What were those Tanks (in "Saving Pvt. Ryan") ?
Scott Begg
Hello, there!
I had a question from the movie Saving Private Ryan, which I
saw last week...
During the last battle, Captain Miller's ad hoc detail has to
defend a village and keep German units from crossing a bridge (one of
the few non-interdicted bridges in that region), and if need be, to
actually destroy the bridge.
The troops set up an ambush, and the sharpshooter climbs to
the top of the tower and signals back to the Captain what AFVs and
troops the Germans have... If I remember correctly, he signals to the
Captain that there were "Two Tigers, Two Panzers (sic)...(other
stuff)..., and 30 some odd troops..." Given that US troops at that
time called "Panthers" Panzers, I assumed he was identifying Panther
tanks as the second AFVs...
I had trouble identifying the AFVs in the film. Let me
explain...
1. There were two Tiger IE's (PxKmpfwgn VI Ausf E)... These
were identifiable as such, although some detail might have been off
(note that they even had their ATMM paste adhered to the armor!)
2. If you looked down the alley (or main street) of the
village at the beginning of the battle, Captain Miller comments that
the Germans were "not taking the bait, and are flanking us"... At that
point, if you looked down at the end of the street, you see what
appears to be a Panther (PzKmpfwgn V) moving in profile toward the
defender's right flank.
3. The Germans bring in two other AFVs down the main street
other than the Tigers... They appeared to be open-carriaged SPGs, or
at least open-backed, since you could see the gun crews from above,
and since they were very vulnerable to the Molotov cocktails... For
the life of me, I can NOT identify what those vehicles were...
Could someone help me identify those two vehicles? Were they
SPG's? I DON'T think they were Panthers, or any Panzers that I'm
familiar with... Could they have been (unfortunate) mock-ups of
non-existent vehicles--some kind of hybrid that never existed?
I have some personal guesses, which may very well be wrong...
Possiblity 1: They were Marders (Martens)...Certainly, the
gun over-hung the front of the vehicle... However, I always thought
that Marders were relegated to the Eastern Front, and did not appear
on the Western Front.
Possiblity 2: They were PzIIA LRPS vehicles ("Schleppers"),
armed with either 105 or 150 mm guns (more common variants of the
"Wespe" or "Hummel")... However, the guns I saw looked longer and
narrower--like the long-barreled 75mm AT gun which the Marder
carried...
Possiblity 2.5: Where they Panthers? No way! Panthers were
not open topped ! Plus, those two just didn't have the right profiles
at all...
Possiblity 3: A GW38 SPG used in support of infantry? I
STRONGLY doubt this, since the profile just didn't match at all...
Possiblity 4: Some kind of contemporaneous hybrid vehicle the
Germans built then, and put on either a Pz II, Pz III, or Pz 38
chassis...
Possiblity 5: I'm beginning to gravitate toward this, as a
backup option after the Marder, but it just doesn't seem right,
either...Could they have been JgPz Nashorns ("Rhinos") with the
extra-long 88 gun? I didn't think the gun was that long in the movie,
though...
I'm sorry--maybe I'm getting blind or stupid or something, but
for the life of me I just COULDN'T identify those second vehicles.
If anyone could help be with this, I would be very
appreciative. Please respond with either an email to my address:
sco...@ucr.campus.mci.net OR with a followup here to this post. I
thank any and all responses in advance.
Other aside observations:
1. Recall that the mission to save Pvt Ryan happened on the
15'th of June, 1944--more than a week after D-Day... So by then, it
would be entirely possible for US troops to have run into Panthers and
Tigers...
2. It would have been interesting if Speilberg could shown
some more the type of fighting that occurred in the hedgerows of the
bocage... Recall that on about the second week after D-Day, one German
Tiger I in a well defended lane between hedgerows was credited with
killing 40 (!!!!) allied tanks (either Shermans or Cromwells or some
combination) before it was taken out by airstrike...
3. It would have been intriguing if some of the Waffen SS
troops were shown using the newer MP-43 assault rifle (the world's
first true assault rifle) with banana clips, and showing how
devastating the weapon was... It would also have been intriguing
actually showing a Sherman vs Panther or Tiger action, and
demonstrating just how impotent the Sherman was (and just why American
troops really feared Tigers in particular)...
