Goering Arrested by The SS??
Prisoner at War
Were the SS actually going to shoot him?
Details, please!
lesliem...@netscape.net
> Was Goering actually arrested by the SS??
He was arrested on Hitler's orders.
> Were the SS actually going to shoot him?
If Bormann got his way, probably.
> Details, please!
from http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goering.html
--Begin Excerpt--
When Hitler declared that he would remain in the Berlin bunker to the
end, Goering, who had already left for Bavaria, misinterpreted this as
an abdication and requested that he be allowed to take over at once;
he was ignominiously dismissed from all his posts, expelled from the
Party and arrested. Shortly afterwards, on 9 May 1945, Goering was
captured by forces of the American Seventh Army and, to his great
surprise, put on trial at Nuremberg in 1946.
--End Excerpt--
Prisoner at War
<lesliemills2...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
> <SNIP>
That's just the thing: the cable-TV movie "Nuremberg" depicted Goering
giving himself up, rather than being captured, and it depicted his
wife as confiding to the Americans that they had been arrested on
Hitler's orders...so how did Goering escape his arrest to surrender to
the Americans -- if this movie is to be believed?
What were the conditions under which he had been confined by the
Nazis?
lesliem...@netscape.net
wrote:
(stuff deleted)
> That's just the thing: the cable-TV movie "Nuremberg" depicted Goering
> giving himself up, rather than being captured,
It was a bit of both. Goering sent a letter indicating his
willingness to surrender to the US. Brigadier General Stack led a
team to find and formally capture him.
> and it depicted his
> wife as confiding to the Americans that they had been arrested on
> Hitler's orders...so how did Goering escape his arrest to surrender to
> the Americans -- if this movie is to be believed?
>From http://www.kwanah.com/36division/ps/ps0277.htm
--Begin Excerpt--
Goering was put under arrest and guarded by an SS unit. In a few days,
telegraphic orders were received to shoot Goering, his family and all
his staff. This was a large order, even for Nazi Germany, and the S.S.
commander sought assurance the order was really from Hitler. Then
Berchtesgaden was bombed by the British so they moved him south of
Salzburg, into Austria, still under arrest. Then two companies of
Luftwaffe, (Air Force), troops rescued and released him. Then he
started northwest in an attempt to contact American troops. All very
dramatic and some of it was true.
--End Excerpt--
> What were the conditions under which he had been confined by the
> Nazis?
>From the sound of things, relatively comfortable, considering the
dismemberment Germany was undergoing.
Prisoner at War
<lesliemills2...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
> It was a bit of both. Goering sent a letter indicating his
> willingness to surrender to the US. Brigadier General Stack led a
> team to find and formally capture him.
Amazing! Big-wigs really can get anything they want! I mean,
considering all the commotion that was going on at the time, a letter
was managed...how did anyone ever authenticate such a thing?? Or did
they just decide to take it all on faith...whew, this sounds like an
interesting movie script: "Saving Marshal Goering!"
> Fromhttp://www.kwanah.com/36division/ps/ps0277.htm
>
> --Begin Excerpt--
>
> Goering was put under arrest and guarded by an SS unit. In a few days,
> telegraphic orders were received to shoot Goering, his family and all
> his staff. This was a large order, even for Nazi Germany, and the S.S.
> commander sought assurance the order was really from Hitler. Then
> Berchtesgaden was bombed by the British so they moved him south of
> Salzburg, into Austria, still under arrest. Then two companies of
> Luftwaffe, (Air Force), troops rescued and released him. Then he
> started northwest in an attempt to contact American troops. All very
> dramatic and some of it was true.
>
> --End Excerpt--
OH MY GOD!!!
HEY, THIS IS SO COOL...GREAT ACTION MOVIE MATERIAL HERE!! Any
shooting involved?? Casualties??? Was this Fallschirmjaeger versus
SS??? Wow..."SS-Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" against FJ "Hermann
Goering"...dramatic indeed!
But, hey, what do you mean by "some of it was true"???
> From the sound of things, relatively comfortable, considering the
>
> dismemberment Germany was undergoing.
I wonder if something similar had happened to Himmler, who was also
subject to arrest on Hitler's orders...?
lesliem...@netscape.net
(stuff deleted, regarding Goering's offer of surrender)
> Amazing! Big-wigs really can get anything they want!
Not really. Goering wanted to surrender to Eisenhower, and have a
hand in leading Post-war Germany. What he got was a Brigadier
General, imprisonment, and a death sentence.
