Legend of the Minoans 'is a racist myth'
Farhan Siddiqui
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/07/23/stinwenws02008.html
Sir Arthur Evans, accused of racism and
'interpretation' in his work
Legend of the Minoans 'is a racist myth'
Adam Luck
THE father of modern archeology was allegedly a closet homosexual
whose racism helped to shape and perpetuate the myth of the Minotaur,
one of the ancient world's most enduring legends.
This is the startling theory at the heart of a new book about Sir
Arthur Evans, the Victorian scholar, and his discovery of the palace
of King Minos during his landmark excavations at Knossos, in Crete.
In his book Minotaur: Sir Arthur Evans and the Archeology of the
Minoan Myth, Sandy MacGillivray, an established Canadian archeologist,
argues that millions of tourists - as well as his fellow diggers -
have been wrongly held in the thrall of Evans for too long.
MacGillivray claims that the Minoans, the Bronze Age Cretans uncovered
by Evans's excavations, are largely the creation of his Victorian
mind.
The colourful Greek story of the Minotaur - the monstrous half-man,
half-bull offspring of Pasiphae, the wife of King Minos, and the Greek
god Zeus, - has been told for centuries. According to legend, the
Minotaur was kept in a labyrinth, where he was fed on an annual
tribute of seven Athenian youths and maidens. When Ariadne, the Cretan
princess, had the clever idea of leaving a trail of twine, Theseus
managed to slay the beast.
The maze was designed by Daedalus who, with his son Icarus, we credit
with the earliest recorded air flight as they escaped the wrath of
Minos on wings of beeswax and feathers.
However, when Evans claimed that his excavations, uncovered exactly
100 years ago, were the palace of Minos, the myth began to take on the
shape of historical reality.
Evans, who said he went to Crete to find "the truth behind the
legend", believed that Minos was a real historical figure and
propagated his theory of a peace-loving Minoan civilisation that
dominated the Aegean in the second millennium BC.
These beliefs have helped to make Crete one of Europe's key
archeological sites.
MacGillivray argues that the ruins, which attract 1m visitors a year,
represent only Evans's "interpretation" of the Minoan culture. He
argues that the labyrinth and palace, which Evans "rebuilt", are
fanciful reconstructions to support his vision of the Minoans.
MacGillivray, whose book will be published next month, said: "We
should look at the site as an early 20th-century interpretation of
Minoan culture rather than historical fact.
The palace of Minos was allegedly reconstructed
to fit Evan's fanciful vision of Minoan culture
Photograph: Mary Evans
"He took apart the existing walls and built them up. It was a very
Victorian theme; he wanted to rebuild it but in so doing make it even
better."
Evans allegedly doctored the evidence to fit his theories and either
ignored or suppressed contradictory material. For example,
MacGillivray believes that the Minoans were a significant civilisation
who held sway over the Aegean but existed in the shadow of the Syrian,
Egyptian and Anatolian empires. He says Evans ignored proof of the
Minoans' military achievements because it did not tally with his
concept of a pacific matriarchal society: "Evans spotted the
fortresses but then forgot about those after he went to Knossos in
1900."
Convinced that Crete provided the foundations of European
civilisation, Evans also dismissed other races as inferior and worthy
of "extermination".
MacGillivray said: "Evans found what he wanted to find. He wanted to
link ancient Crete with modern Greece and modern Europe and that is
why he ignored links with other non- European cultures. It was the
Aryan myth. Evans was one of its greatest exponents."
Evans, who had arrived in Crete when the islanders were struggling to
become free from Turkish imperialism, wrote his own version of Minoan
history, expunging outside influences.
MacGillivray also contends that Evans's creative drive stemmed from
his suppressed homosexuality. Later in life Evans was convicted of
gross indecency. "People with closet tendencies, things to hide, would
often go abroad to satisfy themselves. It gave them their energy,"
said MacGallivray.
His assault has provoked the ire of the archeological establishment.
Peter Warren, professor of ancient history and classical archeology at
Bristol University, labelled his claims as "absurd". "The points are
simply not there to substantiate his arguments," he said. "Evans was a
man of his times but that did not mean that he shaped the evidence to
fit his theories. Nor does it mean he was racist. Quite the opposite;
a lot of people believe he overplayed the influence of the Egyptians."
Yannis Tzedakis, the former director-general of antiquities in Greece,
said: "One must not forget that the Palace of King Minos is
magnificent in its own right and rightly still attracts the interest
of both archeologists and tourists alike."
Aggie-Tom
"Farhan Siddiqui" <farhan_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:397b453a.14619521@news...
> July 23 2000 BRITAIN
>
>
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/07/23/stinwenws02008.html
>
>
> Sir Arthur Evans, accused of racism and
> 'interpretation' in his work
>
> Legend of the Minoans 'is a racist myth'
> Adam Luck
>
> his suppressed homosexuality. Later in life Evans was convicted of
> gross indecency. "People with closet tendencies, things to hide, would
> often go abroad to satisfy themselves. It gave them their energy,"
> said MacGallivray.
So MacGillivray is basically a Homophobic Bigot. Talk about Kettles and
Pots.
ADR
article that rightfully acknowledges that Evans invented much of Minoan
history and was one of the founders of Aryan racial theory and yet you also
fall for all the same nonsense invented by Evans and other contemporary
scholars by posting stupid articles containing nothing but complete drivel
about Indra and Aryan races.
Pete Barrett
nothing in this, as far as I can see, that hasn't been known for
years. I read a book a few years back (date of publication was late
80s, I think, but I can't remember any more details, except that it
had a yellow cover!), which covered all this in a semi-popular
fashion.
The attack on Evans himself is another matter - he'd better have some
evidence if he's going to accuse him of fabricating evidence. It's a
particularly easy charge to make, since any scholar will make
mistakes, and it would be almost impossible to prove they weren't
deliberate falsifications.
Pete Barrett
ADR
> The attack on Evans himself is another matter - he'd better have some
> evidence if he's going to accuse him of fabricating evidence.
It's easy to accuse someone of fabricating evidence. If the evidence doesn't
exist, then it's fabricated. Everything to do with this alleged
Indo-Europeans from the Caucasus (or take your pick) or the Aryan invasion
on India or Aryans from Atlantis and so on was competely invented and is
still perpetrated by blind racists. The evidence for them being fabrications
is in the complete lack of mythological, archaeological or historical
evidence for them in ancient times. With regard to Evans and his ilk, they
literally created things out of thin air and by completely disregarding
evidence and creating evidence from the ground up.
Lector Priest
Brian McLaughlin
|> Crete was just a trade center between Egypt and the rest of the Med.
Well, that settles it for me.
--
Brian McLaughlin, Technical Writer |"Thanks to the Internet, misinformation
Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.| now travels faster than ever before!"
Beaverton, OR, USA | ---- Standard disclaimer applies ----
ADR
"Lector Priest" <kur...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8lidvu$28b$2...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> Crete was just a trade center between Egypt and the rest of the Med.
Of which there wasn't much at the time. Nearly all the trade was occuring
between Egypt, Anatolian Med, Mesopotamia and India. The rest of the Med was
there to be secretly exploited by voyagers from Egypt, Palestine and others.
It was their New World.
Lector Priest
> > Crete was just a trade center between Egypt and the rest of the Med.
>
> Of which there wasn't much at the time. Nearly all the trade was occuring
> between Egypt, Anatolian Med, Mesopotamia and India. The rest of the Med
was
> there to be secretly exploited by voyagers from Egypt, Palestine and
others.
> It was their New World.
I still wish to know if the people of Crete were Egyptians, Greeks or a
combination of the two. It seems more like they were a combination.
Neville Lindsay
To try to begin to answer your query, their Linear B script seems to use
Greek words, and their pottery and some other artefacts seem similar to
Mycenaean examples, so if Greek = Greek culture, they were Greek. Then 12 C
BCE the Dorians begin to appear, so this would reinforce the Greekness.
Greek artefacts were heavily influenced early on by Egypt, so any
combination of the two is obviously borrowing. Are there any advances on
this?
NL
ADR
> To try to begin to answer your query, their Linear B script seems to use
> Greek words,
Later Greek uses words derived from Cretan.
>and their pottery and some other artefacts seem similar to
> Mycenaean examples, so if Greek = Greek culture, they were Greek.
Pottery styles are not exclusive to a single people. Greeks didn't get their
architecture or mythology from the Cretans did they? What about their
writing system? Not Cretan either. They were not Greek. You're basically
saying the same thing as saying ancient Britons were English.
Neville Lindsay
"ADR" <a.dall...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:IIbf5.8521$yE4.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
>
> > To try to begin to answer your query, their Linear B script seems to use
> > Greek words,
>
> Later Greek uses words derived from Cretan.
>
Linear B is found simultaneously in Crete, Pylos, Mycenae and Thebes - it is
the script of Mycenaean Greece, and so Greek language of 14-13C BCE.
>
> >and their pottery and some other artefacts seem similar to
> > Mycenaean examples, so if Greek = Greek culture, they were Greek.
>
> Pottery styles are not exclusive to a single people.
The painting of them is usually quite distinctive.
> Greeks didn't get their
> architecture or mythology from the Cretans did they?
How then do we account for Cretan Zeus, Chronos etc, and the similarity of
some archetactural styles throughout the area of Mycenaean influence - Crete
and mainland Greece?
> What about their
> writing system? Not Cretan either.
Linear A certainly not. Probably IE invaders/settlers from Anatolia.
Linear B examples appear in Crete a bit before their provenance in Messenia,
the Argolid and Aeolia, so there is indeed some chance that their writing
system did come from there. On the other hand, the Hellenisation of Crete
indicates some reverse traffic.
> They were not Greek.
The original inhabitants no, IE (?) asiatics - but they seem to have been
overtaken by Greeks 13(?) C BCE.
> You're basically
> saying the same thing as saying ancient Britons were English.
>
Which period are you talking about - and pushing your Indus is good, Greek
is bad theme? I put up a bit of basic information, hoping others could build
on it. Do you have something to add to help answer Lector's question, or
just be negative and take the opportunity to push your discredited barrow
again?
NL
nobody nowhere
Lindsay <nev...@bigpond.net.au> writes
>
>"Lector Priest" <kur...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:8livn9$rdr$3...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
>>
>> > > Crete was just a trade center between Egypt and the rest of the Med.
>> >
>> > Of which there wasn't much at the time. Nearly all the trade was
>occuring
>> > between Egypt, Anatolian Med, Mesopotamia and India. The rest of the Med
>> was
>> > there to be secretly exploited by voyagers from Egypt, Palestine and
>> others.
>> > It was their New World.
>>
>> I still wish to know if the people of Crete were Egyptians, Greeks or a
>> combination of the two. It seems more like they were a combination.
>>
>
>Mycenaean examples, so if Greek = Greek culture, they were Greek. Then 12 C
>BCE the Dorians begin to appear, so this would reinforce the Greekness.
>Greek artefacts were heavily influenced early on by Egypt, so any
>combination of the two is obviously borrowing. Are there any advances on
>this?
>
>NL
>
>
This is from a "pocket book" book (1973, so beware!...), which rightly
or wrongly, received a prize from the French Academy, no less:
"For the last 60 years, all the anthropologists, ethnologists, and
craniologists agree to reject A Evans' entirely "literary" thesis
according to which Neolithic Crete had been colonized by peoples coming
from North Africa, Egypt, and Libya."
The author advocates a very early mixture of races and populations
(surprise, surprise): "these invasions include peoples from both sides
of the Aegean, ie Greeks and non-Greeks (Hellenes et Prehellenes, in
French). the first would be Pelasgians (non-Greek, but, according to
some, Indo-Europeans, according to others, Anatolians). He also refers
to Diodore who mentions non-Greek speaking "barbares" Lydienes, Cariens,
Lyciens. some of the earliest inhabitants, according to him came from
the Marmara sea region. He attributes the ancient Minoan culture to West
Anatolians. If the Dorians were tall and blond, the author does not
recognize many of them amongst the Cretan population, believe it or not
(apparently the archaeological finds do not show this type in sufficient
numbers).
