Saving Private Ryan (spoilers: I do not recommend reading if you haven't seen the movie)
Adam
A couple of things...
First of all, great movie. Saw it opening night, went Saturday and bought
the book, read it in two days (you could read it in one if you kept at it, I
read the last half in about 2-3 hours), then went and saw the movie again
yesterday...
Nobody has mentioned the fact that after Caparzo gets it from the German
sniper, there is a scene with the squad marching through a field, and
there's still 8 men???? Oops.
I was confused at first, too. I didn't realize the first time I saw it that
the prisoner they let go after taking the machine gun nest was the same guy
who later knifes Mellish and is shot by Upham. This is why he didn't shoot
Upham on the stairs. He calls Upham by name right before he gets shot, and
it is my belief that Upham shoots him because he is the one that puts the
bullet in Captain Miller. Now that's irony.
I also missed what Miller said to Ryan on the bridge, and so the first time
around the ending seemed sort of hokey. After reading the book, it makes
much more sense now. In case you missed it too, Miller says, "Earn
this...earn it."
I have seen other shows where American medics are armed. Could someone
please enlighten me on whether or not they normally carried weapons or
participated in combat? In the movie Wade never had a gun. And his rank is
listed as T/4. Wasn't it Spec/4?
Being left handed myself, I too noticed Jackson firing left handed. I have
always fired weapons left handed and nobody has ever tried to tell me to do
otherwise. I think it would be very hard for someone to "switch hit" in
that respect (especially a guy like Jackson who grew up in Tennessee with a
gun in his hand).
Name a WW2 movie where the combat occurs over long ranges. In all of them,
it is very close. In some, both sides are lobbing grenades back and forth
when they're no more than twenty feet from each other.
They explained in the movie why a Captain was leading a squad- most of his
company was dead, and the rest were getting absorbed by another company. He
got to hand pick the men he wanted with him. In fact, a lot of the
questions people are asking are explained in the movie. Granted, I have the
benefit of having seen it twice, but with the exception of the
aforementioned, there wasn't much else I missed the first time around.
I agree that we could have done without the part where Reiben almost
mutinies, guys pulling guns on each other, etc. There must be some other
way for him to finally tell the guys where he's from and what he did before
the war. Not that soldiers never fought among themselves, but the scene was
too extreme.
And, if you don't take out a machine gun nest by assaulting it with a squad,
how do you do it? Remember, this is WW2, and not modern combat. The two
are worlds apart, even in small unit tactics.
Adam
Huse, George V., Jr.
[Snip]
> I have seen other shows where American medics are armed. Could someone
> please enlighten me on whether or not they normally carried weapons or
> participated in combat? In the movie Wade never had a gun. And his rank is
> listed as T/4. Wasn't it Spec/4?
WWII was the last war where combat medics went unarmed. They were
considered non-combatants. To knowingly & willingly injure/kill one was
a big no-no. The white armband with the red cross was to alert people
to that fact.
The "T" in the stripes stood for "Technical". The "T" got the stripes
to get the pay grade. They had technical skills but were not considered
to be commanding types, like sergeants. I'm phrasing this badly,
someone please help me here.
Anyway, the "T"'s were forerunners of the Specialist 4-9 grades, a
technical type with special skills, like radio equipment repair.
[Snip]
--
Buzz Huse E-Mail: mailto:buzz...@flash.net
Euless, Texas, USA Homepage: http://www.flash.net/~buzzhuse/
"These opinions/comments are entirely my own and no one else's."
George Hardy
In article <6ptjme$p7s$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>, "Huse, George V., Jr."
<buzz...@flash.net> says:
>WWII was the last war where combat medics went unarmed.
It is hard to know whether to agree or not. The medics I
know were issued .45 automatics and taught to shoot them.
But, is a Colt .45 "armed"? The number of people who can
shoot one usefully is small, especially among the "doctor
population". Most did not carry them; those guns are darn
heavy, and the thrill of a sidearm grows old very quickly.
