Rommel/Kluge/Falaise Armistice

[Digger]

Here's hoping this one hasn't been thrashed out in this great newsgroup
before,so here goes...

Major-General Richard Rohmer, the Allied fighter pilot who strafed
Feldmarschall Erwin Rommel's Horch auto on 17 July 1944, injuring him
severely and removing him from the Battle of Normandy - a significant
turning point in the course of World War II - is alive and well in
Canada, an eminent writer and historian.
In 1986 Rohmer wrote an epic novel 'Rommel and Patton' based on the
intiguing hypothesis that Rommel and later Feldmarscall Hans von Kluge,
disillusioned by lack of support and equipment from Hitler, were
preparing an approach to the western Allies and arrange in the field of
battle an armistice!
At this stage of the struggle the fighting in Normandy had reached a
crescendo that ended with the closing of the Falaise Gap, 20 - 21 August
1944. What makes the theory fascinating is that the Falaise Gap could
have been closed much earlier, on the evening of 12 August 1944 but
Montgomery issued his infamous 'stop order'. Was this because of an
armistice attempt by Hitler's Commander-in-Chief West, Feldmarschall von
Kluge in the Falaise Gap?
The evidence is scant but fascinating:

1. Kluge, who replaced Rommel after his injury, simply vanished between
10:00 a.m. on 15 August 1944, failing to turn up at a meeting with two
of his generals just south of Falaise, until he surfaced at 10:00 p.m.
that night at an SS Panzer headquarters. He had been in a wireless
truck(!) all day and his explanation was that he had been shot up and
spent the day in ditch avoiding aircraft.
But what was Kluge doing that day? He committed suicide three days
later.

2. Allan Dulles, head of the American OSS wrote shortly after the war
that Kluge made "a futile attempt to surrender to General Patton's army
somewhere in the Falaise Gap". (see 'Germany Underground')

3. Dr. Udo Esch, Kluge's son-in-law told an Allied special agent after
the war that Kluge "considered surrendering the Western Front to the
Allies on his own authority..."

4. Hitler himself said at a Fuher Conference on 31 August 1944, just
thirteen days after Kluge committed suicide,
"Feldmarschal Kluge planned to lead the whole of the Western Army into
capitulation and to go over himself to the enemy. It seems that the plan
miscarried owing to an enemy-fighter bomber attack...Nevertheless the
British had reported being in contact with a German general."

So, were the Nazi chiefs, Rommel and Kluge, ready to deal with
Montgomery and Patton? Were they desperate to sign an armistice with the
western Allies to free their armies to fight the Russians? Was the 'stop
order' given in anticipation of an armistice thus allowing some 200,000
German troops to perhaps fight in the East!

I am well aware of the unconditional 'surrender mandate' but the SHAEF
'Surrender of German Forces', given 16 August 1944, one day after Kluge
disappeared makes specific reference to "ANY general instrument of
surrender imposed by the USA, UK, and the USSR".

So, is there any substance to this thesis? With the players involved
it's an incredible scenario. Is it just wild speculation or an unsolved
mystery. I've read plenty of books on this theatre of war but no one has
come close to describing the situation as pu above. I leave this here
hoping for comments from better armchair historians and researchers than
myself.

Thanx
Luc DiGuglielmo

[Linda Terrell]

In <642l57$4...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, Digger <Dig...@sympatico.ca> writes:

> At this stage of the struggle the fighting in Normandy had reached a
>crescendo that ended with the closing of the Falaise Gap, 20 - 21 August
>1944. What makes the theory fascinating is that the Falaise Gap could
>have been closed much earlier, on the evening of 12 August 1944 but
>Montgomery issued his infamous 'stop order'. Was this because of an
>armistice attempt by Hitler's Commander-in-Chief West, Feldmarschall von
>Kluge in the Falaise Gap?

Well, I have read that Rommel was prepared to "open up" the Western
Front -- that is, each commander would be free to surrender to Allies
or hightail it toward Berlin to protect it against the advancing Russians.

Kluge helped botch the July 20 assassination attempt by ordering people
who had taken key personnel to let them go, thereby signing their own
death warrents. I always thought that drove Kluge to suicide later, as he
knew about the plot and saw Hitler closing in on him.


lin...@ibm.net

[Osika]

Digger <Dig...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Major-General Richard Rohmer, ........snips.........
>................ an eminent writer and historian.

