Scott Masden
Danny Ingram
Does anyone remember Scott Masden, the deliciously androgynous Soloflex
model who changed America's vision of the perfect male body and graced the
walls of gay apartments from NY to LA? I wonder why we haven't seen any more
of his curvasceous form in the advertising world? Marky Mark may be nice, be
he can't hold a well-sculpted candle to Scottie.
James P. Taylor
While I agree with the rest of the post and I sure do remember him
[..except he doesn't grace my walls -- sigh] why do you say he was
andorgynous? He weren't no bear, but ...
jim
Jess Anderson
>Another short respite from the CO2 war...
> Does anyone remember Scott Masden, [...]
>Marky Mark may be nice, be
>he can't hold a well-sculpted candle to Scottie.
Assuming that *is* Marky Mark in the Calvin Klein ad in this
month's GQ (and even if it isn't), he can hold his
well-sculpted whatevers against me anytime he'd like. Scott
says hi to all his fans, by the way.
--
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
<> <> <> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <> <> <>
Steven Greene
>
>Assuming that *is* Marky Mark in the Calvin Klein ad in this
>month's GQ (and even if it isn't), he can hold his
>well-sculpted whatevers against me anytime he'd like.
Yes, that is definitely Marky Mark. The NY Times had an article when
Calvin Klein signed Marky Mark to do his underwear ads. It was full
of wonderful double entendres, with Calvin Klein saying things like
he hired Marky Mark so he "could have him just how he wanted him."
I, for one, was amused.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Greene <gre...@choice.princeton.edu> NeXTMail welcomed
"Only people who die very young learn all they really need to know
in kindergarten."--Wendy Kaminer
Michael S Ritchie
his lovely poster book from some years ago.
Secondly, check out the *two* Marky mark ads right up front in
the latest Esquire (the one with Winona Ryder on the cover).
Keepers, fer sure!
Howard Solomon - SunExpress Support Engineer
>
>In article <74...@hydra.gatech.EDU>
>danny....@business.gatech.edu (Danny Ingram) writes:
>> Does anyone remember Scott Masden, [...]
[...]
>Scott says hi to all his fans, by the way.
>
>--
>Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Do I take this to mean you know him?
Howard
---
========================================================================
Howard I. Solomon |ELECTION '92
Software Support Engineer, SunExpress |Say goodnight, George.
h...@east.sun.com |
=========================================================================
Jess Anderson
In article <1dtq1g...@seven-up.East.Sun.COM>
h...@the-temple.East.Sun.COM writes:
>>Scott says hi to all his fans, by the way.
>Do I take this to mean you know him?
Probably, but I suppose you might take it otherwise.
--
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Donald Andrew Agarrat
mrit...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael S Ritchie) writes:
} Check out the *two* Marky mark ads right up front in
} the latest Esquire (the one with Winona Ryder on the cover).
} Keepers, fer sure!
You guys cease to amaze me ...
No one here knows a fucking thing about what Marky Mark thinks
of GLB issues. We're just content looking at his ripped
stomach. Give me a fucking break. Now if it is found out that
he has made derogatory comments about Gays in his "songs" (term
used sparingly), you all will look about as idiotic as a Gay
person at the last hallowed Republican Convention ...
Why do Gay men make it a point to focus on so many superficial
material things? Out of the people I know, I would say that
lesbians aren't caught up in it as much and are *much* more
mature and educated about GLB issues. I've never seen a lesbian
say "Damn, she has a good body" without adding either "but she's
a homophobe ..." or "and she's very Gay-positive! *smile*
*flirt*".
I would probably fit into the Gay community better as a lesbian.
Donald - It's time for some action!
Aeleck
>In article <1dtq1g...@seven-up.East.Sun.COM>
>h...@the-temple.East.Sun.COM writes:
>
>>>Scott says hi to all his fans, by the way.
>
>>Do I take this to mean you know him?
>
>Probably, but I suppose you might take it otherwise.
>
We're all dieing to know! Do ya?????????
Sitting impatiently,
Patrick /
/ / /
__ __ __/_ _ __ /
/ \ / \ / / \ / / \ / \ "If you're not having
/ / / / / / / / / /\_/ fun, you're doing some-
/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/ \__/\__/\___/ / \__/ thing wrong." -Patrick
/
/ Hate is not a family value. Boycott Colorado
Bil Gonzalez
> In article <1992Nov11.1...@macc.wisc.edu> ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> >
> >Assuming that *is* Marky Mark in the Calvin Klein ad in this
> >month's GQ (and even if it isn't), he can hold his
> >well-sculpted whatevers against me anytime he'd like.
>
> Yes, that is definitely Marky Mark. The NY Times had an article when
> Calvin Klein signed Marky Mark to do his underwear ads. It was full
> of wonderful double entendres, with Calvin Klein saying things like
> he hired Marky Mark so he "could have him just how he wanted him."
> I, for one, was amused.
I heard from an industry friend yesterday that Marky Mark will soon
have a book out that makes Madonna's SEX book look like a rewrite of
THE SOUND OF MUSIC. Is explores his kinky(?!) sexuality (I was told).
It is supposed to be VERY explicit. I'll post more as I learn more.
Bil Gonzalez
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Love is rare, Life is strange, Nothing lasts, People change"
-from OLD FRIEND
----------------------------------------------------------------------
abe...@enh.nist.gov
>You guys cease to amaze me ...
>
>No one here knows a fucking thing about what Marky Mark thinks
>of GLB issues.
There have been stories about him in the Advocate and on MTV. He
is very gay-supportive, has performed in gay bars, and is very
happy to allow the men in gay bars to rip his pants off just
like he allows women to do the same at non-gay venues.
Okay?
Sim Aberson Ft. Lauderdale, FL aberson%3328...@sdsc.edu
Hate, bigotry, and discrimination are not family values, even in
Colorado and Tampa.
bas...@watson.ibm.com
>You guys cease to amaze me ...
>
>No one here knows a fucking thing about what Marky Mark thinks
>of GLB issues. We're just content looking at his ripped
Actually, Marky Mark has made tons of pro-gay statements. He also
sings about safe-sex, and has the audience chant the word "safe-sex"
with him. He also is on the "Red Hot and Dance" video, which was a
big AIDS fundraiser.
Check out some interviews with him. You couldn't ask for a better (or
better-looking) role model.
Mat Baskin
Henry Mensch
->I heard from an industry friend yesterday that Marky Mark will soon
->have a book out that makes Madonna's SEX book look like a rewrite of
->THE SOUND OF MUSIC.
oh, so it'll be a superman comic?
madonna's book is, well, kinda pedestrian. the only curious bits
about it are its packaging and cover.
--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc. / <he...@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy." -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
# for information on the league for programming freedom,
# write to l...@uunet.uu.net
Matthew Melmon
bgo...@math.rutgers.edu (Bil Gonzalez) wrote:
> I heard from an industry friend yesterday that Marky Mark will soon
> have a book out that makes Madonna's SEX book look like a rewrite of
> THE SOUND OF MUSIC. Is explores his kinky(?!) sexuality (I was told).
> It is supposed to be VERY explicit. I'll post more as I learn more.
Well, at the very least I hope it has plenty of *full* *male* *nudity*
SEX, I'm afraid, lacks much of such (in addition to Jason Priestley...)
I think there are two peni in the whole thing. There is, however, a
very good butt shot, with a fine pair o' gonads hanging *way* down...
*X*
(also - while I like the cool, neat-o steel cover, the binding *is*
a bit of a pain... (ohhh, zee double-entendres))
Aeleck
>There have been stories about him in the Advocate and on MTV. He
>is very gay-supportive, has performed in gay bars, and is very
>happy to allow the men in gay bars to rip his pants off just
>like he allows women to do the same at non-gay venues.
REALLY! Ok, does anyone know when he'll be doing a show at a gay bar in
Indiana??? I have to reserve front row seats now! :)
George Dalton Madison
>I heard from an industry friend yesterday that Marky Mark will soon
>have a book out that makes Madonna's SEX book look like a rewrite of
>THE SOUND OF MUSIC. Is explores his kinky(?!) sexuality (I was told).
>It is supposed to be VERY explicit. I'll post more as I learn more.
Let's hope this is just a *really* bad joke -- like his "music".
Frankly, I think Madonna's far sexier than he is..... I guess
I'll have to call myself a Kinsey 5.9 now.
() I shot an arrow into the air and it stuck.
() -- graffito in Los Angeles
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> fu...@cup.portal.com <]
Matthew Melmon
wrote:
> >You guys cease to amaze me ...
> >
> >No one here knows a fucking thing about what Marky Mark thinks
> >of GLB issues. We're just content looking at his ripped
Somebody is projecting...
Moving on:
> Actually, Marky Mark has made tons of pro-gay statements. He also
> sings about safe-sex, and has the audience chant the word "safe-sex"
> with him. He also is on the "Red Hot and Dance" video, which was a
> big AIDS fundraiser.
And I do believe he was present at that *other* celebrity's AIDS
bash in Los Angeles, fashions courtesy Gaultier (sp? Damn. Where's
my Vogue... Tangent: Joan Rivers and this gossip-monger were
talking about Marky and Madonna - apparently the Blond Wonder
wants to add him to her stable (like she probably hasn't already),
but is in competition with Shannon Doherty (Luke Perry's co-star).
Competition <snort> Yeah, right...)
> Check out some interviews with him. You couldn't ask for a better (or
> better-looking) role model.
Actually, he's got kind of an ugly mug (he's no Jason Priestley - not
that I know Jason Priestley...). But he [Marky] *does* have a
wonderful bod... Of course, why else would he be in a Calvin
add? (though Calvin always struck me as a damn pedophile... Do
you remember that Eternity add, with the little boy with pouted
lips asleep on some model's chest? Father/Son? Yeah, right...)
*X*
Paul Ryan
>In article <1992Nov12.0...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>mrit...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael S Ritchie) writes:
>} Check out the *two* Marky mark ads right up front in
>} the latest Esquire (the one with Winona Ryder on the cover).
>} Keepers, fer sure!
>You guys cease to amaze me ...
>No one here knows a fucking thing about what Marky Mark thinks
>of GLB issues.
Actually, we do. It was reported on soc.motss a while ago that some gay
fans showed up at a video shooting. They characterized his response
to their interest as het, but friendly, accepting, complimented and not
at all phobic.
--
Paul Ryan (p...@crhc.uiuc.edu) 1308 West Main St.
