How many bombs hit home at Midway?
sa...@canada.com
Has it ever been determined exactly how many US bombs hit Japanese
ships at Midway ... and is it possible to determine which planes
dropped them?
And how much time elapsed from the first hit to the last? 5 mins? 10
mins?
Midway must surely rank at the top of the list of battles in which the
most changed strategically in the shortest time.
SRM421
minutes since carrier based airraids did not last much longer.
In the first raid
Akagi 1 500lb and 1 1000lb
Kaga 2 500lb and 2 1000lb
Soryu 4 1000 lb
in the later raid
Hiryu 4 1000 lb
Only one carrier sank from damage the Soryu. The rest were scuttled as they
could not fight their fires anymore. The armed strike on deck of the Akagi and
Kaga did most of the damage as these were first line ships. the daange to
Kaga would have put her out but should not have ended her. Akagi should have
been back in the fight later.
Rich Rostrom
>Has it ever been determined exactly how many US bombs hit Japanese
>ships at Midway ... and is it possible to determine which planes
>dropped them?
I guess we're talking about the attack by the carrier DBs (Bombing
3, Bombing 6, and Scouting 6) on AKAGI, KAGA, and SORYU.
Walter Lord in _Incredible Victory_ went over the evidence and
even interviewed many of the participants on both sides.
He concluded that the attack went about like this:
Bombing 3 scored at least three hits on SORYU
Bombing 6 1st Division scored three hits on AKAGI
Scouting 6 and Bombing 6 2nd and 3rd Divisions scored at least 4 hits
on KAGA.
>And how much time elapsed from the first hit to the last? 5 mins? 10
>mins?
Wade McClusky started the attack on KAGA at 10:22 AM.
Dick Best shifted Bombing 6 1st Division to AKAGI after
McClusky surprised him by attacking KAGA; diving about
a minute later.
Max Leslie started the attack on SORYU at 10:25 AM
All three attacks were over within 3 minutes.
--
It seemed incredible that the petty manipulations | Rich Rostrom
we had done so quietly in the dark could result in |
such a glorious catastrophe. | rrostrom@
--- Vladimir Peniakoff, _Popski's Private Army_ | 21stcentury.net
busterhy
within one or so. About 9 hits wiped out the three carriers in the morning;
Hiryu took about 3 more.
The heavy cruisers took many hits, in fact after the battle this was pointed
out, that it took far too many hits of the instant explosion bombs to sink
one (MIKUMA) and damage the other (MOGAMI) where delayed explosion bombs
would have probably sunk both.
I think there was also one hit on a destroyer.
No doubt about your other point., Midway changed the course of the entire
war in about 5 minutes. No other 5 minutes compares during the entire six
year period.
<sa...@canada.com> wrote in message
news:383f3660...@news.usenetserver.com...
>
>
> Has it ever been determined exactly how many US bombs hit Japanese
> ships at Midway ... and is it possible to determine which planes
> dropped them?
> And how much time elapsed from the first hit to the last? 5 mins? 10
> mins?
Keith B. Rosenberg
> Has it ever been determined exactly how many US bombs hit Japanese
> ships at Midway ... and is it possible to determine which planes
> dropped them?
> And how much time elapsed from the first hit to the last? 5 mins? 10
> mins?
> Midway must surely rank at the top of the list of battles in which the
> most changed strategically in the shortest time.
The first three carriers were mortally damaged
in about 6 minutes with no more than about 12
U.S. bombs. Then there were all of the bombs and
full fuel tanks of the planes about to take off.
That and the lack of adequate damage control
measures doomed the carriers.
As for what plane dropped the bombs that hit, I
do not know of any place where that has been
done. It is enough to know that all contributed
even those that missed contributed.
Especially those of Torpedo 8.
Does anyone remember if Ensign Gay's ashes were
buried at sea near Midway? I seem to remember
something about it but may be mistaken.
********************************************************************
enor...@ix.netcom.com (Keith B. Rosenberg) (EN][)
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
Lawrence Dillard
reconstruct the hits in blow-by-blow fashion.
IIRC, he credits ENTERPRISE pilots with sinking two a/c carriers (AKAGI,
KAGA) in the first strike, and YORKTOWN with one (Soryyu).
Amazingly, the timing of the strikes could not have been better; one pilot,
in his dive onto a target, recalls that he had been unaware that another
group of USN divebombers was in the area. He became alerted to their
presence while in his dive by flashes from bomb-bursts on another a/c
carrier. It could be that three IJN a/c carriers came under fatal attack
within a period of no more than two minutes' duration.
