Seeking opinion's on Guy Sayer's book
Frontsoldaten
autobiography about a young half-German half-French man fighting for the German
army in Russia. Anyway, I learnt that there was considerable debate on the
book's authenticity. Can anyone give me further information? I just want to
develop an accurate perspective on its contents. Thanks.
Arminius
Fom I know of, living in France for now ten years, debate was more related
to a man's choice of being rather german than french, at a time when it
was all to clear that Germany had lost the war...( His veracity was never
questioned within circles of east front vets [both french and german] ).
The author has written a series of well appreciated comics but under a new
name of course !
--
Sincerly,
John.
Share what you know, learn what you don't
tom adkins
fronts...@aol.com (Frontsoldaten) wrote:
>I learnt that there was considerable debate on the
> book's authenticity. Can anyone give me further information? I just
>want to develop an accurate perspective on its contents. Thanks.
I've heard this, too, and it has c ome up for discussion, though I
haven't seen it recently. A search in Deja might find some old threads
on it.
Incidentally, I read a book entitled same as you callsign.
Fritz, the author, used whole passages from Sajer's book - I felt like
I was reading Sajer, not Fritz, he plagiarized so much!
tom
--
"Hitler has shown that Hell is still here on earth.
He has, in fact, taken the lid off Hell, and we have all looked into it.
That is his service to the Human Race." -Field Marshal Smuts, 1944
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Robert
Arminius wrote in message <39c3f33c...@news.dialix.com.au>...
>Well,
>Fom I know of, living in France for now ten years, debate was more related
>to a man's choice of being rather german than french, at a time when it
>was all to clear that Germany had lost the war...( His veracity was never
>questioned within circles of east front vets [both french and german] ).
Exactly- the best sign that the book is authentic is that it was released in
Germany before in the US, and not a single ex-German soldier stepped forward
to call the book a fake. That only came after some American historian found
some inaccuracies that can easily be attributed to bad memories. E.g. the
author said his Grossdeutshland insigna was on the wrong sleeve. The book
strikes me as totally authentic- if Sajer is a fraud, he's a damn good one.
At the very least, I'm certain he was on the eastern front with the German
army in some capacity. It's possible he stretched the truth like many vets
do in telling war stories, but I don't have much reason to suspect even
this.
Robert
Martin Rapier
<8o4tc9$g2g4$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>...
> Exactly- the best sign that the book is authentic is that it was released in
> Germany before in the US, and not a single ex-German soldier stepped forward
> to call the book a fake. That only came after some American historian found
I believe there is some speculation that Sajer served in a Waffen-SS
division rather than Grossdeutschland, but I don't think anyone doubts he
was there.
If every memoir which contained minor factual inaccuracies was a fake, then
most of the memoirs available are fakes!
Cheers
Martin.
V-Man
>do in telling war stories,
Speaking *as* a Veteran of the US Military, if not one of combat, the only
stretching of the truth that one would put in a *monograph* would be
intentional ones, unless the book was *meant* to be an example of stretching
the truth in war stories (a book on same).
I've been out for 13 years, and the details I can remember that I can
relate, I remember accurately.
V-Man A Knight is sworn to Valor, His Heart knows only Virtue
=/\= His Blade defends the Weak, His Word speaks only Truth
(-o-) His Wrath undoes the Wicked
<*>
RLA99
Army History magazine, 3 to 4 years ago. He did a lot of research on who
Sajer is and his credibility. Sajer is for real, and so is his book. People
who dwell pn the errors in the book overlook problems of: German being
Sajer's second language; subsequent translation errors in the text; editors
possibly "correcting" things (like division name cuffbands on the SS side
versus Wehrmacht side?); possible changes by the author of events so as to
remove himself from sites of war crimes (would you want to run the risk of
being deported to the Soviet Union to face charges for events you had no
control over?).
RA
Arminius
After spending quite some time on the net looking for pro and against
articles,
I, as a modest net user, have found that more than 90% of net refs see the
book as "real" and even promote it's reading for all those that want to
understand warfare espescially land warfare. I should had I have not taken
in my account book sellers's opinions !
I spent this time in answering because the book shape my view on war and
influenced my decision to join the armed forces of my country...
Sincerly,
John.
Guy Tipton
Robert wrote:
>
> Exactly- the best sign that the book is authentic is that it was released in
> Germany before in the US, and not a single ex-German soldier stepped forward
> to call the book a fake.
Good point, contrast that to what has been written in Germany about the
Sven Hansell (sp) books. This is second hand, but when I mentioned the
above named authoor to some German wargaming buddies of mine they were
contemptious. Even described them as neo-nazi trash. I still got stuck
with playing the soviets. :)
Guy Tipton
Robert
Martin Rapier wrote in message
<01c00e72$9185cea0$f811...@ad1mer.shef.ac.uk>...
