Tommy, GI, Jerry...
Aldrin
Yank, Jerry for a German, etc. Did other countries have similar nicknames
for their soldiers?
Thanks,
Aldrin.
Valletort
You asked:<< Where did the nicknames come from? Tommy for a British soldier, GI
for a
Yank, Jerry for a German, etc. >>
character (cartoon character??). GI stands for General Issue, like Jeep - GP-
General Purpose. Jerry was a term applied by Brits, and probably others, to
Germans as a whole, not just the German soldier. I don't know what the Germans
called their troops. Hope this helps.
John Cornelius
USA
vall...@aol.com
Reasearching Champernowne, Hill, Lang, Manning, Mortimore, Newman, Prentice,
Prout, Snell, and Wreford
TSBench
<mo...@easynet.co.uk> writes:
>Where did the nicknames come from? Tommy for a British soldier, GI for a
>Yank, Jerry for a German, etc. Did other countries have similar nicknames
>for their soldiers?>>>>
GI stood for Government Issue, which was what his equipment was. The name just
stuck.
I believe Tommy derives from Tommy Atkins, which may come from a Kipling poem
or story. Obviously, some British member of the newsgroup will be more than
happy to come up with a correct answer.
Jerry, for German, was picked up by the American's from the Brits. The
American's usually used the word "Kraut', which probably came from the word
sauerkraut and sounded Germanic..
Regards,
TSB
Bill Walker...Producer and Cohost of The Shooting Bench radio
program....General Manager, WDIS-Radio, Norfolk, Massachusetts.
Phillip McGregor
>In article <7bs783$2epn$2...@quince.news.easynet.net>, Aldrin
><mo...@easynet.co.uk> writes:
>I believe Tommy derives from Tommy Atkins, which may come from a Kipling poem
>or story. Obviously, some British member of the newsgroup will be more than
>happy to come up with a correct answer.
I believe that its actually older. AFAIK the British Army Paybook (a cross between a
portable service record and an ID card) had, printed on the insider front card cover an
example page ... filled in for one "Tommy Atkins". I believe that Kipling got if from
there.
Phil
James A. Wolf
>Where did the nicknames come from? Tommy for a British soldier, GI for a
>Yank, Jerry for a German, etc. Did other countries have similar nicknames
>for their soldiers?
>
Tony- British Army sample forms were filled out 'Thomas Atkins'. In
short order the name became an everyman in uniform: Kipling used it
for example.
GI: Government Issue.
Jerry: According to 'Brewster's', it's an old term for a chmber pot,
which the German helmet resembled.
Russia was Ivan, for obvious reasons.
<*> James A. Wolf - jaw...@tiac.net - www.tiac.net/users/jawolf <*>
"The jawbone of an ass is | "You really shouldn't |"There is no law for those
just as dangerous a weapon | encourage my socio- |who make the laws and no
today as in Samson's time."| pathic tendencies." |law for the incorrigibly
Richard Nixon | Florence King |lawless." Terry Prachett
[PLEASE BUY 'THE ULTIMATE HULK' ANTHOLOGY, WITH MY FIRST PUBLISHED STORY!]
R Sterner
Yes, I know it's derrogatory... but look at the situation from the GI's
point of view. France was thus far 0-2 in World Wars and required UK and
US help. Remember GI's didn't know the 'full tactical and strategic
picture.'
The French called the Germans several things(French Civilians): Bosche and
Shleuh
My spelling my be suspect, and I'm not sure where they came from
originally... I read an account of the 1st SAS in france working with the
Maquis.
Speaking of nicknames... didn't the Brittish sometimes refer to the peoples
of the middle east(civilians and soldiers) as "Wogs" ?
What about the Italians? Didn't they have a nick name?
I do know of a derrogatory joke(which I've always heard attributed to
the Italians, but the nationality could have easily been changed):
Do you want a rifle?
Well, I don't know. Who made it?
It's an Italian rifle... only dropped once.
"In Later Days men can find a charm in old adversity, exile and pain."
Homer, from the Odyssey
George V. Huse, Jr.
naming convention for Brits, similar to "John Bull", as it was used in
the past.
The GI came from the term "Government Issue". In WWI, US troops were
called "Doughboys" from the large buttons on the uniforms.
Jerry = diminutive form of German??? Like Britty for British???
How and when these first came into being, I haven't a clue.
Aldrin wrote:
>
> Where did the nicknames come from? Tommy for a British soldier, GI for a
> Yank, Jerry for a German, etc. Did other countries have similar nicknames
> for their soldiers?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aldrin.
--
Buzz Huse E-Mail: mailto:buzz...@flash.net
Euless, Texas, USA Homepage: http://www.flash.net/~buzzhuse/
"These opinions/comments are entirely my own and no one else's."
Chris Price
> <snip>
> As far as I know, Tommy comes from Tommy Atkins, a WWI British soldier
>
> character (cartoon character??).
<snip>
Thomas Atkins or Tommy is early nineteenth century and, IIRC, derives
from the specimen name used in the army instruction manuals of the time.
