Glory Holes
Marc Talusan
talking about when they say glory holes. I reckon this is a pre-AIDS
thang and it has something to do with anonymous sexual contact, but I
have not been fully informed.
Could somebody give me clue?
Marc Talusan
tal...@husc7.harvard.edu
David A. Kaye
: I guess I'm naive (or just 18). But I have no idea what people are
: talking about when they say glory holes.
Glory holes are holes drilled in walls in places such as park restrooms so
that a person can stick his cock through and get sucked by someone on the
other side. Some are just crude holes, while others are finely smoothed
by artisans. (The College of San Mateo once had a library glory hole
which was cushioned by large rubber grommets on each side.)
Anyhow, the term comes from gold mining, where miners would dig lots of
holes to try to find a gold vein running through the ground. The one
which hit the vein was called the "glory hole."
Glory holes still exist, but with the advent of cinderblock construction
and armored plates the janitorial staffs are playing rough these days.
In the 1970s somebody took the glory hole concept and made a sex club out
of it -- putting in lots of booths with partitions between them with
holes. Why anyone would want to use such a device when they could meet
face to face is food for thought, but I'd guess that gay men have been
told by preachers that sex is bad that they don't feel they can look
other guys in the eye, so they just look their cock in the eye.
John Hein
brace and bit ...
--
[ John Hein | ]
[ johnd...@drink.demon.co.uk | Phaggots do it on the phone! ]
[ johnd...@cix.compulink.co.uk| Sine Pretio Loquimine Omnibus ]
[ Telephone: +44 31 558 1279 | ]
[ TeleFax: +44 31 558 1262 | 36 B5/6 f+ t- w+ d g++ k- s++! r-- p ]
[ Lambda BBS: +44 31 556 6316 | S8/9 b g- l y- z/ n o++ x-- a+ u- v- j++ ]
Steve Dyer
Marc Talusan <tal...@husc7.harvard.edu> wrote:
>I guess I'm naive (or just 18). But I have no idea what people are
>talking about when they say glory holes. I reckon this is a pre-AIDS
>thang and it has something to do with anonymous sexual contact, but I
>have not been fully informed.
>Could somebody give me clue?
Yeah, the men's room in the Science Center basement. Enjoy!
--
Steve Dyer
dy...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
cc...@acvax.inre.asu.edu
|I guess I'm naive (or just 18). But I have no idea what people are
|talking about when they say glory holes. I reckon this is a pre-AIDS
|thang and it has something to do with anonymous sexual contact, but I
|have not been fully informed.
Yes, Marc, it's when one guys puts his weener through a hole in
a public restroom stall, so that the guy next row over can do things to
it. Pretty nasty, but it was a result of the society not fostering
single-partner relationships. Things are hopefully changing now.
Bud
Elf Sternberg
> Yes, Marc, it's when one guys puts his weener through a hole in
>a public restroom stall, so that the guy next row over can do things to
>it. Pretty nasty, but it was a result of the society not fostering
>single-partner relationships. Things are hopefully changing now.
*Sigh* Another mind lost to the heterosexual paradigm rather
than thinking for himself. Did it ever occur to him that even those of
us with strong, long-term, "primary" relationships still find the idea
of a glory hole hot and bothersome?
Elf !!!
--
PC Bulletin: Henceforth, sentient computers would like to be known as
"Silicon Intelligences." "Artificial Intelligence" is a pejorative term
invented by humans based on the mistaken belief that computers are some-
how not "natural." - e...@halcyon.com
David DeLaney
>cc...@acvax.inre.asu.edu (Bud) writes:
>> Yes, Marc, it's when one guys puts his weener through a hole in
>>a public restroom stall, so that the guy next row over can do things to
>>it. Pretty nasty, but it was a result of the society not fostering
>>single-partner relationships. Things are hopefully changing now.
> *Sigh* Another mind lost to the heterosexual paradigm rather
>than thinking for himself. Did it ever occur to him that even those of
>us with strong, long-term, "primary" relationships still find the idea
>of a glory hole hot and bothersome?
And some of us without them *depend* on them to get through the week...
ObMotss: The security guard seen showering in the local unused locker(tea)room.
Dave "it's either that or the <gasp> magazines..." DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; ObQuote: `I suggest quoting 'J"K"P' and
'J"RR"P' both. --K' Disclaimer: Opinions? UTK?? Me??? BWAAAAHahahahaa <choke>
<snort> hee hee; Thinking about this disclaimer (or about theor. particle __
physics) may cause headaches. Vicki and Paul and Terry but not Joel. VR#: 0 \/
David A. Kaye
: Yes, Marc, it's when one guys puts his weener through a hole in
: a public restroom stall, so that the guy next row over can do things to
: it. Pretty nasty, but it was a result of the society not fostering
: single-partner relationships. Things are hopefully changing now.
Why do you assume this? San Francisco goes all out to help boost
male-male relationships, what with domestic partners registrations, the
recognition in society of same-sex couples, YET if you drilled a glory
hole in a restroom somewhere there'd still be a line of people waiting to
use it.
I think this is a biological condition of male sex. Males like lots of
rapid anonymous sex. It's a biological drive. When you get a male-female
couple together the male often gives up his wanderlust in exchange for the
security of having a home. With male-male couplings both people are
coming from the same headspace. This explains why male-male relationships
are over in a flash, but in female-female relationships when they break up
it's something they're still doing 2 years later, and likely to continue
to be something they talk about 3 years after THAT.
Greg Parkinson
>I think this is a biological condition of male sex. Males like lots of
>rapid anonymous sex. It's a biological drive. When you get a male-female
>couple together the male often gives up his wanderlust in exchange for the
>security of having a home. With male-male couplings both people are
>coming from the same headspace. This explains why male-male relationships
>are over in a flash, but in female-female relationships when they break up
>it's something they're still doing 2 years later, and likely to continue
>to be something they talk about 3 years after THAT.
1) Not all males like lots of rapid anonymous sex.
2) What are your qualifications for talking about
"biological drives" and how all males have the ones
you're talking about here?
3) Males are capable of looking for and enjoying
the security of having a home without being tricked
into it by women.
4) Male-male relationships are *not* by definition
over in a flash.
5) Your characterization of male-male vs female-female
relationships is just plain *wrong* and is nothing more
than a cultural myth that makes women into nest-oriented
homemakers and men into wandering sperm factories.
--
---------------------------------------------------------
Greg Parkinson New York, New York g...@panix.com
...beauty is convulsive or not at all...
Robert Hansen
>I think this is a biological condition of male sex. Males like lots of
>rapid anonymous sex. It's a biological drive.
Excuse me...?
Watch your sweeping generalizations. "Some" males or "many" males may like
"lots of rapid anonymous sex", but *not all* males.
ROBERT HANSEN - Oregon Health Sciences University - Portland, Oregon USA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"If you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain. And, honey,
I surely do not want to give up my right to complain, no sir."
(Bessie Delany)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Melinda Shore
>5) Your characterization of male-male vs female-female
> relationships is just plain *wrong* and is nothing more
> than a cultural myth that makes women into nest-oriented
> homemakers and men into wandering sperm factories.
It's absolutely just plain wrong. I believe recent surveys
have shown that male-male relationships actually last longer
than female-female, on average.
--
Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - sh...@tc.cornell.edu
Sim Aberson
>I think this is a biological condition of male sex. Males like lots of
>rapid anonymous sex. It's a biological drive. When you get a male-female
>couple together the male often gives up his wanderlust in exchange for the
>security of having a home. With male-male couplings both people are
>coming from the same headspace. This explains why male-male relationships
>are over in a flash, but in female-female relationships when they break up
>it's something they're still doing 2 years later, and likely to continue
>to be something they talk about 3 years after THAT.
You forgot the smiley, right? Of course.
(I wonder what I am, neither fitting this description of male, nor being
really pink and soft and feminine. I always knew I was different.)
--
Sim Aberson AOML/Hurricane Research Division Miami, FL
I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion.
If a plant cannot live according to its nature, it dies; and so a man.
Henry David Thoreau
Greg Parkinson
>In article <2i1c6d$k...@panix.com> g...@panix.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:
>>5) Your characterization of male-male vs female-female
>> relationships is just plain *wrong* and is nothing more
>> than a cultural myth that makes women into nest-oriented
>> homemakers and men into wandering sperm factories.
>It's absolutely just plain wrong. I believe recent surveys
>have shown that male-male relationships actually last longer
>than female-female, on average.
I think that in terms of longevity, it was
male-male the longest followed by male-female
followed by female-female.
An associated detail (as if longevity wasn't
the *defining* characteristic of a relationship)
was that male-male tended to stay together but
become non-monogamous if sexual compatibility
became an issue, whereas female-female would
be based on a sexual relationship, and when and
if the sex moved elsewhere (women? sexual needs?
non-nest-bound?) then the members would re-form
relationships with the new partners.
I wonder, as women have more money and do the
joint-ownership thang when they get married,
if they will become more like gay men.