By the way, an off the wall question: Where would Spielberg
et al. actually get the AFV's for the film (or any such film)--from
the Aberdeen Proving Grounds? I know that Tigers and Soviet T-34 / 85
tanks can still be "picked up" in some Middle Eastern or African
nations (at least a decade ago or so--still being used as cheaper,
3'rd World Armor), and certainly the movie "Stalingrad" showed us some
T-34 / 76 tanks--but how about Pz IVs and Panthers? Can they be
"found" anywhere anymore, or are they effectively extinct?
Inquiring minds need to know! Thanks again for any help in
advance!
Scott Begg
Steve Ewing
Scott Begg wrote in message <6psrle$n32$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
>
> Hello, there!
>
> I had a question from the movie Saving Private Ryan, which I
>saw last week...
>
> During the last battle, Captain Miller's ad hoc detail has to
>defend a village and keep German units from crossing a bridge (one of
>the few non-interdicted bridges in that region), and if need be, to
>actually destroy the bridge.
>
Snip questions and hypotheses for brevity.
By my best guess, the German AFV's were all based on a T-34 chassis. I''m
going off of the suspension, tracks, and placement of road wheels. I think
we can all agree that the closed vehicles were supposed to be Tigers. The
open-topped vehicles reminded me strongly of Marders. What they were
supposed to be is something I can't tell you. And I believe the Sherman at
the end was an M4a1, judging mostly from the applique armor on the hull
side. I'm a little miffed about the P-51 "tankbusters" that were completely
clean, but I'll take what I can get.
I read Max Hastings' "Das Reich" many years ago, and although I can't find
it at the moment, I'm convinced that he listed the Panzer vehicles of Das
Reich as 62 Panthers and 64 Pz. IV's. Can anyone confirm whether he said
that, and whether he was right?
Did anyone else think that the BAR spent an awful lot of time with an open
bolt? And was it me, or did the M1 thumb seem well represented?
I believe that the emplacement they opened up and flamed from the rear, at
the beach, was supposed to be a Type 685 casemate. Anyone confirm/deny
this?
Incidentally, lest it sound like I'm griping, I think SPR moved immediately
into my top 4 war movies of all time.
Steve Ewing
News
Aberdeen Proving Grounds. I was just there last week and several Vehicles
were abscent from the field. Most notably the Tiger and King Tiger which
were featured in a postcard I purchased from the museum giftshop. However
the two Panthers were there just one was painted differently that the one in
the postcard.
Bruce Burden
News (ne...@home.net) wrote:
:
: It is entirely possible that the tanks in the movie were 'borrowed' from The
: Aberdeen Proving Grounds. I was just there last week and several Vehicles
: were abscent from the field. Most notably the Tiger and King Tiger which
:
The Tiger I is in Germany, where it has been restored. It
will NOT be returned until a suitable storage and display area
has been created for it (thankfully).
The Tiger II in now at the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor,
Ft. Knox, Kentucky. It is not, to my knowledge, a runner. The
folks at Ft. Knox have done a very good job of cleaning the
vehicle up, but it still lacks plenty of armor on the drivers
side where it was cut open to serve as a training/familiarization
aid.
Several other vehicles are missing due to incompetent
"leadership" at the museum in the past, other vehicles have been
removed to storage areas before they are in such a condition
that moving them means risking their destruction, which is the
case of the Mk IV at Aberdeen.
Bruce
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I like bad!" Bruce Burden Austin, TX.
- Thuganlitha
The Power and the Prophet
Robert Don Hughes
Jay
> The troops set up an ambush, and the sharpshooter climbs to
>the top of the tower and signals back to the Captain what AFVs and
>troops the Germans have... If I remember correctly, he signals to the
>Captain that there were "Two Tigers, Two Panzers (sic)...(other
>stuff)..., and 30 some odd troops..." Given that US troops at that
>time called "Panthers" Panzers, I assumed he was identifying Panther
>tanks as the second AFVs...
He ID'd "panzer tanks." Don't read any more into it that that. US
troops called anything that wasn't a Tiger a Panzer, and they called
most tanks Tigers (no matter what they were).
> 1. There were two Tiger IE's (PxKmpfwgn VI Ausf E)... These
>were identifiable as such, although some detail might have been off
>(note that they even had their ATMM paste adhered to the armor!)
