Wishing their husbands would die.
Stephen Gilman
What if my husband died?: Women in bad marriages can see it as the only
way out
Constance Droganes
National Post
Call it a dirty little secret. Something you're loath to admit to your
mother, best friend, even a priest. But there it is in the back of your
mind -- a numbing resignation that your life would be far better off if
your husband just died.
Ridiculous? Not so, say councillors from both spiritual and clinical
backgrounds.
"I once asked a client how she'd feel if she prayed for her husband to die
and he did. She said she'd feel guilt, but that didn't stop her from
continuing to pray for it," says Ancaster-based clairvoyant Lucy Lohwinow,
who in 18 years and more than 10,000 readings has observed such
confessions from educated, intelligent career women, mothers and
homemakers aged 30 to 50.
Of course, this woman wasn't wishing for murder, says Lohwinow. "But to
rely on someone's passing -- to actively be hoping and waiting for the day
that Joe has a heart attack or accident at work and won't come home? We're
just not supposed to feel this way towards our mates. It's an unspoken
taboo in our society.
"It's also a female issue, one that comes from feeling trapped in one's
marriage and frustrated by a partner's grinding negativity and abuse."
Lohwinow isn't alone is observing this phenomenon.
"Imagine how you'd feel if you'd held that wish for a couple of decades.
But women do," says Robin Cleland, a Toronto-based tarot reader and
psychic councillor. "I've heard many women admit to this ... On the
surface their marriages seem perfect. Many are comfortable and have nice
homes, cars and clothes. Yet it's all a veneer. In truth, their marriages
are empty and long since over, yet they stay for fear of being gutted
financially by their husbands.
"There's also the guilt and fear of what people will say, the stigma of
divorce, the fear of trauma they'd cause their children and the fear of
being alone. It's hard to understand, particularly in this day and age.
But in some crazy way the pain you know seems safer than the unknown."
When a woman views her mate's death as the only honourable discharge from
a bad marriage, the message is complicated.
"When a woman says, 'Life would just be easier if my husband died,' what
she's expressing is a fantasy or wish to be free, an inability to voice
her true needs to her mate, and a lot of uncommunicated hostility," says
Rick Tivers, a clinical social worker for the Centre for Divorce Recovery
in Northbrook, Ill.
Dr. Beth Haverkamp, associate professor of counselling psychology at the
University of British Columbia, notes: "One of the effects of our
burgeoning self-help culture -- where you've got Oprah and countless
magazines telling you to leave a relationship if you're not happy -- is
that women's expectations of what a marriage should be have risen. While
there may have been more stigma attached to divorce in the 1950s and '60s,
I think people's expectations for marriage were much lower back then."
"Everyone getting married wants the fairy tale. That's as true today as it
ever was. But when our expectations aren't matched we feel dissatisfied,"
says Haverkamp. "However, when a woman says life would be so much easier
if her husband died it makes me wonder about her past experiences in
making decisions for herself. Leaving a marriage involves both an
emotional dimension and a skill dimension, and decision-making is a skill.
If you haven't had experience doing it, then leaving a marriage and being
responsible for your own life will seem terribly frightening."
As Tivers adds, "Ultimately, when a woman sees her husband's death as the
only way out, the real issue is about taking responsibility for their
lives and what they want from it. But for some women it's hard to do.
Staying in a marriage is like extending their adolescents. Divorce means
growing up."
However, blaming a woman for staying in a loveless marriage, let alone
silently sitting by wishing for their husband's death, isn't fair either.
"Separating yourself and making the decision to leave is not easy,
especially if you've 15 or 20 years invested in a marriage," says Gwen
Vernon, project co-ordinator for New Directions, a 16-year-old,
Toronto-based self-help support service for separated and divorced women.
"But we do hear women say things would be easier if their husbands were
dead, largely because they don't want to deal with him or the mess of
divorce and support payments." And as Barbara Kilbourn, New Directions
executive director, adds, "It's hard to find your voice if you've been
silent and controlled for years."