Kristin Bergen
>I think this is a biological condition of male sex. Males like lots of
>rapid anonymous sex. It's a biological drive. When you get a male-female
>couple together the male often gives up his wanderlust in exchange for the
>security of having a home. With male-male couplings both people are
>coming from the same headspace. This explains why male-male relationships
>are over in a flash, but in female-female relationships when they break up
>it's something they're still doing 2 years later, and likely to continue
>to be something they talk about 3 years after THAT.
<------evidently was frozen in a cryogenics lab before the advent of
poststructuralism, and only recently woke up...
Rise and Shine, Mr. Kaye! You've less than six years left in which to
join the 20th century!
Steve Dyer
>are over in a flash, but in female-female relationships when they break up
>it's something they're still doing 2 years later, and likely to continue
>to be something they talk about 3 years after THAT.
Davis, have you met Mike?
--
Steve Dyer
dy...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
Michael Bryan
> Yes, Marc, it's when one guys puts his weener through a hole in
>a public restroom stall, so that the guy next row over can do things to
>it.
That's pretty much it, although glory holes can exist in places other
than public restrooms. Such as in adult bookstores, sex clubs, etc.
>Pretty nasty, but it was a result of the society not fostering
>single-partner relationships. Things are hopefully changing now.
I beg your pardon? "Nasty" is in the eye of the beholder, my friend.
As for your "theory" as to why they exist, my two most immediate
objections are:
1) If I were in a long-term committed relationship, I would still
enjoy occassional glory-hole action. Provided my partner were
inclined to allow that in our relationship, and anyone likely
to be a partner of mine probably would.
2) Society *does* foster single-partner relationships among
heterosexuals. Yet I've certainly seen more than my fair
share of "straight" married men make use of a glory hole.
You might not like glory holes --- that's fine. Lots of people don't.
But there are a significant number of us who do. It's just another
in a *very* long list of menu selections one can choose from when
having sex. Your dislike of it does not make the activity "bad",
anymore than my dislike of beets makes *them* bad.
--
Michael Bryan mic...@resonex.com +1 510 249 9600 Ext 325
Resonex, Inc. ____ ____
47911 Westinghouse Dr. \ / \ /
Fremont, CA 94539 \/ Time and Tide Melt The Snowman \/
Michael Thomas
> In article <2i1c6d$k...@panix.com> g...@panix.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:
> >5) Your characterization of male-male vs female-female
> > relationships is just plain *wrong* and is nothing more
> > than a cultural myth that makes women into nest-oriented
> > homemakers and men into wandering sperm factories.
> It's absolutely just plain wrong. I believe recent surveys
> have shown that male-male relationships actually last longer
> than female-female, on average.
I was intrigued by that statistic as well, but as with
all things gay, one has to be a bit suspicious about any
statistics in this area.
That being said, and Mr. Kaye's wide brush over
generalizations aside, do you really think there
*isn't* something, on average, to the female
"nest building", male "sperm factory" generalization?
It seems to me to be fairly accurate, and has some
potential evolutionary roots. I, for one, don't think
this is all cultural since the same pattern seems
to emerge in disparate cultures.
I think it would be fair to say that the male/male
dynamic is different than the female/female dynamic
even if the exceptions make it pretty blurry, and
it is hard to quantify. Is it unreasonable to
ascribe this as being one difference?
Michael Thomas (mth...@netcom.com|mi...@gordian.com)
606 Sanchez, SF Ca. 94114
--
Michael Thomas (mth...@netcom.com|mi...@gordian.com)
606 Sanchez, SF Ca. 94114
David A. Kaye
: 1) Not all males like lots of rapid anonymous sex.
DAMMIT! Of course, I'm not talking about ALL males. You know better
than to suggest that.
: 4) Male-male relationships are *not* by definition
: over in a flash.
Generally speaking, they are. I refer to Dr. Martin S. Weinberg's
groundbreaking research on the subject. (He also has a fascinating
bisexual study just out.) Also, I would direct you to "The Male Couple"
by McWhirter and Mattison.
: 5) Your characterization of male-male vs female-female
: relationships is just plain *wrong* and is nothing more
: than a cultural myth that makes women ....
I have read lesbian newspapers and literature for years. THEY say this.
I'm repeating it. Heck, even a close friend, a lesbian who has been
through 3 relationships has told me that (1) they never seem to break up,
and (2) that the nesting urge is very strong in her. Please remember
that I don't post idly. When I post something it's because thought has
gone into it. My opinions come from what I've read and observed;
they're not part of any agenda.
David A. Kaye
: Watch your sweeping generalizations. "Some" males or "many" males may like
: "lots of rapid anonymous sex", but *not all* males.
Come on, Robert. You know better than to assume that absolutes exist.
Please give me the same benefit of intelligence. Of COURSE, I'm not
speaking of absolutes. There are exceptions to everything. Do I have to
state this every fucking time? People hit me over the head with this
time and time again. SURE there are exceptions. Are you happy now?
David A. Kaye
: It's absolutely just plain wrong. I believe recent surveys
: have shown that male-male relationships actually last longer
: than female-female, on average.
Coming from you everything I say is wrong anyhow.
Note that I DID NOT SAY that male-male relationship lasted a shorter time
than female-female. So, please READ what I've said. I said that getting
over the relationship is quicker in men than in women. God damnit you're
dense, Melinda.
David A. Kaye
: Rise and Shine, Mr. Kaye! You've less than six years left in which to
: join the 20th century!
I get my information from reading everything I can on a given subject
which interests me, plus in talking with people who I think know what
they're talking about. What's your excuse?
FJ!!
Yes. The words `some' or `most' are really not that hard to spell.
Even I can do it.
FJ!!
Melinda Shore
Ummmm, she's had an education, and doesn't rely on parochial
hearsay??
Mike Reaser
|> In article <2i2l0r$1...@crl.crl.com> d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) writes:
|> >Kristin Bergen (kbe...@acpub.duke.edu) wrote:
|> >: Rise and Shine, Mr. Kaye! You've less than six years left in which to
|> >: join the 20th century!
|> >I get my information from reading everything I can on a given subject
|> >which interests me, plus in talking with people who I think know what
|> >they're talking about. What's your excuse?
|>
|> Ummmm, she's had an education, and doesn't rely on parochial
|> hearsay??
Or, just maybe, she talks to people who actually _DO_ know what they're
talking about rather than folks who she _thinks_ know what they're talking
about.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Reaser, Hewlett-Packard N. Amer. Response Center - Atlanta
#include <standard.disclaimer> |
NBCS: B4 f+ t w g+ k s+ l+ |My hometown makes _Deliverance_ look
Reply to: m...@hpuerca.atl.hp.com| like a love story -- JBear, et al
Greg Parkinson
>Robert Hansen (han...@ohsu.edu) wrote:
The problem is that by using the term "exceptions"
you are implying that there is a "rule". What I
and Robert are saying is that "some males" or even
"many males" does not mean that there is rule that
makes this generally true.
Tom Barrett
>That's pretty much it, although glory holes can exist in places other
>than public restrooms. Such as in adult bookstores, sex clubs, etc.
One of the queer guides to SF lists a sex club which has a wall of
multi-level glory holes so accomodate all shapes and sizes. And, of
course, plenty of condoms on both sides of the wall. I also suppose
that they have kneeling pads :-)
Tom
--
Do the right thing...
Greg Parkinson
>Greg Parkinson (g...@panix.com) wrote:
>: 1) Not all males like lots of rapid anonymous sex.
>DAMMIT! Of course, I'm not talking about ALL males. You know better
>than to suggest that.
You should know better than to say "males...." when you
mean "some males....". If that's what you meant to say.
>: 4) Male-male relationships are *not* by definition
>: over in a flash.
>Generally speaking, they are. I refer to Dr. Martin S. Weinberg's
>groundbreaking research on the subject. (He also has a fascinating
>bisexual study just out.) Also, I would direct you to "The Male Couple"
>by McWhirter and Mattison.
How do they define "relationship"? Do they compare
male-male relationships with female-female and male-female
>: 5) Your characterization of male-male vs female-female
>: relationships is just plain *wrong* and is nothing more
>: than a cultural myth that makes women ....
>I have read lesbian newspapers and literature for years. THEY say this.
>I'm repeating it. Heck, even a close friend, a lesbian who has been
>through 3 relationships has told me that (1) they never seem to break up,
>and (2) that the nesting urge is very strong in her.
And you also think that your experience as a gay
man tells you everything you need to know about other
gay men. You might want to consider the possibility
that you could be unusual.
Please remember
>that I don't post idly. When I post something it's because thought has
>gone into it. My opinions come from what I've read and observed;
>they're not part of any agenda.
I don't care whether or not they are part of an
agenda. I care that you state things as fact that
are wrong.
Robert Hansen
>Robert Hansen (han...@ohsu.edu) wrote:
Of course I know better than to assume absolutes exist. Your statement,
though, seemed to indicate you didn't.
Do you have to state this every time? It would help. All you would have to
do is to insert a qualifier in your sentence. "Most" males. "Nearly all"
males. "Some" males.
Am I happy now? Sure. I would have been happier had you not lumped me in
with your sex-crazed relationship-impaired gender to begin with, but your
apology is accepted.