GFH
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The Anchor Stone Building Set (Anker-Steinbaukasten) Home Page
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Georg Schwarz
> WWII was the last war where combat medics went unarmed. They were
> considered non-combatants.
my grandfather was working as a doctor (surgeon) on a German front
hospital train, and AFAIK he had a gun (at least he had one to burry at
the end of the war, so maybe it was not part of any regular outfit).
--
Georg Schwarz sch...@physik.tu-berlin.de, ku...@cs.tu-berlin.de
Institut für Theoretische Physik +49 30 314-24254, FAX -21130
Technische Universität Berlin http://home.pages.de/~schwarz/
Georg Schwarz
Ed Walton
> I have seen other shows where American medics are armed. Could someone
> please enlighten me on whether or not they normally carried weapons or
> participated in combat? In the movie Wade never had a gun. And his rank is
> listed as T/4. Wasn't it Spec/4?
That "T" under the chevrons is a Technician "Tech 4". Specialist is a term
from another era. US Medics in WW2 ETO did not carry weapons. PTO is a
different situation.
> And, if you don't take out a machine gun nest by assaulting it with a squad,
> how do you do it? Remember, this is WW2, and not modern combat. The two
> are worlds apart, even in small unit tactics.
Not really. For example the USMC still uses a 13 man squad of 3 fire teams
with the modern equivalent of the BAR as the center of the action for each
team. The current 2 fire team Army squad is an evolution of "half-squad"
tactics that some units cooked up on the field during WW2.
The machinegun nest attack scene was dumb.
#1, there would not have been an MG nest left out in the open unsupported
like that. They would have withdrawn with their unit. Its position was
unteneble.
#2, if for some reason this squad came upon such a machine gun nest
hanging out in the open, it should have been bypassed. The mission of the
squad was to get Ryan, and it was already understrength. This is similar
to a recon patrol in that it's message is not to attack the enemy, but to
gather intel.
#3, The MG nest could have been eliminated by means other than a frontal
assault. This was tactically weak and would not have been done by combat
experienced Rangers. Same for talking and skylining.
Also I missed the part where the squad infilitrated the German lines. In
fact, where were the hedgerows???
--
Ed Walton
Visit the "Lost Battalions" homepage
Reproduction WW2 Uniforms
http://web2.airmail.net/recon36/
JCDrews
to be executed by T-5 Upham -- was also the one who killed Millisch witht he
bayonet; different guys, no?
2. The Technician series of ranks performed the same function as the
1954-present Specilaist grades. But in WWII, th TOP pay grade was "One", not
"Nine". Hence a "Tech Corpora"l was a T-5, three chevrons with a T was T-4,
and a SSgt wtih T was T-3; the next higher ranks was already Tech Sgt (pay
grade two). Techs had no "command" or "leadership" sway over non-Techs. Also,
a Tech's pay grade went with the job -- if a T-3 radioman got bounced from
that job, he could be dropped to PFC, immediately -- this was one way to punish
recalcitrants. "T-3 Jones, you are going to the mailroom, PFC Jones!"
3. Armed Medics: From speaking with vets of Normandy, they say they quickly
abandoned the red cross helmets and armbands because the attracted German fire
-- deliberate German fire. They also quickly picked up at least .45's, for
close-in personal defense. By VN (Korea?), such pistols were SOP. Also in
Normandy, they told me that medics would pick up -- or be given -- captured
German pistols, sometimes more than one. This was so that, if there were
any"Monday morning quarterback" criticisms raised about violating the Geneva
Convention, they could insist that they had just wrestled the gun away from an
attacker and had no option but to shoot the attacker(s) with his/their own gun.
They would carry a second one, hidden in a pocket, as a true last-ditch piece.
BTW I liked the movie's showing how medics often "played god" by deciding to
give wounded troops who they could not save enough Morphine to overdose. The
vets tell me this was very common and no one much complained -- better than
bleeding to death, etc.
