Did Finland troops dynamite frozen lakes to drown Russians?
"Rocky" L. Rahkoun
"It was not uncommon for advancing Russian troops chasing Finns to be
led to an ice-covered lake wired with explosives. When the dynamite was
set off, the Russians would drown."
Is this true? If so, can you recommend any references which give any
more information about the use of this tactic? Was its use
widespread? How effective was it?
Thanks, Rocky
VeloNut
depicting the Russian resistance against the Knights Templars centuries ago.
The Russians lured the heavily armored Knights onto thin ice and wiped them
out.
Shows you - anyone can defeat anyone else on a given day. (No one is
unbeatable all the time!!)
Dale Lally
St Lawrence University
Alex Von Kaufman
method, although it is a clever one. One more often used method was trapping
the troops by destroying the first and last vehicles in a column of an
armoured division. The transportation vehicles were often left and the
troops attempted to return on foot, freezing to death or being ambushed by
finn ski soldiers.
regards,
Alex Von Kaufman.
"Rocky" L. Rahkoun wrote in message <6rr047$e...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
John D Salt
>IRT luring pursuers onto thin ice, I recently saw the movie Alexander Nevski
>depicting the Russian resistance against the Knights Templars centuries ago.
An Arctic Warfare manual in my possession, dated post-war, but I
believe owing a considerable debt to WW2 experience, mentions "ice-
mines". These, it says, should (unlike practically every other
kind of mine) be planted sufficiently close together to produce
sympathetic detonation, presumably giving an "Aleksandr Nevskiy"
effect when the first one goes off.
Another type of mine mentioned that seems special to arctic
conditions is the ski-mine; because the ground pressure of a man
on skis may be insufficient to set off a normal mine, sensitively-
fuzed mines are placed in ski tracks to catch skiers. One can
expect skiers to follow exisiting tracks because this is apparently
much less effort than breaking a trail in fresh snow.
All the best,
John.
--
John D Salt Dept of IS & Computing,| Barr's Law of Recursive Futility
Brunel U, Uxbridge, Middx UB8 3PH | [BLORF]: If you are smart enough
Disclaimers: I speak only for me. | to use one of these... you can
Launcher may train without warning.| probably manage without one.
JR
<rockymtman...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
> ...
> "It was not uncommon for advancing Russian troops chasing Finns to be
>led to an ice-covered lake wired with explosives. When the dynamite was
>set off, the Russians would drown."
>
Finns blew up the ice-cover of lakes for same reason as bridges
are blown up - to slow down enemies. However, this kind of
icebridge "repairs" itself quit fast when temperature is low enough,
and that's why ice was usually blown up in front of attacking enemy
troops.
It is of cource possible that some soviet soldiers have drown in
this kind of situation, but I think that was not so common.
Juha
jann...@hotmail.com
>
> led to an ice-covered lake wired with explosives. When the dynamite was
> set off, the Russians would drown."
>
> more information about the use of this tactic? Was its use
> widespread? How effective was it?
Indeed, this tactic was used for coastal defense on the shores of Viipuri
Bay and Lake Laatokka (the largest lake). There were special devices
"icemines" and they were detonated as late as possible because the ice
would freeze anew, it would support a man in a matter of hours and a light
tank in a few days. (Actually luring advancing Soviets onto the ice
happened probably only in the imagination of foreign correspondents.)
Keeping the refrozen ice from getting too think required renewed mining,
which was done in the dark or using mortars or artillery to do the job, if
this was impossible.
In many cases the advancing Soviets did drown, but this was caused more
often by artillery shells breaking the ice (several tanks went down) or
simply because the infantry ran into the thin ice (machine guns firing in
front and behind them, shells falling down).
An equally important effect was the one caused by the water that was
thrown on the surface, it made the snow soggy and the infantry got their
clothes wet only to freeze again. The cold rendered the soldiers inable to
operate.
A recommendable book about the Winter War in English is "The Frozen Hell"
by (oops, a memory blank) Trotter.
Janne Glad
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Juha Veijalainen
> "It was not uncommon for advancing Russian troops chasing Finns to be
> led to an ice-covered lake wired with explosives. When the dynamite was
> set off, the Russians would drown."
>
> Is this true? If so, can you recommend any references which give any
> more information about the use of this tactic? Was its use
> widespread? How effective was it?
Mining lakes and sea was standard procedure and as far as I know, is
still taught to the pioneers (=engineers for all of you outside of
Finland).
Ice is just another terrain type. 'Ice mines' usually consisted
several explosive charges a few metres apart. When exploded, they'd
open a gash in the ice, spray water on the surface and create a kind
of obstacle course. If weather is cold enough, this effect wont last
but a few hours.
Another way to build obstacles is to deliberately weaken the ice, for
example by sawing off large pieces. This would prevent heavy
equipment movement over ice.
I doubt typical 'ice minefields' would have been used like described
above. More likely the mine field would be detonated when the Soviets
attacked.
Of course pipe mines and other types of anti personnel mines are very
effective over ice, too.
--
Juha Veijalainen, Helsinki, Finland
http://www.iki.fi/juhave/
** Mielipiteet omiani ** Opinions personal, facts suspect **
Glenn Dowdy
>
> Another type of mine mentioned that seems special to arctic
> conditions is the ski-mine; because the ground pressure of a man
> on skis may be insufficient to set off a normal mine, sensitively-
> fuzed mines are placed in ski tracks to catch skiers. One can
> expect skiers to follow exisiting tracks because this is apparently
> much less effort than breaking a trail in fresh snow.
>
the number of personnel.
Glenn Dowdy
jann...@hotmail.com
Glenn Dowdy <glenn...@hp.com> wrote:
> It is. Additionally, a unit traveling in in single set of tracks hides
> the number of personnel.
Well, to any native it doesn´t. Each additional skier makes the track sink a
fraction deeper into the snow and the poles leave their marks, too. It´s a bit
like Indian scouts and tracks of horses:-)
Janne
Urban Ståhl
12 months on my skies during my 15 months of military service) we were
educated how to tell how many persons who had skied in one single set of
tracks, and which direction they went.
--
Urban Ståhl "Stick to your buddy, keep your
Stockholm Sweden feet dry, and always have warm
u.s...@swipnet.se drink in your vacuum flask."
Glenn Dowdy <glenn...@hp.com> skrev i inlägg <35E706...@hp.com>...
> John D Salt wrote:
> > One can
> > expect skiers to follow exisiting tracks because this is apparently
> > much less effort than breaking a trail in fresh snow.
> >
> It is. Additionally, a unit traveling in in single set of tracks hides
> the number of personnel.
>
> Glenn Dowdy
>
Papachristofilou Alexander
using his artillery, so this is something that was tried before.
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