Ann Burlingham
In a previous article, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) says:
>Heck, even a close friend, a lesbian who has been
>through 3 relationships has told me that (1) they never seem to break up,
So she's still with all three of the women?
>and (2) that the nesting urge is very strong in her. Please remember
>that I don't post idly. When I post something it's because thought has
>gone into it. My opinions come from what I've read and observed;
>they're not part of any agenda.
--
Ann Burlingham
Sears Library Case Western Reserve University toujours gai and
x5200 10900 Euclid Avenue always a lady
ax...@po.cwru.edu Cleveland, Ohio 44106 -don marquis
Kristin Bergen
Mike Reaser <m...@hpuerca.atl.hp.com> wrote:
[Mr. Kaye:]
>|> >I get my information from reading everything I can on a given subject
>|> >which interests me, plus in talking with people who I think know what
>|> >they're talking about. What's your excuse?
[Melinda:]
>|> Ummmm, she's had an education, and doesn't rely on parochial
>|> hearsay??
>Or, just maybe, she talks to people who actually _DO_ know what they're
>talking about rather than folks who she _thinks_ know what they're talking
>about.
Both, actually; the former consists in the latter, and the latter depends
on the former. That is, an education *is* talking to people who know
something, and education moreover helps one sort those who know
from...well, from everyone else.
I thank you both for diffusing the boredom of the response to Mr. Kaye I
would otherwise have had to make--I can barely keep from falling out of my
chair with boredom as it is.
Brian Kane
:Greg Parkinson (g...@panix.com) wrote:
::4) Male-male relationships are *not* by definition
::over in a flash.
:Generally speaking, they are. I refer to Dr. Martin S. Weinberg's
:groundbreaking research on the subject. (He also has a fascinating
:bisexual study just out.) Also, I would direct you to "The Male Couple"
:by McWhirter and Mattison.
You must have a different "edition" of the McWhirter and Mattison
book than I have.
The average duration of coupling in their sample was around 10 years,
many of them still ongoing. I think one was even going on 50 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In as much as the pursuit of the stars|Brian D. Kane
is our destiny, this pursuit will lead|kane@{buast7,astro,buast1}.bu.edu
to a radical redefinition of the basic| / ^ \ / ^ \ / ^ \ / ^ \
thing we call "family". Change awaits.|_| |_| |_| |_| |_
gsm...@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Right. Now give us your evidence on what is the exception and what
isn't. How many men like sticking their dick through a hole in
the wall in your opinion?
--
Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo
gsm...@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Charles Squires
> [...] Your dislike of it does not make the activity "bad",
>anymore than my dislike of beets makes *them* bad.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thank goodness SOMEONE around here has taste :-)
Shall we have an "I hate beets" thread? :-)
Charlie
--
______
---------------------------------------------------------------------\ /--
Charles S. Squires, Jr. (squ...@cs.wisc.edu) Madison, Wisconsin \ /
-----------------------------------------------------------------------\/----
Alan Stacey
>I guess I'm naive (or just 18). But I have no idea what people are
>talking about when they say glory holes. I reckon this is a pre-AIDS
>thang and it has something to do with anonymous sexual contact, but I
>have not been fully informed.
>
>Could somebody give me clue?
>
I believe there is a substantial article about glory holes at Harvard
in issue 3 of "Steam" magazine.
If you want to do some first-hand research, and don't have access to
the article, I could Xerox it for you. 8-)
Cheers,
Alan.
Trinity College, Cambridge.
T* C1 L1b h++ d-(+) a-- w+ y+ e+ g t+ s++ m1+ m2(+)
B0 f-- t++ s++ e+ m+
David A. Kaye
: I believe there is a substantial article about glory holes at Harvard
: in issue 3 of "Steam" magazine.
Steam has made it all the way to the UK? Wow! What strikes me most
about Steam is that it's put together to look like a literary journal,
yet contains some of the best glory hole and bush cruising reports I have
ever seen!
gsm...@uoft02.utoledo.edu
>I guess I'm naive (or just 18). But I have no idea what people are
>talking about when they say glory holes. I reckon this is a pre-AIDS
>thang and it has something to do with anonymous sexual contact, but I
>have not been fully informed.
>>Could somebody give me clue?
A glory hole is where someone drills a small hole in the stalls in
the john. Then you can stick your head through the hole and
perform oral sex.
Mary Ballard
> mic...@resonex.com (Michael Bryan) writes:
>
> > my dislike of beets ...
>
> Thank goodness SOMEONE around here has taste :-)
>
> Shall we have an "I hate beets" thread? :-)
>
> Charlie
Yes by all means, let's do. I hate beets *and* I hate scallops.
However, I do like both turnips and brussel sprouts.
Mary, who needs a lighter thread than (dum da dum dum) the "Legal...."
thread (BTW, no more new developments - thankfully)
David DeLaney
>mic...@resonex.com (Michael Bryan) writes:
>
>> [...] Your dislike of it does not make the activity "bad",
>>anymore than my dislike of beets makes *them* bad.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Thank goodness SOMEONE around here has taste :-)
>
>Shall we have an "I hate beets" thread? :-)
>
Dave "will not eat some vegetables for food" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; ObQuote: `I suggest quoting 'J"K"P' and
'J"RR"P' both. --K' Disclaimer: Opinions? UTK?? Me??? BWAAAAHahahahaa <choke>
<snort> hee hee; Thinking about this disclaimer (or about theor. particle __
physics) may cause headaches. Vicki and Paul and Terry but not Joel. VR#: 0 \/
Clay Colwell
Actually, David, what you said was:
**********************************************************************************
From: d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Glory Holes
Date: 24 Jan 1994 12:18:49 -0800
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [login: guest]
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <2i1af9$e...@crl.crl.com>
References: <2hrq09$c...@scunix2.harvard.edu> <23JAN199...@acvax.inre.asu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.crl.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
[...]
coming from the same headspace. This explains why male-male relationships
are over in a flash, but in female-female relationships when they break up
it's something they're still doing 2 years later, and likely to continue
to be something they talk about 3 years after THAT.
***********************************************************************************
It's *not* at all clear that what you *claim* you said is in fact *what* you
said. You've now interpreted what you've said in your response to Melinda,
but her interpretation seems quite valid to me, given your original statement.
Hell, *hers* was the interpretation *I* came up with, as well as a great many
other people.
David, relax, take a deep breath, then try to explain in other words what
you tried to say in the first place. Your original words were obviously
not conveying what you meant.
--
Clay Colwell (aka PlainsSmurf) "Debate on USENET too often is like
cla...@austin.ibm.com shouting at graffiti." -- Me
arch...@vnet.ibm.com Disclaimer: This is *Clay* talkin', not IBM.
S2/6 b+ g/- l-/+ y- z- n o- x- a++ u/- v-/+ j-/++ (mutating)
Paco Ojeda
d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) writes:
> : I believe there is a substantial article about glory holes at Harvard
> : in issue 3 of "Steam" magazine.
>
> Steam has made it all the way to the UK? Wow! What strikes me most
> about Steam is that it's put together to look like a literary journal,
> yet contains some of the best glory hole and bush cruising reports I have
> ever seen!
Where do you get this "Steam" magazine? Never heard of it...
Paco
Paco Ojeda
Marc Talusan
: rapid anonymous sex. It's a biological drive. When you get a male-female
: couple together the male often gives up his wanderlust in exchange for the
: security of having a home. With male-male couplings both people are
: coming from the same headspace. This explains why male-male relationships
: are over in a flash, but in female-female relationships when they break up
: it's something they're still doing 2 years later, and likely to continue
: to be something they talk about 3 years after THAT.
Judging from my experiences, (o.k., they're not extensive but they'll do
for this situation) I think that gay men seem to have a tougher time
developing long-term relationships. But I don't attribute this to
people's biological tendencies. When society rears men to be sexual
aggressors and women to be sexually passive, two men trying to form a
long-term monogamous relationship may have a tougher time because they've
been made to think that sex should be one of their primary desires. In a
heterosexual relationship, the female is supposed to be the one to play
the stabilizing role in the relationship, the one who doesn't give in to
sex too easily. There's no such role in gay male relationships.
Marc
a.k.a.
The original poster who was just asking an innocent question
Matthew Melmon
> I think that in terms of longevity, it was
> male-male the longest followed by male-female
> followed by female-female.
Splatasha fails to see how this is even a statistically viable
possibility. The number of male-female relationship so
overwhelmingly exceeds the number of same-sex relationships
that to get a representative subset of the mf group, which
is of the same scale as representative subsets of the mm and
ff groups, would represent quite a challenge. And there is,
of course, that pesky marriage thing, which gives mf couples
an added legal incentive to remain together.
All told, a meaningless statistic. I question the motivations
of anyone setting out to measure it.
*X*
(Who would guess that homosexual relationships break up much,
much quicker than heterosexual ones on average, but that men
who manage to remain together for a decade will be much less
likely to break up than a male-female couple. Splatasha shall
refrain from making guesses about female-female couples...)
Alan Stacey
>
>: I believe there is a substantial article about glory holes at Harvard
>: in issue 3 of "Steam" magazine.
