love child of queer vocabulary
Tim Wilson
appearing", several people wanted me to compare the use of "no butch"
or "seeks femme" in womens' personal ads with the use of "straight
acting and appearing" in mens' ads. I was obstinant about not doing
so.
After talking with a friend (guess which gender), I've been informed
that that person often takes "femme" to be a *code word* for "straight
acting" in womens' ads. I took the usage to parallel the use of
"butch" in mens' ads: "femme" being stylized femininity as "butch" so
often refers to stylized masculinity, both being independent of
"straight acting".
I hope any irritation caused by my cluelessness wasn't permanent.
--
Tim Wilson
Internet: t...@ear-ache.mit.edu UUCP: mit-eddie!mit-athena!tim
Live and learn.
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
> Several threads ago, when we were discussing "straight acting and
> appearing", several people wanted me to compare the use of "no butch"
> or "seeks femme" in womens' personal ads with the use of "straight
> acting and appearing" in mens' ads. I was obstinant about not doing
> so.
>
> After talking with a friend (guess which gender), I've been informed
> that that person often takes "femme" to be a *code word* for "straight
> acting" in womens' ads. I took the usage to parallel the use of
> "butch" in mens' ads: "femme" being stylized femininity as "butch" so
> often refers to stylized masculinity, both being independent of
> "straight acting".
>
> I hope any irritation caused by my cluelessness wasn't permanent.
>
the thread and make just taht point. i've been reading the personals
rather a bit since i've moved down here. ALL the women's ads say "no
butches." after the third issue of Bay Windows, i got really depressed.
still am a bit. i thought once i moved to the Big City, i could meet
some women who would appreciate me. seems a little less likely
lately... i've also seen ads that say "no dykes" or "non-dykey" or
"discreet". i can figure those out without a decoder ring too - NO
AILSAS.
-ailsa
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ai...@wonky.uucp ________
You know I was always the last to follow Silence \ / Action
And I made it a point to be the first to laugh = \ / =
You know that kind of cool is kind of cold Death \ / Life
and hollow \/
And you can write that on my epitaph. -Ferron
Karina Haavik
>> After talking with a friend (guess which gender), I've been informed
>> that that person often takes "femme" to be a *code word* for "straight
>> acting" in womens' ads. I took the usage to parallel the use of
>> "butch" in mens' ads: "femme" being stylized femininity as "butch" so
>> often refers to stylized masculinity, both being independent of
>> "straight acting".
Ailsa N. T. Murphy writes:
>i missed it, as a matter of fact, although i was going to post to
>the thread and make just that point. i've been reading the personals
>rather a bit since i've moved down here. ALL the women's ads say "no
>butches." [...] i've also seen ads that say "no dykes" or "non-dykey" or
>"discreet".
I sometimes accept 'femme' as just meaning femme, if there are not other
negative things in the ad. (I also don't call, because I don't want a femme.)
The one that really punches my buttons is 'feminine.' It is used by people who
have a totally different definition of femininty than I do, and translates
as 'I am a paranoid fucked-up dyke with a closet fetish. You can't call me
at the office. You can't even touch me. And I'll leave you for a man (the
sooner the better) to re-establish my het credentials'. Whereas "discrete"
just means straight-acting and appearing, which I guess some women can deal
with.
Ailsa - when you go through the ads and rule out the 'no dykes', the 'femme's
and the 'feminine's, the 'no people not exactly like me's, and the unspeakably
flakey, how many ads do you have left? Here in Philly, it's one, max. Usually
from a 50 yo woman who wants someone to walk on the beach with her and her
spaniel. AAAaaaarrrgh!
Good luck!
Karina
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karina Haavik ****** kar...@seas.upenn.edu *** Comet #2970
It looks like a boat. It leaks like a boat. It must be a boat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Pierce
>The one that really punches my buttons is 'feminine.' It is used by people who
>have a totally different definition of femininty than I do, and translates
>as
>...
>'And I'll leave you for a man (the
>sooner the better) to re-establish my het credentials'.
