Gun/Turret Funny Names
Barry Lake
It is amazing what people in the ng know, so here's one. BISMARK followed
German practise lettering turrets A to D from fore to aft. I remember in
the book, the good Baron says they were named Anton, Bruno, Caesar, and ?.
Did other German ships do this?
The British letter system worked from both ends so a four turret ship would
have A, B, X, and Y.( what happened to Z anyway?) A fifth in the middle
would be Q for some reason. Don't know what the Germans called Q in their
5 gun DD's. The USN seems to just number them fore to aft but what about
the 5 gun Fletchers? Did the RN give their turrets funny names? The
Canadian cruiser ONTARIO had names for the three guns in Y turret ( Yvette,
Yvonne,and Yolanda) but not a turret name. Any other examples?
Oliver Weber
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In the article " Gun/Turret Funny Names ", "Barry Lake"
<bfl...@coastnet.com> wrote on 4 Jan 1998 20:00:42 GMT:
>It is amazing what people in the ng know, so here's one. BISMARK followed
>German practise lettering turrets A to D from fore to aft.
Which BTW only applies to a ships main armament.
>I remember in
>the book, the good Baron says they were named Anton, Bruno, Caesar, and ?.
>Did other German ships do this?
D should be Dora. Nothing "funny" about it, seems to be the standard German
phonetic alphabet (Buchstabieralphabet), you know, like Alfa, Bravo and so
on.
>The British letter system worked from both ends so a four turret ship would
>have A, B, X, and Y.( what happened to Z anyway?) A fifth in the middle
>would be Q for some reason. Don't know what the Germans called Q in their
>5 gun DD's.
Not sure about it, but it should be 'C'. The turret astern is 'E' then -
"Emil".
Yours,
Oliver O-
(Otto Ludwig Ida Viktor Emil Richard :-)
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efr...@msuvx2.memphis.edu
In article <68oppa$ggs$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>, "Barry Lake" <bfl...@coastnet.com> writes:
> It is amazing what people in the ng know, so here's one. BISMARK followed
> German practise lettering turrets A to D from fore to aft. I remember in
> the book, the good Baron says they were named Anton, Bruno, Caesar, and ?.
Dora, probably.
> Did other German ships do this?
I suspect so, but will defer to a real expert.
Ed Frank
Andrew Jarman
>the book, the good Baron says they were named Anton, Bruno, Caesar, and ?.
Dora, Emil, Friedrich, Gustav and so on according to their phonetic
alphabet.
>Did other German ships do this?
>The British letter system worked from both ends so a four turret ship would
>have A, B, X, and Y.( what happened to Z anyway?) A fifth in the middle
>would be Q for some reason.
And sometimes P if there were two central turrets.
Don't know what the Germans called Q in their
>5 gun DD's. The USN seems to just number them fore to aft but what about
>the 5 gun Fletchers? Did the RN give their turrets funny names? The
>Canadian cruiser ONTARIO had names for the three guns in Y turret ( Yvette,
>Yvonne,and Yolanda) but not a turret name. Any other examples?
H.M.S. Agincourt (1914) had seven turrets and against all convention they
were named
after the days of the week.
Andrew Jarman
Jay Martino
"Barry Lake" <bfl...@coastnet.com> wrote:
>It is amazing what people in the ng know, so here's one. BISMARK followed
>German practise lettering turrets A to D from fore to aft. I remember in
>the book, the good Baron says they were named Anton, Bruno, Caesar, and ?.
Dora.
>Did other German ships do this?
I think it was standard German practice.
>The British letter system worked from both ends so a four turret ship would
>have A, B, X, and Y.( what happened to Z anyway?) A fifth in the middle
>would be Q for some reason.
Actually, any turret aft of "B" but forward of "X" was called "Q."
Case in point is the WWII Dido-class AA cruiser, with (originally) 5
turrets, three forward (A, B and Q) and two aft (X and Y). I have no
idea why there was no Z. Probably some esoteric RN tradition.
> Don't know what the Germans called Q in their
>5 gun DD's. The USN seems to just number them fore to aft but what about
>the 5 gun Fletchers?