> I mean,
> considering all the commotion that was going on at the time, a letter
> was managed...how did anyone ever authenticate such a thing??
For one thing, the courier was a recognized aide of Goering: Colonel
von Brauschitz.
> Or did
> they just decide to take it all on faith...whew, this sounds like an
> interesting movie script: "Saving Marshal Goering!"
It seemed reasonable enough to me. You did read the link, right?
> > From http://www.kwanah.com/36division/ps/ps0277.htm
> > --Begin Excerpt--
> > Goering was put under arrest and guarded by an SS unit. In a few days,
> > telegraphic orders were received to shoot Goering, his family and all
> > his staff. This was a large order, even for Nazi Germany, and the S.S.
> > commander sought assurance the order was really from Hitler. Then
> > Berchtesgaden was bombed by the British so they moved him south of
> > Salzburg, into Austria, still under arrest. Then two companies of
> > Luftwaffe, (Air Force), troops rescued and released him. Then he
> > started northwest in an attempt to contact American troops. All very
> > dramatic and some of it was true.
> > --End Excerpt--
> OH MY GOD!!!
> HEY, THIS IS SO COOL...GREAT ACTION MOVIE MATERIAL HERE!! Any
> shooting involved?? Casualties??? Was this Fallschirmjaeger versus
> SS??? Wow..."SS-Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" against FJ "Hermann
> Goering"...dramatic indeed!
> But, hey, what do you mean by "some of it was true"???
Read the link. It was Shaft's account. Evidently, he had reason to
take anything Goering said with a grain of salt. Given Goering's
history, I don't find fault with that.
> > From the sound of things, relatively comfortable, considering the
> > dismemberment Germany was undergoing.
> I wonder if something similar had happened to Himmler, who was also
> subject to arrest on Hitler's orders...?
Dunno. IIRC, Himmler took the disguise of a Gestapo agent, which
should illustrate how removed from reality he was at that point. At
that stage of the war, it is a bit like a moose wearing a deer costume
during hunting season.
Prisoner at War
<lesliemills2...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
> Not really. Goering wanted to surrender to Eisenhower, and have a
> hand in leading Post-war Germany. What he got was a Brigadier
> General, imprisonment, and a death sentence.
Well, all things considered...I mean, you'd think people have better
things to do than run errands! That German military really was
something, then....
> For one thing, the courier was a recognized aide of Goering: Colonel
> von Brauschitz.
Brauchitz, Brauchitsch...I'm getting my names mixed up here.
> It seemed reasonable enough to me. You did read the link, right?
Yeah, but how would anyone "authenticate" it, like did they have a
pack of playing cards, a la Bush's Iraq War, with photos of all those
wanted, and this aide von Brauschitz was on it.
Well, I guess there would have been no harm in checking it out, and
nobody would try to lie about something like this (what would be the
point?)....
BTW, something else from that link: it mentioned SS General Fegelein,
who I thought was shot by Hitler for trying to escape Berlin!
> Read the link. It was Shaft's account. Evidently, he had reason to
> take anything Goering said with a grain of salt. Given Goering's
> history, I don't find fault with that.
Yeah, it was Shaft's account -- what I'd meant is, I wonder what the
"some" refers to....
So did the Luftwaffe really fight the SS to rescue Goering???
> Dunno. IIRC, Himmler took the disguise of a Gestapo agent, which
> should illustrate how removed from reality he was at that point. At
> that stage of the war, it is a bit like a moose wearing a deer costume
> during hunting season.
See, I read that he took the guise of an ordinary Heer sergeant, and I
also read that there's speculation he was sold out by one of the two
people accompanying him....
lesliem...@netscape.net
wrote:
(stuff deleted, on the subject of sending a German Colonel to carry
Goering's offer of surrender)
> Well, all things considered...I mean, you'd think people have better
> things to do than run errands!
As you stated previously, Goering wanted his offer to be taken
seriously. Using a high-ranking officer who hopefully would be
recognized by Allied intelligence to carry the offer was a step
towards that.
>That German military really was
> something, then....
Check out the motivation for each side:
For Goering, he by now knows that Hitler has ordered his execution.
He is also aware that the German war effort is doomed. His best bet
is to surrender to the Allies and retain some influence in running
postwar Germany. Granted, he was delusional to think the Allies
needed or even wanted his help in that regard, but it was still a
better option than to stick to what was left of a nation whose leader
had probably ordered him to be executed.
