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Hogan's Heroes
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Rhino
Nov 26, 2011, 12:48:15 PM11/26/11
to
I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there is
any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
One of my friends has the first several seasons of the show on DVD and I've
been enjoying rewatching it for the first time in many years.
I know that the show is almost entirely fanciful and very far from the
reality of life in a German POW camp. Certainly one of the most preposterous
aspects of the show was the frequent depiction of a robust and numerous
German resistance movement. In reality, there was very little in the way of
a resistance movement amongst Germans: I'm only aware of the White Rose
group, which was very small and not very effective. The ease with which
Hogan and his crew slipped in and out of Stalag 13 and the sheer foolishness
of Col. Klink and Sgt. Schultz were also highly implausible.
Still, were there any real-life precedents for any of the key elements of
the show, such as a POW camp where detainees actually participated in
activities against the enemy, even if it was situated in some other country?
For instance, did French POWs in France or Russian POWs in German camps ever
strike back against their captors? Did any POWs anywhere have direct radio
contact with their home militaries?
I'm just curious to know whether the entire show was completely invented or
whether at least a few bits of it were based on somethng real, even if
somewhat distorted?
One more remark on the show's casting. I was surprised to learn that all the
key German roles in the show - Klink, Schultz, and Burkhalter - were played
by authentic German or Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer,
was German-born. Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by
Leon Askin, were born in Austria. All three of them were Jewish too, which I
thought was delightfully ironic. (Apparently, Klemperer was initially
uninterested in the role but finally consented when the producers agreed to
write the scripts so that the Germans would never win.) Robert Clary, who
played the French POW Lebeau, is also Jewish and his family actually
suffered severely at the hands of the Nazis. Howard Caine, who played Major
Hochstetter the Gestapo agent (and some other German characters in the first
season), was American but was born Howard Cohen which suggests he was Jewish
too.
any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
One of my friends has the first several seasons of the show on DVD and I've
been enjoying rewatching it for the first time in many years.
I know that the show is almost entirely fanciful and very far from the
reality of life in a German POW camp. Certainly one of the most preposterous
aspects of the show was the frequent depiction of a robust and numerous
German resistance movement. In reality, there was very little in the way of
a resistance movement amongst Germans: I'm only aware of the White Rose
group, which was very small and not very effective. The ease with which
Hogan and his crew slipped in and out of Stalag 13 and the sheer foolishness
of Col. Klink and Sgt. Schultz were also highly implausible.
Still, were there any real-life precedents for any of the key elements of
the show, such as a POW camp where detainees actually participated in
activities against the enemy, even if it was situated in some other country?
For instance, did French POWs in France or Russian POWs in German camps ever
strike back against their captors? Did any POWs anywhere have direct radio
contact with their home militaries?
I'm just curious to know whether the entire show was completely invented or
whether at least a few bits of it were based on somethng real, even if
somewhat distorted?
One more remark on the show's casting. I was surprised to learn that all the
key German roles in the show - Klink, Schultz, and Burkhalter - were played
by authentic German or Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer,
was German-born. Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by
Leon Askin, were born in Austria. All three of them were Jewish too, which I
thought was delightfully ironic. (Apparently, Klemperer was initially
uninterested in the role but finally consented when the producers agreed to
write the scripts so that the Germans would never win.) Robert Clary, who
played the French POW Lebeau, is also Jewish and his family actually
suffered severely at the hands of the Nazis. Howard Caine, who played Major
Hochstetter the Gestapo agent (and some other German characters in the first
season), was American but was born Howard Cohen which suggests he was Jewish
too.
Rich Rostrom
Nov 26, 2011, 4:18:30 PM11/26/11
to
On Nov 26, 11:48 am, "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
wrote:
> ... there was very little in the way of
underground in Germany was small. This was in part due to
mistaken tactics adopted in the 1920s and 1930s at Soviet
insistence, which left German Communists exposed and
vulnerable to the Gestapo. However, the survivors hung in
and performed valuable espionage for the USSR, becoming
known as the "Rote Kapelle" (Red Orchestra). However, the
Gestapo penetrated the Red Orchestra, and most were
captured in 1942-1943, before there were many U.S. PoWs.
There was also a much larger "Resistance" movement based
mainly on elements of the German army which disliked Nazi
rule, and on pre-Third-Reich conservatives, known as the
"Schwarze Kapelle" (Black Orchestra). It was this group that
attempted the assassination and coup d'etat of 20 July 1944.
It should be noted that after the 20 July failure, thousands of
people were arrested by the Gestapo for complicity.
However, the US and Britain rejected any cooperation with the
Black Orchestra, regarding them as merely a faction of German
militarists trying to cut a deal and retain power. Thus it would
be extremely improbable for Hogan's group to have any contact
with them. Also, the Black Orchestra's goal was to overthrow
the Nazis, not to assist Germany's military defeat by sabotage
or military spying, which was Hogan's mission. (In 1940, the Black
Orchestra leaked warnings of the attacks on Norway and France
to the Allies, in hopes that German defeats would discredit the
Nazis and lead to their overthrow; but many of them also served
loyally in the Wehrmacht.)
OTOH - by 1944-45, the US and Britain had many operatives in
Germany, which was swarming with exiles and refugees from
many countries. I'd think that Allied intelligence managed to recruit
at least some of these people as agents, and possibly some
native Germans as well. But I've never seen any documentation
of such.
wrote:
> ... there was very little in the way of
> a resistance movement amongst Germans: I'm only aware of the White Rose
> group, which was very small and not very effective.
There was a lot more than the White Rose. The Communist
> group, which was very small and not very effective.
underground in Germany was small. This was in part due to
mistaken tactics adopted in the 1920s and 1930s at Soviet
insistence, which left German Communists exposed and
vulnerable to the Gestapo. However, the survivors hung in
and performed valuable espionage for the USSR, becoming
known as the "Rote Kapelle" (Red Orchestra). However, the
Gestapo penetrated the Red Orchestra, and most were
captured in 1942-1943, before there were many U.S. PoWs.
There was also a much larger "Resistance" movement based
mainly on elements of the German army which disliked Nazi
rule, and on pre-Third-Reich conservatives, known as the
"Schwarze Kapelle" (Black Orchestra). It was this group that
attempted the assassination and coup d'etat of 20 July 1944.
It should be noted that after the 20 July failure, thousands of
people were arrested by the Gestapo for complicity.
However, the US and Britain rejected any cooperation with the
Black Orchestra, regarding them as merely a faction of German
militarists trying to cut a deal and retain power. Thus it would
be extremely improbable for Hogan's group to have any contact
with them. Also, the Black Orchestra's goal was to overthrow
the Nazis, not to assist Germany's military defeat by sabotage
or military spying, which was Hogan's mission. (In 1940, the Black
Orchestra leaked warnings of the attacks on Norway and France
to the Allies, in hopes that German defeats would discredit the
Nazis and lead to their overthrow; but many of them also served
loyally in the Wehrmacht.)
OTOH - by 1944-45, the US and Britain had many operatives in
Germany, which was swarming with exiles and refugees from
many countries. I'd think that Allied intelligence managed to recruit
at least some of these people as agents, and possibly some
native Germans as well. But I've never seen any documentation
of such.
Don Phillipson
Nov 26, 2011, 6:07:52 PM11/26/11
to
"Rhino" <no.offline.c...@example.com> wrote in message
news:jar26h$828$1...@news.datemas.de...
> Still, were there any real-life precedents for any of the key elements of
> the show, such as a POW camp where detainees actually participated in
> activities against the enemy, even if it was situated in some other
> country? For instance, did French POWs in France or Russian POWs in German
> camps ever strike back against their captors? Did any POWs anywhere have
> direct radio contact with their home militaries?
No and no, as suggested by British narratives (by Eric Williams, Paul
Brickhill.)
PoW camp literature is almost exclusively a British (not American) genre.
It describes escape planning and organization (supported from Britain
by MI9;) e.g. PoWs could build their own radio receivers but not
transmitters (and had no frequency on which to call.)