4. One of the LUDICROUS things about the movie is the left-handed sniper! In
my experience in the M-1/M-14?M-16 era, EVERYBODY was taught to use their
right-handed weapons with the right hand! If you were a leftie, fine -- sign
paperwork with that hand! Meanwhile, @##$%&*!! learn how to use weapons like
everyone else. Operating a rifle with you non-natural hand is NOT a huge
burden. Further, wasn't Jackson right-EYED? It is not impossible to have
different dominance in an eye and a trigger hand, but is unusual. (I am one --
left-eyed, right handed -- due to an injury to the muscles in my forehead that
help close the eye -- but the Army taught me how!)
5. Another ludicrous thing: HOW did that P-51 kill the Tiger? With a surgical
strike from the tailend of with a can of kerosene? No rocket, no MGs...no 500
lb bomb (no blast or collateral damage or frags seen). Besides, close support
would have been a big misuse of Mustangs when Typhoons and Thunderbolts were
around...
JRakocy
A cousin of mine was a medic in Europe/WWII. He was wounded in France. Says
Germans didn't hesitate to shoot medics
Ed Walton
(JCDrews) wrote:
> 3. Armed Medics:
It was not a violation of the conventions for a medic to have a sidearm.
This was standard practice in the British and German armies. It was not
the practice of the US Army in Europe. There is an instance in "A Time for
Trumpets", about the Battle of the Bulge, where Germans masquarading as US
medics are identified as Germans because they are wearing sidearms. As to
carrying a concealed German piece, this only violates US Army ETO policy,
not the conventions.
> 4. One of the LUDICROUS things about the movie is the left-handed sniper!
Many things in this film were ludicrous, but not necessarily this one.
Generally speaking, there was no special training for US snipers at the
time. The sniper rifle went to the best shot in the platoon. It was up to
the sniper to do his job as he saw fit.
Daniel Rush
I disagree that the part with Rheubin should have been left out.
There were 137 cases of GIs being shot for cowardice and utter
disreguard for orders during World War II in Europe. That fact is a
little known bit of a very large event. Some think that Eddie Slovak was
the only American executed for cowardice and that isn't so.
Gerard
> 1. I do not believe the prisoner they turned loose
already thoroughly discussed. On my second viewing, the SS guy is not the
guy captured at the MG nest or captured at the end.
> 4. One of the LUDICROUS things about the movie is the left-handed sniper!
also discussed previously, one poster said that if the guy was from
Tennessee and then I forget the rest explaining how people shot left handed
despite being taught by the US Army to shoot right handed.
> 5. Another ludicrous thing: HOW did that P-51 kill the Tiger? With a surgical
> strike from the tailend of with a can of kerosene? No rocket, no MGs...no 500
> lb bomb (no blast or collateral damage or frags seen).
No, I didn't see MG's blazing but given the lack of underwing stores we are
forced to assume that it was the MGs in the wings.
> Besides, close support would have been a big misuse of Mustangs when Typhoons and Thunderbolts >were around...
another poster quoted a source saying some Mustang fighter group is
credited with several tank kills on coincidence?) on June 11, 1944, same
day Capt. Miller was killed. Not implausible.
Gerard
Tom &/or Arlene Adkins
> Some think that Eddie Slovak was
> the only American executed for cowardice and that isn't so.
That's what I was always told - if it isn't true, where did this
info come from?
What is your source for the 137? If they were executed, then there
were probably quite a few more who were sentenced to long prison
terms, any comment?
tom
--
++++++++++
* Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
CoE8thLa
>my experience in the M-1/M-14?M-16 era, EVERYBODY was taught to use their
>right-handed weapons with the right hand!
Untrue. In MY experience(2 tours in country) and 6 yrs in the Army, we were
taught to fire however it was more comfortable or accurate. The main problem
with firing an M-161a, was that the cartridge ejected to the right and
bacwards. So that if you didnt fasten the top button on your shirt, you would
sometimes get one in your shirt, and they were HOT when they ejected, believe
me.
G. Hirshman
Enjoy life while you're alive,
Because you're a long time dead.