"Calling these women cowards is cruel. Not every woman has the privilege
of coming from a strong family who would support her decision to leave,"
says Toronto therapist Diane Aiken. "But when a woman sees her husband's
death as the only solution a lot of things are going on in her mind. She
may be afraid of dying, especially if she leaves a physically abusive
mate. In a lesser sense, where the abuse is verbal or emotional, she may
fear her husband's response when she says I want out. It depends on the
culture she is from and how's she's been socialized.
"I divorced my first husband 15 years ago. But when we got married he
wanted me to have five kids right away. I wanted to wait and further my
education. His response was 'We only have enough money for one of us to do
that. Naturally it's going to be me.' My dream was squashed. Many women's
dreams get squashed much the same way. But that's what living under such
controlling conditions will do. It compromises your life and your identity.
"That's why," says Aikens, "If I hear a woman wish for her husband's death
I'll say 'OK, tell me what you'd do if it really happened. Tell me what's
standing in the way of you doing these things now. More importantly, tell
me who you were before you got married.' "
Says Vernon, "If a woman feels such despair and entrapment, it's important
to remember this: You willingly gave up a lot to go into the marriage. You
need to have that mindset again. You have to think, 'I managed before I
got married, so I could do that again if I had to.' Maybe I won't have as
much money, but it's mine. I can control my dreams and future. I can
reclaim my life."
Lohwinow couldn't agree more. "I left a bad marriage, so I know how hard
it can be. While I can't relate to wanting my partner dead and seeing that
as the only way I could move on, I can understand these women's desperate
feelings. In this society, getting married is easy. Getting out of it can
seem worse than death, and many women see countless hardships waiting for
them before they've set one foot out the door."
But, she says, "The one big lesson I've learned from reading all these
women is this: If there's a will, there's a way. If you feel the universe
will give you a door to open and extract yourself from a bad marriage, it
will."
--
"Arguing over the internet is like competing at the Special Olympics.
Even if you win, you're still retarded." - Unknown
"Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words."
- Proverbs 23:9
Giant Attitude
> A drastic escape route
> What if my husband died?: Women in bad marriages can see it as the only
> way out
>
>
> Constance Droganes
> National Post
>
> Call it a dirty little secret. Something you're loath to admit to your
> mother, best friend, even a priest. But there it is in the back of your
> mind -- a numbing resignation that your life would be far better off if
> your husband just died.
I have a numbing resignation that life would be far better off
if...but I'm not even allowed to say it.
> Ridiculous? Not so, say councillors from both spiritual and clinical
> backgrounds.
>
> "I once asked a client how she'd feel if she prayed for her husband to die
> and he did. She said she'd feel guilt, but that didn't stop her from
> continuing to pray for it," says Ancaster-based clairvoyant Lucy Lohwinow,
> who in 18 years and more than 10,000 readings has observed such
> confessions from educated, intelligent career women, mothers and
> homemakers aged 30 to 50.
A clairvoyant? How much more expert on human affairs can you get?
> Of course, this woman wasn't wishing for murder, says Lohwinow.
*Of course*. "Men bad, women good" The woman's motivations ALWAYS
have to be looked at from a standpoint most favorable to her.
> "But to
> rely on someone's passing -- to actively be hoping and waiting for the day
> that Joe has a heart attack or accident at work and won't come home? We're
> just not supposed to feel this way towards our mates. It's an unspoken
> taboo in our society.
No, if it's women wishing evil for men, it's neither unspoken nor a
taboo.
> "It's also a female issue, one that comes from feeling trapped in one's
> marriage and frustrated by a partner's grinding negativity and abuse."
Oh, I see.
> Lohwinow isn't alone is observing this phenomenon.
>
> "Imagine how you'd feel if you'd held that wish for a couple of decades.