> . . . I was surprised to learn that all the key German roles in the
of some affinity between actors' ancestry and those of their roles
or characters. We do not require that an actor for Macbeth be
Scottish, or a soldier, or even married. Today's association of American
Italian actors with Italian gangster roles is a novelty in US show business
(not expected when the gangster genre was created by E.G. Robinson,
Paul Muni, etc.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:jar26h$828$1...@news.datemas.de...
> Still, were there any real-life precedents for any of the key elements of
> the show, such as a POW camp where detainees actually participated in
> activities against the enemy, even if it was situated in some other
> country? For instance, did French POWs in France or Russian POWs in German
> camps ever strike back against their captors? Did any POWs anywhere have
> direct radio contact with their home militaries?
Brickhill.)
PoW camp literature is almost exclusively a British (not American) genre.
It describes escape planning and organization (supported from Britain
by MI9;) e.g. PoWs could build their own radio receivers but not
transmitters (and had no frequency on which to call.)
> . . . I was surprised to learn that all the key German roles in the
> show - Klink, Schultz, and Burkhalter - were played by authentic German or
> Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer, was German-born.
> Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by Leon Askin, were
> born in Austria. All three of them were Jewish too, which I thought was
> delightfully ironic. (Apparently, Klemperer was initially uninterested in
> the role but finally consented when the producers agreed to write the
> scripts so that the Germans would never win.) Robert Clary, who played the
> French POW Lebeau, is also Jewish and his family actually suffered
> severely at the hands of the Nazis. Howard Caine, who played Major
> Hochstetter the Gestapo agent (and some other German characters in the
> first season), was American but was born Howard Cohen which suggests he
> was Jewish
When discussing actors, it was a characteristically Nazi expectation
> Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer, was German-born.
> Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by Leon Askin, were
> born in Austria. All three of them were Jewish too, which I thought was
> delightfully ironic. (Apparently, Klemperer was initially uninterested in
> the role but finally consented when the producers agreed to write the
> scripts so that the Germans would never win.) Robert Clary, who played the
> French POW Lebeau, is also Jewish and his family actually suffered
> severely at the hands of the Nazis. Howard Caine, who played Major
> Hochstetter the Gestapo agent (and some other German characters in the
> first season), was American but was born Howard Cohen which suggests he
> was Jewish
of some affinity between actors' ancestry and those of their roles
or characters. We do not require that an actor for Macbeth be
Scottish, or a soldier, or even married. Today's association of American
Italian actors with Italian gangster roles is a novelty in US show business
(not expected when the gangster genre was created by E.G. Robinson,
Paul Muni, etc.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
The Horny Goat
Nov 26, 2011, 6:10:53 PM11/26/11
to
On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:48:15 -0500, "Rhino"
<no.offline.c...@example.com> wrote:
>One more remark on the show's casting. I was surprised to learn that all the
>key German roles in the show - Klink, Schultz, and Burkhalter - were played
>by authentic German or Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer,
>was German-born. Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by
>Leon Askin, were born in Austria. All three of them were Jewish too, which I
>thought was delightfully ironic. (Apparently, Klemperer was initially
>uninterested in the role but finally consented when the producers agreed to
>write the scripts so that the Germans would never win.) Robert Clary, who
>played the French POW Lebeau, is also Jewish and his family actually
>suffered severely at the hands of the Nazis. Howard Caine, who played Major
>Hochstetter the Gestapo agent (and some other German characters in the first
>season), was American but was born Howard Cohen which suggests he was Jewish
>too.
Well that was the whole point in the show - pretty much any of the
<no.offline.c...@example.com> wrote:
>One more remark on the show's casting. I was surprised to learn that all the
>key German roles in the show - Klink, Schultz, and Burkhalter - were played
>by authentic German or Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer,
>was German-born. Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by
>Leon Askin, were born in Austria. All three of them were Jewish too, which I
>thought was delightfully ironic. (Apparently, Klemperer was initially
>uninterested in the role but finally consented when the producers agreed to
>write the scripts so that the Germans would never win.) Robert Clary, who
>played the French POW Lebeau, is also Jewish and his family actually
>suffered severely at the hands of the Nazis. Howard Caine, who played Major
>Hochstetter the Gestapo agent (and some other German characters in the first
>season), was American but was born Howard Cohen which suggests he was Jewish
>too.
non-American characters had solid anti-Nazi roots.
Apparently after the show ended Klemperer did a symphony concert where
he appeared as Col. Klink and shocked the crowd by doing a
professional level violin performance. Which should have been a shock
to no one given who his father was but apparently a lot of people were
surprised.
Shawn Wilson
Nov 26, 2011, 6:48:49 PM11/26/11
to
On Nov 26, 10:48 am, "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
wrote:
> I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there is
> any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
Well...
Kinda.
The series itself is a heavily transmogrified Stalag 17/The Great
Escape/et al, which were based on reality.
Real aspects-
POW life was not Concentration Camp life. It was tolerable and
survivable, provided you were neither Russian nor Jewish.
Goering's 'knights of the air' philosophy meant captured aircrews were
reasonably well treated, for POWs.
Sgt Schultz is a reasonably accurate portrayal of a type- fat,
useless, harmless/well intentioned, drafted, doesn't want to be there,
gets too close to his charges. He was not a typical camp guard, but
he wasn't impossible.
Col Klink is also of a type. Old school Prussian cavalry, past his
prime and trying to relive his (fleeting) glory days while avoiding
genuine frontline military service (which no superior in his right
mind would assign him to). A decent man trying to do his best with
few resources (personal and external) to do it with. Unlikely but not
impossible, especially so long as his camp at least appears to be
running properly. Chief paper shuffler is more likely than POW camp
commandant, but not a serious suspension of disbelief.
Running essentially a special operations cell out of a POW camp? Hell
no. They don't have any resources to do it with. Doing it with
random captured aircrew? They don't have the right skills. BUT, The
Great Escape was a TRUE story, and it involved the same factors. And,
when you get down to it, what could they do? In The Great Escape what
they did was escape, and cause security problems and a diversion of
resources. If you aren't going to do that then...
Cooperating with the German resistance? WHAT German resistance? (OK,
there was some, but none in contact with the western allies)
The camp seems to be too small to be realistic. POWs are deliberately
underfed (not usually starved) to deprive them of the energy to cause
mischief. They were too well fed in HH.
So, basically Hogan's Heroes could never happen, but the pieces the
story is composed of could.
> One of my friends has the first several seasons of the show on DVD and I've
> been enjoying rewatching it for the first time in many years.
I have recently been imagining a movie remake, focusing, I think, on
Col Klink. I see him as a weak, but well meaning man caught in a
world he can't affect with rumors surrounding him of unimaginable
horrors he refuses to believe. I see well liked Jewish neighbors in
the 30s. He goes away for some assignment, comes back and they are
just gone, nothing he could do, and no word of their fate. He tries
to convince himself that nothing too bad has happened to them, but it
undermones his impotence and the truth he doesn't want to see.
So he creates a little bubble of old school Germany from his younger
days as a calvary officer on the Eastern front (a career I see as
being cut short quickly via some injury recieved in his first battle)
as he envisioned it where he can pretend to control things and keep
the rest of the world out. The movie focusing on the end of the war,
where Klink sees what has happened to germany, and the true horrors,
and getting chaged with war crimes, to be finally defended by Hogan,
et al. He is a weak and ineffectual man, but a decent one.
It would never work, too dark for a comedy, but that's what I see.
> I know that the show is almost entirely fanciful and very far from the
> reality of life in a German POW camp. Certainly one of the most preposterous
> aspects of the show was the frequent depiction of a robust and numerous
> German resistance movement. In reality, there was very little in the way of
> a resistance movement amongst Germans: I'm only aware of the White Rose
> group, which was very small and not very effective. The ease with which
> Hogan and his crew slipped in and out of Stalag 13 and the sheer foolishness
> of Col. Klink and Sgt. Schultz were also highly implausible.
Once you have a tunnel the rest is easy.
