Holocaust Calendar: January 16

Doktor Tavische

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Jan 15, 2001, 12:55:47 AM1/15/01

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On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 05:07:56 +0000 (UTC), kmc...@nizkor.org.nospam wrote:

>[Follow-ups set]
>
>January 15
>
>1944
>
>Three hundred fifty-one Gypsies of Belgian, French, Dutch,
>German, and Norwegian nationality are included in the twenty-
>third deportation convoy from the Belgian transit camp of
>Malines (in Flemish, Mechelen) to Auschwitz. There are
>thirteen Roma (Gypsy) survivors after the war. The same
>transport includes 657 Belgian-Jewish deportees, of whom 140
>men and 98 women survive initial selection on the ramp at
>Auschwitz-Birkenau. (USHMM, 1994. Pg. 25)
>
>
> Work Cited
>
>USHMM (United States Holocaust Memorial Museum). Fifty
> Years Ago: Darkness Before Dawn: Days of Remembrance, April
> 3-10, 1994. Washington, D.C.: 1994

That was almost fifty six years ago!

What about this relevant post which you continually avoid:

We know that the Nizkor website relies on charitable donations in order to
survive. We also accept that any organization whose survival depends on
charitable donations should make its records open to the public. Will Ken
McVay answer these questions as he is the director of Nizkor!

Questions:
1) What is the tax number of Nizkor?
2) What is the physical address of Nizkor?
3) What is the phone number of Nizkor?
4) Where can one find the organizational papers for Nizkor?
a) How many people compose the Nizkor staff?
b) What are the financial responsibilities of Nizkor?
5) What is the evidence offered that Nizkor is authorized to
solicit tax free contributions?
6) How much money does Nizkor Org receive yearly as charitable donations?
7) You show below that you pay yourself-- what is your yearly pay?

http://x71.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=620760630
Subject: Re: How much of a cut does the B'nai Brith get from Nizkor?
Date: 05/08/2000
Author: Kenneth McVay, OBC <kmc...@vex.net>

>f) Does Ken McVay pay himself a salary for his work for Nizkor?

Yup - I also appreciate revenue from public speaking and site advertising.

~~~~~~~End of DejaCom Archival Snippet~~~~~~

8) Is Nizkor proper (it's office and main facilities) located in a back
room of your own residence as this says?
http://www.Xgeocities.com/dcjarviks/Idler/vIn15.htmlX
(Remove the X's to view the site, this is to help prevent McVay from
spamming the search engines.)

"A Voyage to Nanaimo-- It takes two hours to cross the Georgia Strait by
ferry from Vancouver, British Columbia, another half-hour by jitney from
the Nanaimo terminal to reach the home of Kenneth N. McVay, webmaster for
The Nizkor Project . The address is an ordinary suburban split-level in a
middle-class neighborhood. There is nothing distinctive about its
location. .... I am taken to a back room, filled with computer equipment,
monitors, and books... Seated in front of the array is McVay, apparently a
50-something computer nerd. He is tall, thin, with short hair and glasses,
wired to the world through his ISP. The Nizkor project which McVay runs
from this room in the back of his house... " <END>

A question for all reading this:
How many organizations which receive charitable contributions operate from
the backroom of the director's home? He claims to be non-profit and it
appears that he would have a low overhead-- so how much money does Ken
McVay receive for his backroom operation?

9) What sort of legitimate organization keeps files on private citizens
and publicly defames people on its "hit list" as yours does as proven in
these documented posts?
http://x67.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712310574&fmt=text
"Nizkor's Ken McVay's Current DEFAMATION Hypocrisy For The Archives"
http://x67.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712391781&fmt=text
"Name Call and Personal Attack is All Nizkor's Ken McVay Can Muster"
http://x61.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712299305&fmt=text
"How Nizkor Director Ken McVay Acts When Exposed as a Liar"

10 ) Why should anyone wish to donate to an organization who has a
director who's been caught in numerous lies in the past few days
especially as documented here?
http://x75.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=711985593&fmt=text
"Attention: Ken McVay-- Speaking of Lying! Why Do YOU Keep Dodging Proof
YOU Have a San Antonio Money Purse? MUST HAVE POST FOR YOUR ARCHIVES!"

FOLKS THE ABOVE QUESTIONS ARE HONEST AND THEY SHOULD BE ANSWERED.
WOULD YOU MAKE CHARITABLE DONATIONS FOR AN ORGANIZATION WHICH IS
DEPICTED ABOVE? Any evasion by McVay should warrant your suspicions.

Doc Tavish

~~~END~~~

The above honest questions were answered in a very nasty and rude manner
in which McVay intimidated lawsuits in order to silence me as shown here:
http://x58.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712478164
"Re: Is Ken McVay's WWW.NIZKOR.ORG A Sham Which Gets its Director Spending
Money?"

I then answered Mr. McVay's rude intimidation with this post and TWO
additional followups which elaborated more on the first post:
http://x54.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712697226&fmt=text
"Now That NIZKOR.ORG's Ken McVay Brings Up Lawsuits-- Let's Talk About His
and Nizkor's Civil Liability R 2"
The first expansion of the above was this post:
http://x52.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712741708&fmt=text
The above installment shows illegal subpoenas being issued and the
criminal activity waged against me that I have endured for over a year!
http://x59.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712805233&fmt=text
The second expansion elaborates on a Nizkor donor and his criminal
activities.

Also of interest:

http://x76.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712094915
"How Nizkor Director Ken McVay Acts When Exposed as a Liar aka Re:
Attention: FatBoy: WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? R 3"

http://x53.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=711985593&fmt=text
"Attention: Ken McVay-- Speaking of Lying! Why Do YOU Keep Dodging Proof
YOU Have a San Antonio Money Purse? MUST HAVE POST FOR YOUR ARCHIVES!"

http://x61.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712310574&fmt=text
"Nizkor's Ken McVay's Current DEFAMATION Hypocrisy For The Archives"

http://x74.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712363191&fmt=text
"Nizkor's Operations Apparently Appears to be Ken McVay's House!
Charitable Donations Support This?" MUST READ!

http://x75.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712373648
"Rather Than Answer For His Dishonesty Nizkor's Ken McVay Resorts to
Personal Attack on Don Ellis R 2"

http://x52.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712392706&fmt=text
"Name Call and Personal Attack is All Nizkor's Ken McVay Can Muster aka
Re: Scottie's Head Apparently Appears to be Filled with Camel Dung!"
The above post shows Nizkor director Ken McVay and a Nizkor supporter
reducing themselves to making personal attack rather than refuting facts.

http://x59.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712660159&fmt=text
"Nizkor's Ken McVay Caught in Another Lie? aka Re: Is Ken McVay's
WWW.NIZKOR.ORG A Sham...."

Buster Cherry

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Jan 15, 2001, 5:14:30 AM1/15/01

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kmc...@nizkor.org.nospam wrote in <93u0jc$2cm8$1...@news.tht.net>:

>[Follow-ups set]
>
>January 15
>
>1944
>
>Three hundred fifty-one Gypsies of Belgian, French, Dutch,
>German, and Norwegian nationality are included in the twenty-
>third deportation convoy from the Belgian transit camp of
>Malines (in Flemish, Mechelen) to Auschwitz. There are
>thirteen Roma (Gypsy) survivors after the war. The same
>transport includes 657 Belgian-Jewish deportees, of whom 140
>men and 98 women survive initial selection on the ramp at
>Auschwitz-Birkenau. (USHMM, 1994. Pg. 25)
>
>
> Work Cited
>
>USHMM (United States Holocaust Memorial Museum). Fifty
> Years Ago: Darkness Before Dawn: Days of Remembrance, April
> 3-10, 1994. Washington, D.C.: 1994

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE BRUTAL COMMUNIST JEWISH ACTIVITY?
WHAT MATTERS MORE? WHAT HAPPENED LONG AGO OR WHAT IS
HAPPENING NOW? LOOK WHAT JEWS ARE DOING.

On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:53:36 GMT, ewan_j...@my-deja.com wrote:

>One need only take a look at the Israeli Kibbutz system (a communist
>collective if ever there was one) to see that the jew heart pumps pure
>communism.

Look what Jews have even said concerning your brilliant observation:

http://www.shamash.org/tanach/tanach/commentary/oxford-
judaism/capitalism-communism
(Link active January 13, 2001)

This section is from the document '/Jewish Lists/oxford-judaism/930810'.

To: Jewis...@chochma.demon.co.uk, OxfordS...@chochma.demon.co.uk,
An...@chochma.demon.co.uk
Subject: Capitalism, Communism, and Technology in Jewish Thought

Dear Oxford-Judaism Subscribers,

Behold... the latest essay. This one is an unedited one about the
medium you are using to access these thoughts... computers, as well
as communism and capitalism. All comments are of course welcome....

[...]

A Jewish Approach to Communism

Still, Abarbanel's comments on the nature of Capitalism as evil must
make us think again about the typical Jewish reaction to Communism.
Since Marxism has often taken the form of an extremely G-dless
totalitarian tool, it has been easy to dismiss such an ideology as
something that Judaism could never embrace.

However, G-dlessness is not a necessary characteristic of Communism.
Communism can even be described as a moral alternative to the
material excesses of Capitalism. To cite a contemporary Jewish
example: there are many kibbutzim in Israel who live by the standards
of economic collectivism, while religious kibbutzim uphold the banner
of Jewish observance. On the other hand, many kibbutzim are not only
non-religious but even violently anti-religious, such as the
Shomer-Haztair movement. The fact that a community in Israel adopts
the kibbutz way of life does not force a person in either direction,
and the adoption of Communism is not necessarily linked to atheism
either...

... According to Capitalism, what led the Soviet Union to its final
collapse more than any other reason was the complete failure of its
economic system. ...The people could see that the ideals
of Marx had not been achieved, and were dissatisfied. So the Soviet
Union stagnated, whereas western materialism flourished- at least for
those empowered economically....

(This is also in the same document. Doc Tavish comment)

Lubavitch as a Socialist Collectivist System

The standard capitalist approach is vastly incomplete and even
un-Jewish because it assumes, as its basic premise, that people can
only be motivated by reason of material gain.

(Does anyone have any doubt that Jews have strong leanings to
socialism/communism? Read all the links below and make an intelligent
decision. Remember all that I showed you is from a Jewish mailing
list. Not my words at all! Doc Tavish comment)

<END>

Jeffrey G. Brown

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Jan 15, 2001, 9:22:41 AM1/15/01

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Ken McVay, are you a homosexual?

Doktor Tavische

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Jan 15, 2001, 6:44:17 PM1/15/01

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On 15 Jan 2001 22:38:20 GMT, ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Karen Gordon)
wrote:

>
>x-no-archive: yes

> kmc...@nizkor.org.nospam wrote:
>>>January 15
>>>
>>>1944
>>>
>>>Three hundred fifty-one Gypsies of Belgian, French, Dutch,
>>>German, and Norwegian nationality are included in the twenty-
>>>third deportation convoy from the Belgian transit camp of
>>>Malines (in Flemish, Mechelen) to Auschwitz. There are
>>>thirteen Roma (Gypsy) survivors after the war. The same
>>>transport includes 657 Belgian-Jewish deportees, of whom 140
>>>men and 98 women survive initial selection on the ramp at
>>>Auschwitz-Birkenau. (USHMM, 1994. Pg. 25)
>
>

>Doktor Tavische (NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com) writes:
>> That was almost fifty six years ago!
>

>(K): This is precisely what is being said about Jews today: they will
>NEVER let the world forget how THEY suffered - even if it wasn't the ones
>who are doing the reminding that did the actual suffering. Jews are the
>only persecuted group that go on, and on, and on, and on.... reminding
>the world that they suffered. Half a hundred years ago doesn't matter a
>damn to them. The fact that such atrocities are STILL going on all over
>the world to other ethnic groups and cultures..... that is of no concern
>to them. What they insist on doing is keeping the hatred and the violence
>alive in everyone's mind to further their own cause: that of elevating the
>Jewish cause and THEIR rights to a level that anyone with a conscience
>would be afraid to ever criticize.
>A very well-orchestrated game, played by millions of Jews all over the world.
>Forget the horror and get on with their lives? Not Jews. They're 'God's
>chosen people', after all.

