European couterparts. Just look at all the outfits: Team
Vancouver, Team New York, Team San Diego. In Europe only the
*whole* Berlin delegation was wearing the same outfit, as I remember.
So the Germans might be able to form an Ice Hockey team, but
who would they play in Europe?
And looking at other sports: Holland, one of the best football
countries in the world, could only form one competitive team,
France, the world champion, didn't have a competitive football
team at all, and neither had Brazil. And volleyball: the world's
best countries, Brazil, Italy, Holland and Cuba had together
much less teams than the US. Simply because gay sports in
Europe aren't as organised as they are in North America.
But it's getting better. With the help of the Eurogames. Which
were in Paris, and Berlin (that might be the reason for the huge
Berlin team), and would have been in Manchester next year,
but that event's been cancelled. We'll have to wait til Zurich
2000.
Mik
Michael
Tim Fogarty wrote in message ...
>Michael (michaelatmichaelndotdemondotnl) wrote:
>
>> Mik, who shagged a cop today
> Oh, so you're not limiting yourself to military uniforms any more.
Actually the cop was an ex-UK soldier. With an US Air Force
boyfriend, who will hopefully be next.
> Whats next ? UPS delivery guys ?
Actuall I almost shagged a UPS guy at the Games. But he got
scared when I told him I am hiv+, a first time for me that someone
didn't want sex with me because of that. I wasn't upset really,
it was all a bit new to the guy...
Mik
Michael
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
><michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
>>
>> crime prevention, and all with big banners saying "proud to be
>> your friend" with the Amsterdam police logo. They even sold
>> T-shirt and caps with the police logo and the same slogan.
I'll ask around to see if there's still some left. I want one too ;-)
Mik
Leith Chu
> <Isla...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > If the Olympics were purely about athletics, why does the coxswain in
> > rowing get a medal?
> Your arguments for why bridge is a sport are appeals to authority. I could
> likewise appeal to authority and say that the coxswain gets a medal
> because that's the rules of the sport. But I have a better answer ...
> In team sports, working as part of a team is what makes winning possible.
> The coxswain is a crucial member of the team: he coordinates everybody's
> activities. Without him the team could not hope to row as efficiently. He
> trains with the team, learns the best way to lead them. I could not
> imagine a winning rowing team trying to deny their coxswain his medal
> because he "didn't work for it."
Teamwork is crucial to success at duplicate bridge. Planning and
coordination are essential in the bidding, the play, and the general
strategy in pairs and team events; in individual events coordination and
flexibility is still essential.
Leith
Scott A. Safier
> Uhhh.... instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not say what you actually
> think the Gay Games should be about? By the way, what was your sport in
> Amsterdam?
I don't think that attending one occurrence of a quadrennial event is
necessary before expressing an opinion, even a sarcastic one.
As for what the Gay Games should be, they certainly should not be about
separatism and exclusion. Gay atheletes compete and win medals against
straight athletes in "officially sanctioned" athletic competitions--
sexual orientation is not a quantifiable factor in athletic
performance. I don't think the gay games should be a "separate but
equal" version of the Olympics.
In another post you write:
> My
> hockey team wished me well before I left for the games, and wanted to know
> how I did when I came back. ("Did you get laid?" one of them asked. :)
I think you have answered your own question. Regardless of any athletic
competition, the Gay Games are a big party we hold every 4 years. Mik
and Marina both talked about the parties and the reaction to the
non-athletic scene. Your friend asked about your outside-of-athletic
experiences. The Gay Games are a time and place to enjoy yourself. If
somehow the presence of bridge and other "parlor games" or "gay culture"
take away from your party experience, I feel sorry for you.
Scott
Michael
>
> Bodybuilding is not an Olympic event, but it is a Gay Games event. Wouldn't
> the inclusion of this event have something to do with gay culture? I
> certainly think so.
So bowling is a gay sport too? And bridge? And softbal? I think that
many of the sports that *are* part of the Gay Games and are not
included in the Olympics are simply very American sports, and that's
where the Gay Games have started.
Mik
Michael
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote:
>>
>> If the Olympics were purely about athletics, why does the coxswain in
>> rowing get a medal?
> The coxswain is a crucial member of the team: he coordinates everybody's
> activities. Without him the team could not hope to row as efficiently. He
> trains with the team, learns the best way to lead them. I could not
> imagine a winning rowing team trying to deny their coxswain his medal
> because he "didn't work for it."
This reminds me of a story of one of the early Olympics, if I'm right
it was in Paris. The Dutch rowing team didn't have a coxswain, so
they simply asked a (French) boy to sit in the boat. And they won
a (gold?) medal.
Mik
Michael
Toft wrote in message ...
>
> exactly the same as in the Straig^H^H^H^H^H^HOlympic Games. Otherwise
> it'll just increase homophobia. And we wouldn't want that, would we?
Why? The Gay Games are not trying to be a reflection of the
Olympics.
Tom Waddell, the initiator of the Gay Games participated in the
decathlon in the Olympics in Mexico. He was so disappointed
about the nationalism and rivalry, that he wanted to set up a sports
event in the true Olympic spirit: "to achieve one's personal best" (and
not "to be the best"). That's why *everybody* can participate, and
not just the best athletes in the world. That's why people form
teams with whomever they want, and there's no "one country =
one team" rule. It's all about participating and having fun.
Mik
Michael
Scott A. Safier wrote in message <35DD76E1...@telerama.lm.com>...
>
> I don't think that attending one occurrence of a quadrennial event is
> necessary before expressing an opinion, even a sarcastic one.
Indeed.
> As for what the Gay Games should be, they certainly should not be about
> separatism and exclusion.
But they aren't. At least they weren't in Amsterdam. The integration
of the Games and the city was complete. There's probably a lot of
people who've been to some of the cultural open-air events of the
Games, without realising that they were part of the Games.
> I don't think the gay games should be a "separate but equal" version of
> the Olympics.
Indeed. The Gay Games are not a copy of the Olympics. They are
an event by itself. Unlike the Olympics they also include cultural events,
workshops, etc. And that's why I don't see why the Gay Games
should include exactly the same sports as the Olympics. If the Gay
Games would be the gay mirror image of the Olympics, there'd
be more chance of increased homophobia than when the Gay Games
are an event all by themselves. In that sense I'm happy that they
had to take the Olympic out of the original name: "Gay Olympic Games".
> I think you have answered your own question. Regardless of any athletic
> competition, the Gay Games are a big party we hold every 4 years.
Indeed. Some people forget, but about 2500 participants of the Games
were part of the cultural program.
> Mik and Marina both talked about the parties and the reaction to the
> non-athletic scene. Your friend asked about your outside-of-athletic
> experiences. The Gay Games are a time and place to enjoy yourself.
True. And I hope they stay that way. It's OK if there's competitiveness,
but I'd be disappointed if in the future winning would become more
important than participating, and one would have to qualify for the
Games like people have to qualify for the Olympics. (*)
> If somehow the presence of bridge and other "parlor games" or "gay
> culture" take away from your party experience, I feel sorry for you.
If people wanna play Monopoly at the Games, let them! (*) It's all
about having fun, not about trying to be the best and trying to prove
that gay men and lesbian women are good at sports too.