> One more remark on the show's casting. I was surprised to learn that all the
> key German roles in the show - Klink, Schultz, and Burkhalter - were played
> by authentic German or Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer,
> was German-born. Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by
> Leon Askin, were born in Austria. All three of them were Jewish too, which I
> thought was delightfully ironic. (Apparently, Klemperer was initially
> uninterested in the role but finally consented when the producers agreed to
> write the scripts so that the Germans would never win.) Robert Clary, who
> played the French POW Lebeau, is also Jewish and his family actually
> suffered severely at the hands of the Nazis. Howard Caine, who played Major
> Hochstetter the Gestapo agent (and some other German characters in the first
> season), was American but was born Howard Cohen which suggests he was Jewish
> too.
If I recall correctly at least one, and maybe more than one, member of
the cast had to cover up unfortunate tattoos given them by the Nazis
in Poland...
wrote:
> I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there is
> any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
Kinda.
The series itself is a heavily transmogrified Stalag 17/The Great
Escape/et al, which were based on reality.
Real aspects-
POW life was not Concentration Camp life. It was tolerable and
survivable, provided you were neither Russian nor Jewish.
Goering's 'knights of the air' philosophy meant captured aircrews were
reasonably well treated, for POWs.
Sgt Schultz is a reasonably accurate portrayal of a type- fat,
useless, harmless/well intentioned, drafted, doesn't want to be there,
gets too close to his charges. He was not a typical camp guard, but
he wasn't impossible.
Col Klink is also of a type. Old school Prussian cavalry, past his
prime and trying to relive his (fleeting) glory days while avoiding
genuine frontline military service (which no superior in his right
mind would assign him to). A decent man trying to do his best with
few resources (personal and external) to do it with. Unlikely but not
impossible, especially so long as his camp at least appears to be
running properly. Chief paper shuffler is more likely than POW camp
commandant, but not a serious suspension of disbelief.
Running essentially a special operations cell out of a POW camp? Hell
no. They don't have any resources to do it with. Doing it with
random captured aircrew? They don't have the right skills. BUT, The
Great Escape was a TRUE story, and it involved the same factors. And,
when you get down to it, what could they do? In The Great Escape what
they did was escape, and cause security problems and a diversion of
resources. If you aren't going to do that then...
Cooperating with the German resistance? WHAT German resistance? (OK,
there was some, but none in contact with the western allies)
The camp seems to be too small to be realistic. POWs are deliberately
underfed (not usually starved) to deprive them of the energy to cause
mischief. They were too well fed in HH.
So, basically Hogan's Heroes could never happen, but the pieces the
story is composed of could.
> One of my friends has the first several seasons of the show on DVD and I've
> been enjoying rewatching it for the first time in many years.
Col Klink. I see him as a weak, but well meaning man caught in a
world he can't affect with rumors surrounding him of unimaginable
horrors he refuses to believe. I see well liked Jewish neighbors in
the 30s. He goes away for some assignment, comes back and they are
just gone, nothing he could do, and no word of their fate. He tries
to convince himself that nothing too bad has happened to them, but it
undermones his impotence and the truth he doesn't want to see.
So he creates a little bubble of old school Germany from his younger
days as a calvary officer on the Eastern front (a career I see as
being cut short quickly via some injury recieved in his first battle)
as he envisioned it where he can pretend to control things and keep
the rest of the world out. The movie focusing on the end of the war,
where Klink sees what has happened to germany, and the true horrors,
and getting chaged with war crimes, to be finally defended by Hogan,
et al. He is a weak and ineffectual man, but a decent one.
It would never work, too dark for a comedy, but that's what I see.
> I know that the show is almost entirely fanciful and very far from the
> reality of life in a German POW camp. Certainly one of the most preposterous
> aspects of the show was the frequent depiction of a robust and numerous
> German resistance movement. In reality, there was very little in the way of
> a resistance movement amongst Germans: I'm only aware of the White Rose
> group, which was very small and not very effective. The ease with which
> Hogan and his crew slipped in and out of Stalag 13 and the sheer foolishness
> of Col. Klink and Sgt. Schultz were also highly implausible.
> One more remark on the show's casting. I was surprised to learn that all the
> key German roles in the show - Klink, Schultz, and Burkhalter - were played
> by authentic German or Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer,
> was German-born. Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by
> Leon Askin, were born in Austria. All three of them were Jewish too, which I
> thought was delightfully ironic. (Apparently, Klemperer was initially
> uninterested in the role but finally consented when the producers agreed to
> write the scripts so that the Germans would never win.) Robert Clary, who
> played the French POW Lebeau, is also Jewish and his family actually
> suffered severely at the hands of the Nazis. Howard Caine, who played Major
> Hochstetter the Gestapo agent (and some other German characters in the first
> season), was American but was born Howard Cohen which suggests he was Jewish
> too.
the cast had to cover up unfortunate tattoos given them by the Nazis
in Poland...
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Nov 27, 2011, 3:49:59 PM11/27/11
to
In article
<798a4cf0-8717-40b3...@v8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
You got to use the tunnel once in most of the recorded cases.
Ken Young
<798a4cf0-8717-40b3...@v8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
You got to use the tunnel once in most of the recorded cases.
Ken Young
Padraigh ProAmerica
Nov 27, 2011, 4:54:06 PM11/27/11
to
1) Robert Clary (LeBeau) was a concentration camp survivor with a number
tattoo.
2)IIRC, the original premise was that the crew was sent in together to
set up the operations. Carter (Larry Hovis), the explosives expert, was
a commissioned officer acting as a sergeant.
The one major thing that caught my eye was radio operator Kinch- the
U.S. forces were strictly segregated by race, and, AFAIK, there were no
African-American bomber crew in the European theatre (There was an AA
fight group- the Tuskeegee Airmen- in Italy, and they compiled an
outstanding record.).
--
"History is not a spectator sport"-- Dr. Bruce Freeberg--
tattoo.
2)IIRC, the original premise was that the crew was sent in together to
set up the operations. Carter (Larry Hovis), the explosives expert, was
a commissioned officer acting as a sergeant.
The one major thing that caught my eye was radio operator Kinch- the
U.S. forces were strictly segregated by race, and, AFAIK, there were no
African-American bomber crew in the European theatre (There was an AA
fight group- the Tuskeegee Airmen- in Italy, and they compiled an
outstanding record.).
--
"History is not a spectator sport"-- Dr. Bruce Freeberg--
GFH
Nov 27, 2011, 4:54:22 PM11/27/11
to
On Nov 26, 12:48 pm, "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
wrote:
quite a
"literature" about PoWs of the Germans. Consider Stalag 17. And
consider
that the death rate of US PoWs in German hands was 0.7%, better than
the
death rate of German PoWs in US hands. Unless you are Ambrose and
round both to 1%. Then they are the same.
GFH
wrote:
> I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there is
> any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
Yes. There are no comedies about PoWs of the Japanese. There is
> any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
quite a
"literature" about PoWs of the Germans. Consider Stalag 17. And
consider
that the death rate of US PoWs in German hands was 0.7%, better than
the
death rate of German PoWs in US hands. Unless you are Ambrose and
round both to 1%. Then they are the same.
GFH
David Wilma
Nov 27, 2011, 8:16:09 PM11/27/11
to
On Nov 27, 1:54 pm, ogro...@webtv.net (Padraigh ProAmerica) wrote:
>
> The one major thing that caught my eye was radio operator Kinch- the
> U.S. forces were strictly segregated by race, and, AFAIK, there were no
> African-American bomber crew in the European theatre (There was an AA
> fight group- the Tuskeegee Airmen- in Italy, and they compiled an
> outstanding record.).
Kinch wore a field jacket and a "jeep" cap implying that he was ground
>
> The one major thing that caught my eye was radio operator Kinch- the
> U.S. forces were strictly segregated by race, and, AFAIK, there were no
> African-American bomber crew in the European theatre (There was an AA
> fight group- the Tuskeegee Airmen- in Italy, and they compiled an
> outstanding record.).
forces. Perhaps the ten minutes the technical adviser was on set
resulted in this detail.
Padraigh ProAmerica
Nov 27, 2011, 9:19:10 PM11/27/11
to
The more I lok back on the show the more silliniess pops up.
here we have a group consisting of a USAAF officer; two Ameican
sergeants (0ne possibly a round soldier, the other an officer
masquerading as a sargeant); a RAF corporal, a Frenchman (resistance
fighter? Didn't wear a uniform)...how many impossibilities can you spot
here?
here we have a group consisting of a USAAF officer; two Ameican
sergeants (0ne possibly a round soldier, the other an officer
masquerading as a sargeant); a RAF corporal, a Frenchman (resistance
fighter? Didn't wear a uniform)...how many impossibilities can you spot
here?