I think both just stuck to sequential lettering/numbering.
> Did the RN give their turrets funny names?
Well, that depends on your definition of "funny." The only one I
recall is HMS Agincourt of WWI. She had seven twin 12" turrets which
were never lettered. They were named for days of the week (Monday
foremost, Sunday aft IIRC).
>The
>Canadian cruiser ONTARIO had names for the three guns in Y turret ( Yvette,
>Yvonne,and Yolanda) but not a turret name.
I think the guns in the other turrets were also named, with
appropriate first letters to match the turret. I don't know if this
was a common practice.
Jay
"Life. Hate it or loath it, you can't ignore it".
Remove the * from the "reply to:' field when replying
by e-mail.
Barry Lake
Oliver Weber explained what I thought were nicknames of the German lettered
turrets were really their German phonetic alphabet "names." Well, that
explains a lot! Now I know why the 109G was a "Gustaf" which I always
thought was a nickname.
I was thinking this was like "Big Bertha" and" Anzio Annie" but I guess
those were just "our" names. Didn't the Germans have a name for that big
gun they used in the Crimea? My topic was navy but I guess we are allowed
to expand a bit. I am after what the gunners called their own guns though.
Like people used to call their Volkswagons "Herbie" or "Herman." Then I am
wondering if a tendency to give a gun a nickname has anything to do with
the army putting crests on them so they had the status of battle flags you
weren't supposed to lose to the enemy. Even A-Bombs had names.
The allied (or was it just the American?) English language phonetic
alphabet used in WW2 - able baker charlie dog etc was changed in 1956 (I
think) to today' s "international" version alpha bravo charlie delta etc.
so do the Germans still have their own? Also whatever do or did the
Japanese do!? And the Russians? Its all Greek to me.
Richard H. Miller
Barry Lake (bfl...@coastnet.com) wrote:
[snip]
: The British letter system worked from both ends so a four turret ship would
: have A, B, X, and Y.( what happened to Z anyway?) A fifth in the middle
: would be Q for some reason. Don't know what the Germans called Q in their
: 5 gun DD's. The USN seems to just number them fore to aft but what about
: the 5 gun Fletchers? Did the RN give their turrets funny names? The
: Canadian cruiser ONTARIO had names for the three guns in Y turret ( Yvette,
: Yvonne,and Yolanda) but not a turret name. Any other examples?
The British letter system was developed prior to wwi. If you look back
at some of the early Dreadnaught BBs you will see many of them included
wing turrets, midship turrets and the like.
I believe it went A,B,C for the three forward centerline turrets and X,Y,Z
for the three aft centerline turrets so by wwii when most ships had only
3 or four turrets then you would only see A,B and X or Y. (I have no idea
why the aft turrets did not start with Z).
As far as the USN was concerned, I believe for turrets (8" and above) they
may have used the same nomenclature as the British.
However, the 5" guns were not placed in turrets but in mounts so IIRC the
nomenclature was mount 51 through mount 55. I do not recall if the 6" guns
on the light cruisers were mounts or turrets.
Rob Davis
Remove MAPSON if replying via email
> It is amazing what people in the ng know, so here's one. BISMARK followed
> German practise lettering turrets A to D from fore to aft. I remember in
> the book, the good Baron says they were named Anton, Bruno, Caesar, and ?.
Dora, according to Ballard, who frequently quotes the Baron.
> what happened to Z anyway?
Ah, this was obviously the mid-under turret <g>
Rob Davis MSc MIAP
Anstey, Leicester UK. 0976 379489
abuse@localhost, postmaster@localhost
Hillbrath
Barry Lake wrote:
> Oliver Weber explained what I thought were nicknames of the
> German lettered turrets were really their German phonetic
> alphabet "names." Well, that explains a lot!
But, not everything. It does explain why the "aircraft in Dambusters raid
[were]: A-Apple B-Baker C-Charlie E-Easy F-Freddie G-George H-Harry J-Johnny
K-King L-Leather (officially L-London) M-Mother N-Nuts O-Orange P-Popsie
S-Sugar T-Tommy W-Willie Y-York Z-Zebra"
> Now I know why the 109G was a "Gustaf"
> which I always thought was a nickname.
and, "Emil" too.