Center for Reliable High-Performance Computing Urbana, IL 61801
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (217) 244-7179
BEEZER
>Why do Gay men make it a point to focus on so many superficial
>material things? Out of the people I know, I would say that
>lesbians aren't caught up in it as much and are *much* more
>mature and educated about GLB issues. I've never seen a lesbian
>say "Damn, she has a good body" without adding either "but she's
>a homophobe ..." or "and she's very Gay-positive! *smile*
>*flirt*".
Uh-oh, political correctness strikes again!
Sorry, Donald - but I have a life, and I enjoy a man grabbing
a fist full of his crotch (or mine) in erotic expression.
If Mark has said anything homophobic, and I don't now about it
yet - then I'm not going to worry about it much until it's
a real affector. And if/when I do find some such out, I won't
feel much the fool either... I can't know ALL things, just
take appropriate action and make better choices after the fact.
In the mean time, I'd like to indulge (for the first time in
public forum) in saying that those ads gave me a pleasant tingle...
Tim Fogarty
In article <BxMJB...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, p...@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Aeleck) writes:
^^^^^^
hey, Im a Purdue graduate too.
|>
|>In article <12NOV92....@enh.nist.gov> abe...@enh.nist.gov writes:
|>>There have been stories about him in the Advocate and on MTV. He
|>>is very gay-supportive, has performed in gay bars, and is very
|>>happy to allow the men in gay bars to rip his pants off just
|>>like he allows women to do the same at non-gay venues.
|>
|>REALLY! Ok, does anyone know when he'll be doing a show at a gay bar in
|>Indiana??? I have to reserve front row seats now! :)
|>
|>Patrick
Well, during the first half of this year, MM was seen regularly at
Gold's Gym Hollywood, who's clientel is mostly gay. (well, the same can
be said of Gold's Venice)
He was polite, but kept to himself. And he was _very_ juiced up.
Also regularly seen at Golds Hollywood: Jeff Goldbloom, Jody Foster, Fred
Savage, his TV brother (?), Fabio (dont ask), some heavy metal musician that
I would never recognize, and lots of gay porn "actors". (Once I counted
8 on the floor at once, mostly from Zeus and Falcon.)
And I once ran into Scott Madsen, a few year after the Soloflex ads. He looked
quite average. Either the fast life was getting to him, or he had spent
weeks and months dieting and exercising to get ready for the ads.
Most models that I know, like bodybuilders, need to time their training
so that they peak on or near the day of their photo shoot.
--
Tim Fogarty
Sys Man and Sys Admin for the EGSE in the POCC at JSC for SRL-1, STS-59
FOG...@SIR-C.JPL.NASA.GOV
Michael A. Thomas
> You guys cease to amaze me ...
You mean, we're not amuzing you any more? <Pout>
> No one here knows a fucking thing about what Marky Mark thinks
> of GLB issues. We're just content looking at his ripped
> stomach.
Yes.
> Give me a fucking break. Now if it is found out that
> he has made derogatory comments about Gays in his "songs" (term
> used sparingly), you all will look about as idiotic as a Gay
> person at the last hallowed Republican Convention ...
But a good body transcends little trivialities like political
affiliation and other non-essentials like that. How else do
you think republicans and democrats intermarry? Shirley you
don't think its intellecutal armistice do you?
> Why do Gay men make it a point to focus on so many superficial
> material things?
Because men are pigs. Sex crazed pigs, that is.
> I would probably fit into the Gay community better as a lesbian.
Stick to the program son, and you'll see the troff too.
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@gordian.com)
"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."
-- Hobbes to Calvin
USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca, 92707-5637
PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Max J. Rochlin
>madonna's book is, well, kinda pedestrian. the only curious bits
>about it are its packaging and cover.
I agree. I also think the packaging is aweful. Wire bound (note)books
have never held up for me. In San Francisco, when you tire of the book
you also have to go thru the extra effort of tearing out the pages so that
the cover and the contents go in the separate recycle bins.
...Max
--
+-----------------------------------------+
| m...@queernet.org | Max J. Rochlin |
+-----------------------------------------+
Donald Andrew Agarrat
} [Marky Mark] is very happy to allow the men in gay bars to rip
} his pants off just like he allows women to do the same at
} non-gay venues.
}
} Okay?
*gasp* No!
Donald
Mike Reaser
>Also regularly seen at Golds Hollywood: Jeff Goldbloom, Jody Foster, Fred
>Savage, his TV brother (?), Fabio (dont ask), some heavy metal musician that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I would never recognize, and lots of gay porn "actors". (Once I counted
>8 on the floor at once, mostly from Zeus and Falcon.)
The TV brother is Jason Hervey, who I saw at a few 'family bars' around
Atlanta when he was in town last year filming a (TV?) movie.
He was always in the company of several other males and females, so it
was _really_ unclear whether they just wanted to dance (because the music
in the straight bars here _SUCKS_) or if they were doing a little window
shopping.
--
=======================================================================
Mike Reaser, Hewlett-Packard N. Amer. Response Center - Atlanta
Internet: m...@hpuerca.atl.hp.com
NBCS: B4 f w g+ k s- I barely speak for myself, so
#include <standard.disclaimer> don't make me speak for HP
=======================================================================
Bob Donahue
>madonna's book is, well, kinda pedestrian. the only curious bits
>about it are its packaging and cover.
Funny, you can say that to describe the book or Madonna herself.
And who the $#%)(%$ is "Marky MArk" other than
some guy who was in the paper the other day being arrested?
(I think assault...)
I suppose he is 1992's Shaun Cassidy/Bobby Sherman/John Travolta/etc.?
BBC
(theonly trends I like are in data)
David Stevenson
>
>madonna's book is, well, kinda pedestrian. the only curious bits
>about it are its packaging and cover.
>
until the book was actually opened was rather ingenuous.
Jess Anderson
In article <1992Nov12....@wam.umd.edu>
lov...@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) fulminates
against common frivolities:
>In article <1992Nov12.0...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>mrit...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael S Ritchie) writes:
>>Check out the *two* Marky mark ads right up front in the
>>latest Esquire (the one with Winona Ryder on the cover).
>>Keepers, fer sure!
>No one here knows a fucking thing about what Marky Mark
>thinks of GLB issues. We're just content looking at his
>ripped stomach. Give me a fucking break. Now if it is
>found out that he has made derogatory comments about Gays in
>his "songs" (term used sparingly), you all will look about
>as idiotic as a Gay person at the last hallowed Republican
>Convention ...
Thanks to somebody, we now have it from the horse's mouth
(albeit curious of idiom) that probably we needn't worry
overmuch about that prospect. We may still look idiotic for
a wide variety of other reasons, of course.
>Why do Gay men make it a point to focus on so many
>superficial material things?
I think you have to admit that many don't make it a point.
Either they don't focus (much) on superficial, material
things or they do it naturally, so to speak. Truth to
tell, your claim is arguably a class prejudice.
>Out of the people I know, I
>would say that lesbians aren't caught up in it as much and
>are *much* more mature and educated about GLB issues. I've
>never seen a lesbian say "Damn, she has a good body" without
>adding either "but she's a homophobe ..." or "and she's very
>Gay-positive! *smile* *flirt*".
If that's a prejudice too, it's one I tend to share, with
the proviso that some of the difference you observe may be a
man/woman difference as much (or more) than a gayman/lesbian
one.
>Donald - It's time for some action!
Yep.
John S. Bibb
> In article <1992Nov13.135349.11877@bsu-ucs>
> 01klca...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Kenton Campbell) writes:
[snip]
> I think this statement of yours proves my point on how most Gay
> men are nothing but dogs in heat.
>
> Donald - Nigger Stompin' African!
I thought that the phrase was "BITCH in heat" ;-)
P.S. Announcing the creation of several new Shar-Pei's a la Miss Maudine and Mr. Muttley.
BTW- this also violates ALABAMA's misconduct laws..... Details on January!
Terrance Heath
>In article <1992Nov13.135349.11877@bsu-ucs>
>01klca...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Kenton Campbell) writes:
>} ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY (if I remember correctly) quoted him
>} about how he appreciates his gay male fans as much as his
>} straight female ones.....
>}
>} Take a chill pill, Agarrat. He *is* hotter than molten lava,
>} after all. Sounds to me like you just need to get a piece
>} some time this century.
>
>Get the fuck out of here! Marky Mark is NOT ALL THAT! I can't
>believe you all are falling for this bullshit! I guess I
>shouldn't be surprised
Donald, dear, as much as I hate to have to disagree with you,
I have to in this case. The man is "all that", and then some, an I
don't care if he hasn't the talent of a tree sloth (or the
personality) for that matter. He's always nice to look at.
>.. and as far as me needing a piece.
>
>I think this statement of yours proves my point on how most Gay
>men are nothing but dogs in heat.
*ahem*
Woof-woof. Woof-Woof-Woof. Woof. WOOF!
--
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath
he...@athena.cs.uga.edu
Bob Donahue
>dy...@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) >writes:
>>ric...@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) >writes:
>>I think it's possible to read George's statement as being without any
>>racist intent, nor do I think that George has a racist hair on his
>>body. This what-his-name is simply a media creation exploiting a
>>legitimate art for by co-opting it for the white masses, or in other
>>words, doing just what he used to do as a member of NKOTB.
>
>For the nth time, Marky Mark was never a member of NKOTB. In this
>month's issue of _The Face_ (a British periodical, but available
>in some parts of the US), he gives a revealing (pardon a *smirk*)
>interview about just these issues. Here are some snippets:
>"Marky Mark hasn't seen the Gap ads yet [nor have I...anyone?],
>but if he'd been near Hyde Park in London last August, he might
>have wondered why the biggest cheer on the Lesbian and Gay Pride
>march was for a passing double decker bus.
>"'That's dope, man! I particularly like pussy, but everybody's
Ooooh - so BUTCH - I wonder how womyn feel about this
categorization...
>got their sexual preference. A lot of deep people [rappers] don't
>feel it's God's will, but that doesn't bother me and people
>really do have the right to do what they want.
>And if they're
>into me, then cool, as long as they don't try to offend me and
>are into my music.
Translation - I support queers if they give my $$$. Oh, joy.
>I know a lot of gay people and I respect them,
>and you don't have to worry about getting stuck up by a gay dude.
>Yo, if you're gay you're in the house, just don't do that shit
>around me! Don't try to fuck me!...
THIS is *SUPPORT*?
>I respect people, everybody
>who's doing their own thing, as long as they're not harming
>anybody else doing it."
Yeah, right, Marky. BIG E_SWOON! Anything you say.
Someday, SOMEDAY we might grow up enough to choose
our idols with our heads instead of our balls. That will
make the choice doubly-sweet if said choice is also *HOT* by our
own "standards of objectifyable excellence".
