Were any Russians at Normandy?
Percival VcFiaka
>I read this and was just curious.Were any Russians at Normandy?
I beleive there is an eyewitness account I read of British soldiers
and
Frenchmen in Normandy speaking of strange looking "Mongols" in the
ranks of
the Germans - I believe Carol Mather also has mentioned this point. He
speaks of Russian speaking horse-mounted troops in Normandy and calls
them
as Cossacks. Whether the troops he saw were really Cossacks by
definition is
debatable, but the curious thing is that both Mather and the Frenchmen
give
accounts of people with Mongoloid features - not the Caucasian
Russians -
which means these troops could have come from Central Asian SSR
Republics -
Kazakstan,Uzbekistan(??).. or Siberia.. maybe..
Could they have been Japanese soldiers, by any chance in Normandy?..
Percival
_______________________________________________________
http://inbox.excite.com
John D Salt
news:3c176d89...@news.pacific.net.au:
>>From: Group Captain Lionel Mandrake (blue...@aol.comfaber)
>
>>I read this and was just curious.Were any Russians at
>>Normandy?
>
> I beleive there is an eyewitness account I read of British
> soldiers and
> Frenchmen in Normandy speaking of strange looking "Mongols"
> in the ranks of
> the Germans
[Snips]
There were certainly soldiers recruited from Soviet prisoners in
the "Ost" battalions of many German formations in Normandy, some
using Soviet equipment such as PM1910 Machine Guns.
An intsum from early in the Normandy campaign I'm too lazy to
look out right now (but probably from 30 Corps or something like
that) mentions prisoners as belonging to the "Turkic Legion".
I assume that there must have been at least a few Russian
observers or liaison officers with the Allies in Normandy, as
there are a small number of Soviet graves in the Commonwealth War
Cemetery at Bayeux.
All the best,
John.
Dave Gower
> I beleive there is an eyewitness account I read of British soldiers
> and Frenchmen in Normandy speaking of strange looking "Mongols" in the
> ranks of the Germans
There were some Russian POWs who had volunteered to serve with the
Germans.
Since their incentive was food and medical care, rather than loyalty
to the
German cause, they surrendered as soon as they could, and fought as
little
as possible.
Percival VcFiaka
> There were some Russian POWs who had volunteered to serve with the
> Germans.Since their incentive was food and medical care, rather than loyalty
> to the German cause, they surrendered as soon as they could, and fought as
> little as possible.
Yes there were some Russian POW's too among the ranks of the Germans
in Normandy. However I beg to disagree with you on the latter point -
many Russians had fought against the Bolsheviks during the revolution
of 1917 and they considerded Stalin as their main enemy rather than
the Nazis. They considered that siding with Stalin and his communist
friends in any way was high treason to the Russian cause and they did
not find anything objectionable in fighting them whatever the cause of
the other was - General Vlasov and his KONR troops(Committee for the
liberation of Russia) might be an example. They wholeheartedly fought
on the side of the Axis without any trouble and in the Armenian
Division of the Axis they fought till their deaths.
The troops who surrendered faced a sorry plight later on in the war.
They were kept as Russian POW's by the Allies and were transported to
British barracks to be held. There Stalin requested the Red Cross not
to provide any help to the Russian collaborators and the British
Government of the time acceeded to this requesting for they could not
risk antagonising Stalin at the time. Many captured Russian POW's
committed suicide rather than face the rest of their lives in Siberia.
Even then thousands of such people were taken to Murmansk after the
war by the Royal Navy, Nikolai Tolstoy quotes several British sailors
saying that they heard gunfire in the warehouses on the docks once
their terrible cargo had embarked and several trucks evacuating what
may have been bodies.
So I do not think that a majority of the soldiers were fighting just
to get better facilities - for collaborating with the Nazis would have
brought them far more horror than what the Nazis could have heaped on
them.
Regards,
Percival
--
Emmanuel Gustin
news:3c176d89...@news.pacific.net.au...