>
>Doktor Tavische (NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com) writes:
>> What about this relevant post which you continually avoid:
>>
>> We know that the Nizkor website relies on charitable donations in order to
>> survive. We also accept that any organization whose survival depends on
>> charitable donations should make its records open to the public. Will Ken
>> McVay answer these questions as he is the director of Nizkor!
>>
>> Questions:
>> 1) What is the tax number of Nizkor?
>> 2) What is the physical address of Nizkor?
>> 3) What is the phone number of Nizkor?
>> 4) Where can one find the organizational papers for Nizkor?
>> a) How many people compose the Nizkor staff?
>> b) What are the financial responsibilities of Nizkor?
>> 5) What is the evidence offered that Nizkor is authorized to
>> solicit tax free contributions?
>> 6) How much money does Nizkor Org receive yearly as charitable donations?
>> 7) You show below that you pay yourself-- what is your yearly pay?
>

>(K): You'll never get any answers to the above questions from McVay. He's
>simply a front for the B'nai Brith of Canada - he uses their address in
>North York, Ontario to solicit funds. (He'll even take 'grams of gold' as
>donation funds!)
>
>Any money to him or the B'nai Brith or the 'League for Human Rights'is money
>that will find its way to funding continued hatred by the Jews - be it here
>in North America or in the Middle East. Let 'god's chosen people' get their
>funding from god. The rest of us have issues to deal with from this century.

Amen Sister Amen-- May God always be with you.

Sincerely,
Doc Tavish

Jeffrey G. Brown

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Jan 15, 2001, 6:51:57 PM1/15/01

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In article <is276t0qh8rut9pee...@4ax.com>,

Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie "BOOGERMAN" Bradbury (sonn...@flash.net) wrote:

> Amen Sister Amen-- May God always be with you.

God is never with those who choose hatred and lies, Scottie. The other guy
handles that department.

JGB

================================================================== =====
Jeffrey G. Brown jg_b...@my-deja.com
For centuries, philosophers and theologians have debated what it means
to be human. Perhaps the answer has eluded us because it is so simple.
To be human is to choose. - "The Outer Limits: Feasibility Study", 1997

usenetter

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Jan 17, 2001, 2:12:50 PM1/17/01

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In article <93u0jc$2cm8$1...@news.tht.net>, <kmc...@nizkor.org.nospam>
wrote:

> [Follow-ups set]
>
> January 15
>
> 1944
>
> Three hundred fifty-one Gypsies ... [snip]

....................

I have some questions about the Holocaust.

1. How many Jews were murdered by Germany and its collaborators
while Hitler was chancellor?
2. How many of them were murdered in concentration camps?
3. How many of them were murdered at Auschwitz?
4. How many living Jews were found in concentration camps when the
camps were liberated?
5. In what well-documented sources (such as well-documented books
or articles) may I read the numbers which would answer my 4 questions
above (or permit me to figure out the answers)?

I have read in unreliable sources that six million is the correct
answer to my above question number one. Is six million the correct
answer? If so, what is the confidence interval: six million give or
take one million, six million give or take fifty thousand, etc.?

spamsMpUaNmNspam

Kenneth McVay, OBC

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Jan 17, 2001, 4:37:29 PM1/17/01

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http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/

--
"...I note that on the few occasions of which I am aware where purveyors of
anti-Semitic propaganda have endeavoured to justify their materials in
court on the facts and the merits, they have been singularly unsuccessful..."
(http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/scully-olga/reason.html)

Larry R

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Jan 17, 2001, 5:35:18 PM1/17/01

to

The Germans, Nazis, and collaborators were excellent record keepers. Every
Jew that was rounded up and sent to a concentration camp was tattooed with a
number. These numbers were catalogued into records. Every Jew who died while
in a camp, whether shot, gassed, beaten to or worked to death, died while
being experimented on medically etc. was recorded and affirmed by number.
All these records in turn were kept and cross checked by Nazis and staff.
From these post war captured records records and verified by German and Nazi
officials, by their own calculation they killed 5,970,000 Jews. I am sure
non were added, although I suspect that they may have missed a few.
Also seized were Nazi documentaries with regard to this genociding, as well
as movies of mass killings, gassings, and medical experimentation conducted
inhumanely without anesthesia.
There were @ 10 1/2 million Jews in Europe at the outbreak of WW11.
Just to put things into perspective for any who cannot fathom the magnitude
of this atrocity, and the horrific participation of some European helpmates.
Look at these figures:
Romania 50%, Poland 85%, Latvia 90%, Czechoslovakia 83%, Germany 87%,
Austria 69%, Greece 81%, Yugoslavia 74%, anyway you get the idea.
If you think perhaps that there was nothing that the above mentioned
Countries could do about it your wrong.
Denmark had @ 7000 Jews. The Danes saved all but 202 from the Nazi gas
chambers.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
LARRY R.

"usenetter" <USERz...@spamajmunn.comEMAIL> wrote in message
news:170120012012501850%USERz...@spamajmunn.comEMAIL...

Martin

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Jan 17, 2001, 8:53:41 PM1/17/01

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On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:35:18 -0500, in soc.culture.jewish in
article <zAk96.277$Y92.61...@news1.tor.primus.ca> "Larry
R" <fut...@primus.ca> wrote:

>The Germans, Nazis, and collaborators were excellent record keepers. Every
>Jew that was rounded up and sent to a concentration camp was tattooed with a
>number. These numbers were catalogued into records. Every Jew who died while
>in a camp, whether shot, gassed, beaten to or worked to death, died while
>being experimented on medically etc. was recorded and affirmed by number.
>All these records in turn were kept and cross checked by Nazis and staff.
>From these post war captured records records and verified by German and Nazi
>officials, by their own calculation they killed 5,970,000 Jews. I am sure
>non were added, although I suspect that they may have missed a few.
>Also seized were Nazi documentaries with regard to this genociding, as well
>as movies of mass killings, gassings, and medical experimentation conducted
>inhumanely without anesthesia.
>There were @ 10 1/2 million Jews in Europe at the outbreak of WW11.
>Just to put things into perspective for any who cannot fathom the magnitude
>of this atrocity, and the horrific participation of some European helpmates.
>Look at these figures:
>Romania 50%, Poland 85%, Latvia 90%, Czechoslovakia 83%, Germany 87%,
>Austria 69%, Greece 81%, Yugoslavia 74%, anyway you get the idea.
>If you think perhaps that there was nothing that the above mentioned
>Countries could do about it your wrong.
>Denmark had @ 7000 Jews. The Danes saved all but 202 from the Nazi gas
>chambers.

They sent them across the sea to Sweden. What should, for
example, Poles do to save their three millions Jews?

And remember that Danes were, in Nazi racial terminology,
Germanic Aryans and as such were treated with much less
brutality that Slavic "subhumans"on the East.

The Danes, Norwegians, Dutch and English were to be
reeducated into good nazis, while the Slavs and Celts were
the be reduced to slaves.

If a Dane was shot for a resistance action, in Poland or
Ukraine, for example, for the same thing entire village
would be exterminated.

>A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
>LARRY R.

Best wishes

Martin
--
If I had had the money during the last ten days, I would have
been able to make a good deal on the stock exchange. The time has
now come when with wit and very little money one can really make a
killing in London.

Karl Marx, 1864

Larry R

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Jan 18, 2001, 12:02:14 AM1/18/01

to

The"Poles". It took 3 armored divisions and 3 months of overhead bombing of
the Warsaw Ghetto to subdue it. The Germans were so frightened of going in
that they had to resort to mass destruction of the area.
Defended by Jewish teenagers for the most part, they had to kill a nazi to
get a gun. Once armed it became a death trap for any German soldier who was
sent in.
The Poles were virulently anti-Semitic prior to WW11, so they for the most
part couldn't give a damn about the Jews. Had they provided the Ghetto with
guns and access to underground retaliation, the Germans could have been
slowed to a standstill in their attempt to genocide an armless population.
Sanctuary was not available by the Churches, and the general population
could have helped by hiding some, or help them leave Poland.
LARRY R.
"Martin " <arti...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3a664b1d...@news.uni-mannheim.de...

usenetter

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Jan 18, 2001, 6:04:02 AM1/18/01

to

Thank you very much for answering my question number 2 (number of Jews
murdered in the concentration camps): 5,970,000 according to German
government records.

How many of them were murdered at Auschwitz?

Many Jews were murdered outside of the camps. For example, many were
murdered in their homes, in ghettos, or in transit. Are there any
high-quality estimates of the total number of Jews murdered (not just
those murdered in the camps)?

spamsMpUaNmNspam

.......................

In article <zAk96.277$Y92.61...@news1.tor.primus.ca>, Larry R
<fut...@primus.ca> wrote:

> The Germans, Nazis, and collaborators were excellent record keepers. Every
> Jew that was rounded up and sent to a concentration camp was tattooed with a
> number. These numbers were catalogued into records. Every Jew who died while
> in a camp, whether shot, gassed, beaten to or worked to death, died while
> being experimented on medically etc. was recorded and affirmed by number.
> All these records in turn were kept and cross checked by Nazis and staff.
> From these post war captured records records and verified by German and Nazi
> officials, by their own calculation they killed 5,970,000 Jews. I am sure
> non were added, although I suspect that they may have missed a few.
> Also seized were Nazi documentaries with regard to this genociding, as well
> as movies of mass killings, gassings, and medical experimentation conducted
> inhumanely without anesthesia.

> There were @ 10 1/2 million Jews in Europe at the outbreak of WW11. .... [snip]

> >
> > > .... [snip] [Follow-ups set]

Doktor Tavische

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Jan 18, 2001, 7:22:29 AM1/18/01

to

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:04:02 +0100, usenetter
<USERz...@spamajmunn.comEMAIL> wrote:

>
>Thank you very much for answering my question number 2 (number of Jews
>murdered in the concentration camps): 5,970,000 according to German
>government records.

Why hasn't anyone ever asked why things always happen to Jews in even
numbers!? We now see 5,970,000 instead of 6,000,000.

Look at this:
http://x67.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=644211078
Subject: A Question On Hair as It Relates to The "Holocaust" Revisited
(aka Hairy question for Jews.)
Date: 07/09/2000
Author: Doc Tavish <doc_t...@NOSPAMmy-deja.com>

John Oden <nabu...@voicenet14.com14> wrote in article
<IOfs.6$zz2.1...@news2.voicenet.com>...

Original article may be found at this click link:
http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=313139391
"Hairy question for Jews."

> Once a month, or so it seems, the (sic) "History" channel plays the
> miniseries "War and Remembrance." On Dec. 28, 1997 two Jews were
> commentating between dream sequences, er, the movie. The female
> professor said that, during the Holoco$t (tm), females' heads were
> shaved so that the evil Nazis could use the hair for the war effort.
> And, according to the Jew law professor, 20,000 TONS of hair
> were taken at Aushwitz alone. In fact, there was so much hair
> that, when the war was over, they didn't know what to do with it.
>
> If 20,000 TONS of hair were shaved, what was it used for?
>
> How many heads were shaved in order to get 20,000 TONS of hair?
>
> If 20,000 tons of hair were placed in one big pile, would it exceed the
> height of Mount Everest?
>
> Is this an accepted and supported Holoco$t (tm) story? If so, I think it
> would be one of the more believable ones.

I'll bet you a moldy stale bagel and a cheap bottle of Mogen David wine
they won't answer. Your post is too brilliant of a question and they will
avoid it. I'd like to know myself how many heads would have to be shaved
to get 20,000 tons.

They claim that the Germans "relocated" 6,000,000 of them. 20,000 tons
equals 40,000,000 pounds so divide that by 6,000,000 and you get each head
would have had to had 6.66 pounds of hair shaved from it! Interesting that
666 came up! Now we know that they didn't shave pubic hair don't we? Well
they didn't did they? It boggles the mind! Now how many of those
"relocated" were Hassidics or those with the beards? I don't believe those
beards would have added up to 6.66 pounds either!

It looks as if the Kosher Kids are seeking to lay another lie on everyone
now.

I think Joel Rosenberg's beard may weigh in at seven pounds though! :-)

[...]

Subject: Re: Hairy question for Jews.
From: t...@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Date: 1998/01/06
Message-ID: <34bd9d7c...@dnews.pacificnet.net>

>Once a month, or so it seems, the (sic) "History" channel plays the
>miniseries "War and Remembrance." On Dec. 28, 1997 two Jews were
>commentating between dream sequences, er, the movie. The female professor
>said that, during the Holoco$t (tm), females' heads were shaved so that the
>evil Nazis could use the hair for the war effort. And, according to the Jew
>law professor, 20,000 TONS of hair were taken at Aushwitz alone. In fact,
>there was so much hair that, when the war was over, they didn't know what to
>do with it.

20,000 tons equals 40,000,000 (million) pounds. Hair is very
light. Even if we figured the unlikely amount of 1 pound of hair from each
victim, we would have 40,000,000 (million) victims. That would be just at
Auschwitz.

Now if we consider the hair only came from women, as stated
above, we would have maybe 70 to 80,000,000 (million) victims
including men.