> I was thinking this was like "Big Bertha" and" Anzio Annie"
> but I guess those were just "our" names.
and, not surprisingly, our names seldom corresponded to the German ones.
The U. S. closely copied the 280 mm railway gun, of which " Anzio Annie" was an
example. The one at Aberdeen PG was called "Leopold."
> Didn't the Germans have a name for that big gun they used
> in the Crimea?
Yes, they did.
Several, in fact, apparently for the same gun. "Dora" and "Gustav" IIRC. and,
AFAIK, these *were* nicknames, and had nothing to do with the phonetic
alphabet.
[snip]
> Even A-Bombs had names.
some of them
> The allied (or was it just the American?)
The English have had their own, in various forms, since some time in the last
century.
> English language
> phonetic alphabet used in WW2 - able baker charlie dog etc was
> changed in 1956 (I think) to today' s "international" version alpha
> bravo charlie delta etc. so do the Germans still have their own?
"Anton Berta Caesar Dora Emil Friedrich Gustav Heinrich Ida
Julius Karl Ludwig Martha Nordpol Otto Paula Quelle Richard
Siegfried Theodor Ulrich Viktor Wilhelm Xanthippe Ypsilon
Zeppelin"
> Also whatever do or did the Japanese do!?
Beats me. Actually, if they were referring to the Latin alphabet, they
probably would now use the NATO alphabet, I think.
> And the Russians?
"Aleksej Boris Vasilij Grigorij Dmitrij Elena Zhenja Zoya
Ivan Ivan_Kratkij Kilowatt Leonid Maria Nikolai Olga Pavel
Roman Sergej Tatjana Uljana Fjodor Hariton Zaplja Chelovek
Shura Schuka Tviordiy_Znak Igrek Miagkiy_Znak Emilija Yuri
Jakow"
[the order is different, as is the number of letters, because, that is for
Cyrillic, which is what works for the Russians.]
< Its all Greek to me.
"Ale'xandros Vasi'lios Geo'rgios Deme'trios Ele'ne Zoe'
Erakle's Theo'doros Ioa'nnes Konstanti'nos Leoni'das
Mene'laos Niko'laos Xenofo'n Odusse'as Perikle's Ro'dos
Sote'rios Timole'on Upsela'ntes Fo'tios Chre'stos Psa'ltes
Ome'ga" [same comment, except "Greek."]
Check out a truly incredible piece of work at:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/bck1/menu.html
or
http://www.mindspring.com/~gwil/phon.menu.html
those are quotes above. another quote:
"There is a widely known alphabet Alpha Bravo ... Yankee Zulu.
Such alphabets are variously known as phonetic/radio/
spelling/telephone alphabets, and the term analogy alphabet
is also used. This collection currently includes alphabets
for the following languages:
English, French, German, Dutch, Flemish, Spanish,
Portuguese, Italian, Romansh, Danish, Norwegian,
Swedish, Finnish, Czech, Slovak, Polish, Hungarian,
Croatian, Serbo-Croat, Romanian, Turkish, Hebrew,
Russian, Swahili, Kwanyama, Ndonga, Afrikaans,
Chinese and Esperanto."
Anything else?
Henry Hillbrath
PDC Sensha
The Japanese approach was to give each turret a number, i.e. "Number 1 Turret".
The reason for this is that there is, strictly speaking, no Japanese alphabet.
They do put things in order like we do (indexes in books, for example), but
they use a poem to do so.
From my work in progress on the Japanese armored force, titled Sensha (and with
my apologies for whatever spacing problems the UseNet system introduces to the
indentations in same:
"While most nations settle for catchy names like Stuart or Cromwell or a
rational numbering system like M13/40 or T 34/76, the contrary Japanese chose
to take the poetry route for their armored fighting vehicles.
The root of names like Chi-ha and Ke-go lie within the intricate structure of
the Japanese system of written expression. Where Westerners use their ABCs (or
a close approximation thereof), the Japanese have no ready-made native alphabet
to "keep things in order". In order to make such things as book indexes and
outlines possible in such a language, the hiragana and katakana syllabaries
were cleverly arranged in a mnenoic pattern known as the I-Ro-Ha.