>
Yes, it's made it all the way here. Specially imported by air by the
amazing ground-breaking me 8-).
(Although one of my issues was carried all the way by the delightful
Roger Phillips and given to me when I enquired about Steam once on
soc.motss)
Seriously, I don't know if one can buy it here, although I don't
recall seeing it and I certainly go to those stores in London that I
think would be most likely to stock it. I'm lucky enough to visit the
US enough for this not to be a problem.
>....... What strikes me most
>about Steam is that it's put together to look like a literary journal,
>yet contains some of the best glory hole and bush cruising reports I have
>ever seen!
>
Not only does it look like a literary journal, it is very
well-written. If most porn stars were as literate as Scott O'Hara
[the editor and a contributor], I suspect they'd refuse to utter the
ridiculous lines they're typically given.
Cheers,
Alan.
Trinity College, Cambridge
John Dorrance
one that I've gone to (haven't actually *used* it) was frequented by ugly
(by my definition of the word - mousy, glasses, pale, looked like overworked
students (possibly because it was in the Humanities building on campus)
(immediate motss relevance: read about this tearoom in the STEAM article
about tearooms at UWM), came across as closety for some reason) guys. Is
it considered picky to judge tricks by their looks as opposed to their
dicks? What's the relationship between bathroom stalls and closets?
John, who paints himself as a slut but is more of a serial monogamite.
I *try* to trick, really I do, but I don't understand the logic behind
having *great* sex with someone and never seeing them again. If you're
attracted (maybe that's the problem. For one night stands, one must
choose ugly partners) and sexually compatible, why not see if something
comes of it? Of course, I'm beginning to realize that I'm one obsessive
motherfucker anyway (do I hear an amen from the Men of my Past?), so
perhaps my experiences are unique...
--
tha...@spdcc.com: John Dorrance, Floozy Smurf, Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico
Today's thought worthy of a British tabloid:
Kate Moss: waifer-thin model
John Dorrance
Sim Aberson <abe...@ocean.aoml.erl.gov> wrote:
>In article <2i1af9$e...@crl.crl.com>, David A. Kaye <d...@crl.com> wrote:
>>I think this is a biological condition of male sex. Males like lots of
>>rapid anonymous sex. It's a biological drive. When you get a male-female
>>couple together the male often gives up his wanderlust in exchange for the
>>security of having a home. With male-male couplings both people are
>>coming from the same headspace. This explains why male-male relationships
>>are over in a flash, but in female-female relationships when they break up
>>it's something they're still doing 2 years later, and likely to continue
>>to be something they talk about 3 years after THAT.
>
>
>(I wonder what I am, neither fitting this description of male, nor being
>really pink and soft and feminine. I always knew I was different.)
No, dear, you're codependent. Nothing unusual in that (and might I point
out to the crowd that Sim isn't all *that* monogamous, thankfully)!
Kisses,
John (dammit! I just remembered I still have that fucking KAte Moss pun
sig. Sorry, I'll go changee it posthaste. Forthwith.)
David Stevenson
>>
>> Shall we have an "I hate beets" thread? :-)
>
>
>However, I do like both turnips and brussel sprouts.
>
Steve Basile
>> Yes, Marc, it's when one guys puts his weener through a hole in
>>a public restroom stall, so that the guy next row over can do things to
>>it.
>
>That's pretty much it, although glory holes can exist in places other
>than public restrooms. Such as in adult bookstores, sex clubs, etc.
[ Much sage philosophical discussions on holes of glory deleted for space]
I had to throw in two cents worth on this, and it's not even MY two cents...
Will the owners of this nifty exchange of pithy quotes please raise their hands?
I snarfed it off soc.motss for my quotes file a while back...Melinda maybe?....
#1>> as an old friend put it, "There are plenty of people with
#1>> whom I'd gladly spend an evening of bondage and water sports.
#1>> But *lunch*! Lunch is another matter entirely."
>
#2> Point taken. Or, put another way: "A gay man is somebody who'll suck the dick
#2> of a stranger through a hole in the wall, but scream if there are smudges
#2> on his champagne flute at brunch."
It is for moments like this that I read news.
OBGloryHoles: BlowBuddies SFO. That's it. Just BlowBuddies.
--
Stephen Basile |"Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't
A Cog In The Machine | sucked into jets." ____
Tivoli Systems Inc. | \ /
bas...@tivoli.COM | DISCLAIMER: _MY_ thoughts, OUR world. \/
Kristin Bergen
STEVE LONG <LO...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> wrote:
>And Kristin, you must know where to get the *best* grits dishes in the
>Triangle - Crooks Corner. Get Bill's cookbook - wonderful recipes!
No, dear, Bill Neal makes the *second-* best cheese grits in the Triangle.
Mine are based on Bill's recipe, but are much tastier, I'm afraid. Also,
I make a better catfish than Crook's. Otherwise, I can't compete. I've
eaten out maybe a dozen times since moving here in the fall, and most of
those have been at Crook's. My theory is that the real genius there is
the saucier, also named Bill. BTW, it's a family restaurant, know what I
mean?
>>--report from North Carolina, where there's lots of grits and sadly little
>>boink.
>
>I wouldn't say that...being a Tarheel Born and Bred (UNC '90), I can
>*personally* attest to plenty of morning boinking (and afternoon, evening)
Sigh. The geography just hasn't worked so successfully for me; the only
one with whom I wish to boink lives in Montreal. Cheese grits are sorry
consolation. They don't, however, cut into my massive telephone and
airline budget, which is yet another of grits' many advantages.
Mary Ballard
> In article <16F4BE...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> S...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Sammie L. Foss) writes:
> >don't you mean bawld okry?
>
> Uch. Okra is one of the few vegetables I really don't
> care for. I like beets, though.
I like the *taste* okra, but the texture leaves much to be desired!
Greg Parkinson
>But what about fried okra? Hmmm mmmm good!
Dave made me grits with cheese and tomatoes
the other morning.
I forgave him for not being a morning boinker.
David Stevenson
>
>Judging from my experiences, (o.k., they're not extensive but they'll do
>for this situation) I think that gay men seem to have a tougher time
>developing long-term relationships. But I don't attribute this to
>people's biological tendencies. When society rears men to be sexual
>aggressors and women to be sexually passive, two men trying to form a
>long-term monogamous relationship may have a tougher time because they've
>been made to think that sex should be one of their primary desires. In a
>heterosexual relationship, the female is supposed to be the one to play
>the stabilizing role in the relationship, the one who doesn't give in to
>sex too easily. There's no such role in gay male relationships.
>
Kristin Bergen
David Stevenson <stev...@netcom.com> wrote:
>BALL...@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU (Mary Ballard) writes:
>>
>>However, I do like both turnips and brussel sprouts.
>>
>But not enough to learn how to spell brusselS sprouts, apparently.
(ahem)...shouldn't that be Brussels sprouts (with a capital B)?
Kristin Bergen
Mary Ballard <BALL...@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU> wrote:
>Melinda (sh...@dinah.tc.cornell.edu) writes:
>
>> Uch. Okra is one of the few vegetables I really don't
>> care for. I like beets, though.
>
>I like the *taste* okra, but the texture leaves much to be desired!
I felt much the same about okra until a Liberian man taught me how to make
some West African stews with okra and fufu which were truly delicious.
(Fufu is a grainy product of cassava, which became a staple in parts of
Africa where cash crops replaced the more nutritious grains; it's a lot
like Brazilian manioc.) Groundnut stew with okra is wonderful. Also,
I had pickled okra at Crook's Corner which I liked very much.
I have since taken okra off the list of things I won't eat, which
presently includes just liverwurst, beef-a-roni, and dick. (I have tried
liverwurst and beef-a-roni, but didn't like either one.)
Ann Burlingham
In a previous article, wpa...@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu (William A. Parsons) says:
>But what about fried okra? Hmmm mmmm good!
>
>-Will (throwing a little southern spin on this sillyness.)
Silliness? Sillyness? (Only your spell-checker knows for sure.) This is
CLEARLY an attempt to get motssers to admit their food likes and dislikes,
for who-knows-what kind of dastardly plot! Will Mary find scalloped beets
on the menu? The okra growers will target our upscale market!
Life-sustaining carrots will dangled in front of our noses by the
prophet-crazed holy carrot growers! Cucumber lovers will be taunted in
classrooms! No more will we know our potatoes!
Motssers, arise! Tell no-one your vegetable preferences! If you value your
crudite, excercise your right to privacy! Eternal vigilance is the price
of freedom! Ask not the price of salt.
Steven Levine
tal...@husc7.harvard.edu (Marc Talusan) writes:
>Judging from my experiences, (o.k., they're not extensive but they'll do
>for this situation) I think that gay men seem to have a tougher time
>developing long-term relationships.
Eight years ago, a friend said, "It's nice to meet so many
long-term gay couples through the national gay band movement.
I don't see any of that in Boston." Well of course not -- he
was in graduate school (the same school Mr. Talusan attends,
coincidentally enough) and his friends were all students and he'd
only been out for two years. This particular
friend is still with the same partner he was with at the time,
who is, in fact, the first sexual partner he ever had. And
now, in the stage of life he has entered, he knows lots of
long-term gay couples, which only shows that limited experiences
lead to limited conclusions. (This is not an earth-shaking observation.)