Now the above says the 20,000 tons was what was left over. So
we might consider that say half of the that amount was shipped off for
mattresses or whatever. In that case we might consider the number more
like 100,000,000 (million) victims.

Now lets consider the more likelihood that only a half a pound
was taken from each victim. In that case we might have something more like
150,000,000 (million) victims.

This then would be, considering the alleged time frames for
the mass extermination at Auschwitz, about 450,000 victims a day being
exterminated. That would be around 18,000 an hour, or 3,000 a minute, or
50 a second.

This was from a Jewish lawyer and a Jewish professor? That
figures.

~~~~ End of DejaCom Archival Excerpt ~~~~

http://x69.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=582499288
Subject: Re: A real simple question for Ken McVay?
Date: 02/07/2000
Author: Doc Tavish <doc_t...@NOSPAMmy-deja.com>

On 6-Feb-2000, Mike Kalvatis <mkalX...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Did 6,000,000 jews die in the holocaust?
>
> Mike

I'd like to know why is the number so round! Why not 6,000,001 or
5,999,999 or 6,243,521 or even 5,756,015? Why the "sacred" six million?
What are the odds that six million Jews died? Care to 'splain this one
Ken?

Doc Tavish

~~End of DejaCom Archival Post~~

http://x62.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=702803360
Subject: Re: Where are the Jews...
Date: 12/09/2000
Author: Doc Tavish <doc_tavi...@scottsmail.com>

On 09 Dec 2000 03:18:05 GMT, Sara <cata...@concentric.net> wrote:

>In article <9fv23ts2t12t2sk89...@4ax.com>,
>doc_tavi...@scottsmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:54:32 -0800, "news.bctel.com"
>> <and...@earthling.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >If the holocaust did not happen, where did the 100,000 Dutch Jews go?
>> >They never returned to Holland after the war.

>> Where did you get the number of 100,000? Who claims a 100,000 Jews left
>> and never returned? Jews?
>>
>> Doc Tavish

>If there's one thing I learned from living in the Netherlands, it's that
>the Dutch keep meticulous records. When we moved to a town, we had to
>register at the Town Hall and supply a great deal of information,
>including religion.
>
>The figure of 100,000 comes from (among other places) "The Encyclopedeia
>of the Holocaust," published in 1990.

Written by Jews?

>(I read it in Shermer's book as well, but I think that's where he got his
>figures from.)

Isn't Shermer a Jew name?

>According to Shermer, "The figures were derived from population,
>demographics, taking the numbers of Jews registered living in every
>village, town and city, the number reported transported to camps, the
>number liberated from camps, the number killed in "special actions" by
>the Einsatzgruppen, and the number remaining alive after the war."
>There were a minimum of 100,000 Dutch Jews "missing" after the war, Mr.
>Bradbury.

How come things always happen to Jews in nice even rounded off numbers?
100,000 Dutch Jews and 6,000,000 Jews died in the "Holocaust"

Doc Tavish

>Sara

~~End of DejaCom Archival Post~~

John Morris

unread,

Jan 18, 2001, 7:37:12 AM1/18/01

to

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Hash: SHA1

In <knmd6tkgehad3qe4a...@4ax.com> in alt.revisionism,
on Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:22:29 GMT, Doktor Tavische
<NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:04:02 +0100, usenetter
><USERz...@spamajmunn.comEMAIL> wrote:

>>Thank you very much for answering my question number 2 (number of
>>Jews murdered in the concentration camps): 5,970,000 according to
>>German government records.

>Why hasn't anyone ever asked why things always happen to Jews in
>even numbers!? We now see 5,970,000 instead of 6,000,000.

Because the numbers are estimates. Anyone who knows the rudiments of
statistics knows estimates are given in round numbers.

But you are not expected to know that or even to be able to absorb
the idea.

- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>

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Doktor Tavische

unread,

Jan 18, 2001, 6:31:15 PM1/18/01

to

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:37:12 GMT, John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>In <knmd6tkgehad3qe4a...@4ax.com> in alt.revisionism,
>on Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:22:29 GMT, Doktor Tavische
><NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:04:02 +0100, usenetter
>><USERz...@spamajmunn.comEMAIL> wrote:
>
>>>Thank you very much for answering my question number 2 (number of
>>>Jews murdered in the concentration camps): 5,970,000 according to
>>>German government records.
>
>>Why hasn't anyone ever asked why things always happen to Jews in
>>even numbers!? We now see 5,970,000 instead of 6,000,000.

>Because the numbers are estimates.

So you are admitting they aren't factual then!?

>Anyone who knows the rudiments of statistics knows estimates are given
>in round numbers.

Is the death toll for WWII and the Viet Nam Watr rounded off too!?
I don't think so!

>But you are not expected to know that or even to be able to absorb
>the idea.

You can't accept the fact Jews can distort figures either!

Doc Tavish

bpg

unread,

Jan 18, 2001, 7:49:55 PM1/18/01

to

What I find disturbing is the posting of Zionist hate messages to the
Polish, Russian, Ukrainian and other lists of people who have suffered
equally under Hitler's Nazi and Stalin's Jewish-Bolshevik terror.

There is at least some hope for mcvay, our paid Zionist propagandist. I
noticed that lately, he has placed some of his hate messages to the German
list, where they belong -- not on the lists of people who were equally
brutalized by German Nazis and Jewish Bolsheviks.

Murdering Jews by the Nazis was wrong and most decent condemn it. Murdering
Polish, Russian, Ukrainian people and others by Stalin's Jewish Bolsheviks
was also wrong. Why can't decent Jews condemn those atrocities -- instead
of trying to deny it and attack those who present the ignored half history?

Doktor Tavische <NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:b5ve6tghnondknrgf...@4ax.com...

Lou Minatti™

unread,

Jan 18, 2001, 9:35:34 PM1/18/01

to

Doktor Tavische felched:
SNIP!

Be sure to check out Tavish's World!
http://internettrash.com/users/satireworld/tartindex.html

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 18, 2001, 10:47:57 PM1/18/01

to

bpg wrote:

> What I find disturbing is the posting of Zionist hate messages to the
> Polish, Russian, Ukrainian and other lists of people who have suffered
> equally under Hitler's Nazi

I would like to go on record as saying that I deplore this myself.
People who hate Zionists always try to assume that everyone else
does, too. And to assume this by nationality is deplorable.
But, then, bigots such as these aren't very bright or fair-minded
to begin with.

> and Stalin's Jewish-Bolshevik terror.

You are in error, here.
By the time Stalin got in control of Russia & the Communist
Party, the Jews - and any semblence of humanity - were gone
from the leadership of the Communist party - as evidence by
their becoming one of the particular targets of it.

Susan

david_michael

unread,

Jan 18, 2001, 11:19:46 PM1/18/01

to

Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote in message
news:3A67B8EC...@his.com...

Hmmm. Funny how they missed Kaganovich then.

David

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Doktor Tavische

unread,

Jan 19, 2001, 4:13:24 AM1/19/01

to

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:47:57 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:

>bpg wrote:
>
>> What I find disturbing is the posting of Zionist hate messages to the
>> Polish, Russian, Ukrainian and other lists of people who have suffered
>> equally under Hitler's Nazi

>I would like to go on record as saying that I deplore this myself.
>People who hate Zionists always try to assume that everyone else
>does, too. And to assume this by nationality is deplorable.
>But, then, bigots such as these aren't very bright or fair-minded
>to begin with.

I know why the Ukrainians did what they did. The Soviets killed millions
of them and here is the proof:
http://x72.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=640663851&fmt=text
"Have you ever wondered why Ukrainians volunteered for guard duty?"
MUST READ!

The post also shows who the Soviets were and using Jewess Lucy
Dawidowicz's own writings!

>> and Stalin's Jewish-Bolshevik terror.

>You are in error, here.
>By the time Stalin got in control of Russia & the Communist
>Party, the Jews - and any semblence of humanity - were gone
>from the leadership of the Communist party - as evidence by
>their becoming one of the particular targets of it.

You are in great error once again Susan. I guess what follows which is
from the United States Gov't Library of Congress will show that, in fact,
your Jews were very involved with communism!

CARE TO DENY THIS AS I SLAM DUNK YOU AS USUAL AGAIN?
(BTW Pay attention to all of the Jewish names and notice that American
Jews are pals with the propagandmeisters!)

http://x71.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=694172104

"Propaganda Arm for Stalinist Soviet Union - The Jewish Antifascist
Committee (From U.S. Gov't & UCLA Archives - The Soviet Exhibit)"

Classic Repost from 5/23/1999 Not all links may be active today.

DejaCom links are temporarily inactive as per their notice effective today
November 15, 2000. http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml "Notice: Archive

searches for postings prior to May 15, 1999, are temporarily unavailable."

http://sunsite.unc.edu/expo/soviet.exhibit/jac.html

"The Jewish Antifascist Committee (JAC) was formed in Kuibyshev in
April 1942. Two Polish Jewish socialists, Henryk Erlich and Viktor
Alter (both of whom were later secretly executed), may have proposed
the idea to Lavrenti Beria, the head of the NKVD. The organization was
meant to serve the interests of Soviet foreign policy and the Soviet
military through media propaganda -- as well as through personal
contacts with Jews abroad, especially in Britain and the United
States, designed to influence public opinion and enlist foreign
support for the Soviet war effort.

The chairman of the JAC was Solomon Mikhoels, a famous actor and
director of the Moscow Yiddish State Theater. Shakne Epshtein, a
Yiddish journalist, was the secretary and editor of the JAC's
newspaper, Einikait (Unity). Other prominent JAC members were the
poet Itsik Feffer, a former member of the Bund (a Jewish socialist
movement that existed from 1897 to 1921 and supported the
Mensheviks], the writer Il'ia Ehrenburg, General Aaron Katz of the Stalin
Military Academy, and Boris Shimelovich, the chief surgeon of the Red
Army, as well as some non-Jews from the arts, sciences, and the military.

A year after its establishment, the JAC was moved to Moscow and
became one of the most important centers of Jewish culture and
Yiddish literature until the German invasion. The JAC broadcast
pro-Soviet propaganda to foreign audiences several times a week,
telling them of the absence of anti-Semitism and of the great
anti-Nazi efforts being made by the Soviet military....."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Patrick L. Humphrey

unread,

Jan 19, 2001, 6:06:35 AM1/19/01

to

Doktor Tavische <NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com> writes:

>On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:04:02 +0100, usenetter
><USERz...@spamajmunn.comEMAIL> wrote:

>>Thank you very much for answering my question number 2 (number of Jews
>>murdered in the concentration camps): 5,970,000 according to German
>>government records.

>Why hasn't anyone ever asked why things always happen to Jews in even
>numbers!? We now see 5,970,000 instead of 6,000,000.

Evidently the concept of rounding large numbers hasn't reached Bellville yet.

>Look at this:

At what? The fact that you're a monumentally stupid kook?

--PLH, that's old news

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 19, 2001, 10:11:43 AM1/19/01

to

Doktor Tavische wrote:

Or, rather, you disagree with me.
You have never yet proven me to be in error.

> I guess what follows which is
> from the United States Gov't Library of Congress will show that, in fact,
> your Jews were very involved with communism!

And, as usual, you are twisting the truth.
If you would read (yes, I know it's difficult for you) what
I wrote, you would see that I do not deny that Jews were
involed in establishing the Communist regime. Indeed,
they were - it was supposed to be the fair-to-everyone
alternative to the totalitarian Tsraist regime.
But, as I said, by the time Stalin got hold of it, the Jews
were not only gone, but persecuted.
Do get your facts straight - it will make you look less dumb.

> CARE TO DENY THIS

already did

> AS I SLAM DUNK YOU

In your empty-headed dreams

> AS USUAL

If it was "as usual", it wouldn't be. period. because you always
fall flat on your face. Like now. As usual.

> AGAIN?

Just like the Mad Hatter offering Alice "More tea?"
when she hadn't had any yet.

[all lame links to Scotty's own posts snipped as irrelevent]

> "The Jewish Antifascist Committee (JAC) was formed in Kuibyshev in
> April 1942. Two Polish Jewish socialists, Henryk Erlich and Viktor
> Alter (both of whom were later secretly executed),

Thank you for proving my point.

> may have proposed
> the idea to Lavrenti Beria, the head of the NKVD. The organization was
> meant to serve the interests of Soviet foreign policy and the Soviet
> military through media propaganda -- as well as through personal
> contacts with Jews abroad, especially in Britain and the United
> States, designed to influence public opinion and enlist foreign
> support for the Soviet war effort.
>
> The chairman of the JAC was Solomon Mikhoels, a famous actor and
> director of the Moscow Yiddish State Theater. Shakne Epshtein, a
> Yiddish journalist, was the secretary and editor of the JAC's
> newspaper, Einikait (Unity). Other prominent JAC members were the
> poet Itsik Feffer, a former member of the Bund (a Jewish socialist
> movement that existed from 1897 to 1921

Yep - the dates are right. Early. Just like I said.

> and supported the
> Mensheviks],

The Menshiviks. As in *against* the Bolsheviks.
Thanks for proving my point.

> the writer Il'ia Ehrenburg, General Aaron Katz of the Stalin
> Military Academy, and Boris Shimelovich, the chief surgeon of the Red
> Army, as well as some non-Jews from the arts, sciences, and the military.
>
> A year after its establishment, the JAC was moved to Moscow and