They were dressed up. I think they were T-34/85s, based on the
position of the turret and the details of the running gear.
> 2. If you looked down the alley (or main street) of the
>village at the beginning of the battle, Captain Miller comments that
>the Germans were "not taking the bait, and are flanking us"... At that
>point, if you looked down at the end of the street, you see what
>appears to be a Panther (PzKmpfwgn V) moving in profile toward the
>defender's right flank.
Alot of people comment that this was a Panther. I saw a Marder. Go
figure.
> 3. The Germans bring in two other AFVs down the main street
>other than the Tigers... They appeared to be open-carriaged SPGs, or
>at least open-backed, since you could see the gun crews from above,
>and since they were very vulnerable to the Molotov cocktails... For
>the life of me, I can NOT identify what those vehicles were...
They are Marders (actually they are one Marder, used for every scene).
They seem to have had some armour added to the top of the open area of
the gun. My guess would be that this is quite possible for the times.
> Possiblity 1: They were Marders (Martens)...Certainly, the
>gun over-hung the front of the vehicle... However, I always thought
>that Marders were relegated to the Eastern Front, and did not appear
>on the Western Front.
Some appeared in Africa (Marder IIs IIRC), and they certainly saw
service in Italy.
Did the movie really cause younto observe such details? Frankly, I
found nothing that stood out like the Vikings wristwatch. There were
details that cause me to ask some questions, but nothing that causes
me to say "this is wrong."
Frankly the experience of the film was too intense for me to get tied
up in the details.
Jay
Ottawa, Ontario
Remove the wildcard when replying by email.
Doug G.
> I had a question from the movie Saving Private Ryan, which I
>saw last week...
>Snip
> 1. There were two Tiger IE's (PxKmpfwgn VI Ausf E)... These
>were identifiable as such, although some detail might have been off
>(note that they even had their ATMM paste adhered to the armor!)
The Tigers that they used were some other tank dressed (or built) up to look
like a Tiger. They Did not have the interleaved road wheels, and the Front
drive wheel was way to smooth to be that of a Tiger. Also the Traks were to
narrow. The Tiger had very wide traks.
> 3. The Germans bring in two other AFVs down the main street
>other than the Tigers... They appeared to be open-carriaged SPGs, or
>at least open-backed, since you could see the gun crews from above,
>and since they were very vulnerable to the Molotov cocktails... For
>the life of me, I can NOT identify what those vehicles were...
>
> Could someone help me identify those two vehicles? Were they
Of the other two AFV's one was deffinatly a Marder (II or III), most likely
the same one that was used in the "English Patient" if you ask me. As for
the other AVF, I think it could have been a Wespe. OR anothe Marder. I'll
have to see the movie again to tell for sure.
Doug G.
Scott Espin
of guns (artillery, anti-tank etc.) on various platforms, so they could have
been one of the many "mix and match" weapons.... but they essentially served
the same purpose as the Marders.
Scott Espin
Scott Begg
wrote:
> The troops set up an ambush, and the sharpshooter climbs to
>the top of the tower and signals back to the Captain what AFVs and
>troops the Germans have... If I remember correctly, he signals to the
>Captain that there were "Two Tigers, Two Panzers (sic)...(other
>stuff)..., and 30 some odd troops..." Given that US troops at that
>time called "Panthers" Panzers, I assumed he was identifying Panther
>tanks as the second AFVs...
> I had trouble identifying the AFVs in the film. Let me explain...
> 1. There were two Tiger IE's (PzKmpfwgn VI Ausf E)... These
>were identifiable as such, although some detail might have been off
>(note that they even had their ATMM paste adhered to the armor!)
I just went back to look at the movie a second time tonight,
and I was very much in the wrong. It turns out that those were NOT
real Tiger I tanks, but VERY good mockups... I looked very
carefully, and the front gear wheel is not elevated like in the Tiger.