Alan Nordin
Nov 27, 2011, 11:57:01 PM11/27/11
to
On Nov 27, 9:19 pm, ogro...@webtv.net (Padraigh ProAmerica) wrote:
> The more I lok back on the show the more silliniess pops up.
>
> here we have a group consisting of a USAAF officer; two Ameican
> sergeants (0ne possibly a round soldier, the other an officer
> masquerading as a sargeant); a RAF corporal, a Frenchman (resistance
> fighter? Didn't wear a uniform)...how many impossibilities can you spot
> here?
Yes, I wondered about this too. Weren't prisoners segregated by
> The more I lok back on the show the more silliniess pops up.
>
> here we have a group consisting of a USAAF officer; two Ameican
> sergeants (0ne possibly a round soldier, the other an officer
> masquerading as a sargeant); a RAF corporal, a Frenchman (resistance
> fighter? Didn't wear a uniform)...how many impossibilities can you spot
> here?
nation of origin?
I always thought that of the best known Hollywood attempts at
depicting POW life at the hands of Nazi Germany, Stalag 17 was the
most realistic.
Alan
Rich Rostrom
Nov 28, 2011, 1:31:38 AM11/28/11
to
Don Phillipson wrote:
> PoW camp literature is almost exclusively a British (not American) genre.
I will mention here a movie which may have been
> PoW camp literature is almost exclusively a British (not American) genre.
an influence on the creators of HH.
It was the British movie _Coming-Out Party_ (or
_Very Important Person_ ), from 1961.
It was set in a PoW camp, and played for laughs.
One subplot involved two PoWs ( 'Bonzo' Baines
and 'Grassy' Green) who want to audition for the
upcoming camp show as "Vauxhall comedians".
Woodcock, the Entertainments Officer, turns this
down, has them show their legs, and announces
they will "join the ladies of the chorus", i.e. appear
in drag.
The main story concerns an escape plot. Sir Ernest
Pease is an important scientist who was accidentally
lost over Germany, now disguised as an RN lieutenant.
He must be got out before the Nazis catch on to who
he is.
Pease rejects digging tunnels and climbing fences as
beneath his dignity. Instead he arranges to capture the
Swiss (Red Cross?) commissioners who come to inspect
the camp, and leave disguised as them.
As I said above, this movie was played for laughs. While
it is a relatively obscure British movie, its light-hearted
treatment of PoW conditions does seem like a precursor
to HH.
GFH
Nov 28, 2011, 9:59:16 AM11/28/11
to
On Nov 27, 11:57 pm, Alan Nordin <alan_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I always thought that of the best known Hollywood attempts at
> depicting POW life at the hands of Nazi Germany, Stalag 17 was the
> most realistic.
You can get an idea of PoW life in Zemke's Stalag. Hubert Zemke was
> I always thought that of the best known Hollywood attempts at
> depicting POW life at the hands of Nazi Germany, Stalag 17 was the
> most realistic.
there. His book covers not only the Stalag itself, but his
"processing"
by the Germans.
GFH
Geoffrey Sinclair
Nov 28, 2011, 10:03:53 AM11/28/11
to
"GFH" <geo...@ankerstein.org> wrote in message
news:e9b4ba44-e12e-4a45...@u5g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> And consider that the death rate of US PoWs in German hands was
> 0.7%, better than the death rate of German PoWs in US hands.
Actually the reality is different, for example the British PoWs held by the
Germans had a 3.5% death rate, the Germans in British hands had a
0.03% death rate, in American hands 0.15%.
Note of course even young people die from natural causes and in
wartime others die from injuries received in the fighting before capture
and they can be caught up in war operations after capture. The longer
you hold prisoners the more they will die.
>From Richard Anderson,
-----
"Army Battle Casualties and Nonbattle Deaths in World War II, Final
Report, 7 December 1941 - 31 December 1946," Department of the
Army, Office of the Adjutant General, are as follows:
Total number of US Army (including USAAF) personnel captured/KIA while
POW (by air bombardment or while trying to escape)/died of wounds or
injuries while POW (wounds suffered in action or while POW)/died of
other causes (nonbattle)/returned to military control were:
ETO 73,759 / 224 / 194 / 532 / 72,809
MTO 20,182 / 64 / 63 / 44 / 20,011
------
For a 98.8% survival rate, or 1.2% death rate. Rather different to the
figures supplied by George.
Post war of course the US ended up with several million German
prisoners, around 1% died while in US custody, most in the first
few months before facilities improved and many were released.
> Unless you are Ambrose and
> round both to 1%. Then they are the same.
Ambrose a lead player in the conference that showed the US treatment
of German prisoners post WWII was nowhere near as bad as George
keeps trying to believe. Hence the last sentence.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
news:e9b4ba44-e12e-4a45...@u5g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 26, 12:48 pm, "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
> wrote:
>> I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there
>> is
>> any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's
>> Heroes?
>
> Yes. There are no comedies about PoWs of the Japanese. There is
> quite a "literature" about PoWs of the Germans. Consider Stalag 17.
And the rest.
> wrote:
>> I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there
>> is
>> any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's
>> Heroes?
>
> Yes. There are no comedies about PoWs of the Japanese. There is
> quite a "literature" about PoWs of the Germans. Consider Stalag 17.
> And consider that the death rate of US PoWs in German hands was
> 0.7%, better than the death rate of German PoWs in US hands.
Germans had a 3.5% death rate, the Germans in British hands had a
0.03% death rate, in American hands 0.15%.
Note of course even young people die from natural causes and in
wartime others die from injuries received in the fighting before capture
and they can be caught up in war operations after capture. The longer
you hold prisoners the more they will die.
>From Richard Anderson,
-----
"Army Battle Casualties and Nonbattle Deaths in World War II, Final
Report, 7 December 1941 - 31 December 1946," Department of the
Army, Office of the Adjutant General, are as follows:
Total number of US Army (including USAAF) personnel captured/KIA while
POW (by air bombardment or while trying to escape)/died of wounds or
injuries while POW (wounds suffered in action or while POW)/died of
other causes (nonbattle)/returned to military control were:
ETO 73,759 / 224 / 194 / 532 / 72,809
MTO 20,182 / 64 / 63 / 44 / 20,011
------
For a 98.8% survival rate, or 1.2% death rate. Rather different to the
figures supplied by George.
Post war of course the US ended up with several million German
prisoners, around 1% died while in US custody, most in the first
few months before facilities improved and many were released.
> Unless you are Ambrose and
> round both to 1%. Then they are the same.
of German prisoners post WWII was nowhere near as bad as George
keeps trying to believe. Hence the last sentence.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
William Black
Nov 28, 2011, 10:05:17 AM11/28/11
to
On 28/11/11 04:57, Alan Nordin wrote:
> On Nov 27, 9:19 pm, ogro...@webtv.net (Padraigh ProAmerica) wrote:
>> The more I lok back on the show the more silliniess pops up.
>>
>> here we have a group consisting of a USAAF officer; two Ameican
>> sergeants (0ne possibly a round soldier, the other an officer
>> masquerading as a sargeant); a RAF corporal, a Frenchman (resistance
>> fighter? Didn't wear a uniform)...how many impossibilities can you spot
>> here?
>
> Yes, I wondered about this too. Weren't prisoners segregated by
> nation of origin?
And also by rank.
> On Nov 27, 9:19 pm, ogro...@webtv.net (Padraigh ProAmerica) wrote:
>> The more I lok back on the show the more silliniess pops up.
>>
>> here we have a group consisting of a USAAF officer; two Ameican
>> sergeants (0ne possibly a round soldier, the other an officer
>> masquerading as a sargeant); a RAF corporal, a Frenchman (resistance
>> fighter? Didn't wear a uniform)...how many impossibilities can you spot
>> here?
>
> Yes, I wondered about this too. Weren't prisoners segregated by
> nation of origin?