Things get more confusing, if one accepts the author's thesis that at no
time during the relevant periods could the population of Crete have
exceeded 300,000.-individuals.
Anyway, by 1400 BC, of course, Crete is finally conquered by the Achaean
Greeks (there was a 1st wave of Ionians in 1950, but apparently they
could not be bothered to stay). Does this make the Cretans "Greek"?
As the French say, "va savoir"...
So, I am forced to give an ADR (you know who I mean ... :-))type of
answer: "the *people* of Crete were... Cretans", who at some point after
1400 began to speak the language of their conquerors, which eventually
became what *we* call Greek.
--
nobody nowhere
ADR
is
> the script of Mycenaean Greece, and so Greek language of 14-13C BCE.
It is Mycenean and not Greek.
> How then do we account for Cretan Zeus, Chronos etc, and the similarity of
> some archetactural styles throughout the area of Mycenaean influence -
Crete
> and mainland Greece?
Sorry, this shows your limits. Myths of Zeus are as similar to myths of Ptah
or Enlil just as Odysses has it's derivations of Gilgamesh. Or are you going
to draw a picture of ancient Crete that is unverifiable and untrue like
Evans did?
>
> > What about their
> > writing system? Not Cretan either.
>
> Linear A certainly not. Probably IE invaders/settlers from Anatolia.
I'm talking about Greek writing if you didn't realise. Why is it derived
from Phoenician? And you can forget about your IE invaders. Don't paint
ancient history with the brush of western imperialism. Inventing an ancient
IE people who invaded others was a pretty way for those British, French and
Portugese bastards to claim they were not doing anything that hadn't been
done before. In fact, they were. And the result of this tampering with
history was also the Nazis. Why the IE myth still persists is because the
British/Western establishment does not want to take the blame for creating
the Nazi ideology and they still want this myth to supress the pride of
Asian peoples.
ADR
> So, I am forced to give an ADR (you know who I mean ... :-))type of
> answer: "the *people* of Crete were... Cretans", who at some point after
> 1400 began to speak the language of their conquerors, which eventually
> became what *we* call Greek.
Exactly.
ADR
> Given the number of invasions throughout Hellas' history it would be
> impossible to draw a direct line back to the original Hellenes. Each
invader
> came, liked what they saw and stayed around. Simple as that.
Exactly.
> A true Hellene has no need of geneaology because it is not relevant to the
> Hellene question.
Exactly.
Myros Pimenakis
Aggie-Tom wrote:
>
> "Farhan Siddiqui" <farhan_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:397b453a.14619521@news...
> > July 23 2000 BRITAIN
> >
> >
> http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/07/23/stinwenws02008.html
> >
> >
> > Sir Arthur Evans, accused of racism and
> > 'interpretation' in his work
> >
> > Legend of the Minoans 'is a racist myth'
> > Adam Luck
> >
> > MacGillivray also contends that Evans's creative drive stemmed from
> > his suppressed homosexuality. Later in life Evans was convicted of
> > gross indecency. "People with closet tendencies, things to hide, would
> > often go abroad to satisfy themselves. It gave them their energy,"
> > said MacGallivray.
>
> So MacGillivray is basically a Homophobic Bigot. Talk about Kettles and
> Pots.
No Aggie. He is just another one who tries to dismiss Evan's work because he disagrees with Evan's theories. But just like the others he is attacking Evans
without giving at the same time a better theory. It happened many times so far. They all blame Evans for rebuilding parts of the palace of Knossos in the wrong (according
to them) way, but NONE had ever given so far an alternative.
MSP
ADR
wrong (according
> to them) way, but NONE had ever given so far an alternative.
They don't have to give an alternative to challenge Evans. Evans created his
own version of Minoan architecture, he created the vision of a King Minos
and his palace that didn't exist before. Now a million people a year go to
visit a palace of King Minos which is really just a rubble that has nothing
linking it to Greek mythology. But even funnier are the Christians who walk
around Jerusalem with a cross. You can do Goa by motorbike, Tuscany on a
scooter or you can do Jerusalem by cross. Crete is nothing in comparison to
what goes on in Palestine and Israel. There are people who visit a cave made
of white rock and literally eat the stone because they think it turned white
when Mary breastfed Jesus for the first time and they believe that eating
the rocks can heal you. Pagans.
Pete Barrett
<stal...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote:
>Not choosing sides, but as a modern Greek Australian who has had some
>exposure to the classics I have to say that all these efforts to prove
>Greeks looked one way or another or descended from one group or another are
>feeble attempts to somehow associate those brilliant individuals with your
>particular ethnic group or even world view.
>
>Forget it.
>
>Hellenism is and always has been a cultural phenomenon with no basis in
>race.
>
>This is why it endured as long as it did and survives to this day.
>
>Given the number of invasions throughout Hellas' history it would be
>impossible to draw a direct line back to the original Hellenes. Each invader
>came, liked what they saw and stayed around. Simple as that.
>
>Hellenic culture assimilated all comers.
>You simply had to follow the Greek way of life to be a Greek.
>Any modern Greek who tells you otherwise doesn't know what a true Hellene
>is.
>
>This is what most people, predictably, fail to grasp.
>Only someone who has experienced Greek culture from the "inside" can even
>hope to understand the significance of it.
>
>A true Hellene has no need of geneaology because it is not relevant to the
>Hellene question.
>
I've understood that the rules for participation in the Olympic Games
had something to do with being Greek by blood, rather than by culture.
The Macedonians (or at least the kings) were considered Greek for
these purposes, and later the Romans were allowed to participate
without even the decency of a fictitious Greek ancestry - bowing to
the inevitable, I suppose.
Is this wrong?
Pete Barrett
Lector Priest
their
> architecture or mythology from the Cretans did they? What about their
> writing system? Not Cretan either. They were not Greek. You're basically
> saying the same thing as saying ancient Britons were English.
The Columns of Crete appear to mimic Egyptian style columns in my book.
Greek columns appear to be a mimicry of the Cretan columns. Look at the
artwork at the bottoms and tops of the columns to see what I am talking
about.
I find it funny that one of the architectual traits most attributed to
Greeks is really an extension of an older, foreign tradition.
Lector Priest
> some archetactural styles throughout the area of Mycenaean influence -
Crete
> and mainland Greece?
Zeus overthrew Chronos. Perhaps that is an echo of Greeks taking over Crete
and their gods becoming dominant to the native ones.
ADR
> descend to political arguments. Why should we believe you when you so
> obviously have an axe to grind?
Didn't ask you to believe me but Evans did believe in the Aryan race and
made his contribution to it.
ADR
> The Columns of Crete appear to mimic Egyptian style columns in my book.
> Greek columns appear to be a mimicry of the Cretan columns. Look at the
> artwork at the bottoms and tops of the columns to see what I am talking
> about.
And you'll notice something else. You'll notice that the one thing the
Greeks could not mimick from the Egypt was the pyramids. And then you'll
notice that neo-something writers publish books that say:
-The Egyptian did not build their pyramids. It was a white race from
Atlantis (which according to them is the Antartic or an exploded planet).
-Black people were engineered by light aliens to work as slaves.
-In ancient times a secret white group of people civilised the world.
I'll go ahead and mention Hancock and Alford as people writing such books.
Lector Priest
Even assholes can back things that might be true.
Lector Priest
> > Greek columns appear to be a mimicry of the Cretan columns. Look at the
> > artwork at the bottoms and tops of the columns to see what I am talking
> > about.
>
>
> And you'll notice something else. You'll notice that the one thing the
> Greeks could not mimick from the Egypt was the pyramids.
Is it that the Greeks couldn't mimic the Pyramids or didn't want to mimic
them? Perhaps it was not their style? Perhaps they could not make use of it?
> And then you'll notice that neo-something writers publish books that say:
>
>
> -The Egyptian did not build their pyramids. It was a white race from
> Atlantis (which according to them is the Antartic or an exploded planet).
> -Black people were engineered by light aliens to work as slaves.
> -In ancient times a secret white group of people civilised the world.
>
> I'll go ahead and mention Hancock and Alford as people writing such books.
Depends on how hard you believe......
Lector Priest
> You simply had to follow the Greek way of life to be a Greek.
> Any modern Greek who tells you otherwise doesn't know what a true Hellene
> is.
Good point.
Lector Priest
Basically the same scenario as the Gallo-Romans?
Steve T
exposure to the classics I have to say that all these efforts to prove
Greeks looked one way or another or descended from one group or another are
feeble attempts to somehow associate those brilliant individuals with your
particular ethnic group or even world view.
Forget it.
Hellenism is and always has been a cultural phenomenon with no basis in
race.
This is why it endured as long as it did and survives to this day.
Given the number of invasions throughout Hellas' history it would be
impossible to draw a direct line back to the original Hellenes. Each invader
came, liked what they saw and stayed around. Simple as that.
Hellenic culture assimilated all comers.
This is what most people, predictably, fail to grasp.
Only someone who has experienced Greek culture from the "inside" can even
hope to understand the significance of it.
A true Hellene has no need of geneaology because it is not relevant to the
Hellene question.
This is not something I have been taught as a Greek, it has become apparent
to me as I have matured (regardless of what history books say, mostly
writings and translations by non-Greeks).
Does it seem odd that such astute individuals were repeatedly conquered so
easily and by so many different groups?
The answer is simple.
They knew that it didn't matter all that much if they were over-run as long
as they maintained their way of life, in the true spirit of hospitality
(believe it or leave it).
They therefore only violently resisted groups who posed a serious threat to
this lifestyle ie Persians, Turks etc. while easily yielding to the likes of
Macedonia (already Hellenistic if not Hellenic) and Rome.
Remember, the Roman Empire was Roman in name but Hellenistic in spirit.
Voyager
Very good post Steve !!!!!!!!
You approach very well the issue !!!!!!!
There were many cultures in this world but none as the Greek.
People think that they know a lot about the Greek culture but
they realy don't.
The base of everything in the world's culture is totaly Greek.
And remember that all we have from the Greek antiquity it's
only the 3%.
Voyager.
Steve T wrote
Steve T
"Pete Barrett" <pe...@platypus.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:q6urnss0jf1vnqdof...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:22:42 +1000, "Steve T"
> had something to do with being Greek by blood, rather than by culture.
> The Macedonians (or at least the kings) were considered Greek for
> these purposes, and later the Romans were allowed to participate
> without even the decency of a fictitious Greek ancestry - bowing to
> the inevitable, I suppose.
>
> Is this wrong?
>
>
>
> Pete Barrett
IMHO Yes? Just another misinterpretation.(just like the one about
homosexuality-it could've been interpreted as deep affection, without the
sexual connotation)
Like you I have to take the word of translators and historians.
I would genuinely like to read every piece of Hellenic literature so I can
also be clearer on the subject, but frankly what they wrote and what we read
aren't necessarily identical (again IMHO).
According to the translator of Aristotle's Politics (Penguin) the
"seperation of powers" is not a Hellenic idea, just some sort of coincidence
or a more primitive formulation. HA! (how can I trust these people, who are
obviously biased)
However, as often as I hear it stated it never ceases to amuse me.
BTW
Did they have blood tests to determine a true Hellene?
Was it by way of consensus?
Was it judged on the way one looked?
Was it based on ideology?
How did one prove ones Hellenism?
I also have to take issue with your assuming all Hellenic culture stemmed
from Classical Hellas.
As I tried to state, there's more to Hellenism than the Classical period
(both before and after).
Roman society was after all a "Hellenistic" society and the language did
survive throughout the Eastern Roman empire for a thousand years after
mighty Rome(the city) was a mere memory.
