missions, B-25 Mitchell, what was the norm, what was the record?
Boris
missions was the standard tour of duty one would do before going home
during WWII.
Q1. Is this true?
Q2. Would 77 missions in a B-25, first as bombadier then as lead
navigator, be common or unheard of?
I know someone who actually did this. He was never shot down but once
came close; the pilot was able to pull them out of a dive over Aosta
after a near-direct hit. He still has the bits of shrapnel that
knocked him out in the case with one of his several medals of valor.
At 82 years old he's best described as "the last boy scout" so he
categorically makes light of his achievements.
Tell me this, is he still making light of having flown 77 missions out
of Corsica from 1943-1945?
--
Cub Driver
>Joseph Heller, in "Catch-22", would have us believe that 25 bombing
>missions was the standard tour of duty one would do before going home
>during WWII.
>
>Q1. Is this true?
Definitely not. It was the early goal for B-17s and perhaps for B-24s
as well, based on the notion that 25 missions gave you a 50/50 chance
of living. These early missions -- Schweinfurt, Ploesti -- were
extremely long and hazardous, against German defenses at the top of
their form.
The A-20 crews in North Africa/Sicily/Italy had a target of 50
missions in 1942-43, presumably based on the fact that the missions
flown were shorter. (Indeed, some were so short that they failed to
meet the minimum requirement for a mission, which may have been
something like 20 minutes.)
The B-26 crews in Britain had a mission goal (I forget what it was)
that was suspended in the run-up to D-Day. The planes were needed, so
the number of missions was forgotten.
I think that, overall, 50 missions was more common than 25.
>Q2. Would 77 missions in a B-25, first as bombadier then as lead
>navigator, be common or unheard of?
I don't think it would be common (from what I have read, 50 missions
seems to have been pretty typical) but neither would it be impossible.
all the best -- Dan Ford (email: web AT danford.net)
see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
Ed Frank
> Joseph Heller, in "Catch-22", would have us believe that 25 bombing
> missions was the standard tour of duty one would do before going home
> during WWII.
My memory is vague on the details, but I thought
the number in Heller's books was at first 35, then
50, then 60. The raising of the numnber was one of
the themes of the book.
> Q1. Is this true?
AFAIK, only for 8th AF bombers in the first few
years. It was not a worldwide standard in the
USAAC/USAAF/USAF.
> Q2. Would 77 missions in a B-25, first as bombadier then as lead
> navigator, be common or unheard of?
Certainly not unheard of. My own father was
a B25 pilot who flew 57 missions from Nov 44
to April 45 (Italy-Austria-Yugoslavia); I know
of another B25 bombadier who did 75 missions
in the CBI theater, as well as a B26 pilot who
flew 60+ missions from bases in the UK and
France from mid-44 to early 1945.
[space snips]
> Tell me this, is he still making light of having flown 77 missions out
> of Corsica from 1943-1945?
I'm not sure I understand who the "he" is in your
question.
Ed Frank
--
Milspec4
was the standard tour of duty one would do before going home during WWII.<<
brought home from WWII, unless of high rank or destined for Arlington or West
Point interment. 25 was the first figure set for the 8th AF in western Europe
and first reached by the B-17 Memphis Belle. This was when the average life of
an 8th AF bomber was 8 missions. Belle had one crew member killed but, after
repairs, flew home for a Bond Tour. In the Med, considered less dangerous, the
number was 50 initially.
Two busy 12th AF B-25 outfits, in the Med, were the 310th Bomb Group and the
321st BG. When moving operations from North Africa to Corsica, at the end of
the African Campaign, the missions of the 310th changed from strategic and
tactical bombardment to tactical only. In late 1943, B-25-G's arrived in the
310th. They had awesome weaponry: a 75mm cannon in the nose and fourteen .50
caliber machine guns, some firing forward. These 'gunslingers' had been
developed and used extensively in the South Pacific with much success. It was
felt that they could be used against German shipping in the Med as well.
Eighteen B-25's, while on a routine sea sweep after German shipping, ran into a
Luftwaffe aerial convoy off the coast of Cape Bon, in North Africa, flying at
about 200 feet above water. 25 German transports and a dozen or so ME 210's
and other assorted 'fighters' were completely destroyed by the 310th and their
fighter escort of P-38s.
B-25s crews of the 321st BG flew the Atlantic from Natal to Ascenscion Island
to Dakar and Corsica, being in combat from May 1944 to June 1945. 50 missions
were the norm in '44.. As replacements crews became fewer, the number of
required missions kept increasing until the Germans had retreated through the
Brenner Pass. 70 + missions became common as the 321st moved from Corsica to
western mainland bases at Ancona and Falconara. By that time, enemy fighters
were scarce and occasional missions had P-51 or P-38 escorts. The B-25's didn't
have a long enough radius of action to fly missions into Germany. Such missions
were the assigned to the B-24s.
In general, the Med Groups were required to do twice the number of missions as
the those in western Europe. 100 was the last max for the Med, but few reached
it before hostilities ended. Sometimes, it depended on the crew and what they'd
done. Some were brought home early [both bomber and solo fighter types] for
Bond-selling tours, if one of their missions had been exemplary and received
considerable publicity in the home press. One USAAC outfit, based in Australia,
transitioned from B-26s/ B-25s to B-24s in order to have greater range, bomb
load and safer [higher] altitudes for their missions. Remarkably, the B-26
groups, of western Europe, had the lowest rate of losses of bombers, after they
were switched from low to medium altitude bombing. For good pix and text of
B-26 precision bombing, see a 26 bombadier's site at Art Kramer or see this url
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/.
