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Bird Rendell H.

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May 5, 1992, 4:36:03 PM5/5/92
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Are any soc.motssketers going to the Internation Mister Leather contest?
(*besides me, of course*).

I am rather honor-bound to go. A good friend of mine is going to be
a contestant, and his lover has decided that Chicago is too
"inconvenient" to visit at this present time of year. Plus, no
one else (I know of) in New Orleans is going to go.
So I have decided to go.

Rendell

George Dalton Madison

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May 5, 1992, 10:22:38 PM5/5/92
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Rendell Bird writes:
>Are any soc.motssketers going to the Internation Mister Leather contest?
>(*besides me, of course*).
>
>I am rather honor-bound to go.

Sorry to hear it.

>A good friend of mine is going to be
>a contestant, and his lover has decided that Chicago is too
>"inconvenient" to visit at this present time of year. Plus, no

Well, unless he's a perfect IML Clone, he hasn't got a
snowball's chance in Hell of winning that contest. It's
rigged top to bottom -- and I have this from a former
JUDGE, as well as a former finalist who saw the MC helping
the eventual winner that year write his acceptance speech
before the finalists were even ANNOUNCED.

() He was so crooked you could use him to pull corks
() with...
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> fu...@cup.portal.com <]

Roger Phillips

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May 6, 1992, 4:22:11 PM5/6/92
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r...@ucs.usl.edu (Bird Rendell H.) writes:
> Are any soc.motssketers going to the Internation Mister Leather contest?
> (*besides me, of course*).
>
> I am rather honor-bound to go.

I'm sure half-binding would be adequate. :-)

--
Roger Phillips ro...@quantime.co.uk
"The best way to find something you've lost is to buy a replacement."
-- Ann Landers

Bird Rendell H.

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May 7, 1992, 10:39:16 AM5/7/92
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Furr sez:
>Well, unless he's a perfect IML Clone, he hasn't got a
>snowball's chance in Hell of winning that contest.


True. My friend already knows this fact, and he is going
anyway. He considers this a chance to get a free vacation
out of the leather club that he has been paying dues to for
some time.

;-)


Besides, he and I are supposed to go see the Chicago Art
Institute together....works for me!

Rendell

David Stevenson

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May 7, 1992, 3:54:26 PM5/7/92
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Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) tells all:

>
>Well, unless he's a perfect IML Clone, he hasn't got a
>snowball's chance in Hell of winning that contest. It's
>rigged top to bottom -- and I have this from a former

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ interesting choice of expression, George

>JUDGE, as well as a former finalist who saw the MC helping
>the eventual winner that year write his acceptance speech
>before the finalists were even ANNOUNCED.
>

You seem surprised (or shocked) at such behavior. Really,
George, it's just entertainment. Besides, I don't think you'd
want to listen to what some of those boys would mumble without
a ghostwriter.

And everyone knows one of the benefits of being an IML judge
is you get to personally audition the candidates of your choice.

Bryan J. Blumberg

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May 7, 1992, 7:08:30 PM5/7/92
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In article <58...@cup.portal.com> Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton

Madison) wrote:
>Well, unless he's a perfect IML Clone, he hasn't got a
>snowball's chance in Hell of winning that contest. It's
>rigged top to bottom -- and I have this from a former
>JUDGE, as well as a former finalist who saw the MC helping
>the eventual winner that year write his acceptance speech
>before the finalists were even ANNOUNCED.
>
>[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors!
<]
>[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> fu...@cup.portal.com
<]

Dear Furrness,

I did not get the impression that D. Cannon (the 1991 IML winner)
knew he was going to win until he actually won. At least, he sure
seemed hopeful before he went and elated about winning after he came
back last year.

Do you have any information relating to D's winning, or is
your friend talking about a prior year?

Your friend,
BJJB

========================================
Bryan J. Blumberg, The MacNeal-Schwendler Corporation
815 Colorado Boulevard, Los Angeles, California 90041-1777
(213) 259-4914, B_BLU...@MACSCH.COM

George Dalton Madison

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May 7, 1992, 9:52:11 PM5/7/92
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Rendell Writes:
>Furr sez:
>>Well, unless he's a perfect IML Clone, he hasn't got a
>>snowball's chance in Hell of winning that contest.
>
>True. My friend already knows this fact, and he is going
>anyway. He considers this a chance to get a free vacation
>out of the leather club that he has been paying dues to for
>some time.
>;-)

Sounds fine to me -- as long as he knows what he's getting
into. You wouldn't believe the denial I get from some people
on the subject -- even after showing them the rogue's gallery
of cookie-cutter winners.