Mik
(*) At the rate at which the Games are growing one will of course
reach the limit of the number of people that can participate at the
Games, but for now I'd stick to the Dutch saying "hoe meer zielen,
hoe meer vreugde" ('more people = more fun)
Scott A. Safier
You and I seem to be in general agreement about the purpose of the Gay
Games. I was reacting to Michael Roeder's statement "Gay culture and
parlor games can really take care of themselves." I certainly believe
that there are competitive events at the games that reflect the "gay
culture" -- bodybuilding, ballroom dancing, etc. This does not imply
that all non-Olympic additions fall into that category. As for bowling,
Pittsburgh's Gay Bowling League is one of the largest social groups, as
is the softball league. Sure, they may also be part of USAmerican
culture, but isn't that the ultimate point -- that the GLBT community
isn't that different from society as a whole.
Scott
Michael
Scott A. Safier wrote in message <35DDAEF7...@telerama.lm.com>...
>
> You and I seem to be in general agreement about the purpose of the Gay
> Games
Okidoki.
Mik
Derik K Cowan
: What a strange thread! Anyway, as for "celebs" who've posted to motss,
: there's also people who have had real impact on GLOB's lives. Louie
: Crew is the main one to come to mind, just because he's such a nice
: guy. There's also Rex Wockner (ok, so his posts are obnoxious, but you
: have to admit he's a good newshound) and Jeff Epperly.
Well, we sell dozens of little Lobelt's Lures books in our store, so I
guess by this criteria we'd have to give Sherry a note as well.
Derik
--
Derik K Cowan Jesus was way cool.
de...@mtcc.com No wonder there are so many Christians
www.amherst.edu/~dkcowan -Kingmissile
Cornelia Wyngaarden
: If people wanna play Monopoly at the Games, let them! (*) It's all
: about having fun, not about trying to be the best and trying to prove
: that gay men and lesbian women are good at sports too.
: Mik
: (*) At the rate at which the Games are growing one will of course
: reach the limit of the number of people that can participate at the
: Games, but for now I'd stick to the Dutch saying "hoe meer zielen,
: hoe meer vreugde" ('more people = more fun)
how very dutch (just kiddin)
my personal recollection of the Vancouver games that it concerned itself
lot more with style over substance
this made it way more interesting for the audience than the actual
competitors
the swimming costumes were exceptionally entertaining let alone the
overall hijinx of some very talented swimmers
the croquet competition also stands out in my mind in terms of costumes
and refreshments served
and of course it is great to win and be entertaining
the olympics prevented us from using "their" word why on earth would we
want to be anything like them?
corry
Scott A. Safier
So THAT is how to spell that :-)
Keith Sklower
}> Uhhh.... instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not say what you actually
}> think the Gay Games should be about? By the way, what was your sport in
}> Amsterdam?
}As for what the Gay Games should be, they certainly should not be about
}separatism and exclusion.
Das stimmt.
}I think you have answered your own question. Regardless of any athletic
}competition, the Gay Games are a big party we hold every 4 years....
}... The Gay Games are a time and place to enjoy yourself.
I'm not so sure about this one. My impression was there was a vision
that Wadell had for the early gay games, and it may have been altered
over the years.
Part of the vision had to with encouraging gay people to take part
in physical sports and celebrating that participation. Certainly
many gay people were "the last ones chosen for a team" (like me),
or teased unmercifully in phys-ed classes, and grew up with a dislike
and distrust of athletics that Waddell hoped to overcome in part.
I got egged on into taking part in GayGames II and III by a french-horn
player (Doug Kimball) in the SF Band who knew I swam regularly as aerobic
conditioning, and the dialog was something like
DK: So, Keith, are you going to swim in the games?
KS: No, there are people who swim literally twice as fast as I do
DK: It's not about winning, It's about participation - everybody
who participates wins.
(Kimball had been a double major in athletics and Music in college and
had won the gold in the decathalon in the first games).
And indeed everybody who participates gets a medal even today,
even the folks who take parts in the "Arts" side of it.
But we should recall that the original sponsoring group was
"San Francisco Arts and Athletics", and that the first gay games
included pool, which doesn't require great strength or endurance,
and that there were cultural & musical happenings associated
with them even from the beginning.
By the end of the Vancouver games, it became clear that mere participation
wasn't really being celebrated as much as excellence was and my own
are of excellence was more music than swimming, so when I went to
the New York games, I only played in the combined Lesbian & Gay Bands
of america concert.
I think some of the vision remains, transmuted, and I hope it hasn't
merely turned into a huge party with no other meaning than to have
a good time.
Michael
>
> my personal recollection of the Vancouver games that it concerned itself
> lot more with style over substance
I think the problems in Amsterdam were different: complaints about
the organisation, not enough money, but at least everybody had a
GREAT time. And substance? Well, the cultural part of the Gay
Games were bigger than ever: from the "Homosexuals & Trade
Unions" convention to the "Olympic Gods" exhibition in the
National Museum.
> this made it way more interesting for the audience than the actual
> competitors
I'm sure the competitors in Amsterdam had the most fun. Except
for the figure skaters (who saw their event being cancelled) and
the Milano football team, that was disqualified because of
aggressive behavior.
Mik
P.S: last news flash: the European Athletics Championship
(or would you call it Track & Field?) are being held right now
in Budapest. The best Dutch perfomance so far has been
the fourth place in the women's pole vault (sp?) competition.
Monique de Wilt of Holland managed to jump over 4.15m,
just under her national record of 4.16, which she realised
2 weeks ago at the Gay Games....
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
> American and Canadian gay sports are simply far more organised
> than the European couterparts. Just look at all the outfits: Team
> Vancouver, Team New York, Team San Diego. In Europe only the
> *whole* Berlin delegation was wearing the same outfit, as I remember.
>
> So the Germans might be able to form an Ice Hockey team, but
> who would they play in Europe?
Uh, other hockey teams in their cities?
Toronto has a gay hockey league consisting of six teams, but most other
cities where there are gay hockey teams have only one or two gay teams --
and those are in different divisions.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<Isla...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Michael Timberwoof Roeder wrote:
> > <Isla...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > If the Olympics were purely about athletics, why does the coxswain in
> > > rowing get a medal?
> > Your arguments for why bridge is a sport are appeals to authority. I could
> > likewise appeal to authority and say that the coxswain gets a medal
> > because that's the rules of the sport. But I have a better answer ...
> > In team sports, working as part of a team is what makes winning possible.
> > The coxswain is a crucial member of the team: he coordinates everybody's
> > activities. Without him the team could not hope to row as efficiently. He
> > trains with the team, learns the best way to lead them. I could not
> > imagine a winning rowing team trying to deny their coxswain his medal
> > because he "didn't work for it."
>
> Teamwork is crucial to success at duplicate bridge. Planning and
> coordination are essential in the bidding, the play, and the general
> strategy in pairs and team events; in individual events coordination and
> flexibility is still essential.
But unless your partner trumps your ace, you're hardly going to break into
a sweat or raise your heart and respiration rate.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
Wyngaarden) wrote:
> the olympics prevented us from using "their" word why on earth would we
> want to be anything like them?
Guilt by association and mistaking a part for the whole: Since there were
a few assholes at the top of the USOC who took the Gay Olympics to court,
everything in the olympics is stained, and nothing gay people do should be
anything like that.
I'll tell you what ... since you don't seem to approve of gay people
getting together, having an athletic competition, and handing out medals
to the winners, you are hereby excused from any further association with
the movement.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
> Michael Timberwoof Roeder wrote:
>
> > Uhhh.... instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not say what you actually
> > think the Gay Games should be about? By the way, what was your sport in
> > Amsterdam?
>
> I don't think that attending one occurrence of a quadrennial event is
> necessary before expressing an opinion, even a sarcastic one.