....................stuff deleted about armistice fantasy..........

I have not read Rohmers "Pattons Gap" but came across references and
criticism of his accounts in Carlo D'Este's "Decision in Normandy".

Page 454-5...
"...the idea (that a large number of Germans to escape the Allies as
some great Allied blunder)..is the result of accounts written for
their sensational value rather than for historical accuracy."

"...Rohmers "Pattons Gap" ...drawing a sweeping and highly inaccurate
conclusion that Montgomery bore sole responsiblity....."

" Rohmers misreading of Montgomery's intentions does a grave
disservice to useful discussion...to which there are no glib
solutions."

"Rohmer concludes..Montgomerys decision to deny Bradley..to move north
of Argentan was made on 12 August. .......this is nothing more than
conjecture."

"Rohmer.. misjudges..results (alleges 200-250 thousand troops,
enormous numbers of tanks and equipment escaped). In fact those
troops who managed to escape took little more than their personal
weapons..."

If such an eminent writer as D'Este is not impressed with Rohmers
work, I will keep my money in my wallet.

> So, were the Nazi chiefs, Rommel and Kluge, ready to deal with
>Montgomery and Patton?

Neither Montgomery or Patton would have the authority to negotiate
such a proposal....and why limit this to the most flamboyant
generals..why dont you mention Bradley, Hodges, Dempsey, or Crerar?
Because all the 'hype' always goes to M & P!

>Were they desperate to sign an armistice with the
>western Allies to free their armies to fight the Russians?

Rommel was out of action..Kluge's attention was focused on extracting
what he could from the Normandy debacle ....it sounds so simple to
just do an about face and march off to the Eastern Front. Dont you
think Herr Hitler would have a different spin on this?

And what about the Germans occupying the rest of France, the Low
Countries, Belgian and Scandinavia, do they just 'give back' control
in those countries and catch the next train or ship to the Eastern
Front? Do the Germans stop launching V1s at London and Churchill just
says OK, we think its to everyones benefit to let the Russians and
Germans fight it out! And IF the Germans WIN, what do you think the US
and Britain would do then?

> Was the 'stop
>order' given in anticipation of an armistice thus allowing some 200,000
>German troops to perhaps fight in the East!

Poppycock... When Haislips XV Corps arrived near Argentan, he was
allready inside the 'line' drawn to delineate the British operational
area. Patton apprised Bradley that he intended to continue moving
north on the 12th... a request which Bradley did not authorize. In
addition, Bradley did not request a change of boundaries from
Montgomery, while at 21st Army Group, Montgomery was informed of
Haislips' progress. Freddy de Guingand recorded that 21 AG staff urged
Monty to overrule Bradley, but he refused to do so. The next day
Patton gave Haislip 'permission' to advance slowly but Haislip
encountered much stiffer resistance than from the day previous.

It is possible that the gap could have been closed around this time
but it is not agreed that it would have remained closed. The Germans
fought desperately to escape when it was finally closed almost a
fortnight later. Haislips left flank was open, what was left of
Eberbachs force around Mortain was authorized by Hitler and Kluge to
hit this open flank and Haislips two armored divisions were not
'blooded'. The 5th US and 2nd French had 'pursued' a non-existent
enemy and had little combat experience. They would probably have
experienced the same difficulties that the 4th Canadian Armoured and
1st Polish Armoured Division suffered when they 'closed' the pocket
between Trun-St Lambert-Mt Ormel-Chambois.

>So, is there any substance to this thesis?

Should there be?

>Ive read plenty of books on this theatre of war but no one has

>come close to describing the situation as pu above.

Could it be that 'serious scholars' think it too ludicrous to expand
upon?

Best Regards
Dion Osika

[Linda Terrell]

>
> Kluge helped botch the July 20 assassination attempt by ordering people
>who had taken key personnel to let them go, thereby signing their own
>death warrents. I always thought that drove Kluge to suicide later, as he
>knew about the plot and saw Hitler closing in on him.

PS Then again, perhaps he did attempt a last-ditch peace initiative
to salve his conscious, but it failed and he suicided rather than end up
garroted with piano wire.
>
>lin...@ibm.net

[Alain Van Geeteruyen]

>From alan.