In any case, have fun -- I've been told that it's *major* party
time in Chicago that weekend.

() He was the patron saint of quality footwear.
() -- David St. Hubbins, on Saint Hubbins

George Dalton Madison

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May 7, 1992, 9:59:54 PM5/7/92
to
David Stevenson writes:
>Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) tells all:
>>Well, unless he's a perfect IML Clone, he hasn't got a
>>snowball's chance in Hell of winning that contest. It's
>>rigged top to bottom -- and I have this from a former
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^ interesting choice of expression, George

Thank you. ;-)

>>JUDGE, as well as a former finalist who saw the MC helping
>>the eventual winner that year write his acceptance speech
>>before the finalists were even ANNOUNCED.
>>
>You seem surprised (or shocked) at such behavior. Really,
>George, it's just entertainment. Besides, I don't think you'd

Maybe, but that's not how it's *presented*. If the contest
were called "Mr. International Dude-Who-Makes-Chuck
Renslow's-Dick-Hardest" I wouldn't have any problem.

>want to listen to what some of those boys would mumble without
>a ghostwriter.

Writing assistance is one thing. Contest rigging is something
else entirely.

>And everyone knows one of the benefits of being an IML judge
>is you get to personally audition the candidates of your choice.

Which just makes it worse, IMHO.

Another thing that pisses me off is that if all the winners were
*MY* type -- furry, bearded Daddy Bears -- people would have been
screaming "*FIX!*" at the top of their lungs years ago.

(Perfect example of someone who should have won IML: Michel
Rousse, back in '86 or so.... but no, he's bearded & furry...)

() I pledge impertinence to the flag-waving
() Of the unindicted co-conspirators of America
() And to the Republicans for which I can't stand
() One abomination, underhanded fraud, indefensible
() With liberty and justice forget it.
() -- Bongo, Life in Hell

Bob Donahue

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May 8, 1992, 9:56:57 AM5/8/92
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Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>Maybe, but that's not how it's *presented*. If the contest
>were called "Mr. International Dude-Who-Makes-Chuck
>Renslow's-Dick-Hardest" I wouldn't have any problem.

>Another thing that pisses me off is that if all the winners were


>*MY* type -- furry, bearded Daddy Bears -- people would have been
>screaming "*FIX!*" at the top of their lungs years ago.

While I agree it is nice to see some variety, the thing is
that the "leather" icon is and will prob. always be the "Tom of Finland"
look: Teutonic, cop sort of thing, despite how hot furry, bearded
Daddy Bears look in leather. I think it's a case of your Mr. International
Leather icon not matching what others' are. Neither is better or
worse, but you might as well get used to it until the fad changes.
Or, if you want to be assured that the winner is your type, start up
"Mr. Internation Daddy Bear Leather". Sure, it's not the same thing,
but think of all the fun you can have objectifying *all* of the
participants [since by design they'll all be your type {and mine too, sigh}].

No, wait - I guess you'd have to change the name, since the "B"
word is owned now. How about "Mr. International Daddy Ursine Leather"
(MIDUL) - oh hell, call it anything you like... just sned me a snap of the
winner...


BBC

George Dalton Madison

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May 8, 1992, 10:04:47 PM5/8/92
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Bryan Blumberg writes:
>I did not get the impression that D. Cannon (the 1991
>IML winner) knew he was going to win until he actually
>won. [...] Do you have any information relating to
>D's winning, or is your friend talking about a prior year?

Prior years, though "D" holds to the pattern of the IML Clone
quite well: gym body, little to no body fur, moustache. The
most surprising thing about him is the fact he's African-
American; most of the IML winners have been Wonder Bread.

The fact is that if you pick any individual winner, you can
find something somewhat anomalous about them from the overall
pattern; that isn't the point. The point is that NO ONE who
deviates in appearance more than a very limited degree from
the "Perfect IML Clone" image *EVER* wins the contest.

To take an example near and dear to a Bear's heart, a bearded
man has **NEVER** won the IML contest. EVER. In the face of
the facts that (1) bearded men are more common in the leather
community than even the gay community at large, and (2) that
OVER 50% of the Mr. Drummer contest winners have been bearded
should give you an idea that something's rotten in Chicago.

Of course, as one friend pointed out, it fits in very nicely with
Chicago's long history of corruption.

