DNA analysis shows: Hitler was a woman
dilore
archeologist Nick Bellantoni from the University of Connecticut,
confirmed that the scull belonged to a woman.
Now the remains of Eva Braun are under examination to see if she in
fact was male.
I knew it all the time....
Dirk
Rich Rostrom
> A DNA analysis of Hitler's skull, examined by a team under
> archeologist Nick Bellantoni from the University of Connecticut,
> confirmed that the scull belonged to a woman.
All this shows, of course, is that the burned
remains found by Soviet troops in the ruins of
Berlin were misidentified.
However, this reminds me of a story from the
memoirs of OSS research chief Stanley Lovell.
OSS psychologists decided that Hitler must be
"close to the male-female line", based on his
"poor emotional control, his violent passions,
his selection of companions like [Ernst] Rohm."
Of course this evaluation was mere stereotyping.
There is nothing about emotional control or the
lack of it that is particularly masculine or
feminine. And while Rohm and his clique of SA
leaders were notorious homosexuals, 1) they
were entirely "butch", 2) Hitler had no social
contact with them, and 3) Hitler had them all
shot in 1934.
However, Lovell and the OSS took this notion
seriously enough to act on it. "The hope was
that his mustache would fall off and his voice
become soprano." (More gross ignorance here.
Facial hair growth is triggered by male hormones,
but once started continues regardless. Male-to-female
transsexuals need electrolysis to eliminate their
facial hair, even after having their testicles
removed and extensive treatment with female hormones.
The voice register is also determined by hormonal
conditions during puberty and adolescence; once the
larynx and vocal chords have grown to maturity,
hormones have no more effect.)
Allegedly, an OSS agent or hireling was infiltrated
into the Berchtesgaden establishment, as a gardener
helping produce vegetables for Hitler's table
(he being a vegetarian). The agent was supplied
with female hormones to be injected into Hitler's
produce, "and... now and then a carbamate or other
quietus medication [poison]."
Since there was no apparent result, Lovell
concluded that the gardener took the OSS's
money and "threw the syringes and medications
into the nearest thicket."
Tero P. Mustalahti
> On Oct 1, 11:59 am, dilore <dirklo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A DNA analysis of Hitler's skull, examined by a team under
>> archeologist Nick Bellantoni from the University of Connecticut,
>> confirmed that the scull belonged to a woman.
>
> All this shows, of course, is that the burned
> remains found by Soviet troops in the ruins of
> Berlin were misidentified.
The skull fragment Bellantoni's team examined was in fact the one found
later (in 1946) around at the place where Hitler's and Eva Braun's
bodies were originally found. So there is a high chance that the
fragment did not actually belong to the same person, although Soviet
officials claim that it did. Soviet forensic science was not very
advanced in the 1940's, so such a mistake is certainly within the real
of possibility.
Furthermore, the scientists DID find male DNA in the stains of Hitler's
couch, where he supposedly shot himself. Bloodstains are of course not
proof of his death even if the blood was his, but at this point we have
to conclude that is impossible to confirm Hitler's suicide in the bunker
in the way the official history says it happened. The DNA found in the
couch was apparently too degraded for comparisons with Hitler's living
relatives. On the other hand there is no hard evidence to disprove the
official version either, so logically it still remains the best
explanation of his fate.
One final note: it is entirely possible that the female DNA found in the
skull fragment was contamination from another source. The scientists did
not have full access to the fragment. In order to really confirm the DNA
results, drilled samples from the skull fragment should be examined by
at least two independent labs. That is the standard procedure when
examining DNA from old bones that have not been preserved according to
modern (i.e. DNA-aware) forensic science requirements.
Tero P. Mustalahti
"nightjar" <cpb@
news:464e65bf-794b-4293...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>A DNA analysis of Hitler's skull, examined by a team under
> archeologist Nick Bellantoni from the University of Connecticut,
> confirmed that the scull belonged to a woman.
Russian archivists say there is no record that he ever had access to the
skull fragment
Colin Bignell
Roman Werpachowski
> Allegedly, an OSS agent or hireling was infiltrated
> into the Berchtesgaden establishment, as a gardener
> helping produce vegetables for Hitler's table
> (he being a vegetarian). The agent was supplied
> with female hormones to be injected into Hitler's
> produce, "and... now and then a carbamate or other
> quietus medication [poison]."