> But women do," says Robin Cleland, a Toronto-based tarot reader and
> psychic councillor. "I've heard many women admit to this ... On the
> surface their marriages seem perfect. Many are comfortable and have nice
> homes, cars and clothes. Yet it's all a veneer. In truth, their marriages
> are empty and long since over, yet they stay for fear of being gutted
> financially by their husbands.
In spite of the statistics that say that women initiate most divorces
and men suffer most from divorce.
> "There's also the guilt and fear of what people will say, the stigma of
> divorce,
*STIGMA*! There's about as much stigma to divorce as there is to
spitting on the sidewalk.
> the fear of trauma they'd cause their children and the fear of
> being alone. It's hard to understand, particularly in this day and age.
Media mutt pop psychologists!
> But in some crazy way the pain you know seems safer than the unknown."
So fantasize about murder instead.
> When a woman views her mate's death as the only honourable discharge from
> a bad marriage, the message is complicated.
It seems very UNcomplicated to me.
But finding complications shields women from moral censure.
> "When a woman says, 'Life would just be easier if my husband died,' what
> she's expressing is a fantasy or wish to be free, an inability to voice
> her true needs to her mate, and a lot of uncommunicated hostility," says
> Rick Tivers, a clinical social worker for the Centre for Divorce Recovery
> in Northbrook, Ill.
"When Jack the Ripper wrote, 'I'm down on whores and shan't quit
ripping them until I do get buckled', what he was expressing was a
fantasy or wish that the streets of Whitechapel would be free of
sexual license, an inability to voice his true needs to the
authorities, and a lot of heretofore uncommunicated hostility," said
Giant Attitude, another self-appointed media mutt expert.
> Dr. Beth Haverkamp, associate professor of counselling psychology at the
> University of British Columbia, notes: "One of the effects of our
> burgeoning self-help culture -- where you've got Oprah and countless
> magazines telling you to leave a relationship if you're not happy -- is
> that women's expectations of what a marriage should be have risen. While
> there may have been more stigma attached to divorce in the 1950s and '60s,
> I think people's expectations for marriage were much lower back then."
>
> "Everyone getting married wants the fairy tale. That's as true today as it
> ever was. But when our expectations aren't matched we feel dissatisfied,"
> says Haverkamp. "However, when a woman says life would be so much easier
> if her husband died it makes me wonder about her past experiences in
> making decisions for herself. Leaving a marriage involves both an
> emotional dimension and a skill dimension, and decision-making is a skill.
> If you haven't had experience doing it, then leaving a marriage and being
> responsible for your own life will seem terribly frightening."
>
> As Tivers adds, "Ultimately, when a woman sees her husband's death as the
> only way out, the real issue is about taking responsibility for their
> lives and what they want from it. But for some women it's hard to do.
> Staying in a marriage is like extending their adolescents. Divorce means
> growing up."
This isn't perfect, but it makes a little more sense than what's
included in the rest of the article.
But don't worry; this brief ray of common sense isn't allowed to last
long.
> However, blaming a woman for staying in a loveless marriage, let alone
> silently sitting by wishing for their husband's death, isn't fair either.
*Of course not* Perish the thought!
> "Separating yourself and making the decision to leave is not easy,
> especially if you've 15 or 20 years invested in a marriage," says Gwen
> Vernon, project co-ordinator for New Directions, a 16-year-old,
> Toronto-based self-help support service for separated and divorced women.
> "But we do hear women say things would be easier if their husbands were
> dead, largely because they don't want to deal with him or the mess of
> divorce and support payments."
Like the "support payments" are likely to be going from HER to HIM.
> And as Barbara Kilbourn, New Directions
> executive director, adds, "It's hard to find your voice if you've been
> silent and controlled for years."
Oh, this is too much! The wife is "silent and controlled"?
Man and woman are married for years; which spouse does the most
talking? Which spouse is most afraid of the other spouse's
disapproval?
> "Calling these women cowards is cruel.