What bothered me about my friend's comment, even eight years
ago, was its implication that there is something inherently
good about long-term relationships simply because of their
length. It reinforces the cultural myth that it is inherently
better to be in a long-term relationship. That the length of
a relationship indicates something about how good the relationship
is. I don't buy this, not as a generality. Not as the universal
truth it is touted as being.
Unless, under the rubric of the word "relationship," you include
more than I think Mr. Talusan includes -- that is, if you
include friendship as well as romantic encouplement (which is
a subset of friendship, anyway, in the instances I most
admire). In which case, it should become much clearer, even to
Mr. Talusan, that it is simply not true, by any standard or
statistic, that gay men have a tougher time developing long-term
relationships.
When "After the Ball" was first published, I picked it up
in a bookstore and randomly opened it. I fell on a page
that proclaimed that gay men do not develop real friendships
(I'm paraphrasing -- it was years ago). It seemed to me
that in one sentence, the authors of the book were dismissing
my life as invisible. And that of most of my friends.
I have close relationships with gay men that are as long term
as my adult life allows. It is my hope that the connections
I've made through soc.motss, some of which are unquestionably
friendships, will last well into the realm of long-term; some
are several years strong already. In contrast to Mr. Talusan's
experiences, it hasn't been tough at all.
I think it is a mistake to separate romantic encouplement from
friendship in discussing the existence of "long-term relationships."
--
Steven Levine
ste...@cray.com
Bob Koenig
> : > Thank goodness SOMEONE around here has taste :-)
> : > Shall we have an "I hate beets" thread? :-)
> : > Charlie
>
> : Yes by all means, let's do. I hate beets *and* I hate scallops.
> : However, I do like both turnips and brussel sprouts.
>
> But what about fried okra? Hmmm mmmm good!
>
BearCub
--
=======bea...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu=======B1/B2 c+(+!) s-(-) w f k? r m g========
Chubby-bear admirer, Phillie Phanatic, Rock N' Roll Guru, Queen/Freddie
Mercury fan, Disco-dancin', Well-spoken-for, Fun-loving, SnuggleBear,
Cuddler, Easy-goin, Mega-friendly, Bear-in-training. Nuff Said.
William A. Parsons
: Charlie Squires (squ...@zomma.cs.wisc.edu) writes:
: > mic...@resonex.com (Michael Bryan) writes:
: > > my dislike of beets ...
: > Thank goodness SOMEONE around here has taste :-)
: > Shall we have an "I hate beets" thread? :-)
: > Charlie
: Yes by all means, let's do. I hate beets *and* I hate scallops.
: However, I do like both turnips and brussel sprouts.
But what about fried okra? Hmmm mmmm good!
-Will (throwing a little southern spin on this sillyness.)
Kristin Bergen
>Dave made me grits with cheese and tomatoes
>the other morning.
No, darling, it's not "grits with cheese," it's "cheese grits." In either
case, though, yum.
>I forgave him for not being a morning boinker.
Even cheese grits can't make up for this sin of omission, however. You're
too generous. I suggest you demand both cheese grits *and* morning boink.
Live it up!
STEVE LONG
>>the other morning.
>
>No, darling, it's not "grits with cheese," it's "cheese grits." In either
>case, though, yum.
Triangle - Crooks Corner. Get Bill's cookbook - wonderful recipes!
>
>
>Even cheese grits can't make up for this sin of omission, however. You're
>too generous. I suggest you demand both cheese grits *and* morning boink.
> Live it up!
>
>--report from North Carolina, where there's lots of grits and sadly little
>boink.
Sammie L. Foss
>: Yes by all means, let's do. I hate beets *and* I hate scallops.
>: However, I do like both turnips and brussel sprouts.
>
>But what about fried okra? Hmmm mmmm good!
>
>-Will (throwing a little southern spin on this sillyness.)
Melinda Shore
Uch. Okra is one of the few vegetables I really don't
care for. I like beets, though.
Emily's absence from the beet discussion is clear evidence
that she's continuing to have connectivity problems.
--
Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - sh...@tc.cornell.edu
Greg Parkinson
>In article <2i97h4$q...@panix.com>, Greg Parkinson <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Dave made me grits with cheese and tomatoes
>>the other morning.
>No, darling, it's not "grits with cheese," it's "cheese grits." In either
>case, though, yum.
How embarassing. He says he translated it for
my yankee ears.
Mary Ballard
>
> In a previous article, wpa...@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu (William A. Parsons) says:
>
> >But what about fried okra? Hmmm mmmm good!
> >
> >-Will (throwing a little southern spin on this sillyness.)
>
> Silliness? Sillyness? (Only your spell-checker knows for sure.) This is
> CLEARLY an attempt to get motssers to admit their food likes and dislikes,
> for who-knows-what kind of dastardly plot! Will Mary find scalloped beets
> on the menu? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bleah. Ack, ack. You're right Ann, this is clearly a conspriracy.
I say a call to arms is in order. So motssers, take up your plowshares,
asparagus spears, and carrot sticks and we shall beet them peas by
peas.
Mary
Sim Aberson
Kristin Bergen <kbe...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>I felt much the same about okra until a Liberian man taught me how to make
>some West African stews with okra and fufu which were truly delicious.
>(Fufu is a grainy product of cassava, which became a staple in parts of
>Africa where cash crops replaced the more nutritious grains; it's a lot
>like Brazilian manioc.)
Fufu is an interesting dish in that it is made differently all over the
world. I have made fufus with Belizean, Cuban and African recipes, and
while they are generally all made from yuca (cassava), they all have
different flavors. I'm not too familiar with manioc, though.
>Groundnut stew with okra is wonderful. Also,
>I had pickled okra at Crook's Corner which I liked very much.
I love Groundnut Stew. There is a wonderful recipe for it in the
Sundays At Moosewood Cookbook. I don't really like okra either, except
in various dishes, especially Gumbos. I don't like beets at all, but
will live with it in horseradish because Daivd likes it that way.
>I have since taken okra off the list of things I won't eat, which
>presently includes just liverwurst, beef-a-roni, and dick. (I have tried
>liverwurst and beef-a-roni, but didn't like either one.)
I agree with two out of three.
--
Sim Aberson AOML/Hurricane Research Division Miami, FL
I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion.
If a plant cannot live according to its nature, it dies; and so a man.
Henry David Thoreau
Robt Bryant
>No, dear, Bill Neal makes the *second-* best cheese grits in the Triangle.
>Mine are based on Bill's recipe, but are much tastier, I'm afraid. Also,
>I make a better catfish than Crook's. Otherwise, I can't compete. I've
>eaten out maybe a dozen times since moving here in the fall, and most of
>those have been at Crook's. My theory is that the real genius there is
>the saucier, also named Bill. BTW, it's a family restaurant, know what I
>mean?
Unfortunately, Bill Neal, who definitely was family, is no longer
among us. He was a great chef and some of his Nouveau Southern creations
have now become legendary in the area. A long and loving obit by the
Independent's restaurant critic last year failed to mention that he died
of anything at all, just that he died in hospital after a long illness.
I have heard that this was according to the wishes of his ex-wife, with
whom he remained friends, even after they divvied up their already
successful restaurant business and he took his share to found Crooks Corner
with his 'friend'.
Neal was 'discovered' by Craig Claiborne and, after Claiborne's
rave review, he became something of a celebrity in North Carolina.
While he was not out in 'print', I think practically everyone knew.
When my lover and I were house hunting in Chapel Hill back in 1986,
our realtor (a straight woman) made a point of taking us to Crooks
for lunch and was plainly waiting for us to 'get it', which didn't
take long. He was active in the local gay fundraisers and contributed
a lot to the community. He is sorely missed.
Crooks, of course, is still going strong, with Neal's partner
running the restaurant now. If you are in the area, I highly recommend it.
Robert Bryant
bry...@math.duke.edu
Jim Malloy
From: Kristin Bergen, kbe...@acpub.duke.edu
Date: 27 Jan 1994 22:09:20 GMT
In article <2i9e2g$a...@news.duke.edu> Kristin Bergen,
I had the "Grits and Shrimp" at Crooks (excellent) the last time I was in
Chapel Hill,
but sadly, no morning, afternoon, nor evening boinking. Maybe its the
company I
keep?????? ;)
Jim
Tom Barrett
>I like the *taste* okra, but the texture leaves much to be desired!
I grew up on pan fried okra, fresh from the field! And not any of
that disgusting corn-meal kind. Now, I mostly like it stewed until
the pods open to reveal their slimy innards... a little butter, a
little pepper, a dash of salt. Yummmmmm! Fuzzy veggie fiber!
Tom
--
Do the right thing...
Alan Stacey
>In article <2i1mu7$n...@panix.com>, g...@panix.com (Greg Parkinson) wrote:
>
>> I think that in terms of longevity, it was
>> male-male the longest followed by male-female
>> followed by female-female.