A romanization of the poem runs like this:
Iro wa nioedo
Chirinuru o
Waga yo tare zo
Tsune naran
Ui no okuyama
Kyo kotete
Asaki yume miji
Ei mo sezu
with each of the kana represented thusly:
I-ro ha ni-ho-he-to
Chi-ri-nu-ru (w)o
Wa-ka yo ta-re so
Tsu-ne na-ra-mu
U-(w)i no o-ku-ya-ma
Ke-fu ko-e-te
A-sa-ki yu-me mi-shi
(W)e-hi mo se-su
Based upon a poem expressing the Buddhist view on the transitory nature of
life, a roughly literal paraphase runs something like:
Colors are fragrant, but they fade away,
In this world of ours none lasts forever;
Today cross the high mountain of life's illusions,
and there will be no more shallow dreaming, no more
drunkenness.
This all relates to Japanese armored vehicles (honest) in the following
fashion:
Japanese armored vehicle names were taken from one of the syllables of the
words for the type of vehicle combined with a syllable from the I-Ro-Ha
arrangement representing the vehicle's place in the progression of that type.
For example:
The third medium tank model proposed or adopted (the ubiquitous Type 97) takes
its name from the first syllable of "medium" (Chugata , which for some
bizarre Oriental reason is reduced to Chi ) combined with the third syllable
from the I-Ro-Ha system (Ha ); hence Chi-ha
Other common prefixes: Ke - for light tanks from Kei (light)
Ho - for self-propelled guns,
from Ho
(cannon)
So - for anti-tank gun carriers, from
Sokusahho (rapid
fire gun)
Ka - for amphibious vehicles, from
Naikatei (launch)
Ho - for personnel carriers, from Shoko
Heisha (armored chariot), changing Hei to
Ho (once again, go figure)
One major exception to the above system is the common name for the Type 95
light tank. Officially known as Ke-Go , most publications refer to this
vehicle as the Ha-Go , from an internal Mitsubishi code name assigned during
preliminary development and testing. For some reason, the official designation
fell by the wayside while the company moniker was picked up everyone, even by
the Allied intelligence agencies. Also seen on occasion is the name Kyu-Go.
All are listed in any comprehensive English source in an attempt to minimize
the confusion."
This bit of obscurity may explain why "Japanese" was omitted from the earlier
list...
Jay Martino
hill...@aol.com (Hillbrath) wrote:
>"Aleksej Boris Vasilij Grigorij Dmitrij Elena Zhenja Zoya
>Ivan Ivan_Kratkij Kilowatt Leonid Maria Nikolai Olga Pavel
>Roman Sergej Tatjana Uljana Fjodor Hariton Zaplja Chelovek
>Shura Schuka Tviordiy_Znak Igrek Miagkiy_Znak Emilija Yuri
>Jakow"
You use a different transliteration (the "j" vice "y" Is a German one,
I think). Is this the actual Russian phonetic alphabet?
Hillbrath
Jay Martino wrote:
>>"Aleksej Boris Vasilij Grigorij Dmitrij Elena Zhenja Zoya
>>Ivan Ivan_Kratkij Kilowatt Leonid Maria Nikolai Olga Pavel
>>Roman Sergej Tatjana Uljana Fjodor Hariton Zaplja Chelovek
>>Shura Schuka Tviordiy_Znak Igrek Miagkiy_Znak Emilija Yuri
>>Jakow"
>You use a different transliteration (the "j" vice "y" Is a German one,
>I think).
It is very hard to please everyone. In fact, it is hard enough pleasing
*anyone.*
As I said in my message, I got this from one of the URL's I cited. Each and
every letter of that was cut and pasted from the original.
There is no "j" in Russian, but there are two "i's." Depending on how you look
at it, there is no standard, or too many standards, ("The nice thing about
standards is that there are so many, everyone can have one of his or her own.")
for how to transliterate the one represented by "Ivan_Kratkij."