I *beg* your pardon.
--
____ Tim Pierce / ?Usted es la de la tele, eh? !La madre
\ / twpi...@unix.amherst.edu / del asesino! !Ay, que graciosa!
\/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / -- Pedro Almodovar
Peggy Fieland
>and the 'feminine's, the 'no people not exactly like me's, and the unspeakably
>flakey, how many ads do you have left? Here in Philly, it's one, max. Usually
>from a 50 yo woman who wants someone to walk on the beach with her and her
>spaniel. AAAaaaarrrgh!
Well, there are a small number of female personal ads in Bay Windows
anyway, and after eliminating the ones that are hung up on "sex roles"
or whatever you want to call it, there can be no ads at all.
And it's possible to go for weeks without seeing an ad from a bisexual
woman.
I get really jealous when I pick up the Village Voice...
Peggy
Former New York City resident
Clay Colwell
In article <113...@netnews.upenn.edu>, kar...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Karina Haavik) writes:
[...]
> Whereas "discrete"
> just means straight-acting and appearing, which I guess some women can deal
> with.
[...]
Gee. And I thought "discrete" meant "distinct". :-)
(Sorry. Couldn't resist. The subject header made me do it.)
--
Clay Colwell (screaming grammar princess? Hmmmmmmmm, could be)
arch...@vnet.ibm.com Disclaimer: These are *my* opinions, not
IBM Austin, TX necessarily those of IBM. Got a problem? See *me*.
S0/4 b g- l-/+ y- z- n o- x- a+/++ u/- v-/+ j-/+ (subject to correxion)
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
>>i missed it, as a matter of fact, although i was going to post to
>>the thread and make just that point. i've been reading the personals
>>rather a bit since i've moved down here. ALL the women's ads say "no
>>butches." [...] i've also seen ads that say "no dykes" or "non-dykey" or
>>"discreet".
>
> I sometimes accept 'femme' as just meaning femme, if there are not other
> negative things in the ad. (I also don't call, because I don't want a femme.)
> The one that really punches my buttons is 'feminine.' It is used by people who
> have a totally different definition of femininty than I do, and translates
> as 'I am a paranoid fucked-up dyke with a closet fetish. You can't call me
> at the office. You can't even touch me. And I'll leave you for a man (the
> sooner the better) to re-establish my het credentials'. Whereas "discrete"
> just means straight-acting and appearing, which I guess some women can deal
> with.
>
NOT one, so femme seeks femme ads are out. and i'm NOT discreet, not
even vaguely, so THAT'S out. and i AM butch, so "no butches" ads are
out. (hell, even if the people who write those ads might say i'm not
butch enough to count, i don't want to date someone who'd say that.)
i don't want to even TRY going out with someone on the closet, cos i;d
be scared to death of outing her all the time, and i'd never be able to
relax.
wouldn't mind meeting an old-fashioned femme who LIKES butches...
> Ailsa - when you go through the ads and rule out the 'no dykes', the 'femme's
> and the 'feminine's, the 'no people not exactly like me's, and the unspeakably
> flakey, how many ads do you have left? Here in Philly, it's one, max. Usually
> from a 50 yo woman who wants someone to walk on the beach with her and her
> spaniel. AAAaaaarrrgh!
>
sounds about right. but then she's seeking someone "35 to 50" *sigh*
if i'm not ruled out by style, i'm ruled out by age. i've found that,
at 29, so far as the lesbian community is concerned, i'm not a grownup
yet...
> Good luck!
>
thanks, i'll need it. if you run across a nonmonogamous dyke who likes
butches and lives in the boston area, DO send her my way...
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
>
> In article <113...@netnews.upenn.edu> kar...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Karina Haavik) writes:
>>Ailsa - when you go through the ads and rule out the 'no dykes', the 'femme's
>>and the 'feminine's, the 'no people not exactly like me's, and the unspeakably
>>flakey, how many ads do you have left? Here in Philly, it's one, max. Usually
>>from a 50 yo woman who wants someone to walk on the beach with her and her
>>spaniel. AAAaaaarrrgh!