For the Allies, they gain a Nazi bigwig, who can possibly prompt more
mass-scale surrenders of the remaining German armed forces, thus
minimizing Allied casualties. That's worth risking a jeep or two with
a Brigadier-General.
(stuff deleted)
> > It seemed reasonable enough to me. You did read the link, right?
> Yeah, but how would anyone "authenticate" it, like did they have a
> pack of playing cards, a la Bush's Iraq War, with photos of all those
> wanted, and this aide von Brauschitz was on it.
Allied intelligence probably has a list of enemy officers along with
whatever information about them on record. It would not be at the
same speed and precision as electronic forms, but it is still a
straightforward matter of matching his face with a photograph.
Once they identified the courier, it is a logical assumption that the
message he bore would be genuine.
> Well, I guess there would have been no harm in checking it out, and
> nobody would try to lie about something like this (what would be the
> point?)....
> BTW, something else from that link: it mentioned SS General Fegelein,
> who I thought was shot by Hitler for trying to escape Berlin!
Do you mean this:
(from http://www.kwanah.com/36division/ps/ps0277.htm)
--Begin Excerpt--
This man was Colonel Fegelein, a brother of S.S. Gruppenfuhrer Hermann
Fegelein, who was Liaison Officer for Himmler with Hitler, and married
to Eva Braun's sister. Goering and Himmler were bitter enemies and
Goering was fearful of what Fegelein might do that night.
--End Excerpt
General Fegelein was the one executed, but his brother was the one
Shaft was writing about.
(stuff deleted)
> So did the Luftwaffe really fight the SS to rescue Goering???
Pretend you are an SS guard. You have put what used to be the #2 man
in Germany under arrest, and have received orders to execute him which
you have reason to doubt. Before you can get confirmation, a company
or two of German soldiers arrive stating you are to hand over your
prisoner to their custody.
The way I see it, you can choose from four options:
1) Stall, possibly wait for more of your men. This works until the
company facing you grows impatient, then you have to choose between:
2) Execute, or threaten to execute, your prisoner. This is not likely
to impress the soldiers facing you. If they are acting against
Hitler's orders, they are more likely to shoot you out of hand, and if
they are acting on Hitler's orders, you are more likely to be tried
and executed.
3) Fight it out. Note that the soldiers are likely to be better armed
than you are, and may have taken the time to place a sniper or two in
inconvenient locations. The soldiers probably outnumber you as well,
and are probably able to isolate you. The results from such an
altercation sound a lot like option #2.
4) Give up the prisoner. This gives the soldiers no reason to shoot
you, and if they do not happen to be acting on Hitler's behest, you
can later claim coersion, or at least being duped by official-looking
papers.
Option #4 seems very popular to me, particularly when the alternatives
seem to ultimately antagonize other people nominally on the same side
as you are.
> > Dunno. IIRC, Himmler took the disguise of a Gestapo agent, which
> > should illustrate how removed from reality he was at that point. At
> > that stage of the war, it is a bit like a moose wearing a deer costume
> > during hunting season.
> See, I read that he took the guise of an ordinary Heer sergeant, and I
> also read that there's speculation he was sold out by one of the two
> people accompanying him....
>From http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/death/Britton_report.html
--Begin Excerpt--
Himmler had documents purporting to show that he was "Ex Sergeant
Heinrich Hitzinger of a Special Armoured Company, attached to the
Secret Field Police, demobilised on 3 May 1945". This curiously
unsuitable cover-name meant that he was still in an automatic arrest
category. He wore a civilian jacket, shaved off his moustache, removed
his pince-nez glasses, and donned an eye patch over his left eye.
....
The two escorts in front were clearly military men in long green
overcoats, while the dreaded man-murder himself looked insignificant
in an odd selection of civilian garments with a blue raincoat on top.
To make matters worse, the two officers glanced back from time to time
to ensure that their charge was still with them. This odd trio was
picked up by an alert British infantry patrol, not knowing who they
were, and were brought in to the check point. Here Sergeants Arthur
Britton [author of this postwar report] and Ken Baisbrown of 45 Field
Security Section, and Staff Sergeant John Hogg of 1003 Field Security
Reserve Detachment made out the arrest documents after a quick
scrutiny of the false identity papers, and realisation that all three
were in an automatic arrest category. The true identity of the second
greatest German war criminal of them all did not come to light for
another couple of days.
--End Excerpt--
I was off about him claming officer status. Sorry.