>
>Splatasha fails to see how this is even a statistically viable
>possibility. The number of male-female relationship so
>overwhelmingly exceeds the number of same-sex relationships
>that to get a representative subset of the mf group, which
>is of the same scale as representative subsets of the mm and
>ff groups, would represent quite a challenge....
If I understand you correctly, Splatasha is spouting nonsense.
Assuming that you're sampling at random from a large group (in this
case the group of mf couples or the group of mm couples, or the group
of ff couples) the significance of the sample does not depend on
the size of the group you're sampling from. A sample of 100, for
example, is equally significant regardless of whether it is taken from
a group of ten thousand or ten million.
[BTW, DPMMS in my organization line stands for "Department of Pure
Mathematics and Mathematical Statistics". 8-) ]
Jess Anderson
Kristin Bergen <kbe...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>I like cerveaux a lot, actually: it's nicer to think of it as
>"sweetbreads" rather than "brains."
I would think of it only as brains, because sweetbreads is the
thymus gland, cooked up as food, according to the AHD. But
I always thought sweetbreads was the pancreas. "Cerveau," of
course, is the brain.
>Now *Haggis*--there's something I might want to add to the list. Yucko.
>Makes dick look almost tasty!
I'm not saying you should like dick (or even spotted dick), but
I'm beginning to be irritated by the terms in which you speak
of it. People around here don't say "Fags = yucko" or "Snatch =
yucko" or "Leather = yucko," so why shouldn't you be called for
saying "Dick = yucko?" Quite a few members of the cohort think
dick is pretty OK.
>Perhaps you should do the honors, and explain haggis to those mercifully
>spared from familiarity with the vile confection.
I didn't quite manage to get my courage up for trying it, last
time I was in Scotland, but for those who don't know this most
Scottish of Scottish dishes, it's a mixture of the minced heart,
lungs and liver of a sheep or calf, mixed with suet, onions,
oatmeal, and seasonings, and boiled in the stomach of the
animal.
--
[Jess Anderson <> Division of Information Technology, University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu {o"o} UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[--------> You can't hold a man down without staying down with him. <---------]
Kristin Bergen
Jess Anderson <ande...@macc.wisc.edu> wrote:
>I would think of it only as brains, because sweetbreads is the
>thymus gland, cooked up as food, according to the AHD. But
>I always thought sweetbreads was the pancreas. "Cerveau," of
>course, is the brain.
Ah. I've been mistaken about this for a very long time. Thanks for the
info.
>>Now *Haggis*--there's something I might want to add to the list. Yucko.
>>Makes dick look almost tasty!
>
>I'm not saying you should like dick (or even spotted dick), but
>I'm beginning to be irritated by the terms in which you speak
>of it. People around here don't say "Fags = yucko" or "Snatch =
>yucko" or "Leather = yucko," so why shouldn't you be called for
>saying "Dick = yucko?" Quite a few members of the cohort think
>dick is pretty OK.
You're completely right--mea culpa. I was just referring to my earlier
post in which I cited dick as one of few things I don't eat. Obviously,
dick isn't inherently yucko--it's just the wrong kind of food for me, in
the same way that gasoline is excellent "food" for a car, but not for a
human (perhaps an ill-chosen example, but I'm trying to point out a
category division). I think all men should eat dick, in fact.
Bon appetit!
Sammie L. Foss
just so. There is a fine line between great bawld okry and well....
a mushy slimy mess. It is very easy to over cook, and if you
under cook it, it is like eating tiny little corn cobs with stickers
stuck to them. Oh, by the way, it should be boiled whole!
I like them cooked in the same pot as my snap beans (both fresh).
Sammie 'when the beans are done so is the okry' Foss, who has
never tasted beets!
Andrew Gerber
of the mechanics of anonymous male/male sex (glory holes) could turn
into a discussion of beets and haggis.
--
/---------------------------------------------------------------\
| Andy Gerber / age...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com |
| The above is certainly not the viewpoint of US West |
\---------------------------------------------------------------/
Charlie Fulton
Bobbitted or butterflied? And what sauce would you recommend?
ObNAMBLAthread: The boy in the Werther's Original candy ads!
His "come hither" look can't be beet!
Charlie
Kristin Bergen
Charlie Fulton <cha...@isis.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <2ijjke$l...@news.duke.edu> Kristin Bergen,
> kbe...@acpub.duke.edu writes:
>Bobbitted or butterflied?
Wrapped.
>And what sauce would you recommend?
Water-based.
Person in flux
>In article <2ijjke$l...@news.duke.edu> Kristin Bergen,
> kbe...@acpub.duke.edu writes:
>> I think all men should eat dick, in fact.
>
>Bobbitted or butterflied?
Well, I really wasn't looking for an opportunity to tell this
truly beetsly joke, but here we go:
What did Jeffrey Dahmer say to Lorena Bobbitt?
"Are you going to eat that??"
Katie
Éamonn McManus
> Perhaps you should do the honors, and explain haggis to those mercifully
> spared from familiarity with the vile confection.
I think only Scottish people eat haggis, and then only a mercifully
minimal masochistic minority. It has to do with sheep's stomachs.
,
Eamonn
Arnold Zwicky
age...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (andrew gerber) marvels:
>This is the only newsgroup in all of the internet where a discussion
>of the mechanics of anonymous male/male sex (glory holes) could turn
>into a discussion of beets and haggis.
and tiny tim cried out,
"god bless us all"
biiig arnold, wondering where we'll go with that haggis
Kristin Bergen
>I have no idea what liverwurst and beef-a-roni are, being nowt but a
>poor European country peasant.
Liverwurst is a sort of low-grade charcuterie product, resembling in
appearance, taste, and texture the eraser of a typical pencil. I love
pate' in general, so I'm not sure why I hate liverwurst so much.
Beef-a-roni is an American "casserole" (sic) par excellence: very greasy,
with lots of ground beef and pasta which is like rigatoni or penne
(non-rigate). It's just revolting. In New England it's called "American
Chop Suey"!!! Yecch.
>If you ever come to France you might want to extend your list pronto,
>to include for instance horse, brains, and intestines.
I like cerveaux a lot, actually: it's nicer to think of it as
"sweetbreads" rather than "brains." Can't say I've had horse though,
knowingly at least. I did eat a pigeon there, inspired by the Maupassant
story about their toxicity.
Now *Haggis*--there's something I might want to add to the list. Yucko.
Makes dick look almost tasty!
Perhaps you should do the honors, and explain haggis to those mercifully
Kristin Bergen
>I think only Scottish people eat haggis, and then only a mercifully
>minimal masochistic minority. It has to do with sheep's stomachs.
Don't forget the most important part of haggis, which is the oat mixture
stuffed inside the sheep's stomach and allowed to ferment. When it's
fermented, the haggis is ready for consumption. Yum!
Actually, haggis is another example of the kind of food the laboring
classes are forced to eat when they must produce cash crops--like cassava,
which I mentioned in another post. And people wonder why we need
socialized medicine!
Does anyone remember Edwina Curry, the British health minister who
complained that all the poor people in the north of England smoked
cigarettes and ate too many chips because they wanted to ruin their
health? Her argument was that the poor people resented the Thatcher
government and wanted to deplete the public health funds out of spite.
She was later fired in the great egg scandal of '87.
Éamonn McManus
> I have since taken okra off the list of things I won't eat, which
> presently includes just liverwurst, beef-a-roni, and dick. (I have tried
> liverwurst and beef-a-roni, but didn't like either one.)
I have no idea what liverwurst and beef-a-roni are, being nowt but a
poor European country peasant. I know what dick is though, and am
even prepared to eat it on my occasional lapses from virginal purity.
If you ever come to France you might want to extend your list pronto,
to include for instance horse, brains, and intestines. It's as well to
find out what a mysterious French thing on the menu is before gamely
plumping for it, for fear it might be some part of the animal anatomy
you didn't previously think anyone would be perverse enough to want to
eat.
You probably won't find horse in a restaurant, though that surprisingly
cheap meat in the supermarket called _cheval_ should not be allowed to
attract your eagerly thrifty eye.
I rather like snails, though.
,
Eamonn
TOM COLLINS
In article <gate.4io...@annex.com> d.ho...@annex.com
(Dale Hoppert) originally wrote:
> in such an exciting, semi-public setting. Is there anywhere in the Los
> Angeles area where gory hole service still exists? Do guys get it on
> in porn shop booths any more, or am I living in my lustful past?
24 Jan 1994 08:25
Elf Sternberg: >Glory Holes
And then someone named Marc at Harvard asked what a GH was and along
came cc...@acvax.inre.asu.edu (Bud) to sneer
> Yes, Marc, it's when one guys puts his weener through a hole in
> a public restroom stall, so that the guy next row over can do things
> to it. Pretty nasty, but it was a result of the society not
> fostering single-partner relationships. Things are hopefully
> changing now.
At which point Elf Sternberg replied, quite intelligently (as usual):
> *Sigh* Another mind lost to the heterosexual paradigm rather
> than thinking for himself. Did it ever occur to him that even those
> of us with strong, long-term, "primary" relationships still find the
> idea of a glory hole hot and bothersome?