"Mighty Rome played general to tiny Greece" (or something along those lines)
immediately springs to mind for some reason.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>I'm talking about Greek writing if you didn't realise. Why is it derived
>from Phoenician? And you can forget about your IE invaders. Don't paint
>ancient history with the brush of western imperialism. Inventing an ancient
>IE people who invaded others was a pretty way for those British, French and
>Portugese bastards to claim they were not doing anything that hadn't been
>done before. In fact, they were. And the result of this tampering with
>history was also the Nazis. Why the IE myth still persists is because the
>British/Western establishment does not want to take the blame for creating
>the Nazi ideology and they still want this myth to supress the pride of
>Asian peoples.
I find it depressing when people hold that political arguments should
control the search for historical truths.
I find it equally depressing when, rather than supporting your
arguments with the even a summary of the facts of the matter, you
descend to political arguments. Why should we believe you when you so
obviously have an axe to grind?
Eric Stevens
There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don't. I belong to the second class.
nobody nowhere
T <stal...@dingoblue.net.au> writes
>Not choosing sides, but as a modern Greek Australian who has had some
>exposure to the classics I have to say that all these efforts to prove
>Greeks looked one way or another or descended from one group or another are
>feeble attempts to somehow associate those brilliant individuals with your
>particular ethnic group or even world view.
Agreed. There is a particular disgusting passage in nazi Heidegger
which, unless I misunderstood it, says that Greek thought "belongs to
the land of the evening" das land des abends, in other words to the
fantastish german volk. (Incidentally, if any one, who is "in the
business" ie is familiar with this works, thinks that I have got it
wrong on Heidy, please say so!)
>
>Forget it.
>
>Hellenism is and always has been a cultural phenomenon with no basis in
>race.
>
>This is why it endured as long as it did and survives to this day.
>
>Given the number of invasions throughout Hellas' history it would be
>impossible to draw a direct line back to the original Hellenes. Each invader
>came, liked what they saw and stayed around. Simple as that.
>
>Hellenic culture assimilated all comers.
>You simply had to follow the Greek way of life to be a Greek.
>Any modern Greek who tells you otherwise doesn't know what a true Hellene
>is.
>
>This is what most people, predictably, fail to grasp.
>Only someone who has experienced Greek culture from the "inside" can even
>hope to understand the significance of it.
>
>A true Hellene has no need of geneaology because it is not relevant to the
>Hellene question.
>
>This is not something I have been taught as a Greek, it has become apparent
>to me as I have matured (regardless of what history books say, mostly
>writings and translations by non-Greeks).
>
>Does it seem odd that such astute individuals were repeatedly conquered so
>easily and by so many different groups?
>
>The answer is simple.
No, it isn't. Your very nice style might be politically correct, but it
avoids the main points, which are: starting with the pre-Socratics
(about middle of 6th century BC) culminating with the divine Plato and
then Zeno etc. (5th century), including may be the 4th as well, a
period of hardly a couple of centuries or so, a people or a race
speaking the Greek language have reached the highest peaks of human
thought (in particular Plato). Those peaks had never been reached before
by any other human population, as far as we know, and in all likelihood
will never be reached again. It is as if only the Greeks living during
those centuries were capable of thought and art and literature, or knew
how to think or what art and literature was. Mommsen said that when
Minerva (of course, she represented higher thoughts, wisdom, arts etc.)
was born , she was born mature, as an adult. OK, I know she was
Etruscan, but what M implied was that mature wisdom appears when the
first humans appear on this planet. However, this is patently untrue,
and seems to have applied only to the Greeks, and to nobody else,
before or after them, and only during those centuries. By the 2nd and
1st century BC., the Greeks had sank to the general level of stupidity
and inability to think of the rest of the human race. Now this requires
some explaining, and is far from simple: why the Greeks? Why during
those times? What went wrong after them? What was responsible for this
absolutely *unique* phenomenon in the history of mankind? what was the
racial component or mix of those particular Greeks? What were the
circumstances who facilitated that phenomenon? This does not of course
exclude a mixture of various racial backgrounds, ranging from non IE
Asiatic to a germanic one, other cultural and spiritual influences (ex
oriente lux) etc., yet it has to be analysed and explained: why them?
why then? why never before and after? why nobody else? My interest in
the IE issue is largely if not entirely due to my desire to understand
this unique phenomenon, because of the IE nature of the Greek language.
--
nobody nowhere
Lector Priest
> by any other human population, as far as we know, and in all likelihood
> will never be reached again.
Don't forget the knowledge of our Egyptian brothers.
ADR
> > Didn't ask you to believe me but Evans did believe in the Aryan race and
> > made his contribution to it.
>
> Even assholes can back things that might be true.
>
>
But an asshole inventing a lie is even worse.
ADR
> > > The Columns of Crete appear to mimic Egyptian style columns in my
book.
> > > Greek columns appear to be a mimicry of the Cretan columns. Look at
the
> > > artwork at the bottoms and tops of the columns to see what I am
talking
> > > about.
> >
> >
> > And you'll notice something else. You'll notice that the one thing the
> > Greeks could not mimick from the Egypt was the pyramids.
Phoenician pyramids have been found on the Canary Islands (small ones) and
descendents of the Phoenicians settled in Greece and became Greeks. You
could argue that the Greeks did not need to build pyramids or mimick them.
That is true, their burial practise was difference and so was the topography
of their landscape. But did you notice what those neo-something writers
write about the Egyptians?
Matt Giwer
>
> > Linear B is found simultaneously in Crete, Pylos, Mycenae and Thebes - it
> is
> > the script of Mycenaean Greece, and so Greek language of 14-13C BCE.
>
> It is Mycenean and not Greek.
>
> > some archetactural styles throughout the area of Mycenaean influence -
> Crete
> > and mainland Greece?
>
> or Enlil just as Odysses has it's derivations of Gilgamesh. Or are you going
> to draw a picture of ancient Crete that is unverifiable and untrue like
> Evans did?
>
> >
> > > writing system? Not Cretan either.
> >
>
> from Phoenician? And you can forget about your IE invaders. Don't paint
> ancient history with the brush of western imperialism. Inventing an ancient
> IE people who invaded others was a pretty way for those British, French and
> Portugese bastards to claim they were not doing anything that hadn't been
> done before. In fact, they were. And the result of this tampering with
> history was also the Nazis. Why the IE myth still persists is because the
> British/Western establishment does not want to take the blame for creating
> the Nazi ideology and they still want this myth to supress the pride of
> Asian peoples.
Might I inquire what they have to be proud of?
--
If you quit smoking now you can live long enough
to get Altzheimer's.
-- The Iron Webmaster
Myros Pimenakis
ADR wrote:
>
> > Linear B is found simultaneously in Crete, Pylos, Mycenae and Thebes - it
> is
> > the script of Mycenaean Greece, and so Greek language of 14-13C BCE.
>
> It is Mycenean and not Greek.
Last time I've checked the Mycenaeans are referred as Greeks.
Or are you from those who say that Hellene and Greek is not the same?
>
> > How then do we account for Cretan Zeus, Chronos etc, and the similarity of
> > some archetactural styles throughout the area of Mycenaean influence -
> Crete
> > and mainland Greece?
>
> Sorry, this shows your limits. Myths of Zeus are as similar to myths of Ptah
> or Enlil just as Odysses has it's derivations of Gilgamesh. Or are you going
> to draw a picture of ancient Crete that is unverifiable and untrue like
> Evans did?
It does not matter how many similarities they have. I can hardly recall any scholar referring to the ancient Gods worshiped in Greece other than Greek. It is only you and
some smart asses like you who want to give all the credit to your champions the Egyptians.
If you do not like the picture of Evans then you should provide another one that will be better and put his aside. If not then you should rather shut up. After all even an
ass can criticize everyone and everything. But I guess that is the difference between a scholar who knows what he is talking about and spends his life working hard to
provide evidence for his theories and a person like you trying to present himself as the ultimate authority in history but hangs around the history NG's.
BTW when Odyssey was written there was no contact between the Indians and the Greeks as far as I know.
There are also similarities in philosophy between the Greeks and the Chinese. Yet the two people had no contact.
So your point is?
>
> >
> > > What about their
> > > writing system? Not Cretan either.
> >
> > Linear A certainly not. Probably IE invaders/settlers from Anatolia.
>
> I'm talking about Greek writing if you didn't realise. Why is it derived
> from Phoenician?
What is the problem with that? Everything is derived from something else. The Greeks took the Phoenician alphabet, changed it to suit their needs and made the Greek
alphabet. The Romans did the same with the Greek alphabet creating the Latin alphabet and then we had the Slavs doing the same creating their own alphabet(s). So should we
call all of them Phoenician alphabets?
I am afraid it does not work that way.
> And you can forget about your IE invaders. Don't paint
> ancient history with the brush of western imperialism.
Rather paint it with Egyptian colours like ADR.
> Inventing an ancient
> IE people who invaded others was a pretty way for those British, French and
> Portugese bastards to claim they were not doing anything that hadn't been
> done before.
Oh? Is there a book regarding this or is just another of your funny theories?
After all the above is correct. What did the British etc. did that the ancient Greeks or Egyptians had not done before?
So who needs this IE theory for that purpose? NONE.
> In fact, they were. And the result of this tampering with
> history was also the Nazis. Why the IE myth still persists is because the
> British/Western establishment does not want to take the blame for creating
> the Nazi ideology and they still want this myth to supress the pride of
> Asian peoples.
Or because some people like only to criticize rather than put your mind in gear and give a better explanation. They just want to talk cheap since it suits them better. The
other way is more difficult. It requires lots of work and evidence. But to criticize is very easy and with a bit of copy and paste everyone can do it.
In any case what you said above makes no sense. We don't need the IE theory for that. The history of the Egyptians, the Greeks etc. is enough. Are you forgetting the
slaves? How about the Greek "every non Greek is a barbarian"? Isn't this enough for the Nazi theory for any kind of discrimination?
The only thing you haven't told us yet is that there were some sort of Human Rights orgs. at those times protecting the minorities/ethnicities in the areas they were
conquered. Hell they had a court for crimes against humanity as well.
MSP
Myros Pimenakis
ADR wrote:
>
> They all blame Evans for rebuilding parts of the palace of Knossos in the
> wrong (according
> > to them) way, but NONE had ever given so far an alternative.
>
> They don't have to give an alternative to challenge Evans.
Of course they have to. Also there must be something else to compare and see that the new one is better than the one Evans had provided us. Without that talk is cheap and
as far as I know
there is no theory regarding the Minoans that is even near to challenge Evan's one.
> Evans created his
> own version of Minoan architecture, he created the vision of a King Minos
> and his palace that didn't exist before.
And how would you know if you don't have an alternative? As far as I know nobody so far had provided an alternative that was accepted by the academic world. So until then
Evans is right and you and the rest morons who criticize his great work so easily, are full of hot air. In any case why do you bother for something you state is "just
rubble" ?
You don't know how sorry I am that, the palace of Knossos was not found in a better condition for you to appreciate it.
> Now a million people a year go to
> visit a palace of King Minos which is really just a rubble that has nothing
> linking it to Greek mythology.
Nothing linking it to Greek mythology? Are you serious? There are lots that link it to the Greek mythology even though the Minoans were not Greeks.
As for the palace being "just a rubble" most archaeological sites are like that. And from those rubbles the REAL archaeologists like Evans try to put the puzzle together.
Unlike some who hang around the history NG's pretend to outsmart everyone with their little theories providing little if any evidence.
If you are so smart then try to challenge Evan's theory in the real world. Not here.
> But even funnier are the Christians who walk
> around Jerusalem with a cross.
Irrelevant to the subject.
> You can do Goa by motorbike, Tuscany on a
> scooter or you can do Jerusalem by cross.
Out of context.
> Crete is nothing in comparison to
> what goes on in Palestine and Israel.
Your opinion.
> There are people who visit a cave made
> of white rock and literally eat the stone because they think it turned white
> when Mary breastfed Jesus for the first time and they believe that eating
> the rocks can heal you.