> I beleive there is an eyewitness account I read of British soldiers
> and Frenchmen in Normandy speaking of strange looking "Mongols"
> in the ranks of the Germans
The Germans were desperate for manpower, so they actively
recruited Soviets that opposed the Stalinist regime or just thought
they would be better off iu the German army than in a German
POW camp. These "Osttruppen" included so-called "Volksdeutschen,"
people of German stock that were offered the German nationality
in return for military service, but also soldiers from all parts
of the USSR. Or even from outside the USSR: Cornelius Ryan
reported that in Normandy two Tibetans were captured, who
had first been pressed in the Soviet army and then in the German
army.
In early 1944 no less than 1/6 of the German infantry were
"Osttruppen." But when the Germans suffered a number of defeats
on the Eastern front the reliability of these foreign troops dropped.
So the Germans reasoned, as others had before them, that
mercenaries are more reliable when they are far from home and
cannot easily desert. They were moved from the Eastern to the
Western front. Were many of them proved equally unwilling to
fight and die for Germany.
After the war all were handed over to the USSR, where they faced
a certain death.
--
Emmanuel Gustin <gus...@NoSpam.uia.ac.be>
(Delete NoSpam. from my address. If you can't reach me, your host
may be on our spam filter list. Check
http://www.uia.ac.be/cc/spam.html.)
P. Pascual
>
> >I read this and was just curious.Were any Russians at Normandy?
>
clerks,
etc. in many Infantry divisions (SS Leibstandarte, Das Reich and
Hitlerjugend divisions also had a number of "Hiwis")
Peregrin. Madrid. Spain
ppas...@masbytes.com
Matthew and Sally Buynoski
ww2...@acpub.duke.edu wrote:
>
> Could they have been Japanese soldiers, by any chance in Normandy?..
>
> Percival
A few Koreans were captured. They had apparently been impressed into
the
Japanese army, captured by the Russians in the Japanese-Russian
fighting
before Russia was attacked by Germany, tooku up arms for Russia, and
finally ended up captured by the Germans and put in an "Ost"
battalion.
This is related
in Ambrose's book.
HMS Ramilles
>the curious thing is that both Mather and the Frenchmen
>give accounts of people with Mongoloid features - not the
>Caucasian Russians - which means these troops could have
>come from Central Asian SSR Republics - Kazakstan,Uzbekistan(??)
>.. or Siberia.. maybe..Could they have been Japanese soldiers,
>by any chance in Normandy?..
The Germans never made it any farther from the
Caspian Sea as far as occupying territory in
Russia was concerned, but there was indeed a lot
of animosity towards the communist dictatorship
in Moscow aong the outlying Soviet Republics -
remember the Ukranians hailing incoming Germans
as liberators and saviours... and this could
have prompted maybe some adventorous Central
Asians to join up with the Germans..
Another point to be made could be that Kazakstan
had close to million Germans living there since
Catherine the Great's time in the 1700's
(National Geographic - March 1993) and some of
them could have stuck to old allegiances by
turning some of the local youth against Moscow..
[ But this could have been very shortlived as
Stalin had all these Germans transported to
Siberia very quickly ].
Coming to the point of any Japanese in Normandy -
they could have either been POW's captured by
the Russians in '38 and subsequently captured by
the Germans and pressed into combat by them.. or
there could have been Japanese military officers
on a sort of exchange program for military ideas
at the time ??.. ( who knows..) and they could
have been studying coastal defenses around
Normandy when viola the Allies landed on the
beaches and they were caught in the wrong place
in the wrong country..
HMSRamilles
Diego Suarez
Madagascar
Percival VcFiaka
>A few Koreans were captured.
ineligible to bear arms in the defense of the nation (N.F Bougei -
Vyselenii sovetskiqh koreitsev's dal'nievo voustoka). So how come
these Koreans especially those who had been cpatured from an enemy any
thus untrustworthy aliens come to fight in the Red Army when the large
Soviet Korean comunity itself was not allowed to fight for the USSR?.