Another truly incredible feature of the Midway batle is that for all the
determination and ferocity of the IJN air attacks on the US task force at
Midway, all damage, due either to torpedo or bomb, was done to just one US
vessel, YORKTOWN, until the battle was essentially over. An IJN submarine
sank that a/c carrier and an escorting destroyer after YORKTOWN had been
temporarily abandoned, then somehow evaded counterattack.
Thanks for the post.
ldil...@EnterAct.com
sa...@canada.com wrote in message
<383f3660...@news.usenetserver.com>...
Gordon
Practically everyone else in an SBD claimed a "diirect hit" but there were only
about three or four that correspond to the Japanese reports of the battle -- no
doubt on Dick and Swede's though.
v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew
"Senso, got anything on your radar?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."
RAL
wasn't there. Not to be giving you a hard time, but 'Swede' Vejtasa's
squadron, VS-5, wasn't at Midway, the "VS-5" at Midway was VB-5
redesignated. Besides, Vejtasa had already been detached from the real
VS-5 by then and was with Jimmy Flatley in VF-10.
Flatley had been XO of VF-42 at Coral Sea, with orders to VF-10 as CO.
He detached from VF-42 at Tongatabu, with VS-5's Vejtasa and Fritz
Faulkner and joined the Lexington survivors for the trip to the west
coast via transport, picking up John Leppla, Dave Pollock, and Bobby
Edwards from the Lexington folks for his squadron as well. Vince
McCormack moved up to XO of Fighting 42. McCormack and the VF-42
skipper, Charlie Fenton, stayed at Pearl and the rest of the VF-42
pilots made up the majority of the pilots in Thach's VF-3 (64% of those
that flew, 59% overall) at Midway.
Flatley and company, including Vejtasa, were in their very first days at
North Island setting up the Grim Reapers while Midway was being fought.
So who scored hits at Midway?
Kaga - Some 28 dive bombers went after the Kaga, Earl Gallaher (VS-6)
hit first [with the words "Arizona, I remember you" - USS Arizona had
been Gallaher's first duty station], then Dusty Kleiss (VS-6), James
Dexter (VS-6), and Clarence Dickinson (VS-6). After that, the Japanese
stopped counting (mostly because Dexter's hit wiped out the bridge) and
with all the smoke and flames it was a little difficult for the bomber
pilots to tell, VS-6 claimed three more hits and VB-6 claimed two.
Akagi - Dick Best, Bud Kroeger, and Fred Weber all from VB-6 and the
only planes to attack the Akagi.
Soryu - Paul Holmberg & Sid Bottomley, both of VB-3. Dave Shumway, XO
of VB-3 and the last to go in reported that he saw at least 5 direct
hits and three near misses, but who scored the other three hit is
unknown. Whoever it was, the damage was so convincing that the
remaining planes of Shumway's division broke off and attacked an
escorting destroyer (mistaking it for a light cruiser).
Hiryu - Richard Jaccard (VS-6), Dave Shumway (VB-3), Dick Best (VB-6),
and at least one other. There were at least 9 hits or near misses, so
figure 4 hits for sure and 5 near misses.
Hornet's VB-8 and VS-8 never engaged the Soryu, Akagi, and Kaga. A mixed
group from both squadrons attacked Hiryu after the Enterprise and
Yorktown squadrons had already done her in, dropping 14 bombs ... all
missed. "VS-5" (really VB-5) was employed primarily in scouting missions
on June 4th. It was Sam Adams of VB-5 who found the Hiryu on the
afternoon of the 4th and reported her position for the fatal attack ...
he was killed on the 5th in an attack on the Tanikaze.
My 2 cents. Bombing info based on Cressman, Ewing, Tillman, Horan,
Cohen, and Reynolds, "A Glorious Page in our History" and Wildenberg
"Destined for Glory".
Regards,
Rich
Gordon
>No, sorry, Vejtasa couldn't have possibly scored a hit at Midway ... he
>wasn't there.<
I have to laugh there -- since I spend the occasional afternoon at his house,
reading his combat logs and diaries. He WAS there, and can prove it.
> Not to be giving you a hard time, but 'Swede' Vejtasa's
>squadron, VS-5, wasn't at Midway, the "VS-5" at Midway was VB-5
>redesignated. Besides, Vejtasa had already been detached from the real
>VS-5 by then and was with Jimmy Flatley in VF-10.<
Not true. He wasn't detached to join VF-10 until after the battle, when the
Yorktown was finished and he landed on the Enterprise, thus becoming available
to join Flatley. If books say otherwise, I would tend to side with Mr.
Vetjasa's personal papers and his story, told directly to me.
>Flatley and company, including Vejtasa, were in their very first days at
>North Island setting up the Grim Reapers while Midway was being fought.