Stick to the subject or shut the fuck up.
>Pagans.
Let people be the way they want to. For as long as they don't harm their neighbours and live in peace, they can be whatever they want.
MSP
Myros Pimenakis
Pete Barrett wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:22:42 +1000, "Steve T"
> <stal...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Not choosing sides, but as a modern Greek Australian who has had some
> >exposure to the classics I have to say that all these efforts to prove
> >Greeks looked one way or another or descended from one group or another are
> >feeble attempts to somehow associate those brilliant individuals with your
> >particular ethnic group or even world view.
> >
> >Forget it.
> >
> >Hellenism is and always has been a cultural phenomenon with no basis in
> >race.
> >
> >This is why it endured as long as it did and survives to this day.
> >
> >Given the number of invasions throughout Hellas' history it would be
> >impossible to draw a direct line back to the original Hellenes. Each invader
> >came, liked what they saw and stayed around. Simple as that.
> >
> >Hellenic culture assimilated all comers.
> >You simply had to follow the Greek way of life to be a Greek.
> >Any modern Greek who tells you otherwise doesn't know what a true Hellene
> >is.
> >
> >This is what most people, predictably, fail to grasp.
> >Only someone who has experienced Greek culture from the "inside" can even
> >hope to understand the significance of it.
> >
> >A true Hellene has no need of geneaology because it is not relevant to the
> >Hellene question.
> >
> I've understood that the rules for participation in the Olympic Games
> had something to do with being Greek by blood, rather than by culture.
> The Macedonians (or at least the kings) were considered Greek for
> these purposes, and later the Romans were allowed to participate
> without even the decency of a fictitious Greek ancestry - bowing to
> the inevitable, I suppose.
>
> Is this wrong?
Yes if you say by blood. After all who was Greek by blood? The Ionians, the Dorians, the Illyrians ...... who? They were all there as Greeks you see. Yet even though i.e.
the Molossis were Greeks the rest of the Illyrians were barbarians. So it has nothing to do with blood because if you want to use a modern term there were more than one
ethnicities in the Greek ethnos/nation. The common factor of all of them was the Greek Paideia (education). That is the reason why i.e. the Macedonians were not accepted so
easily as Greeks. They had first to Hellenize themselves bringing themselves closer to the Greek standards of culture.
Yet it is more complicated than that. After all it did not matter i.e. if the Persians would have had totally Hellenize themselves and at the same time create a myth
linking them to the Greeks. I doubt that they were ever going to be accepted as Greeks.
MSP
>
> Pete Barrett
Jacqueline GUGENHEIM
> how to think or what art and literature was. Mommsen said that when
> Minerva (of course, she represented higher thoughts, wisdom, arts etc.)
> was born , she was born mature, as an adult. OK, I know she was
> Etruscan, but what M implied was that mature wisdom appears when the
> first humans appear on this planet.
Please dont refer to Minerva when talking about the Greeks; for them she was
Pallas Athena
> some explaining, and is far from simple: why the Greeks? Why during
> those times? What went wrong after them? What was responsible for this
> absolutely *unique* phenomenon in the history of mankind? what was the
> racial component or mix of those particular Greeks? What were the
> circumstances who facilitated that phenomenon?
Hellenists usually agree that the cause of this phenomenon was the invention of
democracy. For the first time in histoiry, people were free to express their
ideas and discuss them in public.
Another reason was that also for the first time in history man was considered
as "the measure of everything". Previously, gods were "the measure of
everything". These two reasons, of course, tremendously
helped human mind to progress.
Jacqueline
Lector Priest
> descendents of the Phoenicians settled in Greece and became Greeks. You
> could argue that the Greeks did not need to build pyramids or mimick them.
> That is true, their burial practise was difference and so was the
topography
> of their landscape. But did you notice what those neo-something writers
> write about the Egyptians?
Yes, they write bullshit about Egypt.
After this era of man has been destroyed and forgotten, I wonder what
archaeologists of the future will say about New York.
Myros Pimenakis
Then stop those bad habits and go to bed.
MSP
Pete Barrett
wrote:
>Phoenician pyramids have been found on the Canary Islands (small ones) and
>descendents of the Phoenicians settled in Greece and became Greeks. You
>could argue that the Greeks did not need to build pyramids or mimick them.
>That is true, their burial practise was difference and so was the topography
>of their landscape. But did you notice what those neo-something writers
>write about the Egyptians?
>
Apparently not Phoenician. There was a program on Channel 4 the other
night,which came up with the idea that the first settlers were Berbers
from N. Africa, and that they built those pyramids.
And the principals in that program spoke of the Egyptians with some
respect (as you would expect).
Pete Barrett
ADR
> Nothing linking it to Greek mythology? Are you serious? There are lots
that link it to the Greek mythology even though the Minoans were not Greeks.
Then please quote from Minoan scripture. Ahem...
> Stick to the subject or shut the fuck up.
Shut the fuck up if you don't know the subject. Better than that go and fuck
yourself regardless. If you're going to swear, fine. I'll join you. But if
you're going to make stupid comments like the line at the top of this post,
then you can go and fuck your mother too.
ADR
> Apparently not Phoenician. There was a program on Channel 4 the other
> night,which came up with the idea that the first settlers were Berbers
> from N. Africa, and that they built those pyramids.
In one book I read these 'Berbers' were actually Phoenicians who settled
Libya too. Actually an historian from the Canaries back that up when I spoke
to him.
nobody nowhere
<gu...@cybercable.fr> writes
>nobody nowhere a écrit :
"wrote"
>
>> how to think or what art and literature was. Mommsen said that when
>> Minerva (of course, she represented higher thoughts, wisdom, arts etc.)
>> was born , she was born mature, as an adult. OK, I know she was
>> Etruscan, but what M implied was that mature wisdom appears when the
>> first humans appear on this planet.
>
>Please dont refer to Minerva when talking about the Greeks; for them she was
>Pallas Athena
I did not say or pretend that Minerva was Greek, in fact I said she was
Etruscan. I only *quoted* Mommsen (Histoire Romaine): if Mommsen said
"Minerva" I could not say Pallas Athena.
>
>
>Hellenists usually agree that the cause of this phenomenon was the invention of
>democracy. For the first time in histoiry, people were free to express their
>ideas and discuss them in public.
There have been in modern times a number (admittedly small) of genuine
democracies, which, however, have not led to great intellectual
achievements. Someone said that a thousand years of Swiss civilisation
have produced... the cuckoo-clock. I bet that the Swiss were a
democracy during this period, or at least most of it.
>Another reason was that also for the first time in history man was considered
>as "the measure of everything". Previously, gods were "the measure of
>everything". These two reasons, of course, tremendously
>helped human mind to progress.
>Jacqueline
>
Ah, la langue de bois.
>
Many if not most Greek cities were tyrannies, and tyrants were known as
great supporters of philosophy and arts. Amongst the relatively few
exceptions was Athens. It is true that Athens was a democracy more or
less during the relevant two centuries or so (but not before or after).
However, great intellectual and artistic achievements occurred during
the tyranny of Pisistrate (French spelling to oblige). Also Athenian
democracy itself was more fragile and superficial than it is generally
known. In any case, this simplistic answer begs the question why were
the Greeks, eg the Athenians, intelligent enough to establish a
democracy, in those cities where they did so, of the kind which led to
these achievements. It is also inconceivable that other perhaps more
primitive societies at the time did not have a democratic structure of
some kind. No, the answer is more complex, although not mysterious. It
is a question of scientific detail and depth, as opposed to slogans.
--
nobody nowhere
ADR
> BTW when Odyssey was written there was no contact between the Indians and
the Greeks as far as I know.
Gilgamesh was transmitted to the Greeks via the Hittites. Gilgamesh is not
Indian but Akkadian deriving from Sumerian. Are you worth arguing with?
> So your point is?
Study before you speak here. Same goes for 90% of you.
The Greeks took the Phoenician alphabet, changed it to suit their needs and
made the Greek
> alphabet.
Rather Phoenicians assimilated themselves on Greek islands and the script
evolved into Greek script.
>The Romans did the same with the Greek alphabet creating the Latin alphabet
Partially. But Phoenicians settled parts of Italy too.
>and then we had the Slavs doing the same creating their own alphabet(s). So
should we
> call all of them Phoenician alphabets?
Derivative with some original elements. But the Slavs are also a myth based
on a small group who died out some 1500 years ago. There is no Slavic race.
Neither is there such a thing as Ethnic Albanian. Western models are what is
making the world a hellish place for so many to live in.
> I am afraid it does not work that way.
>
> > And you can forget about your IE invaders. Don't paint
> > ancient history with the brush of western imperialism.
>
> Rather paint it with Egyptian colours like ADR.
Say what you want. The number of definitions of me that come from slandering
is mind boggling.
ADR
> Hellenists usually agree that the cause of this phenomenon was the
invention of
> democracy. For the first time in histoiry, people were free to express
their
> ideas and discuss them in public.
What makes you think that such a thing did not exist in the prior to the
Greeks? First of all everybody could decide to follow religion or not. There
is no evidence that free-speesh was condemned. There is no evidence that
people had to conform to any given political or religious ideology. They
could choose to follow one deity or to reject a deity and follow another.
You might want to read some ancient texts some time. They were far ahead of
the Greeks in every field. Read the Teachings of Vizier Ptahhotep. Read the
philosophies on the nature of dying in both Egyptian and Akkadian texts.
Read the Upanishads. All these texts were written in an atmosphere of free
speech. Consider also that a famous Greek teacher was forced to drink
hemlock because of his free speech.
felixsula
lasted perhaps less than three generations.
--
-----------------------------------------------------
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"nobody nowhere" <nnow...@fantasy.co.eg> wrote in message
news:SYQSiGAq...@jwhite.demon.co.uk...
> In article <397F1663...@cybercable.fr>, Jacqueline GUGENHEIM
> <gu...@cybercable.fr> writes
>
> >nobody nowhere a écrit :
>
> "wrote"
>
>
> >
> >> how to think or what art and literature was. Mommsen said that when
> >> Minerva (of course, she represented higher thoughts, wisdom, arts
etc.)
> >> was born , she was born mature, as an adult. OK, I know she was
> >> Etruscan, but what M implied was that mature wisdom appears when the
> >> first humans appear on this planet.
> >
> >Please dont refer to Minerva when talking about the Greeks; for them she
was
> >Pallas Athena
>
> I did not say or pretend that Minerva was Greek, in fact I said she was
> Etruscan. I only *quoted* Mommsen (Histoire Romaine): if Mommsen said
> "Minerva" I could not say Pallas Athena.
> >
> >
> >Hellenists usually agree that the cause of this phenomenon was the
invention of
> >democracy. For the first time in histoiry, people were free to express
their
> >ideas and discuss them in public.
>
Lector Priest
> evolved into Greek script.
Were these the "Sea People" pushed out by the Doric and Mycenaeans?
Lector Priest
> Libya too. Actually an historian from the Canaries back that up when I
spoke
> to him.
I would tend to agree with this. Libyan dress in some Egyptian heiroglyphs
looks particularly strange for the region it comes from.
Lector Priest
> great supporters of philosophy and arts. Amongst the relatively few
> exceptions was Athens. It is true that Athens was a democracy more or
> less during the relevant two centuries or so (but not before or after).
> However, great intellectual and artistic achievements occurred during
> the tyranny of Pisistrate (French spelling to oblige). Also Athenian
> democracy itself was more fragile and superficial than it is generally
> known. In any case, this simplistic answer begs the question why were
> the Greeks, eg the Athenians, intelligent enough to establish a
> democracy, in those cities where they did so, of the kind which led to
> these achievements. It is also inconceivable that other perhaps more
> primitive societies at the time did not have a democratic structure of
> some kind. No, the answer is more complex, although not mysterious. It
> is a question of scientific detail and depth, as opposed to slogans.
Democracy requires the state. The state requires paperwork. Paperwork
requires writing.
