Panzer Late War Camouflage

[Bob Peterson]

I would like to know, by the time of the Ardennes offensive, did all
panzer units have camouflage paint schemes? Were there any toward the
end of the war that had a simple one color finish (other than whitewash
snow camo)?

Thanks,

Bob

[M.Rapier]

In article <56i9v2$g...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, bobp...@ix.netcom.com says...

Yes, towards the end of the war, it was common for new vehicles to have an
overall finish in Panzer Grey (a dark bluey grey), as well as the more
familiar sand based undercoat with camo patterns in green & brown, and the
more esoteric 'Reichswald' finishes etc. Panzer Grey was the colour applied to
early panzers in the 1930s and early 40s as well.

Crews often repainted their vehicles to fit in with their surroundings anyway,
although german AFV losses were running at such a rate at this stage of the
war, that I doubt if many survived long enough to have more than one or two
changes of colour scheme.

Cheers.
Martin.

[Jan de Boer]

In article <56i9v2$g...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>,

Bob Peterson <bobp...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>I would like to know, by the time of the Ardennes offensive, did all
>panzer units have camouflage paint schemes? Were there any toward the
>end of the war that had a simple one color finish (other than whitewash
>snow camo)?

If your interest is wider than the above mentioned instance, get a hold of
"Panzer Colours" by Bruce Culver and Bill Murphy, and/or "Panzer Colours II &
III" by Bruce Culver. You will find a lot of answers there.

By the end of the war the official base colour for vehicles still was "Dark
Yellow". (order HM 1943, no. 181, dated febr. 18th 1943)

There were official guidelines on how to apply other colours over the base
coat (red-brownish and olive greenish shades). But in the field anything a
unit could get its hands on was used (even mud), depending on spare time and
availability.
At the front, sometimes thousands of miles from Germany, paint too was in very
short supply, ammunition and gasoline had a much higher priority. The result
was total anarchy in camouflage schemes and colours, regulated at all levels
within the division, or not regulated at all.
Paint supply AND TIME became so scarce that near the end of the war vehicles
remained Dark Grey, the colour they had as they rolled out of the factory.

(Opnions differ on wether or not this was official, but I have never seen
the number of the alleged field order)

Over this dark grey coat the other shades were applied (if paint and time were
at hand) sometimes with great care and uniformity, sometimes very roughly with
brush, mobs, brooms or even hands.

You will find that elite formations got more paints than others, due to their
status.
For example some SS-formations had very uniform, intricate colourschemes (they
could afford the time and effort). Other formations did whatever they could
and sometimes no two vehicles in a platoon were alike.
There were also great variations in shade, due to more or less dilution of the
paints, what factory it came from and how it was applied.

I know this may not seem like much of an answer, but in fact it was chaos, all
extremes could be found.

Hope this helps,

JdB

[Mark A. Serafin]

Bob Peterson (bobp...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: I would like to know, by the time of the Ardennes offensive, did all
: panzer units have camouflage paint schemes? Were there any toward the
: end of the war that had a simple one color finish (other than whitewash
: snow camo)?

Before 1943, most German vehicles come from the factory in a basic
dark grey. In about 1942 multi-color schemes start showing up, with sand
and dark green being used.

In 1943 German vehicles started coming from the factory in a basic
color of dark yellow. Red brown and dark olive green paints were issued
for in-the-field camo painting.

Camo in the German army was common, but rarely very uniform. The
vehicles might have similar schemes across a unit (battalion) if they had
just been rebuilt and issued new vehicles. Many German units in the
Ardennes might have fit this description (I recall a photo of a Tiger II
battalion on parade before the Bulge, and they have similar schemes). But
more often directions on camo in a unit were vague or issued at lower
levels of command (platoon commanders), so there would be variation within
a battalion or company. And most camo schemes were probably applied only
when it was possible, and with whatever colors were available, using
whatever tools were available (spray painters or mops). There would be a
proportion of vehicles that were a single color, usually the base dark
yellow, because they were replacement vehicles just arrived, and there
hadn't been time to paint them.

Also note that in late '44 some German vehicles began to
appear in the early war dark grey scheme. IIRC, it was felt that it
blended better with the heavily urbanized terrain of western europe.

Hope this helps.

--
Mark Serafin | "Reality must take precedence over public
I speak only for myself | relations. Nature cannot be fooled."
| - Richard Feynman

[bruce burden]

Mark A. Serafin (mser...@coho.halcyon.com) wrote:

: Before 1943, most German vehicles come from the factory in a basic

: dark grey. In about 1942 multi-color schemes start showing up, with sand
: and dark green being used.