>
> As for what the Gay Games should be, they certainly should not be about
> separatism and exclusion. Gay atheletes compete and win medals against
> straight athletes in "officially sanctioned" athletic competitions--
> sexual orientation is not a quantifiable factor in athletic
> performance. I don't think the gay games should be a "separate but
> equal" version of the Olympics.
Ah, so you didn't attend, or register, or really find out very much about
who can and can't play in the Games. And so far you've told me a lot of
things you think the Gay Games -- which you haven't attended -- should not
be, but you haven't said much about what they should be.
> In another post you write:
> > My
> > hockey team wished me well before I left for the games, and wanted to know
> > how I did when I came back. ("Did you get laid?" one of them asked. :)
>
> I think you have answered your own question. Regardless of any athletic
> competition, the Gay Games are a big party we hold every 4 years.
And if a few athletes show up and have some competitions, that's pretty
cool, too.
>Mik
> and Marina both talked about the parties and the reaction to the
> non-athletic scene. Your friend asked about your outside-of-athletic
> experiences. The Gay Games are a time and place to enjoy yourself. If
> somehow the presence of bridge and other "parlor games" or "gay culture"
> take away from your party experience, I feel sorry for you.
I don't dare to even think about your reaction when I tell you that I was
a good boy: I went to bed mostly on time and got up in plenty of time to
have a big breakfast, take the tram to the ice arena, and be ready for my
games. I don't think I lost out, either. I don't like loud smoky parties
where the only way to connect with someone is to shout at the top of my
lungs.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
skl...@triplerock.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Keith Sklower) wrote:
> In article <35DD76E1...@telerama.lm.com>,
> Scott A. Safier <cor...@telerama.lm.com> wrote:
> }Michael Timberwoof Roeder wrote:
>
> }> Uhhh.... instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not say what you actually
> }> think the Gay Games should be about? By the way, what was your sport in
> }> Amsterdam?
>
> }As for what the Gay Games should be, they certainly should not be about
> }separatism and exclusion.
>
> Das stimmt.
>
> }I think you have answered your own question. Regardless of any athletic
> }competition, the Gay Games are a big party we hold every 4 years....
> }... The Gay Games are a time and place to enjoy yourself.
>
> I'm not so sure about this one. My impression was there was a vision
> that Wadell had for the early gay games, and it may have been altered
> over the years.
>
<snip>
>
> I think some of the vision remains, transmuted, and I hope it hasn't
> merely turned into a huge party with no other meaning than to have
> a good time.
It appears to me that most of "gay culture" is about throwing huge parties
with no other meanings than to have a good time ... in the syle and manner
prescribed by those who are throwing the parties. I'm not one of those
people, so I can only relate what I htink those rules are based opn what
I've observed:
turn the sound system all the way up to 11 so that nobody can have a good
conversation
Get shit-faced drunk or completely stoned out of your mind on the latest
fashionable drugs
fuck all the boys you can find -- or get them to fuck you
eschew anyone who doesn't want to have fun in that manner
stay up until dawn and make sure that everyone in your apartment building
does, too
That's not my idea of a good time.
pie...@my-dejanews.com
> [famous posters]
> And Jeeves, one of the select few who can push movies stars around.
And David Kaye, who tries to push everyone else around, is world
famous in San Francisco! This week he even made it to the
world-famous Bay Area Reporter, the magazine for Those That Matter,
picture and all. Something about gay rape or something.
Pieter Hazewindus
pie...@alumni.caltech.edu
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Cornelia Wyngaarden
: I'll tell you what ... since you don't seem to approve of gay people
: getting together, having an athletic competition, and handing out medals
: to the winners, you are hereby excused from any further association with
: the movement.
yes your majesty kween karlotta, do i have to wear my clothes backwards
for the rest of the day as well?
too bad i never said anything like that, i am all for healthy competition.
i am also for the total silliness that goes along with any celebration of
pride in *all* that we (fsvo) do.
am i now excused from being excused?
corry truly humbled by your response
Ellen Evans
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
[]
>It appears to me that most of "gay culture" is about throwing huge parties
>with no other meanings than to have a good time
Yeah, who wants to have a good time?
--
Ellen Evans 17 Across: The "her" of "Leave Her to Heaven"
je...@netcom.com New York Times, 7/14/96
Ellen Evans
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
[]
>getting together, having an athletic competition, and handing out medals
>to the winners, you are hereby excused from any further association with
>the movement.
Gee, I didn't read *any* one saying that.
Citations, please.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
> In article <mroederNoSpam-2...@dynamic29.pm12.sf3d.best.com>,
> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
> []
> >I'll tell you what ... since you don't seem to approve of gay people
> >getting together, having an athletic competition, and handing out medals
> >to the winners, you are hereby excused from any further association with
> >the movement.
>
> Gee, I didn't read *any* one saying that.
>
> Citations, please.
In article <35ddc...@199.60.227.1>, cwyn...@eciad.bc.ca (Cornelia
Wyngaarden) wrote:
> the olympics prevented us from using "their" word why on earth would we
> want to be anything like them?
And I also replied
> Guilt by association and mistaking a part for the whole: Since there were
> a few assholes at the top of the USOC who took the Gay Olympics to court,
> everything in the olympics is stained, and nothing gay people do should be
> anything like that.
My point stands ... if Cornelia doesn't want to do things Olympish, then
she doesn't have to. On the other hand, in a later post, she said,
> too bad i never said anything like that, i am all for healthy competition.
>
> i am also for the total silliness that goes along with any celebration of
> pride in *all* that we (fsvo) do.
>
> am i now excused from being excused?
So if Cornelia does want to do things Olympish, then she can. Forgive me
for expecting consistency.
But don't even make the mistake of thinking that it's me giving or
withholding permission. That's just the way things are: If you don't want
to do something, then for heaven's sake, don't do it. And if you want to
do something, then do it. Just don't get upset when other people want to
or don't want to do things the same way that you do.
Oh, hell, I can see it coming. You're going to post this along with my
tirade about gay party rules. Don't even. I just said that *I* don't like
such parties. I don't care if other people go to such parties (unless they
keep me awake all night).
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
skl...@triplerock.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Keith Sklower) wrote:
<snip>
> Part of the vision had to with encouraging gay people to take part
> in physical sports and celebrating that participation. Certainly
> many gay people were "the last ones chosen for a team" (like me),
> or teased unmercifully in phys-ed classes, and grew up with a dislike
> and distrust of athletics that Waddell hoped to overcome in part.
A few years ago I came out of the locker room. I grew up thinking I was an
ordinary decent respectable academic kid who didn't put too much emphasis
on sports. Hell, I was always the lightest kid in class and I absolutely
sucked at all the standard sports. I hated gym class. You could say I had
a strong dislike and distrust of athletics. But a few years ago I
discovered ice hockey and realized that I am a jock. Things have changed:
I *like* being athletic.
Other things have not changed. Lots of gay people still dislike and
distrust athletics, and few are enthusiastic about me being an ice hockey
goalie. But there are those in the gay community who enjoy sports ...
Cheer San Francisco (who were also known in years past as the Raw Rah
Boys) attended one of our games in Amsterdam. It was wonderful playing
with enthusiastic cheerleaders in the stands!
> But we should recall that the original sponsoring group was
> "San Francisco Arts and Athletics", and that the first gay games
> included pool, which doesn't require great strength or endurance,
> and that there were cultural & musical happenings associated
> with them even from the beginning.
>
> By the end of the Vancouver games, it became clear that mere participation
> wasn't really being celebrated as much as excellence was and my own
> are of excellence was more music than swimming, so when I went to
> the New York games, I only played in the combined Lesbian & Gay Bands
> of america concert.