Officers were segregated from 'other ranks' and OR's were expected to
work on non war related work.
--
William Black
Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...
William Black
Nov 28, 2011, 11:18:17 AM11/28/11
to
On 27/11/11 21:54, GFH wrote:
> On Nov 26, 12:48 pm, "Rhino"<no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
> wrote:
>> I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there is
>> any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
>
> Yes. There are no comedies about PoWs of the Japanese.
I don't know, 'Tenko' was laughable...
> On Nov 26, 12:48 pm, "Rhino"<no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
> wrote:
>> I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there is
>> any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
>
> Yes. There are no comedies about PoWs of the Japanese.
Don Phillipson
Nov 28, 2011, 11:21:58 AM11/28/11
to
>> PoW camp literature is almost exclusively a British (not American) genre.
"Rich Rostrom" <rrostrom.2...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:a581a91e-6c9e-423c...@w15g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> It was the British movie _Coming-Out Party_ (or
> _Very Important Person_ ), from 1961.
>
> It was set in a PoW camp, and played for laughs.
> One subplot involved two PoWs ( 'Bonzo' Baines
> and 'Grassy' Green) who want to audition for the
> upcoming camp show as "Vauxhall comedians".
> Woodcock, the Entertainments Officer, turns this
> down, has them show their legs, and announces
> they will "join the ladies of the chorus", i.e. appear
> in drag.
1. In both world wars, the USA deployed combat forces
in Europe only years after the wars began: so there were
many more British than American PoWs in enemy hands
and for much longer. As a direct consequence, British
military authorities developed policies and procedures
to protect PoWs and help escapers before US troops
reached combat zones: and when US soldiers and airmen
joined British prisoners in PoW camps they benefitted from
these institutions, which US Army authorities did not bother
trying to duplicate.
2. American and British military culture differ from each
other in some details. Most obviously "camp concerts"
(amateur cabarets by soldiers) with "drag acts" (men
dressed as women) were a much more familiar feature
of British army life than American. (I have never been
sure whether the drag acts in the musical South Pacific
really happened during the US Navy campaign or had
been borrowed from the British tradition by the Broadway
producers.)
3. Another detail is that the British military tradition had
before 1914 an "escaping culture" and a formal policy
concerning PoWs in enemy hands. (It was the duty of
officers to attempt escape. Other ranks were encouraged
to escape but it was not their duty to do so.) The US Army
had no such culture for historical rreasons (e.g. had no
institutional memory of PoW camps and escape attempts
in the Napoleonic wars etc.) When caged with British
PoWs they tended to adopt British methods, but all-
American PoW camps (which were few) had no access
to either the British tradition or its X organizations.
Later in the Korean War more captured Americans died in
PoW camps than did British PoWs, and it was suggested
their different military traditions explained this. After
capture, Americans tended to tell themselves army rules
no longer applied, and behaved like independent civilians,
while British PoWs maintained military discipline, obedience
to rank, etc., deemed later to improve survival rates.
Don Phillipson
Nov 28, 2011, 11:26:40 AM11/28/11
to
"Shawn Wilson" <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:798a4cf0-8717-40b3...@v8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> Once you have a tunnel the rest is easy.
This seems dramatic licence for the TV show. In real life,
more than 90 per cent of escaping PoWs were recaptured.
E.g. more than 70 men escaped from Stalag Luft III in early
1944 but only three reached neutral countries and Britain.
news:798a4cf0-8717-40b3...@v8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> Once you have a tunnel the rest is easy.
more than 90 per cent of escaping PoWs were recaptured.
E.g. more than 70 men escaped from Stalag Luft III in early
1944 but only three reached neutral countries and Britain.
Alan Nordin
Nov 28, 2011, 12:28:06 PM11/28/11
to
On Nov 28, 10:05 am, William Black <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And also by rank.
I thought HH got this right, one officer sort of in charge of a camp
full of enlisted.
Alan
> And also by rank.
I thought HH got this right, one officer sort of in charge of a camp
full of enlisted.
Alan
MCGARRY
Nov 28, 2011, 12:48:10 PM11/28/11
to
>
> Still, were there any real-life precedents for any of the key elements
> of the show, such as a POW camp where detainees actually participated in
> activities against the enemy, even if it was situated in some other
> country? For instance, did French POWs in France or Russian POWs in
> German camps ever strike back against their captors? Did any POWs
> anywhere have direct radio contact with their home militaries?
>
> I'm just curious to know whether the entire show was completely invented
> or whether at least a few bits of it were based on somethng real, even
> if somewhat distorted?
>
A tv series taht was based on reality was Colditz. It was a castle
> Still, were there any real-life precedents for any of the key elements
> of the show, such as a POW camp where detainees actually participated in
> activities against the enemy, even if it was situated in some other
> country? For instance, did French POWs in France or Russian POWs in
> German camps ever strike back against their captors? Did any POWs
> anywhere have direct radio contact with their home militaries?
>
> I'm just curious to know whether the entire show was completely invented
> or whether at least a few bits of it were based on somethng real, even
> if somewhat distorted?
>
prison for officers who nearly all thought it was their duty to escape.
After a british tunnel collapsed on a French tunnel they had a comitee
to organise plans. There were about 300 plans, 30 escapes, of which I
think 3 succeeded. Airy Neave was one who succeeded.
One plan was to build a glider in the attic. The end of the roof would
be taken off to allow the glider to fly over the walls. Luckily the war
ended before they were ready.
--
Audio Tour Guide d day Normandy. Self Guiding.
http://normandy-tour-guide.cpmac.com.audio-guide.php3
Driver guide Normandy
GFH
Nov 28, 2011, 4:13:23 PM11/28/11
to
> > Yes, I wondered about this too. Weren't prisoners segregated by
> > nation of origin?
>
> And also by rank.
It depended on which nation one is considering. In the USA PoWs
> > nation of origin?
>
> And also by rank.
from u-boats were kept together as crews, including officers. The
advantage was the already established lines of discipline.
Germans segregated by service, nationality, and then rank.
Yes, British PoWs fared worse than American PoWs in German
hands. Soviet PoWs were caged and left to starve, which they
did by the millions.
GFH
GFH
Nov 28, 2011, 4:37:44 PM11/28/11
to
On Nov 28, 10:03 am, "Geoffrey Sinclair" <gsinclai...@froggy.com.au>
wrote:
> Ambrose a lead player in the conference that showed the US treatment
> of German prisoners post WWII was nowhere near as bad as George
> keeps trying to believe. Hence the last sentence.
OTHO, I got my numbers from Bischof & Ambrose, "Eisenhower and
the German POWs".
GFH
wrote:
> Ambrose a lead player in the conference that showed the US treatment
> of German prisoners post WWII was nowhere near as bad as George
> keeps trying to believe. Hence the last sentence.
the German POWs".
GFH
William Black
Nov 28, 2011, 5:13:03 PM11/28/11
to
On 28/11/11 21:13, GFH wrote:
> Yes, British PoWs fared worse than American PoWs in German
> hands.
Cite please.
> Yes, British PoWs fared worse than American PoWs in German
> hands.
Shawn Wilson
Nov 28, 2011, 5:28:33 PM11/28/11
to
official liason, but they wouldn't take one officer to supervise a
camp of enlited.
As I was taught in basic training in the US about 20 years ago,
prisoners are to be seperated into six different groups- officers,
NCOs, enlisted and kept seperate from each other. Civilian prisoners
would be divided in civili authorties (politicans, police, etc), men,
and women/children.
Alan Nordin
Nov 28, 2011, 6:06:22 PM11/28/11
to
On Nov 28, 5:28 pm, Shawn Wilson <ikonoql...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No. The senior POW by rank will be 'in charge' of them and the
> official liason, but they wouldn't take one officer to supervise a
> camp of enlited.
>
> As I was taught in basic training in the US about 20 years ago,
> prisoners are to be seperated into six different groups- officers,
> NCOs, enlisted and kept seperate from each other. Civilian prisoners
> would be divided in civili authorties (politicans, police, etc), men,
> and women/children.
I believe you're speaking of how the US Army would do it. I'm talking
> No. The senior POW by rank will be 'in charge' of them and the
> official liason, but they wouldn't take one officer to supervise a
> camp of enlited.
