Prussians Betrayed
Edward French
Volgograd-Stalingrad. During the program I hear letters from the Germans
before their capitulation. Several were from Prussian officers who realized
the betrayal by "cowards, incompotent leaders, and criminals" and upon their
return to Germany they'd "sweep all (nazis) away". Sadly, that didn't
happen.
I'd never known this. Could it be that the proud militaristic Prussians
remained aloof (and ignorant) from the Nazi political machine, so that they
*actually* felt betrayed so far into war?
--hug the day
inter...@aol.com
"Edward French" <kha...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>
> I'd never known this. Could it be that the proud militaristic
Prussians
> remained aloof (and ignorant) from the Nazi political machine, so
that they
> *actually* felt betrayed so far into war?
>
Oh for sure. The proud aristocratic Prussians who were Nazis composed
the early cadre of the SS. The other Junkers held themselves aloof
from politics and really had nothing in common with Nazis. They were
identical to the British aristocracy in culture, outlook, taste, moral
values, the only difference was that the military tradition followed
'spartan' lines, i.e. less financially well off. The tradition of the
Prussian aristocracy was that the oldest son inherited the land and
farm (gut) and family fortune, the second son received a professional
education (lawyer,doctor, etc), and the third son on went to a military
academy where austerity, spartan principles were raised to a level of
religion. They became 'monks' of duty to the fatherland, sort of
speak, and it was only a matter of time before they understood the
Nazis to be Germanys worst enemies. Many saw the light during the
war. My own father saw the light during a German offensive where HJ
children were used as the first wave to 'bolster' morale among the
regulars. It was then that he reallized that 'they want to kill us
all'. If Hitler had been in the field after 1942, I think it likely he
would have died of friendly fire.
Germans were then and are now politically diverse. All elections are
close calls, and the view points of the parties typically differ
radically.
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Yevgeniy Chizhikov
Edward French wrote:
> Following a German newscast about efforts to erect a German memorial at
> Volgograd-Stalingrad. During the program I hear letters from the Germans
> before their capitulation. Several were from Prussian officers who realized
> the betrayal by "cowards, incompotent leaders, and criminals" and upon their
> return to Germany they'd "sweep all (nazis) away". Sadly, that didn't
> happen.
> I'd never known this. Could it be that the proud militaristic Prussians
> remained aloof (and ignorant) from the Nazi political machine, so that they
> *actually* felt betrayed so far into war?
Problem is that those officers where minority. As documents show, officers
and solders joint Nazi party in greater and greater numbers as the war
progress. As for proud Prussians, they were nothing more than memory. Even
at the start of the war, majority of the German officers were not of
aristocratic descendants. Most of the officers where in fact from working
class backgrounds and in fact majority where attracted to the Army by the
Hitler and Nazis. After couple years of war on Eastern Front, German
officers sustain about 300% casualties, and overwhelming majority where of
1935 on generation. Fact is that it is impossible to separate Nazi party
and Wermacht. Nazi party build Wermacht and it dominated it from top to
bottom. "Where were not Nazis, but simple solders" is excuse created after
the war. Bashing of Nazi leadership is probably more to do with a fact
that those solders faced sure death, than previously believes of those
officers.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Alex W.-Ribeiro
Yevgeniy Chizhikov schrieb:
<Snip>
> Problem is that those officers where minority. As documents show, officers
> and solders joint Nazi party in greater and greater numbers as the war
> progress.
Still the percentage is much below other groups in society. And the
increase among "old" soldiers is negligible. That makes IMO perfectly
sense, as the soldiers had to bear the probably heavieast burden in war
and werde confronted on a daily basis with it. Moreover, the "fresh"
soldier supply came mostly from ex-HJ kids and other youths which had
early been indoctrinated by the Nazi ideology. And after 1943 anyone
from the military services entering the party must either have been an
unscrupulous careerist or a fanatic. As "soldiers" IMHO does not include
the majority of the SS, I find your statement quite ambiguous.