While participation should be encouraged, and I do like having my
participation medal, I completely disagree with those who would do
entirely away with rewards for excellence. I measure my abilities as
goalie by my save average and by how well I contribute to my team's
success. Why encourage mediocrity?
> I think some of the vision remains, transmuted, and I hope it hasn't
> merely turned into a huge party with no other meaning than to have
> a good time.
If the Gay Games do become a completely open and accessible venue for
whatever, then they will become the Anybody Anything ... what's the point
of that? So my position is this: Keep the participation medals for
everybody, keep the precious-metal medals for winners. Keep the
established logical divisions according to age or abiliity, and award
medals within them.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
> In article <mroederNoSpam-2...@dynamic23.pm12.sf3d.best.com>,
> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
> []
> >It appears to me that most of "gay culture" is about throwing huge parties
> >with no other meanings than to have a good time
>
> Yeah, who wants to have a good time?
Nobody. I think that good times should be strictly abolished, and anyone
who has one should be made to wear featureless grey sweats.
Excuse me, but get the fuck out of here and quote me in context, will you?
How convenient for you to cut me off in the middle of a sentence! What I
said was...
> It appears to me that most of "gay culture" is about throwing huge parties
> with no other meanings than to have a good time ... in the syle and manner
> prescribed by those who are throwing the parties. I'm not one of those
> people, so I can only relate what I htink those rules are based opn what
> I've observed:
>
> turn the sound system all the way up to 11 so that nobody can have a good
> conversation
> Get shit-faced drunk or completely stoned out of your mind on the latest
> fashionable drugs
> fuck all the boys you can find -- or get them to fuck you
> eschew anyone who doesn't want to have fun in that manner
> stay up until dawn and make sure that everyone in your apartment building
> does, too
>
> That's not my idea of a good time.
I want to have a good time, too. (Duuh!) But it appears that since my idea
is not the same as yours, I get to wear the grey sweats.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
wrote:
> Michael Roeder:
>
> >A few years ago I came out of the locker room.
>
> >I grew up thinking I was an ordinary decent respectable academic
> >kid who didn't put too much emphasis on sports. Hell, I was always
> >the lightest kid in class and I absolutely sucked at all the
> >standard sports. I hated gym class.
>
> So far, pretty much parallel for me.
>
> >You could say I had a strong dislike and distrust of athletics.
>
> For me it was team sports especially.
>
> But I think I discovered the sportsman in myself somewhat earlier
> than you did, because I had learned to swim well at an early age
> and at 14 took up tennis in a big way.
>
> I never competed in swimming, and didn't even realize it meant I
> had athletic ability until much later. But in tennis I did compete
> until I was 18 and realized I had actual talent for some athletic
> things.
>
> Still, I would never have called myself a jock, and enthusiasm for
> team sports had to wait many more years. My athleticism was
> limited pretty much to solo (as in personal best) or
> (companionship or competition) one-on-one things.
>
> Later I took up running and bicycling in summer, downhill skiing
> and cross-country skiing in winter.
>
> In there somewhere I started to hang out with gymnasts and oarsmen
> and to develop a sense of and appreciation for the idea of team
> sports, though (unlike you) I've never played team sports.
>
> Then came the shank part of my professional career, which
> encompassed many years in which what little I did that was real
> exercise was sporadic and unsystematic at best.
>
> Not only, that resulted in a gradual loss of strength as I passed
> from 40-something to 59. The advent of several potentially
> life-threatening health scares in my late 50s coupled with a
> dawning awareness that encroaching physical weakness could greatly
> compromise my highly prized independence.
>
> A series of circumstances not directly relevant here resulted 3.5
> years ago in my joining a gym and getting serious about weight
> training. Well lordie, there have been all sorts of results, one
> of them being ...
>
> >But a few years ago I discovered ice hockey and realized that I am
> >a jock. Things have changed: I *like* being athletic.
>
> ... what I can only call jock-dom in the culture of the weight
> room. Funny how it works out, as I suspect you'll agree, in ways
> one would not have expected.
>
> >Other things have not changed. Lots of gay people still dislike
> >and distrust athletics, and few are enthusiastic about me being an
> >ice hockey goalie.
>
> Well, I would be. If we ever meet, I'll tell you my hockey-player
> story; as a result, for better or worse I see hockey as butchness
> incarnate.
>
> Weight-lifting comes in for a share of guff in gay circles too,
> not entirely without reason in certain ways, I suppose.
>
> It's probably vastly oversimplified, but I suspect much of the
> dislike and distrust stems from the negative reinforcements boys
> get in school if they fail to meet conformist expectations in any
> of a great many ways.
>
> >But there are those in the gay community who enjoy sports ...
>
> Oh yes, and thank goodness.
Anderson, thank you for a wonderful post. I know it's not within the
boundaries of Netiquette to say "Yeah, me, too!" after quoting a long
post, but I couldn't just let yours go without positive comment. After
reading some things that some others had to say -- and deciding not to
answer them -- I could not leave you in the same group.
Butchness incarnate, eh? :-) To a guy who's 5'10" tall and weighs 130# on
a good day, that speaks volumes. (Not as though I needed much help in
increasing my perceived butchness, but still... Thanks.)
Leith Chu
> > > activities. Without him the team could not hope to row as efficiently. He
> > > trains with the team, learns the best way to lead them. I could not
> > > imagine a winning rowing team trying to deny their coxswain his medal
> > > because he "didn't work for it."
> > Teamwork is crucial to success at duplicate bridge. Planning and
> > coordination are essential in the bidding, the play, and the general
> > strategy in pairs and team events; in individual events coordination and
> > flexibility is still essential.
> But unless your partner trumps your ace, you're hardly going to break into
> a sweat or raise your heart and respiration rate.
Doesn't this apply to the coxswain, too?
Oh, and how do you feel about equestrian sports?
Leith
Josh Simon
> Oh, and how do you feel about equestrian sports?
The horses must be gay or lesbian of course. Or bisexual, I guess.
-j, noting that he's too lazy to edit his .sig or .trnrc or whatever
to include the (chopped) fifth line, attributing it to Orson Welles
(fictional) on "The Critic"
--
= Josh Simon =
= jss at clock.org Home page: http://www.clock.org/~jss/ =
"Rosebud Frozen Peas: Full of country goodness and green pea-ness."
Ken Rudolph
>
> In article <35DD4CEC...@pei.sympatico.ca>, Leith Chu
> <Isla...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Teamwork is crucial to success at duplicate bridge. Planning and
> > coordination are essential in the bidding, the play, and the general
> > strategy in pairs and team events; in individual events coordination and
> > flexibility is still essential.
>
> But unless your partner trumps your ace, you're hardly going to break into
> a sweat or raise your heart and respiration rate.
OK, it's clear that you think that only sweaty jocks qualify for Gay
Games. How about fucking as a spectator sport? That usually works
up a sweat and makes the heart beat faster for the participants. It
would be a very popular spectator event, too, I think. Something
like wrestling with hardons. It can even be choreographed or made
synchronized. Judging would be based on difficulty of positions,
flexibility, and athleticism.
--Ken Rudolph
Cornelia Wyngaarden
: So if Cornelia does want to do things Olympish, then she can. Forgive me
: for expecting consistency.