Robert Guercio
Today I saw the movie "Saving Private Ryan" and, even though I have never
been in combat, it is exactly how I would imagine war to be; brutal,
horrible and not the least bit romantic.
However, I have never heard of this incident. I presume it is true and if
so, can someone enlighten me to the facts of the incident as depicted in the
movie? For example, did one of the gliders fail to fly because it was
overloaded with a bullet proofed jeep? Were there any inaccuracies or
important incidents left out? etc.
Thank You,
Bob
Alexander Arnakis
>3. Armed Medics: <snip> Also in
>Normandy, they told me that medics would pick up -- or be given -- captured
>German pistols, sometimes more than one. This was so that, if there were
>any"Monday morning quarterback" criticisms raised about violating the Geneva
>Convention, they could insist that they had just wrestled the gun away from an
>attacker and had no option but to shoot the attacker(s) with his/their own gun.
> They would carry a second one, hidden in a pocket, as a true last-ditch piece.
>
Good way to get yourself killed as Germans would shoot out of hand any
prisoners possessing "souvenir" German weapons. My understanding is
that SOP was to quickly ditch any such if there was imminent danger of
capture.
Jeffrey Joyce
criminal offenses (rape or murder) during World War II. Within the
European Theater of Operations (ETO) 65 men were court-martialed and
ordered shot. General Eisenhower reviewed all the cases and of the 65 he
changed 16 sentances to life in the stockade; 49 were shot.
Desertion was also punishable by death by firing squad, but the only
soldier executed for desertion (and the first since 1864) was Pvt Eddie
Slovik. Pvt Slovik refused to move forward with his unit in Aug 44. He
was court-martialed in Nov 44. By the time General Eisenhower gave the
case a final review in late Jan 45 the US Army was recovering from the
Battle of the Bulge's heavy losses (including desertions) and Eisenhower
allowed the death sentence to stand. Pvt Slovik was executed on 31 Jan 45.
The incident is discussed by Stephen Ambrose in his recent book "Citizen
Soldiers".
Jeff J.
Tom &/or Arlene Adkins wrote in message <35CE51...@erols.com>...
>Daniel Rush wrote:
>
>> Some think that Eddie Slovak was the only American executed for cowardice
and that isn't so...
HCALTMANN
>Today I saw the movie "Saving Private Ryan" and, even though I have never
>been in combat, it is exactly how I would imagine war to be; brutal,
>horrible and not the least bit romantic.
I think the gore was a bit overdramatic. I was a combat soldier (on the German
side), but only for a couple of weeks. We had one man killed by a sniper. The
bullet hit him on the left cheek bone, destroying his left jawbone. His jaw
was unhinged and dangling from the right hinge. His left eye had been ejected
from its socket and was hanging from the nerve and blood vessels. But there
was very little blood. He was alive but could nor speak. He had a very good
buddy who put him out of his misery. That's what friends are for. Such is
war.
SPR shows very little of the other and more common side of combat: The
boredom, the tiredness, the hungriness, the hurry-up-and-wait. So, in that
sense, it did not show typical front line action. But the movie was well done
for what it did.
Any comments from American combat vets? -- Heinz
HCAl...@aol.com (Heinz Altmann)
Donald Phillipson
>>One of the LUDICROUS things about the movie is the left-handed sniper! In
>>my experience in the M-1/M-14?M-16 era, EVERYBODY was taught to use their
>>right-handed weapons with the right hand!
> Untrue. In MY experience(2 tours in country) and 6 yrs in the Army, we were
> taught to fire however it was more comfortable or accurate. The main problem
> with firing an M-161a, was that the cartridge ejected to the right and
> bacwards. So that if you didnt fasten the top button on your shirt, you would
> sometimes get one in your shirt, and they were HOT when they ejected, believe
> me.
British practice was different in WW2, mainly because of the
bolt-actioned .303 rifle: it could not be reloaded rapidly if
held "left-handed."
All crew-served weapons had to be learned the same way, in
case you were teamed with a stranger. The Bren LMG ejected
its cartridges straight down -- and up the sleeve of the
right hand on the pistol-gip, if you did not button the
cuff closely. (My scar, a perfect silhouette of the
cartridge and rim lasted for years....)