> As for proud Prussians, they were nothing more than memory. Even
> at the start of the war, majority of the German officers were not of
> aristocratic descendants. Most of the officers where in fact from working
> class backgrounds
Not likely. According to the biographical data, the major part was still
from the "bourgois" or higher classes. The SS here is again an
exemption, as it offered easier careers for officers descendant from the
"working classes". And the core of the Wehrmacht, which came from the
old Reichswehr was nothing but a "proletarian army".
> and in fact majority where attracted to the Army by the
> Hitler and Nazis. After couple years of war on Eastern Front, German
> officers sustain about 300% casualties, and overwhelming majority where of
> 1935 on generation. Fact is that it is impossible to separate Nazi party
> and Wermacht.
"Wehrmacht" is a term which is somewhat older than the rule of the
NSDAP. So your assumption doesn't make sense. Or does in your opinion a
"label" have that much influence on the labeled subject/object? And BTW
- the term "Wehrmacht" was used by high party officials such as Goebbels
himself frequently as we'd use today's "armed forces". It was not
reserved exclusively for the germans.
> Nazi party build Wermacht and it dominated it from top to
> bottom. "Where were not Nazis, but simple solders" is excuse created after
> the war. Bashing of Nazi leadership is probably more to do with a fact
> that those solders faced sure death, than previously believes of those
> officers.
I wonder how Stauffenberg for example would've seen that. I mean he was
back in Berlin with a quite comfortable, not too risky job. Same applies
to Beck and several other from the "men of the 20thJuly". According to
your logic, the army corps on the eastern fronts should've rebelled?
Well, though the soviet forces and secret services tried to make this
happen, they reached just very minor effects. IMHO the soldiers "at the
front" didn't have that much perception of the "political part". Even
high ranking officers as von Manstein probably didn't oversee the whole
"arena". Understandably as he had enough other things to take care of.
Regards, Alex.
--
"All right! I want you all to bear witness to this! As of NOW, I'm using
my authorithy to declare MARTIAL LAW!" - "WHAT? You can't do that! No
one in the Space Legion has ever..." - "I've DONE it, and it stands
until someone overrules it. Someone with more available firepower than I
have!" (R.Asprin, Phule's Paradise)
Glenn A. Steinberg
> Edward French wrote:
>
> > Could it be that the proud militaristic Prussians
> > remained aloof (and ignorant) from the Nazi political machine, so that they
> > *actually* felt betrayed so far into war?
>
> Problem is that those officers where minority. As documents show, officers and
> solders joint Nazi party in greater and greater numbers as the war progress.
What documents? In fact, it was *illegal* for officers and soldiers in the German
Army to join *any* political party before 20 July 1944. So, absolutely *no*
officers or soldiers were members of the Nazi party until very late in the war.
Many officers and soldiers sympathized with the Nazis (especially over issues such
as the Versailles Treaty and rearmament), but they were not Nazis. After the
failure of the 20 July 1944 coup attempt, Hitler and his party took a stranglehold
on the Army (requiring, for example, that the Nazi salute replace the traditional
military one).
> As for proud Prussians, they were nothing more than memory.
Oh? What about the von Moltke family? the Yorck von Wartenburg family? the von
Kleist family? the von Dohna-Schlobitten family? the von Lueninck family? and the
many other proud Prussian aristocratic families who opposed Hitler and his immoral
regime (in or out of the military)? Most of them died heroically after the
failure of the 20 July 1944 coup attempt.
> Even at the start of the war, majority of the German officers were not of
> aristocratic descendants. Most of the officers where in fact from working class
> backgrounds and in fact majority where attracted to the Army by the Hitler and
> Nazis. After couple years of war on Eastern Front, German officers sustain about
> 300% casualties, and overwhelming majority where of 1935 on generation.
Officers at the lower levels of command were indeed more from these later
generations and lower social classes -- and were also more sympathetic to Nazism
than their superiors. In addition, through his control of the Army Personnel
Office (headed by his flunkies Schmundt and Burgdorf), Hitler largely chose which
officers got promoted once the war began. But your next statement doesn't seem to
hold water:
> Fact is that it is impossible to separate Nazi party and Wermacht. Nazi party
> build Wermacht and it dominated it from top to bottom.