Also, there were NO interleaved wheels. I could've sworn on the first
viewing that those wheels were interleaved, but on second viewing, it
was quite evident that they were not... However, the rest of the
vehicle (the driver's viewport, the hull machine gun, the vertical
buildup of armor over the front, the position of cupola, the rear view
of exhaust and Feifel air cleaning system) all seemed to be right on
the mark. It turns out that that must've been a T-34/85 chassis mocked
up (very well) to look like a Tiger... The only thing that gave it
away was the non-interleaved wheels, and I had to see the movie twice
in order to recognize that! Too bad they couldn't use a real
TigerI... Isn't there anywhere where Spielberg could have actually
obtained a REAL Tiger I?
> 2. If you looked down the alley (or main street) of the
>village at the beginning of the battle, Captain Miller comments that
>the Germans were "not taking the bait, and are flanking us"... At that
>point, if you looked down at the end of the street, you see what
>appears to be a Panther (PzKmpfwgn V) moving in profile toward the
>defender's right flank.
But I looked very carefully at that one SPG at the end of the
ally crossing in profile towards the right...Man, that looked
tantalizingly close to a Panther or a Panther mockup...But, I just
don't know anymore... hmm...
> 3. The Germans bring in two other AFVs down the main street
>other than the Tigers... They appeared to be open-carriaged SPGs, or
>at least open-backed, since you could see the gun crews from above,
>and since they were very vulnerable to the Molotov cocktails... For
>the life of me, I can NOT identify what those vehicles were...
As to the SPGs, OK... They probably could've been Marders...
I did not know that they served on the Western Front though (guess I
was wrong)...
STB
Admin
> > 1. There were two Tiger IE's (PxKmpfwgn VI Ausf E)... These
> >were identifiable as such, although some detail might have been off
> >(note that they even had their ATMM paste adhered to the armor!)
> > 2. If you looked down the alley (or main street) of the
> >village at the beginning of the battle, Captain Miller comments that
> >the Germans were "not taking the bait, and are flanking us"... At that
> >point, if you looked down at the end of the street, you see what
> >appears to be a Panther (PzKmpfwgn V) moving in profile toward the
> >defender's right flank.
> > 3. The Germans bring in two other AFVs down the main street
> >other than the Tigers... They appeared to be open-carriaged SPGs, or
> >at least open-backed, since you could see the gun crews from above,
> >and since they were very vulnerable to the Molotov cocktails... For
> >the life of me, I can NOT identify what those vehicles were...
> > Could someone help me identify those two vehicles? Were they
> >SPG's? I DON'T think they were Panthers, or any Panzers that I'm
> >familiar with... Could they have been (unfortunate) mock-ups of
> >non-existent vehicles--some kind of hybrid that never existed?
1. Tigers -- The key to the "Tigers" is the running gear -- the tracks and
bogeys. These are of obvious Soviet design -- large bogey wheels (not
overlapping like the real Tiger I) and a small one at the front. The big
giveaway is the design of the track as it comes sliding off the the front
drive wheel -- obviously Soviet. With this said, the rest of the "mockup
Tiger", especially the front glacis plate and the rear engine deck looked
great, although I'm pretty sure that the air filtering equipment (hoses and
such) were eliminated by 1944. These were definite improvements over the
ones built for "Kelly's Heros".
2. Panzers -- These appeared to be Marder III's, built on the old Czech
T-38 chassis design. These appeared to be the real McCoy! While Spielberg
is a great director, he didn't give us lengthy looks at any of these
vehicles, including the SS halftrack earlier in the film. The
Kettenkraftrad (tracked motorcycle) was real, I've seen several up close.
There are numerous WWII reenactment societies in the US now, many of them
German! The local "2nd Panzer Division" here in Illinois has 3 or 4 running
251/C or D halftracks, a Hetzer TD, and a restored 75mm StuGIII, complete
with armor skirts. It is an awesome sight. I seriously doubt whether any of
these vehicles in the film came from Aberdeen, rather from privately held
collections or these reenactment societies.
Loved the movie -- willing to overlook any flaws for the obvious gain in
detail and realism.
Lyle Hatch
Brian Derek
Bruce Burden wrote:
>
> News (ne...@home.net) wrote:
> :
> : It is entirely possible that the tanks in the movie were 'borrowed'
> from The Aberdeen Proving Grounds.
There's been much discussion here about the tanks in SPR, which leads me
to wonder why Spielberg, with his huge budget, couldn't have simply had
replicas built for the film, so that all the details would be correct?