This is just too much!
> Not every woman has the privilege
> of coming from a strong family who would support her decision to leave,"
> says Toronto therapist Diane Aiken. "But when a woman sees her husband's
> death as the only solution a lot of things are going on in her mind. She
> may be afraid of dying, especially if she leaves a physically abusive
> mate. In a lesser sense, where the abuse is verbal or emotional, she may
> fear her husband's response when she says I want out. It depends on the
> culture she is from and how's she's been socialized.
I can't take much more of this.
> "I divorced my first husband 15 years ago. But when we got married he
> wanted me to have five kids right away. I wanted to wait and further my
> education. His response was 'We only have enough money for one of us to do
> that. Naturally it's going to be me.' My dream was squashed. Many women's
> dreams get squashed much the same way. But that's what living under such
> controlling conditions will do. It compromises your life and your identity.
Should have resolved those issues before getting married.
Lu-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-ucy, you can't be in de show and dat's final!
Oh, you Cuban heel!
Never mine about my accent!
> "That's why," says Aikens, "If I hear a woman wish for her husband's death
> I'll say 'OK, tell me what you'd do if it really happened.
Yeah, THAT'll discourage her from murder.
> Tell me what's
> standing in the way of you doing these things now. More importantly, tell
> me who you were before you got married.' "
"Why, I was as free as a bird and unencumbered by any gross male
presence. That's what you want me to say, isn't it?"
> Says Vernon, "If a woman feels such despair and entrapment, it's important
> to remember this: You willingly gave up a lot to go into the marriage. You
> need to have that mindset again. You have to think, 'I managed before I
> got married, so I could do that again if I had to.' Maybe I won't have as
> much money, but it's mine. I can control my dreams and future. I can
> reclaim my life."
>
> Lohwinow couldn't agree more. "I left a bad marriage, so I know how hard
> it can be. While I can't relate to wanting my partner dead and seeing that
> as the only way I could move on, I can understand these women's desperate
> feelings.
Of course. Only a gross clod would fail to understand them.
In this society, getting married is easy. Getting out of it can
> seem worse than death, and many women see countless hardships waiting for
> them before they've set one foot out the door."
>
> But, she says, "The one big lesson I've learned from reading all these
> women is this: If there's a will, there's a way. If you feel the universe
> will give you a door to open and extract yourself from a bad marriage, it
> will."
Anyone who ISN'T a misogynist in today's world is CRAZY!
Scott Gilbert
> What if my husband died?: Women in bad marriages can see it as the only
> way out
>
>
> Constance Droganes
> National Post
>
> Call it a dirty little secret. Something you're loath to admit to your
> mother, best friend, even a priest. But there it is in the back of your
> mind -- a numbing resignation that your life would be far better off if
> your husband just died.
[snip]
> "Calling these women cowards is cruel.
Yet wishing for the death of another person so that you can
appropriate his posessions is not? How clearly this demonstrates the
moral bankruptcy of feminism. Even when women are cowardly and cruel,
feminists still look for a man to blame.
Parg2000
>From: scot...@my-deja.com (Scott Gilbert)
>Date: 1/23/02 3:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <e4946d4b.02012...@posting.google.com>
>
>ao...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Gilman) wrote in message
>news:<a2mma3$fsu$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>...
>> A drastic escape route
>> What if my husband died?: Women in bad marriages can see it as the only
>> way out
>>
>>
>> Constance Droganes
>> National Post
>>
>> Call it a dirty little secret. Something you're loath to admit to your
>> mother, best friend, even a priest. But there it is in the back of your
>> mind -- a numbing resignation that your life would be far better off if
>> your husband just died.
{Parg} My wise old grandmammy told me that there were two times in her life
she was free, the first time when her father died, and the second when her
husband died. Of course, times have changed since then and women today are
only beholden to their parents until the age of 18 and one need not marry.
>
>[snip]
>
>> "Calling these women cowards is cruel.
