Michael Witmann tank number.
mos...@vnet.ibm.com
Hello, folks. It is the first time that i send a note to this newsgroup. I am
interested on Michael Witmann history. I want info about the Tiger I number
on Villers Bocage and the Stug III A number on Kursk battle. Thanks.
Fernando.
Merce
Hi there.
The number of Michael Wittmann's tank when he was defeated in the
Bocage, south of Caen, was 007. This was a Tiger from the batallion's
staff, instead of Tiger no. 205, which he should have been commanding
as the commander of the 2nd company.
Wittmann's company, which supported Kampfgruppe Waldmüller (1st
batallion o/t 25 Regmt. SS Panzergrenadiere), consisted of 10 Tigers.
This Kampfgruppe was also supported by 10 Jagdpantjers and some Panzer
IV's.
The story of Michael Wittmann's last battle, during operation
Totalize, and his death are very well described in the magazine 'After
the Battle: Then and Now' no. 48, and the book 'Panzers in Normandy,
Then and Now', which was published by After the Battle. You could try
the following adress for more info on theses articles:
Battle of Britain Prints International Ltd.
3 News Plaistow Road
Stratford Londen
E 154 JA
Best regards,
Merce.
************************************
* *
* email: jo...@meganet.nl *
* home: www.meganet.nl/~joek *
* alias: Mercenary *
* *
* "Life's a bitch. *
* So's my girlfriend." *
* *
************************************
Ed Walton
007 Wasn't it?
mos...@vnet.ibm.com
Hello, folks.
I am receiving replies," MIchael Wittman was a Tiger Platoon leader at Kursk,
he was no longer in Stugs ". I want to know the number of his Stug III A
during the Russian campaign. Thanks all for your info. Fernando.
M.Rapier
In article <Dz25DG.B38.4...@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>, mos...@vnet.ibm.com
says...
>Hello, folks. It is the first time that i send a note to this newsgroup. I am
>interested on Michael Witmann history. I want info about the Tiger I number
>on Villers Bocage and the Stug III A number on Kursk battle. Thanks.
>Fernando.
I'd have to check but I believe that as company commander of the 2nd company
his Tiger would have been 211 at Villers Bocage, but I believe he actually
borrowed another tank for action - I'll go and have a look at a book.
At Kursk, Wittman commanded a Tiger, he commanded a Stug III prior to that (in
1941) before taking the Tiger conversion course in 1942. Before he had a Stug,
he commanded an armoured car.
Cheers.
Martin.
bruce burden
mos...@vnet.ibm.com wrote:
: I am receiving replies," MIchael Wittman was a Tiger Platoon leader at Kursk,
: he was no longer in Stugs ". I want to know the number of his Stug III A
: during the Russian campaign. Thanks all for your info. Fernando.
:
Hello Fernando,
Check out the book "Michael Wittmann and the LSSAH"
by Patrick Agte, published in English by JJ Fedorowics,
out of Canada. Fedorowits has a web page.
If anybody has the information, i would bet on this book.
Note that it isn't a cheap book - ~98.00US,
Bruce
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Burden bru...@eden.com Austin, Tx.
"I like bad!"
-Thuganlitha
The Power and the Prophet
M.Rapier
In article <Dz25DG.B38.4...@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>, mos...@vnet.ibm.com
says...
>
>Hello, folks. It is the first time that i send a note to this newsgroup. I am
>interested on Michael Witmann history. I want info about the Tiger I number
>on Villers Bocage and the Stug III A number on Kursk battle. Thanks.
Right, I've had some time to check up on this now.
The Stug III he commanded in Russia (but not at Kursk), was nicknamed
'Buzzard' (I don't know the German for 'buzzard' though), however from looking
at the photos of both sides and the front of it, it doesn not appear to have
any discernable number.
At the Battle of Villiers bocage, Wittman commanded two Tigers, borrowing one
from HaupsturmFuhrer Mobius 1st Company before making his second foray into
the town rather than replenishing the ammo on his own.
His first attack was made in his own tank, which I thought was 201. The
pictures of the 1st company tank he used I've got only show the special
SchwerePanzerAbteilung badge and no numbers, although the vehicle is so
knocked around (it looks partially burnt out) that I can't see any numbers on
the side of the tuuret.
Cheers.
Martin.