In the 8th AF, the custom of removing the stiffening wire from the peaked
uniform cap was called the "50 Mission Crush". It was flaunted by those bomber
crews lucky enough to live long enough to wear them, after the number required
was raised from 25 to 50 and more. This custom was well before the time of
flak vests and steel helmets for bomber crews.
Remember, Heller basically wrote an anti-war Novel emphasizing the confusion,
frustration and futility always associated with such endeavors, especially for
those like draftees, who don't want to be there in the first place, or those
vols who found out it was not as they had expected. All US wars have been this
way, from the revolution to and including Iraqi Freedom. All Vol members may
not like some things but they won't grpe about it in public, if they want to
put in their '20', or less, with no hassles and regular promotions.
Chris Mark
>navigator, be common or unheard of?
Not at all, especially if you decided to extend your tour. Many people
actually enjoyed the life of an aircrew, and didn't consider it particularly
more dangerous work than, say, working on the railroad or as a trucker, or on a
logging crew, or as a miner or on a fishing boat or even as a horse wrangler or
cowpoke. Lots of men had dangerous jobs in civilian life in those days,
working with dangerous equipment and few or no safeguards such as are required
by law nowadays. People were killed on a fairly regularly basis during bombing
missions. But so were they on a lot of civilian jobs. Even driving a car was
much more dangerous in those days than today.
Chris Mark
Cub Driver
>Even driving a car was
>much more dangerous in those days than today.
There is a rather large difference between taking a routine risk on
the highway than putting yourself in a place where people are shooting
at you.
There is no doubt a small group of war lovers who groove on getting
shot at, but I have never met one, and I have not only been in the
army but also for a short period in a war zone.
all the best -- Dan Ford (email: web AT danford.net)
see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
--
Scotty
news:<3ebc3335...@news.pacific.net.au>...in reply to the question
>"Would 77 missions in a B-25, first as bombadier then as lead
>navigator, be common or unheard of?"<
working with dangerous equipment and few or no safeguards such as are
required by law nowadays. People were killed on a fairly regularly
basis during bombing missions. But so were they on a lot of civilian
jobs.<<
stress and fatigue, between working where a frequent random accident
may cause death or severe injury and when you know someone, who is
definitely trying to kill you, is in the vicinity looking for you. Today,
the most dangerous civilian job is considered Bering sea crabbing. Each
season, ships regularly founder with loss of all hands. The water is much
colder than that of the Med or North Sea.
WWII combat tours were not only rated by degree of danger but also
duration, as has been mentioned by Dan Ford. Some were rated
as '0' tours {radio relay} and others, like 'spotting' from a safer altitude,
might be given a 1/2 rating. There were general guidlines but, the decision
was one for the command that ordered the mission.
Chris Mark
>There is a rather large difference between taking a routine risk on
>the highway than putting yourself in a place where people are shooting
>at you.
Yes...and--no. When the job you do has become routine, so do the risks.
>There is no doubt a small group of war lovers who groove on getting
>shot at, but I have never met one, and I have not only been in the
>army but also for a short period in a war zone.
I have served in four war zones--New Guinea, Italy, Korea, Viet Nam. I really
don't grasp what your point is.
In the case of the danger of B-25 missions in 1944-45, of which I flew quite a
number, let us look at the official figures for one of the toughest campaigns,
Operation Bingo. Lasting about six months and involving the entire 57th Bomb
Wing flying 6,849 sorties against targets defended by 525 heavy flak guns and
50 fighters, total losses from all causes were 46 B-25s (only 2 shot down by
fighters). Flak damaged 532 more.
In other words, 6,271 times a crew of 5-7 men took off in dangerously
overloaded bombers and flew into the Italian Alps, often missing mountain peaks
by a few feet, often facing severe weather conditions such as only high
mountains generate, and came up against hundreds of radar-directed
anti-aircraft guns, as well as dozens of fighters, all dedicated to killing
them---and not only were they not even scratched, neither were their airplanes.
Nothing happened to them at all! They dropped their bombs and went home to
some hot chow and the latest issue of Yank.
As far as casualites, a total of 10 men were killed. Some 131 were captured by
the enemy after bailing out, returning when the war ended. Ninety-two men were
wounded, only 12 seriously.
During that six months, an aircrewman could very well have accumulated 25-35
missions. The risk of being killed was very low.
Every mission during Operation Bingo was a tough mission. But during the
course of 1944, a B-25 bomber crew in Italy could expect to fly a number of
missions in which they would not encounter any flak or fighters at all. And the
flying weather would be perfect. Personal risk was hardly greater than
stateside.
I was an aerial gunnery instructor at Greenville when I *volunteered* to join
an understrength crew going overseas because I was tired of being vomited on by
airsick trainees. I had been in New Guinea in the earliest days when it was
really bad, and had some concept of air combat. Yet I didn't volunteer with
the expectation that my dear old mother would collect my GI life insurance.
Nor did I go because I loved war. I just had had enough of what i was doing
and wanted to move on to something else.
Now if you want to talk about danger, talk infantry. In the fall of 1950 in
Korea I was in charge of a Tactical Air Control Party assigned to the 3rd
Infantry Division when all the Chinese in the world swarmed down on us. Have
you ever burned out the barrel of an M-2 carbine? And then run for your life?
If you want to talk danger and risk to life, talk infantry. Now maybe the 8th
air force over Germany or the RAF night bombers had it as hard as some of the
infantry (and one of my best friends was a togglier in the 8th and I know from
him what the differences were between the air war over Germany and in Italy,
and my comments don't apply to going to Schweinfurt in 1943). But, let's face
it, crewing a medium bomber over Italy in 1944-45 was not that high risk a job.
Maybe on par with being on a construction gang building a big bridge or
skyscraper. Dangerous, demanding, hard work, yes--but not overwhelmingly so.
Chris Mark