>
> Well, there are a small number of female personal ads in Bay Windows
> anyway, and after eliminating the ones that are hung up on "sex roles"
> or whatever you want to call it, there can be no ads at all.
>
> And it's possible to go for weeks without seeing an ad from a bisexual
> woman.
>
ad instead of reading them... then at least there woudl be ONE ad from
a bi nonmonogamous butch dyke *grin* i wonder if i'd get any calls from
WOMEN. running a lesbian or bi ad is a GREAT way to meet men, i ahve
found. anybody ELSE out there ever been dumb enough to post
alt.personals? B(
> I get really jealous when I pick up the Village Voice...
>
i USED to get really jealous when i read _bay windows_. maine's ads are
worse. there may well be aan intersting woman, but she's in saco, and
i'm in brewer, and she's actually looking for someone 35 or over anyway,
and...
Tim Wilson
Murphy) writes:
thanks, i'll need it. if you run across a nonmonogamous dyke who
likes butches and lives in the boston area, DO send her my way...
So what happened with that woman who gave you the very heavy cruise
that night at the Ramrod?
tim (who doesn't know how to get e-mail to Ailsa)
--
Tim Wilson
Internet: t...@ear-ache.mit.edu UUCP: mit-eddie!mit-athena!tim
More data, more noise. (Jerry Lettvin)
Max Meredith Vasilatos
>and i AM butch, so "no butches" ads are
>out. (hell, even if the people who write those ads might say i'm not
>butch enough to count, i don't want to date someone who'd say that.)
If you were really butch, you'd date her and change her mind. :-)
[ more complaints about being ruled out by various restrictions ]
> if you run across a nonmonogamous dyke who likes
>butches and lives in the boston area, DO send her my way...
I have a Bay Windows here. In the Calendar section are:
Daughters of Bilitis (DOB) Wild Women bowling
Women's Rugby
Women's soccer
Women's softball
Softball, DOB
Women's golf ('SWING')
Women's volleyball (3 listings)
Boston Living Center recovery groups, massages, classes
Metropolitan Community Church
Dignity-Integrity
Women's Caucus of the Log Cabin Club
GAMIT Study Breaks
Out and About, Portsmouth lesbian social and support group
Job Search Support Group for Lesbians
Boston Quality Women
Amethyst Women (events for lesbians and their women friends)
ACT UP
NAMES Project
Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Freedom Trail Concert and Marching Band
Women's Center: Lesbian Rap, Bisexual Woman's Rap, Open Discussion
on Coming Out for Women of All Ages, Women for Sobriety, Writer's
Support Group, Women's Writing Group, Post-Abortion Support Group,
Reproductive Rights National Network, Survival in the Workplace
to name a few. I have little sympathy for your griping about not
meeting people through the personal ads.
Jessica L. Babylon
>>
>nope. i missed it, as a matter of fact, although i was goign to post to
>the thread and make just taht point. i've been reading the personals
>rather a bit since i've moved down here. ALL the women's ads say "no
>butches." after the third issue of Bay Windows, i got really depressed.
>still am a bit. i thought once i moved to the Big City, i could meet
>some women who would appreciate me. seems a little less likely
>lately... i've also seen ads that say "no dykes" or "non-dykey" or
>"discreet". i can figure those out without a decoder ring too - NO
>AILSAS.
Which city is this? Hmmm? Cough it up girlfrien'...B-town is it? IF
so, never fear m'dear...the Goddess of Scandalous is here...and she
has lots of friends in B-town:) write me.
>
> -ailsa
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> ai...@wonky.uucp ________
> You know I was always the last to follow Silence \ / Action
> And I made it a point to be the first to laugh = \ / =
> You know that kind of cool is kind of cold Death \ / Life
> and hollow \/
> And you can write that on my epitaph. -Ferron
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
J'aime beaucoup votre moustache. C'est charmant sur une dame d'un
certain age."
