HITLERS DOUBLE?
sev...@rocketmail.com
I remember seeing in a tv program about the
battle of berlin and the last days of hitler,
a scene where, after the surrender the russians
posed with a body of a man who looked like
hitler, and was said to have been used
as a double for security reasons and suacided.
I havn't seen any reference to use of doubles
by Hitler in history books, so can someone
confirm this? Also what was his real identity?
carson
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Drake Burwash
Yes, it is true.
I have seen this evidence in more than one book. Hitler did in fact
have a double but I do not believe that it was intentional. Apparently
the Gestapo had files on a man who disguised himself as Hitler and
lived in Berlin. While I don't know why they didn't get rid of him, he
eventually wound up dead when the Russians first thought they had
found his body. This is where the english language gained the word
'Doppleganger'.
Hitler may have had a double for public appearances from a distance
late in the war. With his failing health if there was an occasion for
him to make an appearance they might have used the double. I have not
seen any evidence supporting this though.
I know that Churchill had a voice double for sure. The speech that was
broadcast on the radio "we will fight on the beaches..." was not the
original speech in Parliament, but rather an actor reading the Hansard
after the session was over.
Drake
>I havn't seen any reference to use of doubles
>by Hitler in history books, so can someone
>confirm this? Also what was his real identity?
>
>carson
=============
Drake Burwash
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In article <6ep41u$1kci$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
sev...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> I havn't seen any reference to use of doubles
> by Hitler in history books, so can someone
> confirm this? Also what was his real identity?
I saw this same thing in a video series called "Russia's War: Blood on the
Snow" and I believe it was Hitler's secretary/stewared? The way it's
explained
on the video is that they had to check his ears because the face was messed up
enough to make a visual check questionable. I don't know his name, but they
make a comment that this man had to shave off his moustache because people
would confuse them at times, pretty risky!
Tim Watkins
On 18 March 1998 carson <sev...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> I remember seeing in a tv program about the battle of
> berlin and the last days of hitler, a scene where, after
> the surrender the russians posed with a body of a man
> who looked like hitler, and was said to have been used
> as a double for security reasons and suacided.
I remember seeing the same documentary and, as I recall, this was a body
that had originally been discovered in a large water fountain (along with
numerous other bodies) in the Chancellory by the Russian 248th and 301st
Rifle Divisions of the 5th Attack Army upon entry into this facility on 2
May 1945. Vizadmiral Hans-Erich Voss, who had been captured by the
Russians on the same date, as he attempted a break-out of Berlin, was
turned over to the 79th Smersh Unit, who had had the responsibility of
finding Hitler. Voss was taken back to the Chancellery.
As I recall the story, Voss first identified this body to the Russians as
that of Hitler. Then, upon closer examination, it was determined not to
be Hitler. The Russians noted that the body bore darned socks on the
feet; they speculated that Hitler never would have worn darned socks.
Additionally, part of the confusion in early May was that some of the
Germans had reported that Hitler had committed suicide by shooting
himself in the mouth. This unidentified body had a bullet wound in the
face in the area of the mouth and, coupled to the close resemblance to
Hitler (age consistent with Hitler, approximate body size, weight, growth
of moustache, etc.), led to early speculation that the body was indeed
that of Hitler. You'll recall that the film footage taken in the bunker
garden by the Russians on 4 May showed numerous Russians standing next to
and pointing at this body, with a photo of Hitler next to the head of the
body placed there for comparison.
The Russians then later reported in the documentary that a Russian
lieutenant and soldier had unearthed and found Hitler's and Eva
Braun-Hitler's burned bodies in a shell crater approximately 3-4 meters
from the entrance to the bunker. Then there is film showing Voss in
attendance with Russian pathologists on 8 May in Berlin-Buch, as the
pathologists were performing autopsies on Goebbels and his wife and
children. The Russians reported that the same pathologists had performed
autopsies on Hitler and Eva Braun-Hitler.
> I havn't seen any reference to use of doubles by Hitler
> in history books, so can someone confirm this?