>So who scored hits at Midway? <
I must respectfully disagree. Swede has mountains of documentation in his
home, as well as very precise information concerning the Yorktown's gunnery
officer that flew along in the back seat of his SBD at Midway. I have known
him for enough years to trust his honesty completely. He is one of the
featured guests at the "Victory over Japan" symposium each year and when he
discusses the battles at Coral Sea and Midway, it is all first person -- he was
there, sir. I am certain of it. His character doesn't include the flaw of
dishonesty.
v/r
Gordon
RAL
Honestly, sir, I had to laugh here, too. Long and hard, and then, a
feeling of sadness as I considered the full implications of your
statements.
While I've no doubt that you've spent considerable time with Captain
Vejtasa and I'm sure he's told you lots about his, and I say sincerely,
distinguished career, I believe, and the contemporary historical record
bears out, that you are mixing up the story. I stand by my post.
Obviously, if you are sure that your recitation of the events can be
proven, there are a couple of easy ways to do so, especially in light of
your already working relationship. The first, and readily verifiable
way is to tell us, sir, to which squadron, then, Lt Vejtasa was assigned
on the Yorktown during the Battle of Midway and then anyone, with an
interest in such things, can go to their sources and check the pilot
rosters ... they are available if one knows where to look, both in print
and on the internet. You might, however, wish to peruse the remainder
of this post before offering up that tidbit of information. Secondly,
you could impose upon your friendship and ask to review Capt Vejtasa's
flight log books for 4, 5, and 6 June 1942.
This would be a perfect opportunity for you to hold me up to the
ridicule of all. Wouldn't that be satisfying? I stand, before you,
sir, a willing target. If I am wrong, I have absolutely no qualms,
whatsoever, in making a public admission thereto and rendering you, and
by your proxy, Capt Vejtasa a public apology.
All we need to know, and of course, such information should readily be
found in those logs, are date, times, aircraft, bureau number, and
mission. That shouldn't be too tough ... that is exactly the sort of
information recorded in a pilot's flight log book. Of course, and it
should be left unsaid, the flip side to that is that you'll have to
share with us in this forum whatever information you find.
Frankly, as the sands of time run out on the remaining Midway veterans,
the questions raised by your statements need to be quickly resolved.
You write: "I spend the occasional afternoon at his house, reading his
combat logs and diaries. He WAS there, and can prove it."
Okay, and I am presuming, since this is your statement, that you mean
that you, Gordon, can prove it ... the flight log data are how to prove
it ... so prove it.
Please allow me to go back to the beginning for a moment:
In an article you posted on 6 Dec 99 in this forum, you emphatically
declared that Lt Vejtasa scored a bomb hit on a Japanese carrier. Your
exact words were: "Two verified hits were made by Dick Best and Swede
Vejtasa. Practically everyone else in an SBD claimed a "diirect hit"
but there were only about three or four that correspond to the Japanese
reports of the battle -- no doubt on Dick and Swede's though."
I posted, on 7 Dec 99, a response to your statements (and pointedly, you
did not, at the time of your post, quote, nor did you attribute your
statements to Capt Vejtasa, nor did you cite any other source, nor have
you since, for that matter). My post, in part, read: "No, sorry,
Vejtasa couldn't have possibly scored a hit at Midway ... he wasn't
there." I, then, went on to say, "...Besides, Vejtasa had already been
detached from the real VS-5 by then and was with Jimmy Flatley in
VF-10. Flatley and company, including Vejtasa, were in their very
first days at North Island setting up the Grim Reapers while Midway was
being fought." I then provided a, not so bad if I say so myself,
analysis of the available information of hit credits, noting individuals
and squadrons. Capt Vejtasa was not mentioned in my analysis because he
does not appear in the in the historical or contemporary records.
To which you now, most lately on 13 Dec 99, respond here with: "Not
true. He wasn't detached to join VF-10 until after the battle, when
the Yorktown was finished and he landed on the Enterprise, thus
becoming available to join Flatley. If books say otherwise, I would
tend to side with Mr. Vejtasa's personal papers and his story, told
directly to me."
Your conditions, therefore, for the sequence of events can be summarized
as:
1. Lt Vejtasa did not join VF-10 until after the Battle of Midway
2. Lt Vejtasa was present at the Battle of Midway. He served as a pilot
assigned to the USS Yorktown, and landed on the Enterprise after the
Yorktown was damaged.
3. Lt Vejtasa scored a bomb hit on a Japanese carrier at the Battle of
Midway.
You have also professed some distrust of postwar historical analysis and
have a preference for contemporary documents.
Okay, you may side where you will, and I don't wish to disappoint you,
but you are still mixing up your battles.
