Question Re: Internment in USA--WWII
Juday
involves two towns in New York State during W.W.II.
In Newark NY, I was a child in elementary school during the war. I think I
remember watching German Prisoners-of-War playing soccer in a fenced-in
courtyard. My younger brother, now 62, doesn't think this could be
possible--that German POW's would not have been sent to USA. I think I am
right, but have not been able to find information on this history.
In Oswego, N.Y. where we lived later, we went to school with European
Refugees. Have just learned, briefly, that Refugees were in some kind of a
detention center at Fort Oswego. As children, we were never aware of this.
Does anyone have any information re: this particular history.
Thanks for any helpful info.
Judith Hammonds
juday_ju...@msn.com
Jon Cohen
states.
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: Have two questions I'm curious about. Wondering if anyone can help? It
: involves two towns in New York State during W.W.II.
: In Newark NY, I was a child in elementary school during the war. I think I
: remember watching German Prisoners-of-War playing soccer in a fenced-in
: courtyard. My younger brother, now 62, doesn't think this could be
: possible--that German POW's would not have been sent to USA. I think I am
: right, but have not been able to find information on this history.
In the Spring of 1943, the U.S. received more than 150,000 German
prisoners of war.
In New York there were these POW camps:
U.S. Disciplinary Barracks, Green Haven, NY--
Fort Hamilton Beach, Brooklyn, NY
Is Fort Jay in NY?
Also in NY there were three known internment sites for Civiliansi.e.,
permanent resident aliens of German ancestry:
Niagara Falls
Camp Upton
Ellis Island, New York Harbor
A.D. Jacobs, Researcher
WWII U.S. Internment Program
http://www.netzone.com/~adjacobs
efr...@mocha.memphis.edu
> Have two questions I'm curious about. Wondering if anyone can help?
Next to reviling one another, that's what we like
to do best.
> In Newark NY, I was a child in elementary school during the war. I think I
> remember watching German Prisoners-of-War playing soccer in a fenced-in
> courtyard. My younger brother, now 62, doesn't think this could be
> possible--that German POW's would not have been sent to USA. I think I am
> right, but have not been able to find information on this history.
Little brothers are always wrong! Beginning with the
Axis surrender in Tunisia in May 1943, some 300-500,000
German POWs were shipped to the US. (The Brits couldn't
handle all of them, and the US liked the idea of having
the troopships that carried US servicemen overseas
returning full rather than empty.) By early 1945,
I think, German POWs were usually kept in Europe.
Even before 1943, though, there were a few thousand
German POWs in the US-- sub crews and merchant seamen,
predominantly.
There are some good books on this, but I can only
remember one author's name-- Arnold Krammer (sp?).
[snipped query #2, about which I know nothing]
Ed Frank
Wjhopwood
>In Newark NY, I was a child in elementary school during the war. I think I
>remember watching German Prisoners-of-War playing soccer in a fenced-in
>courtyard. My younger brother, now 62, doesn't think this could be
>possible--that German POW's would not have been sent to USA. I think I am
>right, but have not been able to find information on this history.
Your younger brother is wrong. There were German POWs in a number of locations
throughout the U.S. There was a fairly large POW camp located north of Miami
Beach and another south of Miami which held German prisoners of war until 1946
when they were repatriated. As an aside, they were quite useful in cleaning up
after the disastrous 1945 hurricane in South Florida and I understand a few of
them liked it so much in the area that they came back to establish homes and
families after the war
W.J.Hopwood.
Don Kirkman
<05566002704...@msn.com>:
>Have two questions I'm curious about. Wondering if anyone can help? It
>involves two towns in New York State during W.W.II.
>In Newark NY, I was a child in elementary school during the war. I think I
>remember watching German Prisoners-of-War playing soccer in a fenced-in
>courtyard. My younger brother, now 62, doesn't think this could be
>possible--that German POW's would not have been sent to USA. I think I am
>right, but have not been able to find information on this history.
>In Oswego, N.Y. where we lived later, we went to school with European
>Refugees. Have just learned, briefly, that Refugees were in some kind of a
>detention center at Fort Oswego. As children, we were never aware of this.
>Does anyone have any information re: this particular history.
>From this distance (space and time both) it's impossible to tell you for
sure what the centers were without more information--probably a search
into local history would be the quickest and most accurate.