Lector Priest
> Greeks? First of all everybody could decide to follow religion or not.
There
> is no evidence that free-speesh was condemned. There is no evidence that
> people had to conform to any given political or religious ideology. They
> could choose to follow one deity or to reject a deity and follow another.
> You might want to read some ancient texts some time. They were far ahead
of
> the Greeks in every field. Read the Teachings of Vizier Ptahhotep. Read
the
> philosophies on the nature of dying in both Egyptian and Akkadian texts.
> Read the Upanishads. All these texts were written in an atmosphere of free
> speech. Consider also that a famous Greek teacher was forced to drink
> hemlock because of his free speech.
You are correct sir. Many other cultures had the same types of elements
going for them. Did not Iceland democratically vote in Christianity at the
Allthing?
Steve T
> Your very nice style might be politically correct, but it
> avoids the main points, which are: starting with the pre-Socratics
> (about middle of 6th century BC) culminating with the divine Plato and
> then Zeno etc. (5th century), including may be the 4th as well, a
> period of hardly a couple of centuries or so, a people or a race
> speaking the Greek language have reached the highest peaks of human
> by any other human population, as far as we know, and in all likelihood
> will never be reached again.
While it may not be as simple as I suggest, it's not nearly as mysterious as
you would have us believe.
The lifestyle these individuals enjoyed facilitated their free thinking
attitude.
This lifestyle is what hadn't been seen before (and, dare I say, hasn't been
seen since).
A better question would be to ask why they decided to live in such a way.
> It is as if only the Greeks living during
> those centuries were capable of thought and art and literature, or knew
> how to think or what art and literature was.
> Mommsen said that when Minerva (of course, she represented higher
thoughts, wisdom, arts etc.)
> was born , she was born mature, as an adult. OK, I know she was
> Etruscan, but what M implied was that mature wisdom appears when the
> first humans appear on this planet. However, this is patently untrue,
> and seems to have applied only to the Greeks, and to nobody else,
> before or after them, and only during those centuries.
What about the New Testament. Hardly an insignificant historical curiosity
and also largely Greek influenced and, a large part(?), actually written in
Greek. Full of profound wisdom.
> By the 2nd and 1st century BC., the Greeks had sank to the general level
of stupidity
> and inability to think of the rest of the human race.
Hero of Alexandria (Greek scholar), at the same time as that religious chap
was nailed to a cross, invented the steam turbine, the catalyst for the
industrial revolution.
Another "stupid" Eastern Roman Hellene came up with the concept of Greek
Fire (petroleum based substance). Do you dispute the value of petroleum in
the modern world. It is, at least partly, responsible for the technological
revolution we enjoy today (and is, not surprisingly, used primarily to drive
turbines of all sorts).
Hardly individuals who've sunken to any level of stupidity.
> Now this requires some explaining, and is far from simple: why the Greeks?
Why during
> those times? What went wrong after them? What was responsible for this
> absolutely *unique* phenomenon in the history of mankind? what was the
> racial component or mix of those particular Greeks? What were the
> circumstances who facilitated that phenomenon?
Nothing went wrong after them.
A Greek speaking Eastern Roman society existed and flourished until 1453.
A space of over 1500 years, after your "magical" 1st century B.C.
If they were as stupid as you suggest, surely they wouldn't have lasted so
long while being constantly attacked from all sides.
No one is that lucky. Their society would've crumbled long before then.
The only explanation for the longevity of this culture is its basis in Greek
wisdom and philanthropy, but with a Christian focus.
Also, it's no surprise that no significant artistic or technological
developments occured in Western Europe until after the fall of this Eastern
Hellenic society.
A space of 50 years between the fall of Constantinople and the onset of the
Renaissance can easily be explained by the mass exodus of free thinking,
artistically and technologically inclined Eastern Hellenes to the West.
What's more, the amount of Hellenic literature that's been lost far
outweighs the small fragments Western scholars pathetically cling to.
A simple case of "Hellenis Envy", methinks.
Neville Lindsay
"ADR" <a.dall...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:m0Jf5.11213$yE4.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> > BTW when Odyssey was written there was no contact between the Indians
and
> the Greeks as far as I know.
>
>
> Gilgamesh was transmitted to the Greeks via the Hittites. Gilgamesh is not
> Indian but Akkadian deriving from Sumerian. Are you worth arguing with?
>
>
> > So your point is?
>
> Study before you speak here. Same goes for 90% of you.
>
> The Greeks took the Phoenician alphabet, changed it to suit their needs
and
> made the Greek
> > alphabet.
>
> evolved into Greek script.
The idea of Phoenicians as settlers is very dubious. They were essentially
traders as were the Portuguese much later, and where they settled, they were
setting up shop, not colonising. Their becoming part of the Aegean populace
and providing the cultural base is a construct which has no obvious basis,
any more than would a suggestion that the Egyptians had assimilated
themselves in the Greek world because the Greeks used their building and
decorative forms. The Greeks were great borrowers, and their genius was to
borrow and improve quickly and dramatically.
>
> >The Romans did the same with the Greek alphabet creating the Latin
alphabet
>
> Partially. But Phoenicians settled parts of Italy too.
>
Where was this? The Greeks did this as a colonising move, the Phoenicians
moved along the southern Mediterranean to Spain and the islands, before
being stopped by the Greeks in a decisive naval battle at Massilia.
>
> >and then we had the Slavs doing the same creating their own alphabet(s).
So
> should we
> > call all of them Phoenician alphabets?
>
> Derivative with some original elements. But the Slavs are also a myth
based
> on a small group who died out some 1500 years ago. There is no Slavic
race.
> Neither is there such a thing as Ethnic Albanian.
Yes, unfortunately people think of Greek, Slav etc as being ethnically based
rather than culturally. Greeks are those who have adopted Hellenic culture,
Slavs those who adopted Slavic culture, French those who adopted Gallic
culture - the Near East was hellenised, the Rus were slavicised and the
Franks then the Norsemen gallicised in about a hundred years.
Western models are what is
> making the world a hellish place for so many to live in.
>
What on earth is that supposed to mean other than a rabid bitch that its a
cruel world because it doesn't suit you? Are there eastern, northern and
southern models which make for a less hellish place for so many to live in?
>
>
> > I am afraid it does not work that way.
> >
> > > And you can forget about your IE invaders. Don't paint
> > > ancient history with the brush of western imperialism.
> >
> > Rather paint it with Egyptian colours like ADR.
>
> Say what you want. The number of definitions of me that come from
slandering
> is mind boggling.
>
You slander yourself, every day, haven't you woken up to that?
NL
Neville Lindsay
"Jacqueline GUGENHEIM" <gu...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:397F1663...@cybercable.fr...
> nobody nowhere a écrit :
>
> > how to think or what art and literature was. Mommsen said that when
> > Minerva (of course, she represented higher thoughts, wisdom, arts etc.)
> > was born , she was born mature, as an adult. OK, I know she was
> > Etruscan, but what M implied was that mature wisdom appears when the
> > first humans appear on this planet.
>
was
> Pallas Athena
>
> > those times? What went wrong after them? What was responsible for this
> > absolutely *unique* phenomenon in the history of mankind? what was the
> > racial component or mix of those particular Greeks? What were the
> > circumstances who facilitated that phenomenon?
>
invention of
> democracy. For the first time in histoiry, people were free to express
their
> ideas and discuss them in public.
Democracy had little to do with hellenic development. Things had been well
underway for a couple of hundred years before democracy raised its head.
Unfortunately there is this widespread Athenocentric view of the hellenic
world because of the fact that the Athenians managed to extort much tribute
from its neighbours, illegally decided to splurge these common-defence funds
on itself , and left behind some lasting monuments and written artefacts. In
fact the development of hellenic advancement originated to a large degree in
the eastern greeks - the islands and western Asia Minor; the western greeks
were also not without their contribution. In all this it is hard to see
democracy as anything other than a by-product - part of the result rather
than the cause of the result.
> Another reason was that also for the first time in history man was
considered
> as "the measure of everything". Previously, gods were "the measure of
> everything". These two reasons, of course, tremendously
> helped human mind to progress.
> Jacqueline
>
Again this temporal view was a product of the development/enlightenment
rather than the driving force. It is easy to invert the cause-effect in a
view from the present, but it is better to look at the sequence of
development rather than take an Athenian half-century as the cause, rather
than a best-recorded flowering. The plant grows for much longer than the
flower show.
NL
Neville Lindsay
"felixsula" <feli...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:OLc92Y19$GA.347@cpmsnbbsa08...
> I'm reading Pressfields Tides of War, he seems to believe this golden age
> lasted perhaps less than three generations.
>
But what about the ongoing results, even unto this day?
NL
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Click here for Free Video!!
> http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
>
> "nobody nowhere" <nnow...@fantasy.co.eg> wrote in message
> news:SYQSiGAq...@jwhite.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <397F1663...@cybercable.fr>, Jacqueline GUGENHEIM
> > <gu...@cybercable.fr> writes
> >
> > >nobody nowhere a écrit :
> >
> > "wrote"
> >
> >
> > >
> > >> how to think or what art and literature was. Mommsen said that when
> > >> Minerva (of course, she represented higher thoughts, wisdom, arts
> etc.)
> > >> was born , she was born mature, as an adult. OK, I know she was
> > >> Etruscan, but what M implied was that mature wisdom appears when
the
> > >> first humans appear on this planet.
> > >
> > >Please dont refer to Minerva when talking about the Greeks; for them
she
> was
> > >Pallas Athena
> >
> > I did not say or pretend that Minerva was Greek, in fact I said she was
> > Etruscan. I only *quoted* Mommsen (Histoire Romaine): if Mommsen said
> > "Minerva" I could not say Pallas Athena.
> > >
> > >
> > >Hellenists usually agree that the cause of this phenomenon was the
> invention of
> > >democracy. For the first time in histoiry, people were free to express
> their
> > >ideas and discuss them in public.
> >
> > There have been in modern times a number (admittedly small) of genuine
> > democracies, which, however, have not led to great intellectual
> > achievements. Someone said that a thousand years of Swiss civilisation
> > have produced... the cuckoo-clock. I bet that the Swiss were a
> > democracy during this period, or at least most of it.
> >
> > >Another reason was that also for the first time in history man was
> considered
> > >as "the measure of everything". Previously, gods were "the measure of
> > >everything". These two reasons, of course, tremendously
> > >helped human mind to progress.
> > >Jacqueline
> > >
> > Ah, la langue de bois.
> > >
> >
> > --
> > nobody nowhere
>
>
Neville Lindsay
"Lector Priest" <kur...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8ll40g$vl0$3...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> > How then do we account for Cretan Zeus, Chronos etc, and the similarity
of
> > some archetactural styles throughout the area of Mycenaean influence -
> Crete
> > and mainland Greece?
>
Crete
And of course, Chronos had done-in _his_ father Uranus, presumably of an
earlier people's pantheon.
> and their gods becoming dominant to the native ones.
>
As they did at Delphi, but kept the Pythia as Apollo's mouthpiece, and so on
elsewhere - Delos, Dordona etc. We find in the 5th Century Athenian
tragedies the 'old gods' and the 'new gods' so this was well understood in
the culture.
NL
Neville Lindsay
"Steve T" <stal...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:397ddcb0$0$11142$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
> Not choosing sides, but as a modern Greek Australian who has had some
> exposure to the classics I have to say that all these efforts to prove
> Greeks looked one way or another or descended from one group or another
are
> feeble attempts to somehow associate those brilliant individuals with your
> particular ethnic group or even world view.
>
> Forget it.
>
> Hellenism is and always has been a cultural phenomenon with no basis in
> race.
>
> This is why it endured as long as it did and survives to this day.
>
> Given the number of invasions throughout Hellas' history it would be
> impossible to draw a direct line back to the original Hellenes. Each
invader
> came, liked what they saw and stayed around. Simple as that.