Actually, Colonel-General von Fritsch built the Army (until his dismissal by
Hitler in 1938). And Fritsch was *never* a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer. If Hitler
dominated the German Army from top to bottom, why did hundreds of officers join in
conspiracies to assassinate Hitler and overthrow the Nazi Party in 1938, in the
winter of 1939-1940, in March 1943, and again in July 1944?
> "Where were not Nazis, but simple solders" is excuse created after the war.
> Bashing of Nazi leadership is probably more to do with a fact that those solders
> faced sure death, than previously believes of those officers.
The Army General Staff as an institution was acquitted on nearly all counts at
Nuremberg. Was it even found guilty of a single count in the indictment against
it (other than prosecuting aggressive war)? Individual officers may have been
found guilty of particular crimes that they committed (especially in terms of the
treatment of prisoners of war and alleged partisans), but the German Army as a
whole was found to have been pretty free of blame in the crimes of the Nazi
regime.
So, how did the Army General Staff convince the Nuremberg tribunal that it was
innocent? With lies and Nazi bashing? Wouldn't the Nuremberg tribunal have seen
through such lies and Nazi bashing (given that it possessed all that documentation
and testimony)? The judges at Nuremberg certainly weren't convinced by the Nazi
Party leaders' claims not to know about the extermination of the Jews. Were the
Army officers just better liars than the likes of Goering, Rosenberg, and
Ribbentrop? I doubt it very much.
inter...@aol.com
Yevgeniy Chizhikov <y.chi...@sims.csuohio.edu> wrote:
> Problem is that those officers where minority. As documents show,
officers
> and solders joint Nazi party in greater and greater numbers as the war
> progress. As for proud Prussians, they were nothing more than memory.
> at the start of the war, majority of the German officers were not of
> aristocratic descendants. Most of the officers where in fact from
working
> class backgrounds and in fact majority where attracted to the Army by
Sorry, just not so. It is true that under Hitler and the Nazis
competence in officers was preferred over family ties, and more
officers from the middle class were promoted but the Wehrmacht was
still an aristocrats playpen. Look at the names of the 24 generals
captured at Stalingrad and pick out the 'von' = aristocrat. Now the
others without a 'von' or title like 'graf' were not from working class
backgrounds. To be an officer at entry to war you needed an abitur.
To get an abitur they were in the 15-20 % of their age group. These
were predominently children of professionals and administrators. It
was a minority that obtained an abitur and were working class, ie.
arbeiter.
I would not be surprised if the upper-tier officers of the Reichswehr
were predominently aristocrat. That is mainly because most had WWI
experience, and of those the vast majority were aristocrats.
Later on during the war battlefield commissions became common, so
called 'schmalspuroffizier', and many professionals received
commissions commensurate with their civilian standing irregardless of
family name, but it is safe to say that the professional officers in
1939 with more than 10 years experience were aristocrats, thus the
leadership of the Wehrmacht at entry to war was decidedly of
aristocratic background. At entry to WWi it was almost exclusively an
aristocrats officers club.
E.F.Schelby
>> I'd never known this. Could it be that the proud militaristic Prussians
>> remained aloof (and ignorant) from the Nazi political machine, so that they
>> *actually* felt betrayed so far into war?
The Prussians had a military tradition, which is not necessarily the
same thing as being militaristic. Tradition includes restraint. Just
ask John Salt about his beloved Royal Navy.
>As for proud Prussians, they were nothing more than memory.
Not quite, but WW II did its utmost to finish the job. The Allies
loved to hate proud Prussians for different reasons. Western
statesmen decided that Prussia had to be eliminated, and it was.
This is odd, since Nazis and Prussians were two entirely different
social species.
At war's end, some old families committed suicide rather than submit
to what was in store for them when the Red Army overran their areas.