>
>Yet wishing for the death of another person so that you can>appropriate his
posessions is not?
{Parg} Gaining control over ones own money was more the soup de jour. In my
grandmother's time, men still held legal control over the process. That
actually changed on paper, by law, in her own lifetime, but the reality of the
situation was difficult to harness.
<G> Today's women don't need to wish men dead as often or for so many reasons.
<G>
How clearly this demonstrates the
>moral bankruptcy of feminism.
{Parg} Well, there's no particular moral bankruptchy attached to wishing a
tyrant dead. Any mans who seeks control over his wife, is probably a man who
cannot control himself.
Even when women are cowardly and cruel,
>feminists still look for a man to blame.
{Parg} Oh pshaw! Whatever makes you think women wishing control over their
OWN lives "cowardly" or "cruel"? > As my wise old grandmammy used to say,
"time heals all wounds, and wounds all heels". <G>
>
>
>
>
>
Jessy.five.sixty.three
"Scott Gilbert" <scot...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:e4946d4b.02012...@posting.google.com...
Applause! The article should be tittled, 'Canadian Media Advocates Killing
of Husbands' IMO.
Deborah Terreson
----------
In article <ea45e5bb.02012...@posting.google.com>,
gianta...@my-deja.com (Giant Attitude) wrote:
Men want pussy. Welcome to the loony bin.
Deb.
Jessy.five.sixty.three
"Deborah Terreson" <foodNOTS...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:j6I38.31022$Ln2.7...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
I don't think we want it at that price.
Jessy
Frost
> >Subject: Re: Wishing their husbands would die.
> >From: scot...@my-deja.com (Scott Gilbert)
> >Date: 1/23/02 3:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <e4946d4b.02012...@posting.google.com>
> >
> >ao...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Gilman) wrote in message
> >news:<a2mma3$fsu$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>...
> >> A drastic escape route
> >> What if my husband died?: Women in bad marriages can see it as the only
> >> way out
> >>
> >>
> >> Constance Droganes
> >> National Post
> >>
> >> Call it a dirty little secret. Something you're loath to admit to your
> >> mother, best friend, even a priest. But there it is in the back of your
> >> mind -- a numbing resignation that your life would be far better off if
> >> your husband just died.
>
> {Parg} My wise old grandmammy told me that there were two times in her life
> she was free, the first time when her father died, and the second when her
> husband died. Of course, times have changed since then and women today are
> only beholden to their parents until the age of 18 and one need not marry.
Gee, and feminists aren't against men or het relationships? You are
so fucking sick Parg it isn't funny, one bit!
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> "Calling these women cowards is cruel.
> >
> >Yet wishing for the death of another person so that you can>appropriate his
> posessions is not?
>
> {Parg} Gaining control over ones own money was more the soup de jour. In my
> grandmother's time, men still held legal control over the process. That
> actually changed on paper, by law, in her own lifetime, but the reality of the
> situation was difficult to harness.
> <G> Today's women don't need to wish men dead as often or for so many reasons.
> <G>
No, we have feminists for that.
> How clearly this demonstrates the
> >moral bankruptcy of feminism.
>
> {Parg} Well, there's no particular moral bankruptchy attached to wishing a
> tyrant dead.
Do the leading heads of Feminism count? I'm game.
> Any mans
Uh, either man or men, Parg. :)
> who seeks control over his wife, is probably a man who
> cannot control himself.
Who gives you the right to decide who lives and dies? You are the
most amoral person I've come across, in RL or Usenet, Parg.
>
> Even when women are cowardly and cruel,
> >feminists still look for a man to blame.
>
> {Parg} Oh pshaw! Whatever makes you think women wishing control over their
> OWN lives "cowardly" or "cruel"?
When the supposed independant women chatter of there being no moral
bankrupcy of wishing a *tyrant* dead. If a woman wants to be
independant that's fine. But as usual your twisted, poisoned soul
shows through, Parg.