() "Tempting *PIGEONS*? Is that your idea of fun?"
() "Banal as it may seem, Stanley, it *IS* my job."
() -- from _Bedazzled_
-----

George Dalton Madison

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May 8, 1992, 10:14:15 PM5/8/92
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Bob Donahue writes:
>>Another thing that pisses me off is that if all the winners were
>>*MY* type -- furry, bearded Daddy Bears -- people would have been
>>screaming "*FIX!*" at the top of their lungs years ago.
>While I agree it is nice to see some variety, the thing is
>that the "leather" icon is and will prob. always be the "Tom of Finland"
>look: Teutonic, cop sort of thing, despite how hot furry, bearded
>Daddy Bears look in leather.

Ah, but the winners of the Mr. Drummer contest -- very similar
concept, IMHO -- have been over 50% bearded, and all the rest
(I believe) moustached....

>I think it's a case of your Mr. International
>Leather icon not matching what others' are.

But that's not really the point, as I see it. This is supposed
to be (is presented in the gay media as) an annual search for
"the hottest leatherman," **NOT** "the hottest leatherman of the
Tom of Finland type."

"Leatherman" covers one *hell* of a lot of ground -- and while I
concede you're probably not going to see a winner with a Bear
Belly before there's skiing in Hades, the *INCREDIBLY* narrow
focus of the IML farce is *insulting*. I see regional winners in
_The Leather Journal_ with big smiles on their furry faces, and I
*KNOW* beyond doubt that they haven't a chance to win. THAT is
truly sad -- not that the contest is all that important, but I
think it's just so UNFAIR to the contestants to have this hidden
agenda.

As I said before, if they stated that they were looking for a
specific type, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's this
joke that it's the best leatherman of all that wins that pisses
me off.

() I will give up my beard when they shave it from my cold,
() dead face!
() -- Peter Thomas (From the "Razor's Anonymous" Handbook)

Eamonn McManus

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May 9, 1992, 6:31:32 AM5/9/92
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Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) quotes:

>() I pledge impertinence to the flag-waving
>() Of the unindicted co-conspirators of America
>() And to the Republicans for which I can't stand
>() One abomination, underhanded fraud, indefensible
>() With liberty and justice forget it.
>() -- Bongo, Life in Hell

Ignorant question here, but though I own The Big Book of Hell and have
read this cartoon, the parody is lost on me. I gather is based on
something called the Pledge of Allegiance (have I got that right?)
that George Bush is very keen on. Could someone mail me the original
words for my enlightenment?

,
Eamonn, American wannabe (or not)

Eamonn McManus

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May 9, 1992, 9:20:03 AM5/9/92
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I asked if someone could mail me the unparodied words of the US Pledge
of Allegiance that is inflicted on schoolchildren. Jess Anderson
kindly obliged, so for the benefit of other non-USans:

George [Bush], alas, is not alone in his zealous embrace of the
original text, which is (lemme see, I have not said this
even once since I was 9 years old):

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands,
one nation, under God, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.

The words "under God" were added in 1952. I don't know when
the rest came to be. Part of the cabal ritual is to place
one's right hand over one's heart whilst reciting this crap.

,
Eamonn

Nelson Minar

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May 9, 1992, 5:13:14 PM5/9/92
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In article <mrs...@vadier.gr.osf.org> emcm...@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:
>[pledge of allegience]

>Jess says:
> The words "under God" were added in 1952. I don't know when
> the rest came to be.

I hope one of our more historical minded motssers fills in the
details, because I don't remember them all, but I seem to remember
that the Pledge of Allegience was originally a poem written in a
magazine for boys, kind of like Boys Life is.

Furthermore, the magazine had some strong political bias, though I
can't remember if it was socialist, or anti-Red, or what.
--
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ Love under will

Nelson Minar

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May 9, 1992, 5:21:44 PM5/9/92
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In article <1992May9.2...@reed.edu> nel...@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) gaffes:
>allegience
>Allegience

Well, I learned something today. It's spelled "allegiance".

Nelson, trying to stem the flood of alt.flame.spelling posts.
--
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ Don't tread on me

Richard Poppen

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May 9, 1992, 6:43:25 PM5/9/92
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In article <1992May9.2...@reed.edu> nel...@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>In article <mrs...@vadier.gr.osf.org> emcm...@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:
>>[pledge of allegience]
>>Jess says:
>> The words "under God" were added in 1952. I don't know when
>> the rest came to be.
>
>I hope one of our more historical minded motssers fills in the
>details, because I don't remember them all, but I seem to remember
>that the Pledge of Allegience was originally a poem written in a
>magazine for boys, kind of like Boys Life is.