It was certainly current by the time of Kipling
"Oh it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and 'Tommy wait outside'
But it's 'thin red line of heroes when the troopers on the tide"
Chris Price
MakinKid
era before indoor toilets), the alleged shape of the german army helmet.
it would be a perjorative and not in the same class as Tommy or GI, which
were names given by their own countrymen.
I read somewhere that Japanese soldiers were called "penny postcards" (or
the equivalent in Japanese). that was how a man was notified that he had
been drafted.
Makin
DanielR
> >In article <7bs783$2epn$2...@quince.news.easynet.net>, Aldrin
> ><mo...@easynet.co.uk> writes:
> >I believe Tommy derives from Tommy Atkins, which may come from a
> >Kipling poem or story.
> I believe that its actually older. AFAIK the British Army Paybook (a
> cross between a portable service record and an ID card) had, printed on
> the insider front card cover an example page ... filled in for one
> "Tommy Atkins". I believe that Kipling got if from there.
Ah ! The infamous AB64 Army Pay Book (Part 1). Yes the example was
for a Thomas Atkins but whether this predates Kipling or followed him
I do not know.
The story rings true though.
--
Cheers
Danielr
"I wish I had a concise, witty and apposite sig to attach to my emails
(unlike all the others)...."
James A. Wolf
>
>
>Speaking of nicknames... didn't the Brittish sometimes refer to the peoples
>of the middle east(civilians and soldiers) as "Wogs" ?
Wog (Wllley Oriental Gentleman, or a contraction of golliwog) is a
generic British derogatory term for non-whites.
>What about the Italians? Didn't they have a nick name?
Probably whatever racist terms were in vogue.
efr...@mocha.memphis.edu
>>happy to come up with a correct answer.
>
> portable service record and an ID card) had, printed on the insider front card cover an
> example page ... filled in for one "Tommy Atkins". I believe that Kipling got if from
> there.
It's been decades since I read this (in the Longford
bio?) but ISTR that "Tommy Atkins" traces back to
the 1830s, when the Duke of Wellington was C-in-C
of the British Army. Needing a name to plug in
for the new-fangled paybook, he remembered one of
the soldiers of his regiment who died in the Low
Countries in 1793(?).
Or is this just a sentimental tale?
Ed Frank
George V. Huse, Jr.
Atkins") :
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~d8135hn1/tommy.html
Phillip McGregor
>I understand that "jerry" is short for "jerrycan" or chamber pot (from the
>era before indoor toilets), the alleged shape of the german army helmet.
>it would be a perjorative and not in the same class as Tommy or GI, which
>were names given by their own countrymen.
Hmm, I believe that "Jerrycan" came from the name given to the metal
water/petrol cans the Germans used in North Africa ... basically the same
as the standard NATO design for them today. The Brits, who used square
tins that deformed under the slightest little pressure (such as being on a
truck on a rocky road), were *very* envious and snaffled the German ones
wherever possible, hence the name.
Phil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | asp...@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
| mcgr...@locs.org (emergencies only!!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Peter Frazier
>
> Speaking of nicknames... didn't the Brittish sometimes refer to the peoples
> of the middle east(civilians and soldiers) as "Wogs" ?
>
The Italians were referred to as Eyeties (at least by the Aussies), maybe also
Dagos.
Wog was a term used for the Arabs, it was also a generic term for refugees
after the war.
Peter
Thomas Buell
: The American's usually used the word "Kraut', which probably came from the
: word sauerkraut and sounded Germanic..
<set condition TINS>
"Kraut" may be of a similar naval origin as "Limey". While the Royal Navy
issued a daily ration of lime juice to prevent vitamin C deficiency and
scurvy German ships often carried barreled Sauerkraut for the same pupose.
I'm not sure about this. Anybody to confirm or refute?
Thomas
pet...@ms.com
maki...@aol.comment (MakinKid) wrote:
> I understand that "jerry" is short for "jerrycan" or chamber pot (from the
> era before indoor toilets), the alleged shape of the german army helmet.
> it would be a perjorative and not in the same class as Tommy or GI, which
> were names given by their own countrymen.
>
Somewhere I read that the British spare gas cans were not very
good and that, whenever possible, they would take the cans off
of captured or destroyed German vehicles. Hence "Jerry Can" for
a spare gas can.
Maybe
Pjk
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Phillip McGregor
>I understand that "jerry" is short for "jerrycan" or chamber pot (from the
>era before indoor toilets), the alleged shape of the german army helmet.
>it would be a perjorative and not in the same class as Tommy or GI, which
>were names given by their own countrymen.
Hmm, I believe that "Jerrycan" came from the name given to the metal
Phillip McGregor
Bill Shatzer
In a previous article, Thomas...@tu-clausthal.de (Thomas Buell) says:
>TSBench (tsb...@aol.com) wrote:
>: The American's usually used the word "Kraut', which probably came from the
>: word sauerkraut and sounded Germanic..
>"Kraut" may be of a similar naval origin as "Limey". While the Royal Navy
>issued a daily ration of lime juice to prevent vitamin C deficiency and
>scurvy German ships often carried barreled Sauerkraut for the same pupose.