Regarding condition 1 (Lt Vejtasa did not join VF-10 until after the
Battle of Midway): The detachment I described and you counter-describe
did, indeed, occur after the Battle of the Coral Sea, the month previous
to the Battle of Midway, not afterwards. I offer, for your comments
some passages from a contemporary account that directly addresses
Condition 1 (with apologies to all for the long quotes, but they are, as
you will see, quite cogent to the sequence of events):
>From Stanley Johnston, "The Grim Reapers", EP Dutton and Co., 1943:
"A Marine orderly entered the ready room and told Flatley that
Captain Elliott Buckmaster requested him to report to the Captain's
quarters. ... Captain Buckmaster received him with a friendly nod,
invited him to sit down, and handed Flatley the copy of a signal just
now recorded. As Jim read it, a wide grin spread over his face. It was
an order to take the first available transportation to the west coast,
where he was to form and command a new fighter squadron, VF-10. It was a
first class assignment.
"The captain congratulated him, and suggested that he had better
pack quickly, get some breakfast, and transfer to the Neosho, which
would cast off soon and take him at least part way home.
"Jim's face fell at this advice. ... he made his request quietly:
‘Captain, we are expecting a big battle. I would like to be allowed to
remain and see it through. I could pick up transportation after it's
over. Surely you could use another pilot.'" (pgs 21 & 22)
"Back in the ready room he found two members of the scouting
squadron, Lieutenant Stanley Vejtasa and Lieutenant Fritz Faulkner.
Mightily excited, they informed him that they had just been ordered to
transfer to the Neosho and report to the San Diego Naval Air Station,
where they would become fighter pilots in VF-10. Their belongings
already rested on the Neosho's deck and they intended to follow after
breakfast.
"When Faulkner and Vejtasa heard that Flatley was to be their new
skipper and had requested to stay aboard for the battle, they insisted
on remaining, too. Surely, Vejtasa argued, two experienced fliers
shouldn't be refused a chance to get a crack at the Japs." (pg 22)
"Laughing, Jim had to promise he would make a similar request for them
if his was granted. ... An hour later ... Buckmaster greeted Jim with
one of his rare smiles. 'I have made arrangements for you to stay with
us, and I am glad to have you aboard,' he said.
"Jim put in quickly: ‘Lieutenants Vejtasa and Faulkner also ask
permission to see this thing through with the ship, sir.'
‘Well, all right. I see no reason why not, now that you're
remaining, because they can't do much back there until you arrive.'" (pg
23)
"Eight days after the Coral Sea engagement, several ships of Admiral
Fletcher's carrier force were anchored at a small Pacific island. A
hospital ship had taken several of the more serious battle casualties
aboard, and the remaining wounded were comfortably bedded down in the
hospital wards of two transports. The survivors of the Lexington had
been distributed between the transports - that is, all except a few who
had already been given other duties.
"Jim Flatley, Swede Vejtasa, and Fritz Faulkner had joined the Lex's
survivors on the homeward journey. With them was Bob Dixon, skipper of
Scouting 2, who had been a friend of Flatley's for years ... " (pg 45)
"The crowded transports arrived at a West Coast port late one June
day and it was 8:30 pm before the ships were warped alongside the
piers. Next morning Jim Flatley sat down in the office assigned to him
at the Naval Air Station and began the task of organizing the new
squadron. Vejtasa and Faulkner reported, bringing with them Ensigns R.M.
Vois and James Dowden. ... Pollack, Leppla, and Edwards had been granted
a months leave, as had all other Lex men. That left only five of the
new squadron ready to begin work." (pg 46).
"While Flatley organized his Reapers in San Diego, a powerful
Japanese armada set out on an expedition intended to crown Nipponese
conquests in the Far East. Instead, it ended in a rout and gave our
forces one of the greatest naval victories in modern times." (pg 51,
lead paragraph to Chapter 3 - ‘Midway')
The manuscript for this book, to my knowledge, was reviewed by LtCdr
Jimmy Flatley prior to publication. I seriously doubt that if the
events were not as described he would have allowed their inclusion.
>From what I've always heard from those who served with him, to have
allowed these passages to be presented in falsehood would not have been
his way of doing business. Also, no where in Chapter 3 - ‘Midway',
does the word "Vejtasa" appear, yet in Chapter 1 - ‘Fire Test' and
Chapter 2 - ‘The Reapers are Born', there is considerable reference, as
shown above and, of course, in recitation of his combat experiences at
the Battle of the Coral Sea. Frequency of reference doesn't prove much,
but considering the ink spent on Lt Vejtasa in Chapters 1 and 2, it
would seem odd that any participation in Midway not be mentioned.
At the least, it is some small comfort that the events as they unfolded
saved Flatley, Vejtasa, and Faulkner from the disaster that befell the
Neosho.