> As my wise old grandmammy used to say,
> "time heals all wounds, and wounds all heels". <G>
Let me use mine to smash your collective faces in. You're sick.
Parg2000
>Date: 1/23/02 9:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <88cb7a49.02012...@posting.google.com>
>
>parg...@cs.com (Parg2000) wrote in message
>news:<20020123185248...@mb-cp.news.cs.com>...
>> >Subject: Re: Wishing their husbands would die.
>> >From: scot...@my-deja.com (Scott Gilbert)
>> >Date: 1/23/02 3:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <e4946d4b.02012...@posting.google.com>
>> >
>> >ao...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Gilman) wrote in message
>> >news:<a2mma3$fsu$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>...
>> >> A drastic escape route
>> >> What if my husband died?: Women in bad marriages can see it as the only
>> >> way out
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Constance Droganes
>> >> National Post
>> >>
>> >> Call it a dirty little secret. Something you're loath to admit to your
>> >> mother, best friend, even a priest. But there it is in the back of your
>> >> mind -- a numbing resignation that your life would be far better off if
>> >> your husband just died.
>>
>> {Parg} My wise old grandmammy told me that there were two times in her
>life
>> she was free, the first time when her father died, and the second when her
>> husband died. Of course, times have changed since then and women today are
>> only beholden to their parents until the age of 18 and one need not marry.
>
>Gee, and feminists aren't against men or het relationships? You are
>so fucking sick Parg it isn't funny, one bit!
{Parg} Why shoot the messenger? My Grandmammy lived in time when men had
control over women's lives. With that kind of control slipping away, women of
today have no need to wish their husbands dead.
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >> "Calling these women cowards is cruel.
>> >
>> >Yet wishing for the death of another person so that you can>appropriate
>his>> posessions is not?
>>
>> {Parg} Gaining control over ones own money was more the soup de jour. In
>my>> grandmother's time, men still held legal control over the process. That
>> actually changed on paper, by law, in her own lifetime, but the reality of
>the>> situation was difficult to harness.
>> <G> Today's women don't need to wish men dead as often or for so many
>reasons.
>> <G>
>
>No, we have feminists for that.
>
{Parg} Feminists have no reason to wish men dead either. THEY have control
over their own lives and those who CAN control themselves have little need to
control others.
>
>> How clearly this demonstrates the
>> >moral bankruptcy of feminism.
>>
>> {Parg} Well, there's no particular moral bankruptchy attached to wishing a
>> tyrant dead.
>
>Do the leading heads of Feminism count? I'm game.
{Parg} Wish away, dear. It's one of the last bastians of 'control' that is
left you. <G>
>
>> Any mans
>
>Uh, either man or men, Parg. :)
{Parg} 'Slippage' must be like shrinkage to you, eh? <G>
>
>> who seeks control over his wife, is probably a man who
>> cannot control himself.
>
>Who gives you the right to decide who lives and dies?
{Parg} I thought we were discussing WISHING and HOPING? <g>
You are the>most amoral person I've come across, in RL or Usenet, Parg.
>
{Parg} Denigration alone? Shameful!
>>
>> Even when women are cowardly and cruel,>> >feminists still look for a man
to blame.
>>
>> {Parg} Oh pshaw! Whatever makes you think women wishing control over
>their>> OWN lives "cowardly" or "cruel"?
>
>When the supposed independant women chatter of there being no moral>bankrupcy
of wishing a *tyrant* dead. If a woman wants to be>independant that's fine.
But as usual your twisted, poisoned soul shows through, Parg.
>
{Parg} More denigration alone?
> > As my wise old grandmammy used to say,
>> "time heals all wounds, and wounds all heels". <G>
>
>Let me use mine to smash your collective faces in. You're sick.
{Parg} Poor bitter boy without a bat! Denigration is all that's left him.
>
>
>
>
>
>