>I'm not sure about this. Anybody to confirm or refute?
It seems unlikely. The German Navy was never a "blue water" fleet -
sailing for weeks or months at sea as did the Royal Navy during the
age of sail. Basically, the German Navy was based in ports and
its time at sea was quite limited. Under these circumstances, there
would be no need for antiscorbutics.
In any case, the German Navy did not exist prior to the age of steam
and steam ships cannot remain at sea longer than their bunker coal
supply lasts. Generally it would seem that a steam ship would run
out of coal long before it ran out of fresh food. Unlike sailing
ships, a steam ship would have to return to port periodically for
recoaling where the fresh food supplies could be replenished as well.
There would be no need for an antiscorbutic such as lime juice
under these circumstances. And, of course, canning as a method of food
preservation was in common use by the time there was a German Navy
as well - and as adequate vitamin C to prevent scurvy would have been
available through canned fruits and vegetables, specific antiscorbutics
would have been unnecessary in any event - even if the ships spent
long times at sea.
And finally, I think I remember reading someplace that sauerkraut is
not a good antiscorbutic in any event. I think I recall some
ship's captain trying sauerkraut during the 18th century and finding
that it worked not at all in preventing scurvy.
Cheers and all,
--
Bill Shatzer - bsha...@orednet.org
"Cave ab homine unius librum."
George Hardy
asp...@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor) says:
>I believe that "Jerrycan" came from the name given to the metal
>water/petrol cans the Germans used in North Africa ..
That is what I understand. First "Jerry" for Germans, then "can"
for, well, can. I would guess that "Jerry" comes from the word
"German" -- specifically the "Ger" part. Remember "G" has two
sounds in English "J" as in Jesus and "G" as in God -- a joke from
my old ITT days under Geneen (as in Jesus).
GFH
***************************************************************
http://www.ankerstein.org/
The Anchor Stone Building Set (Anker-Steinbaukasten) Home Page
See what makes me tick.
***************************************************************
MakinKid
>I believe that "Jerrycan" came from the name given to the metal
>water/petrol cans the Germans used in North Africa ... basically the same
>as the standard NATO design for them today. The Brits, who used square
>tins that deformed under the slightest little pressure (such as being on a
>truck on a rocky road), were *very* envious and snaffled the German ones
>wherever possible, hence the name.
That may be true. But my dear old grandfather, who served with the Royal Army
in World War One, always called Germans jerries, and referred to the chamber
pot under his bed when he was in hospital in his declining years as a jerry.
On the off-chance that the word might be in the OED, I checked. Alas not, but
I did note that it lists "jerry" as "a mean, sneaking fellow," with references
going back to the 18th century, also "bad, defective and deceptive," thus
jerry-built. German-made products once had a reputation for shoddiness, thus
the phrase, "on the fritz," for something that has failed. I could see a
natural migration of the word "jerry" from a general negative meaning to a
specific one designating a German foe, especially since said foe had a
reputation for shoddy constructions--you'd have two meanings that would fit the
designee.
I checked a dictionary of slang which defines "jerry" as a German soldier, not
particularly helpful. But it does note that the slang word originated in WWI
and was "very common British Army slang" for Germans in that war. That would
definitely pre-date its use well before the North African campaign of WWII.
Makin
nightjar
Phillip McGregor wrote in message <7c77cj$7...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
>
>Hmm, I believe that "Jerrycan" came from the name given to the metal
>water/petrol cans the Germans used in North Africa ... basically the
same
>as the standard NATO design for them today. The Brits, who used square
>tins that deformed under the slightest little pressure (such as being
on a
>truck on a rocky road), were *very* envious and snaffled the German
ones
>wherever possible, hence the name.
The British fuel tins did have one advantage over the jerrycan. Hundreds
of them cut up and carefully laid out made a very convincing dummy
railway line. A dummy railhead, built from more tins and canvas trucks
made it appear to aerial reconnaissance that the British lines were well
in advance of their real position. This piece of deception was used at
least twice during the North Africa campaign and the dummy railheads
were convincing enough to be bombed several times. A sapper sitting some
distance away in a bunker was responsible for setting off explosive
charges under stacks of condemned fuel to make the results appear more
realistic.
Colin Bignell
James A. Wolf
>Phil McGregor wrote:
>
>>I believe that "Jerrycan" came from the name given to the metal
>>water/petrol cans the Germans used in North Africa ... basically the same
>>as the standard NATO design for them today. The Brits, who used square
>>tins that deformed under the slightest little pressure (such as being on a
>>truck on a rocky road), were *very* envious and snaffled the German ones
>>wherever possible, hence the name.
>
>That may be true. But my dear old grandfather, who served with the Royal Army
>in World War One, always called Germans jerries, and referred to the chamber
>pot under his bed when he was in hospital in his declining years as a jerry.
<snipped his research through various dictionaries>
Try Brewster's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. They have Jerry
originating from the slang for chamberpot- since the German helmets in
WW1 resembled them. The word 'Jerrycan' was subsequently applied to
the German fuel containers.
MakinKid
>>"Kraut" may be of a similar naval origin as "Limey".