--
| Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs, |
| Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734 |
HCALTMANN
>Good way to get yourself killed as Germans would shoot out of hand any
>prisoners possessing "souvenir" German weapons. My understanding is
>that SOP was to quickly ditch any such if there was imminent danger of
>capture.
Now, that is b......t. Anyone who has any weapon on his body when taken
prisoner is taking a very BIG chance. SOP is to ditch ALL weapons, souvenir or
not, before Haende Hoch. -- Heinz
HCAl...@aol.com (Heinz Altmann)
Mike Fester
: I think the gore was a bit overdramatic. I was a combat soldier (on the
: German side), but only for a couple of weeks. We had one man killed by a
: sniper. The bullet hit him on the left cheek bone, destroying his left
: jawbone. His jaw was unhinged and dangling from the right hinge. His
: left eye had been ejected from its socket and was hanging from the nerve
: and blood vessels. But there was very little blood. He was alive but
: could nor speak. He had a very good buddy who put him out of his misery.
: That's what friends are for. Such is war.
Quick question: why? The injury doesn't sound life threatening. Too far
forward to seek proper medical help, or what?
(Note: I've heard stories like this from other armies, with soldiers being
"put out of their misery" by comrades from injuries that didn't seem
life-threatening, so I always wondered how these decisions were made.)
: SPR shows very little of the other and more common side of combat: The
: boredom, the tiredness, the hungriness, the hurry-up-and-wait. So, in that
: sense, it did not show typical front line action. But the movie was
: well done for what it did.
: Any comments from American combat vets? -- Heinz
Don't remember his name, but an American combat vet once said that combat
is largely boredom and marching interrupted by moments of sheer terror.
Mike (remove "@eyrie.org" to reply)
Steve Michaels
> Quick question: why? The injury doesn't sound life threatening. Too far
> forward to seek proper medical help, or what?
>
> (Note: I've heard stories like this from other armies, with soldiers being
> "put out of their misery" by comrades from injuries that didn't seem
> life-threatening, so I always wondered how these decisions were made.)
Could be that they were too far forward to receive any medical help or
that they were in so much pain that it more humane to 'put them out of
thier misery'?
Cheers
>
> Mike (remove "@eyrie.org" to reply)
--
Steve Michaels
Company A 1st Battalion
19th US Infantry, Regulars By God!
http://members.xoom.com/BillyYank
Generals can do anything, there's nothing so much like a god on earth as
a General on a battlefield. Jeff Daniels "Gettysburg" 1993
HCALTMANN
>
>: I think the gore was a bit overdramatic. I was a combat soldier (on the
>: German side), but only for a couple of weeks. We had one man killed by a
>: sniper. The bullet hit him on the left cheek bone, destroying his left
>: jawbone. His jaw was unhinged and dangling from the right hinge. His
>: left eye had been ejected from its socket and was hanging from the nerve
>: and blood vessels. But there was very little blood. He was alive but
>: could nor speak. He had a very good buddy who put him out of his misery.
and then mfe...@iisc.com@eyrie.org (Mike Fester) justifiably asks:
>>Quick question: why? The injury doesn't sound life threatening. Too far
>>forward to seek proper medical help, or what?
He wanted to die. There was no hope for him. His lower jaw was shot, and he
would never have been able to eat. Had he been taken back to the aid station,
triage would have put him on the pile of those beyond help. It was better for
all concerned to let him die right then and there. War is brutal, and life is
cheap. -- Heinz
HCAl...@aol.com (Heinz Altmann)
Steve Michaels
> Quick question: why? The injury doesn't sound life threatening. Too far
> forward to seek proper medical help, or what?
>
Jack Cook
"ALL GAVE SOME. SOME GAVE ALL."
Jack Cook
john...@istar.ca
gbri...@CUTTHISgmu.edu (Gerard) wrote:
> another poster quoted a source saying some Mustang fighter group is
> credited with several tank kills on coincidence?) on June 11, 1944, same
> day Capt. Miller was killed. Not implausible.