>
> Hellenic culture assimilated all comers.
> You simply had to follow the Greek way of life to be a Greek.
> Any modern Greek who tells you otherwise doesn't know what a true Hellene
> is.
>
> This is what most people, predictably, fail to grasp.
> Only someone who has experienced Greek culture from the "inside" can even
> hope to understand the significance of it.
>
> A true Hellene has no need of geneaology because it is not relevant to the
> Hellene question.
>
apparent
> to me as I have matured (regardless of what history books say, mostly
> writings and translations by non-Greeks).
>
> Does it seem odd that such astute individuals were repeatedly conquered so
> easily and by so many different groups?
>
> The answer is simple.
>
> They knew that it didn't matter all that much if they were over-run as
long
> as they maintained their way of life, in the true spirit of hospitality
> (believe it or leave it).
>
> They therefore only violently resisted groups who posed a serious threat
to
> this lifestyle ie Persians, Turks etc. while easily yielding to the likes
of
> Macedonia (already Hellenistic if not Hellenic) and Rome.
>
> Remember, the Roman Empire was Roman in name but Hellenistic in spirit.
>
>
ADR
> The idea of Phoenicians as settlers is very dubious.
Hardly. People settle wherever they make contacts.
They were essentially
> traders as were the Portuguese much later, and where they settled, they
were
> setting up shop, not colonising.
But the Portugese did colonise and exploit. You can't compare the two.
Their becoming part of the Aegean populace
> and providing the cultural base is a construct which has no obvious basis,
Not obvious because as said before, they were assimilated. In the ancient
world moving from one place to another meant you took up somebody elses
culture while adding what you could. Indians and Jews still do that. Muslims
and Christians consider themselves better.
> decorative forms. The Greeks were great borrowers, and their genius was to
> borrow and improve quickly and dramatically.
Hmm, I'd rather put it mostly down to people fleeing from a war torn Near
East which was decaying greatly. Many of these people became Greeks too.
Those who couldn't sometimes came into conflict with the Greeks and later
the Romans.
> Where was this? The Greeks did this as a colonising move, the Phoenicians
> moved along the southern Mediterranean to Spain and the islands, before
> being stopped by the Greeks in a decisive naval battle at Massilia.
But the Phoenicians were settling areas of the Med long before that.
> You slander yourself, every day, haven't you woken up to that?
No. First of all what mistakes have I made? Come into conflict with some
racists? Wow.
Neville Lindsay
>
> "Pete Barrett" <pe...@platypus.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:q6urnss0jf1vnqdof...@4ax.com...
> > >exposure to the classics I have to say that all these efforts to prove
> > >Greeks looked one way or another or descended from one group or another
> are
> > >feeble attempts to somehow associate those brilliant individuals with
> your
> > >particular ethnic group or even world view.
> > >
> > >Forget it.
> > >
> > >Hellenism is and always has been a cultural phenomenon with no basis in
> > >race.
The early Hellenists did not see it that way. They established the
Amphythionic Council as the custodian of Hellenism, and admitted
representatives of the following peoples: Aenianes, Beotians, Dorians,
Dolopians, Ionians, Locrians, Magnetes, Malians, Perrhaebians, Phocians,
Phtiotic Achaeans, Thessalians.
Later ethnics moved in as they hellenised, either by consent or bribery or
force.
> > >
> > >This is why it endured as long as it did and survives to this day.
> > >
It certainly absorbed other people very successfully, just as Australian
culture has absorbed its immigrants formerly from Europe, but latterly all
parts of the world. And of course a successful absorbing culture is
inevitably enriched by its new entrants.
Hellenic culture did change, but maintained its basic integrity by its
re-classicising periods where it became expedient/fashionable to go back to
the old standards.
> > >Given the number of invasions throughout Hellas' history it would be
> > >impossible to draw a direct line back to the original Hellenes. Each
> invader
> > >came, liked what they saw and stayed around. Simple as that.
> > >
The earlier invaders made up the basic stock, which made them mixed -
Mycenaeans, Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians, Messenians, Arcadians, Achaeans,
Macedonians and so on. Subsequent passers-through and stayers-on over a
couple of millenia added their own overlays. Greeks are those who adopted
Greek culture - including later Thracians, Slavs, various Anatolians,
Syrians, Egyptians, Armenians etc etc.
> > >Hellenic culture assimilated all comers.
That is those who wanted to - now the Romans were basically philhellene, but
didn't hellenise, at least until they re-established the Empire in the east.
Similarly the veneer in the east was very thin, and as the empires of the
diadochi slipped, and of the Byzantines retreated, so there was a reversion
or adoption of new ways.
> > >You simply had to follow the Greek way of life to be a Greek.
> > >Any modern Greek who tells you otherwise doesn't know what a true
Hellene
> > >is.
> > >
> > >This is what most people, predictably, fail to grasp.
> > >Only someone who has experienced Greek culture from the "inside" can
even
> > >hope to understand the significance of it.
> > >
Now that is not a valid statement. It is open to people anywhere in the
world to understand other cultures, and saying that Greek culture is unique
is no more valid than claiming that any culture is likewise unique,
inscrutable and impenetrable. Modern Greeks know about what they think is
Greek culture, which is changing, few have a real knowledge about and
empathy with their ancient Greek roots, they no longer learn classical Attic
Greek as used to be the case, and have Europeanised their modern language.
You are talking about a modern Greek attitude rather than one which can
claim three thousand years of continuity.
> > >A true Hellene has no need of geneaology because it is not relevant to
> the
> > >Hellene question.
> > >
This is certainly not correct of classical times. The city state
predominated, greekness was just a shared culture. And the way you became a
citizen of the city was to be registered by your parent in your tribe. Being
therefore a citizen of a polis, you therefore entered the Greek people. The
genealogy came to have less and less meaning in colonies and new polis, as
increasingly they were established by recruiting local people who flocked to
avail themselves of city benefits and amenities. Happens everywhere now.
> > I've understood that the rules for participation in the Olympic Games
Not just the Olympia games but also the Nemean, Pythian etc.
> > had something to do with being Greek by blood, rather than by culture.
> > The Macedonians (or at least the kings) were considered Greek for
> > these purposes,
The Macedonians were considered barbarians, but Alexander I (495-450) was
recognised as an Hellene for his services during the Persian war (and by
fabricating a lineage) and so allowed to enter the games at Olympia. He set
about hellenising his court and so started the Macedonians on the way to
becoming Greeks, sort of rounded off by Philip & Alexander III. Interesting,
at that stage and onwards, the Macedonians considered themselves a cut above
other Greeks.
> > and later the Romans were allowed to participate
> > without even the decency of a fictitious Greek ancestry - bowing to
> > the inevitable, I suppose.
> >
A practice started by Nero, whom it would have been dangerous and
financially stupid to refuse.
> > Is this wrong?
> >
> >
> >
> > Pete Barrett
>
> IMHO Yes? Just another misinterpretation.(just like the one about
> homosexuality-it could've been interpreted as deep affection, without the
> sexual connotation)
>
> Like you I have to take the word of translators and historians.
>
> I would genuinely like to read every piece of Hellenic literature so I can
> also be clearer on the subject, but frankly what they wrote and what we
read
> aren't necessarily identical (again IMHO).
>
> According to the translator of Aristotle's Politics (Penguin) the
> "seperation of powers" is not a Hellenic idea, just some sort of
coincidence
> or a more primitive formulation. HA! (how can I trust these people, who
are
> obviously biased)
>
> However, as often as I hear it stated it never ceases to amuse me.
>
> BTW
> Did they have blood tests to determine a true Hellene?
> Was it by way of consensus?
> Was it judged on the way one looked?
> Was it based on ideology?
>
> How did one prove ones Hellenism?
>
> I also have to take issue with your assuming all Hellenic culture stemmed
> from Classical Hellas.
> As I tried to state, there's more to Hellenism than the Classical period
> (both before and after).
>
> Roman society was after all a "Hellenistic" society and the language did
> survive throughout the Eastern Roman empire for a thousand years after
> mighty Rome(the city) was a mere memory.
>
The Romans would have thought differently. They were philhellene to the
extent of looting the artefacts for their own use, copying them when the
looting ran dry, learnt to speak Greek and rhetoric, but basically had
little time for Greeks - treating them with contempt or patronisingly and
denying them the citizenship they lavished on Sain and Gaul. I speak here
about the upper classes - the bulk of Italians didn't know or care about
them or their culture or language. It was not until the demise of the west
that Romans became Greeks, as much as they still called themselves Romans
until the last.
> "Mighty Rome played general to tiny Greece" (or something along those
lines)
> immediately springs to mind for some reason.
>
Rome played general to the western world. And with southern Italy, Sicily
and a large part of the east hellenic or hellenised, Greece wasn't exactly
tiny.
NL
Neville Lindsay
"Myros Pimenakis" <mi...@stsnet.gr> wrote in message
news:397EC88F...@stsnet.gr...
>
> Pete Barrett wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:22:42 +1000, "Steve T"
> > <stal...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote:
> the Molossis were Greeks the rest of the Illyrians were barbarians. So it
has nothing to do with blood because if you want to use a modern term there
were more than one
> ethnicities in the Greek ethnos/nation. The common factor of all of them
was the Greek Paideia (education). That is the reason why i.e. the
Macedonians were not accepted so
> easily as Greeks. They had first to Hellenize themselves bringing
themselves closer to the Greek standards of culture.
> Yet it is more complicated than that. After all it did not matter i.e. if
the Persians would have had totally Hellenize themselves and at the same
time create a myth
> linking them to the Greeks. I doubt that they were ever going to be
accepted as Greeks.
>
Yet Alexander thought so. He founded cities from Alexandria to the Indus (a
squillion of them also Alexandrias), organised mass marriages with Persian
women, and this was followed by the diadochi and their descendents. The
cities of the east - all the Antiochs, Sebastes etc were Greek polis, and
with the shortage of Macedonians/Greeks, even after Hellas had been stripped
of manpower to populate these cities - were full of hellenised locals who
were full citizens. Asia Minor is littered with the ruins of these cities,
and just not on the coast. introduced very large numbers of Persians/Medes
into his army, and showed every sign of wanting to hellenise the whole east.
He invented large scale hellenisation. Koine Greek was the lingua franca
beside Aramaic. Hellenisation was the way to go, and it kept on for as long
as the hellenistic kings and then later the Romans and Byzantines were able
to protect them.
NL
> MSP
>
> >
> > Pete Barrett
Neville Lindsay
NL
"Neville Lindsay" <nev...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:uKPf5.13152$4p3.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> xxx
> "Steve T" <stal...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
> news:397ddcb0$0$11142$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
Myros Pimenakis
ADR wrote:
>
> > BTW when Odyssey was written there was no contact between the Indians and
> the Greeks as far as I know.
>
> Gilgamesh was transmitted to the Greeks via the Hittites. Gilgamesh is not
> Indian but Akkadian deriving from Sumerian. Are you worth arguing with?
Regarding the Minoans definately.
>
> > So your point is?
>
> Study before you speak here. Same goes for 90% of you.
If you mean study the way you do I rather not. I want to keep my sanity.
>
> The Greeks took the Phoenician alphabet, changed it to suit their needs and
> made the Greek
> > alphabet.
>
> Rather Phoenicians assimilated themselves on Greek islands and the script
> evolved into Greek script.
How do you know that? Do you have phoenician scripture refering to the above?
>
> >The Romans did the same with the Greek alphabet creating the Latin alphabet
>
> Partially. But Phoenicians settled parts of Italy too.
Can you mention some on their colonies and a reference book about that?
>
> >and then we had the Slavs doing the same creating their own alphabet(s). So
> should we
> > call all of them Phoenician alphabets?
>
> Derivative with some original elements. But the Slavs are also a myth based
> on a small group who died out some 1500 years ago. There is no Slavic race.
> Neither is there such a thing as Ethnic Albanian. Western models are what is
> making the world a hellish place for so many to live in.
