Luftwaffe pilot records??
e...@evt.mv.com
Hi,
Does anyone know where to find records of Luftwaffe pilots? I'm
interested in the career of Daniel Montaigne(sp?) who was known to an
uncle of mine(now dead) in Germany. Montaigne had at least 20
victories(small by the standards of the day) and the only theatre I
know he served in was the Bastonge area in 1944. Any help would be
appreciated.
- Eric
(e...@evt.mv.com)
ZABAVA
: Does anyone know where to find records of Luftwaffe pilots? I'm
: interested in the career of Daniel Montaigne(sp?) who was known to an
: uncle of mine(now dead) in Germany. Montaigne had at least 20
: victories(small by the standards of the day) and the only theatre I
Wanted to point out 20 victories were only "small" in relation to German
pilots. An American or British pilot that had 20 kills would be
considered a top ranking ace :-) No other nation, besides Germany, had
such a target rich environment as the first couple of years on the
Eastern Front.
Sorry, had to say that even if I can't help out :-)
Seve
Patrick J. Shanahan
e...@evt.mv.com wrote:
> Does anyone know where to find records of Luftwaffe pilots? I'm
>interested in the career of Daniel Montaigne(sp?) who was known to an
>uncle of mine(now dead) in Germany. Montaigne had at least 20
>victories(small by the standards of the day) and the only theatre I
>know he served in was the Bastonge area in 1944. Any help would be
>appreciated.
Try the BUNDESARCHIV (Federal Archive) in Koblenz, Germany
or the German Air Force Museum in Uetersen near Hamburg.
Another possible source is the German Fighter Pilot's Assoc., in
German this is "GEMEINSCHAFT der JAGDFLIEGER e.V.".
Addresses can probably be obtained from the German embassy
in Washington.
Patrick
Bill Shatzer
> e...@evt.mv.com wrote:
> : Does anyone know where to find records of Luftwaffe pilots? I'm
> : interested in the career of Daniel Montaigne(sp?) who was known to an
> : uncle of mine(now dead) in Germany. Montaigne had at least 20
> : victories(small by the standards of the day) and the only theatre I
>
> Wanted to point out 20 victories were only "small" in relation to German
> pilots. An American or British pilot that had 20 kills would be
> considered a top ranking ace :-) No other nation, besides Germany, had
> such a target rich environment as the first couple of years on the
> Eastern Front.
>
> Sorry, had to say that even if I can't help out :-)
>
I can see it's time to slay this hoary theory again.
German aces, 'tis true, did run up some remarkable aerial
victory scores but the 'target rich environment of the
Eastern Front' was only one, of many, many factors
contributing to the high victory totals of Luftwaffe aces.
Consider the victory totals of some Luftwaffe pilots who
scored most or all of their victories on the -Western-
fronts:
158 Hans-Joachim Marseilles (158)
121 Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer (121)
112 Kurt Buehligen (112)
110 Helmut Lent (110)
104 Werner Schroer (114)
104 Adolf Galland (104)
102 Joachim Muenchenberg (135)
102 Egan Mayer (102)
101 Joseph 'Pips' Priller (101)
97 Gustav Roedel (98)
93 Josef Wurmheller (102)
93 Herbert Rollwage (102)
87 Siegfried Schnell (93)
77 Werner Moelders (101)
73 Walter Oesau (117)
68 Hans 'Assi' Hahn (108)
(Listed by credited western fronts victories, total victories
(in parentheses - some sources give slightly different
(numbers.)
All these folks had more aerial victories on the Western
fronts than the highest scoring allied ace did in total!
Who was, incidentally, Ivan Kojedub of the Soviet Air
force who flew -exclusively- in the 'target rich environment
of the Eastern Front.'
And, isn't a 'target rich environment' just another way of
saying '-really- outnumbered?'
Cheers,
--
Bill Shatzer - bsha...@ednet1.osl.or.gov - aw...@FreeNet.Carleton.ca
Scott K. Stafford
In article <DKx1K...@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>,
aw...@freenet.carleton.ca (Bill Shatzer) wrote:
->All these folks had more aerial victories on the Western
->fronts than the highest scoring allied ace did in total!
->Who was, incidentally, Ivan Kojedub of the Soviet Air
->force who flew -exclusively- in the 'target rich environment
->of the Eastern Front.'
True, but the length of service of German pilots was FAR in excess of those
of American pilots, for example. US pilots were rotated home on a regular
basis, while Luftwaffe pilots continued to fly combat missions (and, if
they were any good, rack up kills...).
It would be interesting to hear if any data is available on "kills per
mission flown" or some similar leveling criteria. It would be nice to
compare the "average" US pilot to the "average" German pilot, given the
vastly different philosophies with respect to withdrawing experienced
pilots from combat to train new pilots. It might also be interesting to
find out which pilot had the greatest kill ratio per mission flown.
***
SKS
***
ZABAVA
Bill Shatzer (aw...@freenet.carleton.ca) wrote:
: ZABAVA (zab...@shore.net) writes:
: I can see it's time to slay this hoary theory again.