With all the war films made over the years, doesn't *someone* have fake
tigers and panzers lying around? Sure, the modified ones 'worked', but
tanks are kind of in the same category as dinosaurs: people, esp. guys,
have always been fascinated by them, and know a lot more about them than
film-makers might think. As particular as he is about almost all other
details in his movies, I'm really surprised Spielberg didn't take more
care in such an important piece in the final battle!
Bderek
remove spam to email me
john...@istar.ca
sco...@ucr.campus.mci.net (Scott Begg) wrote:
> I just went back to look at the movie a second time tonight,
> and I was very much in the wrong. It turns out that those were NOT
> away was the non-interleaved wheels, and I had to see the movie twice
> in order to recognize that!
I quite agree that it was a most creditable mock-up. I would suggest,
however, that the thing that "gives it away" is not so much the detail
of the road-wheels (about which you are quite correct), as the overall
size of the vehicle. Given that it is based upon a T-34, the size of the
"Tiger" is basically that of a T-34.
A real Tiger would have been larger. Much, much, larger.
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john...@istar.ca
Tero P. Mustalahti
sco...@ucr.campus.mci.net (Scott Begg) wrote:
> By the way, an off the wall question: Where would Spielberg
> et al. actually get the AFV's for the film (or any such film)--from
> the Aberdeen Proving Grounds? I know that Tigers and Soviet T-34 / 85
> tanks can still be "picked up" in some Middle Eastern or African
> nations (at least a decade ago or so--still being used as cheaper,
> 3'rd World Armor),
T-34/85s, SU-100s, M4 Shermans with the 76mm gun, M3/M5 Stuarts, M36 TDs can
still be picked up in some third world countries (Stuarts especially in South
America), SU-100s and M36s were used in Bosnia as well. But Tigers? No way,
even PzKpfw IVs and StuG IIIs are relatively rare these days, and unlike
Tigers they were actually exported from Germany during and after the war.
> and certainly the movie "Stalingrad" showed us some
> T-34 / 76 tanks
The Soviet tanks in "Stalingrad" were all T-34/85s, even though they *should*
have been T-34/76s. Running T-34/76s are almost as rare as PzKpfw IVs. They
were never exported outside the USSR and most of them were destroyed already
during the war. Especially the early models are very rare.
>--but how about Pz IVs and Panthers? Can they be
> "found" anywhere anymore, or are they effectively extinct?
There are still many floating around, mostly PzKpfw IV H/J and Panther A/G
models, but most of them are not in running condition. Panther D愀 are rare as
well as early PzKpfw IV models.
Tero P. Mustalahti
Ed Walton
> There's been much discussion here about the tanks in SPR, which leads me
> to wonder why Spielberg, with his huge budget, couldn't have simply had
> replicas built for the film, so that all the details would be correct?
It would have cost more money, thus reducing the profits of the film.
Spielberg did not take a salary for this movie, but contracted with
Dreamworks SKG (in which he's a major stockholder) for a percentage of the
profits. He had to keep the budget down to make sure he maximized his
personal return. Since only a couple thousand WW2 fanatics out of the
millions who will see this movie are going to even know the difference,
why not use that money on another ski trip to St.Moritz next winter?
According to a story making the rounds, the maker of the fake Tigers was
simply the lowest bidder, even though others offered much more realism for
only a couple thousand more bucks.
--
Ed Walton
Visit the "Lost Battalions" homepage
Reproduction WW2 Uniforms
http://web2.airmail.net/recon36/
Mark A. Serafin
: The Soviet tanks in "Stalingrad" were all T-34/85s, even though they *should*
: have been T-34/76s. Running T-34/76s are almost as rare as PzKpfw IVs. They
: were never exported outside the USSR and most of them were destroyed already
: during the war. Especially the early models are very rare.
Well, I know the Russians have some. I remember seeing footage
from the 1985 parade to mark the 40th anniversary of the end of WWII, and
nearly feel out of my chair when I saw a company of T34/76s (model 1943)
in pristine condition rolling through Red Square.
The question is, where are they now?
--
Mark Serafin | "Imagine you were an idiot. Now imagine you
I speak only for myself | were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
| - Mark Twain
JTV
> The Soviet tanks in "Stalingrad" were all T-34/85s, even though they *should*
> have been T-34/76s. Running T-34/76s are almost as rare as PzKpfw IVs. They
> were never exported outside the USSR and most of them were destroyed already
> during the war. Especially the early models are very rare.
