Interchangeability of Small Arms Ammo
Mark Preston
was at all used interchangeably in the Pacific Theater?
I am asking on behalf of a WWII Naval Vet who has no I'net access.
--
Mark Preston
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bill Shatzer
On 29 Nov 1999, Mark Preston wrote:
> Can anyone tell me if American and Jap small arms (probably rifle) ammo
> was at all used interchangeably in the Pacific Theater?
No - neither the Japanese 6.5mm nor 7.7mm rifle ammunition was
interchangable with either the US .30-06 or .30 cal carbine round.
Cheers,
Jhe56
>> was at all used interchangeably in the Pacific Theater?
>
>No - neither the Japanese 6.5mm nor 7.7mm rifle ammunition was
>interchangable with either the US .30-06 or .30 cal carbine round.
IIRC, the 7.7 was interchangable with the British .303 Enfield.
tonywill...@my-deja.com
Mark Preston <emarkpre...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Can anyone tell me if American and Jap small arms (probably rifle)
ammo
> was at all used interchangeably in the Pacific Theater?
No. The standard Japanese rifle/MG ammunition came in two basic sizes;
6.5x50mm and 7.7x56mm (or 7.7x58mm; there were actually three different
7.7mm cartridges in service - 56mm Type 89 rimmed, 58mm Type 92
semi-rimmed and 58mm Type 99 rimless - the Japanese didn't seem to care
much about standardisation). US guns fired 7.62x63mm rounds.
Interestingly, the rimmed 7.7x56mm round was the same as the .303" in
British and Commonwealth service so was presumably interchangeable,
although I'm not aware of any reports that this was tried.
There were other cartridges in use, of course; the US M1 carbine used a
7.62x33 round and the .45" pistol and submachine guns used a 11.5x23mm
cartridge, whereas the Japanese pistol/SMG round was the 8x21mm Nambu.
The closest they came to interoperability was with heavy machine guns.
The Japanese Navy selected the 13.2mm Hotchkiss (Type 93) for light AA
use, which fired a cartridge almost identical to the .50" Browning (it
was just a Browning case with a fractionally wider bullet; you can't
tell them apart unless you put them side-by side and look carefully).
Later in the war the Japanese Navy air force actually adopted a copy of
the Browning aircraft gun (13mm Type 3), slightly modified to take the
Hotchkiss cartridge. This was fitted to some late-model A6M (Zeroes).
Tony Williams
Osmo Ronkanen
In general there was little interchangeability in small arms ammo among
major combatants, evemn on those on same side. The most most obcious
case was the 9mm Parabellum round with was used by Germans and British
as well as us. Here we used same rifle caliber as Soviets though even
there was some problems. The Soviet Semi-automatic rifles did not work
well on the Finnish ammo which was slow and heavy instead of fast and
light. I think many East Europena countries used the German round which
was good for germans who could capture the weapons.
Well is interchangeability good? Among allies it of course is and
therefore post WWII NATO and Warsaw Pact standardized their ammo.
same ammo between enemies is another matter. It benefits the side
that has smaller industrial capacity but is a disadvantage to the one
that has more production as the enemy has more use of captured weapons
and ammo.
During the war we had several types of small arms ammo. The most
dominant was the 7.62x54R but then there were Swedish 6.5x55 and Italian
7.35mm rounds for secondary units like Navy and Air force. The German
7.92x57 round was used on Browning D LMGs that were bought from Belgium
in 1940. French Chauchats used 8mm round. On Pistol rounds there was
even more confusion. There was some 8-10 different cartridges in use.
Some even had sale caliber so there must have been confusion. Then
there was specific SMG ammo that should not have been used on pistols.
(Well it was)
Osmo
Mike Healy
Mark Preston wrote in message <81vit5$h...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
>Can anyone tell me if American and Jap small arms (probably rifle) ammo
>was at all used interchangeably in the Pacific Theater?
>I am asking on behalf of a WWII Naval Vet who has no I'net access.
Well, I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure that standard Japanese rifles were
6.5mm (.256"), which was significantly smaller than US standard 7.62mm
(.30") ammo. I'd have to say that they weren't interchangeable. Anyone else?
Bueller?
Mike
Nightjar
news:384c8b5e...@news.usenetserver.com...
> ...
> Interestingly, the rimmed 7.7x56mm round was the same as the .303" in
> British and Commonwealth service so was presumably interchangeable,
> although I'm not aware of any reports that this was tried.
Britain was closely involved with modernising the Japanese Navy before
WW1. Their warships of the time were essentially British warships built
in Japan. It is, therefore, quite likely that the .303 round was also
adopted from Britain.
Colin Bignell
Bill Shatzer
jh...@aol.com (Jhe56) wrote:
> >> Can anyone tell me if American and Jap small arms (probably rifle) ammo
> >> was at all used interchangeably in the Pacific Theater?
> >No - neither the Japanese 6.5mm nor 7.7mm rifle ammunition was
> >interchangable with either the US .30-06 or .30 cal carbine round.
> IIRC, the 7.7 was interchangable with the British .303 Enfield.
The 7.7mm -bullet- is the same diameter as the .303 Enfield -bullet-.