[ Even Soviet born Koreans were not allowed to fight... ].
Percival
______________________________________________________________________________
Send a friend your Buddy Card and stay in contact always with Excite
Messenger
http://messenger.excite.com
HMS Ramilles
> There were some Russian POWs who had volunteered
> to serve with the Germans.Since their incentive
> was food and medical care, rather than loyalty
> to the German cause, they surrendered as soon as
> they could, and fought as little as possible.
I would not agree with you on this, there were many Russians and other
peoples present who had in 1917 fought bitterly against the Bolsheviks
and hated Stalin more than they did an unknown Hitler or anybody else.
Morover many of these peolpe were on Stalin's most wanted list or
"traitors" to the comminist ideology and faced long stints in a Gulag
even if they showed up in Moscow wanting to fight for theior land.
Thats why many Cossack, Chechen and other southern Soviet leaders who
had been in hiding sice 1918 and were presumed dead suddenly showed up
when Hitler's armies showed up. They had more reason to consider
Stalin as an invader who had uprooted their lives rather as they could
face only death and destruction under the communists, thus I think
that they fought fiercely for Hitler whom they might have seen as a
fellow liberator ( after all Hitler too was an avid anti-communist
albeit of a rather extreme type).. but if you were a Russian peasant
being pursued by the KGB and Stalin you would have found that the
Germans were the godsend to liberate you.
HMS Ramilles
Diego Suarez
Madagascar
--
John Kramer
"volunteers" of the Wehrmacht were made POW in the Juno beach area.
JK
"HMS Ramilles" <HMSRa...@mcshen.zzn.com> schreef in bericht
news:3c0f57c...@news.pacific.net.au...
--
HMS Ramilles
> An intsum from early in the Normandy campaign I'm too lazy to
> look out right now (but probably from 30 Corps or something like
> that) mentions prisoners as belonging to the "Turkic Legion".
Yes these "Ostlegioenen" or Far Eastern Legions were Alfred
Rosenberg's ideas, I believe. He had Hitler to sign an order late in
the winter of 1941, when things were not going all that well for them
in the Eastern front, authorising the recruitment of non-Russian
volunteers for a unit composed of non-Russian foreigners only. Thus
the "Turkestani Legion" was formed out of people not only from
Turkestan but also from various other nationalities like the Uzbeks,
Tajiks, Kirghiz and the Karakalpacks( whoever they were.. ), the
"Caucasian Islamic Legion" was formed for the Ingushets, the
Azerbaijanis which BTW was the largest of all with a fighting
capability compared to be as good as any German division, the
Chechens, the Lezgins and Dagestanis, the "Georgian Legion" for the
Georgian Christians and the "Armenian Division" for the Armenians.
Thus by creating the legions on ethnic and religious lines Hitler
hoped to channel their traditional warrior mentality and combativenes
into his war effort.
Now the Ukranian division when it was formed was given an assurance
that it would be used only against the Soviets in combats - however
whether this offer was made to the other Ostlegionen is not very
clear. But some of these Eastern troops were however sent to France
and the Ruhr to help in satisfying the manpower shortages there - some
of the men had to be shipped by the Germans forcefully - and thus some
of the "coalmine legions" got to be in France and the Saar from where
some escaped although under strict supervision of guards and were
stuck in the rural areas of France unable to go home over 2000 miles
of German held territory, thus they might have been caught when the
Allies landed in Normandy.
HMS Ramilles
Diego Suarez
Madagascar.
--
Percival VcFiaka
>A few Koreans were captured.
But I believe that the Koreans were considered as people unfit or
ineligible to bear arms in the defense of the nation (N.F Bougei -
Vyselenii sovetskiqh koreitsev's dal'nievo voustoka). So how come
these Koreans especially those who had been cpatured from an enemy any
thus untrustworthy aliens come to fight in the Red Army when the large
Soviet Korean comunity itself was not allowed to fight for the USSR?.