> became one of the most important centers of Jewish culture and
> Yiddish literature until the German invasion. The JAC broadcast
> pro-Soviet propaganda to foreign audiences several times a week,
> telling them of the absence of anti-Semitism and of the great
> anti-Nazi efforts being made by the Soviet military....."

Which, at the time, was true.
Thank you for proving my point for me.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> More on Jewish Antifacist Committee:
>
> http://sunsite.unc.edu/expo/soviet.exhibit/m2antfac.html
>
> JEWISH ANTIFASCIST COMMITTEE IN THE USSR
>
> Moscow, ulitsa Kropotkina, 10, Telephone: G-6-71-00, G-6-47-07
>
> [letterhead also in Russian and Yiddish]

I'm going to leave in the following, as it is completely innocuous.
At no point in the following is there any indication of atrocities
such as Scotty & his fellow morons keep trying to lay at our
feet.
Thanks for helping to prove yourself wrong yet again, Scotty.

Does anyone want to address the remarks that were actually made,
by both the original poster and myself - to the effect that the Jews
were in charge of Stalinist atrocities, which YOU YOURSELF HAVE
DISPROVEN??

> Here is even more proof of Jewry being directly involved in the
> establishment of the Soviet Union. To deny the following and the above
> would be as absurd as denying that Germans established and maintained the
> National Socialist state or Nazism. We don't see Germans denying their
> past BUT we see cowardly and deceitful Jews disavowing all of the misery
> that they have wrought on the world with their Marxist Soviet Socialist
> State scheme! Most contemptible indeed!

You only see ignorant Jews who don't realize that the Jews
were heroes at the time, fighting against the despotic Tsarist
regime.

It wasn't until Stalin got in when the purges started - and Jews
were targeted, along with others.

YOU YOURSELF POINT OUT ONES WHO WERE
SECRETLY EXECUTED.

And just when I think you can't get any dumber....

And there you have it - nothing that dis[proves anything that I said,
but rather, either prove something not in dispute, OR bolsters what
I;ve said.

Nice work, Scotty. Keep it up.

> I show facts whereas you think all you have to do is run your mouth and it is true.

Except, of course, I'm right & you know it, else you
wouldn' be trying so desperately to chase me around
woth crap that means aboslutely nothing in an attempt
to obfuscate.

> Care to now say my proofs are out of order?

I already have, as usual.
Your "proofs" are not proof of anything that was actually
said, nor of anything actually wrong.

> Are you going
> to delete it and make personal attack as you always do?

And yet another load of garbage.

> Here is a bonus which shows that YOUR damned Jews have always allied themselves with
> communism and they carry it everywhere they go. From their own websites, in most
> instances, too!

And, as you are doubtless too stupid to realize, communism
in its pure form is not the evil that Stalin and his successors
made it. Jews are taught to uphold the downtrodden, and
that's how communism came about.

What a total load of bull. I would say that you are deliberately
ignoring the difference in persecution - type, not levels - but it's
more than possible that you;re just too dumb to be able to tell the
difference.
The government was being covert & trying to pretend they weren't anti-Jewish, while the
freer people don't have to hide it

Get a clue.

Yes. You need to address the actual issue. Moron!

Susan

>
>
> Doc Tavish
> ---
> "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-Jew
> after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
> <http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html> Information taken from:
> Is it Kosher, Rabbi E. Eidlitz and Spice and Spirit, The Lubavitch
> Women's Cookbook Publications (September 15, 2000)

Yes, it's considered sacramental.
How many Jews get to handle communion wafers?
(& how many times are you going to make me rub your nose
in your own stupidity?)

Susan

Doktor Tavische

unread,

Jan 19, 2001, 2:05:57 PM1/19/01

to

Once again all I can say is-- you can only make personal attack when
confronted with facts! All I see is YOUR opinion. You cite no sources
or show no proofs-- just YOUR opinion! You're the braindead person-- not
me. Anyone wishing to read what I posted without Susan's weak reply just
has to click this link:
http://x56.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717779835&fmt=text
"Doc Tavish Slam Dunks Susan Cohen Again - Her Jews Are/Were Very Involved
With Communism aka Re: Why Is It , etc."

Yes I have numerous times!
http://x56.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=707258810&fmt=text
"Doc Tavish Slam Dunks Susan Cohen Again! aka Why Is It Jews Always Seem
to Endorse Homosexuality? --(Any Jews Wanting to Go on Public Record
Denouncing Homo Lifestyle?) R 2"

http://x67.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=579434476&fmt=text
"Spoken as a True Neo-Pharisee"

I've always slam dunked you Susan. You just won't admit it!

>> I guess what follows which is
>> from the United States Gov't Library of Congress will show that, in fact,
>> your Jews were very involved with communism!

>And, as usual, you are twisting the truth.
>If you would read (yes, I know it's difficult for you) what
>I wrote, you would see that I do not deny that Jews were
>involed in establishing the Communist regime.

Thanks for finally admitting Jews were behind communism!

>Indeed, they were - it was supposed to be the fair-to-everyone
>alternative to the totalitarian Tsraist regime.
>But, as I said, by the time Stalin got hold of it, the Jews
>were not only gone, but persecuted.

Not according to U.S. Gov't archives. Jews were even running the
propaganda ministry for Stalin!

>Do get your facts straight - it will make you look less dumb.

I had my facts straight but YOUR opinion falls flat.

>> CARE TO DENY THIS

>already did

>> AS I SLAM DUNK YOU

>In your empty-headed dreams

>> AS USUAL

>If it was "as usual", it wouldn't be. period. because you always
>fall flat on your face. Like now. As usual.

I think if people read the two links I added above they would think
otherwise.

>> AGAIN?

>Just like the Mad Hatter offering Alice "More tea?"
>when she hadn't had any yet.
>
>[all lame links to Scotty's own posts snipped as irrelevent]

Name call and deletion of documented proofs is all these Neo-Bolshevists
can do! You can't refute what I post so you delete it. My links were posts
related to Jewish web sites and their contents!

>> "The Jewish Antifascist Committee (JAC) was formed in Kuibyshev in
>> April 1942. Two Polish Jewish socialists, Henryk Erlich and Viktor
>> Alter (both of whom were later secretly executed),

>Thank you for proving my point.

What point? So what if Stalin killed two Jews-- this doesn't prove that
Jews were persecuted by Stalin and more than Hitler started persecuting
Nazis because he had Rohm and some other SA men executed!

>> may have proposed
>> the idea to Lavrenti Beria, the head of the NKVD. The organization was
>> meant to serve the interests of Soviet foreign policy and the Soviet
>> military through media propaganda -- as well as through personal
>> contacts with Jews abroad, especially in Britain and the United
>> States, designed to influence public opinion and enlist foreign
>> support for the Soviet war effort.
>>
>> The chairman of the JAC was Solomon Mikhoels, a famous actor and
>> director of the Moscow Yiddish State Theater. Shakne Epshtein, a
>> Yiddish journalist, was the secretary and editor of the JAC's
>> newspaper, Einikait (Unity). Other prominent JAC members were the
>> poet Itsik Feffer, a former member of the Bund (a Jewish socialist
>> movement that existed from 1897 to 1921

>Yep - the dates are right. Early. Just like I said.

>> and supported the
>> Mensheviks],

>The Menshiviks. As in *against* the Bolsheviks.
>Thanks for proving my point.

What point? Both were Jewish groups. Jews have always had factions among
themselves from the day Moses crossed the Red Sea.

>> the writer Il'ia Ehrenburg, General Aaron Katz of the Stalin
>> Military Academy, and Boris Shimelovich, the chief surgeon of the Red
>> Army, as well as some non-Jews from the arts, sciences, and the military.
>>
>> A year after its establishment, the JAC was moved to Moscow and
>> became one of the most important centers of Jewish culture and
>> Yiddish literature until the German invasion. The JAC broadcast
>> pro-Soviet propaganda to foreign audiences several times a week,
>> telling them of the absence of anti-Semitism and of the great
>> anti-Nazi efforts being made by the Soviet military....."

>Which, at the time, was true.
>Thank you for proving my point for me.

What point? You made no point!

>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> More on Jewish Antifacist Committee:
>>
>> http://sunsite.unc.edu/expo/soviet.exhibit/m2antfac.html
>>
>> JEWISH ANTIFASCIST COMMITTEE IN THE USSR
>>
>> Moscow, ulitsa Kropotkina, 10, Telephone: G-6-71-00, G-6-47-07
>>
>> [letterhead also in Russian and Yiddish]

>I'm going to leave in the following, as it is completely innocuous.

How is it innocuous? It shows all the Jews participating!

>At no point in the following is there any indication of atrocities
>such as Scotty & his fellow morons keep trying to lay at our
>feet.

It shows that YOUR Jews were propagandizing for a brutal dictator who have
not gotten where he was if it weren't for Jewish conceived communism.

>Thanks for helping to prove yourself wrong yet again, Scotty.

How's that Susan. All I see is you doing a nervous tap dance and saying
I'm proving your point. You have no point!

MY MY MY JUST COUNT ALL THE JEWS!!!!

You are in denial. I proved you wrong when you said at the top precisely:

"By the time Stalin got in control of Russia & the Communist Party, the
Jews - and any semblence of humanity - were gone from the leadership of
the Communist party - as evidence by their becoming one of the particular

targets of it." I effectively showed your claim to be false-- Jews were
very much a part of the Stalin Regime!

>> Here is even more proof of Jewry being directly involved in the
>> establishment of the Soviet Union. To deny the following and the above
>> would be as absurd as denying that Germans established and maintained the
>> National Socialist state or Nazism. We don't see Germans denying their
>> past BUT we see cowardly and deceitful Jews disavowing all of the misery
>> that they have wrought on the world with their Marxist Soviet Socialist
>> State scheme! Most contemptible indeed!

>You only see ignorant Jews who don't realize that the Jews
>were heroes at the time, fighting against the despotic Tsarist
>regime.

Despotic or not The Tsar is not a part of the discussion. The discussion
is about Jews and their involvement wir=th communism.

>It wasn't until Stalin got in when the purges started - and Jews
>were targeted, along with others.

SOME JEWS like Hitler did with SOME NAZIS!

>YOU YOURSELF POINT OUT ONES WHO WERE
>SECRETLY EXECUTED.

So?

>And just when I think you can't get any dumber....

Personal attack is still all you have and I have yet to see you ever cite
a source. Your opinion and what you believe do not impress me one bit. You
are a propaganda agent and that is all you are.

>> NOTICE: NOT ALL LINKS MAY BE ACTIVE TODAY. WHAT FOLLOWS IS FROM 1997.

Anyone knows that links are not at all permanent but what follows
faithfully mirrors what the web sites showed at that time.

Demeaning remarks and munging of my name is all you have. I proved that
Jews were behind communism beyond any shadow of doubt.

>> I show facts whereas you think all you have to do is run your mouth and it is true.

>Except, of course, I'm right & you know it, else you
>wouldn' be trying so desperately to chase me around
>woth crap that means aboslutely nothing in an attempt
>to obfuscate.

I am not chasing you and I am not obfuscating.

>> Care to now say my proofs are out of order?

>I already have, as usual.
>Your "proofs" are not proof of anything that was actually
>said, nor of anything actually wrong.

All you have done is make personal attack and delete what I posted.

>> Are you going
>> to delete it and make personal attack as you always do?

>And yet another load of garbage.

See what I mean?

>> Here is a bonus which shows that YOUR damned Jews have always allied themselves with
>> communism and they carry it everywhere they go. From their own websites, in most
>> instances, too!

>And, as you are doubtless too stupid to realize, communism
>in its pure form is not the evil that Stalin and his successors
>made it.

Just like a Jew to defend communism!

>Jews are taught to uphold the downtrodden, and
>that's how communism came about.

Thanks for the admission that Jews were behind communism!
I will archive this and use it for years to come!

I wish you could tell that to all the Christian Kulak souls who were
slaughtered when your Jewish Comrades started the blood letting in
the Revolution which overthrew the Tsar. Stalin wasn't in power at the
time! Now care to wiggle out of your shame?

You're the clueless one!

I did and you dodged every bit of the way. You name called, made personal
attack, deleted material facts and then you call me moron. I think you've
pretty well lost your argument and not once did you cite and sources or
offer documented proofs for your OPINIONS.

>Susan

>> ---
>> "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
>> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-Jew
>> after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
>> <http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html> Information taken from:
>> Is it Kosher, Rabbi E. Eidlitz and Spice and Spirit, The Lubavitch
>> Women's Cookbook Publications (September 15, 2000)

>Yes, it's considered sacramental.

It shows Jewish bigotry!

>How many Jews get to handle communion wafers?
>(& how many times are you going to make me rub your nose
>in your own stupidity?)

You are referring to religious use of wine and communion wafers BUT I am
talking about use apart from a synagogue or church. Outside of a synagogue
an "observant" Jew will not drink any wine poured by the hand of a
non-Jew. Care to deny the fact now?

>Susan

Doc Tavish

---
To see the real reason why my opposition has pulled out all stops in their
efforts to silence me just click this link and read all of the links
contained within it! <http://x72.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=670644088>

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jan 19, 2001, 9:01:14 PM1/19/01

to

In article <b5ve6tghnondknrgf...@4ax.com>,

Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie "BOOGERMAN" Bradbury (sonn...@flash.net) wrote:

> Is the death toll for WWII and the Viet Nam Watr rounded off too!?
> I don't think so!

Then post the authoritative death tolls for each war that _aren't_ rounded off,
idiot.

Lou Minatti™

unread,

Jan 20, 2001, 12:34:01 AM1/20/01

to

Doktor Tavische kookfarted:

>
> Once again all I can say is--

Quit spamming, fatboy.

--
Watching You Dot Com
http://www.watchingyou.com

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

unread,

Jan 21, 2001, 5:53:25 AM1/21/01

to

In <lovf6tsrcbtlsqu3j...@4ax.com>, on 01/19/2001
at 09:13 AM, Doktor Tuches lekker <NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com>
said:

>I know why the Ukrainians did what they did.

Tu madre! Crawl back under your rock, you nazi shakran.

*PLONK*

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Atid/2
Team OS/2
Team PL/I

Any unsolicited commercial junk E-mail will be subject to legal
action. I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any
abusive E-mail.

I mangled my E-mail address to foil automated spammers; reply to
domain acm dot org user shmuel to contact me. Do not reply to
spam...@library.lspace.org
-----------------------------------------------------------

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

unread,

Jan 21, 2001, 11:44:10 AM1/21/01

to

In <b5ve6tghnondknrgf...@4ax.com>, on 01/18/2001
at 11:31 PM, Doktor Tuchis lekker <NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com>
said:

>Is the death toll for WWII and the Viet Nam Watr rounded off too!? I
>don't think so!

You don't think. Period. An exact tabulation is impossible, and with
an approximate tabulation it makes sense to round off.

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 22, 2001, 6:50:12 AM1/22/01

to

"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" wrote:

> In <lovf6tsrcbtlsqu3j...@4ax.com>, on 01/19/2001
> at 09:13 AM, Doktor Tuches lekker <NOSPAMdo...@my-deja.com>
> said:
>
> >I know why the Ukrainians did what they did.
>
> Tu madre! Crawl back under your rock, you nazi shakran.
>
> *PLONK*

Don't you love how these braindead bigots assume that
everyone shares their bigotry?
Like we're going to believe that all Ukrainians share the
thoughts of *some* evil Ukrainians.
Every group has their monsters.

Susan

Juergen Hubert

unread,

Jan 22, 2001, 10:04:32 AM1/22/01

to

Doktor Tavische wrote:
>

> >Anyone who knows the rudiments of statistics knows estimates are given
> >in round numbers.
>
> Is the death toll for WWII and the Viet Nam Watr rounded off too!?

Yes, indeed.

For a modern military organization (or at least one that keeps enough
records), it is relatively easy how many of its members have died. Even
so, they don't know how many of those who have gone missing are "just"
missing or dead. They have more difficulties with determining the number
of deaths of their opponents. And when one or both sides attack
partisans or civilians, exact numbers are impossible to get.

> I don't think so!

Why am I not surprised?

- Juergen Hubert

Doktor Tavische

unread,

Jan 22, 2001, 11:18:00 AM1/22/01

to

---
"I do not deny that Jews were involved in establishing the Communist
regime... Jews are taught to uphold the downtrodden, and that's how
communism came about." Susan Cohen 01/19/2001
http://x70.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717872510

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 12:27:14 AM1/23/01

to

Doktor Tavische wrote:

Thank you for yet again making my point for me.
As usual, nothing in what I said agrees with or bolsters
anything you say.
I have always said that Jews were involved with the origins
of Russian communism.
And I have also always said that by the time Communism got
repressive and evil, the Jews were dispossessed and targeted,
same as everyone else, if not more so.
You, yourself, even point this out when you note, however
reluctantly, that two of the early leaders were "secretly executed."

The way you foot flies into it with almost knee-jerk precision,
you'd think you'd learn to keep your mouth shut by now.

Susan

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 12:28:20 AM1/23/01

to

Juergen Hubert wrote:

> Doktor Tavische wrote:
> >
> > I don't think

>
> Why am I not surprised?
>
> - Juergen Hubert

I'm not surprised that he doesn't think, either.

Paul Kneisel

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 12:48:17 AM1/23/01

to

Cohen, ever tireless in explaining the truth in the face of almost
conscious dishonesty, is quite correct about the position of the Jews under
the later part of the Stalin regime. Naturally, the anti-Jewish policies
did not all occur at a single moment nor in a single fashion.

But Coehn neglected to mention that fascists actually supported the
Stalinists after the war in this regard.

Thus fascists challenge people Cohen with typical fascist dishonesty. They
first support a Stalinist policy in Eastern Europe and then blame the
Jews-as-a-people for every Stalinist policy including the ones they
supported.

Paul Kneisel

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 1:01:23 AM1/23/01

to

In my previous post on Tue, 23 Jan 2001 05:48:17 GMT
<7BltOojCsueXy6...@4ax.com> the sentence "Thus fascists
challenge people Cohen with typical fascist dishonesty." should read "Thus
fascists challenge people LIKE Cohen with typical fascist dishonesty."

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 2:40:02 AM1/23/01

to

Paul Kneisel wrote:

> Cohen, ever tireless in explaining the truth in the face of almost
> conscious dishonesty, is quite correct about the position of the Jews under
> the later part of the Stalin regime. Naturally, the anti-Jewish policies
> did not all occur at a single moment nor in a single fashion.
>
> But Coehn neglected to mention that fascists actually supported the
> Stalinists after the war in this regard.

I guess I'm just lucky that there are people like you
to catch what I miss. Thanks.

Susan

Doktor Tavische

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 5:40:18 AM1/23/01

to

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:27:14 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:

Doktor Tavische

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 5:40:19 AM1/23/01

to

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:28:20 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:

>
>
>Juergen Hubert wrote:
>
>> Doktor Tavische wrote:

---
"I do not deny that Jews were involved in establishing the Communist
regime... Jews are taught to uphold the downtrodden, and that's how
communism came about." Susan Cohen 01/19/2001
http://x70.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717872510
>>

Doktor Tavische

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 5:40:21 AM1/23/01

to

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:40:02 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:

---
"You are doubtless too stupid to realize, communism in its pure form is
not the evil that Stalin and his successors made it." Susan Cohen
January 19, 2001 (Susan is saying communism was GOOD before Stalin!)
http://x70.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717872510

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 6:53:19 AM1/23/01

to

Doktor Tavische wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:40:02 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:
>
> ---
> "You are doubtless too stupid to realize, communism in its pure form is
> not the evil that Stalin and his successors made it." Susan Cohen
> January 19, 2001 (Susan is saying communism was GOOD before Stalin!)

No, lying jackass. I said nothing of the kind.
I gave no timeline, I said nothing about any specific
area's communism.
"Communism in its purest form" has nothing to do with
anything that has been practiced by any government so
far.
Learn to read, & TRY NOT to lie so much!

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 6:55:04 AM1/23/01

to

Doktor Tavische wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:27:14 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:
>
> >Doktor Tavische wrote:
>
> ---
> "I do not deny that Jews were involved in establishing the Communist
> regime... Jews are taught to uphold the downtrodden, and that's how
> communism came about." Susan Cohen 01/19/2001
> http://x70.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717872510

The only thing more amazing than the way you ignore
how stupid you've been made to look is the way you
make yourself look even dumber by reposting the posts
that prove how dumb you are.

Juergen Hubert

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 8:25:39 AM1/23/01

to

Doktor Tavische wrote:
>

[snip]

You know, sooner or later some people reach the point when they are
getting repetetive...

- Juergen Hubert

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 5:20:08 PM1/23/01

to

What?

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 9:35:34 PM1/23/01

to

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:55:04 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:

>Doktor Tavische wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:27:14 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Doktor Tavische wrote:
>>
>> ---
>> "I do not deny that Jews were involved in establishing the Communist
>> regime... Jews are taught to uphold the downtrodden, and that's how
>> communism came about." Susan Cohen 01/19/2001
>> http://x70.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717872510

>The only thing more amazing than the way you ignore
>how stupid you've been made to look is the way you
>make yourself look even dumber by reposting the posts
>that prove how dumb you are.

You really are in deep denial aren't you flake. I quote exactly what
you've said and you imply I'm dumb.

---
"You are doubtless too stupid to realize, communism in its pure form is
not the evil that Stalin and his successors made it." Susan Cohen
January 19, 2001 (Susan is saying communism was GOOD before Stalin!)

http://x70.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717872510

Al Kirke

unread,

Jan 23, 2001, 10:17:30 AM1/23/01

to

Martin wrote in message <3a664b1d...@news.uni-mannheim.de>...
>On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:35:18 -0500, in soc.culture.jewish in
>article <zAk96.277$Y92.61...@news1.tor.primus.ca> "Larry
>R" <fut...@primus.ca> wrote:
>
>>The Germans, Nazis, and collaborators were excellent record keepers. Every
>>Jew that was rounded up and sent to a concentration camp was tattooed with
a
>>number. These numbers were catalogued into records. Every Jew who died
while
>>in a camp, whether shot, gassed, beaten to or worked to death, died while
>>being experimented on medically etc. was recorded and affirmed by number.
>>All these records in turn were kept and cross checked by Nazis and staff.
>>From these post war captured records records and verified by German and
Nazi
>>officials, by their own calculation they killed 5,970,000 Jews

- snip -

This past century was an unfortunate time to have been born. As J.R.R.
Tolkein wrote in the preface to his book, The Hobbit, "It was a misfortune
to be caught in youth by 1914. By the time I was 21 all of my close
friends
were dead." Tolkein was a sickly lad, rejected for service in the British
Army.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, in his little book, Out of Control, writes: "Thus,
during
the twentieth century, no less than 167,000,000 lives - and quite probably
in excess of 175,000,000 - were deliberately extinguished through
politically
motivated carnage. .... this is more than the total killed in ALL previous
wars,
civil conflicts, and religious persecutions throughout human history.

The two world wars are counted to have consumed at least 8,500,000 and
19,000,000 military lives, respectively, causing a massive biological
depletion
of talent, energy, and genetic inheritance in several key European nations.
Other wars elsewhere in this century caused an additional 6,000,000 or so
military fatalities. Civilian casualties - as actual by-product of
hostilities (and
not of deliberate genocide) - accounted for about 13,000,000 women, children
and older men during World War I and for about 20,000,000 during World
War II, to which must be added the estimated 15,000,000 civilian Chinese
deaths in the Sino-Japanese war which started prior to world War II.
...

Although it was the Nazis and the Japanese militarists who initiated the
practice of total war, democratic societies - once also at war - likewise
succumbed to the tempting proposition that "the ends justify the means."
The hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed in the fire-bombings
of Dresden and the atomic destruction of Hiroshima provide mute testimony
to the moral corruption facilitated by the advances in the technology of
death."

Brzezinski's tally:

Mao 27,000,000 Political purges, collectivization of
agriculture
Stalin 20-25,000,000 Political purges, collectivization of
agriculture.
Lenin 6-8,000,000 Political purges, collectivization of
agriculture.
Hitler 6,000,000 5,100,000 Jews (Raul Hilberg), 900,000
others

"This does not include the massacre of Armenians in Turkey during WW I, or
the Hindu-Moslem killings during the partition of India. Together, in all
probability not less than 3-4,000,000 people.
...
Entire communities - notably the artistically and culturally creative Jewish
one
in Europe - were eliminated."

It was a bad time for everybody.

Al

Susan Cohen

unread,

Jan 24, 2001, 2:20:39 AM1/24/01

to

Doc Tavish wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:55:04 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:
>
> >Doktor Tavische wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:27:14 -0500, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Doktor Tavische wrote:
> >>
> >> ---
> >> "I do not deny that Jews were involved in establishing the Communist
> >> regime... Jews are taught to uphold the downtrodden, and that's how
> >> communism came about." Susan Cohen 01/19/2001
> >> http://x70.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717872510
>
> >The only thing more amazing than the way you ignore
> >how stupid you've been made to look is the way you
> >make yourself look even dumber by reposting the posts
> >that prove how dumb you are.
>
> You really are in deep denial aren't you flake.

Wowm, the projectionism you display is awesome
(but almost as awesome as your lack of literacy - which I normally
wouldn't mention, except that you preternd to belong to some sort
of superior group, so it bears highlighting)!