BBC
"I think I'm gonna puke." --- Steve Dyer
Bob Donahue
Michael Lax
Come on, dears, let's not scratch each others eyes out over this guy.
Some of us think he's a hunk, others think he's white trash. Some of
us like his music, others do not. Personally, that's what I thought
part of the fascination with music was - each person determining what
they liked and didn't like. Same goes for what you find sexually
attractive.
One thing I think needs clarifying: was MM ever actually a member
of NKOB? I was under the impression he was not.
George Dalton Madison
>277...@apple.apple.COM> ric...@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) writes:
>ric...@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) writes:
>>>Well, not quite. He's an ugly white boy who thinks he's black and
>>>does rap music to prove it..... *UGH*.
>>I find your statement above to be fairly racist and worthy of calling to
>>your attention. Surely you did not mean it to sound as it reads?
>
>I think it's possible to read George's statement as being without any
>racist intent, nor do I think that George has a racist hair on his
>body. This what-his-name is simply a media creation exploiting a
>legitimate art for by co-opting it for the white masses, or in other
>isn't he treated with the same dismissiveness as Vanilla Ice was? I
Nail.
Head.
Bang!
>>On the other hand, considering how anti-anything-but-bears you've
>>established yourself to be, perhaps you mean what you wrote in a
>>most offensive way. I'll hope not and look for a clarification.
>
>Given the collective drooling we've had to put up with over this guy,
>I think George's comments were quite apt and timely.
Thank you. I find it interesting that when the Bears are
discussing what they find attractive in this forum, we get the
cries of "Oh no, all that Bear crap again!" But when it's an
ugly little fuck like "Marky Mark" being drooled over, HEAVEN
FORFEND that anyone should disagree in a similarly sharp fashion.
Now, I imagine someone's about to pounce on me for calling
"Marky Mark" an "ugly little fuck." Well, even those who do
drool over him have admitted his face isn't much to look at, and
to *ME*, the face (most preferably with a beard or other
significant facial hair, if it's a male) is the first thing I
notice, and probably the most important factor in physical
attraction for me. I'm not surprised he has such a ridiculous
moniker; to paraphrase a favorite Crotoni greeting, he had to
make up his own name 'cause he was too ugly for his parents to
claim. [c.f. ISAAC'S UNIVERSE Vol. 3, _Fighting Words_ by
Janet Kagan.]
() In order to make an apple pie from scratch, you must
() first create the universe.
() -- Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Matthew Melmon
(Jess Anderson) wrote:
> Whatever happened to Vanilla Ice, btw? Has he completely
> melted (not a moment too soon, in my estimation)?
Well, having been in error over Marky's affiliation with the New
Kids, I must say I *believe* that you will find Vanilla Ice captured
photographic-like in SEX... Though all you will see is a little of
his buns, and a lot of Madonna's...
*X*
Roger Phillips
'"I particularly like pussy, but everyone's got their
sexual preference. A lot of deep people [rappers] don't
feel it's God's will, but that doesn't bother me and
people really do have the right to do what they want.
And if they're into me, then cool, as long as they don't
try to offend me and are into my music.
(Got that? You may lust after him as long as you like the music.)
'"I know a lot of gay people and I respect them, and you
don't have to worry about getting stuck up by a gay dude.
(What does he mean by "stuck up"?)
'"Yo, if you're gay you're in the house, just don't do
that shit around me! Don't try to fuck me! Bring your
sister though, you can watch. I respect people,
everybody who's doing their own thing, as long as they're
not harming anybody else by doing it."
(The Face's John Godfrey continues:)
'Now clasping his dick so tight the veins on his arms are
sticking out like pipe cleaners, he answers without
hesitation and with genuine warmth. The fact that Marky
Mark is not homophobic shouldn't come as a surprise, but
it does. Hip hop culture is not noted for its concern
for lesbians and gays, and make no mistake, Marky Mark
_is_ a rapper. It's just that the only people who pay
him "props" [proper respect] are other rappers. To
everybody else he is a pop icon, fashion icon and now gay
icon.'
(So there you go.)
--
Roger Phillips ro...@quantime.co.uk
"*duckshove* (Austr. and N.Z., coll.) to jump a queue (orig. of
taxi-drivers): to cheat: to steal: to avoid responsibilities"
-- Chambers English Dictionary (1988)
Roger Phillips
ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> What *I* want to know, speaking of Van Dykes, is whether
> there is -- oh, I do hope there is -- a lesbian-owned and
> operated trucking company called Van Dykes.
The lesbian removal company
which moved us into this current flat
was called Sister George.
(Sadly, I hear they've gone out of business since.)
--
Roger Phillips ro...@quantime.co.uk
"*conche* v.t. to knead and mix (chocolate) during manufacture"
Roger Phillips
om...@midway.uchicago.edu quotes from the same "Face" interview I did
[I blame rn: it doesn't seem to find
all the articles in a thread on the first go]:
> "Marky Mark hasn't seen the Gap ads yet [nor have I...anyone?],
> but if he'd been near Hyde Park in London last August, he might
> have wondered why the biggest cheer on the Lesbian and Gay Pride
> march was for a passing double decker bus.
The Face is really so in touch, isn't it.
--
Roger Phillips ro...@quantime.co.uk
"*holoptic* having the eyes meeting in front"
Nelson Minar
>I find it interesting that when the Bears are discussing what they
>find attractive in this forum, we get the cries of "Oh no, all that
>Bear crap again!"
Could someone provide me with a recent example of this, like say a
direct quote or a reference to an article I'm likely to remember? I
don't doubt there are anti-bear forces, but I honestly can't recall an
instance of anti-bear whiners on motss. I'm getting to the point of
successfully reading motss with a rose-coloured bias on my CRT,
though, so maybe I've missed something. At any rate, I'm curious.
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ What in this room is alive and what doesn't have life?
Nelson Minar
(Roger Phillips) writes, quoting "Face":
>Marky Mark _is_ a rapper ... he is a pop icon, fashion icon and now
>gay icon.'
Just like Marlene Dietrich!
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ This is the time, and this is the record of the time
Ronald Hayden
Well, not quite. He's an ugly white boy who thinks he's black and
does rap music to prove it..... *UGH*.
I haven't heard much of his music, but I thought the song about the
Boston guy who murdered his wife (mixed with some other true stories)
was damn good. Video too.
--
- Ronald Hayden
----------------------------------------------------------------
| Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group |
| Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
| Writer, magician, and various other things |
----------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Thomas
[]
You know, the only person in this forum that I can think of who
consistantly, repetitively, and boorisly whines about people other
than His Type is GDM. It's really quite boring, and probably indicative
of some sort of insecurity.
Feh.
The Great Gazoo
{Hope I haven't assigned quotes to the wrong people!}
> >"Marky Mark hasn't seen the Gap ads yet [nor have I...anyone?],
> >but if he'd been near Hyde Park in London last August, he might
> >have wondered why the biggest cheer on the Lesbian and Gay Pride
> >march was for a passing double decker bus.
>
> >"'That's dope, man! I particularly like pussy, but everybody's
>
> Ooooh - so BUTCH - I wonder how womyn feel about this
> categorization...
>
> >got their sexual preference. A lot of deep people [rappers] don't
> >feel it's God's will, but that doesn't bother me and people
> >really do have the right to do what they want.
>
> >And if they're
> >into me, then cool, as long as they don't try to offend me and
> >are into my music.
>
> Translation - I support queers if they give my $$$. Oh, joy.
Not exactly... I interpret this as his wanting to be taken seriously as an
_artist_, not just as a body.
> >I know a lot of gay people and I respect them,
> >and you don't have to worry about getting stuck up by a gay dude.
> >Yo, if you're gay you're in the house, just don't do that shit
> >around me! Don't try to fuck me!...
>
> THIS is *SUPPORT*?
"Don't try to fuck me" does not imply a lack of support; it only states
that such is not _his_ orientation.
~~__ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
\/ .\ Joe McCombs a / k / a mcc...@alleg.edu ______ __
/\__/ . o __ . . /o ) \/ /
. . \/ o\ Fish heads, fish heads, . \____)_/\_\
o . /\__/ Roly-poly fish heads, .
o . Fish heads, fish heads, .
o Eat them up, YUM! @ {||} @
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Michael A. Thomas
> In article <1992Nov15.1...@spdcc.com> rdon...@spdcc.com (Bob
> Donahue) writes:
> > >I know a lot of gay people and I respect them,
> > >and you don't have to worry about getting stuck up by a gay dude.
> > >Yo, if you're gay you're in the house, just don't do that shit
> > >around me! Don't try to fuck me!...
> >
> > THIS is *SUPPORT*?
>
> "Don't try to fuck me" does not imply a lack of support; it only states
> that such is not _his_ orientation.
After reading it about three times, I think you're probably
right. It is, however, incredibly crass though. I guess it
is just an artifact of being from Boston though. Right Bob? :-)
adolphson
> In article <1992Nov15....@quantime.co.uk> ro...@quantime.co.uk
> (Roger Phillips) writes, quoting "Face":
> >Marky Mark _is_ a rapper ... he is a pop icon, fashion icon and now
> >gay icon.'
>
> Just like Marlene Dietrich!
My ex called me yesterday from the Deep South where he now
resides to tell me how fabulous Stephen Bach's bio of Dietrich
is, and he read me page after page of very interesting stuff
that makes Madonna's cavortings look tame.
"Am I boring you, darling?"
Arne
Roger B.A. Klorese
(Michael Lax) writes:
|> Some of us think he's a hunk, others think he's white trash.
Some of us think he's both.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rog...@unpc.QueerNet.ORG {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
-- J. Foster
Steve Dyer
>direct quote or a reference to an article I'm likely to remember?
Well, it's occurred in the distant past, and some people have long
memories. Two people commenting on good looking bears constitutes an
annoying excess, three, an organized conspiracy. Add one to each of
these for twink slobbering, including this Mark dude.
--
Steve Dyer
dy...@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
John Dorrance
>Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>>Well, not quite. He's an ugly white boy who thinks he's black and
>>does rap music to prove it..... *UGH*.
>I find your statement above to be fairly racist and worthy of calling to
>your attention. Surely you did not mean it to sound as it reads?
>On the other hand, considering how anti-anything-but-bears you've
>established yourself to be, perhaps you mean what you wrote in a
>most offensive way. I'll hope not and look for a clarification.
Hear hear. I've been wondering to myself if George's hystronics
could be interpreted as sexist and racist; discussion?