"The lunatic, the lover and the poet are of imagination all compact."
- Theseus "Midsummer Night's Dream"
Alternative SEXuality is not a disease. AIDS is a disease. Stop AIDS!
============================================================================
Jesica L. Babylon - Goddess of Scandalous - EMAIL : j_ba...@oz.plymouth.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karina Haavik
(Max Meredith Vasilatos) writes:
>I have a Bay Windows here. In the Calendar section are:
>
>Daughters of Bilitis (DOB) Wild Women bowling
Really??? I haven't heard of then in years. Thought they died out in the
'70s. Silly me....
> [.....]
>to name a few. I have little sympathy for your griping about not
>meeting people through the personal ads.
We don't have nearly that many groups in Philly.
Jessica L. Babylon
>>
>hmm.... you know, this makes me think i ought to just RUN a personals
>ad instead of reading them... then at least there woudl be ONE ad from
>a bi nonmonogamous butch dyke *grin* i wonder if i'd get any calls from
>WOMEN. running a lesbian or bi ad is a GREAT way to meet men, i ahve
>found. anybody ELSE out there ever been dumb enough to post
>alt.personals? B(
Hey, i post to alt.personals(and i'm not the token dyke, either...they
lurk alot so as not to get bashed by the het boyz) but not of course
for a "life-materini(ala SNL)" but just to flame the desperate geeks
and homophobic bigots and ignorant assholes who insist that "normalcy"
is white hetroseshuls. *sigh* i'm doing my best....the het boyz
outnumber me but i'm digging out some really cool dykely wimmin...and
the ones i don't dig out i convert *wink*;)
>
> -ailsa
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> ai...@wonky.uucp ________
> You know I was always the last to follow Silence \ / Action
> And I made it a point to be the first to laugh = \ / =
> You know that kind of cool is kind of cold Death \ / Life
> and hollow \/
> And you can write that on my epitaph. -Ferron
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any work of art, provided it springs from a sincere motivation to
further understanding between people, is an act of faith and therefore
is an act of love." - Truman Capote
Max Meredith Vasilatos
>m...@athena.mit.edu (Max Meredith Vasilatos) writes:
>>I have a Bay Windows here. In the Calendar section are:
>>Daughters of Bilitis (DOB) Wild Women bowling
>Really??? I haven't heard of then in years. Thought they died out in the
>'70s. Silly me....
Boston hosts the last surviving chapter of DOB. They've
sponsored all sorts of social events since their inception
in the 1955.
>> [ some locations and groups where queer women gather in
>> the Boston area. ]
>>to name a few.
>We don't have nearly that many groups in Philly.
How do you know? The groups I listed aren't the only ones here.
They're just some of the ones listed in the Calendar section of
a local gay paper.
Want to meet women? Take a women's martial arts class. Take
a women's studies course. Join a women's sports team. Go to
women's recovery meetings. Go to the women's center and look
at the bulletin board. Go to the women's bookstore and look
at the bulletin board. Read whatever passes for feminist news-
(letter/paper/magazine) in your city. You live in a city.
I've lived in Philadelphia. I met plenty of women, mostly
lesbian streetwalkers. But that was my preference. Do
whatever floats your boat, in the company of women, if you
want to meet likeminded women.
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
> Murphy) writes:
>
> thanks, i'll need it. if you run across a nonmonogamous dyke who
> likes butches and lives in the boston area, DO send her my way...
>
> So what happened with that woman who gave you the very heavy cruise
> that night at the Ramrod?
>
children's museum (she has a kid about teh same age as katy). so i wan
to call her and ask her if she'd like to go. but she's only free
weekends, and so am i only free weekends due to my &*^$%^*O&^@* night
job, and my weekends since the get-together have been shot. *sigh*
and i'm an idiot. i should have called her anyway. lesbian sheep
anybody?
> tim (who doesn't know how to get e-mail to Ailsa)
>
it CAN be difficult. i can't get mail to you either. i've tried
before, when we were planning the brent.dinner.....