[ Even Soviet born Koreans were not allowed to fight... ].
Percival
--
Lech K. Lesiak
> According to the book "The Longest Day", several Polish and Russian
> "volunteers" of the Wehrmacht were made POW in the Juno beach area.
There was at least one unit composed entirely of Soviets in the area.
One
German Jew who was interned by the Brits, and then joined the British
army, was sent over shortly after D-Day as an intpreter. He
negotiated
the surrender of a unit composed entirely of Soviets in German
uniform.
The negotiation was done in French since the colonel commanding the
unit
had no German.
Cheers,
Lech
Pelzig
ww2...@acpub.duke.edu wrote:
> >buyn...@batnet.com (Matthew and Sally Buynoski) wrote in message
>
> >A few Koreans were captured.
>
> But I believe that the Koreans were considered as people unfit or
> ineligible to bear arms in the defense of the nation (N.F Bougei -
> Vyselenii sovetskiqh koreitsev's dal'nievo voustoka). So how come
> these Koreans especially those who had been cpatured from an enemy any
> thus untrustworthy aliens come to fight in the Red Army when the large
> Soviet Korean comunity itself was not allowed to fight for the USSR?.
> [ Even Soviet born Koreans were not allowed to fight... ].
Greetings, all:
I believe that what some Allies considered to be Japanese or Koreans
captured during the Normandy landings were not Japanese or Korean but
were
instead Russian. The Germans made use of Russian tribes ( for lack of
a
better word ) in formations called ostlegionen. The Germans lumped all
of
the Asiatic tribes under the general header of "Turkomans". A large
number
of these ostlegionen units were formed, most, if not all attached to
Heer
units. Another Asiatic unit was formed from the Kalmuck tribe, one
name
being given to them as the Kalmuck Legion. They were much more
autonomous
than other ostlegionen and battled partisans, mostly alongside German
security forces.
The ROA ( Russian Liberation Army ) did battle in the west ( as
opposed
the majority of these units which fought in the east ), many of their
number sharing asian traits. ROA units fighting against the Allies
after
the invasion crumbled easily in so much that they wanted to combat the
Soviets, not the west, and their will to fight was not there.
I have heard the Korean story, in so much that they were apparently
prisoners or captives who escaped into German hands and elected to
join
the military. But with the one or two Japanese and similar numbers of
Korean nationals, the majority of asian members in the German military
were from Russian tribes.
Regards,
Ed
John Kramer
"volunteers" of the Wehrmacht were made POW in the Juno beach area.
"HMS Ramilles" <HMSRa...@mcshen.zzn.com> schreef in bericht
news:3c0f57c...@news.pacific.net.au...
--
Martin Rapier
{snip}
> There was at least one unit composed entirely of Soviets in the area.
There were actually several entire battalions of 'Ost' troops in the
Normandy area.
Niklas Zetterlings extensive German OB
http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/
lists many of them.
The 709th & 711th Divisions had entire Ost regiments (of three
battalions)
and the 706th had both a separate Ost battalion and two more Ost
battalions
integrated with its German infantry component.
Cheers
Martin
www.siemers.com
the
appropriate Battalions listed. Also some Battalions weren't assigned
to a
specific Division.
LXXXIV Corps
716th Grenadier Division: 439th and 642nd Ost Battalion
319th Grenadier Division: 643rd Ost Battalion and 823rd Georgian
Battalion
709th Grenadier Division: 795th and 797th Georgian Battalion
281st Ost Cavalary Battalion
LXXIV Corps
266th Grenadier Division: 629th and 630th Ost Battalion
346th Grenadier Division: 602nd and 627th Ost Battalion
285th and 649th Ost Battalion
XXV Corps
243rd Grenadier Division: 636th Ost Battalion and 798th Georgian
Battalion
343rd Grenadier Divsiion: 633rd and 635th Ost Battalion
265th Grenadier Division: 634th Ost Battalion and 800th North Caucasus
Battalion
229th Ost Battalion
Many of these had been moved to the West as there morale was low and
many
felt they were unreliable, although some units were reported to having
fought well.