--
John Dorrance * Sexyfunky Motherfuckerdiva * tha...@cwis.unomaha.edu
I bet if you threw that ass into the air
It'd turn into sunshine!
Melinda Shore
>>I find it interesting that when the Bears are discussing what they
>>find attractive in this forum, we get the cries of "Oh no, all that
>>Bear crap again!"
>Could someone provide me with a recent example of this, like say a
>direct quote or a reference to an article I'm likely to remember?
I can't think of anybody complaining about bear crap, but
there have certainly been cries of "Oh no, all that Furr
crap again!" Not the same thing at all, although it may
appear that way to George.
--
Hate is not a family value. Boycott Colorado
Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - sh...@tc.cornell.edu
Jess Anderson
In article <BxsBw...@queernet.org> rog...@QueerNet.ORG
(Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
>In article <1992Nov15.1...@wixer.cactus.org>,
>laz...@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:
>>Some of us think he's a hunk, others think he's white trash.
>Some of us think he's both.
Would either or both of you care to tell us what "white
trash" is? Other than racial (and possibly economic)
stereotyping, I mean.
Is it deep hip hop dope or something?
--
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Brett {Druid Queen} Manz
>Arne
There was a quotation that Mr. Bach mentioned in an interview I
saw of him in which Ms. Dietrich says (of Madonna and the comparisons
between them):
"I act vulgar. She *is vulgar."
I love it!
--
---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
My opinions are my own. | You can't be proud of who you are
The truth belongs to everyone. | if you're ashamed of what you are.
Civil Rights Are For Queers! | Cruise Men, Not Missiles! - anon
Bil Snodgrass
Just a little tid bit of information from the Oregonian, November 11, 1992;
"Marky Mark is being sued by a man who claims the singer-model kicked
him in the face repeatedly and broke his jaw.
In the lawsuit filed Monday in Suffolk Superior Court, Robert D. Crehan,
20, claimed that Mark kicked him while another man held him down Aug. 30....
....His lawyer, Craig Brown, denied Mark had any part in the attack
and alleged that the other man Derek, McCall, 20, was solely responsible.
According to the Boston Globe, Mark was accused twice this summer of
aggression, but no complaints were filed.
The newspaper said the disposition of a 1990 assault case against Mark
could not be learned Monday, but in 1988, he was ordered to serve three
months in jail for his role in two racial attacks against Vietnamese men
in Boston's Dorchester section, where he once lived."
Bil Snodgrass
Mike Hennahane
>In article <69...@cup.portal.com>, Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>[]
> You know, the only person in this forum that I can think of who
>consistantly, repetitively, and boorisly whines about people other
>than His Type is GDM. It's really quite boring, and probably indicative
>of some sort of insecurity.
> Feh.
oh no. now you've done it. you have let the big soc.motss anti-bear
conspiracy out of the bag by criticising george. i'm sure we'll hear
all about it now from him, though...
--mike
Mike Hennahane
>In article <1992Nov16.0...@reed.edu> nel...@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>> Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes: [...]
>>Could someone provide me with a recent example of this, like say a
>>direct quote or a reference to an article I'm likely to remember?
>I can't think of anybody complaining about bear crap, but
>there have certainly been cries of "Oh no, all that Furr
>crap again!" Not the same thing at all, although it may
>appear that way to George.
thanks, melinda. you have crystalized my thoughts exactly.
--mike
Stephen Arrants
>our idols with our heads instead of our balls. That will
>make the choice doubly-sweet if said choice is also *HOT* by our
>own "standards of objectifyable excellence".
>
Oh c'mon, Bob. There's a difference between an idol and an object of lust.
Objects of lust are allowed a little more leeway. If Mr. Marky Mark was
exactly the same person yet had lots of body hair, a beard, and fit the "bear"
image, I'm sure you're comment would be much more muted. Methinks thou doth
protest too much.
John Dorrance
>Steve Dyer writes:
>>body. This what-his-name is simply a media creation exploiting a
>>legitimate art for by co-opting it for the white masses, or in other
>>words, doing just what he used to do as a member of NKOTB. I mean, why
>>isn't he treated with the same dismissiveness as Vanilla Ice was? I
This is disturbing. Is 'White rapper' an oxymoron? (and NKOTB
was hardly 'exploiting a black art' anyway, unless the boundaries
for 'black territory' encompassed a lot more than I'd thought...)
>Nail. Head. Bang!
Tired, tired, tired...
>>>On the other hand, considering how anti-anything-but-bears you've
>>>established yourself to be, perhaps you mean what you wrote in a
>>>most offensive way. I'll hope not and look for a clarification.
>>
>>Given the collective drooling we've had to put up with over this guy,
>>I think George's comments were quite apt and timely.
How often do people other than George flame other people for talking
about aesthetics?
>Thank you. I find it interesting that when the Bears are
>discussing what they find attractive in this forum, we get the
>cries of "Oh no, all that Bear crap again!" But when it's an
>ugly little fuck like "Marky Mark" being drooled over, HEAVEN
>FORFEND that anyone should disagree in a similarly sharp fashion.
Like Melinda said, it's more like 'Oh no, all that Furr crap again'.
And it's because of crap like this. You simply can't talk about
what you find attractive without telling people that they should be
ashamed of themselves for liking anything other than your ideal. It's
sickening, and I really wish you would accept the fact that some
people have different tastes than you do and just shut the fuck up
and let people think the way they want to.
>Now, I imagine someone's about to pounce on me for calling
>"Marky Mark" an "ugly little fuck." Well, even those who do
>drool over him have admitted his face isn't much to look at, and
Why the negative spin on drooling?
>to *ME*, the face (most preferably with a beard or other
>significant facial hair, if it's a male) is the first thing I
>notice, and probably the most important factor in physical
>attraction for me.
But to hear you talk, if he wasn't positively matted with fur he
might as well look like the elephant man, and you'd never be able
to love him. Sad.
>I'm not surprised he has such a ridiculous
>moniker; to paraphrase a favorite Crotoni greeting, he had to
>make up his own name 'cause he was too ugly for his parents to
>claim.
'Zat so, FURR?
John, who thought Marky Mark was a poor choice for the ads (he
*does* have a really bad face for modeling), but still he's not
half as bad as Hammer...
John Dorrance
>Whatever happened to Vanilla Ice, btw? Has he completely
>melted (not a moment too soon, in my estimation)?
He's in Madonna's book (Yay for that; he has a really nice body.
I just wish he'd get some real hair and release, maybe, a song
other than Ice Ice Baby).
Mark Morrissey
>In article <45...@ogicse.ogi.edu> ma...@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
>
>>I was at a total loss until I made a discovery which clarified it all:
>>I was running Kinsey UNIX version 6.
>
>Sheesh. Madonna will run under version 6 but only in a van Dyke. I
>thought everyone knew that.
Protocol encapsulation! How could I have been so stupid as to miss that.
Morrissey, you're slipping.
The paper may yet be saved!
hmmm. The encapsulation may prove tricky, however, as Kinsey UNIX
Version 6 has hard interfaces.
--mark
--
Mark Morrissey One Hatred to rule them all. One Hatred to find them.
ma...@cse.ogi.edu One Hatred to bring them all and in the darkness bind
them. In the land of Bigotry where the Shadows lie.
Bob Donahue
>>rdon...@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
>> > >I know a lot of gay people and I respect them,
>> > >and you don't have to worry about getting stuck up by a gay dude.
>> > >Yo, if you're gay you're in the house, just don't do that shit
>> > >around me! Don't try to fuck me!...
>> > THIS is *SUPPORT*?
>> "Don't try to fuck me" does not imply a lack of support; it only states
>> that such is not _his_ orientation.
> After reading it about three times, I think you're probably
>right. It is, however, incredibly crass though. I guess it
>is just an artifact of being from Boston though. Right Bob? :-)
Huh? Too many pronouns!
The beef I have is mostly with the 2nd to last clause,
"just don't do that shit around me"... which can imply open sexual
acts (which is absurd) and carries with it some kind of
"all gays just have sex with anything at the drop of a hat" or
"All fags want to fuck me" (free clue, hon we don't...) or implies
just openly homosexual social behavior which translates to the
"I support gays if they would just keep it to themselves and not
flaunt it" canard. It would have been easier had he been more explicit
as to what "that shit" meant, I doubt it was positive. Poor Mikey
probably didn't have time for English classes...
So which is it? Neither is very appealing nor supportive.
Finding someone *isn't* outwardly homophobic doesn't mean they are
"OK". Earlier in the interview he more or less makes it plain
that he likes the $$$ his homosexual fans give him... and that is
about it. Hey, fine by me - we all spend $$$ in frivolous ways,
and better him than say Axl Rose or Eddie Murphy...
Now I assume you mean that Marky is the crass party, so that
isn't too difficult.
Is he from Boston? (That's what I'm inferring...)
Well, you know how uptight those Bostonians are..... (or just
"tight"), right Mike? :-)
Cheers, BBC
BBC
Hot Young Star
ro...@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips) writes:
>In article <1992Nov14.1...@macc.wisc.edu>,
>ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>> What *I* want to know, speaking of Van Dykes, is whether
>> there is -- oh, I do hope there is -- a lesbian-owned and
>> operated trucking company called Van Dykes.
>The lesbian removal company which moved us into this current flat
>was called Sister George. (Sadly, I hear they've gone out of business since.)
My partner and I do business with a lesbian couple who repair VCRs for a
living. They have a mobile van-operated business in that they make house
calls to sick VCR's all around the metropolitan Boston area. Mark and I
affectionately call them the Van Dykes; indeed I know no other name for
them since it was Mark who dicsovered them and actually may even know
their official corporate name.
Me, I vote that they change it to Van Dykes!
They are fabulous in their electronic wizardry, and have resurrected many
a VCR whose owner had too hastily given it last rights. Very sociable, too.
They often stay for coffee, and have even invited us up to their house
on oh-so-desirable Plum Island!
(Any interested Boston-area folk can e-mail me---I'll try to get their
official name and 800 number)
Brian
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cra...@optilink.uucp (Clayton Cramer): Message-ID: <12...@optilink.UUCP>
I realize it's difficult for a person as depraved as [Brian Kane].
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,
Boston, MA 02215. True personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in
ones true self.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Bob Donahue
>>>On the other hand, considering how anti-anything-but-bears you've
>>>established yourself to be, perhaps you mean what you wrote in a
>>>most offensive way. I'll hope not and look for a clarification.
>Thank you. I find it interesting that when the Bears are
>discussing what they find attractive in this forum, we get the
>cries of "Oh no, all that Bear crap again!"
George, you forget, if the "b" word is *in* the posting, it
gets counted as a "ohnonotanotherbearposting".