> I quote exactly what you've said and you imply I'm dumb.

Because, moron, you
a) are merely quoting the posts wherin I have, as usual,
destroyed all your hollow, empty "arguments".
Only an idiot does that.
b) you quote it, but then state that it says something else.
See below.
c) & I don't "imply" that you're dumb; I state it outright
as an obvious fact.

> --
> "You are doubtless too stupid to realize, communism in its pure form is
> not the evil that Stalin and his successors made it." Susan Cohen
> January 19, 2001 (Susan is saying communism was GOOD before Stalin!)

See? What I wrote does not say what you say it does, and yet
this the 4th or 5th time at least that you'd tried to pretend it does.

>
> http://x70.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=717872510
>

Robert J. Kolker

unread,

Jan 24, 2001, 3:12:18 AM1/24/01

to

Al Kirke wrote:

>
> Although it was the Nazis and the Japanese militarists who initiated the
> practice of total war, democratic societies - once also at war - likewise
> succumbed to the tempting proposition that "the ends justify the means."
> The hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed in the fire-bombings
> of Dresden and the atomic destruction of Hiroshima provide mute testimony
> to the moral corruption facilitated by the advances in the technology of
> death."

Those who would make an omelette should not scruple at
the breaking of eggs. If the ends of defeating Fascism were
justified then so were the means.

You will recall that the only people killed at Hiroshima and
Nagasaki were Japanese people. It seems right enough to
me.

Bob Kolker

Lou Hinshaw

unread,

Jan 25, 2001, 8:18:55 PM1/25/01

to

"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@email.com> wrote:

>
>
>Al Kirke wrote:
>
>>
>> Although it was the Nazis and the Japanese militarists who initiated the
>> practice of total war, democratic societies - once also at war - likewise
>> succumbed to the tempting proposition that "the ends justify the means."
>> The hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed in the fire-bombings
>> of Dresden and the atomic destruction of Hiroshima provide mute testimony
>> to the moral corruption facilitated by the advances in the technology of
>> death."
>
>Those who would make an omelette should not scruple at
>the breaking of eggs. If the ends of defeating Fascism were
>justified then so were the means.

The phrase about the end and the means is almost valueless
outside specific applications whether the E J'd the M in a specific
case, and then the historians are usually full of crap about it.

>You will recall that the only people killed at Hiroshima and
>Nagasaki were Japanese people. It seems right enough to
>me.

It was not right. It was neccessary, Thare is a difference.
The only way to make the Japs quit at that time was to break
the hold the military had on the government, Generals were talking
about tens of years of resistance on the "Sacred Homeland"
until the mil HQ in one of the 2 cities died, and the other generals
became more docile.

The cities were chosen because they had become massive munitions
plants with every home producing war materiel. the cities were not
chosen as a "lesson" to anyone. Doolittle did that within 6 months
of Pearl Harbor.

Japan "retaliated" by bashing their heads to death at Midway and
losing the war. The Japs who knew how badly the Japs had lost
were not allowed to return to Japan till after the war. They were
reassigned all over the place.

LeMay knew how the Jap propaganda radios were lying to the civil
population, and knew the leaflets were not doing as much as firebombs
to shake the will to fight. LeMay also knew the number of lives lost to
the A-bombs would be far less than the lives lost to the continuance of
war especially the way the Jap generals meant to do it.

as one Jap sergeant said after the war, "we did not know that our
leaders were totally ignorant of modern war."

Even so, they came close. They are still considering it. We are still at
war with Japan, and this time in business. As the founder of Commodore
Business Machines said, "Business IS war."

The bombs were necessary.

"The learned Fool writes his nonsense in better language,
but 'tis still nonsense."
B.Franklin 'Poor Richard Improved' (1754)

Lou H.
Semi-Learned, and very foolish,
Prolific inventor, now on VP prop
and cheap jet for GA
Lousy Salesman,
Incompetent businessman.
(Typical of the Breed)
Looking for both around
Tulsa OK, USA
(need working partner)

Robert J. Kolker

unread,

Jan 25, 2001, 9:06:41 PM1/25/01

to

Lou Hinshaw wrote:

>
> The bombs were necessary.

I agree. It was also right. Every so often
necessity is on the side of righteousness.
What had to be done was done.

Bob Kolker

mickeymi...@my-deja.com

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 8:32:53 AM1/26/01

to

In article <3a70b7ee...@news.pipeline.com>,

And so it is easy to dismiss tens of thousands of non-Western, innocent
lives.

So proud to be the citizens of the only nation to employ atomic weapons.

The questions have never been fully answered, and especially a cloud
hangs over Nagasaki.

Choosing a city with munitions dumps or no is still vastly different
than a military target.

There are historians who argue that Japan did not even need to be
invaded, period. A blockade of the mainland and air attacks, not
genocide, may have done the trick.

mm

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

Adam Littman

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 9:47:20 AM1/26/01

to

In article <94rua5$kal$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mickeymi...@my-deja.com wrote:

>There are historians who argue that Japan did not even need to be
>invaded, period. A blockade of the mainland and air attacks, not
>genocide, may have done the trick.

There are historians who argue a lot of stupid things. What is most
significant to me is that _after_ Hiroshima, _and_ Nagasaki, _and_ the Russian
announcement of invasion, the ruling council of Japan had a tie vote on
whether to surrender or not. It was only by the unprecedented step of asking
the Emperor (a spiritual rather than temporal leader) that the deadlock was
broken.

If after all that destruction, and the prospect of city after city being
consumed in nuclear fire only half of their rulers were convinced to
surrender, I don't think there is a chance in hell they would have surrendered
otherwise.

--
___________
Adam Littman / ^ \
AL...@cornell.edu /\ / \ /\
/__\__/___\__/__\
/ \( ) ( )/ \
\ /\ o /\ /
\ / \( )/ \ /
"Four minutes twenty-two seconds, \/____\_/____\/
Baldric, you owe me a groat" \ \ /
--Blackadder \ / \ /
---------

Bernie Rich

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 10:59:08 AM1/26/01

to

The whiners like to 'inflate' figures. I have a question for the
whiners. Why don't we ever hear about the 1,500,000 gypsies that were
sent to the camps? Or the hundreds of thousands of germans who opposed
the nazis?
or the 2,500,000 soviet soldiers that died in the prison camps? Or other
people from all over Europe. Millions were killed but all we ever hear
about are the jews. I for one am fed up with the whiners! Take a good
look at your own history, your hands are bloody too! Oh yes, of course,
you did it at gods orders! As Samual told Saul.

mickeymi...@my-deja.com

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 11:05:24 AM1/26/01

to

In article <Y5gc6.56793$ju6.5...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
al...@nospam.cornell.edu (Adam Littman) wrote:
> In article <94rua5$kal$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mickeymickiewicz@my-

deja.com wrote:
>
> >There are historians who argue that Japan did not even need to be
> >invaded, period. A blockade of the mainland and air attacks, not
> >genocide, may have done the trick.
>
> There are historians who argue a lot of stupid things.

Averting senseless and needless death doesn't seem to me to be a stupid
thing.

What is most
> significant to me is that _after_ Hiroshima, _and_ Nagasaki, _and_
the Russian
> announcement of invasion, the ruling council of Japan had a tie vote
on
> whether to surrender or not. It was only by the unprecedented step of
asking
> the Emperor (a spiritual rather than temporal leader) that the
deadlock was
> broken.

There are suggestions that Hirohito had far more political weight than
a figurehead; the Americans decided to keep him as a figurehead and not
try him as a war criminal for their own purposes of building democracy.

Books such as Embracing Defeat are interesting in that regard.

>
> If after all that destruction, and the prospect of city after city
being
> consumed in nuclear fire only half of their rulers were convinced to
> surrender, I don't think there is a chance in hell they would have
surrendered
> otherwise.

Japan's inability to import oil would have meant slow strangulation of
its industries. It wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out they
would not be able to wage war effectively.

Robert J. Kolker

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 11:50:31 AM1/26/01

to

mickeymi...@my-deja.com wrote:

>
> And so it is easy to dismiss tens of thousands of non-Western, innocent
> lives.
>
> So proud to be the citizens of the only nation to employ atomic weapons.

Prithee sir, that you remember who STARTED the war. It was the
Japanese Empire.

Those who Sow the Wind shall Reap the Whirlwind.

Better we A-bombed them, then they A-bomb us.

>
>
> The questions have never been fully answered, and especially a cloud
> hangs over Nagasaki.

A radioactive cloud is more like it.

>
>
> Choosing a city with munitions dumps or no is still vastly different
> than a military target.
>
> There are historians who argue that Japan did not even need to be
> invaded, period. A blockade of the mainland and air attacks, not
> genocide, may have done the trick.

What genocide? Did all the Japanese die. Was there even an attempt
to kill ALL the Japanese. If not, then there was no genocide or
even attempted genocide. Given the treatment of the Japs after the
war, allowing them self government with obvious restrictions, is
hardly the act of a nation bent on genocide. It turns out that being
trounced by the U.S. was one of the happier things that befell the
Japanese People. Lord knows they did not deserve the break they
got.

Bob Kolker

Robert J. Kolker

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 11:57:37 AM1/26/01

to

mickeymi...@my-deja.com wrote:

>
> Japan's inability to import oil would have meant slow strangulation of
> its industries. It wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out they
> would not be able to wage war effectively.

Pearl Harbor was a fast attack. We did not owe the Japs slow
anything.

Those who Sow the Wind shall Reap the Whirlwind.

Bob Kolker

Adam Littman

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Jan 26, 2001, 12:15:16 PM1/26/01

to

In article <94s77s$ss7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mickeymi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>In article <Y5gc6.56793$ju6.5...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> al...@nospam.cornell.edu (Adam Littman) wrote:
>> In article <94rua5$kal$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mickeymickiewicz@my-
>deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >There are historians who argue that Japan did not even need to be
>> >invaded, period. A blockade of the mainland and air attacks, not
>> >genocide, may have done the trick.
>>
>> There are historians who argue a lot of stupid things.
>
>Averting senseless and needless death doesn't seem to me to be a stupid
>thing.

No, but the idea that the Japanese were ready to surrender, and would have
surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, _is_ a stupid
thing.

The deaths were neither senseless, nor needless. It is only the "blame America
first/America is the root of all evil" historians, and their dupes, who think
otherwise.

>> If after all that destruction, and the prospect of city after city
>being
>> consumed in nuclear fire only half of their rulers were convinced to
>> surrender, I don't think there is a chance in hell they would have
>surrendered
>> otherwise.
>
>
>Japan's inability to import oil would have meant slow strangulation of
>its industries. It wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out they
>would not be able to wage war effectively.

"Not being able to wage war effectively" and "not being able to kill tens of
thousands of Americans in an invasion of their Islands" are two different
things. Adm. Yamamoto told the Japanese government before the Pearl Harbor
bombing that he would be able to run wild for 6 months, and after that it
would take a miracle to prevent the Americans from winning. The man was
remarkably prescient. The battle of Midway happened 6 months after Pearl, and
the Japanese were steadily losing the war from that point on. Yet they refused
to surrender.

David Thornley

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 12:39:31 PM1/26/01

to

In article <94s77s$ss7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
<mickeymi...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>In article <Y5gc6.56793$ju6.5...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> al...@nospam.cornell.edu (Adam Littman) wrote:
>
>Averting senseless and needless death doesn't seem to me to be a stupid
>thing.
>

Right. We're agreed on that.

Now, let's ask how to avoid senseless death.

The Japanese still occupied some very heavily populated areas of
Asia, and ruled very brutally. Given what we know of civilian
casualties, it would seem very likely that over one hundred
thousand innocent Chinese were dying each month the war was
prolonged (and I'm being conservative here), not to mention
deaths elsewhere.

Nor can we overlook the deaths in Japan. Not only were innocent
people dying in air raids, they were starving already, and were
going to die in very large numbers if the war continued much
longer.

In any invasion of Japan, the civilian casualties were going to
dwarf what happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Have you studied
what happened to the civilian population of Okinawa? Have
you read about Japanese fourth-grade girls training with spears
to repel invaders?

In short, any method of ending the war quickly without invasion
was going to save a very large number of civilian lives, and any
loss of life it caused has to be balanced against that.

>What is most
>> significant to me is that _after_ Hiroshima, _and_ Nagasaki, _and_
>the Russian
>> announcement of invasion, the ruling council of Japan had a tie vote