I don't know about that, but I remember reading that the phrase
"of the United States of America" was also added, though long before
"under God". The original had a much better, slow, majestic flow (read
it aloud):


I pledge allegiance to the flag

and to the republic for which it stands

one nation, indivisible,


with liberty and justice for all.

The phrase "of the United States of America" breaks up the flow,
though not as badly as "under God".

"One nation, indivisible" means, basically, "don't try seceding again."

The part about "liberty and justice for all" is part of our mythology;
have we ever *really* tried to achieve it?

Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth seems questionable at best
anyway. Are there other countries that consider their flags sacred the
way most Americans do? (If you think "sacred" is too strong, remember
that the flag-burning uproar was almost entirely phrased in terms of
"desecration".)

--Rich, who should be working today

Michael S. Pettersen

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May 9, 1992, 9:57:50 PM5/9/92
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In article <8ajklb...@netcom.com>, ri...@netcom.com (Richard Poppen) writes:

> Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth seems questionable at best
> anyway. Are there other countries that consider their flags sacred the
> way most Americans do? (If you think "sacred" is too strong, remember
> that the flag-burning uproar was almost entirely phrased in terms of
> "desecration".)
>
> --Rich, who should be working today

We had a protest on campus after the Rodney King verdict, after which a
small group remained and burned the flag that flew in front of the
admnistration building. The outcry over the flag burning was nearly
as great as that over the verdict.

It nauseates me.
--
Mike Pettersen
Ohio State Physics, m...@ohstpy.bitnet, m...@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Perfect love casteth out fear.

Shawn Hicks

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May 9, 1992, 11:38:44 PM5/9/92
to

An interesting side note about IML this year....

For the first time several of the candidates are deaf. I met a nice
boy from L.A. at the local M.C. Run last weekend who is going to Chicago
for that very reason. (Hi Tony!)


Shawn

JON THUMIM

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May 10, 1992, 1:13:07 AM5/10/92
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In article <mrs...@vadier.gr.osf.org> emcm...@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:
>I asked if someone could mail me the unparodied words of the US Pledge
>of Allegiance that is inflicted on schoolchildren. Jess Anderson
>kindly obliged, so for the benefit of other non-USans:
>

> one nation, under God, indivisible,
^^^^^^^^^^^

We always said "invisible". Anyone else?

> Part of the cabal ritual is to place
> one's right hand over one's heart whilst reciting this crap.

That is if you knew which was your right hand and where your heart was.

Peace.
Jon

"I must be willing to give up what I am in order to become what I will
be."
-Albert Einstein

Leslie Hechtel

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May 10, 1992, 1:50:30 PM5/10/92
to
In article <8ajklb...@netcom.com> ri...@netcom.com (Richard Poppen) writes:
>>>[pledge of allegience]

>
>Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth seems questionable at best
>anyway. Are there other countries that consider their flags sacred the
>way most Americans do? (If you think "sacred" is too strong, remember
>that the flag-burning uproar was almost entirely phrased in terms of
>"desecration".)
>

I think there are a lot of countries who consider their flags a whole
lot more sacred. For all the political crap surrounding the flag-burning
issue these last few years, Americans _are_ free to display their
country's flag if they wish (OK, there are some decorum restrictions).
But in many countries, only the gov't can display the flag; citizens
can't. (c.f. a National Geographic article about Poland? Czeckoslovakia?
a few years back.)

Leslie
(who also should be working, and who's definitely not going to run
up to my office and dig around old NG's looking for the reference)

--
Leslie M. Hechtel
Dept. of Meteorology
1225 W. Dayton St.
Madison WI 53706 Internet:hec...@meteor.wisc.edu

Gene Ward Smith

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May 10, 1992, 4:39:10 PM5/10/92
to
In article <mrs...@vadier.gr.osf.org> emcm...@gr.osf.org (Eamonn
McManus) writes:

>I asked if someone could mail me the unparodied words of the US Pledge
>of Allegiance that is inflicted on schoolchildren. Jess Anderson
>kindly obliged, so for the benefit of other non-USans:

> I pledge allegiance to the flag


> of the United States of America,
> and to the republic for which it stands,
> one nation, under God, indivisible,
> with liberty and justice for all.

> The words "under God" were added in 1952. I don't know when
> the rest came to be. Part of the cabal ritual is to place
> one's right hand over one's heart whilst reciting this crap.

