Devastators vs. Avengers at Midway
John Brookes
so
poorly in th early days of the Pacific War, a poster (sorry - lost his
name) evidently confused a flight of 6 TBF's (Gruman Avengers - the
newest and most durable of the Navy torpedo planes) flown from Midway
under command of USN Lt. Fieberling, with 15 TBD Douglas Devastators
(old,slow and unreliable)from VT-8, part of the carrier Hornet's Air
Group. Neither flight did well. Only 1 of Fiberling's Midway-based
TBF's, piloted by Ensign A.K. Eranest, made it back to Midway, and
none
of Torpedo Squadron 8's TBD's returned, with one pilot rescued from a
ditching.
As has been mentioned several times, doctrine called for torpedo
planes
to arrive on scene only after fighters had engaged Japanese planes
aloft
and strafed ship targets. At Midway, this failed to happen. Of all 41
TBD Devastators that participoated in the attack on the Japanese fleet
at Midway, only 6 returned.
Beside the obvious vulnerability of the TBD's at Midway to enemy
fighters and antiaircraft fire during their torpedo runs, the torpedos
of the day were poorly engineered. Failures at this level were much
more
common than successes. With replacement of TBD's by TBF's after Midway
and the development of reliable torpedos, torpedo bombers following
doctrine became a significant part of the carrier arsenal until wars
end.
John Brookes
Brad Meyer
wrote:
>At Midway, this failed to happen. Of all 41
>TBD Devastators that participoated in the attack on the Japanese fleet
>at Midway, only 6 returned.
There is a post Midway picture of the number 7 plane from three TBD
squadrons that participated, parked side by side on Ford Island. In
each squadron that plane had either not been flown or survived the
battle.
Brad Meyer
"It is history that teaches us to hope"
-- R E Lee
--
William Wright
squadrons at Midway lost all but three aircraft by this break down:
VT-8: 15 A/C present, 15 A/C launched, 15 A/C failed to return.
VT-6: 14 A/C present, 14 A/C launched, 10 A/C failed to return, 1 A/C
jettisoned.
VT-3: 13 A/C present, 12 A/C launched, 10 A/C failed to return, 2 A/C
ditched, 1 A/C jettisoned.
CV-5: 3 A/C as overhead spares that sank with the ship.
Total: 45 A/C present, 41 A/C launched, 35 A/C failed to return, 2 A/C
ditched, 2 A/C jettisoned, 3 sank with YORKTOWN.
--
William Wright
Systems Architect
The Boeing Company
Brad Meyer <br...@ibm.net> wrote in message
news:8vurna$e83g$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu...
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:38:52 GMT, John Brookes <jbro...@pacific.net>
> wrote:
>
> >At Midway, this failed to happen. Of all 41
> >TBD Devastators that participoated in the attack on the Japanese fleet
> >at Midway, only 6 returned.
>
Ldysolaris
info states that they were originally intended to reinforce the TBD's aboard
Hornet but arrived at Pearl Harbor after Hornet and Enterprise had sailed.
They were then flown to Midway and were based on the island during the battle.
John Brookes
Thanks for the clarification. I'd wondered for some time just who the
hell they were, and for that matter whether they were even Navy, since
most (all ?)other single engined planes on Midway at the time belonged
to the Marine Corps, e.g Brewster F2A-3 Buffalos, a few Gruman F4F
Wildcats and a larger number of Vought SB2U-3 Vindicators. The rank of
the flight leader of that Midway VT-8 det, Lieutenant Langdon
Fieberling,didn't help much,as that rank fits either service.
However,that the pilot of the sole TBF to return was Ensign Albert
Earnest certainly suggested they were Navy. So VT-8 actually had 2
pilots and one aircrew survive Midway then, Ensign Gay and Ensign
Earnest. I suppose the omission of Earnest's name from later VT-8 lore
is because he flew from Midway not the Hornet, even though he was
detailed there ? Or maybe too because he was flying an Avenger not a
Devastator ?
John Brookes
RAL
that lost all it's planes and all but one pilot flying TBD's off the
Hornet. VT-8 was in the process of transitioning from TBD's to TBF's
when the Hornet left Norfolk for the Pacific and the Toyko Raid. Ten
pilots, under LT Larsen remained behind in Norfolk with the TBF's. As
action at Midway loomed, these pilots flew their planes across country,
loaded them on a transport carrier, and sailed for Hawaii. Upon
arrival, six, under Lieut. Feiberling, were sent to Midway Island to
help bolster the defense there, the remainder stayed in Oahu as
reserve. The morning of the Japanese attack, the six TBF's took off and
at around 0700 made an unsupported attack on the Japanese carriers.