But the -cartridges- were not interchangeable and the cartridges
intended for one weapon could not be used in the other. They were of
different dimensions and the 7.7mm model 99 cartridge was rimless as
opposed to the rimmed .303 cartridge.
Were one reloading 7.7mm ammunition, .303 bullets could be be used. But
a .303 cartridge could not be successfully chambered and fired in a
Japanese 7.7mm rifle nor vice versa.
Cheers,
- Bill Shatzer - bsha...@orednet.org-
"Being weak minded is not necessarily a detriment"
-Jesse Ventura
The Finn
the .45 ACP as a service caliber. Could someone illuminate
me on the subject?
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
(Mark Preston) wrote:
> f American and Jap small arms
The short answer is no. None of the Japanese ammo would have fitted
American weapons. It is possible that captured weapons were used but
the only example I have heard of is the Japanese knee mortar the type
89.
Ken Young
ken...@cix.co.uk
Maternity is a matter of fact
Paternity is a matter of opinion
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
> IIRC, the 7.7 was interchangable with the British .303 Enfield.
Same diameter but not interchangeable.
.303 rimmed bottle nosed case, brass 2.211 in long, complete round
3.05 in.
7.7 rimlesss bottle nosed case 2.27 in long, complete round 3.14 in
tonywill...@my-deja.com
Yes, it was. Speaking from memory I believe that it was acquired along
with the Vickers machine gun which saw some use in naval aircraft; army
weapons used the longer semi-rimmed and rimless cartridges.
Japan also adopted via Italy (where it was used in the Breda-SAFAT and
Scotti aircraft guns) the semi-rimmed export version of the .5" Vickers
cartridge (12.7x81; smaller than the 12.7x99 Browning) for the army's
Ho-103 aircraft gun (which was a scaled-down Browning) and the 40mm
2-pounder naval AA, although that was not in first-line service by the
start of the war.
Other copied automatic weapons included the naval 13mm Type 2
(Rheinmetall-Borsig MG 131 aircraft gun, only with percussion instead of
electric ignition), various 7.9mm aircraft guns of German origin,
Oerlikon 20mm FF and FFL aircraft guns (navy) and the French Hotchkiss
25mm AA gun (navy).
They did design some interesting weapons of their own, as well - all
with different ammunition, of course. At least six different 20mm
cartridges were used, as well as five 6.5-7.9mm machine gun rounds and
three 12.7-13mm heavy machine gun cartridges. Great fun for the
collector.
Nicholas Smid
Jhe56 wrote in message <19991201085303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>>> Can anyone tell me if American and Jap small arms (probably rifle) ammo
>>> was at all used interchangeably in the Pacific Theater?
>>
>>No - neither the Japanese 6.5mm nor 7.7mm rifle ammunition was
>>interchangable with either the US .30-06 or .30 cal carbine round.
>
which were not all that interchangable. Who'd be a QM
in the Impereal army!
I have herd they were copying the M-1 rifle at the end of
the war though it may have been in 7.7mm rimless.
Lee Russell
>
>I have herd they were copying the M-1 rifle at the end of
>the war though it may have been in 7.7mm rimless.
Yes, the Japanese Navy Type 5. It differed from the M1 in having a box
magazine what took two five-round clips (rather than the eight-round
"enbloc" clip of the Garand, and in being of 7.7 caliber (rimless). Only
prototypes of this weapon were produced.
Cub driver
>> Britain was closely involved with modernising the Japanese Navy before
>> WW1. Their warships of the time were essentially British warships built
>> in Japan. It is, therefore, quite likely that the .303 round was also
>> adopted from Britain.
>
>Yes, it was. Speaking from memory I believe that it was acquired along
>with the Vickers machine gun which saw some use in naval aircraft; army
>weapons used the longer semi-rimmed and rimless cartridges.
Following WWI, the Japanese navy bought British warplanes and hired
British trainers and advisers, while the Japanese army did the same
with respect to French a/c and personnel. As a result, during WWII,
Japanese army and navy a/c used weapons whose cartridges weren't
interchangeable even when nominally of the same caliber, nor did their
radios communicate on the same frequency. But the most astonishing
result of this outward turning (and failure to talk crosswise between
the services) was that Japanese navy pilots advanced the throttle by
pushing it away from them, toward the firewall, like Anglo-American
pilots; while Japanese army pilots pulled it aft, like the French.
all the best - Dan
see Nothing New About Death at http://www.danford.net
and the Annals of Military Aviation forum at http://www.delphi.com/annals
(send private emails to danford at alumni dot unh dot edu)
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
jj58679...@uta.fi.invalid (The Finn) wrote:
> the .45 ACP as a service caliber.
Yes the Browning M 1911A and the Thompson machine gun were both used
in small numbers by second line troops. These came from Norway (autos)
and were captured in France from the British (smg)
Lee Russell
for the LEWIS aircraft machinegun, I think, not the Vickers. When they put
the cartridge into production they called it "7.7" rimmed.
JCDrews
ammo, but that MGs could NOT, with the exception that SOME Brens could use the
Japanese-made stuff and others would just jam. No interchangability between
Vickers and Hotchkiss. Anyone know of this?