(This may have been based partly on class hatred: aristocrats and
communism don't go well together). Others fled or were cleansed,
losing their home, centuries-old estates, and possessions in the
process. I don't know how many lost their lives. Anyway, despite all
this proud Prussians did not disappear from the face of the earth.
Christian von Krockow's account, based on his sister's (Libussa,
Baroness Oldershausen) oral narrative, has been published in
English. It shows pep, vinegar, and grace under pressure. It has a
dose of humor, black or otherwise:
Christian von Krockow. _Hour of the Women: A Young
Mother's Flight to Survive at the Close of World War II_.
New York: Burlingame/Harper Collins, 1991.
Why were these people singled out? It is an interesting question.
Many of them lived simply and close to the land. They did the work
of well-off farmers. Why were Polish officers, the elite, and the
intelligencia eliminated at Katyn? I guess one aims for what one
thinks is the head. This behavior wasn't confined to one side.
Regards,
ES
P.S. The East-Prussian Trakehner horse is the oldest German
Warmblood, and it too participated in the exodus at war's end. About
800 of these noble four-legged Prussians made it through the ordeal.
They are prized for their good temperaments, excellent gaits,
stamina, willingness, and versatility, all qualities they share with
the Prussians who cared for them :-). In 1945, many Trakehners had
to be left behind. They were deported to Russia. Alas, what goes
around comes around: after hardships, misuse, and adventures there
is now a Russian lover of fine horses who brought a few of the
survivors back and started a stud farm in their old homeland of
East Prussia.. Good for him, and for them.
News Admin
>Problem is that those officers where minority. As documents show, officers
>and solders joint Nazi party in greater and greater numbers as the war
>progress.
Yev, if I may be so bold, how accurate do you hold these "documents" to be?
I don't believe my local newspaper half the time.
As for proud Prussians, they were nothing more than memory.
Here, I think it's a BIG mistake to discount the power of "myth". Every
human is swayed by myths. The House of Bismark inspires me and I've never
been to Father Europe. In Germania, I'd bet big money that "Prussia" gave
any German who wanted it Great Comfort.
Even
>at the start of the war, majority of the German officers were not of
>aristocratic descendants. Most of the officers where in fact from working
>class backgrounds and in fact majority where attracted to the Army by the
>Hitler and Nazis.
I can see why..until that night of long knives. Then I(we?) would have known
Hitler was a rank murderer-can't be trusted....But still I'd want bloody
revenge for WW1 and Versailles. How can one justify reducing the most dynamic country
(@1910) into maelstrom of misery for a war they maybe shared but 50% liability for?!
Where's the honor here?
>After couple years of war on Eastern Front, German
>officers sustain about 300%-whatta ya mean? casualties, and overwhelming
>majority where of 1935 on generation. Fact is that it is impossible to separate Nazi party
>and Wermacht. Nazi party build Wermacht and it dominated it from top to
>bottom. "Where were not Nazis, but simple solders" is excuse created after
>the war.
Untrue, I believe, for reasons stated above. Germany had a right to take
back land. Of course the mass murder eviscersated that moral righteousness.
Once a society is miltarized anyone can be terminated. The common man then
as today has limited options. So you better believe in your leader! If
he/she is criminal then choose martydm or flee. I would have pushed Goring
down some stairs after Stalingrad! Bismark woulda.
>Bashing of Nazi leadership is probably more to do with a fact
>that those solders faced sure death, than previously believes of those
>officers.
Christ, from what I know these Nazi officers were psychos AND incompetant!
Definitly terminate them just don't get caught. Yevgeniy, do you feel sorrow that
someone didn't kill Stalin?
--hug the day
Mark Van Alstine
Steinberg" <gste...@tcnj.edu> wrote:
> Yevgeniy Chizhikov wrote:
>
> > Edward French wrote:
> >
> > > Could it be that the proud militaristic Prussians
> > > remained aloof (and ignorant) from the Nazi political machine,
> > > so that they *actually* felt betrayed so far into war?