I do not know about an armistice, but I think for example that D-day
might have been helped by the German high command.
If you are intrested in hearing opinion, based on findings within the
german archives,I am willing to hare it. I tried some year ago to get it
on this newsgroup, but nothing came from it.
My story may be far stretched, but the facts I bing forward are in the
leat strange ? and I think worth-wile to be looked at closer. It might
be that in the end the stuff that I present is totally bull, but I do
not think so. In any case it it easy to check it out. Alone I cannot
find the 100% proof. However, during the years of research on the
coastal defences of Germany in WWI and II, and by the analysing of the
huge amount of War diaries of the different units, I might say, that
sometimes history is not that what we are inclined to think it is.

Hoping to have appetized your curiousity, i wait for you discussion.

Alain.
Belgium.- Knokke

[Claire Sylvestre]

Osika wrote in message <64aso9$n...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...

>
>What is the basis of the claim that Rohmer was responsible for
>shooting up Rommel? In After the Battle No. 4, the article on Rommels
>accident , credits Sqd Ldr J.J. Le Roux, a South African, from 602
>Squadron (City of Glasgow).
>
>Can you explain?
>
>Best Regards...
>Dion Osika
>
>

Rohmer never claimed to be the pilot who strafed Rommel. IIRC, on that day
he was on a reconnaissance flight during which he spotted a command car
(which may or may not have been that of Rommel). Back to his base he
reported his observation.

Claire Sylvestre

[Digger]

Osika wrote:

>
> Digger <Dig...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >Here's hoping this one hasn't been thrashed out in this great newsgroup
> >before,so here goes...
>
> > Major-General Richard Rohmer, the Allied fighter pilot who strafed
> >Feldmarschall Erwin Rommel's Horch auto on 17 July 1944, injuring him
> >severely and removing him from the Battle of Normandy - a significant
> >turning point in the course of World War II - is alive and well in

> >Canada, an eminent writer and historian.

>
> What is the basis of the claim that Rohmer was responsible for
> shooting up Rommel? In After the Battle No. 4, the article on Rommels
> accident , credits Sqd Ldr J.J. Le Roux, a South African, from 602
> Squadron (City of Glasgow).
>
> Can you explain?
>
> Best Regards...
> Dion Osika

My mistake. Rohmer was a fighter reconnaissance fighter who apparently
spotted Rommel's southbound staff car at 5:12 p.m. DBST (or 4:12 German
time). He called Group Control Centre, reported the location and turned
his formation westward. He did not stay to find out if any fighter
responded to his information. According to Operations Record Book for 17
July 1944, this is the only report of a staff car sighting made by 430
Squadron pilots during it's operations on the Normandy beachead.
He spotted the huge staff car filled with people of rank because of
uniform colour and markings on a narrow road leading off the St.
Pierre-sur-Dives-Liavarot highway. This is where Rommel would have been
having left the headquarters of Dietrich at St. Pierre-sur-Dives at 5:00
p.m. DBST (4:00 German time). Rommel's Horsch was strafed 19 kilometres
from Dietrich's headquarters.
Was it Squadron Leader Le Roux of 602 Squadron RAF who did the
strafing? His Personal Combat Report makes no such claim. What he did
claim was the destruction of a ME109 aircraft 50 km away soutwest of
Flers. According to Rohmer Le Roux was not airborne when Rommel's car
was strafed at 5:15 DBST (4:15 German time). The Operations Record Book
for 602 RAF Squadron shows Le Roux was airborne from 3:40 DBST to 4:45
DBST (3:45 German time!). He thinks the overlap of DBST (Double British
Standard Time) time with German time caused the error,
I don't know if Rohmer is right or wrong and I don't like the idea of
questioning credit for such a significant event. Maybe someone out there
has more information.

P.S. Thanks for your query. Rohmer' book is titled 'Rommel and Patton'.
Luc DiGuglielmo

[John Waters]

On Tue, 04 Nov 1997 22:35:20 -0500, Digger <Dig...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> But what was Kluge doing that day? He committed suicide three days
>later.

Interesting, also von Kluge did not commit, suicide at all, he was
murdered on Himmlers orders, by SS Brigadefuher Jurgen Stroop .
Stroop made sure Kluge's death appeared to be an suicide as well.