Some comments. First, to Dale, I'm afraid I have no answers. The
basement of the Anthro Bldg. at UCLA used to be v. active, but stall
doors have been removed etc. from the men's room there, down the hall
from the Anthro museum; perhaps try after class hours.
Otherwise, the places that had peep shows etc. seem to have made a major
effort to keep the authorities away. In LA, as you may not know, it is
technically (I say "technically" because it's not really enforced)
illegal to have peep shows with doors that close.
Although Dameron probably still mentions Griffith Park AYOR, the john's
there are heavily patrolled by police and park rangers, and even the
remoter areas are trafficked by police to make sure no one offends the
sensibilities of Mrs. Grundy, who wouldn't be hiking there anyway....
There are, however, private sex clubs that include some GH areas, and
there are baths, which generally are so arranged that any action must
take place in private rooms and not in any area even semi-public. Times
have changed.
Bud simply misses the point. Ah, youth! It's not about relationship.
Lots of people in relationship used glory holes. It's about lust. And
it's also because gay men in particular, and straight (but not narrow)
men as well, figured out a long time ago that sex was a need like food
and water and came up with convenient ways to meet that need. Truckers
and long-distance travelers found the roadside Rest Area an ideal place
to get not only fuel, sleep, and a shower but a little tension release
as well after a hard day behind the wheel of a mobile vibrator.
Like X-rated movie theaters where masturbation or quiet get-togethers
are arranged by mutual consent there in the dark, the RA GH is a great
institution and one that has provided a world of relief and happiness.
I'm not sure what "pretty nasty" refers to, but someone who falls
between the two stools of respectability ("penis") and raunch ("dick")
in favor of the Barney version, complete with ultra-twee spelling
("weener") might have anything in his self-righteous and uptight mind.
As for Elf, I just want to add that it is hot and bothersome enough to
fuel a lot of porn movie action. It focuses the attention entirely on
the sheer physicality of the sex act, an act being performed solely
because one hot, randy man is acting totally to get off by performing
stud functions that are enormously gratifying to the man servicing him.
Sex with love is wonderful, but sex for the sake of sex has a heat all
its own.
Also, of course, as Dale points out, the porno bookstore/theater often
supplied the first experience a scared but and randy young man with
pounding heart might have in fulfilling his dreams of sexual pleasure.
It's too bad things are not as easy to day, and that self-righteousness
wants to rewrite our history and deny the validity of easy access to
release with which men in general and gay men in particular have long
found forthright, if secret and unpublicized, ways of dealing with.
* OLX 2.1 TD * tom...@patchbay.com (Tom Collins)
Sim Aberson
Kristin Bergen <kbe...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>Actually, haggis is another example of the kind of food the laboring
>classes are forced to eat when they must produce cash crops--like cassava,
>which I mentioned in another post. And people wonder why we need
>socialized medicine!
I'm not sure there's much of a comparison between haggis and yuca. I
choose to eat the latter, lots and lots of it. It's delicious,
inexpensive, versatile, and quite tasty. It might get boring if it's
the only thing available, as I'm sure it is in many places. In
So. Fla., yuca is more prevalent in supermarkets than your ordinary Idaho
potato, and I much prefer the former.
Charles Squires
>Now *Haggis*--there's something I might want to add to the list. Yucko.
>Makes dick look almost tasty!
>Perhaps you should do the honors, and explain haggis to those mercifully
>spared from familiarity with the vile confection.
As an expatriated New Yorker who now calls Madison, Wisconsin home, I
found it very amusing when our local weekly "Isthmus" (nice article
this week, Jess!) a couple of weeks ago described haggis as the Scotish
equivalent of lutefisk (sp?).
Charlie,
who still knows very little about Norweigan stuff
--
______
---------------------------------------------------------------------\ /--
Charles S. Squires, Jr. (squ...@cs.wisc.edu) Madison, Wisconsin \ /
-----------------------------------------------------------------------\/----
Charles Squires
>In article <2ijjke$l...@news.duke.edu> Kristin Bergen, kbe...@acpub.duke.edu writes:
>> I think all men should eat dick, in fact.
>Bobbitted or butterflied? And what sauce would you recommend?
Now, now... anyone into healthful eating knows that it's the sauces
that will do you in.
Charlie also
Clay Colwell
In article <2ijbrd$e...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> In article <2ij8up$i...@news.duke.edu>,
> Kristin Bergen <kbe...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>
> >Perhaps you should do the honors, and explain haggis to those mercifully
> >spared from familiarity with the vile confection.
>
> I didn't quite manage to get my courage up for trying it, last
> time I was in Scotland, but for those who don't know this most
> Scottish of Scottish dishes, it's a mixture of the minced heart,
> lungs and liver of a sheep or calf, mixed with suet, onions,
> oatmeal, and seasonings, and boiled in the stomach of the
> animal.
And are you not to eat this concoction accompanied with mashed turnips?
--
Clay Colwell (aka PlainsSmurf) "Debate on USENET too often is like
cla...@austin.ibm.com shouting at graffiti." -- Me
arch...@vnet.ibm.com Disclaimer: This is *Clay* talkin', not IBM.
S2/6 b+ g/- l-/+ y- z- n o- x- a++ u/- v-/+ j-/++ (mutating)
Roderic J. Williams
> ...In
> So. Fla., yuca is more prevalent in supermarkets than your ordinary Idaho
> potato, and I much prefer the former.
I never thought I'd live to see the words "ordinary" and
"potato" in the same sentence. Shame on you, Sim!
Rod [tubers can't be beet]
--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
rod williams : pacific bell : san francisco : rjw...@pacbell.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Kristin Bergen
>ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>I always thought it was pancreas too. I also always thought it
>was "cervelles", not "cerveaux". Are you sure you're not getting
>it confused with veal? On the other hand, I always have been
>confused by that gender thang. :-)
You're absolutely right--it's cervelles; I've actually only eaten them in
Italy, where the dish is called "cervello," I *think*--I have no Italian.
I too can never sort out the gender thang--I'm especially hopeless with
German nouns. So far, I haven't made any crucial cruising mistakes, but
once some guy wanted to fight me in a bar for talking to his boyfriend!
Attn. "Women and Gay Men" thread: This is not meant to be an argument for
bar segregation, BTW...
Thanks for the correction.
steven r kleinedler
Hello, mottsers.
I got a call from the Jerry Springer Show today. They're interviewing
the Ovette lesbians this week and asked me to be in the studio audience
and asked me to bring 9 or 10 of my activist friends. (I.e., they
want vocal people.)
Questions:
1. I have never watched Springer. Is he cool? Are we being set up
or is he going to be fair?
2. I've been kind of following what's going on down there, but
it's been spread over many posts. Can someone provide a simple one-
paragraph explanation of the story.
3. If you have any questions or points you think that should be
raised that can be phrased in a relatively simple sound bite, let
me know, and I will try to get it raised.
Thanks much.
Steve Kleinedler
(wondering how the Jerry Springer show knew to
use me as a reference point for passionate, vocal
pro-queer people... :) )
Jess Anderson
Clay Colwell <arch...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
>In article <2ijbrd$e...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
>ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>>[haggis]
>And are you not to eat this concoction accompanied with mashed turnips?
Others may choose according to their own palates, but the
one thing I will under circumstances *ever* eat again is
turnips, the world's nastiest-tasting vegetable.
--
[Jess Anderson <> Division of Information Technology, University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu {o"o} UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[--------> All that is human must retrograde, if it do not advance. <---------]
Howard Arthur Faye
>ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>| In article <2ij8up$i...@news.duke.edu>,
>| Kristin Bergen <kbe...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>|
>| >I like cerveaux a lot, actually: it's nicer to think of it as
>| >"sweetbreads" rather than "brains."
>|
>| I would think of it only as brains, because sweetbreads is the
>| thymus gland, cooked up as food, according to the AHD. But
>| I always thought sweetbreads was the pancreas. "Cerveau," of
>| course, is the brain.
>
>was "cervelles", not "cerveaux". Are you sure you're not getting
>it confused with veal? On the other hand, I always have been
>confused by that gender thang. :-)
>
veal or lamb. 'Ris' is different from 'cervelle' and cerveau
refers to brain in the figurative sense as in 'cerveau brule''--
a hothead.
--
Howard Arthur Faye * West Hollywood Adjacent, CA
Warren Goldfarb attempted to remove the viscera from The Big Duck.
Mary Ballard
> Others may choose according to their own palates, but the
> one thing I will under circumstances *ever* eat again is
> turnips, the world's nastiest-tasting vegetable.
I have actually learned to like turnips over the past few
years, but only when served with mustard greens and cornbread.
Mary
Howard Arthur Faye
Jess is merely trying to be provocative.
I grew up fed by my grandmother, who started each dinner when
my father was home with chopped liver surrounded by slices of
raw turnips and radishes. To this day I have cravings for
turnips with a little salt, cold and sliced.
Kelley Miller
In a previous article, bali...@nevada.edu (Shawn R. Hicks) says:
>srkl...@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>
>>I got a call from the Jerry Springer Show today. They're interviewing
>>the Ovette lesbians this week and asked me to be in the studio audience
>>and asked me to bring 9 or 10 of my activist friends. (I.e., they
>>want vocal people.)