: But don't even make the mistake of thinking that it's me giving or
: withholding permission. That's just the way things are: If you don't want
: to do something, then for heaven's sake, don't do it. And if you want to
: do something, then do it. Just don't get upset when other people want to
: or don't want to do things the same way that you do.
gee thanks for the advice and no i don't want to do things olympish and
yes i would like to to be able to have the choice of enjoying the gay games
if that is inconsistent don't expect so little of me
corry
Robert S. Coren
>n...@visi.com (Ned Deily) wrote:
>> [famous posters]
>> And Jeeves, one of the select few who can push movies stars around.
>
>And David Kaye, who tries to push everyone else around, is world
>famous in San Francisco! This week he even made it to the
>world-famous Bay Area Reporter, the magazine for Those That Matter,
>picture and all. Something about gay rape or something.
For, against, or accused of?
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Don't take life so serious, son -- it ain't nohow permanent."
--Porkypine (Walt Kelly)
Robert S. Coren
Only in Dutch, and if you want it to look like a parody of Japanese.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Aric has a booming voice like yours -- and a lot less discretion."
--Mike Thomas to me, on the subject of disturbing the neighbors
Ellen Evans
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
>In article <jeevEy2...@netcom.com>, je...@netcom.com (Ellen Evans) wrote:
>Excuse me, but get the fuck out of here and quote me in context,
Why? What you're saying is completely boring.
Mr. Butch.
Ellen Evans
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
>In article <jeevEy2...@netcom.com>, je...@netcom.com (Ellen Evans) wrote:
>
>> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
>> >I'll tell you what ... since you don't seem to approve of gay people
>> >getting together, having an athletic competition, and handing out medals
>> >to the winners, you are hereby excused from any further association with
>> >the movement.
>>
>> Gee, I didn't read *any* one saying that.
>>
>> Citations, please.
>
>In article <35ddc...@199.60.227.1>, cwyn...@eciad.bc.ca (Cornelia
>Wyngaarden) wrote:
>
>> the olympics prevented us from using "their" word why on earth would we
>> want to be anything like them?
And from this you deduce that corry doesn't want "people getting together
ahving an athletic competittion and handing out medals"?
What are you, the Amazing Kreskin?
Nick
I run a free gay site called:
THE GAY PERSONALS
http://www.lightlink.com/nick27/gaypersonals.html
My picture is on the main page. I also spent the summer in Provincetown
last summer..I meet everyone.
Arne Adolfsen
>I am kind of a celeb I am the most OUT gay person on the net.
Give me a fuckin' break. I've been out to everyone in my life -- junior
high guidance counselors, my parents, neighbors, everyone -- since early
1968, and I've been on the net since the late '80s. So, doll, if you
were out to your schoolmates in, say, 1967, and to everyone around you --
parents, friends, coworkers, schoolmates -- in, say, 1970, then you do indeed
predate me. Otherwise, I think you're just a stupid poseur.
Arne
Michael
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote
>
> I don't like loud smoky parties where the only way to connect
> with someone is to shout at the top of my lungs.
Sounds like you've never been to a club, have you?
Mik, who never shouts but went to 9 clubs/parties in 8 days
during the Gay Games (also worth a medal?)
Michael
>
> If the Gay Games do become a completely open and accessible venue for
> whatever, then they will become the Anybody Anything ... what's the point
> of that?
They'll become a sports event based on Tom Wadell's vision: people
would participate "to achieve one's personal best".
So you do not want the Gay Games to be open and accesible for
everybody? How would you do that? Qualification rounds? Ban
all straight people?
And even if the Gay Games are accesible to everybody, they'll
still be the Gay Games. A Brazilian Carnival is still a Brazilian
Carniva, even if it's being held in, say Latvia.
Mik
Michael
>>
>> who would they play in Europe?
> Uh, other hockey teams in their cities?
No, that's what I tried to explain: gay sports in Europe is much less
organised than it is in the US and Canada, so it's hard enough to
form just one hockey team...
Mik
Michael
Leith Chu wrote in message <35DE1367...@pei.sympatico.ca>...
>
> Oh, and how do you feel about equestrian sports?
Well, the Gay Games are open to all sexual preferences, so... ;-)
Mik
Michael
Ellen Evans wrote in message ...
>Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll tell you what ... since you don't seem to approve of gay people
>> getting together, having an athletic competition, and handing out medals
>> to the winners, you are hereby excused from any further association with
>> the movement.
> Gee, I didn't read *any* one saying that.
No, I didn't read that either. Not on soc.motss, at least.
Mik
Michael
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
> Wyngaarden) wrote:
>
>> the olympics prevented us from using "their" word why on earth would we
>> want to be anything like them?>
> getting together, having an athletic competition, and handing out medals
> to the winners, you are hereby excused from any further association with
> the movement.
<G> Michael, I didn't know the Olympics were the only sports event...
Mik
Michael
>
>> I think you have answered your own question. Regardless of any athletic
>> competition, the Gay Games are a big party we hold every 4 years....
>> ... The Gay Games are a time and place to enjoy yourself.
> I'm not so sure about this one. My impression was there was a vision
> that Wadell had for the early gay games, and it may have been altered
> over the years.
Yes, the vision of Wadell was that everybody should have a good time,
"achieve their personal's best". Without all the rivalry and nationalism
of the Olympics.
> By the end of the Vancouver games, it became clear that mere participation
> wasn't really being celebrated as much as excellence was
Oh, that has changed in Amsterdam then.... The people involved in
the sports events were competitive, yes, but the will to win was
not more important than the joy to participate.
Mik
Michael
Robert S. Coren wrote in message <6rldr0$lvp$1...@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>...
>>>
>>> Okidoki.
>> So THAT is how to spell that :-)
> Only in Dutch, and if you want it to look like a parody of Japanese.
Bitch! ;-)
Mik
Michael
>
> with no other meanings than to have a good time ...
And why would *that* be a problem?
> in the syle and manner prescribed by those who are throwing the parties.
It seems to me that if someone organizes a party, he has some saying
in what goes on at that party, and how things are arranged, right?
> I'm not one of those people, so I can only relate what I think those rules
> are based opn what I've observed:
They just show that you never go to a party.
> turn the sound system all the way up to 11 so that nobody can have a good
> conversation
First of all 11 on my sound system would make it sounds like elevator
muzak. But I have no problem having conversations in clubs, especially
since most of them have chill-out rooms, or at least they're not JUST
a dance floor.
> Get shit-faced drunk or completely stoned out of your mind on the
> latest fashionable drugs
The only pills I was on during the Gay Games were my combination
therapy drugs. And alcohol and dancing usually don't go together.
> fuck all the boys you can find -- or get them to fuck you
Tell that the lesbians.
> eschew anyone who doesn't want to have fun in that manner
> stay up until dawn and make sure that everyone in your apartment
> building does, too
Bullshit. I managed to go to all the parties *and* be at the
football field at 11am to watch the finals. Eschewing people
sounds very negative. The only person here who talkes negatively
about people who choose to enjoy themselves in other ways than
he himself does, is you.
> That's not my idea of a good time.
That's not my problem. If you enjoy doing sports, fine, but if other
people enjoy partying, why can't you just let them? And please,
stop generalizing!
Mik
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
> >
> > If the Gay Games do become a completely open and accessible venue for
> > whatever, then they will become the Anybody Anything ... what's the point
> > of that?
>
> They'll become a sports event based on Tom Wadell's vision: people
> would participate "to achieve one's personal best".
>
> So you do not want the Gay Games to be open and accesible for
> everybody? How would you do that? Qualification rounds? Ban
> all straight people?
Hang on, that's not what I said.