Looking in my dictionary of slang, it says the phrase was promoted in WWII by
it's use in Stars and Stripes, but was not widely used by the troops. Says it
was more popular in WWI and commonly used by US troops to describe Germans. At
the time, it was a common American term for German immigrants, short for
krauthead. A kraut is also defined as "a mean or grouchy person." Interesting
comparison with the original meaning of "jerry."
I checked in H.L. Menken's The American Language and found the following list
of loan words the AEF picked up from the British during WWOne: ace, blimp,
cootie, Frog, JERRY, blotto, strafe and whiz-bang.
Loan words the British picked up from the Americans included: kibosh, nix,
pal, cold-feet, chew the rag.
Menken says most slang from WWI coming from either Britain or America was slang
already current in the regular armies of the two countries, which, thanks to
conscription, made its way into the general vocabulary of the entire nation for
the first time. So it's possible the Royal Army had been using Jerry to
describe Germans for quite some time, maybe even centuries.
For American, Menken cites these regular army words that came into common use
with WWI that had been used by the US military for at least 100 years prior to
WWI with their still-current meanings: slum, chow, punk, civvies, outfit,
doughboy, jawbone, buck-private, top-kick, gob, leatherneck.
An AEF veteran could be spotted by the phrases he used that later came to be of
common use:
"You're telling me (from the French a qui le dites-vous), get one's goat
(French prendre sa chevre), etc.
Menken is so interesting, I'm just going to keep reading.
Makin
Rob Davis
>Wog was a term used for the Arabs, it was also a generic term for refugees
>after the war.
Originally, "Wily Oriental Gentleman" i.e. a clever Dick, or slippery
customer. Probably from the Raj, as in England, bargaining in markets
is not done. (Except maybe in modern car boot sales!)
MCM97
MCM97
James A. Wolf
>So what did the Germans call us?
>
Amis- at least according to 'The 100 Days'.
AndreasConze
>
>In a previous article, Thomas...@tu-clausthal.de (Thomas Buell) says:
>
>>TSBench (tsb...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>>: The American's usually used the word "Kraut', which probably came from
the
>>: word sauerkraut and sounded Germanic..
>
>>"Kraut" may be of a similar naval origin as "Limey". While the Royal Navy
>>issued a daily ration of lime juice to prevent vitamin C deficiency and
>>scurvy German ships often carried barreled Sauerkraut for the same pupose.
>
>>I'm not sure about this. Anybody to confirm or refute?
>
to "Limey" appear
to be far fetched.
Sauerkraut, and even in German ears the word does not sound very graceful,
has always been something of a national dish especially among the poor
people in Germany.
Now, it is not uncommon to name people after what they eat derogatorily. And
this is what happened.
Donald Phillipson
> That is what I understand. First "Jerry" for Germans, then "can"
> for, well, can. I would guess that "Jerry" comes from the word
> "German" -- specifically the "Ger" part. Remember "G" has two
Jerry was (for Britons) new in WW2. In WW1 British troops
usually called Germans "Fritz" (singular) or "Huns" (plural.)
Fritz is short for Friedrich, a common name among 19th century German
princes. Kaiser Wilhelm II said in one of his
official messages his troops should be as swift
and ruthless as the Huns.
--
| Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs, |
| Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734 |
E.F.Schelby
>Try Brewster's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. They have Jerry
>originating from the slang for chamberpot- since the German helmets in
>WW1 resembled them. The word 'Jerrycan' was subsequently applied to
>the German fuel containers.
I also saw this in my Brewster's. Shows you how utterly charming all
these slang terms for the Germans are - running from chamber potters
to boche to horrid Huns. Good grief, folks, you really make it hard
to be a Kraut - if one would take such things seriously.
Cheers,
ES
Tommi Syrjanen
> Aldrin wrote:
> > Yank, Jerry for a German, etc. Did other countries have similar nicknames
> > for their soldiers?
Probably every country called their enemies with various nicknames and
degratory terms, and many have also nicknames for their own troops.
In Finnish there is no common nickname for Finnish soldiers like Tommy
Atkins for British. During WWII the propaganda often used term
"korpisoturi", which could be translated as "wilderness warrior". The
term was too long for common use.
The Finnish term for Germans was "saku", which was derived from word
"saksalainen", meaning literally "German". The general expression for
Americans is "jenkki", derived from "yank", but I'm not sure if it was
in common use already during WWII.
For Russians Finns had a lot of names, most degratory. The most common
was (and to tell truth, still is) "ryssä" (the last letter should be a
with two dots on it). "Ryssä" is probably derived somehow from "Rus"
and it is very old term. Originally it was neutral in meaning, but for
about a hundred years it has had quite negative connotations.
Two other common terms were "iivana" and "vanja", both derived from
name "Ivan".
Then there was also rarer names, for example "slobo", which I believe
is basicly a straight-minded transliteration from Russian word "slav".
The Russians used term "tsuhna" for Finns. I don't know of its
entymolgy for sure, but I'd guess it is an old Karelian word dating
back from the time when Finns, Tavastians and Karelians (*) spent
their time raiding each other (about 1000 years ago). I don't know if
"tsuhna" means anything special, but if it does, it is nothing good.