>
> As I was taught in basic training in the US about 20 years ago,
> prisoners are to be seperated into six different groups- officers,
> NCOs, enlisted and kept seperate from each other. Civilian prisoners
> would be divided in civili authorties (politicans, police, etc), men,
> and women/children.
about how {in this case} the German airforce did it, Stalag 13 was a
Luftstalag.
Alan
Mario
Nov 28, 2011, 6:26:42 PM11/28/11
to
Don Phillipson, 17:26, lunedì 28 novembre 2011:
> "Shawn Wilson" <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
news:798a4cf0-8717-40b3...@v8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Once you have a tunnel the rest is easy.
>
> This seems dramatic licence for the TV show. In real life,
> more than 90 per cent of escaping PoWs were recaptured.
> E.g. more than 70 men escaped from Stalag Luft III in early
> 1944 but only three reached neutral countries and Britain.
>
I remember British serial "Colditz", with *real* German actors.
--
H
> "Shawn Wilson" <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
news:798a4cf0-8717-40b3...@v8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Once you have a tunnel the rest is easy.
>
> This seems dramatic licence for the TV show. In real life,
> more than 90 per cent of escaping PoWs were recaptured.
> E.g. more than 70 men escaped from Stalag Luft III in early
> 1944 but only three reached neutral countries and Britain.
>
--
H
Mario
Nov 28, 2011, 6:28:23 PM11/28/11
to
GFH, 22:13, lunedě 28 novembre 2011:
> On Nov 28, 10:05 am, William Black <blackuse...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > Yes, I wondered about this too. Weren't prisoners
>> > segregated by nation of origin?
>>
>> And also by rank.
>
>
> It depended on which nation one is considering. In the USA
> PoWs
> from u-boats were kept together as crews, including officers.
> The advantage was the already established lines of discipline.
This was an exception to the rule, I suppose.
> Germans segregated by service, nationality, and then rank.
Like everybody else.
--
H
> On Nov 28, 10:05 am, William Black <blackuse...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > Yes, I wondered about this too. Weren't prisoners
>> > segregated by nation of origin?
>>
>> And also by rank.
>
>
> It depended on which nation one is considering. In the USA
> PoWs
> from u-boats were kept together as crews, including officers.
> The advantage was the already established lines of discipline.
> Germans segregated by service, nationality, and then rank.
--
H
Alan Nordin
Nov 28, 2011, 6:58:16 PM11/28/11
to
On Nov 28, 6:06 pm, Alan Nordin <alan_nor...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I believe you're speaking of how the US Army would do it. I'm talking
> about how {in this case} the German airforce did it, Stalag 13 was a
> Luftstalag.
Was it the case in the US that each service would be responsible for
> I believe you're speaking of how the US Army would do it. I'm talking
> about how {in this case} the German airforce did it, Stalag 13 was a
> Luftstalag.
the prisoners of the like service? Since the USAAF was part of the US
Army, would Luftwaffe prisoners be segregated from Heer prisoners?
This might also explain the difference in the way Kriegsmarine
prisoners were kept in the units in which they were captured, they
were being help in USN POW prisons instead of US Army POW prisons.
Alan
Diogenes
Nov 28, 2011, 11:47:09 PM11/28/11
to
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:13:23 -0500, GFH <geo...@ankerstein.org>
wrote:
In his book "The Good War", Studs Terkel includes an amusing interview
with an American aircrewman who was shot down over Germany and spent a
couple of years in a POW camp. He said the worst thing was the food -
they were fed turnips in every possible manner: boiled turnips, baked
turnips, fried turnips, turnip soup, turnip stew, even bread made from
turnips. He said that he now could not tolerate the smell of a turnip.
Their captors didn't like standing guard duty on cold winter nights so
they borrowed an attack-trained German Shepherd from a nearby SS unit
and turned it loose in the POW compound after curfew. The dog was
utterly vicious and the German guards themselves were terrified of it.
After about the third night the SS dog turned up missing. The Germans
assumed the dog had somehow found a way out of the POW compound and
spent hours inspecting the concentric fences of barbed wire trying to
find the opening through which it had escaped.
The American flyer laughed and said "That mutt didn't escape - we
killed and ATE the son-of-a-bitch! It might have been an 'SS trained
killer dog', but up against a hungry GI that poor bastard didn't even
have a prayer."
The Germans never did figure out what happened to their dog.
----
Diogenes
The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .
wrote:
with an American aircrewman who was shot down over Germany and spent a
couple of years in a POW camp. He said the worst thing was the food -
they were fed turnips in every possible manner: boiled turnips, baked
turnips, fried turnips, turnip soup, turnip stew, even bread made from
turnips. He said that he now could not tolerate the smell of a turnip.
Their captors didn't like standing guard duty on cold winter nights so
they borrowed an attack-trained German Shepherd from a nearby SS unit
and turned it loose in the POW compound after curfew. The dog was
utterly vicious and the German guards themselves were terrified of it.
After about the third night the SS dog turned up missing. The Germans
assumed the dog had somehow found a way out of the POW compound and
spent hours inspecting the concentric fences of barbed wire trying to
find the opening through which it had escaped.
The American flyer laughed and said "That mutt didn't escape - we
killed and ATE the son-of-a-bitch! It might have been an 'SS trained
killer dog', but up against a hungry GI that poor bastard didn't even
have a prayer."
The Germans never did figure out what happened to their dog.
----
Diogenes
The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .
Rhino
Nov 29, 2011, 12:28:50 AM11/29/11
to
"Rich Rostrom" <rrostrom.2...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:17d3f538-d141-4849...@m10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 26, 11:48 am, "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
> wrote:
>> ... there was very little in the way of
>> a resistance movement amongst Germans: I'm only aware of the White Rose
>> group, which was very small and not very effective.
>
> There was a lot more than the White Rose. The Communist
>> group, which was very small and not very effective.
>
> underground in Germany was small. This was in part due to
> mistaken tactics adopted in the 1920s and 1930s at Soviet
> insistence, which left German Communists exposed and
> vulnerable to the Gestapo. However, the survivors hung in
> and performed valuable espionage for the USSR, becoming
> known as the "Rote Kapelle" (Red Orchestra). However, the
> Gestapo penetrated the Red Orchestra, and most were
> captured in 1942-1943, before there were many U.S. PoWs.
>
I'd completely forgotten about the Rote Kapelle. I've read about them but
blanked out when I wrote my original post. Thanks for reminding me.
> There was also a much larger "Resistance" movement based
> mainly on elements of the German army which disliked Nazi
> rule, and on pre-Third-Reich conservatives, known as the
> "Schwarze Kapelle" (Black Orchestra). It was this group that
> attempted the assassination and coup d'etat of 20 July 1944.
> It should be noted that after the 20 July failure, thousands of
> people were arrested by the Gestapo for complicity.
>
I've never heard of the Schwarze Kapelle. I'd always heard the July 20 1944
group described as a conspiracy, not as a resistance movement, although I'm
not sure how I'd distinguish between the two.
> However, the US and Britain rejected any cooperation with the
> Black Orchestra, regarding them as merely a faction of German
> militarists trying to cut a deal and retain power. Thus it would
> be extremely improbable for Hogan's group to have any contact
> with them. Also, the Black Orchestra's goal was to overthrow
> the Nazis, not to assist Germany's military defeat by sabotage
> or military spying, which was Hogan's mission. (In 1940, the Black
> Orchestra leaked warnings of the attacks on Norway and France
> to the Allies, in hopes that German defeats would discredit the
> Nazis and lead to their overthrow; but many of them also served
> loyally in the Wehrmacht.)
>
One book I read about Von Stauffenberg and company describes them as having
a predominantly socialist outlook; they apparently intended to push Germany
toward the left if their plot had succeeded. I'm not sure if that is
generally accepted by other historians nor do I know what peace terms the
conspirators hoped to get. But that's a bit far from the original question
anyway.
> OTOH - by 1944-45, the US and Britain had many operatives in
> Germany, which was swarming with exiles and refugees from
> many countries. I'd think that Allied intelligence managed to recruit
> at least some of these people as agents, and possibly some
> native Germans as well. But I've never seen any documentation
> of such.