In the ice hockey competition there were three divisions: Men's Open,
Women's Open, and Recreational. The idea was that better teams would join
the Open divisions and the beginner teams would join the Recreational
division. I think that that's perfectly appropriate. That's how amateur
hockey leagues are organized. I do not think it's appropriate to have just
one huge whatever-on-ice thing where anyone can show up and do whatever
and get a medal for it. If you're going to have a hockey competition, you
are naturally going to exclude people who aren't hockey players.
(You're also going to exclude people who can't skate for whatever reason,
including paraplegics. Is this unfair discrimination?)
The organizers of Gay Games V placed quotas on men's and women's hockey
teams. After preregistration was closed (during which qualification for
entry was the ability to raise money and send your registration
information by Federal Express on the day it opened) there were nine men's
or mixed teams and only four women's teams, so they banned any more men's
teams from registering. This is not my idea of equal access.
Ban straight people? Where did you get that idea? It certainly wasn't my
suggestion, and I already rebutted it. There was a straight ice hockey
team -- the Refs, as in Referees, represented Amsterdam in the Men's Open
division. Despite some questionable officiating* by friends of the team,
they came in last place. (* For instance, in the game against Toronto, a
Toronto player was carrying the puck towards the Refs' net. A Ref tripped
him from behind, but also fell down himself. The Toronto player got the
penalty.)
Qualification rounds might not be a bad idea for certain sports. Wrestlers
are classified by weight and swimmers are classified by age. Hockey teams
are classified by sex and which division they think they will be able to
win. That is fair and just: What's the point of a 130# guy wrestling
someone twice his weight? Qualification rounds for hockey would serve to
determine which division one plays in, not whether one gets to play. The
problem with qualification rounds for hockey is that they would take
forever if they were held at the Games.
Let me ask you a question. Is it fair for a team to only allow skilled
players to join? Isn't it by nature exclusionary for Toronto -- who won
the Gold medal in the Men's Open -- to not want an unskilled newbie to
join the tournament team? Is this a bad thing?
> And even if the Gay Games are accesible to everybody, they'll
> still be the Gay Games. A Brazilian Carnival is still a Brazilian
> Carniva, even if it's being held in, say Latvia.
My point is that inclusiveness is a worthwhile goal, but it should not be
carried to extremes.
Cornelia Wyngaarden
: Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
: >> So the Germans might be able to form an Ice Hockey team, but
: >> who would they play in Europe?
: > Uh, other hockey teams in their cities?
: No, that's what I tried to explain: gay sports in Europe is much less
: organised than it is in the US and Canada, so it's hard enough to
: form just one hockey team...
oh come on mik with all that skating going on how hard can it be?
corry
Tim Fogarty
> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote
> > I don't like loud smoky parties where the only way to connect
> > with someone is to shout at the top of my lungs.
> Sounds like you've never been to a club, have you?
Perhaps he's only been to clubs in California. (ie, no smoking allowed in
bars and dance clubs)
--
Tim Fogarty (fog...@netcom.com)
http://musclememory.com/fogarty
Michael
Cornelia Wyngaarden wrote in message <35def...@199.60.227.1>...
>
>> No, that's what I tried to explain: gay sports in Europe is much less
>> organised than it is in the US and Canada, so it's hard enough to
>> form just one hockey team...
> oh come on mik with all that skating going on how hard can it be?
The only European country that's got a lot of (speed-)skaters
is Holland, but even a city as Amsterdam has problems to
set up a slightly decent Ice Hockey team. Ice Hockey simply
isn't a very big sport here.
Another argument is that the US is a big country, whil Europe
is split up in many different countries. All with their own cultures,
all with their own gay cultures, all with their own gay organisations,
and all with their own gay sports organisations.
Mik
Michael
>> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
>>>
>>> If the Gay Games do become a completely open and accessible venue for
>> > whatever, then they will become the Anybody Anything ... what's the point
>>> of that?
>> everybody? How would you do that? Qualification rounds? Ban
>> all straight people?
> where anyone can show up and do whatever and get a medal for it. If
> you're going to have a hockey competition, you are naturally going to
> exclude people who aren't hockey players.
The Gay Games are about "achieving one's personal best", not about
getting together the best teams in the world. We agree on that. But
how can you exclude people from participating? There's no way to
stop anybody, is there? Most of the regulating will be through
self-regulation. Why would anybody who can't skate buy some skates
and pay the fee to participate?
> (You're also going to exclude people who can't skate for whatever reason,
> including paraplegics. Is this unfair discrimination?)
I think those people will be smart enough not to participate. Why would
they?
> The organizers of Gay Games V placed quotas on men's and women's
> hockey teams. After preregistration was closed (during which qualification
> for entry was the ability to raise money and send your registration
> information by Federal Express on the day it opened) there were nine men's
> or mixed teams and only four women's teams, so they banned any more men's
> teams from registering. This is not my idea of equal access.
So how would you organize things then? There's a limit on the number
of people who can participate, and the Gay Games organisation wants
to make sure that there's not a too big difference between the number
of men and the number of women participating. And with one skating
rink that has to be used for both the Ice Hockey and the Figure Skating,
there simply has to be a limit to the number of teams.
> Ban straight people? Where did you get that idea? It certainly wasn't my
> suggestion,
I didn't say it was your suggestion, did I? You said you didn't
like the idea of an event completely open and accesible to everybody,
so I wondered how you were going to limit the number of people
participating.
> Qualification rounds might not be a bad idea for certain sports.
If they're gonna start with qualification rounds, the Gay Games will
turn into a second rate Olympics in no time. And that's not what
we want, is it? The Gay Games are not only about the one who runs
the marathon fastest, but also about that person who's simply managed
to run the whole distance, despite all the set-backs in his/her life.
> Wrestlers are classified by weight and swimmers are classified by
> age. Hockey teams are classified by sex and which division they
> think they will be able to win. That is fair and just:
Indeed.
> What's the point of a 130# guy wrestling someone twice his weight?
> Qualification rounds for hockey would serve to determine which division
> one plays in, not whether one gets to play.
So the Games would still be accessible to everyone, right?
> The problem with qualification rounds for hockey is that they would take
> forever if they were held at the Games.
Indeed, so qualification rounds are NOT the answer.
> Let me ask you a question. Is it fair for a team to only allow skilled
> players to join? Isn't it by nature exclusionary for Toronto -- who won
> the Gold medal in the Men's Open -- to not want an unskilled newbie to
> join the tournament team? Is this a bad thing?
It is a bad thing in the sense that with that attitude the Gay Games will
soon turn into second-rate Olympic Games, where winning is the
ultimate and only goal. But if the Toronto team wants to do that,
fine. There's enough teams who are happy enough just to participate.
And since there's no qualification matches, those teams will always
be present.
Mik
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
Fogarty) wrote:
> Michael (michaelatmichaelndotdemondotnl) wrote:
>
> > Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote
> > > I don't like loud smoky parties where the only way to connect
> > > with someone is to shout at the top of my lungs.
>
> > Sounds like you've never been to a club, have you?
>
> Perhaps he's only been to clubs in California. (ie, no smoking allowed in
> bars and dance clubs)
Dense crowds, loud noises, smoke, and alcohol make me uncomfortable.
People climbing all over for not liking gay clubs also make me
uncomfortable. Why do I have to like going to bars and clubs?
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
<sarcasm>Oh, of course, you're right there. Since all the local community
centers merged into one giant national organization of community centers
with centralized policymaking and uniform services, and since the MCC
started exerting strict control over the way each MCC church runs its
services (insuring that none of them break the doctrine), and since the
IGLIHA and other national and international gay sports organizations
basically took over all of the local sports clubs, the whole United States
and Canada have become one large heterogeneous gay playspace, where you
could travel from one city to the next and hardly know the difference.