For those who are wondering when I came to possess the peculiar mental
attitude which so often annoys so many, a story about my childhood. I
was taught this little ritual in grade school, like everyone else. At
first I was happy and proud to say it. Then in the third grade, I
noticed that it said "I pledge allegiance to the flag", and I realized
that pledging allegiance to a flag was impossible, and that this was a
lie. I told my teacher that I didn't want to pledge allegiance to the
flag anymore, and that I would rather pledge allegiance to the
government of the United States instead if that was OK.

Well, this ended up with a discussion with my teacher and the school's
principal, among others. They all carefully explained that the
language was symbolic, and when I got older it wouldn't bother me.
Finally, feeling very uncomfortable, I pretended to agree. After that
I would just mumble over this part.

The point is, I'm sorry if it bothers people but this really is how I
think.
--
Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/CICMA/Concordia University
gsm...@concour.cs.concordia.ca

D. Owen Rowley

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May 11, 1992, 3:46:55 AM5/11/92
to
In article <1992May10....@meteor.wisc.edu> hec...@meteor.wisc.edu (Leslie Hechtel) writes:
>In article <8ajklb...@netcom.com> ri...@netcom.com (Richard Poppen) writes:
>>Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth seems questionable at best
>>anyway. Are there other countries that consider their flags sacred the
>>way most Americans do? (If you think "sacred" is too strong, remember
>>that the flag-burning uproar was almost entirely phrased in terms of
>>"desecration".)

>I think there are a lot of countries who consider their flags a whole
>lot more sacred. For all the political crap surrounding the flag-burning
>issue these last few years, Americans _are_ free to display their
>country's flag if they wish (OK, there are some decorum restrictions).
>But in many countries, only the gov't can display the flag; citizens
>can't. (c.f. a National Geographic article about Poland? Czeckoslovakia?
>a few years back.)

Robert Anton Wilsons classic flag rap, is that most mammals mark the
boundarys of their territory with excrement, and that humans mark theirs
symbolicly, so therefore the flag is in at least one sense, symbolic
excrement. Some people, think that the symbol, and that which is symbolised
( the territory ) are one. In the past this has been a common thread amongst
strong alpha-male social structures.
Make no mistake, to people who believe that the *map IS THE territory*,
defiling the flag *IS* symbolic with defiling the land. the two aspects
of symbolism cancel each other out, and what they are left with is the
distinct feeling of being personally attacked.

Its the same reason people rally around kings, in ape primates the *king*
often uses his excrement as a marking scent to identify and show dominance
towards underlings.

So when Some one says your flag ain't shit, you can proudly tell 'em
it is so....


LUX .. owen

>
>Leslie
> (who also should be working, and who's definitely not going to run
>up to my office and dig around old NG's looking for the reference)
>
>--
>Leslie M. Hechtel
>Dept. of Meteorology
>1225 W. Dayton St.
>Madison WI 53706 Internet:hec...@meteor.wisc.edu


--
-=- very happy to be queer -=- -+- right here -+- -*- NOW -*-

*No matter where you go, there you are.*

Bob Donahue

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May 11, 1992, 1:20:58 PM5/11/92
to
Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>Bob Donahue writes:
>>>Another thing that pisses me off is that if all the winners were
>>>*MY* type -- furry, bearded Daddy Bears -- people would have been
>>>screaming "*FIX!*" at the top of their lungs years ago.
>>While I agree it is nice to see some variety, the thing is
>>that the "leather" icon is and will prob. always be the "Tom of Finland"
>>look: Teutonic, cop sort of thing, despite how hot furry, bearded
>>Daddy Bears look in leather.

>Ah, but the winners of the Mr. Drummer contest -- very similar
>concept, IMHO -- have been over 50% bearded, and all the rest
>(I believe) moustached....

So? Apples and Oranges. You were complaining about the
IML cxontest specifically, and not leather contests in general.
Both of our points are still valid insofar as the IML contest goes.

>>I think it's a case of your Mr. International
>>Leather icon not matching what others' are.

>But that's not really the point, as I see it. This is supposed
>to be (is presented in the gay media as) an annual search for
>"the hottest leatherman," **NOT** "the hottest leatherman of the
>Tom of Finland type."

"Supposed to be" are "are" are sometimes a universe apart.
If it helps, think og hte ToF requirement as being parenthetically
in extremely small type. Then, go out have a blast at the
Mr. Drummer contests and ignore the IML. You'll have more fun.