>
Good point. It's interesting how some things are still not known - perhaps
because no one has bothered to look for them, not necessarily because
something has been covered up - after so much study of a war with which so
many millions had direct experience....
--
Rhino
Rhino
Nov 29, 2011, 12:29:15 AM11/29/11
to
"Rhino" <no.offline.c...@example.com> wrote in message
news:jar26h$828$1...@news.datemas.de...
Thanks everyone for their contributions to this thread.
--
Rhino
news:jar26h$828$1...@news.datemas.de...
>I hope this isn't regarded as too frivolous but I was wondering if there is
>any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
>
[snip]
>any basis in reality to ANYTHING shown in the old TV series Hogan's Heroes?
>
Thanks everyone for their contributions to this thread.
--
Rhino
Rhino
Nov 29, 2011, 12:29:36 AM11/29/11
to
"GFH" <geo...@ankerstein.org> wrote in message
news:bf4a84e8-138d-44d0...@cu3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
accords, that would have all turned out very differently. Far fewer Soviet
prisoners would have died as well as far fewer German prisoners of Soviets,
such as the survivors of Stalingrad.
The percentage of German prisoners who died in Soviet captivity is clearly
far more than the percentage of Germans who died in British or American
captivity.
--
Stephen Graham
Nov 29, 2011, 12:51:49 AM11/29/11
to
On 11/28/11 9:29 PM, Rhino wrote:
> It seems to me that if Stalin had chosen to be a signatory to the Geneva
> accords, that would have all turned out very differently.
You're fooling yourself if you think that being a signatory to the
> It seems to me that if Stalin had chosen to be a signatory to the Geneva
> accords, that would have all turned out very differently.
Geneva Convention would have altered German treatment of Soviet prisoners.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Nov 29, 2011, 10:18:14 AM11/29/11
to
Ah yes, the truth hurts so it has to be deleted.
news:4ab87b5e-207c-458d...@da3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
Yes George, but that does not change the basic point, your ideas about
PoWs are wrong.
news:4ab87b5e-207c-458d...@da3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
PoWs are wrong.
William Black
Nov 29, 2011, 10:22:20 AM11/29/11
to
On 29/11/11 05:29, Rhino wrote:
>
> It seems to me that if Stalin had chosen to be a signatory to the Geneva
> accords, that would have all turned out very differently. Far fewer
> Soviet prisoners would have died as well as far fewer German prisoners
> of Soviets, such as the survivors of Stalingrad.
>
I doubt that.
>
> It seems to me that if Stalin had chosen to be a signatory to the Geneva
> accords, that would have all turned out very differently. Far fewer
> Soviet prisoners would have died as well as far fewer German prisoners
> of Soviets, such as the survivors of Stalingrad.
>
The murder of Soviet prisoners by the Germans was a matter of state policy.
MCGARRY
Nov 29, 2011, 10:27:49 AM11/29/11
to
>> of German prisoners post WWII was nowhere near as bad as George
>> keeps trying to believe. Hence the last sentence.
>
> OTHO, I got my numbers from Bischof& Ambrose, "Eisenhower and
>> keeps trying to believe. Hence the last sentence.
>
> the German POWs".
>
> GFH
>
At Foucarville near Utah beach there was a prison camp for German
>
> GFH
>
prisoners. They had schools, bakeries, cinemas, theatres, hospitals. It
was open till 1947 and held 40000 prisoners. Don't know the figures but
no doubt there would be deaths among 40000 in three years, but nobody
tried to escape, so they were pretty well content.
Mario
Nov 29, 2011, 11:20:08 AM11/29/11
to
Mario, 00:26, martedì 29 novembre 2011:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colditz_(TV_series)
--
H
>
> I remember British serial "Colditz", with *real* German
> actors.
I was wrong. Bad memory...
> I remember British serial "Colditz", with *real* German
> actors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colditz_(TV_series)
--
H
Shawn Wilson
Nov 29, 2011, 3:57:42 PM11/29/11
to
because of sadism/revenge (which they had every right to), the Soviet
had few extra resources to devote to captured Germans even if they had
wanted to.
GFH
Nov 29, 2011, 5:07:38 PM11/29/11
to
On Nov 29, 10:22 am, William Black <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The murder of Soviet prisoners by the Germans was a matter of state policy.
Absolutely correct. German planning for the invasion expected that
> The murder of Soviet prisoners by the Germans was a matter of state policy.
all
Soviet PoWs would be killed off. For efficiency, they put the PoWs
into a PoW camp and left them starve to death. Millions died in this
way. Since Stalin considered Soviet soldiers who surrendered were
traitors, there was no objection from the Soviets.
Germans changed this policy when they decided that they needed
the labor of PoWs.
GFH
Rich Rostrom
Nov 30, 2011, 1:28:15 AM11/30/11
to
On Nov 28, 11:28 pm, "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
wrote:
Stauffenberg was a member of the Kreisau Circle, an
important intellectual element in the Schwarze Kapelle.
The Kreisau group were very concerned about what
sort of government and culture Germany should
have in place of the Nazi regime. They wanted to
build a society that would not surrender to some
future demagogue or political gang.
They were socially conservative and strongly religious -
unlike nearly all capital-S socialists of the time.
But they didn't care for the "selfish individualism" and
social disruption of straight capitalism.
Their general conclusion was that the future Germany
should have a strong communitarian basis. They
projected a system of village and neighborhood
councils, which would be represented in district
councils, regional councils, and finally a national
assembly.
However, the Kreisau Circle was only part of the
Schwarze Kapelle. Though it included some of the
most energetic and important conspirators, it
numbered few if any of those with the highest
nominal positions, who would have been the
official leaders of the post-coup regime.
wrote:
> One book I read about Von Stauffenberg and company describes them as having
> a predominantly socialist outlook...
Stauffenberg was a member of the Kreisau Circle, an
important intellectual element in the Schwarze Kapelle.
The Kreisau group were very concerned about what
sort of government and culture Germany should
have in place of the Nazi regime. They wanted to
build a society that would not surrender to some
future demagogue or political gang.
They were socially conservative and strongly religious -
unlike nearly all capital-S socialists of the time.
But they didn't care for the "selfish individualism" and
social disruption of straight capitalism.
Their general conclusion was that the future Germany
should have a strong communitarian basis. They
projected a system of village and neighborhood
councils, which would be represented in district
councils, regional councils, and finally a national
assembly.
However, the Kreisau Circle was only part of the
Schwarze Kapelle. Though it included some of the
most energetic and important conspirators, it
numbered few if any of those with the highest
nominal positions, who would have been the
official leaders of the post-coup regime.
Don Kirkman
Dec 1, 2011, 6:35:53 PM12/1/11
to
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:21:58 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
[Major snip]
>2. American and British military culture differ from each
>other in some details. Most obviously "camp concerts"
>(amateur cabarets by soldiers) with "drag acts" (men
>dressed as women) were a much more familiar feature
>of British army life than American. (I have never been
>sure whether the drag acts in the musical South Pacific
>really happened during the US Navy campaign or had
>been borrowed from the British tradition by the Broadway
>producers.)
The Broadway producers took that conceit from James Michener's
1946/1947 novel "Tales of the South Pacific," which won a Pulitzer
Prize. Michener drew on his wartime experiences in the US Navy in the
South Pacific, including the Solomon Islands; I don't know whether
Michener was aware of such performances or if he might have known of
the British tradition--or if he might have used his story-telling
skills to invent them.
[More snip]
>Later in the Korean War more captured Americans died in
>PoW camps than did British PoWs, and it was suggested
>their different military traditions explained this. After
>capture, Americans tended to tell themselves army rules
>no longer applied, and behaved like independent civilians,
>while British PoWs maintained military discipline, obedience
>to rank, etc., deemed later to improve survival rates.
I'm new to the thread, so have missed citations to who suggested this,
and what support the suggestion had. Was this an attitude of the
majority of American POWs, or was a small number of individuals taken
as representative of the larger population?