: German aces, 'tis true, did run up some remarkable aerial
: victory scores but the 'target rich environment of the
: Eastern Front' was only one, of many, many factors
: contributing to the high victory totals of Luftwaffe aces.
Bill,
Believe me, I am one who agrees with you that German air tactics,
communication, and aircraft were the greatest reason for the many German
aces that had total kills 4 to 5 times higher than other "top" aces in
other nations. The poor quality of some airforces (Poland, France, early
SU, etc) only added to this superiority.
However, an otherwise mediocre pilot had a great chance to rack up
serrious kills in the first 2 years of the war in the East. US, British,
French, and Soviet pilots never got this chance. Also remeber that by
the time the Western Allies got back on the continent the Luftwaffe was
out numbered and out supplied.
So to clarify my point: 20 victories was only small by German
standards. The "target rich environment" reffers to the terrible
tactics, poor aircraft quality, and huge numbers of the early Soviet
Airforce, which allowed even mediocre German pilots to score impressive
(by Allied standards) victories. But truely gifted German pilots
scored enormous kills against all of the WWII airforces, even towards
the end of the war.
Steve
Dan Ford
On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Bill Shatzer wrote:
>
> And, isn't a 'target rich environment' just another way of
> saying '-really- outnumbered?'
Just so.
And if you believe those German ace credits, I am sure that there is a cab
driver in New York who would be happy to sell you a wonderful bridge.
-- Dan
Find the Brewster Buffalo Archives at http://wilmot.unh.edu/~df/buff.html
Bill Shatzer
Aha! I just happen to have that sitting right here by the keyboard! (although
not for the -average- pilot)
This from Toliver and Constable's "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe". comparing
Werner Moelders of the Luftwaffe and Robert Johnson of the USAAF.
"Johnson was in action less than eleven months from his first kill to his last.
He has then forbidden to fly further combat. If his performance is projected
over five years, assuming that kill rates can be subjected to this
abstraction, it is evident that he would have scored over one
hundred victories - as did many Luftwaffe aces who flew from 1939 to 1945.
This 'projection', of course, assumes that Johnson would have survived and
found sufficient combat opportunities.
By comparison, Moelders in his first year of of WW2 action recorded 40 kills
in 179 combat missions. He thus flew more often in a year than Bob Johnson
did in 1943-44. Had Johnson doubled his missions in the eleven months he
flew, his score would project to 56, or rather more than Moelders scored in
the same time span."
Or, in summary, Johnson required 91 missions to score his first (and only)
28 kills while Moelders required 142 combat missions to record his first
28 kills. Of course, in total, and ignoring Moelders 14 kills in Spain, Johnson
had -only- 28 total aerial victories while Moelders had 101.
So, what does this prove? Nothing! Both Bob Johnson and Werner Moelders
were outstanding fighter pilots and neither one was -intrinsically- superior
to the other. Had Bob Johnson been born in Dusseldorf and Werner Moelders
in Omaha, their scores would probably have been reversed but they would still
both have been superior pilots. Their differences in total aerial victories
was more the result of their differing tactical and strategic situations,
the different rotation policies, differing equipment, opposition, leadership,
blah, blah, blah than in their skills as -pilots-.
But, still, I return to my original point, which was not that Luftwaffe pilots
were some kind of supermen or possessed some sort of innate superiority over
opposing pilots which allowed them to rack up victory totals in the
three digits, but rather that the high scoring Luftwaffe aces were -very-
good pilots, indeed, and that it was not any one factor which contributed
to their success but rather a combination, including some -very, very-
good talent. And any Luftwaffe pilot with victor totals in the three figure or
medium to high two figure range didn't achieve those totals without
being one -hellava- good fighter pilot!
Ya don't get 50+ victories by 'cherry-picking' in a 'target rich environment'.
Ya get 50+ victories by being 'one hellava fighter pilot'!
Bill Shatzer
(efr...@msuvx2.memphis.edu) writes:
-snips-
> And Dan (AVG?) Ford says:
>
>> Just so.
>>
>> And if you believe those German ace credits, I am sure that there is a cab
>> driver in New York who would be happy to sell you a wonderful bridge.
>
> true numbers of Luftwaffe kills, and how do we
> know? Constable and Tolliver accept the overall
> claims-- what are they missing that the better-
> informed are not?
>
We don't know the -true- numbers. 'Official' aerial victories are
just that - 'official'. But we do know that the Luftwaffe system
for crediting 'official' victories was fairly rigorous, certainly
as rigorous, if not more so, than that of the USAAF or the RAF.
During the early phases of the war, especially during the battle
of Britain, where aerial combat occured over allied territory and
their were no German ground observers to witness the combat or
to search for ground wreckage, it appears than German claims
exceeded actual allied loses by a factor of about 1.8 to 1 -
an overclaim to be sure but certainly less than the documented
overclaims by USAAF and RAF flyers (for instance, if the claims
of the 8th AF bomber aerial gunners were true, the bombers alone
shot down more Luftwaffe fighters than were produced by German
industry in the entire last 3 years of the war!)