Oh yes, and Stanley Johnston ... a newspaper type ... he was aboard the
Lexington during the Battle of Coral Sea and returned stateside aboard
the same transport as Flatley and company. Johnston was a funny guy
with some funny priorities and could, at times, be quite irresponsible.
But even when being irresponsible, he pretty much stuck to the facts as
they were available. Is a 1943 account, by an individual who rode the
same transport back to the west coast as did Lt Vejtasa and who then
chronicled the history of VF-10, contemporary enough?
Regarding Condition 2 (Lt Vejtasa was present at the Battle of Midway,
serving as a pilot assigned to the USS Yorktown, landing on the
Enterprise after the Yorktown was damaged) and Condition 3 (Lt Vejtasa
scored a bomb hit on a Japanese carrier at the Battle of Midway):
I have carefully reviewed the available contemporary accounts of the
battle, leaving aside, for the moment, books, since you question their
veracity, and concentrating on xeroxed copies of the ACTUAL after action
reports of the two SBD squadrons aboard the Yorktown during the battle.
The two SBD squadrons aboard the Yorktown, for those not in the know,
were VB-5 and VB-3.
Let us look at VB-5: VB-5 was temporarily redesignated as VS-5 for the
period of this deployment. We should not, therefore, confuse this
squadron with the actual VS-5 whose personnel and aircraft were
disembarked from the Yorktown, replaced by VB-3, and were
to remain behind at Pearl Harbor (clearly, not a debatable point since
there were only the 2 SBD squadrons, VB-5 and VB-3, on the Yorktown).
My sources (not books, but folks who were on the scene) tell me that the
VB-5 folks took some exception to this redesignation, i.e. they were
miffed, to say the least. To some extent, the VB-5 redesignation to
VS-5 has clouded some early accounts of the battle.
VB-5's role in the Battle of Midway was pretty straight forward, their
primary task was scouting. It was a two plane section of VB-5, led by
Lt Sam Adams, that located the Hiryu on the afternoon of 4 June. Adams'
section was one of 5 two plane sections that were searching for the last
Japanese carrier (or for all they knew at the time, carriers). This
search was a 100 degree arc from roughly 280° to 20° (T) in 20° search
arcs, distance 200 miles. The search was launched in conjunction with a
CAP rotation and shortly before the returning aircraft from the morning
strike on the Japanese carriers arrived back at the Task Force.
Rather than leave the remaining VB-5 SBD's on the deck and complicate
the recovery of the relieved CAP and the returning strike aircraft,
these planes were struck below. Pictures taken on the hangar deck
during the unsuccessful attempt to salvage the Yorktown clearly show
these SBDs, and other aircraft as well. These SBDs were lost with the
ship and their pilots and crewmen returned to Pearl Harbor on the USS
Fulton with the rest of the Yorktown survivors who didn't have the
advantage of an airplane to deposit them on another carrier. Of the
ten search planes, 8 landed on the Enterprise and 2 on the Hornet.
Although you seem to look with disfavor on the published post war
accounts, modern research by Dr. Robert Cressman, who, I believe, is
with the Naval Historical Center in Washington DC, based upon reviews
of Navy archives and interviews with participants, determined that the
pilots in this scouting mission were (by section, 280° to 20°): Lt
Short and Ltjg Horenburger, Lt Adams and Lt Dickson, Ltjg Berger and
Ltjg Berry, Lt Nielsen and Ens Preston, and Lt(jg) Christie with Lt(jg)
McDowell. Ten planes ... ten pilots ... no Vejtasa. Cressman wrote the
book "That Gallant Ship" about the USS Yorktown and was a participating
author in what is probably one of the most complete and accurate
recounting of the Battle of Midway, "A Glorious Page in Our History".
So, according to your various statements, Lt Vejtasa, while assigned to
a Yorktown squadron, successfully attacked a Japanese carrier and then
landed on the Enterprise after the attack (I presume here you mean
after a successful attack on a Japanese carrier ... though you could
mean after the bombing attack on the Yorktown ... doesn't matter in the
long run.) and continued on to Pearl Harbor after the battle aboard that
ship and then hence to San Diego and VF-10.