It's about time all those petty European fiefdoms did the same and gave up
their little spheres of influence, all in the cause of the greater common
conformity.</sarcasm>
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
> >"Michael" <michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
Let me see if I understand the gist of what you're saying. It sounds like
this: Anybody who wants to compete -- err, participate -- in a sport
should be allowed to, regardless of ability or anything else. Winning is
not a laudable goal, and the whole concept of inequality, in any of its
forms, is deprecated. The whole idea of measuring people's performance
against any standard but themselves is Politically Incorrect, and
"competition" is a dirty word. Anybody who defends the idea of "best"
ought to have his head examined. Is this a fair assessment of your
position? (Give me credit here; I'm trying to understand your position.)
By the way, besides the fact that the USOC contains some assholes and they
prohibited the FOGG from calling itthe Gay Olympics, what's wrong with the
Olympics? Why should the Gay Games, which were originally called the Gay
Olympics, not be anything like the Olympics?
Cornelia Wyngaarden
(Give me credit here; I'm trying to understand your position.)
er that whooshing sound you heard is not just another hockey puck
flying over your head
corry
David W. Fenton
Ken Rudolph (ke...@thegrid.net) wrote:
: . . . How about fucking as a spectator sport? . .
You mean it's not already?
: . . . That usually works
: up a sweat and makes the heart beat faster for the participants. It
: would be a very popular spectator event, too, I think. Something
: like wrestling with hardons. It can even be choreographed or made
: synchronized. Judging would be based on difficulty of positions,
: flexibility, and athleticism.
I think the bottoms should be part of the judging committee.
And I guess they should have to be fucked by all the competitors in turn.
And I suppose the competitors could have "handicaps" based on penis
length/girth.
I think this idea of yours has promise, Ken.
Maybe a competition for _bottoms_, too?
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Michael
>
> People climbing all over for not liking gay clubs also make me
> uncomfortable. Why do I have to like going to bars and clubs?
Nobody says you have to like going to gay bars and clubs. But
you're generalisations about clubs are nonsense.
Mik
Michael
>>
>> is split up in many different countries. All with their own cultures,
>> all with their own gay cultures, all with their own gay organisations,
>> and all with their own gay sports organisations.
> <sarcasm>Oh, of course, you're right there. Since all the local community
> centers merged into one giant national organization of community centers
> [ETC]
Is is *that* time of the month again, or are you just very bitter
about something? Maybe you didn't win Gold?
Mik
Michael
>
>> is split up in many different countries. All with their own cultures,
>> all with their own gay cultures, all with their own gay organisations,
>> and all with their own gay sports organisations.
> <sarcasm>Oh, of course, you're right there. Since all the local community
> centers merged into one giant national organization of community centers
May I quote another post you wrote in this thread:
"Uhhh.... instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not say what you actually
think the Gay Games should be about?"
So, instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not simply reply to
what I have written?
Mik
Michael
bfoss wrote in message <35e26af9...@news.rcn.com>...
> mroede...@bestNoSpam.com (Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder) wrote:
>>
>> That's not my idea of a good time.
> people's parades?
And if I look at what you ("Timberwoof") have written earlier in this thread:
"If you don't want to do something, then for heaven's sake,
don't do it. And if you want to do something, then do it. Just
don't get upset when other people want to or don't want to
do things the same way that you do."
you start to sound a bit hypocritical, don't you?
Mik
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
> On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:30:42 -0700, mroede...@bestNoSpam.com
> (Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder) wrote:
> >
> >That's not my idea of a good time.
>
> Nor mine. But why do you feel such anger and desire to rain on other
> people's parades?
I feel anger over the sense that I get that I'm supposed to like those
situations I've described, and that those situations seem to be the only
ones in which I can meet gay men in a social setting, and that for not
liking them, I get made to feel like a social outcast.
As for raining on your parade, did I ever once say anything to the effect
that I was even considering letting the idea that others should not enjoy
themselves that way even have a debate over whether to enter my mind? Now
if you're upset that there's this one guy out there who doesn't have fun
the same way that you do, that's your problem.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
> bfoss wrote in message <35e26af9...@news.rcn.com>...
> > mroede...@bestNoSpam.com (Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder) wrote:
> >>
> >> That's not my idea of a good time.
> > Nor mine. But why do you feel such anger and desire to rain on other
> > people's parades?
>
> And if I look at what you ("Timberwoof") have written earlier in this thread:
>
> "If you don't want to do something, then for heaven's sake,
> don't do it. And if you want to do something, then do it. Just
> don't get upset when other people want to or don't want to
> do things the same way that you do."
>
> you start to sound a bit hypocritical, don't you?
Escuse me? I said I didn't like bars. I didn't say that you shouldn't go
to them. Unless you're using the word "hypocritical" in some new shade of
meaning with which I am not familiar.
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
> > "Michael" <michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
> >
> >> Another argument is that the US is a big country, whil Europe
> >> is split up in many different countries. All with their own cultures,
> >> all with their own gay cultures, all with their own gay organisations,
> >> and all with their own gay sports organisations.
> > <sarcasm>Oh, of course, you're right there. Since all the local community
> > centers merged into one giant national organization of community centers
> > [blah-blah-blah]
>
> May I quote another post you wrote in this thread:
>
> "Uhhh.... instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not say what you actually
> think the Gay Games should be about?"
>
> So, instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not simply reply to
> what I have written?
In article <903835998.29488....@news.demon.nl>, "Michael"
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
> bfoss wrote in message <35e26af9...@news.rcn.com>...
> > mroede...@bestNoSpam.com (Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder) wrote:
> >>
> >> That's not my idea of a good time.
> > Nor mine. But why do you feel such anger and desire to rain on other
> > people's parades?
>
> And if I look at what you ("Timberwoof") have written earlier in this thread:
>
> "If you don't want to do something, then for heaven's sake,
> don't do it. And if you want to do something, then do it. Just
> don't get upset when other people want to or don't want to
> do things the same way that you do."
>
> you start to sound a bit hypocritical, don't you?
In article <903833483.29022....@news.demon.nl>, "Michael"
<michael at michaeln dot demon dot nl> wrote:
> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> Another argument is that the US is a big country, whil Europe
> >> is split up in many different countries. All with their own cultures,
> >> all with their own gay cultures, all with their own gay organisations,
> >> and all with their own gay sports organisations.
> > <sarcasm>Oh, of course, you're right there. Since all the local community
> > centers merged into one giant national organization of community centers
>
> > [ETC]
>
> Is is *that* time of the month again, or are you just very bitter
> about something? Maybe you didn't win Gold?
With these posts, the discussion has degenerated into a metadiscussion.
From merely disagreeing with my opinions, you've sunk to handing out
personal insults. Enough!
Michael Timberwoof Roeder
(Jess Anderson) wrote:
> Michael Roeder:
>
> >Dense crowds, loud noises, smoke, and alcohol make me
> >uncomfortable.
>
> I hate dense crowds. I value my hearing too much to put up
> with lous noise. I smoke myself, but never in a closed
> space.
>
> >People climbing all over for not liking gay clubs also make
> >me uncomfortable.
>
> Well, nothing says you *have* to react to that.
>
> >Why do I have to like going to bars and clubs?
>
> You don't. And if the ambience is unpleasant or stressful,
> it would seem to me a little daffy if you did go, just
> because it's somehow expected.
That's the same conclusion I came to ... so I don't.
Jeffrey William McKeough
wrote:
>I am kind of a celeb I am the most OUT gay person on the net.