I don't understand -- if the OSS thought they managed to inflitrate
their agent into Hitler's inner circle and had him gain access to
Hitler's food -- why didn't they just attempt to poison him with
something lethal?
Regards,
Roman Werpachowski
GFH
> A DNA analysis of Hitler's skull, examined by a team under
> archeologist Nick Bellantoni from the University of Connecticut,
> confirmed that the scull belonged to a woman.
>
> Now the remains of Eva Braun are under examination to see if she in
> fact was male.
I suggest that you check Ernst von Salomon's book "Fragebogen".
(The Questionnaire -- available in English translation.) No, you
need not read the whole book, but EvS describes in some detail
meetings and visits with Hitler and Eva Braun. From his description
of her breasts, I think you can rule her out as a man. EvS was not
a Nazi; his live-in girlfriend was Jewish (kept secret for the whole
12
years); his experiences during and after the Nazi era are quite
interesting
and he was a writer by profession, so the book is well written.
He makes it quite clear that Hilter was male and Eva Braun was
female.
GFH
William Black
Because, reasonably obviously, they didn't think anything of the sort.
If they had done almost certainly 'OPERATION FOXLEY' would never have
got to the project planning stage without it being mentioned.
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
Rich Rostrom
> Roman Werpachowski wrote:
> > On Oct 1, 8:27 pm, Rich Rostrom <rrostrom.21stcent...@rcn.com> wrote:
> >> Allegedly, an OSS agent or hireling was infiltrated
>
> > I don't understand -- if the OSS thought they managed to inflitrate
> > their agent into Hitler's inner circle and had him gain access to
> > Hitler's food -- why didn't they just attempt to poison him with
> > something lethal?
Well, Lovell did mention
"and... now and then a carbamate or other
quietus medication [poison]."
> Because... they didn't think anything of the sort.
>
> If they had... 'OPERATION FOXLEY' would never have
> got to the project planning stage without it being mentioned.
Lovell's memoirs are far from reliable,
even on subjects he had direct knowledge of.
Note that I began the posting with "Allegedly".
But I thought the story was amusing and
sort of related to the thread subject.
Roman Werpachowski
> On Oct 4, 1:53 pm, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Roman Werpachowski wrote:
> > > On Oct 1, 8:27 pm, Rich Rostrom <rrostrom.21stcent...@rcn.com> wrote:
> > >> Allegedly, an OSS agent or hireling was infiltrated
> > >> into the Berchtesgaden establishment...
>
> > > I don't understand -- if the OSS thought they managed to inflitrate
> > > their agent into Hitler's inner circle and had him gain access to
> > > Hitler's food -- why didn't they just attempt to poison him with
> > > something lethal?
>
> Well, Lovell did mention
> "and... now and then a carbamate or other
> quietus medication [poison]."
Why "carbamate now and then", and not just a megalethal dose of
arsenic? Did Hitler have food testers? Would OSS think it impropert to
attempt to assasinate Hitler?
Regards,
Roman Werpachowski
Tero P. Mustalahti
> He makes it quite clear that Hilter was male and Eva Braun was
> female.
I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that Eva Braun was not a
woman. There is plenty of photographs and films where she clearly has
feminine features and even more importantly, no one of the surviving
Hitler's staff members ever even hinted to a possibility that she might
not be female. Similarly Hitler was clearly a man as confirmed by
multitude of sources.
On the other hand, contamination or misidentification of the DNA sources
are perfectly good explanations and not that unlikely explanations for
the anomalous results of the DNA tests. Then of course there are some
rare genetic conditions which lead to a female phenotype (outward
appearance) despite male chromosomes such as Complete Androgen
Insensitivity Syndrome, but those are quite rare and much less likely
explanations to the test results. Such persons are sterile, but as Eva
Braun had no children, CAIS nevertheless is a possible, if unlikely,
explanation.
Tero P. Mustalahti
Rich Rostrom
wrote:
> On 4 Oct, 22:18, Rich Rostrom <rrostrom.21stcent...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, Lovell did mention "and... now and then a carbamate
> > or other quietus medication [poison]."
>
> Why "carbamate now and then", and not just a megalethal dose of arsenic?
There would be better toxins to use than
arsenic, which I think would be difficult
to put into vegetables.