JULR85A
Fernando,
Wittmann's Tiger that he rode to glory at Villers-Bocage in June 1944 was
number "200" meaning it belonged to the commander of the 2nd company of
the 101 Heavy Tank Battallion (101 Schweres Panzer Abteilung). After
Wittmann wiped out an entire British column almost single-handedly, Tiger
200 was eventually disabled at Villers-Bocage by a point-blank shot from a
Firefly hiding in an alleyway. Wittmann and his crew were forced to
abandon the vehicle.
Wittmann was killed not far away at Gaumesmil in August 1944 while riding
Tiger number 007, after being surrounded by at least 5 Shermans. He and
two of his crew (Rudolf Hirschel and Heinrich Reimers) were buried in an
unmarked roadside grave at the same spot of his final battle until 1981,
when the grave was discovered. The remains of the three men have been
placed in a common grave at the Soldatenfriedhof (German military
cemetary) at La Cambe (Block 47, Row 3, Grave 120).
Sorry I don't have information on vehicles used by Wittmann in the East.
Source: Panzers in Normandy Then and Now by Eric Lefevre
"Ob's stuermt oder schneidt, ob die Sonne uns lacht;
der Tag gluehend heiss, oder eis-kalt die Nacht;
bestaubt sind die Gesichter, doch froh ist unser Sinn, ist unser Sinn
es braust, unser Panzer, in Sturm-wind da hin!"
John Waters
jul...@aol.com (JULR85A) wrote:
>Wittmann was killed not far away at Gaumesmil in August 1944 while riding
>Tiger number 007, after being surrounded by at least 5 Shermans. He and
>two of his crew (Rudolf Hirschel and Heinrich Reimers) were buried in an
>unmarked roadside grave at the same spot of his final battle until 1981,
>when the grave was discovered. The remains of the three men have been
>placed in a common grave at the Soldatenfriedhof (German military
>cemetary) at La Cambe (Block 47, Row 3, Grave 120).
>Source: Panzers in Normandy Then and Now by Eric Lefevre
Wittmann's Tiger(007 from the Stabs Coy) and 3 others were destroyed
by a lone Sherman Firefly commanded by a Sgt Gordon of the 3rd Troop
1st Northamptonshire Yoemanry. In a 55 minute battle, in and around
St. Aignan-de- Cramesnil.
Source: "Tiger Ace" by: Gary L. Simpson
Regards, John Waters
JULR85A
Response to John Waters:
Does Simpson have any photo evidence?
I tend to believe Eric Lefevre's facts because there are actual
PHOTOGRAPHS of him standing at the roadside grave in Gaumesmil. Lefevre
also shows a photograph of 007's turret blown off the hull and upside
down.
I find it very outrageously hard to believe that a "lone firefly" could
pop off a Tiger (after Wittmann in Tiger 200 kicked the County of London
Yeomanry's ass, killing dozens of fireflies and cromwells by HIMSELF in
one afternoon only a few weeks before at Villers-Bocage) let alone 3
Tigers!
I think Simpson better check his facts!
"Ob's stuermt oder schneit; ob die Sonne uns lacht;
der Tag gluehend heiss, oder eis-kalt die Nacht;
bestaubt sind die Gesichter, doch froh ist unser Sinn, ja unser Sinn;
Stinger
>I find it very outrageously hard to believe that a "lone firefly"
could pop off a Tiger (after Wittmann in Tiger 200 kicked the County of
London Yeomanry's ass, killing dozens of fireflies and cromwells by
HIMSELF in one afternoon only a few weeks before at Villers-Bocage) let
alone 3 Tigers!
>
As I understand it, Wittmann's Tiger, in rolling down the street of a
French village (name escapes me at the moment), unwittingly presented
its flank to that lone Firefly, which was hiding in an alley. The
Firefly then shot at the Tiger point-blank, and the rest is history (no
pun intended).
Pure luck can defeat the best laid plans of mice and men (with
apologies to Robert Burns).
Todd
M.Rapier
In article <54os56$h...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, jul...@aol.com says...
>Response to John Waters:
>Does Simpson have any photo evidence?
>I tend to believe Eric Lefevre's facts because there are actual
>PHOTOGRAPHS of him standing at the roadside grave in Gaumesmil. Lefevre
>also shows a photograph of 007's turret blown off the hull and upside
>down.
>
>I find it very outrageously hard to believe that a "lone firefly" could
>pop off a Tiger (after Wittmann in Tiger 200 kicked the County of London
>Yeomanry's ass, killing dozens of fireflies and cromwells by HIMSELF in
>one afternoon only a few weeks before at Villers-Bocage) let alone 3
>Tigers!