Thanks,
Cary
http://www.siemers.com World War II Vehicles
Percival VcFiaka
>there could have been Japanese military officers
>on a sort of exchange program for military ideas
>at the time ??.. ( who knows..) and they could
>have been studying coastal defenses around Normandy
If you have read Davis Stafford's "Churchill and the Secret Service",
yo will come across a mention of the intercept of a Japanese
transmission from Berlin to Tokyo describing the visit of a Mr. Oshima
from the Japanese mission in Berlin to inspect the coastal defenses
around Normandy sometime in late 1943. So I believe there were such
sharing of military knowledge and tactics between the Germans and the
Japanese especially regarding coastal defenses since I think the
Japanese were also bracing themselves for a possible coastal landing
by US forces by the time in the war. However the presence of any
troops engaged in combat is unknown or not clear. The only few Asiatic
peoples who were indeed captured point to Korean or Soviet origin.
Maybe.. just maybe..
Percival
HMS Ramilles
> If you have read Davis Stafford's "Churchill and the Secret Service",
> yo will come across a mention of the intercept of a Japanese
> transmission from Berlin to Tokyo describing the visit of a Mr. Oshima
> from the Japanese mission in Berlin to inspect the coastal defenses
> around Normandy sometime in late 1943. So I believe there were such
> sharing of military knowledge and tactics between the Germans and the
> Japanese especially regarding coastal defenses since I think the
> Japanese were also bracing themselves for a possible coastal landing
> by US forces by the time in the war. However the presence of any
> troops engaged in combat is unknown or not clear. The only few Asiatic
> peoples who were indeed captured point to Korean or Soviet origin.
> Maybe.. just maybe..
Yes Hiroshi Oshima ( I believe ) was indeed in France in Nov. 1943.
But the purpose of his mission was surmised to have been one of
coastal defense inspection by the British who read his 'tour diary' of
his France jaunt through the MAGIC code breaking provided to the by
the Americans. But Oshima was spotted moving around with an entourage
which consisted of many Japanese people. Who they were and what they
were doing is pretty murky. But I think they were translators or
facilitators for any Japanese officers who may have stayed in French
ports to receive any Japanese vessels which might have arrived there
with precious cargo for the Germans. [ The I-52 sub could be held as
an example for this sort of 'trade' ].
Another interesting fact which I am not sure whether exactly true or
not - but found in a previous posting on this NG was that Gen. Sato
from "Bridge on the River Kwai", the very man was in France during
that period. I do not know what he was doing there - whether on
military or civilian purpose - but anyway an interesting bite about
Japanese in France.
HMS Ramilles.
Diego Suarez.
Madagascar.
--
Dudley Lamarr Hound
> Another point to be made could be that Kazakstan
> had close to million Germans living there since
> Catherine the Great's time in the 1700's
> (National Geographic - March 1993) and some of
> them could have stuck to old allegiances by
> turning some of the local youth against Moscow..
> [ But this could have been very shortlived as
> Stalin had all these Germans transported to
> Siberia very quickly ].
Now how likely is such a thing ever happening.. As you yourself have
said these "Germans" had lived in Kazakstan for 250 years and had
integrated well with the population. So I would be surprised if any of
them still stuck with German after 250 years of Russian life. It would
be even surpising if any of the born-in-Russia guys would have
long-enough memories to remember that they were from Germany some
dozen generations earlier. After all their ancestors had come to live
in Russia on their own will and had chose to live in Kazakstan.
Moreover it was Stalin and the communists who were sitting in Moscow
at the time and I am sure that neither he nor Dzerzhinsky would have
allowed any such acts of treason to go on unchecked on Soviet soil for
long. Maybe some of these immigrants disliked the communists like
millions of other Russians but I do not think that it would have been
posible for these groups to have acted for long agaisnt the Soviet
state in any effective way.
Dudley Hound
--