-ailsa
who feels REAL SILLY right now
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
> ai...@wonky.UUCP (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>> kar...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Karina Haavik) writes:
>>> Ailsa N. T. Murphy writes:
> [ complaints about personal ads ]
>
>>and i AM butch, so "no butches" ads are
>>out. (hell, even if the people who write those ads might say i'm not
>>butch enough to count, i don't want to date someone who'd say that.)
>
> If you were really butch, you'd date her and change her mind. :-)
>
> [ more complaints about being ruled out by various restrictions ]
>
>> if you run across a nonmonogamous dyke who likes
>>butches and lives in the boston area, DO send her my way...
>
> I have a Bay Windows here. In the Calendar section are:
>
> Daughters of Bilitis (DOB) Wild Women bowling
DOB was one of the groups i wanted to call the other day when i was
calling groups to see about going to some meetings and stuff, but they
aren't in the Gayellow Pages that i have. i was worried for a bit that
they'd gone away before i could join...
[rest of list snipped, point taken]
>
> to name a few. I have little sympathy for your griping about not
> meeting people through the personal ads.
>
okay, okay, okay! *Sigh* can't a person bitch anymore? i take your
point. i should get off my lazy butt and stop expecting people to make
it easy for me.
but i STILL don't like it when personals ads say "no butches" or "no
dykes"...
Tim Wilson
Murphy) writes:
In article <TIM.93Ma...@ear-ache.mit.edu>,
t...@ear-ache.mit.edu (Tim Wilson) writes:
> So what happened with that woman who gave you the very heavy cruise
> that night at the Ramrod?
well, i have her number. and i have a family membership to the boston
children's museum (she has a kid about teh same age as katy). so i wan
to call her and ask her if she'd like to go. but she's only free
weekends, and so am i only free weekends due to my &*^$%^*O&^@* night
job, and my weekends since the get-together have been shot. *sigh*
Well, if you want chaperones, let Drew and me know. We'd be happy to
take in the Children's Museum. We're both kids at heart!
and i'm an idiot. i should have called her anyway. lesbian sheep
anybody?
Call her if you want to. Or don't kick yourself. It's your choice.
Robert Learnard Mcgee
>
>>>I have a Bay Windows here. In the Calendar section are:
>>>Daughters of Bilitis (DOB) Wild Women bowling
Whence "Bilitis" in "DOB"? Frankly, it sounds vaguely like some sort
of abdominal infection.
Tanks!
Rob
Max Meredith Vasilatos
>m...@athena.mit.edu (Max Meredith Vasilatos) writes:
>>>>Daughters of Bilitis (DOB) Wild Women bowling
>Attention Classical Studies Queens!!!
> Whence "Bilitis" in "DOB"? Frankly, it sounds vaguely like some sort
>of abdominal infection.
You don't need a Classical Studies Queen.
From Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon's _Lesbian/Woman_ (1972):
So in our eagerness to meet other Lesbians, we found
ourselves on the evening of September 21, 1955, laying
plans for a secret Lesbian club. ... At the fourth
meeting there still remained the question of a name
for the fledgling organization.
"How about Daughters of Bilitis?" Nancy suggested.
The rest of us looked at her blankly.
"I ran across this book by Pierre Louys that has in
it this long poem called 'Songs of Bilitis.'" Nancy
held up the volume she'd been holding in her lap.
"It's really quite beautiful love poetry, but what's
even more interesting, Bilitis is supposed to have
lived on Lesbos at the time of Sappho."
"We thought that 'Daughters of Bilitis' would sound
like any other women's lodge - you know, like the
Daughters of the Nile or the DAR," Priscilla added.
"'Bilitis' would mean something to us, but not to any
outsider. If anyone asked us, we could always say
we belong to a poetry club."
And so Daughters of Bilitis came into being.
Another "insiders'" name that turned out badly, by its
non-pronounceability and opaque origins, was Samois
(lesbian SM group in SF, now defunct). Samois was
the name of an estate where women submitted/learned/
indulged/taught SM, in _The Story of O_.