There are three distinct possibilities. First, 'enemy aliens' (German,
Italian, and Japanese citizens) were detained in internment centers
throughout much of the US. Most of the principals were either
diplomatic staff or aliens suspected of espionage or other activity
against the US; in many cases they had American born family members who
joined them.
Second, there were POW camps also throughout the US. I used to know a
Japanese man who had been a civilian worker for the Japanese army who
was a POW in Texas, and loved the US because of the treatment he
received compared to the way his own army would treated him.
And, last, thousands of European refugees came to the US before and
during WW II; there were many Jews from throughout Europe, and there
were also many others especially from the nations overrun by the
Germans. An area near me on the West Coast has a high proportion of
ethnic Dutch descended from wartime refugees (who incidentally
established a large dairy industry). I presume refugees may have been
housed temporarily in centers or camps, but don't know for sure.
--
Don
Dan Hartung
<05566002704...@msn.com>...
> In Newark NY, I was a child in elementary school during the war. I think
I
> remember watching German Prisoners-of-War playing soccer in a fenced-in
> courtyard. My younger brother, now 62, doesn't think this could be
> possible--that German POW's would not have been sent to USA. I think I
am
> right, but have not been able to find information on this history.
Keep in mind that not all German POWs need have come from Germany
or European soil (although another post indicated some did). There were
also Germans taken prisoner during the capture of German naval and
merchant marine vessels on the high seas.
Judith Hammonds
Re: your suggestion of searching for more info. at local sites-- have not
been able to get anything from those web sites. Historical stuff apparently
not online. Your response and someone who emailed me directly were the
first substantial info I have been able to obtain.
Since the idea of having POW's sent to USA during the war, is a new idea for
my brother, he has two follow up questions--in event you might know--I'd
like to ask:
1. Wondering if you might know why this was done?
Guessing maybe problems with feeding, guarding etc.
2. Any idea of the numbers of POW's brought to US--or where info could be
obtained?
We both are very interested in history and figure there must be statistical
records someplace. Have checked with librarians on and off line with no
effective results.
Thanks again.
Judith
HCALTMANN
>"Judith Hammonds" <juday_ju...@msn.com> asked questions about German
POWs in the USA. May I comment?:
The best book on the subject is:
Arnold Kramer, Nazi Prisoners of War in America; Lanham, MD: Scarborough
House, 1979, ISBN0-8128-8526-0.
The prisoners were mostly members of the former Africa Corps and had been
captured in Tunis when 36,000 Germans and 5,800 Italians surrendered in May
1943. Others were captured in the first few weeks after the Invasion in June
1944.
The reason for taken them to America, rather than imprisoning them in Europe,
was that it was more practical to take the prisoners to the food, rather take
the food to the prisoners. There were a great many Allied ships going back to
America empty, and they might as well carry prisoners.
By the way, a considerable number of these prisoners were turned over to the
French after the war ended. -- Heinz
HCAl...@aol.com (Heinz Altmann)
polo
>
>
> 1. Wondering if you might know why this was done?
Perhaps for the ease of containment, or as potential
hostages. IIRC they were mostly naval.
Some were kept [I think] in Arizona, New Mexico or Colorado.
There were escapes, but it proved rather futile.
POWs were also sent to Canada, primarily Ontario.
There is a book on POWs in the US, but the name escapes me.
I have the book somewhere but I cannot find it at this moment.
If I find it I will post it here.
TGS1000
>Since the idea of having POW's sent to USA during the war, is a new idea for
>my brother, he has two follow up questions--in event you might know--I'd
>like to ask:
>
>
Believe it or not but in excess of a million POW's were sent to the US and
Canada and dispursed over a very wide swath of the two countries. They were
mainly used for agricultural purposes and sowed, grew and harvested many of the
crops grown during the war. When I was a GI in Germany in the early 70's I was
hitchhiking one day in the middle of nowhere when I was picked up by a farmer
in an old battered truck. I did not figure that he spoke English so made no
effort to talk with him but then he asked me where I was going in halting
English and I asked him how he knew English and he told me he was a POW in
Arizona during the war. I was flabbergasted.