>"Leatherman" covers one *hell* of a lot of ground -- and while I
>concede you're probably not going to see a winner with a Bear
>Belly before there's skiing in Hades, the *INCREDIBLY* narrow
>focus of the IML farce is *insulting*. I see regional winners in
>_The Leather Journal_ with big smiles on their furry faces, and I
>*KNOW* beyond doubt that they haven't a chance to win. THAT is
>truly sad -- not that the contest is all that important, but I
>think it's just so UNFAIR to the contestants to have this hidden
>agenda.

Life is tough. So, deemphasize the IML, concentrate on
the things you feel are worth concentrating on, and encourage others
to do the same. It's about all you can constructively do.

>As I said before, if they stated that they were looking for a
>specific type, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's this
>joke that it's the best leatherman of all that wins that pisses
>me off.

Well, like I said - it seems obvious that they *are* looking for
a speicifc type, even if they're not blantantly mentioning this (which
stands to reason since they might lose some support if they did). If
you are able to see the Emperor has no clothes and that bothers you,
find a new Emperor.


BBC

Joseph Francis

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May 11, 1992, 2:45:13 PM5/11/92
to
In article <1992May11.1...@spdcc.com> rdon...@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
>Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>>Bob Donahue writes:
>>>>Another thing that pisses me off is that if all the winners were
>>>>*MY* type -- furry, bearded Daddy Bears -- people would have been
>>>>screaming "*FIX!*" at the top of their lungs years ago.
>>>While I agree it is nice to see some variety, the thing is
>>>that the "leather" icon is and will prob. always be the "Tom of Finland"
>>>look: Teutonic, cop sort of thing, despite how hot furry, bearded
>>>Daddy Bears look in leather.

What I find funny in all of this is that the contest isn't supposed to
be about just "look" but about personality, comportment, "philosophy";
I imagine a character from Dicken's "Bleak House" struggling over
comportment... A bearded leatherdaddy isn't going to win IMF if he is
jovial, no matter if he looks like Zeus with an 18" bullwhip and a
cock like a firehydrant. However, then there were types like Val
Martin. Tom of Finland, BTW, had beards in his work as far back as the
60's; but the "type" was never specifically "bear".

Obliquely, also, leather tends to include an idea of asceticism,
denial, something spartan, which is often at odds with 'bear', and
could be thought of as an antithesis: earthiness, indulgence, the
baroque. The depersonal: shaved, oiled, wrapped, bound, marked,
machinelike, propertylike leatherman (of both top and bottom flavors);
the personalized (what is more idiosyncratic than hair patterns),
unbound, animal-like, wildish, bear-man. I don't think a synthesis can
occur in a contest which promotes the former ideology to the exclusion
of all.

>>"Leatherman" covers one *hell* of a lot of ground -- and while I

That is the crux of the misunderstanding. "Leatherman" is a very
specific, controlled fetish. A better way to think about it is: can
you imagine a big bear daddy being a fascist?
--
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.

Rod Williams

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May 12, 1992, 12:47:52 PM5/12/92
to
Nobody has elaborated on the addition of "under god", in 1952,
to the Pledge of Allegiance. If I remember correctly, this
was done in response to a public clamor, led by Danny Thomas,
Marlo's daddy, Mr. Coffee. I'm sure it was all a panicky
response to the godless commies overrunning Korea, Hollywood
and the State Department, not to mention those awful homos... |-O
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjw...@pacbell.com

Kelley Miller

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May 12, 1992, 2:12:36 PM5/12/92
to

Rod....

I hate to call you on your previous remark, but Danny Thomas was
not Mr. Coffee.....Joe Dimaggio was..... :-)

--
Cheers! / The opinions expressed above are not necessarily
the KelleyMan /those of the staff or management of the mind which
Kelley L. Miller /from which they came. (and frankly, it would suprise
ae...@yfn.ysu.edu/the living bejezus out of them if they were aware of it!)

John Fisher

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May 11, 1992, 10:53:03 AM5/11/92
to
In article <mrs...@vadier.gr.osf.org>,
emcm...@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:

> I asked if someone could mail me the unparodied words of the US Pledge
> of Allegiance that is inflicted on schoolchildren. Jess Anderson
> kindly obliged, so for the benefit of other non-USans:
>

> [...]


> I pledge allegiance to the flag
> of the United States of America,
> and to the republic for which it stands,
> one nation, under God, indivisible,
> with liberty and justice for all.
>
> The words "under God" were added in 1952. I don't know when
> the rest came to be. Part of the cabal ritual is to place
> one's right hand over one's heart whilst reciting this crap.