> Did Hitler have food testers?
Yes. Fabian von Schlabrendorff
saw Hitler at table during his
visit to Army Group Center in 1943.
Hitler was accompanied by his
personal physician, Dr. Morell,
who tasted all dishes before they
were served to Hitler. Schlabrendorff
found this a disgusting spectacle,
like some oriental despot.
Schlabrendorff also wrote that Hitler
did not eat with knife and fork, but
bent his head over to the level of
the table, and shoveled food into his
mouth with one hand.
> Would OSS think it improper... to asssasinate Hitler?
Not at all. Lovell also wrote of an
occasion when Hitler was to meet with
Mussolini at the Brenner Pass. The
OSS discussed various actions, including
parachuting a team of heavily armed
commandos into the area to shoot up the
meeting. Lovell suggested a trick involving
chemicals in a vase of flowers in water
that would fill the meeting room with a
gas that would leave anyone exposed blind;
then get the Pope to call it the judgment
of God and urge all Catholics in the Axis
armies to lay down their arms.
Rhino
>> Did Hitler have food testers?
>
> Yes. Fabian von Schlabrendorff
> saw Hitler at table during his
> visit to Army Group Center in 1943.
> Hitler was accompanied by his
> personal physician, Dr. Morell,
> who tasted all dishes before they
> were served to Hitler. Schlabrendorff
> found this a disgusting spectacle,
> like some oriental despot.
>
> Schlabrendorff also wrote that Hitler
> did not eat with knife and fork, but
> bent his head over to the level of
> the table, and shoveled food into his
> mouth with one hand.
>
are given a certain latitude by their underlings but it seems to me that a
Western leader who isn't sufficient civilized to use a knife and fork would
come across as an utter barbarian to anyone who met him. Seriously, this
seems only one step removed from the leader defecating in his own pants
rather than using a toilet.
Hitler presumably ate something like 3 meals a day every day of his life and
spent a bit over 12 years as Fuehrer and, of course, was very much in the
public eye for several years before 1933 as a prominent public figure.
Surely a behaviour as odd as shoveling food into his mouth with one hand
rather than using utensils would have been noticed long before 1943, unless
we are to assume that this behaviour only began at this time. Then I'd want
to know why this behaviour began.
--
Rhino
Rhino
> On the other hand, contamination or misidentification of the DNA sources
> are perfectly good explanations and not that unlikely explanations for the
> anomalous results of the DNA tests. Then of course there are some rare
> genetic conditions which lead to a female phenotype (outward appearance)
> despite male chromosomes such as Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome,
> but those are quite rare and much less likely explanations to the test
> results. Such persons are sterile, but as Eva Braun had no children, CAIS
> nevertheless is a possible, if unlikely, explanation.
>
Braun had been pregnant when she died, presumably carrying Hitler's child. I
seem to remember that this was revealed as one of those "now it can finally
be told" stories. I don't recall who made the claim so have no way of
knowing how credible it was. Perhaps someone here remembers the details
better than I do?
Certainly, if Eva Braun was pregnant when she died, it would tend to confirm
that she was a woman :-)
Of course, it doesn't prove Hitler was male. After all, she could
conceivably have had relations with another man. Of course, such a man would
have to be extremely brave or extremely foolhardy to have dared such an
affair....
--
Rhino
Rich Rostrom
> > Schlabrendorff also wrote that Hitler did not eat with knife and fork, but
> > bent his head over to the level of the table, and shoveled food into his
> > mouth with one hand.
>
> I find that a bizarre observation, to say the least. I know that dictators
> are given a certain latitude by their underlings but it seems to me that a
> Western leader who isn't sufficient civilized to use a knife and fork would
> come across as an utter barbarian to anyone who met him...
The description was in Schlabrendorff's
memoirs, as quoted by Constantine
Fitzgibbon in _20 July_ (also published
as _The Shirt of Nessus_; I have an
abridged paperback edition titled _Officers'
Plot to Kill Hitler_.)
Here is the full text of that part of the quote
"Hitler at table was a revolting sight. His
left hand he kept upon his thigh, while with
his right hand he shovelled his food, a diet
of all sorts of vegetables, into his mouth.
But he did so without raising his hand to
his mouth, keeping his right arm flat on
the table and bringing his mouth down to
his food."