>on
>

>There are suggestions that Hirohito had far more political weight than
>a figurehead; the Americans decided to keep him as a figurehead and not
>try him as a war criminal for their own purposes of building democracy.
>

Doesn't matter here. The Emperor did not act until after the Nagasaki
bomb, and acted quickly after that. Whether he had the ability to act
on his own initiative, or whether he was brought in by trickery against
the rules, is immaterial.

If you believe the Emperor was responsible, have you read the Imperial
Rescript ordering the Japanese to surrender?

The Emperor specifically mentions a "new and most cruel bomb". Everything
else, including the destruction of the Japanese navy and air forces,
the conquest of Japanese possessions including Okinawa and part
of Manchuria,the horribly destructive conventional bombing of Japanese
cities, the alignment of the Soviet Union, British Empire, and the
United Stated with the aim of defeating Japan....was all lumped into
"developments not necessarily to Japan's advantage". If you are
willing to trust the Emperor, then what caused the surrender was the
nukes.

>Japan's inability to import oil would have meant slow strangulation of
>its industries. It wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out they
>would not be able to wage war effectively.
>

They were not able to wage war effectively anyway. This didn't stop
hundreds of thousands of people from dying for the Japanese
war effort (and this does not count victims of Allied bombing).
They did not surrender, and allow potentially millions of civilians
to live, until after two nuclear weapons.

I believe that dropping the bombs was the course of action that
would cause the fewest civilians to die. It very likely saved
more Japanese civilians than it killed.

There are other ways to justify the nukes, such as Japanese actions
or anticipated Allied military casualties, but AFAICT we don't
need them to show that dropping the bombs was at least likely
the right thing to do.

--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

Dana Kerjbam

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 3:34:47 PM1/26/01

to

Waitaminute, I'm a little confused. If nobody talks about these victims,
where did you get your numbers from?

If nobody ever talks about those who opposed the Germans, how do we know
about the White Rose society, and what exactly is that honour bestowed upon
Oskar Schindler as one of the Righteous? How about the Chinese ambassador
similarly feted just recently? Isn't it the Jews who are honouring these
heroes? Or did I maybe miss something?

Also, how did you miss on that list the homosexuals who were also murdered
by the Nazis? They've been referred to quite a lot these days.

I understand your frustration, and humbly suggest perhaps you haven't been
reading the right books. Try this one:

?Burleigh, Michael & Wipperman, Wolfgang. The Racial State: Germany
1933-1935.
(Cambridge: Cambridge UP, 1991.)

There you will find detailed and factual acounts of Nazi persecution of
Jews, "Gypsies" (Sinti and Roman peoples), homosexuals and any others
considered "undesirable" by the Nazi state. If you are unable to acquire
this excellent resourse, I would be happy to send you some scanned pages.

I applaud the probing spirit in which you obviously pose these questions,
and look forward to hearing from you again when you have some facts to bring
to the argument.

Till then,

dana
"Bernie Rich" <Bern...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27510-3A...@storefull-127.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

mickeymi...@my-deja.com

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 4:06:05 PM1/26/01

to

In article <Egic6.58864$ju6.5...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
al...@nospam.cornell.edu (Adam Littman) wrote:
> In article <94s77s$ss7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mickeymickiewicz@my-

deja.com wrote:
> >In article <Y5gc6.56793$ju6.5...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> > al...@nospam.cornell.edu (Adam Littman) wrote:
> >> In article <94rua5$kal$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mickeymickiewicz@my-
> >deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >There are historians who argue that Japan did not even need to be
> >> >invaded, period. A blockade of the mainland and air attacks, not
> >> >genocide, may have done the trick.
> >>
> >> There are historians who argue a lot of stupid things.
> >
> >Averting senseless and needless death doesn't seem to me to be a
stupid
> >thing.
>
> No, but the idea that the Japanese were ready to surrender, and would
have
> surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, _is_ a
stupid
> thing.
>

IIRC, the Japanese made an overture through the Russians or somebody in
the early part of summer. The sticking point was the Emperor's status.

The US insisted on unconditional surrender.

The argument they are making is that an overture DID exist.

I don't know the details about how acceptable the Japanese terms were.
Apparently they existed.

Some do think that the Americans did want to demonstrate to the Soviets
the new weapon.

mickeymi...@my-deja.com

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 4:17:06 PM1/26/01

to

In article <nDic6.606$27.1...@ruti.visi.com>,

I appreciate your post, particularly the point about Chinese
suffering. As I posted elsewhere re this thread, there are issues out
there. I am not an expert.

There are those that say the Japanese made an overture in the summer,
but it was rejected because it wasn't unconditional.

There are those that say Nagasaki was unnecessary as well, and some say
it went through because it was a plutonium bomb and not a uranium.
That we wanted to impress the Soviets as such.

I tend to believe it was, particularly in the choice of targets. I am
open to reading those pro and anti arguments. I deplore the
aftereffects.

If the war could have been settled on reasonable grounds--eg, if the
only sticking point was that the Emperor retain some sort of spiritual
status, didn't that happen anyway? And therefore wasn't it a waste of
Allied life as well as Japanese civilian lives?

Did this happen because we stuck to unconditional surrender? And
should we have?

I don't have a problem with anyone asking these questions, though some
might.

Joel Rosenberg

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 4:31:39 PM1/26/01

to

mickeymi...@my-deja.com writes:

> In article <Egic6.58864$ju6.5...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> al...@nospam.cornell.edu (Adam Littman) wrote:
> > In article <94s77s$ss7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mickeymickiewicz@my-
> deja.com wrote:
> > >In article <Y5gc6.56793$ju6.5...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> > > al...@nospam.cornell.edu (Adam Littman) wrote:
> > >> In article <94rua5$kal$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mickeymickiewicz@my-
> > >deja.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >There are historians who argue that Japan did not even need to be
> > >> >invaded, period. A blockade of the mainland and air attacks, not
> > >> >genocide, may have done the trick.
> > >>
> > >> There are historians who argue a lot of stupid things.
> > >
> > >Averting senseless and needless death doesn't seem to me to be a
> stupid
> > >thing.
> >
> > No, but the idea that the Japanese were ready to surrender, and would
> have
> > surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, _is_ a
> stupid
> > thing.
> >
>
> IIRC, the Japanese made an overture through the Russians or somebody in
> the early part of summer. The sticking point was the Emperor's status.
>
> The US insisted on unconditional surrender.
>

There was a cultural misunderstanding. The Japanese thought that
"unconditional surrender" meant that the US might do something even
remotely as vicious as what the Japanese did to the people they
conquered -- see the rape of Nanking, for example -- which wasn't what
the US meant.

b...@antispam.net

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 9:24:02 PM1/26/01

to

In article <Egic6.58864$ju6.5...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, al51
@nospam.cornell.edu says...

> No, but the idea that the Japanese were ready to surrender, and would have
> surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, _is_ a stupid
> thing.
>
> The deaths were neither senseless, nor needless. It is only the "blame America
> first/America is the root of all evil" historians, and their dupes, who think
> otherwise.

Your statements are worse than Al Kirke's "You will recall that the only

people killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Japanese people."

The idea wasn't considered stupid by a number of highly placed people
involved in the war effort who were not historians. And they and those
who seriously try to examine the evidence are not necessarily "'blame

America first/America is the root of all evil' historians, and their

dupes."

If you look into this matter, you will find how wrong your expressed
views are.

Adam Littman

unread,

Jan 26, 2001, 11:23:21 PM1/26/01

to

Already looked into the matter. Enough to know that I am right. They were
barely willing to surrender _after_ two cities had been wiped out by nuclear
bombs, they certainly weren't ready to surrender before it. Otherwise they
would have done so. About a week went by between Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
plenty of time to signal their surrender if they intended to surrender at that
point. No, General Groves was right, he said they would have to drop two
bombs, once to let them know the US had the bomb, and a second to prove that
the US had more than one. At that point they couldn't know that we had just
depleted our nuclear arsenal. They surrendered rather than face the prospect
of more nuclear bombs.

The Potsdam declaration, made by the leaders of the USA, Britain and China,
demanded the immediate and unconditional surrender of the Japanese Empire.

They didn't mince words, and they were subtle neither in their demands, nor
on what the consequences would be if those demands were not met:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/093_03.html

"(3) The result of the futile and senseless German resistance to the might
of the aroused free peoples of the world stands forth in awful clarity as
an example to the people of Japan. The might that now converges on
Japan is immeasurably greater than that which, when applied to the
resisting Nazis, necessarily laid waste to the lands, the industry and the
method of life of the whole German people. The full application of our
military power, backed by our resolve, will mean the inevitable and
complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably
the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland."

"(5) Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are
no alternatives. We shall brook no delay."

The declaration was issued on July 26th, two months after the fall of the
Third Reich. The full and terrible might of the most powerful nations in the
history of this planet was being turned toward Japan. Did they surrender on
the 27th of July? Nope. How about a week later, after they had time to think
it over? Nope.

In fact "Japanese Premier Kantaro Suzuki announced to the
Japanese press that the Potsdam declaration was to be Ignored".

http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~dyue/wiihist/hiroshima/ytruman.htm

OK, well how about when the Russians invaded Manchuria? Nope.

Surely a nation already almost at the point of surrender would do so after a
nuclear bomb obliterated a city. So did they surrender on August 7th 1945,
the day after Hiroshima was wiped off the map? Nope.

Nor on the 8th

Nor on the 9th

Only on the 10th of August, the day after a _second_ bomb had been dropped did
they finally surrender. With the prospect of more cities to be destroyed as
inducement.

Their Admiral Yamamoto (a very clear thinker) said "I fear we have awakened a
sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."

A pity they didn't listen to him.

b...@antispam.net

unread,

Jan 27, 2001, 12:55:49 AM1/27/01

to

In article <Z2sc6.62735$ju6.6...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, al51
@nospam.cornell.edu says...

Going back to your inflammatory statements:

> No, but the idea that the Japanese were ready to surrender,
> and would have surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima
> and Nagasaki, _is_ a stupid thing.
>
> The deaths were neither senseless, nor needless. It is only the
> "blame America first/America is the root of all evil"
> historians, and their dupes, who think otherwise.

And your: "Already looked into the matter. Enough to know that I am
right."

You certainly have looked into the matter - from one side only. You
might be surprised if you looked at the other side.

Note that I am not defending whether or not the intelligence leaders who
thought the Japanese were ready to surrender were right. I am taking
issue with your contention that it is/was stupid, and that only
revisionists and U.S. bashers take that approach.

Adam Littman

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Jan 27, 2001, 1:32:50 AM1/27/01

to

In article <MPG.14dc2d49c...@news.earthlink.net>, b...@antispam.net wrote:
>In article <Z2sc6.62735$ju6.6...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, al51
>@nospam.cornell.edu says...
>
>Going back to your inflammatory statements:
>
>> No, but the idea that the Japanese were ready to surrender,
>> and would have surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima
>> and Nagasaki, _is_ a stupid thing.
>>
>> The deaths were neither senseless, nor needless. It is only the
>> "blame America first/America is the root of all evil"
>> historians, and their dupes, who think otherwise.
>
>And your: "Already looked into the matter. Enough to know that I am
>right."
>
>You certainly have looked into the matter - from one side only. You
>might be surprised if you looked at the other side.

I have looked at both sides. I went with the side that didn't require a huge
number of idiotic assumptions.

>Note that I am not defending whether or not the intelligence leaders who
>thought the Japanese were ready to surrender were right. I am taking
>issue with your contention that it is/was stupid, and that only
>revisionists and U.S. bashers take that approach.

Look, there is something you have to understand about academia, once you do,
the reason for all the historical revisionism (of all periods) that goes on
becomes clear. What you have to understand is that there is tremendous