I'm sorry but you're just trying too hard.
The entire bridge sequence is over the top, in terms of military history at
any rate. It is clearly not based on any real events. Most particularly,
there were no 2nd SS Pz Div Tigers anywhere about US troops on
11 June. Indeed, there were no 2nd SS Pz Div Tigers ever anywhere
(there were no Tigers in the divisional orbat).
The entire bridge sequence is fictionalized, and I am sure Spielberg's
sole reason for the climax with the P-51s is because it so perfectly
represents the "American paradigm" of technology coming to the
rescue.
Do not scour the archives for P-51 tank kills on 11 June 1944.
I rather doubt that Spielberg even knows what P-51s were, other
than that he told his staff something along the lines of "have some
aircraft come in and blow the tank."
Dramatically it works well. Do not strain to find explanations in
military history.
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COMMANDE
>
> Daniel Rush wrote:
> That's what I was always told - if it isn't true, where did this
> info come from?
> What is your source for the 137? If they were executed, then there
> were probably quite a few more who were sentenced to long prison
> terms, any comment?
In my copy it says:
2,864 tried for desertation in face of the enemy.
49 were sentanced to death
1 was executed Private Edie D. Slovik first one
scince 1864 where there any after him?
So who else? this is pretty clear cut to me.
Jon Cohen
Hitler had 50,000 executed for desertion or cowardice.
US executed 1 for desertion and 49 for rape/murder. 16 others Eisenhower
changed the sentence to life in the stockade.
--
Jon
To reply, use my link below.
Jon...@Bigfoot.com
ICQ # 948660
"The cheek of every American must tingle with shame as he reads the silly,
flat, dishwatery utterances of the man who has to be pointed out to
intelligent foreigners as the President of the United States." The Chicago
Times, November 1863 In Re President Lincoln and the Gettysburg Address.
"In the emergency of war our nation's powers are unbelievable. I have heard
soldiers say a thousand times,'if only we could have created all this energy
for something good.' But we rise above our normal powers only in times of
destruction" Ernie Pyle, reporter, fall of 1944 before leaving the ETO for
the PTO.
"Just because someone can buy a computer and plug it into the wall doesn't
mean that they themselves are wired up right." - JMS
COMMANDE wrote in message <6roapu$96f$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>...
JWP
john...@istar.ca wrote in article <6rt207$96b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <6qn6n1$l1q$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
> gbri...@CUTTHISgmu.edu (Gerard) wrote:
> > another poster quoted a source saying some Mustang fighter group is
> > credited with several tank kills on coincidence?) on June 11, 1944,
same
> > day Capt. Miller was killed. Not implausible.
>
If it matters, it was June 13, not the 11th.
Todd Kunioka
> I rather doubt that Spielberg even knows what P-51s were, other
> than that he told his staff something along the lines of "have some
> aircraft come in and blow the tank."
Didn't Spielberg also make the movie, "The Empire of the Sun"? If
so, I think Spielberg has a real affinity for the P-51. There's a
young kid in that movie, jumping up and down, screaming about "P-51:
The Cadillac of the Sky." At least that's the scene that immediately
sprang to my mind when the Mustangs came zipping over Tom Hank's head....
Todd
Jon Cohen
Well-I for one can not claim to be able to get into Mr. Spielberg's mind but
I would quess that he does know what they are-most likely the P-51's used
were the planes that the production staff could get hold of.
I think that there are more of them flying today than say P-38's and P-47's
that were also in ETO.
If you wish to pick-I do not remember seeing bomb or rocket racks on the
planes.
Mike Woods
:
: I rather doubt that Spielberg even knows what P-51s were...
Sure he does. They're the WW2 aircraft that can be hired! How many
flying Thunderbolts or Typhoons are there? There's still a stock of
P-51's that participate in air shows and air races.
You can dummy up a tank with sheet metal to make it look like something
else, but it's a lot harder to do that with an airplane.
-- Mike Woods