:
I don't recall dark-green (olivgrun) being a factory
color. Saharagelb (a brownish yellow) was specified for DAK
vehicles. In fact, plivgrun isn't listed as a factory base
color until 11/31/44, and was in effect until early 45.
:
: Camo in the German army was common, but rarely very uniform. The
:
Factory applied camo was in effect from 8/19/44 until
10/31/44, when shortages forced a directive to red-oxide
primer as the base.

Field applied camo (2/43 - 8/19/44) was not at all
uniform. Unlike the US/British armies, who had engineer
units that painted vehicles, the Panzer crews did their
own painting. The colors as well were very non-standard,
as the camo paint was suppled as a paste, which was then
thinned preferably with gasoline, but would accept water,
oil, vodka, etc. The resultant colors, and the durabality
thereof, was widespread, from "spot on" to faded-to-hell-
where-it-wasn't-worn-off.
:
: Also note that in late '44 some German vehicles began to

: appear in the early war dark grey scheme. IIRC, it was felt that it
: blended better with the heavily urbanized terrain of western europe.

:
No documentation has been found to officialize this
statement. Currently, it is felt that this is a case of
incorrect photo intrepretation, confusion with "home front"
vehicles (which were, apparently, painted Panzer Grey.
This normally applied to transport vehicles) and wishful
thinking.

See the articles about German AFV colors at:

http://www.islandnet.com/~paulie/index.html

Much of the information for these articles is based on
Tom Jentz work, which can be found in "Panther: Germany's
Quest for Armor Supremacy".

Now, before you start clammoring that Panzer Grey
made a return based on books like "Panzer Colors" (which
are 20 odd years old), or color photos, I will say that
it IS possible some late war AFV's were painted Panzer Grey.
However, again, no documentation has been found to make
this an official policy. One need only look over the changes
in Luftwaffe colors to see the effects of on-going research,
and as for color photos, color dies shift due to aging.
The amount of shift based on how well the film was stored
and what the film type is to start with, and the processing.
And, after 50+ years, veterans memories are also suspect.

Bruce
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Burden bru...@eden.com Austin, Tx.

"I like bad!"
-Thuganlitha
The Power and the Prophet

[Mark A. Serafin]

bruce burden (bru...@eden.com) wrote:

: Mark A. Serafin (mser...@coho.halcyon.com) wrote:

: : Before 1943, most German vehicles come from the factory in a basic
: : dark grey. In about 1942 multi-color schemes start showing up, with sand
: : and dark green being used.
: :
: I don't recall dark-green (olivgrun) being a factory
: color. Saharagelb (a brownish yellow) was specified for DAK
: vehicles. In fact, plivgrun isn't listed as a factory base
: color until 11/31/44, and was in effect until early 45.

I don't think the sand and dark green were factory-applied, but
were field expedients. It would probably be going out on a limb to say
that the colors used were 'official' paints issued for this purpose. More
likely they were whatever was at hand, though it seems likely that the DAK
sand color was used. Certainly _something_ was being used in Russia to
break up the solid dark grey base color.

: : : : Camo in the German army was common, but rarely very uniform. The

: :
: Factory applied camo was in effect from 8/19/44 until
: 10/31/44, when shortages forced a directive to red-oxide
: primer as the base.

So, factory-applied camo last a litle over two months? While I
can see where it would be more efficient to have the camo applied by the
factory (surprisingly efficient, given the idiosyncracies of the German
war industry), two months of production doesn't seem like it would have a
large effect on the appearance of the majority of German vehicles. Was
the red-oxide a change in the primer, or was it actually used as a base
color?

: Field applied camo (2/43 - 8/19/44) was not at all

: uniform. Unlike the US/British armies, who had engineer
: units that painted vehicles, the Panzer crews did their
: own painting. The colors as well were very non-standard,
: as the camo paint was suppled as a paste, which was then
: thinned preferably with gasoline, but would accept water,
: oil, vodka, etc. The resultant colors, and the durabality
: thereof, was widespread, from "spot on" to faded-to-hell-
: where-it-wasn't-worn-off.

This was one of my points - uniformity would have been the
exception, not the rule. I think that even units who were issued with
factory schemes would have had some vehicles that didn't match - older
vehicles still in service or returned from a repair depot.