Tom Smithdeal
HistoryBuff
--------------4E5D40EED17976E335C99D86
Judith,
I think the refugees at Oswego you speak of (Ft. Ontario, to be precise), 982
of them, from Italy, were Jews. It's a rather long story, which has been
described (see below). In 1944 the U.S. reluctantly took them in (we had a
"problem" with refugees because of immigration quotas, but the St. Dept. had
an anti-Semitism problem as well) in order to provide a "moral example" to the
rest of the United Nations, but they were regarded technically as POWs. At
the end of the war (Dec. 1945) Truman told the National Refugee Service that
the Ft. Ontario Jews could remain as quota immigrants.
Check: Harvey Strum, "Ft. Ontario Refugee Shelter, 1944-46," American Jewish
History 73 (June 1984): 398-421.
Juday wrote:
> In Oswego, N.Y. where we lived later, we went to school with European
> Refugees. Have just learned, briefly, that Refugees were in some kind of a
> detention center at Fort Oswego. As children, we were never aware of this.
> Does anyone have any information re: this particular history.
>
> Thanks for any helpful info.
>
> Judith Hammonds
> juday_ju...@msn.com
--
Steve Fox
E-mail: st...@humboldt1.com
Voice/Fax: (707) 839-1919
WWW: http://humboldt1.com/~stfox
--------------4E5D40EED17976E335C99D86
<HTML>
Judith,
<P>I <I>think</I> the refugees at Oswego you speak of (Ft. Ontario, to
be precise), 982 of them, from Italy, were Jews. It's a rather long
story, which has been described (see below). In 1944 the U.S. reluctantly
took them in (we had a "problem" with refugees because of immigration quotas,
but the St. Dept. had an anti-Semitism problem as well) in order to provide
a "moral example" to the rest of the United Nations, but they were regarded
technically as POWs. At the end of the war (Dec. 1945) Truman told
the National Refugee Service that the Ft. Ontario Jews could remain as
quota immigrants.
<P>Check: Harvey Strum, "Ft. Ontario Refugee Shelter, 1944-46," <U>American
Jewish History</U> 73 (June 1984): 398-421.
<P>Juday wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>In Oswego, N.Y. where we lived later, we went to
school with European
<BR>Refugees. Have just learned, briefly, that Refugees were in some
kind of a
<BR>detention center at Fort Oswego. As children, we were never aware
of this.
<BR>Does anyone have any information re: this particular history.
<P>Thanks for any helpful info.
<P>Judith Hammonds
<BR>juday_ju...@msn.com</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>--
<BR>Steve Fox
<BR>E-mail: st...@humboldt1.com
<BR>Voice/Fax: (707) 839-1919
<BR>WWW: <A HREF="http://humboldt1.com/~stfox">http://humboldt1.com/~stfox</A>
<BR> </HTML>
--------------4E5D40EED17976E335C99D86--
Othmer
>
>>Since the idea of having POW's sent to USA during the war, is a new idea
>>for my brother, he has two follow up questions--in event you might
>>know--I'd like to ask:
>>1. Wondering if you might know why this was done?
>Believe it or not but in excess of a million POW's were sent to the US and
>Canada and dispursed over a very wide swath of the two countries. They
>were mainly used for agricultural purposes and sowed, grew and harvested
>many of the crops grown during the war.
>snip<
There was an article in the Los Angeles Times about a year ago on this. When
the fighting in North Africa was over the US Army was left with 100's of
thousands of Italian POW's many of which were shipped to the US. Here in
Southern Californa at the time we had a lot of vineyards and winerys run by
Italian American's. During WWII around here there was quite a labor shortage
especially in argricultural. Anyway to make a long story short the owners of
the winerys and vineyards starting hiring the Italian POW's to work there
vineyards etc: Any way one thing led to another so that many of the Italian
POW,s got to like our local girls so much that after the war they came back
to Southern California and married them. Making wine and chasing girls is
the best way to fight a war no matter how you look at it. It sure beats
getting shot at by a mile, who said those Italian's wern't smart.
Alan Allport
wrote:
> The Geneve Convention evidently required that prisoners be held
> in a climate similar to that in which they were taken, which
> requirement the Americans evidently took seriously enough to send
> their prisoners to the Southwest. (The British, having no
> Southwest, sent theirs to Kenya...
Well, they certainly *did* have a Southwest; but whether the desolate sand
dunes of Exeter and Torquay would constitute sufficiently Saharan-like
conditions to satisfy the requirements of the Geneva Convention is another
matter entirely...
Alan.
--
***********************************
Alan Allport
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~allport/
***********************************