>
>I think Simpson better check his facts!
While Gary Simpsons book is flawed in many respects, he does seem to have done
a great deal of research on Wittmans actions in Normandy, and from memory (I
haven't got that enourmous great book at work), the account of Wittmans final
action is very detailed & fits in with other accounts I have read from the
Northumberland Yeomanry (although they claim it was only three Tigers they
shot up).
It is somewhat overstating the situtation to say it was a 'lone firefly',
rather a troop of NY were position behind a hedgerow with their usual
complement of 75mm armed Shermans and a Firefly.
Wittman was leading a counterattack with four Tigers and around twenty
assorted other panzers. The Yeomanry Shermans opened fire, changing position
after each couple of rounds and drew the Germans fire. The firefly out on the
flank was able to pick off the Tigers one by one, Wittmans being the last to
be destroyed.
Being stuck in the middle of a field under fire from concealed units is a
quite different situation to motoring up and down a column of stationary enemy
vehicles who are not expecting to be attacked. So although Wittman scored a
great success at Villiers bocage, the tactical position was entirely
different. Of course during his second attack on Villiers Bocage, the British
were ready and all Wittmans tanks that entered the town were knocked out.
Cheers.
Martin.
Frank Copeland
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
John Waters (JWa...@imcbbs.imcnet.net) wrote:
: Wittmann's Tiger(007 from the Stabs Coy) and 3 others were destroyed
: by a lone Sherman Firefly commanded by a Sgt Gordon of the 3rd Troop
: 1st Northamptonshire Yoemanry. In a 55 minute battle, in and around
: St. Aignan-de- Cramesnil.
:
: Source: "Tiger Ace" by: Gary L. Simpson
Yet we never hear Sgt Gordon being eulogised for this remarkable feat.
After all, a Tiger was nearly invulnerable, or so we are told, yet here is
someone who bagged four in one day. On the other hand, Wittman is lauded as
some kind of superman for shooting up a column of Cromwells and halftracks
trapped in a sunken road. Since the Cromwell's 75 wasn't much of a threat
to a Tiger, Wittman wasn't in very much danger, and shooting fish in a
barrel does not a military genius make. I'm much more impressed by Sgt
Gordon than Wittman, and even more impressed with Sgts Morris and Vincent.
Who were they? The commanders of two 6pdr AT gun detachments who bagged
about 20 PzIII and Pz IV between them one sunny day in 1943.
Frank Copeland <f...@wossname.apana.org.au>
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--
____
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/O O ./ .' Those clams seek Nutty everywhere,
{__, \ { Is he an SP, or 1.1 churl,
/ . . ) \ That damn'd elusive, Nutty squirr'l
|NOTS-| \ }
.( _( )_.' Spam Attack on alt.religion.scientology:
'---.~_ _ _& http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html
John Waters
jul...@aol.com (JULR85A) wrote:
>Response to John Waters:
>Does Simpson have any photo evidence?
Exactly what kind of photo evidence are you looking for?.
>I tend to believe Eric Lefevre's facts because there are actual
>PHOTOGRAPHS of him standing at the roadside grave in Gaumesmil. Lefevre
>also shows a photograph of 007's turret blown off the hull and upside
>down.
Yes, Lefevre made a big deal out of "finding" Wittmanns grave etc.
That photo is also in Simpsons book along with other previously unseen
photos of Wittmann etc. Their is also about 3 pages of sources, along
with interveiw material, and unpublished material.
>I find it very outrageously hard to believe that a "lone firefly" could
>pop off a Tiger (after Wittmann in Tiger 200 kicked the County of London
>Yeomanry's ass, killing dozens of fireflies and cromwells by HIMSELF in
>one afternoon only a few weeks before at Villers-Bocage) let alone 3
>Tigers!
>I think Simpson better check his facts!
Um, what is it with this "Tiger" myth I can't believe the number of
people who take what was acheived by suprise ex, Villers Bocage, and
turn it into the invincibility of the Tiger1. Wittmann caught the
Brits off guard and during a break, and dismounted from their
vehichles, and chewed them up, with 88L56 and MG-34 fire.