The Russian troops probably picked it up from local Karelians during
the war.
- Tommi
(*) For those that are interested: At about year 1000 Finnish people
was basicly divided in tree main tribes, Finns who lived in South West
part of modern Finland, Tavastians who lived in South Middle part of
Finland and Karelians who lived in East Finland and in parts of modern
Russia. Finns and Tavastians spoke same language, and Karelians had
their own but closely related language.
Rich Rostrom
> So what did the Germans call us?
German slang for Americans was 'Amis', I believe. Don't know what
it was for other nationalities.
Perhaps Heinz Altmann can tell us.
--
Rich Rostrom | "Ah, White Lightning, that splits the skull and
| encourages the body and the sentiments!"
R-Rostrom@ |
mcs.net | -- R. A. Lafferty, _The Reefs of Earth_
HCALTMANN
>> > Yank, Jerry for a German, etc. Did other countries have similar nicknames
>> > for their soldiers?
The Germans called their soldiers "Landser," a term not used for airmen or
sailors. Americans to me were "Ami." -- Heinz
HCAl...@aol.com (Heinz Altmann)
"I have no desire to win, only to get things right." A.J.P. Taylor
MakinKid
>Jerry was (for Britons) new in WW2.
This can't be true, because H.L. Menken's The American Language, which
discusses "jerry" as a derogatory word for German picked up by American troops
from British troops during World War One was published in 1919--twenty years
before the outbreak of World War Two.
Makin
Donald Phillipson
>
>>Jerry was (for Britons) new in WW2.
MakinKid (maki...@aol.comment) writes:
> This can't be true, because H.L. Menken's The American Language, which
> discusses "jerry" as a derogatory word for German picked up by American troops
> from British troops during World War One was published in 1919--twenty years
> before the outbreak of World War Two.
There may be a misreading here because Mencken does not say or
hint Jerry was derogatory. He lists it among nine
loan-words Americans adopted from Britons in WW1 (voicing surprise
there were not more.) Jerry is not recorded in British English
in 1918 with a tenth the frequency of Fritz or Hun.
ao...@lehigh.edu
'Mon ami' (my friend) since the term could be used in swearing
at the 'amis' dropping their bombs on the cities.
Alex
======================================================================
>HCALTMANN wrote in message <7cjf3c$qpa$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>...
Louis Capdeboscq
>have German ancestors and relatives, I've sometimes wondered if this was
not
>an unconscious reflection of that fact.
"Ami" is of course short for "Americans", depends on where the accent is.
The French would say "Ricains" because it sounds like "ameriCAINS". I very
much doubt that the average German citizen would use a French word for an
abbreviation, just to show hidden respect because lots of these people would
be of German descent.
Probe
from "In Many Parts: Memoirs of a Marine" by Lt.-Col. W.P. Drury, CBE, RM,
published by Unwin, London, 1926 but referring to it's author's pre-1900
exploits, "There are three Gentlemen Adventurers on whom, when the babblers
at Westminster have made the usual mess of things, the destiny of the
British Empire ultimately hang. They are Sailor Jack, Tommy the Soldier, and
their connecting link and very good comrade, Joe the Marine. The greatest of
these is Joseph, a fact of which, being a marine myself, I am naturally well
assured. As to how he acquired his Biblical tally is a point on which I can
speak with less certitude." Anyone have to hand any earlier references to
these sobriquets?
Aldrin wrote in message <7bs783$2epn$2...@quince.news.easynet.net>...
>Where did the nicknames come from? Tommy for a British soldier, GI for a
>Yank, Jerry for a German, etc. Did other countries have similar nicknames
>for their soldiers?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Aldrin.
Louis Capdeboscq
Well, some Englishmen I met a couple of weeks ago still said "The Hun" to
talk of the archetypal creature living in Germany. Basically, they were
trying to tell me that we would have WW2 all over again because "The Hun"
would try to dominate us.
Needless to say, I was amazed and not persuaded...
E.F.Schelby
>My impression is that 'Ami' came from 'Amerikaner' rather than
> 'Mon ami' (my friend) since the term could be used in swearing
>at the 'amis' dropping their bombs on the cities.
I think that is correct. "Ami" is simply an abbreviation of the
word Amerikaner, and as such not derogatory at all. It is still in
use today - for example in German-language newsgroups. Letters from
my family in Europe (Germany, Denmark, and Spain), for example,
sometimes start with "Dear Amis,"
ES
David Thornley
French, Spanish, or Portugese names for a certain people that
refer to themselves as "Deutsch", you get variants on "Germans"
or "Allemani", which seem to me to be references to the barbarians
the Romans fought. (The Italians say "tedesco" or some such, and I
have no idea where that came from.) Meanwhile, the Russian word for
German is a cognate of their word for barbarian.
I don't know of anybody else who gets that treatment. In English,
we generally refer to most other countries by a name recognizably
similar to what the natives do (the exception that comes to mind
is Finland).
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
df
Right: tedesco. Often wondered what it meant. I remember walked
through an Italian town with a knapsack and a beard, hitchhiking,
and hearing the old ladies saying to one another: "Tedesco.