And, even during the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe overclaims
were less than they appear at first glance - the RAF, for instance,
didn't count an aircraft as lost in combat if it was able to land
anyplace, even if it was so badly damaged that it never flew again.
If these 'effectively shot down' aircraft were added to the ones
the British official records acknowledge as lost, the ratio drops
to something around 1.5 to 1 or even less.
Later, when the Luftwaffe was generally fighting over its own
territory or at least reasonably close to its own front lines,
where combat was often visiable to German ground observers and
aircraft wrecks could often be observed and/or recovered, the
discrepancy between acknowledged loses and German claims seems
to drop to something closer to (but still greater than) zero.
For instance, in Martin Middlebrook's book, the 'Nuremburg
Raid', he pretty extensively documents RAF bomber losses and
Luftwaffe claims. If I remember correctly, the RAF records
acknowledged a loss of 62 aircraft while the Luftwaffe claimed
76 offical victories - an overclaim of less than 25%. If one
adds in the bombers which were able to make it back to England
but which crash landed there or were so badly damaged, they
never flew again, I think the German overclaims disappear almost
completely. (All this is from memory as I don't have the book
here - I might be off on the exact numbers but the general
thrust is correct.)
'Course, all this is for the western fronts - as the Soviets
were never obliging enough to release 'uncooked' numbers for
their own losses, we really have no means of comparing German
claims with Soviet losses on the eastern front - still there is
no reason to think the experience there was much different than
on the western fronts.
So, did Hartmann -really- shoot down 300+ aircraft? Probably not,
but he was almost certainly over 200 and if we add in any -real-
victories for which he was, for one reason or another, never
awarded an 'official' victory, we are probably in the mid to high
200's. In any case, a hell of a lot of scrap metal littering the
landscape of Europe.
Kenneth L. Sobel
Dear Bill,
>I can see it's time to slay this hoary theory again.
>German aces, 'tis true, did run up some remarkable aerial
>victory scores but the 'target rich environment of the
>Eastern Front' was only one, of many, many factors
>contributing to the high victory totals of Luftwaffe aces.
>
>Consider the victory totals of some Luftwaffe pilots who
>scored most or all of their victories on the -Western-
>fronts:
>
>158 Hans-Joachim Marseilles (158)
>121 Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer (121)
>112 Kurt Buehligen (112)
>
>... etc. ...
>
>All these folks had more aerial victories on the Western
>fronts than the highest scoring allied ace did in total!"
I agree that a "target rich environment" does mean one is
outnumbered, and I also agree that it is one of a number of
factors that led to the remarkable German fighter pilot
victory scores. I'm confused on one point: if you agree that
the target rich environment on the Eastern Front is one of
several relevant factors, why the need to "slay this hoary
theory?"
Of course, the other key factor that led to the high scores
(including those on the Western Front) was the practice of
not rotating pilots out of combat. Unlike the Allies, who
sent their experienced pilots home to train their
replacements (thereby insuring a steady supply of well
trained new pilots), the Luftwaffe fought their experienced
pilots until they died (or the war ended). This practice did
much for their final scores, but also led to a situation in
which there were fewer and fewer experienced pilots left,
either for combat or for training.
Regards,
Ken Sobel
Bill Shatzer
-snips-
Well, not to beat a 'dead horse', but.... <gr>
> I agree that a "target rich environment" does mean one is
> outnumbered, and I also agree that it is one of a number of
> factors that led to the remarkable German fighter pilot
> victory scores. I'm confused on one point: if you agree that
> the target rich environment on the Eastern Front is one of
> several relevant factors, why the need to "slay this hoary
> theory?"
>
Because your theory was originally presented without qualification
as -the- reason, rather than as -a- reason or a -contributing
factor-. The fact that the Bf109's had lots of I-153's and
SB-2's to 'beat up on' in 1941-42 certainly helped 'run-up'
the totals of some of the Luftwaffe's leading aces. Yet the
best of the Luftwaffe pilots did equally well facing Yak-9's
and LaGG-5's and Il-2's (well, maybe not Il-2's!) later in the
war as well as Spits and Hurricanes and Tommahawks on the
western fronts.
> Of course, the other key factor that led to the high scores
> (including those on the Western Front) was the practice of
> not rotating pilots out of combat.
Agreed - the top Luftwaffe aces probably had three or four times
as many combat missions as the leading -western- allied aces.
Of course, they had -many- more than three or four times as
many victories so this was not the -only- factor. Marseilles
only had 7 victories when he arrived in North Africa and only
flew in N.A. from April, '41 through Sept '42 with 'timeout' for
a 3 month leave home. In those 14 months, he scored -150-
official victories!
> Unlike the Allies, who
> sent their experienced pilots home to train their
> replacements (thereby insuring a steady supply of well
> trained new pilots), the Luftwaffe fought their experienced
> pilots until they died (or the war ended). This practice did
> much for their final scores, but also led to a situation in
> which there were fewer and fewer experienced pilots left,
> either for combat or for training.
>
Well, of the 15 Luftwaffe pilots with over 200 victories, 10 of
them survived the war - so there -were- some very experienced
pilots left at the end. But, your point is well taken.