In the last 4 1/2 years the %age of "bear-oriented" traffic
here has slowed to a crawl. Mostly it's been moved to the BML
(which has lots more traffic in the last year than the previous 3 combined
I'll bet).
The big umbrella only works as long as you can balance it
upside-down ont he tip of your finger. Eventually it starts to tip
and tilt in different directions.
BBC
Bob Donahue
>sh...@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>>nel...@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>>> Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes: [...]
>>>Could someone provide me with a recent example of this, like say a
>>>direct quote or a reference to an article I'm likely to remember?
I sent Nelson some examples.
>>I can't think of anybody complaining about bear crap, but
>>there have certainly been cries of "Oh no, all that Furr
>>crap again!" Not the same thing at all, although it may
>>appear that way to George.
I can - but because I'm one of the more vocal ones, I
suppse that invalidates it auto-magically. I can think of
two examples specifically that involve me: whenever
ANYone posts the NBCS to the net, I get hate mail from people
(and I mean pretty nasty stuff). When I was working on
the motss survey II, I had the gall to include NBCS as
a thing to fill in - this started a flame war on why this was
inappropriate for a "motss" thing since it made speicific refererence
to "the bears".
(BTW, this is why I halted work on the new database. I
have no desire to do something that is going to end up being a
vehicle for choosing sides... I might re-do it in 1993 post-thesis,
but I'm tired of getting hate mail because someone isn't interested
in the same things I am... the individual who raised the initial
complaint can blame himself for spoiling it for anyone else who was
interested in the final product...)
It does happen... not very vocally, I suppose because most
of the bears traffic has already been ghettoized to the BML. When I first
started posting here there was a LOT more "Bear oriented" traffic on
this group, even after the creation of the BML. In fact had someone
made the comment "'there's an awfully large bears presence here"
I would have agreed. But over time that has changed, and whlie some
people tend to overstate that point, it would be an error to say that
said presence has not decreased dramatically in the last 50+ months.
That doesn't bother me as much as one would think because
1) the BML *is* there, and 2) I look to motss for other things
than just "seeing bears on the net".
Soc.motss is still the most heterogeneous GBLO*_group I have
ever seen, but it's becoming more homogeneous over time. I don't
think it's in any danger of losing it, andI'm certinaly
not predicting the "death of the net" or "death of the group",
but before Mike et alia start patting themselves on the back for
"showing that this is the work of a few deranged people", there
is sufficient evidence to show that yes, indeed soc.motss has had
its share of "anti-bear" postings/threads.
Now is it a BIG THING? No, there are inclusivity issues
that greatly exceed the need to be more bear-sensitive. Certainly
seeing more womyn is one, minorities another. When was the last time
we heard anything aboutthe radical faeries here? Girth and Mirth?
Womyn's music fstivals? I'm especially concerned about the presence
of motss.womyn because the intial data from the aborted sample
above indicated that the %age of womyn DECREASED over the last 2.5 years
almost by 50%! To me that's alarming...
>thanks, melinda. you have crystalized my thoughts exactly.
Are you sure you want to use that word? I'm tempted to
agree but not gfor the same reasons you want.
(the word in question could be "crystalized" or"thoughts".
Take your pick.....)
BBC
aka Galileo-bear
John Dorrance
>He also has a penchant for dropping his trousers in public.
My lord, you're twisted. Would you be bitching about this if you
were attracted to him? Stop looking for reasons to be annoyed.
Gene W. Smith
>I was at a total loss until I made a discovery which clarified it all:
>I was running Kinsey UNIX version 6.
Sheesh. Madonna will run under version 6 but only in a van Dyke. I
thought everyone knew that.
--
Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University
gsm...@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
Matthew Melmon
{Druid Queen} Manz) wrote:
> "I act vulgar. She *is* vulgar."
Dolphie shared this deep insight with us once already. Do we really
want to go into this again? I'm more than willing to scoff some more
at Marlene Dietrich as present-day icon. Are you ready, Dolphie?
*X*
Stephen Arrants
>BBC inquires:
>> Funny, you can say that to describe the book or Madonna herself.
>>And who the $#%)(%$ is "Marky MArk" other than
>>some guy who was in the paper the other day being arrested?
>>(I think assault...)
>>
>> I suppose he is 1992's Shaun Cassidy/Bobby Sherman/John Travolta/etc.?
>
>Well, not quite. He's an ugly white boy who thinks he's black and
>does rap music to prove it..... *UGH*.
>
Yeah, so? You've done it at the Lone Star, George. Double-standard time?
Scott Minor
>In article <1e726d...@mizar.usc.edu>, adol...@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
>wrote:
>> "Am I boring you, darling?"
>You, of all people, should know that Dietrich couldn't manage much
>more than:
> "Am I bowing you, dawing?"
>As per Lilly Tomlins fabu spoof of "Babawa Wawa intewviewing Mawena
>Deetweek. How ah you, Mawena? ---Oh, I'm fine, thank you, Babawa"
>*X*
Ummm, pardon me, but I believe it was the devine Gilda Radner as Babawa
Wawa and guest star Madeleine Kahn (pardon the spelling) as Mawena
Deetweek. I pretty sure about this, but it's possible I'm mistaken.
Scott
-So I'm old enough to remeber the original cast of Saturday Night Live;
so sue me.-
adolphson
> ma...@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:
> >In article <1e726d...@mizar.usc.edu>,
> >adol...@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) wrote:
> >> "Am I boring you, darling?"
That, by the way, is apparently what Marlene would always
say to people who were shocked into speechlessness when
she recounted her sexual history to them.
[...]
> >As per Lilly Tomlins fabu spoof of "Babawa Wawa intewviewing Mawena
> >Deetweek. How ah you, Mawena? ---Oh, I'm fine, thank you, Babawa"
>
> Ummm, pardon me, but I believe it was the devine Gilda Radner as Babawa
> Wawa and guest star Madeleine Kahn (pardon the spelling) as Mawena
> Deetweek. I pretty sure about this, but it's possible I'm mistaken.
No, of course you're right. But then you should consider
the source -- he's someone who thinks that Mary Pickford was
a glamorous movie star in the Gloria Swanson/Pola Negri/Mae
Murray mold.
Arne
Henry Mensch
-> And who the $#%)(%$ is "Marky MArk" ...
marky mark's only redeeming quality is that he seems to have found
his penis.
--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc. / <he...@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy." -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
# for information on the league for programming freedom,
# write to l...@uunet.uu.net
Matthew Melmon
> "Am I boring you, darling?"
You, of all people, should know that Dietrich couldn't manage much
more than:
"Am I bowing you, dawing?"
As per Lilly Tomlins fabu spoof of "Babawa Wawa intewviewing Mawena
Deetweek. How ah you, Mawena? ---Oh, I'm fine, thank you, Babawa"
*X*
Michael A. Thomas
> Huh? Too many pronouns!
Well, it all made sense when I wrote it :-)
> The beef I have is mostly with the 2nd to last clause,
> "just don't do that shit around me"... which can imply open sexual
> acts (which is absurd) and carries with it some kind of
> "all gays just have sex with anything at the drop of a hat" or
> "All fags want to fuck me" (free clue, hon we don't...) or implies
> just openly homosexual social behavior which translates to the
> "I support gays if they would just keep it to themselves and not
> flaunt it" canard. It would have been easier had he been more explicit
> as to what "that shit" meant, I doubt it was positive.
I don't disagree with the sentiment you are finding in the words,
but there is probably more to it than that; don't you think? The
entire paragraph was rather crass and as such is undoubtably tied
to a "street talk" kind of mentality (anything which begins with "Yo!"
is what clues me in). Certainly this is a rather machoeque kind of
speech, but does it actually tell you much about the true attitude
about the person? I'm not as convinced.
> Poor Mikey probably didn't have time for English classes...
Well, neither did Marky, which is why this is not at all clear.
> So which is it? Neither is very appealing nor supportive.
I agree with this. The first time I read it I had your *exact*
same reaction. In fact, I mis-read the attribution originally, and
was about to send off a nasty followup until I finally noticed
where the attribution was coming from. After thinking a bit about
what little I know about street culture (which ain't much), I
decided that it is possible that it has more to do with *image*,
(whether it is real in his case or feigned, I haven't a clue)
rather than actual lack of support. Given the other positive
*actions* people have been attributing to him, I figured
he was worth the benefit of the doubt. Nothing more.
> Finding someone *isn't* outwardly homophobic doesn't mean they are
> "OK".
Well, I don't think that I said that.
> Is he from Boston? (That's what I'm inferring...)
> Well, you know how uptight those Bostonians are..... (or just
> "tight"), right Mike? :-)
Well, far be it for me to keep up with these teeny-bopper thangs,
but I seem to recall hearing that NKOTB are from Boston -- and by
extention Marky Mark too. Oh yes, I've had a few tight Bostonians;
it just that damn accent they need to lose. :-)
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@gordian.com)
"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."
-- Hobbes to Calvin
USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca, 92707-5637
PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Steve Dyer
>>>body. This what-his-name is simply a media creation exploiting a
>>>legitimate art for by co-opting it for the white masses, or in other
>>>words, doing just what he used to do as a member of NKOTB. I mean, why
>>>isn't he treated with the same dismissiveness as Vanilla Ice was? I
>
>This is disturbing. Is 'White rapper' an oxymoron?
Close to it. Let's just say that someone who pretends to be a rapper
and is white has a few more credentials to prove before being taken
seriously. This guy is just from the same hit engine as NKOTB (don't
give me this crap about being unaffiliated--he's the brother of one of
them, and I say that as someone born and bred in Dorchester, home of
Steve Dyer, Donna Summer, _New Edition_, Marky Mark and NKOTB.)
>(and NKOTB
>was hardly 'exploiting a black art' anyway, unless the boundaries
>for 'black territory' encompassed a lot more than I'd thought...)
Well, it's probably seems that way in Nebraska. NKOTB was simply
_New Edition_ in white face, and if you don't understand NKOTB's
black roots, you're not understanding their music and how it's a
miracle of co-option and assimilation. Of course, you don't have
to understand their music to like it: NKOTB was _much_ more lucrative
than New Edition ever was. QED.
>How often do people other than George flame other people for talking
>about aesthetics?
Perhaps as often as people other than Donald Agarrat talk about race
relations. You know, both can be pains in the asses, but they have a
point to make which gets lost in the assumptions of the majority.
(I don't mean to trivialize race relations in this comparison; it is
arguably more pressing and agonizing than an aesthetic of what turns
people on, I simply wish to use the analogy as a tool.)