My popsicle stick had a joke on it.
--
Jeffrey William McKeough san...@shore.net
Stunningly Civil American Boy Jingoist from Massachusetts Bay
"No, not Florida! I wanna go to Scranton!" -Edith Bunker
Jeffrey William McKeough
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
>
>prescribed by those who are throwing the parties. I'm not one of those
>people, so I can only relate what I htink those rules are based opn what
>I've observed:
So I've been really frustrated at work, what with a week of tedious,
useless training on the worst software package ever written (more on
that later, I'm sure), and another week of doing not much of anything,
because there's not much of anything for me to do until the tenth of
September, once Dvora's current project has been happily live for a
bit and they do some box-juggling so we have a development box to use.
The other day I was making photocopies of the implementation guide for
the ANSI X-12 4010 standard 837 transaction set (Health Care Claims).
It was a pleasure after I spent three hours over two days attempting
the simple task of sending a fax, only to encounter every conceivable
error, and then be unable to reach the recipient by phone to see how
much I needed to resend. It was bad enough that I was thrilled to
have busywork to do. It was far worse that it got royally fucked up.
(At least Margaret, my manager, found the fax thing amusing,
especially since she and everyone else in the office hates (hate? I
need to brush up on my basic grammar) the el sucko fax machine to
begin with. She referred to the copy job as a "fax-equivalent
project", and didn't seem to concerned with how the fax failure
reflected on my general abilities.)
Anyway, the copying all went well until I was about halfway through.
This being my life, I had to interrupt the job to turn over the
machine to a just-arrived incident management team from Xerox (Hi,
Drew!), there to figure out what had caused a woman's hand to get
jammed in the machine ("We have 5000 of these out there, and I've
never heard of anything like this!"). So I hung around, and made a
couple of suggestions (I think they should put a sensor on the little
tray thing that you take the finished copies off of so that it doesn't
raise the tray until you have your hands out of the way), and then
decided that if Xerox wanted my suggestions, they could pay me for
them, and let them go about taking their digital pictures of their
technician with his hand jammed in the machine intentionally.
I managed to complete the copies (three copies each of hundreds of
double-sided pages!), and Margaret was pleased to have such a gifted
photocopyist on staff. (OK, so the conversation went something like:
Margaret: So how'd the copying go?
Me: It was fine until the incident management team from Xerox
showed up.
Margaret: <laughs>
Me: No, really. I mean an incident management team from Xerox
came to look at the machine.
Dvora says that eventually Margaret will understand the phenomenon of
the Jeff's Life Moment. She's already taken to introducing me to
people as "Jeff. I think he's going to be our weird one.")
ObRandom: Just a moment ago I had the thrilling experience of hearing
Ella Fitzgerald's "How High the Moon". I don't ever recall having
been so blown away by a song that I just had to stop and stare at my
CD player. I can't imagine what it must have been like to see her
live.
Jeffrey William McKeough
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
>
[big huge paragraph]
></sarcasm>
Sarcasm is way groovier if you can, like, convey it in the actual
writing.
Michael
Ellen Evans wrote in message ...
> Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
>> I feel anger over the sense that I get that I'm supposed to like those
>> situations I've described,
I didn't see anybody say that either.
>> and that those situations seem to be the only
>> ones in which I can meet gay men in a social setting,
> Yeah, cause (&deity) knows there aren't any gay bands or contra dancing
> groups or choruses or bicycle clubs or volunteer organizations or
... gay ice hockey teams.
Mik
Michael
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder wrote in message ...
>
> the same way that you do, that's your problem.
But if *you* are upset about other people having fun at parties,
you're allowed to put them down with all kinds of stupid
remarks?
Mik
Michael
>
>>> people's parades?
No, you used all kinds of negative stereotypes, to put people
who *do* like to go to parties, down:
"It appears to me that most of "gay culture" is about throwing huge
parties with no other meanings than to have a good time ... in the
syle and manner prescribed by those who are throwing the parties.
I'm not one of those people, so I can only relate what I htink those
rules are based opn what I've observed:
turn the sound system all the way up to 11 so that nobody can have
a good conversation
Get shit-faced drunk or completely stoned out of your mind on the
latest fashionable drugs
fuck all the boys you can find -- or get them to fuck you
eschew anyone who doesn't want to have fun in that manner
stay up until dawn and make sure that everyone in your apartment
building does, too
That's not my idea of a good time."
"Eschew anyone who doesn't want to have fun in that manner"?
It sounds more like you're 'eschewing' everyone who *does*
have fun in that manner. Hypocritical, thus.
Mikkie
--
http://www.michaeln.demon.nl
Michael
>> >
>> >> Another argument is that the US is a big country, whil Europe
>> >> is split up in many different countries. All with their own cultures,
>> >> all with their own gay cultures, all with their own gay organisations,
>> >> and all with their own gay sports organisations.
>> > <sarcasm>Oh, of course, you're right there. Since all the local community
>> > centers merged into one giant national organization of community centers
>> > [blah-blah-blah]
>>
>> May I quote another post you wrote in this thread:
>>
>> "Uhhh.... instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not say what you actually
>> think the Gay Games should be about?"
>>
>> So, instead of dripping with sarcasm, why not simply reply to
>> what I have written?
> From merely disagreeing with my opinions, you've sunk to handing out
> personal insults. Enough!
Maybe you should have
a) simply replied to my messages and
b) try not to be such a hypocrite by saying things to people, and then
getting angry when people say the same things to you.
So, why not simply reply to what I have written?
Mik
Jeffrey William McKeough
Michael "Timberwoof" Roeder <mroede...@bestNoSpam.com> wrote:
>
>getting together, having an athletic competition, and handing out medals
>to the winners, you are hereby excused from any further association with
>the movement.
The fact that the IRS chose to print the 1040-X form on newsprint has,
for me at least, been offset by the fact that the holes punched in my
expired passport by the State Department are the perfect distance
apart for me to be able to look through the passport cover like it was
a pair of glasses. The government gets a thumbs up from me this week.
And how did emacs get into text overwrite mode, anyway? I don't think
I hit insert.
Michael
Scott Safier wrote in message <35E02454...@telerama.lm.com>...
> Michael wrote:
>
>> Another argument is that the US is a big country, while Europe
>> is split up in many different countries. All with their own cultures,
>> all with their own gay cultures, all with their own gay organisations,
>> and all with their own gay sports organisations.
> change this on some levels over time.
Which is not always a good thing. The Dutch drugs laws are
getting more stringent because of the pressure of the French
government. A French government which is too stubborn to
admit that the Dutch drugs policy is working better than theirs,
and that *local* French authorities are adopting that policy.
Mik
Michael
Scott Safier wrote in message <35E021BE...@telerama.lm.com>...
>
> Scott, wondering if bake-offs should be a Gay Games event :-)
Home-furnishing should be!
Mik
Michael
Scott Safier wrote in message <35E01BB9...@telerama.lm.com>...
>
> I have never been to a circuit party in my life!!!!!
I have, at last. The Black Party at the Gay Games. Best party
of the Games IMHO, though that fist-fucking show wasn't really
necessary. FF is so passe...
Mik
Michael
Scott Safier wrote in message <35E01B59...@telerama.lm.com>...
> Michael Timberwoof Roeder wrote:
>
>> I feel anger over the sense that I get that I'm supposed to like those
>> ones in which I can meet gay men in a social setting, and that for not
>> liking them, I get made to feel like a social outcast.
Maybe he's even an social outcast in his hockey team...
Mik