British Tanks in Egypt 1940
Davide Pastore
(models, numbers, etc.) of the British armoured units
present in Egypt at the time of Operation Compass
(winter 1940-41). AFAIK the units were:
3rd (King's Own) Hussars
7th (Queen's Own) Hussars
8th (King's Royal Irish) Hussars
11th (Prince Albert's Own) Hussars
1st RTR
2nd RTR
6th RTR
7th RTR
--
Davide
"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."
(Massima Zen)
Geoffrey Sinclair
news:eldu91$gvs$1...@tdi.cu.mi.it...
> Hello. I would like to know strength and organization
> (models, numbers, etc.) of the British armoured units
> present in Egypt at the time of Operation Compass
> (winter 1940-41). AFAIK the units were:
>
> 3rd (King's Own) Hussars
> 7th (Queen's Own) Hussars
> 8th (King's Royal Irish) Hussars
> 11th (Prince Albert's Own) Hussars
> 1st RTR
> 2nd RTR
> 6th RTR
> 7th RTR
You are asking for a moving target given the fighting lasted 2
months during which British tank strength was steadily
eroded and the daily strength fluctuated as vehicles were repaired.
You would need the daily strength returns from the war office files.
As of the start of the battle, using the information from The
Crucible of War by Barry Pitt,
7th RTR was Corps troops, with 48 Matildas.
7th Armoured Division,
4th Armoured Brigade had 7th Hussars, 2nd and 6th RTR
7th Armoured Brigade had 3rd and 8th Hussars and 1st RTR
All up the Armoured division had around 200 (195?) light tanks
plus 75 medium tanks, A9, A10, A13.
11th Hussars were divisional troops, using armoured cars and
at the start of the battle had 10 RAF armoured cars attached.
By the end of the campaign most of these vehicles were destroyed,
in need of major overhaul or only fit for scrapping.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Stephen Graham
> You are asking for a moving target given the fighting lasted 2
> months during which British tank strength was steadily
> eroded and the daily strength fluctuated as vehicles were repaired.
> You would need the daily strength returns from the war office files.
>
> As of the start of the battle, using the information from The
> Crucible of War by Barry Pitt,
Another possible source is Hughes, Broshot & Philson, _The British
Armies in World War Two: An Organisational History, Vol. 1: British
Armoured and Cavalry Divisions_ and _Supplement 1: Orders of Battle
1939-1941_.
> 7th RTR was Corps troops, with 48 Matildas.
50 per my source
> 7th Armoured Division,
>
> 4th Armoured Brigade had 7th Hussars, 2nd and 6th RTR
B Squadron of 3rd Hussars is cross-attached to 2nd RTR
> 7th Armoured Brigade had 3rd and 8th Hussars and 1st RTR
And B Squadron of 2nd RT is cross-attached to 3rd Hussars.
> All up the Armoured division had around 200 (195?) light tanks
> plus 75 medium tanks, A9, A10, A13.
Hughes et al. reports that 2nd RTR has all the A13s, some 52 by their
count, 3rd Hussars is operating all Mark VI lights, and the remaining
regiments operating a mix of A9 and A10 cruisers and Mark VI light
tanks, with the latter predominating.
> 11th Hussars were divisional troops, using armoured cars and
> at the start of the battle had 10 RAF armoured cars attached.
For a total of between 70 and 75 armoured cars
> By the end of the campaign most of these vehicles were destroyed,
> in need of major overhaul or only fit for scrapping.
As an example, by the end of the campaign, 2nd RTR will have less than a
dozen running A13s and 6th RTR will have to be completely re-equipped
with Italian M13 tanks.
Davide Pastore
> Hughes et al. reports that 2nd RTR has all the A13s
A13 Mk I (Cruiser Mk III) or A13 Mk II (Cruiser Mk IV) ?
Another question. I have found this total for all Brith forces
in Egypt at the start of Compass:
74 armoured cars
195 light tanks
114 "medium tanks" [probably A9 and A13]
64 "heavy tanks" [probably A10, "heavy cruiser tank"]
48 infantry tank [Matilda]
However, such a total [421 tanks] is much too high for the listed
battalions [7] and apparently includes at least another one and
maybe two (maybe kept in reserve, or training ?).
Stephen Graham
> "Stephen Graham" <gra...@speakeasy.net> ha scritto
>
>
>>Hughes et al. reports that 2nd RTR has all the A13s
>
>
> A13 Mk I (Cruiser Mk III) or A13 Mk II (Cruiser Mk IV) ?
Sorry, no idea. If forced to guess, I'd say Mark I.
> Another question. I have found this total for all Brith forces
> in Egypt at the start of Compass:
>
> 74 armoured cars
> 195 light tanks
> 114 "medium tanks" [probably A9 and A13]
> 64 "heavy tanks" [probably A10, "heavy cruiser tank"]
> 48 infantry tank [Matilda]
>
> However, such a total [421 tanks] is much too high for the listed
> battalions [7] and apparently includes at least another one and
> maybe two (maybe kept in reserve, or training ?).