Well, all the Japanese carriers were attacked on 4 June. Please note
that for the VB-5 operational details here, I am, again, working from a
xerox copy of the actual report, not a book, as written by the CO, Lt
Wallace Short, on 7 June `42. VB-5 did not drop a single bomb or make a
single attack until late in the afternoon of 5 June (and that was just a
destroyer and all their bombs missed). VB-5 conducted no, say again,
no, ... not one ... attack on any Japanese carrier during the Battle of
Midway. Any VB-5 aircraft aloft at the time the carrier strike groups
arrived back at the US carriers, or while the Japanese were dive
bombing the Yorktown, were in the 10 plane scout mission and moving
away from the Task Force, not landing. And finally, none of the VB-5
aircraft from the afternoon search that landed on the Enterprise was
piloted by Lt Vejtasa. Based on this evidence, it can only be concluded
that your conditions surrounding the events cannot be met through the
possibility of an assignment of Lt Vejtasa to VB-5. Short, while not
actually listing pilots and aircraft, is careful to note significant
events (such as Adams' locating of the Hiryu) and the personnel
involved.
Unless you can provide insight into some compelling reason why Short
would choose to deliberately falsify his report and both leave out Lt
Vejtasa AND the credit for a successful attack on a Japanese carrier, I
believe we have to accept his version as genuine. Unless you can come
up with some reason why the surviving search pilots would band together
and make up a task organization that, while conforming to USN records,
deliberately omits Lt Vejtasa's presence for all posterity, Dr.
Cressman's roster of the scout mission's pilots remains valid.
Incidently, as an aside, with a little secondary research, it is
possible to assign bureau numbers to the VB-5 aircraft (and VB-3 for
that matter). A good place to start would be the site I recommended to
you during our exchange of 11 Dec 99 in another newsgroup:
http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/enhanced.html
where the appendices not only provide lists of pilots and crewmen, but
the known dispositions of all the US carrier aircraft. While it is
obviously difficult to always associate a bureau number with a side
number, especially for lost aircraft, we can determine that the
following bureau numbered VB-5 aircraft survived the battle: 4547 (B-1),
4553 (B-16), 4558 (B-2), 4629 (B-3), 4637 (B-13), 4650 (B-7), 4652
(B-4), 4679 (GC), and 4688 (B-11); lost in combat to AA fire on 5 June
was b/n 4634 (B-15, Lt Adams); and lost on board the Yorktown were b/n's
4518, 4530, 4538, 4551, 4559, 4588, 4622, 4683, and 4690. It would be
enlightening to compare bureau numbers of aircraft actually at the
Battle of Midway with whatever you discover in your documentation of
your proof, providing this forum with the results of an examination of
the Vejtasa flight logs.
In your desire to promulgate the truth, I really cannot understand your
reluctance to at least look at this information or other available
sources, some of which are those books which you so readily dismiss,
some of which are written by noted experts in the field and are
considered classics in the genre. (I'm not granting our friend, Stanley
Johnston, the reporter, that ‘expert' appellation, but he is extremely
readable.) I do not understand your reluctance to contact via link from
the above website "The Midway Circular" and ask it's members (who,
combined, probably have a couple of centuries of study devoted to the
topic) the simple two part question: "At the Battle of Midway, to which
squadron was Ltjg Stanley Vejtasa assigned and upon which Japanese
carrier did he score a hit?" I am sure they will be able to quickly and
factually answer your question. Ah, but I digress.
Back to Conditions 2 and 3:
I suppose, at this point, it might be cogent to note that, in the
parlance of the day, VB-5 was a "Yorktown" squadron as opposed to the
other SBD squadron on the Yorktown during the battle, VB-3, which was a
"Saratoga" squadron.
This identification becomes important because in order for Lt Vejtasa to
fly with VB-3 there should have been some orders, either paper or, as in
the case of the VF-42 personnel attached to VF-3, verbal. That sort of
thing would be an unusual event, and undoubtably contemporaneously
commented upon, just as LtCdr Thach comments on performance of the VF-42
contingent in his VF-3 AAR, 12 June `42, . Thach even breaks out the
combat results (credited claims) by squadron, VF-3 or VF-42. This
practice can be seen from a xerox copy of the actual VF-3 AAR and an
actual ‘period piece' carbon of a document, "VF-3 Partial Bag" (undated,
but according to the VF-3 XO at Midway, RAdm, then Ltjg, Bill Leonard,
it was prepared circa 6-7 Jun `42), and lists the known credits of the
Yorktown VF pilots then on the USS Hornet, noting the parent squadron
for each pilot. RAdm Leonard had been in VF-42 since March, `41 when it
was formed from VS-41 where he was already assigned. VF-42 had been
continuously aboard the Yorktown since June, `41 and VF-42 pilots made
up 59% of VF-3, overall, and 64% of VF-3 pilots flying at Midway. Just
as he had flown the last CAP over the abandoned Lexington the month
before, Leonard flew the last CAP over the abandoned Yorktown as the
sun went down on 4 June ‘42. The point, of course, is that pilots
temporarily assigned, by the evidence, are usually noted.