Si--tedesco."
The Italians called matches "svenskas"--Swedes.
Thank for the memory - Dan Ford
Lech K. Lesiak
> American Army. Eisenhower (originally Eisenhauer), Spaatz, Nimitz, etc.
> The list is long. Virtually every American Unit in the ETO had a ready
> supply of German speakers.
Not just German speakers. My mother tells me that when the US Army
arrived in Zuhl in Bavaria, she encountered Polish speakers among the
troops. They spoke a strange sort of Polish, but could make themselves
understood.
Cheers,
Lech
E.F.Schelby
I approved it because I think it's useful as background information, but
please, no follow-ups -- mpw]
thor...@visi.com (David Thornley) wrote:
>E.F.Schelby <sch...@kitsune.swcp.com> wrote:
>>Dan Ford wrote:
>>Right: tedesco. Often wondered what it meant. I remember walked
>>through an Italian town with a knapsack and a beard, hitchhiking,
>>and hearing the old ladies saying to one another: "Tedesco.
>>Si--tedesco."
Did they take you for one?
>We're straying off topic here, but if you look at the British,
>French, Spanish, or Portugese names for a certain people that
>refer to themselves as "Deutsch", you get variants on "Germans"
>or "Allemani", which seem to me to be references to the barbarians
>the Romans fought.
My answer is a little off-topic too. Perhaps the moderators will let
it pass so that we can settle the questions.
Caesar called the people living in the forests of northern Gaul
'Germani.' Tacitus and other Roman historians also used the names
Teutoni and Allemanni. The latter were a large group of
west-Germanic tribes living in what is now Switzerland, Alsace,
Swabia, Baden, and the Tyrol. They are still there. Rommel, so to
speak, was an Allemanni.
Now to barbarians: the Greeks and Romans called all foreigners
barbarians - i.e. 'babblers', or men who spoke a language they did
not understand. (Some xenophobes do the same even today). The
meaning of uncivilized and uncultured was added later and gradually.
>(The Italians say "tedesco" or some such,
"Deutsch" - Old High German: diutisk. Latin: theodiscus. Dates back
to the time of Charlemagne. First documented in a letter from Mercia
in England about a church conference in 786. Resolutions were read
in both languages: "latine quam theodice." In 801 Charlemagne
addressed an assembly in Italy and used the words "theudisca lingua"
= the German language. It's nice that the Italians kept the name for
so long.
>Meanwhile, the Russian word for German is a cognate of their word
>for barbarian.
If it is an old custom I think it is pretty harmless. The Chinese
also called all foreigners barbarians. In case this lasted into the
19th century, it certainly included Americans ;-).
>I don't know of anybody else who gets that treatment.
>In English,>we generally refer to most other countries by a name recognizably
>similar to what the natives do
For Germany the English language is not close to the term the
natives use. The Germans call themselves Deutsche.
As to not knowing anybody else who gets that treatment: it wouldn't
be polite to give a listing of the unpleasant English names that
were given to the Chinese, Japanese, Italians, Jews, Irish, Blacks,
Indians, Mexicans, etc. etc. - by Americans.
Regards,
ES
MakinKid
>The Brits never quite got used to the frequency of German names in the
>American Army.
Nor, apparently, did the Germans.
Mets (1988) relates the following anecdote about USAAF Gen. Carl Spaatz
(originally Spatz, from Eberfeld, Prussia; Spaatz' grandmother was related to
the Krupp family. The Spaatz family published a German-language newspaper in
Boyertown, Pa):
The May 7, 1945 Rheims surrender did not satisfy the Soviets. They demanded a
second surrender ceremony in Berlin. The West complied, the senior American
sent to this second surrender being Carl Spaatz (Tedder was the British
representative, Zhukov the Soviet). Wilhelm Keitel led the German surrender
delegation. During the course of the long, tedious, often delayed procedings,
the Germans stayed in seclusion, while various members of the Soviet, British
and American delegations wandered about outside. At one point, Spaatz decided
to take a walk. As he passed below the balcony of the house lodging the German
delegation, Keitel and others emerged onto the balcony and stared down at
Spaatz. He looked up impassively and walked on, while Keitel continued to
stare down at him. No word or sign passed between them.
That was the only time Keitel emerged from seclusion except to sign the
surrender instrument. Apparently, when Spaatz walked by, however, he wanted to
get a good look at the "German" who had done so much to lay waste to his
emigrant grandparent's homeland.
One can only imagine the feelings the "native" Germans felt at encountering as
ruthless enemies the children and grandchildren of Germans who had left the
fatherland only a few short years before.
Makin
MakinKid
>Not just German speakers. My mother tells me that when the US Army
>arrived in Zuhl in Bavaria, she encountered Polish speakers among the
>troops.
About 584,000 Poles had emigrated to the USA by 1920. That compares with 1.3
million from Sweden, 3.4 million from Russia, 4.3 million from Hungary, 4.7
million from Ireland, 5.0 million from Britain, 5.3 million from Italy, and 7.0
million from Germany. Source USINS.