In American "English" I think it is more common to use "i" for both "Ivan" and
"Ivan_Kratkij" so that the very common combination, "Ivan Ivan_Kratkij" is
"ii." Some people use "j" for "Ivan_Kratkij", which has some logic, as "j" is
otherwise not much used in Russian transliteration. But, using "j" for "Jakow"
blows me away, as I have never seen "Yalta" as "Jalta."
I think the source for this transliteration is British, and, we all *know*
about the Brits.
>Is this the actual Russian phonetic alphabet?
this is a good example of the common misconception that there exists "the"
phonetic alphabet for any language, or that NATO, or anyone, can get rid of an
old one by issuing a new one. I do not know how official the one given is, but,
I have seen the same, or similar ones in various sources. Also, the Russians
seem very sensitive about anything that exists in the west, and go to some
trouble to make sure they have the same, whether they need it or not. Several
Russians have told me that they have no need of a phonetic alphabet, since they
can pronounce the letters so there is no confusion. So, it makes perfect sense
to me that they have a phonetic alphabet, and that no one has ever actually
seen it in use.
"Ivan_Kratkij" also makes sense to me, as several Russians have also told me
that there are no Russian words that start with that letter. But, several
dictionaries that I have consulted list a few, "iodine" and "yogurt" for two.
There really are none that start with "Tviordiy_Znak", "Igrek", or
"Miagkiy_Znak." (and, the "znaks" might not even be "letters.") It is not clear
to me if they would be used in designating turrets, or not. Guess we will have
to wait for the Russians to come up with a BB with more than 26 turrets to find
out.
Henry Hillbrath
Todd Aoki
Am I doing this right? Could somebody let me know if I'm doing anything
wrong? This is my first attempt at posting a message on a news group.
The designations of the turrets you are referring to is the American and
British designation system. Forward main battery turrets are designated
A,B,C,D, etc. The aft turrets are designated X,Y,Z. The midships
turrets carry the designation Q,R,S,T. For an example of a ship with a
large number of midship turrets take a look at the WW1 battleship HMS
Agincourt. She has three midship turrets! Other letters refer to wing
turrets, ones offset from the centerline of the vessel, like in the
early British dreadnoughts like the British Bellerophon and Colossus
class battleships or the British Battlecruisers of the Invincible
class. I believe that the German turrets were named consecutively, so
the midship turret would have been called "Caesar" and the aftmost
turret "Eugen" or something like that.
By the way, I'm a grad student at the University of Hawaii;
specializing in Japanese naval history. Can anyone recommend a good
graduate program in naval history? Thanks!
Todd Aoki
gry...@lava.net
Barry Lake wrote:
> It is amazing what people in the ng know, so here's one. BISMARK followed
> German practise lettering turrets A to D from fore to aft. I remember in
> the book, the good Baron says they were named Anton, Bruno, Caesar, and ?.
> Did other German ships do this?
Jay Martino
hill...@aol.com (Hillbrath) wrote:
>It is very hard to please everyone. In fact, it is hard enough pleasing
>*anyone.*
Sorry, I just don't often see that transliteration. Maybe I should
have said more than that simple statement.
>It is not clear
>to me if they would be used in designating turrets, or not. Guess we will have
>to wait for the Russians to come up with a BB with more than 26 turrets to find
>out.
I wonder what they actually did use to designate turrets.
As for the phonetic alphabet, they probably do need one, since some
letters have similar pronunciations (frex: "b", "g" and "d," even ).
witsie/ken mckelvy
The following phonetic alphabet is taken form the USN's training course
for Signalman 3/c, 1940 edition.
Affirmative, Baker, Cast, Dog, Easy, Fox, George, Hypo,
Interrogatory, Jig, King, Love, Mike, Negative, Option,
Preparatory, Queen, Roger, Sail, Tare, Unit, Victor,
William, Xray, Yoke, Zed
I would think that the use of words that are often operative in communi-
cations would be confusing when used in a phonetic alphabet
(Affirmative,
Interrogative, Negative, and Preparatory). Does show source of the
names/designators used for naval intelligence centers Cast (Cavite) and
Hypo (Hawaii). For the Brit/Commonwealth readers, Zed must be the only
time Americans got it right.
Ken McKelvy