The VB-3 Midway AAR situation is interesting. Actually, there are two
AAR's for the squadron. I have, and use here, xerox copies of the
originals of both of them. The first, and the most often cited, was
written by the XO, Lt DeWitt Shumway on 10 June `42. This report was
written in the absence of the CO, LtCdr Max Leslie who had ditched and
had been recovered, but was not with the squadron. Lt Cdr Leslie also
wrote a report on 7 June `42 that is mostly a personal narrative account
bearing just on the morning attack on the Japanese carriers and is less
often cited. Quite a few researchers, in my experience, are unaware of
it's existence. Both of these reports are quite detailed and Shumway's
is exquisitely so. Shumway's report lists the task organization for
every attack mission the squadron makes over the three day period,
showing side numbers, pilots, and radiogunners, by division and section.
Without boring everyone with a complete recounting of VB-3's activities
in the three days of the Battle of Midway, suffice to say, the squadron
was solely responsible for the loss of the Soryu and provided a major
part of the destruction rained on the Hiryu. Nor shall I list the names
of the pilots in each attack mission, except to give general task
organization composition (anyone who wants a pilot/crew and side number
list need only ask):
— Morning carrier attack, 4 June: 18 aircraft/pilots/crewmen listed;
accounting for the entire squadron; Lt Vejtasa is not among them.
— Afternoon carrier attack, 4 June: 15 aircraft/pilots/crewmen listed;
including one from VB-6 (Enterprise), Lt Vejtasa is not among them.
— Afternoon destroyer attack, 5 June: 10 aircraft/pilots/crewmen
listed; Lt Vejtasa is not among them.
— Afternoon cruiser attack, 6 June: 10 aircraft/pilots/crewmen listed;
Lt Vejtasa is not among them.
Again, unless you can provide insight into some compelling reason why
Shumway would choose to deliberately falsify his report and leave out Lt
Vejtasa, I believe we also have to accept his version as genuine.
And, come to think of it, exactly which Japanese carrier do you believe
was hit by Lt Vejtasa? You never said in any of your posts. Further, to
my knowledge, those carrier dive bomber pilots at Midway who carried out
successful attacks on the Japanese carriers were awarded the Navy
Cross. I don't believe you'll find reference to Capt Vejtasa being
awarded the Navy Cross for action at Midway. Why would they leave him
out? Had he been at Midway and hit a Japanese carrier, don't you think
our correspondent Johnston would mention it in his story of the Grim
Reapers? For that matter, wouldn't naval aviation history, in general
(not to mention the US Navy), make a big deal about anyone who managed
to score hits on enemy carriers at both Coral Sea and Midway? The
silence about anyone achieving that accomplishment is complete.
Let's see ... oh yes ... you also wrote about " ...very precise
information concerning the Yorktown's gunnery officer that flew
along in the back seat of his SBD at Midway." Yes, Vejtasa flew a
mission with an officer in the back seat. That officer was credited
with damaging a Japanese fighter with the free .30 cal. during the
flight. It was not, however, the Yorktown's Gunnery Officer, LtCdr E.J.
Davis. The gent in the back seat was Cdr W.G. Schindler, who was
Fletcher's staff Gunnery and Training Officer ... staff, not ship's
company. Oh, and this event took place on 7 May `42 ... at Coral Sea.
You have, again, switched your battles.
The evidence of Lt Vejtasa participating in the Battle of Midway simply
isn't there. The evidence that he was at San Diego in VF-10 during that
time period is there.
VF-10 was officially formed on 3 June 1942 at San Diego. Present, at
the least, were LtCdr Flatley, Lt's Vejtasa and Faulkner, and Ens' Vois
and Dowden (see Johnston, above, that's five).
It is more than well and good to honor, respect, and remember all these
brave men, God knows we've few enough to look up to in our present times
and I fear for the future generations. I suspect everyone, in their own
chosen field of study, has their own little pantheon of heroes, those
they are quick to raise as an shining example and, equally quick, to
defend before perceived slights. I have my own little pantheon of
naval aviators I deem worthy of more than just passing respect, some
I've known for as long as I can remember; others I met as a child,
adolescent, or adult; some are long time family friends, some I've met
more than once; and some I have never met at all. Most, sadly, have now
passed on. It might surprise you to learn that I number Capt Stanley
Vejtasa as one of those worthy of special note. Although I freely admit
I don't recall ever meeting him, I'm absolutely sure we have quite a few
mutual acquaintances. My purpose is not to denigrate his distinguished
career, but rather to clarify what appears to be some misconceptions or
imprecise interpretations on your part.