There are 2nd New Zealand Division Cavalry and 6th Australian Division
Cavalry, which apparently have some light tanks.
I presume that the remainder are tanks in workshops or other rear
echelon units.
ErrolC
<snip>
>
> There are 2nd New Zealand Division Cavalry and 6th Australian Division
> Cavalry, which apparently have some light tanks.
2NZ Div Cav only had been issued with Bren Gun Carriers and around 17
tanks for training
(http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2DiCa-c2.html describes 7 Mk
IIIs, 10 not specified) since Feb 1940. The tanks were replaced with
armoured cars just before embarking for Greece (at which time 8 were
still mobile).
--
Errol Cavit | "I long for the day when we can match the Germans in the
sky, 'plane for 'plane. When that day dawns, Germany is beaten. We
know by experience that we can whack his land forces, tanks included,
any day of the week." Private L. A. Diamond, 23 NZ Batt, 1941
Rich
A brief overview of the situation may be found in some of the reportss
by Lt.-Col. G.W. Richards, GS, in WO 169/27.
He reported that as of 6 December 1940 the Armoured Car states were:
11 Hussars 48 (30 were Rolls Royce)
HQ, 4 Armd. Bde. 5
7 Armd. Div. Sigs 2
RAC Base Depot 3
In workshops 39
Sudan Defence Force 37
Tank States were:
HQ, 7 Armd. Div. 4 lt, 1 cr
HQ, 4 Armd. Bde. 3 lt
HQ, 7 Armd. Bde. 5 lt, 2 cr
1 RTR 22 lt, 16 cr
2 RTR 16 lt, 36 cr
3 Hussars 36 lt, 16 cr
6 RTR (- B Sqn) 9 lt, 9 cr
7 Hussars 34 lt, 4 cr
8 Hussars 36 lt, 4 cr
B Sqn, 6 RTR 8 lt, 6 cr
RAC Base Depot 13 lt, 2 cr
Workshops 82 lt, 41 cr
Hope that helps.
Davide Pastore
"Rich" <Rich...@msn.com> ha scritto
> A brief overview of the situation may be found in some of
> the reportss by Lt.-Col. G.W. Richards, GS, in WO 169/27.
Excluding the September-October reinforcements (2nd RTR,
3rd Hussars) the total is 85 Cruisers plus 216 Lights, 44+134
efficient ones plus 41+82 in workshops, i.e. efficiency rate
of 52% and 62% respectively: were the original Cruisers in
such a worn-out state?
Rich
> Thank you very much to everyone!
>
> 3rd Hussars) the total is 85 Cruisers plus 216 Lights, 44+134
>
> efficient ones plus 41+82 in workshops, i.e. efficiency rate
>
> of 52% and 62% respectively: were the original Cruisers in
>
> such a worn-out state?
>
Hi Davide,
They were not all "worn out" although many had been pretty heavily used
"opposing" the initial Italian advance during the summer. And the early
cruisers (as well as many of the later ones) were notoriously
unreliable. For instance I have the following from an old post of mine,
I'll see if I can find more on the serviciability rates in late 1940
and early 1941.
>From (WO 169/952) 7 August 1941, message from Brigadier AFVs, Western
Desert to GSIa, Middle East, regarding the average daily percentage of
vehicles unserviceable during June and July 1941:
"I" Tanks 19%
Cruiser Tanks 28%
Light Tanks 26%
Armoured Cars 3.4%
Carriers 10%
Morris FWOs 8.1%
"B" Vehicles 9.5%
7 September 1941, message Brigadier AFVs, Western Desert to DCGS,
regarding of serviceable and unserviceable cruiser types in Middle East
(runners include those with schools and etc.) under repair/serviceable
= percentage of total available unserviceable:
Mk I (A9) 10/38 = 20.8%
Mk II (A10) 9/33 = 21.4%
Mk IV (A13) 18/67 = 21.2%
MK VI (A15) 14/53 = 20.9%
25 September 1941, message Major General AFVs, Middle East to ?, at the
end of June 1941 the following were under repair/serviceable in the
Middle East:
Cruisers 27/113 = 19.3%
"I" Tanks 39/63 = 38.2%
as of 25 September the situation was:
Cruisers 69/387 = 15.1%
"I" Tanks 35/216 = 13.9%
>From (WO 169/3861) message G(AFV) Middle East to ?, end of September
1942, regarding the Tank Overhaul Program:
Overhaul Mileage Limit:
Crusader - 1,200
Valentine - 2,500
Matilda - 1,000
Stuart - 3,500
Grant - 1,500
Annual Mileage Rate:
All - 3,000
Time in Workshop for Overhaul
All (except Stuart) - 8 weeks
Stuart - 4 weeks
Objective of the program was to maintain tank formations in the field
above strength with a vehicle mileage limit of 250 miles per month.