How could a lone Firefly destroy Wittmanns Tiger1. Wittmanns force of
3 Tiger1s and PzKpfw IV, were attaacking towards their objective, and
the Brit commander placed a lone firefly in Ambush, and drew Wittmanns
force into it by having the 75mm Shermans race around and fire to
distract the Tiger1 crews, and it worked as the Firefly began knocking
out Wittmanns force from around 800yrds, Wittmanns was the last tank
to be destroyed. 1 shot was fired at the Firefly by one of the German
tanks, the round knocked the turret hatches down inside the tank,
other then that the Firefly remained unscratched.
I think you should read "Tiger Ace" before making judgments.
Regards, John Waters
JULR85A
Response to John Waters, Frank Copeland, and others asserting that the
first Villers-Bocage action was a piece of cake because Wittmann caught A
squadron, County of London Yeomanry, parked along a road:
A lot of skill and bravery on the part of Wittmann and his crew was
involved. First, he knocked out the end halftrack, blocking the escape of
the column. Yes, the Brits were mostly dismounted when the attack began,
but by the time Wittmann had gotten to the other end of the column, there
were fully crewed Fireflies and Cromwells moving about. Several of the
Cromwells were shot well away from the road (by the way it was not a
sunken road-see Lefevre's pictures). Altogether, Wittmann destroyed 25
armored vehicles that day, together with an unknown number of soft-skinned
vehicles. The action prevented the encirclement of the Panzer Lehr
division.
Response to John Waters:
Your original hard-to-believe assertion was that in Wittmann's final
action, ONE British simply tank killed THREE Tigers, which, according to
your second post, is not what Simpson said. The situation apparently was
much more complex, according to Simpson.
Lefevre's account of the battle is still very different from Simpson's:
"A few eyewitness accounts have since described how Wittmann's Tiger,
fighting alone against a group of Shermans east of Cintheaux during the
evening, having destroyed two of them and immobilised a third, looked set
on fighting its way out when it took the full impact of five Shermans
firing from three sides. There were no survivors."
Response to Frank Copeland:
Oh, come now. These random Brits (an AT gun crew? give me a break!) are
unknown and Wittmann is world famous because no one has EVER paralleled
Wittmann's record as a tank ace. Again from Eric Lefevre's book, Panzers
in Normandy Then and Now:
" When he was killed on August 8, near Cintheaux, Wittmann had been
credited with destroying 138 tanks and assault guns and 132 anti-tank guns
in less than two years."
Wittmann died with a Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves AND Swords, among
other decorations.
THAT is why he is world famous and these other guys will always be
obscure. THAT is why Eric Lefevre made a "big deal" about finding his
initial roadside grave in 1981 and make a proper burial possible.
DIE PANZERLIED:
"Ob's stuermt oder schneit, ob die Sonne uns lacht;
M.Rapier
In article <54smv1$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, JWa...@imcbbs.imcnet.net says...
>jul...@aol.com (JULR85A) wrote:
>How could a lone Firefly destroy Wittmanns Tiger1. Wittmanns force of
>3 Tiger1s and PzKpfw IV, were attaacking towards their objective, and
>the Brit commander placed a lone firefly in Ambush, and drew Wittmanns
>force into it by having the 75mm Shermans race around and fire to
>distract the Tiger1 crews, and it worked as the Firefly began knocking
>out Wittmanns force from around 800yrds, Wittmanns was the last tank
>to be destroyed. 1 shot was fired at the Firefly by one of the German
>tanks, the round knocked the turret hatches down inside the tank,
>other then that the Firefly remained unscratched.
While I am no great subscriber to the 'invincible Tiger' myth, I think you are
mixing up two actions.
Wittmans second attack on Villers-bocage was composed of three Tiger Is and a
Pz IV (all of which were KO'd, mainly by 75mm gunned Cromwells). The attack in
which he died was compsed of four Tiger Is (three according to some accounts)
and twenty odd other vehicles (someone else posted that about half were
Panzerjagers).
I've read various accounts of his end, from being bombed during Cobra
(unfortunately his unit was never stationed in that part of the front), to
being hit by the salvo from five Shermans and also Simpsons account.Of all of
them, his seems to fit in better with the records of the Northumberland
Yeomanry.
There is no such thing as an invincible tank, some may be harder to destroy
than others, but combat vehicles do not have a great deal of absolute value,
they have relative value depending on the level of crew experience & training,
the tactical situation at the time and frequently pure luck. In Tunisia a pair
of Churchill IVs overran eight anti-tank guns (including two 88s and two Pak
40s), destroyed a couple of PzIIIs and then shot up around 200 other vehicles.