I don't recall any Albanian or Slav having a problem with that. So your problem is? We should all be Egyptians I guess.
>
> > I am afraid it does not work that way.
> >
> > > And you can forget about your IE invaders. Don't paint
> > > ancient history with the brush of western imperialism.
> >
> > Rather paint it with Egyptian colours like ADR.
>
> Say what you want. The number of definitions of me that come from slandering
> is mind boggling.
I thought you was awake. Apparently still dreaming. As another poster had said to you WAKE UP.
MSP
Myros Pimenakis
ADR wrote:
>
> > Nothing linking it to Greek mythology? Are you serious? There are lots
> that link it to the Greek mythology even though the Minoans were not Greeks.
>
> Then please quote from Minoan scripture. Ahem...
Why? What's wrong with the Greek one?
Ooops wrong question. I forgot that for you no one else worth anything. Only your champions the Egyptians.
In any case why should I provide evidence to someone who never provides evidence for his joke theories?
We know that Minos believed to be the son of Zeus and Europe.
Do you have records in any scripture for the opposite? If not you have no case.
>
> > Stick to the subject or shut the fuck up.
>
> Shut the fuck up if you don't know the subject. Better than that go and fuck
> yourself regardless. If you're going to swear, fine. I'll join you. But if
> you're going to make stupid comments like the line at the top of this post,
> then you can go and fuck your mother too.
Thanks but I am not into kinky stuff, unlike you obviously.
Stupid comments for who? You? And who are you anyway? I have not seen your name in any reputable history publication.
I know that it hearts people like you that modern archaeologists no longer buy the myth of an ethnic connection between the Egyptians and the Minoans but that will be
your problem.
Go and get some education before you speak to me again. Isn't it enough that you are the joke of the history NG's - with your attempts to give all the credit to the
Egyptians - you want to be the joke of the whole internet?
MSP
ADR
>
>
> ADR wrote:
> >
> > > Nothing linking it to Greek mythology? Are you serious? There are lots
> > that link it to the Greek mythology even though the Minoans were not
Greeks.
> >
> > Then please quote from Minoan scripture. Ahem...
>
> Why? What's wrong with the Greek one?
> Ooops wrong question. I forgot that for you no one else worth anything.
Only your champions the Egyptians.
Really? I thought I was supposed to be the fucking curry muncher Indocentric
the last I heard.
ADR
> Then stop those bad habits and go to bed.
>
> MSP
>
>
OK. Now where did Mrs. Pimenakis go?
Lector Priest
on
> elsewhere - Delos, Dordona etc. We find in the 5th Century Athenian
> tragedies the 'old gods' and the 'new gods' so this was well understood in
> the culture.
Was there not a reference from a Greek historian who claimed the Keltoi
worshipped the Titans?
Neville Lindsay
Don't know of it - it would be a bit hard as, at least in the Orphic
tradition, when Zeus overcame the Titans, he burnt them and man was created
from their ashes.
NL
>
Lector Priest
> tradition, when Zeus overcame the Titans, he burnt them and man was
created
> from their ashes.
Could that not be where the stories of the Keltoi and the Greeks diverge?
There were Norse worshipping the Christian God while other Norse were still
worshiiping Thor, Odin, etc etc.
Neville Lindsay
Interesting idea, though I don't know of any sources on this. Perhaps
someone else can give us a lead.
NL
June R Harton
"Neville Lindsay" wrote
> The early Hellenists did not see it that way. They established the
> Amphythionic Council as the custodian of Hellenism, and admitted
> representatives of the following peoples: Aenianes, Beotians, Dorians,
> Dolopians, Ionians, Locrians, Magnetes, Malians, Perrhaebians, Phocians,
> Phtiotic Achaeans, Thessalians.
> Later ethnics moved in as they hellenised, either by consent or bribery or
> force.
BACK UP THAT BRIBERY CHARGE LIAR!
And, folks, this guy is faulty also in some of his general evaluations.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
Miros, you are not correct in your evaluation of the Epirotes
and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic peoples
from the beginning.
You are contributing to the delinquency of Neville.
:)
Neville Lindsay
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:8luch5$3ios$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> "Neville Lindsay" wrote
> > The early Hellenists did not see it that way. They established the
> > Amphythionic Council as the custodian of Hellenism, and admitted
> > representatives of the following peoples: Aenianes, Beotians, Dorians,
> > Dolopians, Ionians, Locrians, Magnetes, Malians, Perrhaebians, Phocians,
> > Phtiotic Achaeans, Thessalians.
> > Later ethnics moved in as they hellenised, either by consent or bribery
or
> > force.
>
>
>
> And, folks, this guy is faulty also in some of his general evaluations.
>
Poor June, she has no arguments, no logic, just pathetic diversionary abuse
and general whining.
NL
Neville Lindsay
>
>
> Miros, you are not correct in your evaluation of the Epirotes
> and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic peoples
> from the beginning.
>
They were not included in the Amphictionic League at its inception, so they
were _not_ recognised as hellenic by the other Greeks 'from the beginning'.
In consequence they were later entrants - after they became hellenised. The
Macedonians got their votes in the League when Philip II acquired them from
his vassals the Phocians. Parroting bits out of Herodotus proves nothing
against this stark evidence.
NL
> You are contributing to the delinquency of Neville.
>
> :)
June, I try to argue with evidence and reasoning. Your delinquency is there
for all to see in your emotive and abusive yapping at other people's heels.
NL
June R Harton
"Neville Lindsay" wrote
> "June R Harton" wrote
> > "Neville Lindsay" wrote
> > > The early Hellenists did not see it that way. They established the
> > > Amphythionic Council as the custodian of Hellenism, and admitted
> > > representatives of the following peoples: Aenianes, Beotians, Dorians,
> > > Dolopians, Ionians, Locrians, Magnetes, Malians, Perrhaebians,
Phocians,
> > > Phtiotic Achaeans, Thessalians.
> > > Later ethnics moved in as they hellenised, either by consent or
bribery
> > > or force.
> > BACK UP THAT BRIBERY CHARGE LIAR!
> > And, folks, this guy is faulty also in some of his general evaluations.
> Poor June, she has no arguments, no logic, just pathetic diversionary
abuse
> and general whining.
If you have NO texts to back up your statements then, Neville, I suggest
you cease your ramblings and subsequent deceits.
June R Harton
"Neville Lindsay" wrote
> "June R Harton" wrote
> > Miros, you are not correct in your evaluation of the Epirotes
> > and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic peoples
> > from the beginning.
> They were not included in the Amphictionic League at its inception, so
they
> were _not_ recognised as hellenic by the other Greeks 'from the
beginning'.
> In consequence they were later entrants - after they became hellenised.
The
> Macedonians got their votes in the League when Philip II acquired them
from
> his vassals the Phocians. Parroting bits out of Herodotus proves nothing
> against this stark evidence.
We are talking about language here fool, not polically groupings.
My statement stands and as far as the Amphictionic league I suggest you
look up the definition of 'league'.
Mark Warden
>
> > The attack on Evans himself is another matter - he'd better have some
> > evidence if he's going to accuse him of fabricating evidence.
>
> It's easy to accuse someone of fabricating evidence. If the evidence
doesn't
> exist, then it's fabricated. Everything to do with this alleged
> Indo-Europeans from the Caucasus (or take your pick) or the Aryan invasion
> on India or Aryans from Atlantis and so on was competely invented and is
> still perpetrated by blind racists. The evidence for them being
fabrications
> is in the complete lack of mythological, archaeological or historical
> evidence for them in ancient times. With regard to Evans and his ilk, they
> literally created things out of thin air and by completely disregarding
> evidence and creating evidence from the ground up.
>
I do not think that anyone ever creates evidence to support there theories
but they do interpret what they find and one's interpretation is usually
based on what they know.
Until someone can show that Evan's is wrong then the his interpretation is
as good as any.
--
Mark A. Warden CIM
Certified Internet Marketer
Web Position Certified
Internet Marketing Specialist
Search Engine Sleuth LLC
http://www.searchenginesleuth.com/
ICQ: 25795464
---------------------------------------------------
Want to snorkel Molokini? Well then you
should go to http://www.mauisnorkeling.com/
For the best Molokini snorkeling trip offered
here on Maui!
---------------------------------------------------
Neville Lindsay
>
>
> "Neville Lindsay" wrote
> > "June R Harton" wrote
> > > > The early Hellenists did not see it that way. They established the
> > > > Amphythionic Council as the custodian of Hellenism, and admitted
> > > > representatives of the following peoples: Aenianes, Beotians,
Dorians,
> > > > Dolopians, Ionians, Locrians, Magnetes, Malians, Perrhaebians,
> Phocians,
> > > > Phtiotic Achaeans, Thessalians.
> > > > Later ethnics moved in as they hellenised, either by consent or
> bribery
> > > > or force.
> > > And, folks, this guy is faulty also in some of his general
evaluations.
> > Poor June, she has no arguments, no logic, just pathetic diversionary
> abuse
> > and general whining.
>
>
> If you have NO texts to back up your statements then, Neville, I suggest
> you cease your ramblings and subsequent deceits.
>
Poor June, she has no arguments, no logic, just pathetic diversionary
abuse and general whining.
NL
Neville Lindsay
>
>
> "Neville Lindsay" wrote
> > "June R Harton" wrote
> > > and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic peoples
> > > from the beginning.
>
> > They were not included in the Amphictionic League at its inception, so
> they
> > were _not_ recognised as hellenic by the other Greeks 'from the
> beginning'.
> > In consequence they were later entrants - after they became hellenised.
> The
> > Macedonians got their votes in the League when Philip II acquired them
> from
> > his vassals the Phocians. Parroting bits out of Herodotus proves nothing
> > against this stark evidence.
>
> We are talking about language here fool, not polically groupings.
> My statement stands and as far as the Amphictionic league I suggest you
> look up the definition of 'league'.
>
> > > Miros, you are not correct in your evaluation of the Epirotes
> > > and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic peoples
> > > from the beginning.
You were not 'talking about language here fool' you were talking about
_peoples_ - your own phrase.
How about you stop this silly twisting of words - everyone can see you are
doing it whenever you are caught out. You have no response to my evidence so
you just try to pretend you said something else. Low behaviour indeed, and
so obvious to everyone.
NL
Neville Lindsay
openly.
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:8lvet9$2upq$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
>If I catch you lying again you will not know what hit you!
> from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
This is just one great bully. Can't sustain either evidence or a discussion,
drops down to abuse, and now to threats. June, you sure are a great example
of Macedonisn culture. I am sure your fellow Macedonians are proud of you
and thank you for the way you bring their image into public focus.
NL
ii
>
>
> ADR wrote:
> >Pagans.
>
> Let people be the way they want to. For as long as they don't harm their
neighbours and live in peace, they can be whatever they want.
S/he simply needs to consult a dictionary before using unfamiliar words...
ii
> Rather Phoenicians assimilated themselves...
"assimilated themselves" ?
Voyager
Oh yes ther's absolutely no doubt that you are
totaly idiot.
If you're posting here June words as abuses you
bring you image that you are an idiot exactly into
the public focus. Oh yeah.
Forget about history Neville aftrer all you have no
idea about and you're just doing a stupid black
propaganda.
Go sell some ice cream !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Voyager
Neville Lindsay wrote
Miros Pimenakis
June R Harton wrote:
>
> Miros, you are not correct in your evaluation of the Epirotes
> and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic peoples
> from the beginning.
>
> You are contributing to the delinquency of Neville.
>
> :)
Where exactly did you see me saying that they were not Greeks?
I've mentioned their racial background as it is known. What is wrong
with that?
If you want me to fight fabricators like Josif with lies or half truths
that is not my style but rather his.
And please leave Neville out of this. Obviously he does not know what
Josif stands for otherwise Neville was going to put him at his place
also.
MSP
>
> from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
Lector Priest
diverge?