>Like Melinda said, it's more like 'Oh no, all that Furr crap again'.
>And it's because of crap like this. You simply can't talk about
>what you find attractive without telling people that they should be
>ashamed of themselves for liking anything other than your ideal. It's
>sickening, and I really wish you would accept the fact that some
>people have different tastes than you do and just shut the fuck up
>and let people think the way they want to.
The "people have different tastes" claim is really a claim that
"all gay men have a single taste", which is really the taste of
Calvin Klein ads, 90210, Melanoma, bad plaster casts of Michel-
angelo's _David_ in the foyer, and millenia of young beardless
ephebes. In such a milieu of shared assumptions, and heavy with
the institutionalized taste of centuries, why shouldn't there be
a discordant note sounded from those who feel marginalized?
"Fine, if they'd only know when to shut up." Right. This should
sound familiar as well.
I am happy when everyone expresses an opinion, including when
people like George and BBC do as well. That's not to say that
inconsistencies shouldn't be pointed out (Steve Arrants's comments
on BBC's reaction to MM if he were bearded and covered with fur
is a case in point.)
Bob Donahue
>> Someday, SOMEDAY we might grow up enough to choose
>>our idols with our heads instead of our balls. That will
>>make the choice doubly-sweet if said choice is also *HOT* by our
>>own "standards of objectifyable excellence".
>>
>Oh c'mon, Bob. There's a difference between an idol and an object of lust.
Is there? I think that depends on the person.
>Objects of lust are allowed a little more leeway. If Mr. Marky Mark was
>exactly the same person yet had lots of body hair, a beard, and fit the "bear"
>image, I'm sure you're comment would be much more muted. Methinks thou doth
>protest too much.
I am *so* fucking sick of this argument. It makes the basic
assumption that deep down we're all as petty and shallow as the most
visible shallow person among us. What utter crap. While this might
be a reflection of how*you* think, Stephen, (for which I am utterly
surprised) it doesn't necessarily apply to me.
Sorry, you're barking up the wrong bear. Better luck next time.
For your collective edification, when confronted with the scenario above
my reaction tends to be "nice bear - too bad he's such an asshole".
aI can think of a few people where I work that fit this description - on
a purely physical level they might be very hot, but knowing them, and
not liking it makes it impossible for me to even think aboutoutside of those
terms.
Now of course it could be that some of the people I lust after
are in reality complete jerks, and I just don't know it yet. That in
fact has happened before on campus. I guess the overriding motto is:
there are plenty of bears in the sea why waste time on the assholes?
Put another way - it is interesting to see how much the people I have
respect for I think are attractive even if they don't spark lust in my heart.
The same goes the other way - almost all of the people I cna't stand I am
not attracted to - and some of them could be described as "bears".
Methinks you assume too much. How sad.
BBC
Graffiti 404-972-4999
>No one here knows a fucking thing about what Marky Mark thinks
>of GLB issues. We're just content looking at his ripped
>stomach.
i
Actually, Marky-Mark has said some very positive things about his gay
male fans, and has on more than one occasion given interviews in which
he has decried the fuss over sexual orientation. He has expressed a lot
of appreciation for his gay fans. I think he's pretty cool.
--
-Ric __ __ __
\/ r...@gnu.ai.mit.edu \/ Graffiti BBS 404 972-4999 \/
GEnie: GRAFFITI PO Box 3176, Lithonia GA 30058
Steve Dyer
>As per Lilly Tomlins fabu spoof of "Babawa Wawa intewviewing Mawena
>Deetweek. How ah you, Mawena? ---Oh, I'm fine, thank you, Babawa"
That was Gilda Radner, Mel, hon.
Scott Amspoker
>In article <1992Nov15.1...@spdcc.com> rdon...@spdcc.com (Bob
>Donahue) writes:
>
>Not exactly... I interpret this as his wanting to be taken seriously as an
>_artist_, not just as a body.
Hmmm. I'm left to wonder why he seems to display his body at every
opportunity. Maybe his gay audiences are taking their cues from him
and that caught him by surprise.
--
Scott Amspoker |
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM | Too bad ignorance isn't really
| bliss. Then it could be outlawed.
sc...@bbx.basis.com |
Bob Donahue
>> Poor Mikey probably didn't have time for English classes...
OUCH! I really REALLY had meant "Marky" there not "Mikey"
which could be interpreted as an unwarranted assault on Mr. Thomas!
My apologies!
> Well, neither did Marky, which is why this is not at all clear.
Um, ahem, yes...
>> Is he from Boston? (That's what I'm inferring...)
>> Well, you know how uptight those Bostonians are..... (or just
>> "tight"), right Mike? :-)
> Well, far be it for me to keep up with these teeny-bopper thangs,
>but I seem to recall hearing that NKOTB are from Boston -- and by
>extention Marky Mark too. Oh yes, I've had a few tight Bostonians;
>it just that damn accent they need to lose. :-)
Eeeek![tm]
I spent years getting rid of mine and
after being here for 18 months it's back...
Peetzer and beah anyone?
BBC
(the middle B is for Bayah, donchaknow)
J. N. Shaumeyer
Steve Dyer (dy...@spdcc.com) wrote:
> nel...@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>
> >Could someone provide me with a recent example of this, like say a
> >direct quote or a reference to an article I'm likely to remember?
>
> memories. Two people commenting on good looking bears constitutes an
> annoying excess, three, an organized conspiracy.
Distant past? Well, I'm not *that* e-old, and I
can remember at least one incident that was not
just Furr-bashing or Amiga animosity. But there's
no need to bring up old battles [since there are
so many current ones, and the conspiracy is bigger
than they think anyway].
Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to work Steve's
phrase 'persons of flamboyance' [which appeared in a
different context] into the conversation, but I'd hate
to see it just disappear.
--jns
Matthew Melmon
Minor) wrote:
> Ummm, pardon me, but I believe it was the devine Gilda Radner as Babawa
> Wawa and guest star Madeleine Kahn (pardon the spelling) as Mawena
> Deetweek. I pretty sure about this, but it's possible I'm mistaken.
Are you sure? Isn't Tomlin the one who did the operator (One wingy
dingy... Two wingy dingy...) I thought she was Babawa Wawa. But,
if not, I shall amend the statement:
As per Gilda Radner's fabu spoof...
*X*
(Who was Rosane, Rosanna Danna? I thought that was Gilda...)
Matthew Melmon
wrote:
> No, of course you're right. But then you should consider
> the source -- he's someone who thinks that Mary Pickford was
> a glamorous movie star in the Gloria Swanson/Pola Negri/Mae
> Murray mold.
Not precisely, Dolphie Doo - I asserted that Mary Pickford was
the basis of Norma Desmond. *You* put forth the rather bland,
rather dim, rather *unperceptive* thesis that Norma Desmond
was based on the 'glamorous' movie stars a la Swanson. I then
pointed out that Pickford was Hollywood gliterazi off-screen.
In fact, the difference between her screen and 'real' persona
is accented by Mizz Hepburn in her auto-biography (along with
affirming the status of an invitation to Pickfair as
'stellar...')
Of course, you are entitled to make whatever you will of
whatever you will - sweet wittle tinkerpuff that you are.
*X*
George Dalton Madison
>Hear hear. I've been wondering to myself if George's hystronics
>could be interpreted as sexist and racist; discussion?
Try looking at it from the perspective of a Bear who's sick and
tired of being "invisible" in the mainstream gay media -- much
as many gay people are tired of being nonexistent in the
mainstream media of this country.
() B is for Basil, assaulted by bears.
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> fu...@cup.portal.com <]
George Dalton Madison
>How often do people other than George flame other people for talking
>about aesthetics?
Where did I do this? What I *DID* do was to express MY opinion
of "Marky Mark" as others were doing.
>Like Melinda said, it's more like 'Oh no, all that Furr crap again'.
I'm not the only Ursine Person who's gotten those kind of
Ursinophobic comments.
>And it's because of crap like this. You simply can't talk about
>what you find attractive without telling people that they should be
>ashamed of themselves for liking anything other than your ideal. It's
>sickening, and I really wish you would accept the fact that some
>people have different tastes than you do and just shut the fuck up
>and let people think the way they want to.
I'd like to see some quotes from my postings to support this
stream of unmitigated bullshit. When those who are fond of
what the media purveys as the "way to look" talk about it, that's
what is "expected." When someone like myself, or several others
talk about what *WE* like that happens to be different from this,
we get the line that we're trying to "force" our tastes on
others -- as if that were possible, and as if WE weren't being
inundated by the "mainstream" images.
Sound familiar?
>>to *ME*, the face (most preferably with a beard or other
>>significant facial hair, if it's a male) is the first thing I
>>notice, and probably the most important factor in physical
>>attraction for me.
>
>But to hear you talk, if he wasn't positively matted with fur he
>might as well look like the elephant man, and you'd never be able
>to love him. Sad.
Frankly, you don't know enough about me to make any statements
about what I find attractive, particularly about what might
involve my falling in love with someone. This is nothing more
than a particularly crude verbal swipe.
() I will give up my beard when they shave it from my cold,
() dead face!
() -- Peter Thomas (From the "Razor's Anonymous" Handbook)
George Dalton Madison
>Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>>Thank you. I find it interesting that when the Bears are
>>discussing what they find attractive in this forum, we get the
>>cries of "Oh no, all that Bear crap again!"
>George, you forget, if the "b" word is *in* the posting, it
>gets counted as a "ohnonotanotherbearposting".
Thanks for proving that this perspective isn't exclusive to
myself, as several people have been saying.
>The big umbrella only works as long as you can balance it
>upside-down ont he tip of your finger. Eventually it starts to tip
>and tilt in different directions.
Indeed.
() [M]y definition of a Teddy Bear:
() A Grizzly Bear, on good behavior, complete with paws
() and claws... and not ALWAYS on good behavior....
() -- Bear Leather
Mike Hennahane
> Soc.motss is still the most heterogeneous GBLO*_group I have
>ever seen, but it's becoming more homogeneous over time. I don't
>think it's in any danger of losing it, andI'm certinaly
>not predicting the "death of the net" or "death of the group",
>but before Mike et alia start patting themselves on the back for
>"showing that this is the work of a few deranged people", there
>is sufficient evidence to show that yes, indeed soc.motss has had
>its share of "anti-bear" postings/threads.
i think that there are "deranged people" that criticise every group
here from time to time. maybe it's not as true as it has been in the
past (due to the bear list, or whatever), but i still think that bears
have lots of representation here. in fact, i would guess that the
perceived over-representation of bears was the cause of a fair number
of the anti-bear postings/threads. i guess that i see this as the ebb
and flow of the participants (or the vocal-ness of the participants).