This is not totally correct. I remember german book about East-German
tanks ("Panzer aus NVA" or something like that). My german isn't very
fluent, but it certainly told about T-34/76 tanks that had been
in East-German use during 1950's. It allso had very detailed
information.
For example blueprints of all vehicles, exact number of vehicles and
accurate information of all equipment (for example all sighting systems,
engines, driving equipment and etc.) were presented.
So Soviet quite clearly exported some T-34/76s to their new allies
after WWII.
JTV
Chiggie Red Baron
<mjma...@joker.igs.net> writes
>sco...@ucr.campus.mci.net (Scott Begg) wrote:
>> The troops set up an ambush, and the sharpshooter climbs to
>>the top of the tower and signals back to the Captain what AFVs and
>>troops the Germans have... If I remember correctly, he signals to the
>>Captain that there were "Two Tigers, Two Panzers (sic)...(other
>>stuff)..., and 30 some odd troops..." Given that US troops at that
>>time called "Panthers" Panzers, I assumed he was identifying Panther
>>tanks as the second AFVs...
>He ID'd "panzer tanks." Don't read any more into it that that. US
>troops called anything that wasn't a Tiger a Panzer, and they called
>most tanks Tigers (no matter what they were).
>> 1. There were two Tiger IE's (PxKmpfwgn VI Ausf E)... These
>>were identifiable as such, although some detail might have been off
>>(note that they even had their ATMM paste adhered to the armor!)
>They were dressed up. I think they were T-34/85s, based on the
>position of the turret and the details of the running gear.
Looking like the T-34's dressed up as 'Tigers' in Kelly's Heroes? You
could tell they weren't Tigers because the turret was set too far
forward and the wheels were obviously T-34-like.
>> 2. If you looked down the alley (or main street) of the
>>village at the beginning of the battle, Captain Miller comments that
>>the Germans were "not taking the bait, and are flanking us"... At that
>>point, if you looked down at the end of the street, you see what
>>appears to be a Panther (PzKmpfwgn V) moving in profile toward the
>>defender's right flank.
>Alot of people comment that this was a Panther. I saw a Marder. Go
>figure.
See comments below.
>> 3. The Germans bring in two other AFVs down the main street
>>other than the Tigers... They appeared to be open-carriaged SPGs, or
>>at least open-backed, since you could see the gun crews from above,
>>and since they were very vulnerable to the Molotov cocktails... For
>>the life of me, I can NOT identify what those vehicles were...
>They are Marders (actually they are one Marder, used for every scene).
>They seem to have had some armour added to the top of the open area of
>the gun. My guess would be that this is quite possible for the times.
>> Possiblity 1: They were Marders (Martens)...Certainly, the
>>gun over-hung the front of the vehicle... However, I always thought
>>that Marders were relegated to the Eastern Front, and did not appear
>>on the Western Front.
>Some appeared in Africa (Marder IIs IIRC), and they certainly saw
>service in Italy.
AFAIK there weren't any Marders in Normandy, either the II's or the two
species of III's (one with a mid mounted gun overhanging the front end,
and the other mounting it at the back end).
Most Panzer Regiments (Heer) had attached Panzerjager abteilungs
composed of StuGs or Jagdpanzer IV's. There was an independent
Jagdpanther unit (schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 654).
SS-Panzer Regiments 1 and 2 had attached StuG-Abteilungs. 9 & 10 did
not. SS-Pz Rgt.12 had Jagdpanzer IV's, while SS-Pz-Abt.17 had StuGs.
Some of the Grenadier Divisions may have had attached Abteilungs with
Marders, there is a photo of a Marder II 'somewhere in France' (but
where and when?)
>Did the movie really cause younto observe such details? Frankly, I
>found nothing that stood out like the Vikings wristwatch. There were
>details that cause me to ask some questions, but nothing that causes
>me to say "this is wrong."
I've always looked at the hardware when watching war films, doesn't
matter if they're good or bad.
>Frankly the experience of the film was too intense for me to get tied
>up in the details.
--
The Chiggie Red Baron
"Tough to follow a dog act."
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