Were the POWs of both forces in the same camps receiving the same
treatment, or were the British and Americans treated differently by
the Chinese and North Koreans? Different treatment could quite
conceivably produced different attitudes.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
[Major snip]
>2. American and British military culture differ from each
>other in some details. Most obviously "camp concerts"
>(amateur cabarets by soldiers) with "drag acts" (men
>dressed as women) were a much more familiar feature
>of British army life than American. (I have never been
>sure whether the drag acts in the musical South Pacific
>really happened during the US Navy campaign or had
>been borrowed from the British tradition by the Broadway
>producers.)
1946/1947 novel "Tales of the South Pacific," which won a Pulitzer
Prize. Michener drew on his wartime experiences in the US Navy in the
South Pacific, including the Solomon Islands; I don't know whether
Michener was aware of such performances or if he might have known of
the British tradition--or if he might have used his story-telling
skills to invent them.
[More snip]
>Later in the Korean War more captured Americans died in
>PoW camps than did British PoWs, and it was suggested
>their different military traditions explained this. After
>capture, Americans tended to tell themselves army rules
>no longer applied, and behaved like independent civilians,
>while British PoWs maintained military discipline, obedience
>to rank, etc., deemed later to improve survival rates.
and what support the suggestion had. Was this an attitude of the
majority of American POWs, or was a small number of individuals taken
as representative of the larger population?
Were the POWs of both forces in the same camps receiving the same
treatment, or were the British and Americans treated differently by
the Chinese and North Koreans? Different treatment could quite
conceivably produced different attitudes.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Don Phillipson
Dec 1, 2011, 11:02:06 PM12/1/11
to
"MCGARRY" <webma...@cpmac.com> wrote in message
news:4ed3c5c3$0$5699$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr...
> A tv series taht was based on reality was Colditz. It was a castle prison
> for officers who nearly all thought it was their duty to escape.
Not quite: Oflag IV-C at Colditz Castle was a special prison
used only for (1) politically important individuals, (2) officer PoWs
who had earlier escaped (more than once, most of them.) The
German idea was to segregate experienced escapers under closer
guard than the average.
Both British and French military policy was that it was the duty
of all officer prisoners to attempt to escape. (It was not a personal
option, although unenforceable.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa Canada)
news:4ed3c5c3$0$5699$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr...
> A tv series taht was based on reality was Colditz. It was a castle prison
> for officers who nearly all thought it was their duty to escape.
used only for (1) politically important individuals, (2) officer PoWs
who had earlier escaped (more than once, most of them.) The
German idea was to segregate experienced escapers under closer
guard than the average.
Both British and French military policy was that it was the duty
of all officer prisoners to attempt to escape. (It was not a personal
option, although unenforceable.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
wjho...@aol.com
Dec 2, 2011, 1:20:43 AM12/2/11
to
On Dec 1, 6:35 pm, Don Kirkman wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:21:58 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
>
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:21:58 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
>
> >Later in the Korean War more captured Americans died in
> >PoW camps than did British PoWs, and it was suggested
> >their different military traditions explained this. After
> >capture, Americans tended to tell themselves army rules
> >no longer applied.... while British PoWs maintained military
> >PoW camps than did British PoWs, and it was suggested
> >their different military traditions explained this. After
> >capture, Americans tended to tell themselves army rules
> >discipline... deemed later to improve survival rates.
>
> .... Was this an attitude of the majority of American POWs, or
> was a small number of individuals taken as representative of
> the larger population? Were the POWs of both forces...
> receiving the same treatment, or ...treated differently....Different
> treatment could..produced different attitudes.
But there were other considerations. Wikipedia, in a section of
statistics covering the Korean War, quotes casualty figures released
by the Republic of Korea which could explain how factors other than
military traditions might explain differences in the death rates of
US
v. UK POWs.
According to these statistics, there were 302,000 Americans and
14,200 from the UK who served in the Korean War. Of those numbers,
4,439 Americans and 977 from the UK became POWs, i.e., approx 1.5% of
the Americans and 7% of those from the UK. Why a much higher
percentage of those from the UK became POWs was not explained,
although it seems doubtful that a higher degree of UK military
discipline could have had anything to with it.
A further look at the casualty rates reveals that insofar as the
number of American vis-a-vis UK soldiers killed, a reverse in
percentages is
true. Compared to the 36,940 Americans killed (!2% of the U.S
302,000 total) only 8% of the UK contingent were killed. And
as for the wounded, the figures also show a higher rate of Americans
{31%) versus 19% of those from the UK were wounded.
It would seem that the higher percentage of UK soldiers who became
POWs compared to the percentage of Americans who also did, does not
jibe with the lower percentage of UK dead and wounded, unless the two
contingents were engaged in fire fights of a different type and degree
of intensity from one another. There are, however,in the ROK
statistics to which I refer, no percentages showing the relative
number of POW survivors to compare the survival rates of the UK
prisoners vis-a-vis the number of surviving Americans. Accordingly,
we will probably
never know whether or not the alleged superior discipline shown
by the UK prisoners, if such was indeed the case, had anything to
do with which country had the better POW survival rete.
WJH
MCGARRY
Dec 5, 2011, 4:47:42 PM12/5/11
to
MCGARRY
Dec 5, 2011, 5:48:07 PM12/5/11
to
Le 05/12/2011 22:47, MCGARRY a écrit :
> Le 02/12/2011 05:02, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>> "MCGARRY"<webma...@cpmac.com> wrote in message
>> news:4ed3c5c3$0$5699$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr...
>>
>>> A tv series taht was based on reality was Colditz. It was a castle
>>> prison
>>> for officers who nearly all thought it was their duty to escape.
>>
>> Not quite: Oflag IV-C at Colditz Castle was a special prison
As prison camps go it seems to have been a three star establishment.
> Le 02/12/2011 05:02, Don Phillipson a écrit :
>> "MCGARRY"<webma...@cpmac.com> wrote in message
>> news:4ed3c5c3$0$5699$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr...
>>
>>> A tv series taht was based on reality was Colditz. It was a castle
>>> prison
>>> for officers who nearly all thought it was their duty to escape.
>>
>> Not quite: Oflag IV-C at Colditz Castle was a special prison
There was a documentary recently about it with interviews of ex
prisoners and ex guards. They all agreed there was a sort of cat and
mouse game going on. The Germans knew they were all trying to escape and
it was their job to stop them.
When some prisoners tried to escape wearing uniforms made by a camp made
sewing machine the Germans were going to confiscate it. The prisoners
said they needed it to repair cloths, so the germans allowed them to
keep it if they promised not to make badges with it.
The german's hobnailed boots on the courtyard disturbed the prisoners
sleep so the guards were issued with rubber soled boots.
Space Captain Kurt Kosmic
Dec 8, 2011, 6:18:27 PM12/8/11
to
On Nov 27, 12:48 pm, Shawn Wilson <ikonoql...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 26, 10:48 am, "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
> wrote:
> > by authentic German or Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer,
> > was German-born. Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by
> > Leon Askin, were born in Austria.
There is also a 'Schultz' like guard in the very interesting 1955 film
'The Colditz Story'. IIRC the character's name is Franz Joseph and
he's a rather jovial rotund character who seems well liked by the
prisoners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Colditz_Story
The film struck me as having a very sympathetic portrayal of the
German guards, and gives the prisoners of non-english speaking
nationalities a decent share of the lime light.
If anyone is interested in seeing but has trouble getting hold of it,
I have a copy on PAL VHS I'd be happy to lend them.
> On Nov 26, 10:48 am, "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.ple...@example.com>
> wrote:
> > by authentic German or Austrian actors. Klink, played by Werner Klemperer,
> > was German-born. Schultz, played by John Banner, and Burkhalter, played by
> > Leon Askin, were born in Austria.
There is also a 'Schultz' like guard in the very interesting 1955 film
'The Colditz Story'. IIRC the character's name is Franz Joseph and
he's a rather jovial rotund character who seems well liked by the
prisoners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Colditz_Story
The film struck me as having a very sympathetic portrayal of the
German guards, and gives the prisoners of non-english speaking
nationalities a decent share of the lime light.
If anyone is interested in seeing but has trouble getting hold of it,
I have a copy on PAL VHS I'd be happy to lend them.
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