That seems pretty definite, However,
I may have misinterpreted this passage,
as it does not say he did not use utensils.
It is possible that he " shovelled his food...
into his mouth" with a fork.
> Hitler presumably ate something like 3 meals a day every day of his life...
Aside from his years as a starving artist
in Vienna, and of course his service on
the Western Front.
> Surely a behaviour as odd as [this] would have been noticed long before 1943...
One may guess that Hitler avoided social
dinners with anyone not already wholly
bound to his service.
> unless we are to assume that this behaviour only began at this time.
Or at some other time after Hitler held supreme
power. _When_ would be interesting.
> Then I'd want to know why this behaviour began.
Another excellent question.
Michele
news:397060ee-a304-4d71...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> That seems pretty definite, However,
> I may have misinterpreted this passage,
> as it does not say he did not use utensils.
> It is possible that he " shovelled his food...
> into his mouth" with a fork.
It is indeed.
>
>> Surely a behaviour as odd as [this] would have been noticed long before
>> 1943...
>
> One may guess that Hitler avoided social
> dinners with anyone not already wholly
> bound to his service.
>
>> unless we are to assume that this behaviour only began at this time.
>
> Or at some other time after Hitler held supreme
> power. _When_ would be interesting.
>
>> Then I'd want to know why this behaviour began.
>
> Another excellent question.
>
When might be linked to why. I've never been too interested in the
speculations about the general health of Hitler, but I suppose it might be
possible that when he was young and healthy(ier) he might not have had some
condition that later came about and had this consequence, among others.
Louis C
> "Hitler at table was a revolting sight. His
> left hand he kept upon his thigh, while with
> his right hand he shovelled his food, a diet
> of all sorts of vegetables, into his mouth.
> But he did so without raising his hand to
> his mouth, keeping his right arm flat on
> the table and bringing his mouth down to
> his food."
Note that this doesn't mean he wasn't using a fork or a spoon. I
remember accounts (from Kershaw's biography maybe?) of his gulping
down his soup with heavy slurping from his spoon.
People who are not interested in food - as Hitler wasn't - and who are
used to eat alone or to snack a lot tend to evolve fairly revolting
table manners, usually involving trying to eat too much at the same
time.
Nothing exceptional here, I'm afraid.
LC
Ken S. Tucker
I've recently acquainted myself with the mosaic of human sexuality,
due to the controversy of socalled "same-sex marriage", and I find
that a definite division between male (YX) and female (XX) is complex,
for example a variation such as XXY in this ref,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
happens as well as many others, so it's possible Hitler may have
unique chromosones, since he didn't father, AFAIK.
Ken
Padraigh ProAmerica
Besides the drugs he took later in his life (reportedly his 'doctor'
gave him large doses of amphetamines), it has been noted he only had one
testicle (the other never descended- a rare, but not unknown medical
condition.)
"You must be an intellectual to believe such nonsense. No ordinary man
could be such a fool."
George Orwell
Alex Potter
> it has been noted he only had one
> testicle
Which led me to wonder if there was truth in the ditty, and came upon
this: <http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/881/did-hitler-have-only-
one-testicle> or <http://tinyurl.com/d5c62e>, which some may find amusing.
--
Regards
Alex
Tero P. Mustalahti
> I've recently acquainted myself with the mosaic of human sexuality,
> due to the controversy of socalled "same-sex marriage", and I find
> that a definite division between male (YX) and female (XX) is complex,
> for example a variation such as XXY in this ref,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
> happens as well as many others, so it's possible Hitler may have
> unique chromosones, since he didn't father, AFAIK.
The point was that there is no way an individual without the Y
chromosome could have a normal male appearance without the help of
advanced plastic surgery. Although it is possible that Hitler could have
had Klinefelter's syndrome, the genetic tests would still show the
presence of Y chromosome specific markers. It is not possible to get a
complete karyotype (chromosome determination) from old DNA samples,
since the chromosome structure has been degraded, so there is no
difference between XXY, normal XY and XYY males when determining sex
from old degraded DNA samples.
However, it _is_ possible that Eva Braun might have had CAIS (and thus
XY chromosomes) without anyone noticing anything unusual in her
appearance or behavior. Nearly all individuals with true CAIS have a
female gender identification and the only outward sign is the lack of
pubic hair, which one would not normally see.
Tero P. Mustalahti