pressure to publish papers. And papers that say the same old thing are not
likely to get published. In the sciences, this isn't a problem, since new
things are discovered all the time. In History on the other hand, the easiest
way to get something new is to come up with a position contrary to common
knowledge (and usually common sense as well) and then try to support it.

"Japan wouldn't have surrendered without the bomb" is the academic paper
equivalent of "dog bites man".

b...@antispam.net

unread,

Jan 27, 2001, 10:28:15 PM1/27/01

to

In article <mYtc6.63846$ju6.6...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
al...@nospam.cornell.edu says...

>
> I have looked at both sides. I went with the side that didn't require a huge
> number of idiotic assumptions.

Obviously, I completely disagree with you, but neither of
us wishes to change.

> Look, there is something you have to understand about academia, once you do,
> the reason for all the historical revisionism (of all periods) that goes on
> becomes clear. What you have to understand is that there is tremendous
> pressure to publish papers.

I perhaps understand more about academia than you realize.

> And papers that say the same old thing are not
> likely to get published. In the sciences, this isn't a problem, since new
> things are discovered all the time. In History on the other hand, the easiest
> way to get something new is to come up with a position contrary to common
> knowledge (and usually common sense as well) and then try to support it.
>
> "Japan wouldn't have surrendered without the bomb" is the academic paper
> equivalent of "dog bites man".

I am sure the "young Turks" have always done similar
things. However, in most disciplines, the fad passes
eventually.

And, of course, all of the above is irrelevant to the issue
of the bomb.

LenLW

unread,

Jan 29, 2001, 10:04:54 AM1/29/01

to

>From: Bern...@webtv.net

>I have a question for the whiners.

Not sure what you mean by "whiners" but you do have some good questions.

>Why don't we ever hear about the 1,500,000 gypsies that were
>sent to the camps?

You can hear about them by contacting the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, or
going on their website.

>Or the hundreds of thousands of germans who opposed
>the nazis?

Don't know where you get the "hundreds of thousands", but yes - some Germans
did oppose the Nazis. Some of these are listed as Righteous Ones in Yad
Vashem, in Israel.

>>Millions were killed but all we ever hear about are the jews.

Perhaps it depends on where you go for your information.

I
Len

LenLW

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Jan 29, 2001, 10:07:57 AM1/29/01

to

>From: "Dana Kerjbam"

>I understand your frustration, and humbly suggest perhaps you haven't been
reading the right books

In response to a posting, you said the above.
You are so right. Some people blind themselves by only looking at the sources
that reinforce their prejudices.
It would be interesting to know if that person would bother to read the book
you suggested - and there are many others which discuss the Holocaust period
telling about people other than Jews who were murdered, and the non-Jews
(Righteous Ones) who risked or gave their lives to save Jews.

Len

David Thornley

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Jan 30, 2001, 3:33:52 PM1/30/01

to

In article <94spg7$eo6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

<mickeymi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>I appreciate your post, particularly the point about Chinese
>suffering. As I posted elsewhere re this thread, there are issues out
>there. I am not an expert.
>

Yup. I'm pretty sure that the Chinese suffering wasn't an issue in
the decision, but if we're going back to argue whether the decision
was correct or not, we have to look at things that weren't considered
at the time.

>There are those that say the Japanese made an overture in the summer,
>but it was rejected because it wasn't unconditional.
>

The Japanese government asked the Soviet government to serve as a
go-between, and never could manage to decide what to ask them to
say. All other overtures that I know of were unofficial, vague,
and frequently had unacceptable conditions.

The Japanese were not asked to surrender unconditionally, although
the military was called on to do so. There were clauses in the
Potsdam declaration that ruled out some of the things the Japanese
had done to their victims, for example.

>There are those that say Nagasaki was unnecessary as well, and some say
>it went through because it was a plutonium bomb and not a uranium.
>That we wanted to impress the Soviets as such.
>

The Nagasaki *bomb* was probably necessary, since the Japanese seem
to have reacted quickly to it. It showed that the US had more than
one bomb, and hinted at unknown but large numbers. Whether it should
have been dropped on Nagasaki is another question. I liked the
speculation I read that it could have been dropped over Tokyo Bay,
where it would obviously have been another nuclear blast of high
yield.

However, I see no reason to drop one uranium and one plutonium bomb
to impress the Soviets with our versatility. I don't think the Soviets
were given enough information to be impressed with that officially
(and unofficially they had plenty of information on the US nuclear
program).

>I tend to believe it was, particularly in the choice of targets. I am
>open to reading those pro and anti arguments. I deplore the
>aftereffects.
>

All weapons have aftereffects, and the air bursts were not obviously
more horrible than some of the other horrible weapons.

>If the war could have been settled on reasonable grounds--eg, if the
>only sticking point was that the Emperor retain some sort of spiritual
>status, didn't that happen anyway? And therefore wasn't it a waste of
>Allied life as well as Japanese civilian lives?
>

That was the point the Japanese questioned us on, and got a
carefully crafted answer that said mostly "yes". That was what
the "doves" wanted to make sure of. What the hawks wanted was,
essentially, a status quo or status quo ante peace, which was
completely unacceptable to the Allies.

The Japanese grand strategy had been to attack, seize what they
wanted, and let the US exhaust itself against Japanese defenses.
The logical continuation was to let the US attempt to invade,
be defeated by the inconquerable Japanese spirit and possible
divine intervention (such as the hurricane that had saved Japan
once), and then talk terms.

>Did this happen because we stuck to unconditional surrender? And
>should we have?
>

It wasn't unconditional surrender, and the difference between that
and anything the Japanese government would have found acceptable
is very, very large.

>I don't have a problem with anyone asking these questions, though some
>might.
>

Nope; what would bother me would be somebody not listening to the
answers.

jacklegsju...@gmail.com

unread,

Sep 25, 2014, 2:58:38 PM9/25/14

to

On Monday, January 15, 2001 12:58:12 AM UTC-5, Doktor Tavische wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 05:07:56 +0000 (UTC), kmc...@nizkor.org.nospam wrote:
>
> >[Follow-ups set]
> >
> >January 15
> >
> >1944
> >
> >Three hundred fifty-one Gypsies of Belgian, French, Dutch,
> >German, and Norwegian nationality are included in the twenty-
> >third deportation convoy from the Belgian transit camp of
> >Malines (in Flemish, Mechelen) to Auschwitz. There are
> >thirteen Roma (Gypsy) survivors after the war. The same
> >transport includes 657 Belgian-Jewish deportees, of whom 140
> >men and 98 women survive initial selection on the ramp at
> >Auschwitz-Birkenau. (USHMM, 1994. Pg. 25)
> >
> >
> > Work Cited
> >
> >USHMM (United States Holocaust Memorial Museum). Fifty
> > Years Ago: Darkness Before Dawn: Days of Remembrance, April
> > 3-10, 1994. Washington, D.C.: 1994
>
> That was almost fifty six years ago!
>
> What about this relevant post which you continually avoid:
>
> We know that the Nizkor website relies on charitable donations in order to
> survive. We also accept that any organization whose survival depends on
> charitable donations should make its records open to the public. Will Ken
> McVay answer these questions as he is the director of Nizkor!
>
> Questions:
> 1) What is the tax number of Nizkor?
> 2) What is the physical address of Nizkor?
> 3) What is the phone number of Nizkor?
> 4) Where can one find the organizational papers for Nizkor?
> a) How many people compose the Nizkor staff?
> b) What are the financial responsibilities of Nizkor?
> 5) What is the evidence offered that Nizkor is authorized to
> solicit tax free contributions?
> 6) How much money does Nizkor Org receive yearly as charitable donations?
> 7) You show below that you pay yourself-- what is your yearly pay?
>
> http://x71.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=620760630
> Subject: Re: How much of a cut does the B'nai Brith get from Nizkor?
> Date: 05/08/2000
> Author: Kenneth McVay, OBC <kmc...@vex.net>
>
> >f) Does Ken McVay pay himself a salary for his work for Nizkor?
>
> Yup - I also appreciate revenue from public speaking and site advertising.
>
> ~~~~~~~End of DejaCom Archival Snippet~~~~~~
>
> 8) Is Nizkor proper (it's office and main facilities) located in a back
> room of your own residence as this says?
> http://www.Xgeocities.com/dcjarviks/Idler/vIn15.htmlX
> (Remove the X's to view the site, this is to help prevent McVay from
> spamming the search engines.)
>
> "A Voyage to Nanaimo-- It takes two hours to cross the Georgia Strait by
> ferry from Vancouver, British Columbia, another half-hour by jitney from
> the Nanaimo terminal to reach the home of Kenneth N. McVay, webmaster for
> The Nizkor Project . The address is an ordinary suburban split-level in a
> middle-class neighborhood. There is nothing distinctive about its
> location. .... I am taken to a back room, filled with computer equipment,
> monitors, and books... Seated in front of the array is McVay, apparently a
> 50-something computer nerd. He is tall, thin, with short hair and glasses,
> wired to the world through his ISP. The Nizkor project which McVay runs
> from this room in the back of his house... " <END>
>
> A question for all reading this:
> How many organizations which receive charitable contributions operate from
> the backroom of the director's home? He claims to be non-profit and it
> appears that he would have a low overhead-- so how much money does Ken
> McVay receive for his backroom operation?
>
> 9) What sort of legitimate organization keeps files on private citizens
> and publicly defames people on its "hit list" as yours does as proven in
> these documented posts?
> http://x67.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712310574&fmt=text
> "Nizkor's Ken McVay's Current DEFAMATION Hypocrisy For The Archives"
> http://x67.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712391781&fmt=text
> "Name Call and Personal Attack is All Nizkor's Ken McVay Can Muster"
> http://x61.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712299305&fmt=text
> "How Nizkor Director Ken McVay Acts When Exposed as a Liar"
>
> 10 ) Why should anyone wish to donate to an organization who has a
> director who's been caught in numerous lies in the past few days
> especially as documented here?
> http://x75.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=711985593&fmt=text
> "Attention: Ken McVay-- Speaking of Lying! Why Do YOU Keep Dodging Proof
> YOU Have a San Antonio Money Purse? MUST HAVE POST FOR YOUR ARCHIVES!"
>
> FOLKS THE ABOVE QUESTIONS ARE HONEST AND THEY SHOULD BE ANSWERED.
> WOULD YOU MAKE CHARITABLE DONATIONS FOR AN ORGANIZATION WHICH IS
> DEPICTED ABOVE? Any evasion by McVay should warrant your suspicions.
>
> Doc Tavish
>
> ~~~END~~~
>
> The above honest questions were answered in a very nasty and rude manner
> in which McVay intimidated lawsuits in order to silence me as shown here:
> http://x58.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712478164
> "Re: Is Ken McVay's WWW.NIZKOR.ORG A Sham Which Gets its Director Spending
> Money?"
>
> I then answered Mr. McVay's rude intimidation with this post and TWO
> additional followups which elaborated more on the first post:
> http://x54.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712697226&fmt=text
> "Now That NIZKOR.ORG's Ken McVay Brings Up Lawsuits-- Let's Talk About His
> and Nizkor's Civil Liability R 2"
> The first expansion of the above was this post:
> http://x52.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712741708&fmt=text
> The above installment shows illegal subpoenas being issued and the
> criminal activity waged against me that I have endured for over a year!
> http://x59.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712805233&fmt=text
> The second expansion elaborates on a Nizkor donor and his criminal
> activities.
>
> Also of interest:
>
> http://x76.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712094915
> "How Nizkor Director Ken McVay Acts When Exposed as a Liar aka Re:
> Attention: FatBoy: WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? R 3"
>
> http://x53.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=711985593&fmt=text
> "Attention: Ken McVay-- Speaking of Lying! Why Do YOU Keep Dodging Proof
> YOU Have a San Antonio Money Purse? MUST HAVE POST FOR YOUR ARCHIVES!"
>
> http://x61.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712310574&fmt=text
> "Nizkor's Ken McVay's Current DEFAMATION Hypocrisy For The Archives"
>
> http://x74.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712363191&fmt=text
> "Nizkor's Operations Apparently Appears to be Ken McVay's House!
> Charitable Donations Support This?" MUST READ!
>
> http://x75.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712373648
> "Rather Than Answer For His Dishonesty Nizkor's Ken McVay Resorts to
> Personal Attack on Don Ellis R 2"
>
> http://x52.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712392706&fmt=text
> "Name Call and Personal Attack is All Nizkor's Ken McVay Can Muster aka
> Re: Scottie's Head Apparently Appears to be Filled with Camel Dung!"
> The above post shows Nizkor director Ken McVay and a Nizkor supporter
> reducing themselves to making personal attack rather than refuting facts.
>
> http://x59.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=712660159&fmt=text
> "Nizkor's Ken McVay Caught in Another Lie? aka Re: Is Ken McVay's
> WWW.NIZKOR.ORG A Sham...."

I am looking for Susan Cohen wondering is she the wife of Bob Cohen> http://michaelslevinson.com find email address there oh well <jacklegsjumpingup.lev at gmail dot com>