> Now is it a BIG THING? No, there are inclusivity issues
>that greatly exceed the need to be more bear-sensitive. Certainly
>seeing more womyn is one, minorities another. When was the last time
>we heard anything aboutthe radical faeries here? Girth and Mirth?
>Womyn's music fstivals? I'm especially concerned about the presence
>of motss.womyn because the intial data from the aborted sample
>above indicated that the %age of womyn DECREASED over the last 2.5 years
>almost by 50%! To me that's alarming...
yes.
me:
>>thanks, melinda. you have crystalized my thoughts exactly.
> Are you sure you want to use that word? I'm tempted to
>agree but not gfor the same reasons you want.
i did not post because i wanted you to agree (and if i thought about
it, i would probably have used different words). the point of my
posting (and melinda's i think) is that i get crabby sometimes reading
yet another GDM whiny evangelical hell-fire bears uber alles posting.
he really alienates me (and others it would seem), and i think that
some of this is what carries over when people make comments to *you*
(bob) about liking anything that has a beard because you are a bear
lover (cf. marky mark discussion).
--mike
M.D. Shepherd
>Fu...@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>
>was hardly 'exploiting a black art' anyway, unless the boundaries
>for 'black territory' encompassed a lot more than I'd thought...)
>
Oh, gee, let's start categorizing, stereotyping, and be total bigots.
Espicially on this newsgroup, you'd think that would be kept to a
minimum. Why can't a rapper be white? Sure, there aren't a hell of a
lot of 'em, and I hate rap, but give the guy a break. What about the
black metal band Living Colour? Are they walking oxymorons? Come on,
guys...look past the surface, look past the race, look beyond what your
eyes tell you. If Marky likes rap, he has every right to 'produce' it.
If it sells, great for him.
later,
Mike
--
Michael Shepherd ++ mds...@ultb.isc.rit.edu ++ shepherd...@xerox.com
* From the pain come the dream, From the dream come the vision, From the *
* vision come the people, And from the people come the power, From this *
* power come the change. - P. Gabriel *
cbe
>In article <thaaang.721931083@cwis> tha...@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:
>>>>body. This what-his-name is simply a media creation exploiting a
>>>>legitimate art for by co-opting it for the white masses, or in other
>>>>words, doing just what he used to do as a member of NKOTB. I mean, why
>>>>isn't he treated with the same dismissiveness as Vanilla Ice was? I
>>
>>This is disturbing. Is 'White rapper' an oxymoron?
>Close to it. Let's just say that someone who pretends to be a rapper
>and is white has a few more credentials to prove before being taken
>seriously. This guy is just from the same hit engine as NKOTB (don't
>give me this crap about being unaffiliated--he's the brother of one of
>them, and I say that as someone born and bred in Dorchester, home of
>Steve Dyer, Donna Summer, _New Edition_, Marky Mark and NKOTB.)
>>(and NKOTB
>>was hardly 'exploiting a black art' anyway, unless the boundaries
>>for 'black territory' encompassed a lot more than I'd thought...)
>Well, it's probably seems that way in Nebraska. NKOTB was simply
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gawsh Mistofer Dyer, Johhny D an' meself jes ain't possible as
sofitikated as youse 'cause we'uns lives in these hear sticks. An' as
allun people no, ain't know blacks or any of there kultur hear or nutin'
else but corn 'n ' beans. I tink Johnny D red & sawed a buk once tho. An'
heck, I war so cornfused livin' a year in Londumb an' Gherminy thet I
culdn't seem to git any of that thar sofitikation but Johnny, him
have more 'cause he lives in a really, really big town. But I shore
do 'pologize for Johnny D fur bein' silly an' tinkin' he culd figger
out sumpin or larn sumpin 'cause he be livin' in the boonies.
Colburn Eigen H|u> = E|u>
John Dorrance
>>This is disturbing. Is 'White rapper' an oxymoron?
>Close to it. Let's just say that someone who pretends to be a rapper
>and is white has a few more credentials to prove before being taken
>seriously. This guy is just from the same hit engine as NKOTB (don't
>give me this crap about being unaffiliated--he's the brother of one of
>them, and I say that as someone born and bred in Dorchester, home of
>Steve Dyer, Donna Summer, _New Edition_, Marky Mark and NKOTB.)
How many white rappers do you know? The only one's I'd suspect
you know are the media sensations: Marky Mark, Vanilla Ice, and
DJ Jazzy Jeff... er, oops. (now wading into unfamiliar terri-
tory, as rap isn't my forte') What about the Beastie Boys (after
their Fight for your Right to Partay crap had been purged and
they started releasing some stuff that was (I'm guessing) worth
some attention, of course)? What about 3rd Bass? What about
House of Pain (I flinch to cite them, because I've only heard
one song by them, which was a big hit, and they might not be
consistent at all)? It's not fair to equate white with inability
to rap. It's going to look that way because the pap pop white
rappers got more attention from the white media, but then what
about Hammer? DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince? Heavy D and the
Boyz? The Fat Boys? Black people can be crappy rappers too. Are
we dividing along color lines needlessly? I think maybe.
And one of the big things that bothered me about George was one
time in IRC when we were talking and he mentioned that all rap
was sexist and bad music, and wouldn't listen to a thing I said
(ever heard Arrested Development?) to try to explain that it's
pretty unfair to make generalizations that huge. He allowed that
some of the women were acceptable (something I agree with whole-
heartedly), but said that he didn't have to listen to any of it
anymore because he'd heard more than enough of it to know what
it was about. Need I mention that rap is only 10 years old? Isn't
it kind of obvious that it had some infantile stuff that could
very well have been worked out? He wouldn't even listen, though.
It really pissed me off.
>>(and NKOTB
>>was hardly 'exploiting a black art' anyway, unless the boundaries
>>for 'black territory' encompassed a lot more than I'd thought...)
As far as I'm concerned, NKOTB was so white as to not even touch
black roots. Their music was a grotesque emulation, not related
to black music in any real way.
>Well, it's probably seems that way in Nebraska. NKOTB was simply
>_New Edition_ in white face, and if you don't understand NKOTB's
>black roots, you're not understanding their music and how it's a
>miracle of co-option and assimilation. Of course, you don't have
>to understand their music to like it: NKOTB was _much_ more lucrative
>than New Edition ever was. QED.
Fine. Because they're white. What's your point? That the buying
public is rascist? Wow.
NE and NKOTB were one and the same, fine. But why is NE more acceptable
than NKOTB simply because the NE kids were black? Why can't a white
person with talent explore black roots and artforms? Am I doomed to
emulate Barry Manilow because if I do otherwise I risk appropriating
another culture? Oh, fuck, he's Jewish, isn't he? God, I'm going to
have to be Shaun Cassidy.
>>How often do people other than George flame other people for talking
>>about aesthetics?
>Perhaps as often as people other than Donald Agarrat talk about race
>relations.
Are you saying that talking about race relations and flaming about
aesthetics are equally important pasttimes? Both George and Donald
are talking about minority issues, but I'd have to say that soc.motss
is more in need of racial awareness than aesthetic diversity, and
George goes off on people a lot more often and more virulently than
Donald does, with a lot less justification (see Prince example
below).
>You know, both can be pains in the asses, but they have a
>point to make which gets lost in the assumptions of the majority.
>(I don't mean to trivialize race relations in this comparison; it is
>arguably more pressing and agonizing than an aesthetic of what turns
>people on, I simply wish to use the analogy as a tool.)
It's not really a good one, though. Donald talks about race
relations (among other things, need I add), and there is most
definitely a 'good' side and a 'bad' side to the issue.
George is talking aesthetics, and that's just not cut and dry.
I'm not belittling looksism here, because I see it and try not
to be a perpetrator, but Donald's NWA is infinitely more
respectable to me than George's HGWA.
>>Like Melinda said, it's more like 'Oh no, all that Furr crap again'.
>>And it's because of crap like this. You simply can't talk about
>>what you find attractive without telling people that they should be
>>ashamed of themselves for liking anything other than your ideal. It's
>>sickening, and I really wish you would accept the fact that some
>>people have different tastes than you do and just shut the fuck up
>>and let people think the way they want to.
>The "people have different tastes" claim is really a claim that
>"all gay men have a single taste", which is really the taste of
>Calvin Klein ads, 90210, Melanoma, bad plaster casts of Michel-
>angelo's _David_ in the foyer, and millenia of young beardless
>ephebes.
Well fuck you too. I'm not saying anything like that; you're acting
like I'm into twinks or something. And I'm not; my tastes are a lot
more in line with George than they are with Melmon. But George's
hair supremacy kick is just too much. He's not just raving about
bears; noone minds that, I hope. He's raving, then twink-bashing,
and that's not right, any more than the opposite. I appreciate the
diversity offered by people talking about different types of people,
but I do *not* appreciate people trying to censor other people.
>In such a milieu of shared assumptions, and heavy with
>the institutionalized taste of centuries, why shouldn't there be
>a discordant note sounded from those who feel marginalized?
>"Fine, if they'd only know when to shut up." Right. This should
>sound familiar as well.
I'm pretty non-twink in my affections as well, and it still bothers
me. This isn't just someone asserting their tastes, or standing up
for an unpopular choice; it's someone actively insisting that others
accept his as the superior, and being disdainful of anything that's
not related to their tastes. It really got on my nerves, for example,
when George spewed a flame just because me and Sim each posted an
article in which Prince's Sexy MF was mentioned. Prince is hardly
mainstream (though admittedly more than whatever it is George listens
to), but George still felt it was necessary to jump in from out of
nowhere and make it known that Prince was not to his liking, and
(and this is the big thing) went on to bitch about Prince's song-
writing ability and talent. There was absolutely no reason for him
to do that; argumentativeness could cover it, but it's hardly a
reason. We weren't acting like everyone *had* to like Prince;
we didn't even indicate that we did.
And he does the same thing with looks. When it would be fine to
assert or display or proclaim affection for a certain type of man,
he goes beyond that to flaunting scorn for anyone who isn't that
type. He's talked about how awful shaving is, and that's not
exactly a mainstream fetish (well, I guess in a way it is, but
for him to act like FWA is Uncle Tom for his smoothness is pushing
things beyond the scope of reality).
In short, he's needlessly hurting people that don't necessarily
deserve it just because some people do. Sure, people are all
looksist to some extent, but he's being more antagonistic than
anyone *I* know. I know people who go eww at a hairy/older/what-
ever guy, but they don't shun me for liking him. George does.