>>
>>Questions:
>>
>>1. I have never watched Springer. Is he cool? Are we being set up
>>or is he going to be fair?
>
>Um, he's a CHRISTIAN talk show host.
How odd. A Jewish christian talk show host.
>When the guest panel defends
>their position well, he tends to play down their point just before
>ending the show. He isn't rude, or hateful on the air, but he
>is definitely of the oppinion that homosexuals are sinners that
>need to repent. I don't think its a fair or balanced forum.
I think you need to get your facts (you'll excuse the term) straight.
I've been watching Springer since he came on the air, and while he
has an undeniable spiritual nature, and may well believe as you say,
he has no time for hate, and has slammed any organization which espouses
(or even appears to espouse) hate, including the Klan, the OCA, and CFV.
He may feel queers are sinners, but he would in no way deny us our
rights based on that opinion.
>
>>Steve Kleinedler
>>(wondering how the Jerry Springer show knew to
>>use me as a reference point for passionate, vocal
>>pro-queer people... :) )
>
>They're keeping a list and checking it twice. I'd change my name
>and move...
>
Now you're being paranoid.
>
>
>shawn
>
>
>
>
--
*.....your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist /\/\ Internet is the last bastion *
* ae...@yfn.ysu.edu/Kelley L. Miller / /__\ of true free speech. Let us *
*---------------------------------------/____\ endevour to keep it so. *
* God who? *
Tom Chatt
| In article <2ij8up$i...@news.duke.edu>,
| Kristin Bergen <kbe...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
|
| >I like cerveaux a lot, actually: it's nicer to think of it as
| >"sweetbreads" rather than "brains."
|
| I would think of it only as brains, because sweetbreads is the
| thymus gland, cooked up as food, according to the AHD. But
| I always thought sweetbreads was the pancreas. "Cerveau," of
| course, is the brain.
I always thought it was pancreas too. I also always thought it
was "cervelles", not "cerveaux". Are you sure you're not getting
it confused with veal? On the other hand, I always have been
confused by that gender thang. :-)
--
Tom Chatt \ Don't take offense, take action.
Internet: t...@flood.com \ Speak up. When we remain silent,
UUCP: ...!uunet!flood!tom / \ we oppress ourselves.
Shawn R. Hicks
>>Um, he's a CHRISTIAN talk show host.
>
>How odd. A Jewish christian talk show host.
>I think you need to get your facts (you'll excuse the term) straight.
>I've been watching Springer since he came on the air, and while he
>has an undeniable spiritual nature, and may well believe as you say,
>he has no time for hate, and has slammed any organization which espouses
>(or even appears to espouse) hate, including the Klan, the OCA, and CFV.
>He may feel queers are sinners, but he would in no way deny us our
>rights based on that opinion.
I seem to have confused Jerry Springer for another host that appears
here in Vegas.
To those that pointed this out to me in Email, thankyou.
Everyone else can put their flame throwers away now, party's over.
Shawn
Clay Colwell
In article <2imm36$h...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> In article <CKK78...@austin.ibm.com>,
> Clay Colwell <arch...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <2ijbrd$e...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
> >ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>
> >>[haggis]
>
> >And are you not to eat this concoction accompanied with mashed turnips?
>
> Others may choose according to their own palates, but the
> one thing I will under circumstances *ever* eat again is
> turnips, the world's nastiest-tasting vegetable.
Oooo! Specifically under *what* circumstances would you eat them
again? Tell you what: I'll dress in Granny Clampett's outfit,
and you can wear Jethro garb. I'll tie you to a chair at an
old oaken table and feed you mashed turnips out of a cracked
ceramic bowl using a wooden spoon.
Oooo! I'm getting warm (or at least *S*M*U*R*F*Y*)!
--
Clay Colwell (aka PlainsSmurf) "Debate on USENET too often is like
cla...@austin.ibm.com shouting at graffiti." -- Me
arch...@vnet.ibm.com Disclaimer: This is *Clay* talkin', not IBM.
S9 b+ g/- l-/+ y- z- n o- x- a++ u/- v-/+ j-/++ (mutating)
^ (in this one instance)
Richard Purcell
>In <2i1af9$e...@crl.crl.com> d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) writes:
>
>
>1) Not all males like lots of rapid anonymous sex.
>2) What are your qualifications for talking about
> "biological drives" and how all males have the ones
> you're talking about here?
>3) Males are capable of looking for and enjoying
> the security of having a home without being tricked
> into it by women.
>4) Male-male relationships are *not* by definition
> over in a flash.
>5) Your characterization of male-male vs female-female
> relationships is just plain *wrong* and is nothing more
> than a cultural myth that makes women into nest-oriented
> homemakers and men into wandering sperm factories.
>
>--
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Greg Parkinson New York, New York g...@panix.com
> ...beauty is convulsive or not at all...
Thank you....being a veteran of long term relationships (the last
ending after 6 years, not by choice but by illness) I do get sick of
the statement men can't committ. Adult men can.....
Cheers,
Rich P.
szrm...@chip.ucdavis.edu
: I grew up on pan fried okra, fresh from the field! And not any of
: that disgusting corn-meal kind. Now, I mostly like it stewed until
: the pods open to reveal their slimy innards... a little butter, a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled
okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How appetizing!
:)
I have been known to put a variety of unusual things in my mouth
(even..um, make that - ESPECIALLY - slick and slimey ones), but okra will
never be one of them!
Russ Marsh rhm...@ucdavis.edu | "You would be surprised to know how many
aka "Bodacious Tatas" ;) | Kings are just Queens with a moustache."
| - Danny Kaye, in "Hans Christian Andersen"
Arnold Zwicky
drayton) joins jess anderson in maligning parsnips and turnips:
>Which puts you in the august company of James Beard,
>who wrote in the Fireside Cookbook (1947) that you
>might put nearly any vegetable into a pot roast,
>"... except parsnips and turnips, about which the
>less said the better."
beard might have thought this way in 1947, at least with respect
to pot roasts, but by the 70s he was celebrating these excellent
roots. i quote from _James Beard's Theory and Practice of Good
Cooking_ (1977), p. 419 on parsnips:
A much maligned creamy-colored root vegetable, long and
tapering in shape. Sweetish in flavor and extremely good
boiled, pureed, and mixed with plenty of butte and a little
Madeira... Can be used, sparingly, in soups, stews, and
boiled dinners, or in the mirepoix for braised meats. Look
for firm, good-sized roots. [size queen!] In season all
winter long. [some of us are in season all *year* long,
honey.]
only this weekend, the philosopher barbara and the ex-dean
geoffrey produced for dino and j and me the absolute queen of
all steak-and-kidney pies (as i recall, phyllo pastry was not
the standard crust for this dish when i had it in england),
accompanied by a dish of sliced parsnips, potatoes, and
carrots, sauteed in butter and then slowly roasted. exquisite,
*especially* the parsnips.
wiener got to lick the steak-and-kidney plates, *and* to eat
a whole parsnip slice by herself. she was quivering with
pleasure.
then we rested, and sat in the hot tub for a while (not with wiener, i
hasten to add) and chatted and rubbed one another's shoulders and
feet, and barbara bounced various of us on her knees in the hot tub,
proving ample outlet for any exhibitionistic impulses (with which dino
in particular is well supplied). then we went inside and lay
around on the floor in front of the fire. ...but back to the root
veggies...
as for tunips, beard (p. 435) goes on at length about all the things
you can do with them:
Peel, slice, and cook in boiling salted water to cover until
just tender. Combine with carrots or celery, or puree and
mix with pureed carrot. Also good braised, or parboiled and
sauteed... Use turnips as an accompanying vegetable for boiled
corned beef and cabbage..., in oxtail ragout..., or in the
mirepoix for braised meats... I also like to cut white turnips
and rutabagas into julienne strips, blanch them, and saute with
julienne strips of broccoli stalks...
these are not the words of a turnip-hater.
i wish my family had had this advice back in the late 40s - when
beard was still despising turnips and parsnips in print - and i
was given a subplot of my grandparents' huge garden, on their
farm. for reasons i cannot recall (maybe someone told me they
were easy to grow), i planted turnips. double-dug the bed, adding
lots of fertilizer. lavished water and attention on them.
there were a lot of them. and they were huge. and after the
braised turnips accompanying roasts, at my grandparents' house
and our house and the houses of all my aunts and uncles, there
were still what seemed like a small carload left. i think my
uncle walter took them and fed them to the pigs and goats, on
*his* farm. we were not inventive cooks back then (well, my
excuse was that i was only 9). james beard could have helped
us avert a lot of domestic grief and anxiety, if only he had had
his change of heart about parsnips and turnips earlier.
biiig arnold, apparently no longer brief
Greg Parkinson
>ande...@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>->I'm surprised how many of these folks berate cooked spinach.
>->I love it.
>the problem with cooked spinach is that too many people boil the
>spinach Until It Is Dead, and then they boil it some more, and slop it
>on your plate.
I will sometimes fill a bowl with spinach
from the salad bar, put a few pieces of onion
on it, and stick it in the microwave for 20
seconds (covered, of course).
Yum.