It's interesting to compare that to the equivalent UK
incantation, which known as the Oath of Allegiance:

I, <name>, swear by almighty God that I will be faithful
and bear true allegiance to our sovereign lady Queen
Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law.

...which tells you one or two things about the differences
between the two states.

On the other hand, the Oath is really only used in
exceptional circumstances, such as becoming a Member of
Parliament. I have never had to do it. I only know it
because a friend was naturalised the other day and had to
recite it in front of a lawyer. Most Brits feel a distinct
crawling in the scalp at the idea of rows of kids swearing
allegiance.

--John

Mark

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May 12, 1992, 6:08:51 PM5/12/92
to
In article <2a0e...@ThreeL.co.uk>,
j...@threel.co.uk (John Fisher) writes:

{American "Pledge of allegiance" crap}

>It's interesting to compare that to the equivalent UK
>incantation, which known as the Oath of Allegiance:
>
> I, <name>, swear by almighty God that I will be faithful
> and bear true allegiance to our sovereign lady Queen
> Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law.
>
>...which tells you one or two things about the differences
>between the two states.
>

> Most Brits feel a distinct
>crawling in the scalp at the idea of rows of kids swearing
>allegiance.

That's okay; the kids don't have any idea what
it means, anyway...

Henry Mensch

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May 14, 1992, 3:04:42 PM5/14/92
to
ri...@netcom.com (Richard Poppen) wrote:
->Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth seems questionable at best
->anyway.

oh, go on. if catholics can pray to statues, americans can pledge
allegiance to a flag :)

-> ... Are there other countries that consider their flags sacred the
->way most Americans do?

yes.

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc. / <he...@ads.com>

Henry Mensch

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May 14, 1992, 3:10:00 PM5/14/92
to
AH....@forsythe.stanford.edu (Mark) wrote:
->
-> That's okay; the kids don't have any idea what
-> it means, anyway...

... which brings us back to the "life in hell" parody ... many
children make up the words as they go along; as long as it sounds
good, nobody notices.

Ailsa N.T. Murphy

unread,
May 15, 1992, 2:09:22 PM5/15/92
to
hey, give me an ever-loving break here! what do you mean,
"most kids don't know what it means"?? kids aren't STUPID,
you know. i knew quite well what it meant by, i think, third
grade, when i sat down and thought about it and figured it out.
later, it was explained to us what it meant. i remember finding
it a little silly when i realized what i was doing. i wish there
was some way that katy wouldn't haev to do it without branding
her and me as godless commie traitors... also, most kids DON'T
make up the words as they go along, only the ones bucking for
the reputation of class smartass...

-ailsa

Jess Anderson

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May 16, 1992, 6:38:57 AM5/16/92
to

In article <92136.140...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>

IO8...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

>hey, give me an ever-loving break here! what do you mean,
>"most kids don't know what it means"?? kids aren't STUPID,
>you know.

But they're not very experienced.

>also, most kids DON'T
>make up the words as they go along, only the ones bucking for
>the reputation of class smartass...

Ah, that explains it. But I didn't have to buck, I had
natural talent! :-)

--
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: ande...@yak.macc.wisc.edu Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888

Kathy Beatty

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May 16, 1992, 11:40:55 AM5/16/92
to
Before saw the pledge in print (2nd grade, maybe?), I thought I was
*plegiallegencing* whatever that was. When I finally found out that
I was really pledging allegiance, I had an inkling, later refined by
analytical thinking, of what bullshit the whole think really was.


Kathy

Cindy Tittle Moore

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May 16, 1992, 2:14:23 PM5/16/92
to
In <1992May14.1...@ads.com> he...@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:

>ri...@netcom.com (Richard Poppen) wrote:
>->Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth seems questionable at best
>->anyway.

>oh, go on. if catholics can pray to statues, americans can pledge
>allegiance to a flag :)

>-> ... Are there other countries that consider their flags sacred the
>->way most Americans do?

>yes.

But, of course, not all. Which brings me to mind of a little story,
probably apocryphal, and told to *me* in a tone of semi-horror:

There are these two americans and a british fellow, all veterans of
WWII, chugging along in the fellow's car. The car breaks down and he
needs a piece of cloth to hold something together. Without further
ado, he takes out his union jack, rips a piece off of it, and proceeds
with his repairs. One of the americans says to him: "But, people have
*died* for that flag!" "Oh, not this one," he says, "It's brand new.
I picked it up at the store just last week."