> >
> > Problem is that those officers where minority. As documents show,
> > officers and solders joint Nazi party in greater and greater numbers
> > as the war progress.
>
> What documents? In fact, it was *illegal* for officers and soldiers in
> the German Army to join *any* political party before 20 July 1944.
> So, absolutely *no* officers or soldiers were members of the Nazi party
> until very late in the war.
According to Cooper:
<begin quote>
....According to paragraph 26 of the Defence Law, no soldier was allowed
undertake political activity, and this included being a member of the
National Socialist Party or of its affiliated arganisations. The only
exceptions to this fundemental rule were minor ones: civilian members of
the Armed Forces were allowed to hold Party office under certain
conditions; participating in National Socialist welfare organizations was
considered desireable; leading Party Members could wear military uniform
at Party functions during service, although they could not make speeches;
and although conscripts had to allow their membership to lapse, they could
continue to pay their Party dues while in service....
<end quote>
Source: Cooper, _The German Army_, pp.37-38.
Not that this meant that the NSDAP didn't have influence over a soldier
and his family. Again, according to Cooper:
<begin quote>
In 1936, political instruction became more organised. On 30 January, von
Blomberg ordered the intoduction of a special course of indoctrination in
all Officer Training Schools, Staff Colleges, and the Armed Forces
Academy, and provided for the establishment of training courses, held in
Berlin by Party propagandists, for all officers who were to become
instructors. Special local courses were instituted for all other officers
not at the various academies. In 1937 the Paty organanised courses similar
to those in Berlin to be held each Wehrkreis. Once-weekly instruction was
now given by officers to all NCOs and men. Simultaneously with direct
political education, the Reich Ministry for Propaganda and Public
Enlightenment was authorised to disseminate 'educational' literature
throughout the Armed Forces; reading rooms were provided for the troops,
largely stocked with propaganda; units were given funds with which to
purchase the Party newspaper _Völkischer Beobachter_; and books and
pamphlets produced by the Ministry were made available free, or at very
low prices. Restrictions were even placed on the newspapers allowed to be
taken.
More disturbingly, however, had been von Blomberg's order of 26 May 1936,
which directed that soldiers considered politically unreliable should be
reported to the Gestapo. This was further extended, on 25 January 1938, by
an order which required that especially difficult men be handed over tot
he Gestapo for the remainder of their period of service.
[...]
Even in the serviceman's home life National Socialism intruded. In a
decree of 6 September 1936 von Blomberg extolled the virtues of the
Party's Block and Cell administration, a system whereby each and every
family in the Reich came under the charge of a Party official who had the
duties of propagating National Socialism, recruiting for the multitudinous
Party organisations, investigating complaints or unreliable attitudes, and
handling any general issue the Party might care to give him. Von Bloberg
declared he had no objection if the Party took on such an administration
of soldier's families, although he specified that one area of a soldier's
life which must be left free from inquiry or influence was his official
military duty.
By such means the German soldier, after 1935, became subject to National
Socialist ideology wherever he might turn: his barracks werenamed after
heroes of the NSDAP; Party officials were invited to all social functions;
he reading was supervised; his political attitudes were, in theory at
least, controlled, watched, and if necessary, reported to the Gestapo; his
ancestry could be the subject of close scrutiny; his choice of wife was
inhibited; and even his family home was not proof against the influences
of political officialdom.
<end quote>
Source: Cooper, _The German Army_, pp.34-36.
Mark
--
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and
evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between
political parties--but right through every human heart--and all
human hearts." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
Glenn A. Steinberg
> As for proud Prussians, they were nothing more than memory.
Perhaps we should read two books by a respected and authoritative historian:
Baranowski, Shelley. The Confessing Church, Conservative Elites, and the Nazi
State. Lewiston: Edwin Mellen Press, 1986.
óóó. The Sanctity of Rural Life: Nobility, Protestantism, and Nazism in Weimar
Prussia. New York: Oxford UP, 1995.
Baranowski's work is very even-handed and detailed.