The accounts that I have read indicate that Hitler did not use doubles
and, if any doubles had existed (some Hitler look-alikes did exist), they
were not officially sanctioned and used by the Nazi-state. Anton
Joachimsthaler, in his book "The Last Days of Hitler", attributes this
information about the dressing-up, murder, and deliberate placing of a
Hitler double in the Chancellery as coming from the Chief of the Gestapo
Heinrich Mueller, whose accounts of this double have been discredited.
> Also, what was his real identity?
As I recall, this body originally found in the water fountain was never
positively identified by either the Russians or Germans.
The debate now, as I see it, is whether the Russians did in fact find
Hitler's charred body and autopsy same, and whether the skull pieces,
partial jaw bone with dentures, and odontological pieces allegedly in the
Moscow archives are actually that of Hitler. As the Americans found
X-rays of Hitler's teeth taken in September and October of 1944 at the
Karlshof field hospital near Rastenburg and are now stored in the
National Archives in Washington, DC, it seems possible that a comparison
could be made of the X-rays of the remaining teeth in Moscow to those
X-rays in Washington, DC..
Tim Watkins
"We shall not capitulate - no, never, we may be destroyed, but if we are,
we shall drag a world with us - a world in flames."
- Adolf Hitler, 1932
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James Bailey
Tim Watkins (wb6...@juno.com) wrote:
: As the Americans found
: X-rays of Hitler's teeth
[snip]
it seems possible that a comparison
: could be made of the X-rays of the remaining teeth in Moscow to those
: X-rays in Washington, DC..
As I recall, positive dental matches have been made between
Hitler's records and the remains held by the Russians. There is no longer
any doubt that the Russians found Hitler's burned remains. However, there
is conflicting evidence regarding the remains thought to be those of Eva
Braun. In short, it was definitely Hitler's burned body, but while likely
that Braun's body was there too, that has not been established as fact.
Jim Bailey
Tim Watkins
On 19 March 1998 Drake Burwash <*remove*dr...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
>
> Hitler may have had a double for public appearances from a
> distance late in the war. With his failing health if there was an
> occasion for him to make an appearance they might have used
> the double. I have not seen any evidence supporting this though.
>
I don't see any reference to a double used or proposed for use by Hitler
in public. After the aerial attack on Germany began, Hitler was not seen
in public, only Goebbels and Goering shouting "ausharren" (hold out, hang
in there) among the ruins. Late in the ETO conflict, outside of train
and motor car travel to military conferences and meetings, the only
public appearance I know of that Hitler made was on 20 March 1945 when he
met a group of Hitler Youth alongside the Chancellery to award them Iron
Cross medals in their defense of the Reich. He did take short walks in
the bunker garden, but I think these jaunts were out of the eye of the
public.
Eyewitness accounts of these walks suggest that Hitler was indeed a
shaking, stooped, shuffling, and broken man, and in March 1945 was in
grave physical condition.
Tim Watkins
"Men do not become tyrants in order to keep out the cold."
- Aristotle
montgomery dray
In response to the question of who the double was found dead outside
Hitler's bunker, Ada Petrova, in her book "The Death of Hitler", claims
that Gustav Veler was the double, and had some sort of menial job in the
Reich chancellery. He supposedly was called in to "double" for Hitler
on certain occasions. Also, Hugh Thomas, in his book "The Murder of
Adolph Hitler", claims that Veler was a person who had a remarkable
likeness to Hitler, but that "it was impossible to link a live Veler to
a dead Fuhrer". Any response to this or any questions or discussion
about the fate of Hitler would be greatly appreciated.
montgomery dray
In response to the question of who Hitler's double was, Ada Petrova, in
her book "The Death of Hitler", wrote that the man found dead outside of
the bunker and identified as Hitler, was a "double" named Gustav Veler.
He apparantly had some sort of menial job in the Reich chancellery.
However, Hugh Thomas, in his book, "The Murder of Adolph Hitler", claims
that although there was a remarkable likeness, "it was impossible to
link a live Veler to a dead Fuhrer." Any response to this, or about the