Makin
mike muth
> >The term "Huns" appears to have died out by WW2 except among the
While reading Holmes' _Acts of War_, I couldn't help but note that he
doesn't use the term Huns anywhere. He refers to Germans as Fritzes.
Now, he was part of the original BEF and not one of Kitchener's army.
Thus, he would have been exposed to less propaganda (which he
consistently derides).
It also seems that veterans of WWI (i.e. WSC) in many cases continued to
use the term Hun during WW II.
Mike
mike muth
Instead of _Acts of War_, I should have cited Lord Moran's _Anatomy of
Courage_.
Mike
casita
>get a good look at the "German" who had done so much to lay waste to his
>emigrant grandparent's homeland.
Gen Spaatz was cool headed and did his duty.
In the ETO and PTO.
http://www.af.mil/photos/Sep1997/spaatz.jpg
MakinKid
> My mother tells me that when the US Army
>> arrived in Zuhl in Bavaria, she encountered Polish speakers among the
>> troops. They spoke a strange sort of Polish, but could make themselves
>> understood.
>
>I understand the British had a similar surprise when the
>Americans arrived.
Cute. But the surprise, according to my parents (Brits both) was not so much
the various American dialects (the southerners sounded like they came out of a
Thomas Hardy novel; others sounded like Ulster Scots, New Yorkers sounded
like...well...). After all, they had been enjoying talking motion pictures
from the USA for years. The big surprise was the attitude of Americans,
calling everyone "Bub," for example, whatever their station in life. Chatting
equally with scullery maid and major general.
Not being of particularly high social station themselves, my parents rather
liked the straightforward approach to social situations, sizing each person up
as an individual no matter what his rank. They enjoyed the discomfort of high
mucky-mucks when buttonholed by one of these western barbarians and addressed
as "Fats."
Makin
Jerome A. Schroeder
Free-thinking, liberal minded Germans left the "old country" before the 1st
WW, leaving mostly a residue of goose-stepping, anal-retentive, authority
worshipers. Hence the Kaiser und Fuher could hold sway.
Jerry Schroeder (whose grandparents came from Prussia)
MakinKid wrote in message <7d85kb$7...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
>Lech K. Lesiak wrote:
>
>>Not just German speakers. My mother tells me that when the US Army
Jerome A. Schroeder
Jerry
ao...@lehigh.edu wrote in message <7cp6tm$2k...@ns5-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU>...
>My impression is that 'Ami' came from 'Amerikaner' rather than
> 'Mon ami' (my friend) since the term could be used in swearing
>at the 'amis' dropping their bombs on the cities.
> Alex
>======================================================================
>>HCALTMANN wrote in message <7cjf3c$qpa$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>...
>>>>> Aldrin wrote:
Jerome A. Schroeder
working (West Point) knowledge of the language.
Jerry
df wrote in message <36fc9639...@news.curie.dialix.com.au>...
>x-no-archive: yes
>Still, I would be surprised if Eisenhower, Nimitz, and Spaatz
>were German speakers. Multiculturalism was not strong in the U.S.
>in the first half of the century; those who got ahead tended to
>be those who left their origins behind. American Jews were
>perhaps an exception to this general rule.
Jerome A. Schroeder
MakinKid wrote in message <7d85js$7...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
>Jerome A. Schroeder wrote:
>>The Brits never quite got used to the frequency of German names in the
>>American Army.
>Nor, apparently, did the Germans.
>Mets (1988) relates the following anecdote about USAAF Gen. Carl Spaatz
>(originally Spatz, from Eberfeld, Prussia; Spaatz' grandmother was
>related to the Krupp family. The Spaatz family published a
>German-language newspaper in Boyertown, Pa):
Most of the Germans who left the old country before WWI were essentially
kicked out for being liberal freethinkers. They were not happy campers, and
found in the US a welcome refuge. Those memorys and storys remain alive and
well in countless German-American families. My Prussian Grandmother
absolutely loathed the "Old Country" and was solidly in support of US
participation in WW1 and 2.
Jerry
Marco Messina
>Right: tedesco. Often wondered what it meant.
Became from Medieval-Latin "Theodiscus" wich came from ancient German
"theod" = folk. It relates to the language.
>The Italians called matches "svenskas"--Swedes.
Yep. _Svedesi_
>Thank for the memory - Dan Ford
Best regards,
--
Marco Messina
For reply remove SPAMAGOTCHI from my e-mail address
MakinKid
>Most of the Germans who left the old country before WWI were essentially
>kicked out for being liberal freethinkers.
Interesting that Spaatz' grandfather, also named Carl, was issued a Prussian
passport good for one year (for himself, his wife and two children), granted
for the purpose of visiting relatives in America. Once Spatz (as the name was
then spelled) got ashore in America, he tossed away his Prussian passport and
never looked back. According to Mets (1988) Grandfather Spatz was "a maverick,
an 19th century liberal not much at home in a Germany then being driven toward
unification under the hand of Bismark." Spatz, a Lutheran, was educated at the
University of Berlin, was fluent in several languages (a skill he encouraged in
his children and grandchildren), had travelled widely in Europe, written for
various political newspapers, before deciding to find a way to get out of
Prussia and to America. Once in the USA, he founded a newspaper and became
active in politics. Spatz' father Charles became the editor of the paper and
served in the Pa. state assembly. Charles agitated for Cuban independence from
Spain and opposed German imperialist policies both politically and editorially.