>From my perspective, you are putting words in Capt Vejtasa's mouth and
I'm not sure he's aware of it or even appreciative. Most of, if not
all, of the naval aviators I've known from this period in time are, or
were, willing to take credit for what they accomplished ... almost to a
man, the ones I know or knew or knew of, never claimed to have done
something they hadn't and were quick to correct any false impressions.
This is true of those in the cache of ‘my pantheon'. There were just too
many people around who knew the true stories. As their numbers get
fewer and fewer, now is not the time to raise new legends.
You should note, sir, that through out this entire post I have not
questioned the veracity nor the honor of Capt Vejtasa in any way.
Throughout, I refer to your statements. It is you who makes these
claims. You have never provided an attributable reference or solid
piece of evidence. I have never heard, except from you, that Capt
Vejtasa has made these claims.
The irony of it all is that as you throw out the bits and pieces of the
true story of Capt Vejtasa, which of itself is fascinating and more than
worthy of repeating, you move those bits and pieces around to make them
occur at different places and different points in time, and create an
inaccurate depiction of the events that detracts from both Capt Vejtasa
and those who really were at the Battle of Midway. How sad, so very
sad.
Thank you for your comments.
Regards,
Rich
RAL
on a copy of the Early and Pioneer Naval Aviators Association's "The
Golden Eagles Chronolog". This is a loose leaf document that probably
runs 700 or more pages and consists of biographical sketches of member
naval aviators in a standard format. Significantly, the vast majority
of the bio sketches are/were written by the individuals themselves. In
the Emeritus Members section, one of the last biographies (since they're
in alphbetical order) is that of Captain Stanley W. "Swede" Vejtasa.
Since the photo accompanying the text is dated 1996, and I know that the
association made a big push in the early to mid 1990's to get a lot of
the infomation on paper, it's probably safe to say that the bio was
written sometime around 1996. From reading, it is quickly obvious from
the syntax that it is written by none other than Captain Vejtasa,
himself.
To quote from this document:
"Date of Designation: 8/14/39
"Dates of Active Duty: 6/1/38 to 7/1/70
"Total Flight Hours: 5267
"Carrier Landings-Fixed Wing: 478
"Approximate Flight Hours:
Jet - 1023 Prop - 3786 VF/VA - 4240
Helo - 22 VR/VP - 123"
"Combat Tours:
"WWII VS-5 USS Yorktown (CV-5);
Makin Island attack (31 Jan 1942);
Salamoa-Lae attack (10 Mar 1942);
Guadalcanal-Tulagi (4 May 1942);
Attacked and sunk Japanese carrier SHOHO in
the Bismark Sea (7 May 1942);
Battle of the Coral Sea (8 May 1942);
All above action while flying SBD Aircraft.
"WWII VF-10 (F4F-4 aircraft) USS Enterprise (CV-6);
Battle of Santa Cruz (25-26 Oct 1942).
Combat Air Patrol (F4F04's) - shot down a four
engined Kawanishi patrol plane (13 Nov 1942).
Active in the Guadalcanal area until April 1943."
"Duty Assignment Chronology
6/38 - 7/39 Flight Training NAS Pensacola FL
8/39 - 5/42 Pilot, Scouting Squadron 5, USS Yorktown (CV-5)
5/42 - 7/43 VF-10 Pilot, USS Enterprise (CV-6)
8/43 - 4/45 CO, VF-97 NAS Atlantic City
5/45 - 10-45 Commander Air Group 44"
... And so on, to ...
"9/68 - 7/70 Chief of Staff, Commander 11th Naval
District, San Diego, CA"
"Significant Career Events
"(1) 7 May, 1942. On mission in which the SoHO was sunk,
I had Cdr Shindler in my back seat (SBD). He fired at
Zeros from that position and took pictures of the sinking
of the Japanese carrier.
"(2) 8 May 1942. I fought a lengthy action with several
Zeros after they had shot down four of our eight SBD's
On Anti-VT patrol.
"(3) 25 October 1942. Battle of Santa Cruz - I shot down
seven Japanese aircraft -- 2 dive bombers and 5 torpedo
aircraft."
End quotes.
No where in this document does Captain Vejtasa even write the
word "Midway". There are no claims to his participation in that
battle. He is quite clear on the sequence of events in listing his
combat tours ... VS-5 through Coral Sea, VF-10 for carrier actions
around the Solomons. In his list of duty assignments there's the
same progression ... Flight School to VS-5 to VF-10 to VF-44
at NAS Atlantic City and so on up to his retirement, especially
the significant 5/42 month/year when he transfers from VS-5 to
VF10. His writings of the significant career events goes from
the Coral Sea in May 1942 directly to Santa Cruz in October 1942.
He does not write of Midway because he wasn't there, nor does he
make any claim thereto.
I believe him.
Regards to all,
Rich