(good discussion of the possible use of Panzer Grey in 1945
snipped)

: The amount of shift based on how well the film was stored

: and what the film type is to start with, and the processing.
: And, after 50+ years, veterans memories are also suspect.

I rhave to agree about 1940s color film being a bit suspect. Even
today you can get very different color resolution using different films.
Light conditions will also effect teh apparent color . I remember a
letter in a very old issue (1960s) of _Scale Modeller_ from two German
ex-panzer crewmen to the effect that all the spray-painted multi-color
camo schemes on the models looked cool, but they recalled their vehicles
being an overall brownish green color.

[Kennedy How]

Mark A. Serafin wrote:

> Camo in the German army was common, but rarely very uniform. The

> vehicles might have similar schemes across a unit (battalion) if they had
> just been rebuilt and issued new vehicles. Many German units in the
> Ardennes might have fit this description (I recall a photo of a Tiger II

Nobody here seems to have mentioned the German "Dappled" camo scheme.
This is where they dabble light grey dots all over the standard 3-color
camo pattern. The theory behind this is that the light dots represent
the natural light penetrating through the trees and underbrush. Most of
the books I've seen that address German camo schemes describe this, and
there are books covering the various German armored vehicles which shows
this type of pattern.

Kennedy

[M.Rapier]

In article <574pbp$m...@nina.pagesz.net>, howl...@tir.com says...

>Nobody here seems to have mentioned the German "Dappled" camo scheme.
>This is where they dabble light grey dots all over the standard 3-color
>camo pattern. The theory behind this is that the light dots represent
>the natural light penetrating through the trees and underbrush. Most of
>the books I've seen that address German camo schemes describe this, and
>there are books covering the various German armored vehicles which shows
>this type of pattern.

Well I did, though I called it 'Reichswald' camo as that was where British
units first came across large numbers of vehicles painted in such a way.

I've got some photos of JagdPz IVs (both 75L48 & 75L70 versions) painted in
this way.

I believe the original post was about the reputed resurrection of Panzergrau
in 1944/45.

Cheers.
Martin.

[lcdr...@aol.com]

>Nobody here seems to have mentioned the German "Dappled" camo scheme.
>This is where they dabble light grey dots all over the standard 3-color
>camo pattern.

I've always seen it referred to as "ambush" camo. And IIRC, the dots
weren't grey, but rather the contrasting camo color (panzer yellow dots on
green and brown, and green or brown dots on panzer yellow.)
John H. Eckhardt
It's not my spelling or grammer that's so bad. It's my typing.

[fla...@aol.com]

>This is where they dabble light grey dots all over the standard 3-color

>camo pattern. The theory behind this is that the light dots represent
>the natural light penetrating through the trees and underbrush. Most of
>the books I've seen that address German camo schemes describe this, and
>there are books covering the various German armored vehicles which shows
>this type of pattern.>

There is an individual in my central Indiana town who collects AFVs.
Sometimes he has them parked outside. This past summer, there was a German
WWII 250 APC parked underneath a tree with the three-color camo pattern.
When the sun wasn't directly shining on it, sitting underneath the tree
with all of those shadows, that camo pattern made the 250 very hard to
see.

It was parked around 1000ft from the road and even though I know where to
look, I still sometimes had a hard time finding it! I have seen very few
photos that illustrate how good the three-color camo really was. You
really must see it in action.

Mike

[Lee Russell]

I remember the "Scale Modeller" article. The ex-Panzer crewmen laughed at
late-war period dioramas showing Swastika flags used as air recognition
signs."There was no need for air recognition," they said, "We had no air!"

Another thing I read, connected with wartime photos. Someone who had seen
a WW II bone yard was surprised at the overwhelming number of plainly
marked aircraft, with only an occasional variation. Yet brightly marked
aircraft were constantly shown in markings books. He suggested that
photographers were drawn to the unusual, or the colorful, and ignored the
more common (and dull) finishes.

[Kennedy How]

lcdr...@aol.com wrote:

> I've always seen it referred to as "ambush" camo. And IIRC, the dots
> weren't grey, but rather the contrasting camo color (panzer yellow dots on
> green and brown, and green or brown dots on panzer yellow.)

Yes. For some reason, the first thing that came to mind was "dappled".

WRT grey vs other contrasting colors, this is my miniatures painting
coming to the fore (most of my ambush schemes on my micro armor use a
light grey rather than the Panzer Yellow, which was the correct color).

Kennedy