Carl Spaatz worked on the newspaper for a time, which by then had been renamed
the Berks County Democrat (giving a sense of the Spaatz family's politics).
Carl gained an appointment to West Point through his father's friendship with
President Taft. Thus Spaatz became a member of the West Point Class of 1914,
called "the class the stars fell on," because a greater proportion of its
graduates became generals--and very many great generals-- than any other West
Point Class in history. Carl Spaatz was later called "the master of air
power," and was the key personage in the US strategic bombing campaign against
Germany. Prussia's loss was truly America's gain.
Makin
Bruce Dodds
> were German speakers. Multiculturalism was not strong in the U.S.
> in the first half of the century; those who got ahead tended to
> be those who left their origins behind.
Actually, there was lots of popular anti-German feeling in the US during WWI,
whipped up by propaganda. There was actual persecution in some places. Many
Americans of German descent, including my great-grandparents, anglicised
their names then.
Steve Chambers
>Where did the nicknames come from? Tommy for a British soldier, GI for a
>for their soldiers?
>From what I have heard the term Jerry arose from the similarity of the
German 'Coalscuttle' helmet with a chamberpot, from a time that long
pre-dated WW II the slang for a chamberpot was a Jerry, as an aside, my
great grandfather's nick-name in the 20's was Jerry - one look at my
surname might tell you why! Tommy came from Thomas Atkins, the name
used from an early period as an example on British Army forms where a
name was required to be filled in. The common usage possibly arose from
the use of the name in Kipling's poem Tommy, which I would love to
quote in full, as it somes up the British attitude to it's Army even
now, but I doubt if the moderators would allow it being Victorian in
origine. GI (now I'm walking on a thin edge) as far as I can tell
comes from General Issue, a term applied to common US kit.
Howard W Wortley
their soldiers) "les schloo" which is a term of abuse beyond measure. It
goes back way beyond WW1 apparently. The Germans are very well aware of the
phrase.
I have never seen this in print so the spelling is a guess and it is a taboo
word in public (though not in bars etc.) A recent French movie called
"Taxi!" had the French hero calling German's les schloos to their face and
it brought the house down so I guess ancient animosities are not entirely
healed. Thank god for NATO.
Howard
ps: if on holiday in Europe never experiment with this phrase, not even for
fun
Steve Chambers <stephen....@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:7dp2u7$9la$1...@barcode.tesco.net...
Georg Schwarz
> Most of the Germans who left the old country before WWI were essentially
> kicked out for being liberal freethinkers. They were not happy campers, and
could someone please provide hard numbers on that statement? There
definitely were people, some of them rather famous, e.g. after 1848, who
immigrated into the US for political reasons, but I'd assume that for
most German immigrants the motivation was economic. I'm sure there
exists research on this topic.
--
Georg Schwarz sch...@physik.tu-berlin.de, ku...@cs.tu-berlin.de
Institut für Theoretische Physik +49 30 314-24254, FAX -21130
Technische Universität Berlin http://home.pages.de/~schwarz/
Louis Capdeboscq
>their soldiers) "les schloo" which is a term of abuse beyond measure.
It is a term of abuse, but certainly not "beyond measure". It's more like
"Krauts" or even "Frogs": while generally unfriendly, some people will think
it the ultimate insult but lots of others won't.
>I have never seen this in print so the spelling is a guess
I think I've seen it in print, but don't remember how it was spelled. I
would personally spell it "Les Schleus" (pronounced "lay shluh").
>and it is a taboo word in public (though not in bars etc.)
It is not. To me, "Boche" is a much more offensive word, and one that I have
NEVER heard pronounced in public (I wasn't alive during WW2). This was
really a hate-filled term, and one that has become dated because of it. I
don't know any equivalent in English, because some Englishmen still say "The
Hun", and some Americans sometimes use "Kraut". The only people I heard
refering to the Germans as "Les Boches" would fall into two types: someone
who had lived through WWII and still hated the Germans, or an extreme-right
youngster who would find it fashionable (but some of those would also find
the Nazis fashionable so it's a rare case).
>A recent French movie called
>"Taxi!" had the French hero calling German's les schloos to their face
Well, that should show you that the word isn't that much taboo...
>and it brought the house down
Just how so ? The movie was a blockbuster in France, and certainly not
because of that. Now that you mention it, I remember the scene but frankly I
otherwise wouldn't have.
>ps: if on holiday in Europe never experiment with this phrase, not even for
>fun
Well, as a general rule it's usually a good idea not to experiment with
whatever offensive phrase you may have picked up. I suggest not using
"motherfuckers" in America either, even though the movie "Top Gun" made
extensive use of it, or "nigger bastard" even though the latest Tarentino
used it a lot, too. There are so many words I learned that I probably will
never be able to use... :)