A feat I have never, ever managed to reproduce on the wargames table (or in
Steel Panthers, PitS etc.) but which is well documented. Those tank crews were
very,very lucky, as well as being experienced and confident in their
equipment.
Micheal Wittman was a very skilled tank commander, he was also very lucky (as
he himself admitted), being wounded on many occasions and only escaping with
his life by chance. If you'd put him in a Pz IV, he would have probably have
been as successful. Of course, having that magic combination of driving a
Tiger and being in the SS made him a godsend to the Nazi propoganda machine -
there were even special news bulletins when he'd had a successful action.
Cheers.
Martin.
John Waters
jul...@AOL.COM (JULR85A) wrote:
>Response to John Waters, Frank Copeland, and others asserting that the
>first Villers-Bocage action was a piece of cake because Wittmann caught A
>squadron, County of London Yeomanry, parked along a road:
>
<snip>
I never said Wittmanns sucess at Villers was a cakewalk. But neither
was it a challenge as in return fire cohesive defense action by
British etc etc. From their own words the British tankers & troops
were running for cover and watching the great brew up.. Wittmann took
out the Firefys as fast as he could as well as the rest of the AFVs
and moved on. The real winner in this battle was suprise and daring
Not neccesarily in that order.
Personaly I prefer Simpsons work as its more current then Lefevre's,
it also has new info not availabale before. I'd also add that IMO it
puts the Typhoon, Shermans etc, stories of Wittmanns demise to bed.
Regards, John Waters
Osika
> On 10-22-96 jul...@AOL.COM (JULR85A) wrote:
>I tend to believe Eric Lefevre's facts because there are actual
>PHOTOGRAPHS of him standing at the roadside grave in Gaumesmil.
>:On 10- 21-96 John Waters wrote:
>:Wittmann's Tiger.........destroyed
>:by a lone Sherman Firefly commanded by a Sgt Gordon of the 3rd Troop
>:1st Northamptonshire Yoemanry. In a 55 minute battle, in and around
>:St. Aignan-de- Cramesnil.
Both gentlemen are correct...Gaumesnil is on N158 highway south of
Caen and St. Aignan-de-Cramesnil about a mile from there. Wittmans
grave was found nearby to Gaumesnil while the position taken by
Gordons Firefly was nearer to St Aignan.
See After the Battle #48 for another description and an aerial
photograph of the area clearly depicting the locations.
> On 10-27-96 jul...@AOL.COM (JULR85A) wrote:
>Your original hard-to-believe assertion was that in Wittmann's final
>action, ONE British simply tank killed THREE Tigers, which, according to
>your second post, is not what Simpson said. The situation apparently was
>much more complex, according to Simpson.
Read the article in A/B, it includes the diary of the Northamptonshire
Yeomanry. The final action of Wittman doesnt appear to be so
complex....Wittman advanced across an open field devoid of cover and
was picked off by a sharpshooting Firefly crew...BTW, Sgt Gordon was
wounded during the action, but credit should go to his gunner, Trooper
Joe Ekins. He knocked off the Three Tigers @800 yards within 12
minutes and less than an hour later 2 MkIVs at a range of 1800 yds.
(According to the A/B article).
>Lefevre's account of the battle is still very different from Simpson's:
>"A few eyewitness accounts have since described how Wittmann's Tiger,
>fighting alone against a group of Shermans east of Cintheaux during the
>evening, having destroyed two of them and immobilised a third, looked set
>on fighting its way out when it took the full impact of five Shermans
>firing from three sides. There were no survivors."
I haven't Lefevres book but consider this. Lefevre _Panzers in
Normandy_ is published by the same group as the After the Battle
magazine. The book was published @ 1983 (I believe). The article in
A/B #48 was published in 1985. According to the article and editor
comments, the grave of Wittman was found by _Jean Paul Pallud_ (no
mention of Lefevre) in 1982 while doing research for Panzers in
Normandy. Pallud is the ACE detective that uncannily leads the picture
research for the A/B pubs.
The statement you quote from Lefevre's 1983 book, depicts (somewhat
heroically) a surrounded lone Tiger in a final shootout at sunset and
sounds a bit poetic. In the 1985 article, according to the Northants
Yeomanry diary, the action took place between 1240 and 1252 hours that
afternoon. In the absence of further investigation did Lefevre take a
little poetic licence to complete his book?
Regards...
Dion Osika