I was amazed by that article. I too wanted to dismiss it out of
hand. I just didn't know whether to attribute it to personal
grandiosity, severe alienation, or stupid chauvanism. I finally
settled on alienation, because I've seen too many men spend too
many cycles on too many theories about why society isn't meeting
needs that they aren't even aware they have.
I share much of Jim's frustration at the way creative people are
generally put down, taken advantage of, ridiculed, and abused in
this society. Still, I find it hard to agree that the "deep-culture"
people, as he puts it, are to blame. In my experience, it has been
the white "Christian" establishment that has done everything it can
to stultify and destroy anything that's "different," doesn't fit
it's picture of how people ought to be. Two cases in point are
Tucker, the guy who made those wonderful cars before they ruined
him, and Deming, the American who taught Japan the science of
manufacturing. Both of these men believed that if they pushed
the frontier and created something of value, their culture would
recognize and reward their efforts. Both were ostracized by a
culture that was too "shallow" to recognize their worth or too
greedy to let them keep their rewards.
"Gotta keep them blacks and women and Jews and especially those
crazy intellectuals down, or we'll lose control." That's been
the motto of the white "Christian" establishment for Centuries.
If other cultures are deeper, it's because they have values that
run deeper than "who's on top."
A clever mind that has been alienated from his own emotions is the
perfect tool for maintaining the power structure. An alienated man
will do whatever he's told, and filter his perceptions based on any
doctrine that validates his rage. That's why basic training works so
well. But it wasn't the "enemy" who stripped the recruit of his
feelings, it was the DI. And why? So that that as a soldier, he'll
do whatever he's told, regardless of any feelings he might have.
That's the same reason they start telling us to be "good little
soldiers" from the time we're old enough to get our fingers
around a toy gun. --so that they can use our bodies, the products
of our labor, and more importantly, our minds, without having to
respect or reward us (unless we're capable of both inventing and
kicking their asses at the same time--the real meaning of
"competition"). That's what the "weed-out" in engineering school
is for. It's not enough to be bright and creative. If you want the
advanced technical training, you have to be willing to sacrifice your
ability to feel.
If the only basis for the white "Christian" establishment is its
willingness to use violence (psychological and physical) to retain
power, it deserves to be systematically infiltrated and quietly
replaced by a culture that has some deeper values. There's just no
reason why an intelligent man like Jim should have to risk public
ridicule to have his creativity validated, or his need for social
recognition met, in an indirect and impersonal medium such as this.
First, why does _anyone's_ creativity need to be validated, and
second, what's so creative about the same old "We need to get rid of those
degenerate homosexual foreigners so that our great culture can continue on
the shining path to world domination and family values!" garbage?
the wharf rat
+ How many paragraphs did I spend in RGF on that subject and how
+ is it you missed them all?
Anytime you write more than about 3 pages (72 lines, more or less),
the odds of it actually being read *carefully* on uselessnet is about
Of course the odds of anyone reading carefully on uselessnet is also
He's not the only one who seems to have missed the point of your epistles.
>I understand your fear of acknowledging the painful reality
>communicated in my thesis,
Just for us dumb-ass Bubbas down here, could y'all restate the painful reality
communicated in your thesis in, say, fifty words or less? Fifty short words.
Well, if you took it that way you took it wrong. When I say that
I think your analysis comes from alienation, that is more a statement
about the shallowness of our culture than it is about you. If you've
read any of my postings you'll know that I am just as dissatisfied
with the way our culture is as you are. I bitch about it all the time!
There are some interesting seeds in your ideas Jim, also some very
dangerous ones in my view. In a way, it is the clearest rationalization
of ethocentric patriarchy I've ever seen. In that it claims to show
that our culture is set up so that naive creativity doesn't pay, I'm
glad for that much.
However, I'm not at all glad for any rationale that reinforces the
notion that people who are different can be inferred to be morally
inferior. Hitler could have had a field day with that idea, and in
fact, he did. And it isn't just guilt-tripping for people to say
that rationalizations of that sort are immediately suspect. After
all, Einstein wasn't a "shallow-culture" person, and even with his
unquestionably "deep-culture" values, he did more to push back the
scientific frontier than anyone in this century. How does that sit
with your theory?
It wasn't the "deep culture" people who colonized the globe and
systematically undermined those thousands of other cultures through
force. It wasn't the pagans in africans who reduced Europeans to
an inhuman form slavery that was umatched in the history of the world.