Five of the six were shot down, the one plane that survived, piloted by
ENS Earnest, with both himself and the tunnel gunner wounded and turret
gunner dead, returned to Midway where it crash landed. Earnest received
the Navy Cross for his attack on the Japanese carriers and a second Navy
Cross for bringing back the aircraft. VT-8's losses at Midway were 15
TBD's and 5 TBF's - or, 19 pilots and 26 crewmen. Bert Earnest and
Harry Ferrier refer to themselves as "the other two sole survivors of
VT-8." Bert Earnest has told me that over the years he was often
challenged when he said he flew for VT-8 at Midway by folks who only
knew the George Gay story. Incidentally, the last VT-8 plane shot down
(probably Gay) went in around 0940, some 45 minutes before the Yorktown
and Enterprise SBD's arrived over the Japanese carriers. By then, the
Japanese were about 15 miles away from the scene of VT-8 TBD's last
gallant attack. About 30 minutes after VT-8's attack ended VT-6 from
the Enterprise went in with 13 TBD's (having lost one operationally).
This was another unsupported attack. VT-6 lost 9 TBD's - 18 men - in
the attack. The surviving planes returned to the Enterprise and the
crew of the one operational loss was recovered after the battle. Some
20 minutes later, the torpedo squadron that fatally distracted the
Japanese CAP from the approaching SBD's, VT-3, off the Yorktown, arrived
on the scene and initiated a long south to north attack on the
northernmost Japanese carrier, the Hiryu; this attack path forced them
to fly abreast of the entire Japanese carrier force in order to get in
position. VT-3 lost 10 of its 12 attacking aircraft in this attack and
the two survivors ditched upon return to the US fleet, two pilots and
one gunner were recovered - losses: 10 pilots (including one captured
and executed by the Japanese), 11 gunners. VT-3 was supported by six
F4F's from VF-3. These escorts also soaked up a goodly number of the
Japanese CAP. One F4F, piloted by LTJG Bassett, was shot down and
Bassett killed; the remaining pilots were credited with a total 6
A6M2's. The Japanese CAP reported taking on 18 Grumman fighters, so the
escort, commanded by LCDR Thach made quite an impression. The SBD's
arrived overhead in the middle of the VT-3 attack/VF-3 action, about
1040, VB-3 (Yorktown) took out the Soryu, VS-6 and part of VB-6 (both
Enterprise) - the Kaga, and the remainder of VB-6 - the Akagi. The
Hornet SBD squadrons, VB-8 and VS-8, were unable to locate the Japanese
carriers.
What is often not considered about Midway is that the Japanese were
under constant attack at 20 to 30 minute intervals starting with the
VT-8 Det. and the B-26's from Midway. Every time they got their
formations straightened out and started taking normal breaths another
attack came in. These attacks certainly colored Nagumo's thinking as
all these attacks were seemingly coming from the Island. He knew he had
to neutralize this air attack capability in order for the invasion to
succeed. And the submarine pickets (the ones that got in position after
TF's 16 & 17 had passed their patrol areas) hadn't reported the movement
of US carriers to the north from Pearl ... and the long range recon
flight (the one that didn't happen) didn't report them missing from
Pearl ... so there's a couple of surface ships in the area ... they can
be finished off later. Surprise.
Regards
Rich Leonard
William Wright
clear the battle zone. By my notes Nos. 0289, 0294, 0327, 0342, 0365, 0366,
0378, 1505 and 1512 were shot down over the enemy task force, 0367 ditched
returning to ENTERPRISE and 0338 was jettisoned over the side after landing
on ENTERPRISE. One other VT-6 TBD (0370) ditched on 5/28/42 when the air
group flew out to ENTERPRISE from Oahu. This brought the total VT-6 TBD
losses to all causes to 20 during the period 1939-1942 and total TBD
attrition for all units and all causes to 99 for the period 1938-1943.
--
William Wright
Systems Architect
The Boeing Company
RAL <rdkc...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:90jaid$774$1...@beast.TCNJ.EDU...
> <snip>
> About 30 minutes after VT-8's attack ended VT-6 from
> the Enterprise went in with 13 TBD's (having lost one operationally).
> This was another unsupported attack. VT-6 lost 9 TBD's - 18 men - in
> the attack. The surviving planes returned to the Enterprise and the
> crew of the one operational loss was recovered after the battle.
> <snip>
> Rich Leonard
>
RAL
Yup, you're absolutely correct. Got my ditching sequence backwards.
That was 6-T-8 (bn 0367) with Mach AW Winchell and DM Cossitt, ARM3c
aboard. They went in on their way back to Enterprise and were not
picked up until 21 June, the last, I believe, to be rescued.
Also surviving the attack:
6-T-3 (0279) Ens E Heck / DL Hickey, ARM3c
6-T-4 (0350) Ens RE Laub / WC Humphrey, Jr., ARM1c
6-T-5 (0368) Ens IH McPherson / WD Horton, ARM2c
6-T-11 (0338) ChMach SB Smith / WN McCoy, Sea2c
Thanks for the sharp eye!
Regards
Rich