I could truly wish for such a relaxed attitude from more americans...

--Cindy
--

* I would rather that a bigot thought I was a lesbian than that a
* lesbian thought I was a bigot. -- Tovah Hollander

Cindy Tittle Moore

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May 16, 1992, 2:17:41 PM5/16/92
to
In <92136.140...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO8...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

>hey, give me an ever-loving break here! what do you mean,
>"most kids don't know what it means"?? kids aren't STUPID,
>you know. i knew quite well what it meant by, i think, third
>grade, when i sat down and thought about it and figured it out.
>later, it was explained to us what it meant. i remember finding
>it a little silly when i realized what i was doing. i wish there
>was some way that katy wouldn't haev to do it without branding
>her and me as godless commie traitors...

I remember it bothered me from about third or fourth grade. My
solution was to say, "One nation, indivisble, with liberty..."
I was most delighted to learn later that "under god" had been
added much later. In fact, I now have a little primer that
belonged to my grandmother that has the original version in it.

I like to play with some people's minds with that little book...
Surprising how many think it's been there from 1776...how
much we forget in a mere 40 years...

peggy boucher murphy (you had to ask?)

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May 16, 1992, 6:47:02 PM5/16/92
to
In article <92136.140...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO8...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>hey, give me an ever-loving break here! what do you mean,
>"most kids don't know what it means"?? kids aren't STUPID,
>you know. i knew quite well what it meant by, i think, third
>grade, when i sat down and thought about it and figured it out.
>later, it was explained to us what it meant.

or they ask. my kids asked me *exactly* what it
means, since i do not say it, stand for it, or
stand for the national anthem. i have told them
it is up to them whether they stand or not.

>i remember finding
>it a little silly when i realized what i was doing. i wish there
>was some way that katy wouldn't haev to do it without branding
>her and me as godless commie traitors... also, most kids DON'T
>make up the words as they go along, only the ones bucking for
>the reputation of class smartass...

hmmm...
in my daughter's class, her teacher periodically
announces that if you don't believe in this for
whatever (she occasionally mentions religion --
she refers to the pledge as very christian) reason,
then you don't have to. natalie says she stands and
says it *except* for the "under god" line. her
brother chooses to say the whole thing and not draw
attention to himself. the youngest, a very
irreverant child, doesn't say it and instead causes
trouble during it. sigh.

anyhow, my ex refuses to pledge or stand, either.
so this is the model that my kids ahve grown up with.

peg

Jeff Anderson

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May 17, 1992, 10:23:37 PM5/17/92
to

A member of our club (the Centurions of Columbus), Bob Donaldson, is a
contestent. He is hearing impared. Great guy. Interesting side note!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Anderson je...@sporty.col.oh.us j...@rsch.oclc.org
H: 614-252-7563 B7 f+ t w dc g+ k+ s- e r je...@sporty.UUCP
W: 614-764-6222 "You were traveling at over 80,000 k.p.h. only 10
meters from Cadet Albert, and you didn't even know his orientation?!!" -ST:TNG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

George Dalton Madison

unread,
May 18, 1992, 9:59:12 PM5/18/92
to
Jeff Anderson writes:

>Shawn Hicks writes:
>>An interesting side note about IML this year....
>>For the first time several of the candidates are deaf. I met a nice
>
>A member of our club (the Centurions of Columbus), Bob Donaldson, is a
>contestent. He is hearing impared. Great guy. Interesting side note!

Of course, if he's bearded or too furry, he hasn't a snowball's
chance of winning.

;-(


() Do you think the hurtin' is gonna go away
() If you leave uprisin' for another day?
() -- _Rise_, Alison Moyet
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> fu...@cup.portal.com <]

William Tsun-Yuk Hsu

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May 19, 1992, 11:47:34 PM5/19/92
to
Miscellaneous IML gossip...

Ok, now it looks like I'll definitely be in Chicago for IML weekend, but
will be skipping the contest itself. (There are, after all, fringe
benefits to being in Chicago the same weekend as IML.) A rumor is Joan Jett
Blakk, Queer Nation's presidential candidate, will be introducing the
contestants.

One definite rumor :-) I heard is Touche, Chicago's legendary leather bar
which had closed after moving to a new location, will be reopened in time for
IML. Of course since I don't think they've got their act together to
advertise properly, who knows how many people will know about it.

Holler if you're visiting and need directions to stuff, suggestions on where
to go, etc.

Bill

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