> > There were Norse worshipping the Christian God while other Norse were
> still
> > worshiiping Thor, Odin, etc etc.
> >
> >
>
> Interesting idea, though I don't know of any sources on this. Perhaps
> someone else can give us a lead.
There is that reference above (in the red-heads thread) to red-heads being
worshippers of Typhon who, IIRC, was a Titan.
I also remember something about one with 50 heads and 100 hands. That could
allude to Ogmios? with the binding chains from his mouth to 50 followers.
There are always 2 hands per head. Just an odd notion.....
Hehe, and Odin was a Cyclops.....
Voyager
presenting evidence to suppor it.
WHERE IS YOURS ???????
You just writting this kind of lies and anathemas, exactly
because you have no evidence. ;-))))))))))))))))))
WHO 'S GONNA BELIVE YOU BOY ???????
SHOW AS YOUR.........EVIDENCE !!!!!!!!!!!
HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Voyager
Mango worte
June has nothing to do with Macedonian culture. June has no fellow
Macedonians. June just posts abuse and repetitive ramblings that are very
rarely on the topic.
Cheers
Mango
Kritifile
Is someone saying that the Phoenicians were canibals? I think not.
--
Anna
Mango
Neville Lindsay wrote in message ...
>Here is a message June sent to me direct - didn't have the guts to post it
>openly.
>
>"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:8lvet9$2upq$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>>If I catch you lying again you will not know what hit you!
>
>
>
discussion,
>drops down to abuse, and now to threats. June, you sure are a great example
>of Macedonisn culture. I am sure your fellow Macedonians are proud of you
>and thank you for the way you bring their image into public focus.
>
>NL
>
June has nothing to do with Macedonian culture. June has no fellow
Mango
Voyager <ji...@dmail.com> wrote in message
news:96507350...@athnrd02.forthnet.gr...
> June is thelling the truth and nothing but the truth and she's
> presenting evidence to suppor it.
> WHERE IS YOURS ???????
> You just writting this kind of lies and anathemas, exactly
> because you have no evidence. ;-))))))))))))))))))
> WHO 'S GONNA BELIVE YOU BOY ???????
> SHOW AS YOUR.........EVIDENCE !!!!!!!!!!!
>
> HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
>
> Voyager
>
>
> Mango worte
June R Harton
"Neville Lindsay" wrote
I wrote
>>If you have NO texts to back up your statements then, Neville, I suggest
>>you cease your ramblings and subsequent deceits.
> Poor June, she has no arguments, no logic, just pathetic diversionary
> abuse and general whining.
:)
Well done, Neville, you have shown everyone what I have
said about you is true.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
June R Harton
"Neville Lindsay" wrote
> > We are talking about language here fool, not polically groupings.
> > My statement stands and as far as the Amphictionic league I suggest you
> > look up the definition of 'league'.
> June, I repost your own words from above:
> > > > and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic peoples
> > > > from the beginning.
> _peoples_ - your own phrase.
You can't be THAT stupid, can you? Language IS related to the
peoples THEN.
Moron!
June R Harton
"Neville Lindsay" wrote
> Here is a message June sent to me direct - didn't have the guts to post it
> openly.
> >If I catch you lying again you will not know what hit you!
:)
> Can't sustain either evidence
Don't you realize yet, Neville, that you haven't posted one piece of
evidence?
>or a discussion,
Don't you realize yet, Neville, that you haven't sustain one crum of
discussion.
You foolish amateur!
June R Harton
"Mango" wrote
> June has nothing to do with Macedonian culture.
Mango is a West Bulgarian, folks.
One fairly good link on the West Bulgarian land of Fyrom follows.
Most of the information on the page is accurate:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/knigi_en/pk/pkoled.html
June R Harton
"Mango" wrote
> And the same goes for this Wannabe as well.
Mango, how about we let the people into some of your true history:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
(1834-1909) Faith and Nationality
Q: What is most sacred for man ?
A: His faith and nationality.
Q: What is your faith?
A: I am a christian.
Q: What is your nationality?
A: I am Bulgarian.
Q: Why?
A: Because my parents are Bulgarians and I speak Bulgarian.
Q: Cannot man change his faith and nationality?
A: There are such people who change their religion and nationality but they
commit the gravest sin and they are considered traitors by the world. They
are not dear to any one, everybody hates and despises them and that is why I
shall never think of such things and I shall always try to help such misled
people to find the true path.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
K Shapkarev's "Bulgarsky Boukvar" 1868, p45
[Bulgarian Primer - in the language of the Macedonian Bulgarians]
Kuzman Shapkarev was the greatest collector and publisher of ethnographic
material in Vardar Macedonia. Born in the city of Ohrid, he spent some 30
years (1855-84) as a teacher in this part of Macedonia. He published
hundreds of articles and monographs on the dialects and folklore in the
Periodic Journal of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Bqlgarskoto Knijovno
Drujestvo). His major work is "Sbornik ot bqlgarski narodni umotvoreniya" in
three volumes, Sofia, 1891-94.
From the
"Autobiography" (1864)
of Kouzman Shapkarev
The state of education in Macedonia
"Genealogy and life of Kouzman, the son of Tasev (Atanasov), the son of
Paskal, the son of Mihail Shapkarev from Ochrida. Mihail Shapkarev, a
Bulgarian, born in the village of Leskovets, which is at one hour's walk
east of Ochrida, in the Western part of Petrino Mountain, was the father of
two sons called Hadji Peter and Paskal. According to the usual custom of
that time, Mihail went to work in Constantinople and since he stayed a very
long time there, without visiting his family, his wife took her little
children and went on horseback to her husband in Constantinople. After
staying for a while there she returned home again. That is why she was
called later "Stamboulka".
When the end of my stay in Bitolya drew near, that is, when I finished my
studies there, I had to look for a job as a teacher. My teacher Atanasy took
the trouble to find me a job. He tried to place me in Turnovo (a small
village in the district of Bitolya) but failed. Then he tried through Georgy
Tsolev, the best friend and secret adviser of Atanasy, ie mine as well, then
through Atanasy and Yanakiev, to get an appointment for me as teacher in the
village of Neveska or some other village. Meanwhile some people from
Koukoush, of whom Stameno Petsov was one, put up at our inn once and invited
me for a teacher in Koukoush (where the spark of love for our mother
Bulgarian tongue had not been kindled yet). I am very much obliged
especially to two of my teachers - one of them Mile Skopachev, who being a
good psalm singer, taught me to sing and understand a little of
hymn-singing; while the other - Kostadin Hr. Ouzounov, was the first to
inspire me with the desire to study my native language. He gave me a Serbian
primar (because there were no Bulgarian primars in our part of the country,
and no one even thought of studying Bulgarian, while now, thank God, the
situation is quite changed), taught me to understand the letters and kindled
the first sparks of love for our language in me. God bless his soul in
heaven! That year I studied geography, mathematics, ecclesiastical history,
together with Ancon Mitanov and Vasil Dyamandiev.
During the three years of my being a teacher in Strouga two important things
in my life took place there. The first was that I introduced in school for
the first time the teaching of our native language the Bulgarian language,
which about a century (70 years) ago was in danger of disappearing
completely. The reason for this introduction was closely connected with the
late Dimiter Miladinov, of whom we shall speak more later on in this book.
This worthy man, being a teacher in Greek for many years, was naturally for
a while a supporter of the Greeks and persecutor of the Bulgarians. But
during the last years of his life (just like St. Paul) he was aware of his
delusion, in which not only all Bulgarians in Macedonia but even he himself
had fallen, and renouncing his former errors he zealously worked even to the
day of his death for the spiritual revival of the people, and the
introduction of the Bulgarian language in the Bulgarian churches and
schools, in which the Greek language was used at that time. The endeavours
of this worthy man inspired me also to introduce the Bulgarian language
which I learnt to read a little as early as 1856 in Ochrida from Kostadin
Hr. Ouzounov - in my school. But I lacked the necessary books. I received
help, however, from the same person. Because after he returned to his place
in Prilep he sent me 15 Serbian primars with church letters. Then after he
went to Koukoush he sent me a sufficient number of Bulgarian primars and
histories, published by the Archimandrite Parteny Zografsky, the present
bishop of Polyanin (Koukoush). This is the first event. And the second one
is that at the end of my second year there (Oct. 30th, 1858) I was engaged
to Elisaveta D. Miladinova, and married her five years later [Sept. 25th,
1863].
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
Neville Lindsay
>
>
> "Neville Lindsay" wrote
> I wrote
> >>If you have NO texts to back up your statements then, Neville, I suggest
> >>you cease your ramblings and subsequent deceits.
> > Poor June, she has no arguments, no logic, just pathetic diversionary
> > abuse and general whining.
> Well done, Neville, you have shown everyone what I have
> said about you is true.
Still at it. Please keep it up, you are very persuasive, though I don't
think you know just what you are demonstrating, otherwise you would stop
this silly nonsense.
NL
Neville Lindsay
> > > We are talking about language here fool, not polically groupings.
> > June, I repost your own words from above:
> > > > > Miros, you are not correct in your evaluation of the Epirotes
> > > > > and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic
> > > > > peoples from the beginning.
> > You were not 'talking about language here fool' you were talking about
> > _peoples_ - your own phrase.
>
> You can't be THAT stupid, can you? Language IS related to the
> peoples THEN. Moron!
Well they spoke a language incomprehensible to Greeks, so by your own
twisted logic, they were not Greeks either by language or ethnicity. The
Greeks certainly did not classify them as kindred until they hellenised
themselves. Please try to keep up with the conversation - a little more
thought and a lot less abuse. Trying to be a school bully is not going to
work.
NL
Neville Lindsay
>
> "Neville Lindsay" wrote
> > Here is a message June sent to me direct - didn't have the guts to post
it
> > "June R Harton" wrote
> > >If I catch you lying again you will not know what hit you!
> :)
Proud of trying to be a schoolyard standover girl?
> > Can't sustain either evidence
>
> Don't you realize yet, Neville, that you haven't posted one piece of
> evidence?
Says a lot about your comprehension if you missed it.
> >or a discussion,
>
> Don't you realize yet, Neville, that you haven't sustain one crum of
> discussion.
You do carry on. Name calling is your limit. Leave the kindergarten behind
ant try to join the adult world.
> You foolish amateur!
Very powerful argument.
NL
Mango
Paternal grandmother born in what is now Greece in 1908 in a village then
called Sveta Petka. Paternal Grandfather born in Velusina in 1907, Maternal
grandmother born in Gavato in 1905, maternal grandmother born in Capari in
1903. All of them Macedonians. All of them born in the area covered by the
map you often post of Ancient Macedonia. What is your true history June?
Cheers
Mango
BTW, how does what you post below fit in with your other often posted
argument that referring to the slavic population of Macedonia as Macedonians
was an invention of Tito in 1944.
June R Harton wrote in message
<8m68sb$l0e$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>...
June R Harton
"Neville Lindsay" wrote
> "June R Harton" wrote
> > > > We are talking about language here fool, not polically groupings.
> > > June, I repost your own words from above:
> > > > > > Miros, you are not correct in your evaluation of the Epirotes
> > > > > > and Macedonians. Herodotos has them BOTH as Hellenic
> > > > > > peoples from the beginning.
> > > You were not 'talking about language here fool' you were talking about
> > > _peoples_ - your own phrase.
> > You can't be THAT stupid, can you? Language IS related to the
> > peoples THEN. Moron!
> Well they spoke a language incomprehensible to Greeks, so by your own
> twisted logic, they were not Greeks either by language or ethnicity.
Where are you getting your misinformation. That is entirely incorrect that
they spoke a language incomprehensible to Greeks.
> The
> Greeks certainly did not classify them as kindred until they hellenised
> themselves.
You are generalizing (incorrectly) again.
All the ancient historians indeed stated that they WERE Greeks in one way
or another. You are exremely lacking in information in this area.