It wasn't the rapacious misapplication of Native American technology
that has destroyed so many self-sustaining habitats and cultures
that even now the very atmosphere and oceans are at risk. It
wasn't the Muslims who made a science out of destabilizing other
governments in the competition for the supremacy of their economic
theories. It was your precious white "Christain" "shallow" culture
that did all that. Most recently, it wasn't a "deep culture" type
like Michael Dukakis who used the image of Willie Horton to manipulate
the racial fears of all those white "Christian" voters to get elected
President. So, was Einstein a "shallow-culture" person in
disguise, despite all of his writings about peace? Is George
Herbert Walker Bush a "deep-culture" person in disguise, despite
is vow to do what he has to do to get re-elected?
Unless what you're telling people is that they need to look
behind the appearance and rhetoric the leadership uses, and at
their behavior to see where their values really lie, yours is a
rationale for disaster IMHO. Too many ignorant people will read
from your work "Oh, white, `Christian', shallow is good. Our
problems are caused by all those other people who are `different.'"
That's why what you're saying is dangerous, and that's why, even
though I believe you to be well intended, I have to challenge your
views and question your motivations. Because if you can't see this,
then you really _are_ alienated.
It's interesting that in using your criteria the conclusion I reach
about where the threat lies is exactly opposite of yours. I stand by
my conclusion. You'll have to do better than "[to paraphrase] well,
they're starting to let non-whites into the board room because
non-whites are good at manipulating people where women aren't."
Any man who's been through a divorce would find that statement utterly
laughable. To that I have to go along with Wharfie: Pfffft.
So, I like your device--drawing a distinction between "people-oriented"
and "object-oriented" cultures and their members. I've got to give you
credit for that. Nice work.
However, IMNSHO, you've thoroughly misapplied it, and in a very
dangerous manner. If you'd called your work "An Apology for
Eurocentric Patricarchy," it would have been an apt title indeed.
I'm not sure that I understand the way "deep-culture" and "shallow-
culture" are being used here. They SEEM to imply that all white
Americans are shallow, and everyone else is deep. How is a Jewish
German-American "deep-culture"? Are you saying that European Jews
were NOt part of the Western colonization of the Third World?
>It wasn't the "deep culture" people who colonized the globe and
>systematically undermined those thousands of other cultures through
>force. It wasn't the pagans in africans who reduced Europeans to
>an inhuman form slavery that was umatched in the history of the world.
Ah, apparently that's what you ARE saying! FIRST, Einstein is NOt
"shallow", but now ALL white Europeans are? And when did the
white Europeans ever engage in slave trade on any large scale, as
the phrase "unmatched in the history of the world" would imply?
Africans had slavery long before any whites arrived. AMERICAN
(NOT European) whites only put it on a larger, more profitable
>It wasn't the rapacious misapplication of Native American technology
>that has destroyed so many self-sustaining habitats and cultures
Native American technology? You mean the bow & arrow? The
tomohawk? What an odd phrase. True, Native Americans lived more
WITH the land than we do. However, I can think of many, many
"deep-cultured", non-white non-Christian countries that are
not exactly utopias of "humankind in harmony with nature".
In fact, some of them are plain old cesspools of filth.
Many of these cultures haven't destroyed their environments
any more NOT because they haven't got the intentions, but
because they don't have the ability. "An unattempted woman
cannot boast of her chastity". Likewise, it is of little
import that cultures that CANNOT destroy their habitats
HAVEN'T destroyed their habitats.
>wasn't the Muslims who made a science out of destabilizing other
>governments in the competition for the supremacy of their economic
>theories. It was your precious white "Christain" "shallow" culture
Muslims don't conquer and pillage for economic gain. They conquier
and pillage for religious reasons. I guess bloodshed for Allah is
alright, though, so long as it's "deep-cultured", non-white, and
>that did all that. Most recently, it wasn't a "deep culture" type
>like Michael Dukakis who used the image of Willie Horton to manipulate
>the racial fears of all those white "Christian" voters to get elected
>President. So, was Einstein a "shallow-culture" person in
Michael Dukakis is president? Somebody should tell him, he'll
be pleased to know. And last time I heard, Buddhists, Muslims,
Jews, etc., both black AND white, were not exactly thrilled by
rapists of any color. Apparently (again), it's only wrong when
white Christians express ideas.
> Darryl K. Johnson I "If English was good enough <
> Texas Christian I for Jesus, it's good <
> University I enough for us." -- A <
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/ DJOH...@tcucvms.bitnet DJOH...@gamma.is.tcu.edu \
Near as I can tell, what he meant was that incremental time-phase
projections, based on third generation hyper-velocity techniques, clearly
show that the historical imperative of Western Civilization has been
and will continue to be immutable but subject to frequent change.