* See: Williamson Gordon. The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror. pp.
90. 1994. Motorbooks International.

Regards, John Waters.

[Claire Sylvestre]

What about the letter to Hitler he wrote prior to committing suicide?

Claire Sylvestre

John Waters wrote in message <64klqu$122a$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>...

[Drazen Kramaric]

John Waters wrote:

> Interesting, also von Kluge did not commit, suicide at all, he was
> murdered on Himmlers orders, by SS Brigadefuher Jurgen Stroop .
> Stroop made sure Kluge's death appeared to be an suicide as well.

I read Williamson's book too. However, this was the only place where I
read that information.

If we take into account that when faced with similar situation with
Rommel, Hitler left the dirty job to Wehrmacht generals, not to SS
personnel.

Somehow, it is hard for me to accept that Wehrmacht would allow Himmler
to kill its fieldmarshall just like that.

Drax

[Dirk Lorek]

jwa...@imcnet.net (John Waters) wrote:

> Interesting, also von Kluge did not commit, suicide at all, he was
> murdered on Himmlers orders, by SS Brigadefuher Jurgen Stroop .
> Stroop made sure Kluge's death appeared to be an suicide as well.
>
>

> * See: Williamson Gordon. The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror. pp.
> 90. 1994. Motorbooks International.

Something like that seemed indeed to have happened. Although I think
it's not quite clear if von Kluge was forced to commit suicide or if
Stroop killed him. Stroop describes the event in 'Conversations with
an Executioner' by Kazimierz Moczarski, who was imprisoned by the
communists together with Stroop in a Polish prison for 255 days in
1949. Although Stroop was one of the worst SS-thugs and not the man I
normally would by a used car of, his conversation with Moczarski was
probably uttered with the frankness of a man under sentence of death.

"The next day, August sixteenth, I started 'direct' action against
Kluge. Twenty-four hours earlier, Heinrich Himmler had warned me that
the Führer was about to remove the field marshal from his command at
the front. So we had to work fast...When we stopped the car in which
he was riding with two of his staff officers, Kluge, always the actor,
denied everything. We took him to a town in my district,
Dombasle-sur-Meurthe....During the next few days von Kluge was grilled
by two of my staff officers and one of Heinrich Himmler's men...On Aug
19, in the early morning, I had my second private talk with Kluge.
This time I pulled no punches...Seeing that I was getting nowhere, I
placed a loaded pistol on the table and walked out. Fifteen minutes
later I returned. The gun lay untouched. I replaced it with a glass of
water and some poison. Moczarski: What finally happened, Herr General?
Stroop: The field marshal ended up sprawled on a beautiful carpet with
a hole in his head."

In regard to the armistice, Stroop says:

"In the midst of the fighting von Kluge contacted the British. He
agreed to negotiate over some seemingly innocent matters: the exchange
of wounded prisoners, women personnel (nurses and 'Blitzmädchen') and
the return of bodies of higher-ranking officers. In order to keep his
nose clean, Kluge delegated one of his trusted colonels to carry out
the secret action, which he later denied having been involved with in
any way. The arrangements were begun by wireless in a special code
(yes, meine Herren, he communicated with the enemy in code). This in
turn led to direct contact between intermediaries...Kluge remained a
participating member [of a military Masonic lodge, DL] all his life.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the negotiations over the exchange
of dead and wounded weren't cooked up by the British intelligence with
the help of the Scottish lodge...Kluge went further still. Exchanging
prisoners wasn't really that serious,...What really enranged the
Reichsführer was that Kluge was negotiating with the Anglo-Saxons and
French for a separate peace on the Western Front...a cease-fire was to
be the first stage, Herr Moczarski. Once the army was relieved from
the fierce ground action and the brutal air assaults it would take
over the front-line area and the territories along the Rhine. As
commander in chief of this vast fighting force now in rebellion, the
turncoat Kluge would assume control of the new military and political
machine. He would also serve as a kind of Reich's viceroy for the
regions beneath his command. Eventually he would be joined by other
generals, surviving members of the opposition, and various
fellow-traveling politicians."

[posted and emailed]

I>irk
______________________________________________________________________
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