>
>I believe there is some speculation that Sajer served in a Waffen-SS
>division rather than Grossdeutschland, but I don't think anyone doubts he
>was there.
Aha- that's a very good guess indeed- wouldn't be a bit surprised if that
were true. Some of the French SS soldiers were among the most fanatical- a
good number of them died defending Berlin against the Russians.
Robert
Teruzo Saigo
<m.ra...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> I believe there is some speculation that Sajer served in a Waffen-SS
> division rather than Grossdeutschland, but I don't think anyone doubts he
> was there.
I just purchased his book in the US, never heard of this controversy...
but the cover of his book "Forgotten Soldier" has a German landsers wearing
a Waffen-SS helmet insignia.
T.
David Thornley
1. The publishers have good reason to think that Sajer served in an
SS division.
2. The publishers used a photo of a German infantryman without worrying
about little details like insignia.
3. The publishers thought the book would sell better with an SS picture
than a Heer picture.
4. The publishers thought that Grossdeutschland was an SS division.
I think (1) the least likely of these possibilities.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Gerard
<scou...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Incidentally, I read a book entitled same as you callsign.
> Fritz, the author, used whole passages from Sajer's book - I felt like
> I was reading Sajer, not Fritz, he plagiarized so much!
This is a very serious charge. Has any study or research akin to "The
Forgotten Soldier: Unmasked" by Douglas Nash in Army History magazine, been
done.
Strangely, I have yet to read the book "The Forgotten Soldier." So far
I've read a handful of accounts by Germans on WWII:
"Soldat"- not limited to WWII fighting years with account of captivity in
USSR
"It Never Snows in September"- covers Market-Garden
"Panzer Commander"- like Soldat in coverage of captivity in USSR
"Fighting in Hell"- perspectives of German generals on fighting on the
Eastern Front
transcripts of interviews of various German pilots-
Can anyone provide a fuller list of English language accounts of Germans in
WWII?
Jeff N
>
> I just purchased his book in the US, never heard of this
controversy...
> but the cover of his book "Forgotten Soldier" has a German landsers
wearing
> a Waffen-SS helmet insignia.
>
>
I think you're describing the picture of the lone soldier leaning
against a tree with his Mauser in his right hand. That picture has
been published a few times in other texts. Obviously a publishers
choice.
Jeff N
Martin Rapier
<39d9874b...@news.dialix.com.au>...
> "Soldat"- not limited to WWII fighting years with account of captivity in
> USSR
> "It Never Snows in September"- covers Market-Garden
> "Panzer Commander"- like Soldat in coverage of captivity in USSR
> "Fighting in Hell"- perspectives of German generals on fighting on the
> Eastern Front
> transcripts of interviews of various German pilots-
>
> Can anyone provide a fuller list of English language accounts of Germans
in
> WWII?
Gosh, there are zillions, a few which I've read:
'The First and the Last' by Adolf Galland
'I Flew for the Fuhrer' by Heinz Knocke
'Stuka Pilot' by Hans Rudel
'Panzer Battles' by Von Mellenthin
'Panzer Leader' by Heinz Guderian
'Lost Victories' by Von Manstein
'With Rommel in the Desert' by Hans Schmidt
'Panzer Commander' & 'It Never Snows in September' you've already
mentioned.
The real problem is finding English langiage accounts of Russians in WWII!
I've only got Rokossovkys book 'A Soldiers Duty'.
Cheers
Martin.
Gerard
<m.ra...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> The real problem is finding English langiage accounts
Ahh, only for those not fortunate enough to read in Russian.
> of Russians in WWII! I've only got Rokossovkys book 'A Soldiers Duty'.
Look up Dmitri Loza on Amazon, he's got a few books out. By and large most
of the Russian language stuff on the GPW which US libraries carry is
Soviet-politically correct. Still interesting enough to read just make
sure you have some salt handy.
While translated books are short you'll still find enough blurbs/analytical
pieces about the GPW in English language sources like Carlisle Barracks'
Parameters, Frank Cass' The Journal of Slavic Military Studies, the Foreign
Military Studies Office (FMSO) or in Russian-language journals like the
"Voenno-istoritcheskiy zhurnal" or official RF periodicals like "Krasnaya
Zvezda" or "Shchit".
BTW- I corresponded recently with David Glantz who now informs me that the
Central Archives sections he was working in are now closed. So it might be
awhile until further analysis is available. However he did tell me he
still has material he has yet to go through so may be the CA will be open
when he finishes what he has.
--
I could also be wrong, I've been full of crap before.