>I am happy when everyone expresses an opinion, including when
>people like George and BBC do as well. That's not to say that
>inconsistencies shouldn't be pointed out (Steve Arrants's comments
>on BBC's reaction to MM if he were bearded and covered with fur
>is a case in point.)
But George squelches the opinions of others more than he actually
voices his own. It's not like soc.motss is bear-unfriendly; I'd
like it a lot less if it were. People sure as hell don't go ick
every time someone talks about a furry guy. The only time this
happens is when someone acts like there is no other option than
fur. When they do things like that, they deserve to be flamed,
just as people do when they pretend twinks make the world go
around.
John, thinking he makes sense here, and hoping Steve'll help
him understand if he's overlooking something important
Gene W. Smith
>hmmm. The encapsulation may prove tricky, however, as Kinsey UNIX
>Version 6 has hard interfaces.
The interface to Madonna is not that hard in Version 6, so don't
sweat it.
Bob Lodenkamper
Madison) writes:
Try looking at it from the perspective of a Bear who's sick and
tired of being "invisible" in the mainstream gay media -- much
as many gay people are tired of being nonexistent in the
mainstream media of this country.
Well, it is also true that you personally account for a significant
fraction of the really negative aesthetic judgements posted to
soc.motss, and you have done so consistently for quite some time.
Saying Marky Mark is an "ugly little fuck" doesn't affirm anything
except your contempt for Marky Mark and those who look like him.
If the slobbering over Marky Mark got on your nerves there were any
number of things you could have done in response, ranging from
ignoring it to lampooning the slobberers, that would have been quite a
bit less offensive (and infinitely more to the point) than getting up
on your soapbox again and proudly announcing your contempt for those
who are "ugly" in your eyes.
- Bob
Greg Parkinson
In article <BxsBw...@queernet.org>, rog...@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov15.1...@wixer.cactus.org>, laz...@wixer.cactus.org
|> (Michael Lax) writes:
|> |> Some of us think he's a hunk, others think he's white trash.
|>
|> Some of us think he's both.
And therefore find ourselves getting a bit fluffy when we
look at him.
I wouldn't push him off if he sat on *my* face.
--
Greg Parkinson Phone: 212-657-7814 Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street E-Mail: g...@fig.citib.com
New York, New York 10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
Michael A. Thomas
Heh. My cultivated and pure Southern California accent is constantly
being assaulted by various mongrel accents which I am occasionally
subjected to on trips. I have a *horrible* propensity for picking up
dialects in record time. To this day, a one week visit to Montreal
resulted in the incurable affliction of "eh?". When I was down in
Na'lins for Decus a few people noticed upon my return various tell-
tale signs of that dread dialect -- it seems that my slowing in speech
and drawl were more to due with the massive imbibing which took place
on that trip (right Greg?) and thankfully there's no trace now.
Boston, thankfully, though I've been back recruiting a number of
times has largely not affected me -- but I do sort of find their
accents cute in an odd way which is usually a bad sign. Also, I
know that were I to go to Ireland, I'd immediately turn into a faire
leprechaun and they'd have to shoot me upon return.
> BBC
> (the middle B is for Bayah, donchaknow)
Try Advils (aardvarks), they work much bettah.
Stephen Arrants
>>Hear hear. I've been wondering to myself if George's hystronics
>>could be interpreted as sexist and racist; discussion?
>
>Try looking at it from the perspective of a Bear who's sick and
>tired of being "invisible" in the mainstream gay media -- much
>as many gay people are tired of being nonexistent in the
>mainstream media of this country.
>
"hystronics" were sexist and/or racist. There is a "look" that's popular
right now, and Mr.Marky Mark fits it. What it is about body hair and beards
that makes some folks gag?
(xcuse typeos.....just back from ER with broken ankle and lots 'o painkillers).
J. N. Shaumeyer
Mike Hennahane (mich...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> .... maybe it's not as true as it has been in the
> past (due to the bear list, or whatever), but i still think that bears
> have lots of representation here. in fact, i would guess that the
> perceived over-representation of bears was the cause of a fair number
> of the anti-bear postings/threads.
You know, I think that there are *lots* of gay people
in society, in every walk of life, but you just don't
see them. In fact, I would guess that the perceived
over-representation of people of flamboyance was the
cause of a fair number of fag bashings; they're the
ones keeping the normal ones in the closet.
Since anti-bear postings are a reasonable response to
'over-representation', could you tell us the correct
amount of representation please so that we could avoid
future unpleasantness? A list of bear topics and
affectations would be useful too, just to avoid confusion.
BBC asked:
> > Now is it a BIG THING? No, there are inclusivity issues
> >that greatly exceed the need to be more bear-sensitive.
And he lists some examples, all welcome. But excuse me
if I care not to minimize bear visibility to the point
of invisibility. I don't care to underestimate the
potential increase in self-esteem of the reader who, not
looking like Marky Mark or Jason Priestly, discovers that
there are men who appreciate a mature figure and hirsute
aspect.
> .... the point of my
> posting (and melinda's i think) is that i get crabby sometimes reading
> yet another GDM whiny evangelical hell-fire bears uber alles posting.
> he really alienates me (and others it would seem), and i think that
> some of this is what carries over when people make comments to *you*
> (bob) about liking anything that has a beard because you are a bear
> lover (cf. marky mark discussion).
Have you considered that it might be *important* to
some people, that it is something which they do not
take lightly?
Consider the parallels:
"Oh, hon, don't mind *him*--he's on the *rag*."
"Oh, BBC/GDM wouldn't like *him*--he's not fat and hairy."
--jns
Jeff Norris
Gilda was Rosane, Babawa, and a host of other great characters.
Lily is Ernestine (the operator), and a host of other characters.
-jeff [who thinks Gilda and Lily will be remembered for at least as long as
Marlena OR Madonna. (Can comidians be icons?)]
J. N. Shaumeyer
Matthew Melmon (ma...@apple.com) wrote:
> Are you sure? Isn't Tomlin the one who did the operator (One wingy
> dingy... Two wingy dingy...) I thought she was Babawa Wawa. But,
> if not, I shall amend the statement:
>
> As per Gilda Radner's fabu spoof...
Consider it amended.
[Yes, Tomlin did the operator, but it was "ringy dingy",
and that was "Laugh-In" anyway.]
> (Who was Rosane, Rosanna Danna? I thought that was Gilda...)
Yes.... What? As though Gilda wasn't talented
enough for *two* roles?
--jns
Mick Washbrook
> To
> everybody else he is a pop icon, fashion icon and now gay
> icon.'
I still say he wants slapping around a bit to wipe that impudent smile off
his face; then he needs to be thrown bodily off the stage into a pouting
sea of cardigan queens.
--
Death to all fanatics!!
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Mick Washbrook
> which moved us into this current flat
> was called Sister George.
> (Sadly, I hear they've gone out of business since.)
I hear working for them was *murder*.
Mick Washbrook
> You know, the only person in this forum that I can think of who
> consistantly, repetitively, and boorisly whines about people other
> than His Type is GDM. It's really quite boring, and probably indicative
> of some sort of insecurity.
Well, you're right, of course, but in this *particular* instance, George
is exactly right. Marky Mark is just the kind of nasty little boy who'd
make annoying little rings on your coffee-table and insist on leaving
ugly greasy fingerprints on your limited edition Giger lithographs.
Shudder.
Mick Washbrook
> In article <1992Nov15....@quantime.co.uk> ro...@quantime.co.uk
> (Roger Phillips) writes, quoting "Face":
> >Marky Mark _is_ a rapper ... he is a pop icon, fashion icon and now
> >gay icon.'
>
> Just like Marlene Dietrich!
Yes, the resemblance is quite breathtaking, is it not?
Stephen Arrants
>>>our idols with our heads instead of our balls. That will
>>>make the choice doubly-sweet if said choice is also *HOT* by our
>>>own "standards of objectifyable excellence".
>>>
>
>>Oh c'mon, Bob. There's a difference between an idol and an object of lust.
>
> Is there? I think that depends on the person.
No, it depends on what turns each of us on. If it is a hairless "ephebe" fine.
If it is a burly hairy WWF member (Arne Anderson? Hacksaw Jim Duggan? ) fine.
You've stated your views on them, yet their politics, "PC-ness", etc.
wasn't mentioned.....
>>Objects of lust are allowed a little more leeway. If Mr. Marky Mark was
>>exactly the same person yet had lots of body hair, a beard, and fit the "bear"
>>image, I'm sure you're comment would be much more muted. Methinks thou doth
>>protest too much.
>
> I am *so* fucking sick of this argument. It makes the basic
>assumption that deep down we're all as petty and shallow as the most
>visible shallow person among us. What utter crap. While this might
>be a reflection of how*you* think, Stephen, (for which I am utterly
>surprised) it doesn't necessarily apply to me.
Bobby, when it comes to lust I'd venture that ALL of us are petty and shallow.
I freely admit that there are some guys that get me hot and bothered just
beause of the way they look, and the hell with their views and opinions. But
that's just lust and fantasy. In the real world of real life and real
relationships therey;d be nothing there but the look.
And please, don't give me this holier than thou crap, Bob. You've done it too.
There's nothing really wrong with it; it just is.
> Sorry, you're barking up the wrong bear. Better luck next time.
>For your collective edification, when confronted with the scenario above
>my reaction tends to be "nice bear - too bad he's such an asshole".
>aI can think of a few people where I work that fit this description - on
>a purely physical level they might be very hot, but knowing them, and
>not liking it makes it impossible for me to even think aboutoutside of those
>terms.
Pfffft! Then you've changed a lot since the Seattle visit.
> Now of course it could be that some of the people I lust after
>are in reality complete jerks, and I just don't know it yet. That in
>fact has happened before on campus. I guess the overriding motto is:
>there are plenty of bears in the sea why waste time on the assholes?
Because we do. Because it is fantasy. Because hormones have no mind, dear.
> Methinks you assume too much. How sad.
Methinks you need to learn how to read. There's nothing wrong with your
inconsistencies. That;s just the way things are. Please don't hold everyone
else to a higher standard than you want to be held to.
Stephen Arrants
>
>In article <BxsBw...@queernet.org>, rog...@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
>|> In article <1992Nov15.1...@wixer.cactus.org>, laz...@wixer.cactus.org
>|> (Michael Lax) writes:
>|> |> Some of us think he's a hunk, others think he's white trash.
>|>
>|> Some of us think he's both.
>
>And therefore find ourselves getting a bit fluffy when we
>look at him.
>
>I wouldn't push him off if he sat on *my* face.
>