Canadian and German war crimes in Normandy
DBSDESIGN
> 134 Canadian soldiers were murdered in Normandy. That is a high
> number considering Canada has/had a relatively smaller population
> than the US. They were dragged out into the roads to be run over.
This is true, but the atrocities weren't exactly one-sided.
A while back in a different thread, I mentioned a Canadian TV
documentary website called "In Desperate Battle" which covers
Canadian Army operations Normandy. There's some information
about atrocities committed by both sides. This is a very large
website, so I'll note the relevant web pages.
Juno Beach
_____________________________________________________
You could argue that the Canadian Army actually drew first blood
in Normandy, on D-Day morning.
A British sailor named Edward Ashforth witnessed several German
prisoners being herded behind a sand dune by Canadian soldiers. So
Ashforth decided that he wants a German helmet for a souvenir. He
walked up the beach behind the dunes and found the German soldiers.
Ashforth said that..."Every one of them had their throat cut. I turned
away, sick as a parrot. I didn't get my tin hat." The Canadians who
murdered the German prisoners were probably from the 3rd Division
although this was not specified.
There has been allegations that some Allied officers gave orders
to kill prisoners and this seems to fuel the fire.
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/ISSUE/Abbaye/Gm_side.htm
Carpiquet Airfield
____________________________________________________
A similar incident occurred on July 4, near Carpiquet Airfield.
Sgt Leo Gariepy of the 4th Canadian Armoured Div. stated that,
"you will not read this in any official document, but ask anyone
who was there and he will tell you in a hush-hush tone." From
the turret of his Sherman tank, Sgt. Gariepy witnessed Canadian
troops from the Regiment de la Chaudiere in what he described
as a crazed frenzy, moving through the fields after a battle and
cutting the throats of wounded Germans from 12th SS Panzer.
The Canadians had to be stopped by their officers, some actually
at gunpoint to get them to calm down. Gariepy also mentioned
that this happened shortly before a so-called massacre of some
Canadian soldiers by the SS.
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/ISSUE/carpiquet.htm
Note: There is more info about Sgt. Leo Gariepy and Canadian
Armoured units at: http://www.steelchariots.net/index.htm
Good website for armour enthusiasts.
Verrieres???
____________________________________________________
One other incident involved 85 German prisoners. According to
Jacques Dextraze, a company commander of Montreal Regt. (later
Major-General) ordered his men to take the Germans to the local
POW cage. The Germans were forced to run several miles before
they came to a river crossing where the bridge had been cut. The
Canadians then forced the Germans to swim across. The Germans
were exhausted from the run and most of them drowned. Dextraze
said that he felt badly about the incident when he learned of it,
and felt responsible for the prisoners. Especially after he saw
the bodies pulled from the river and stacked next to the bridge.
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/ISSUE/Abbaye/Gm_side.htm
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/STORY/normandy_script.htm
____________________________________________________
None of this will justify the war crimes committed by the Germans
against Allied soldiers and civilians, but it does prove the Allies
were not above doing it themselves. And there is a real possibility
that in some cases, Allied troops may have initiated the violence
against POWs. The following pages from the same website cover
the German war crimes in Normandy, involving the murder of at
least 134 Canadian soldiers:
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/CHRON/June7_massacre.htm
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/ISSUE/POWs.htm
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/ISSUE/Abbaye/index.htm
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/ISSUE/Abbaye/Gm_side.htm
_____________________________________________________
D B S D E
S I G N @ a o l. c o m
_____________________________________________________
...All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by... - John Masefield
casita
Canada lost many more soldiers in the First War.
So, they were prepared for high casualties in the Second.
There is a statue of a Canadian Sergeant who was crucified in WW1.
The incident was investigated but, can not be verified.
But, if Canadian soldiers had seen or heard of the statue, I am sure it
would have made an impact.
The Canadian landing at Dieppe had been a massacre.
The Canadians captured at Dieppe in 1942 were kept in shackles at PW camp
by the Germans for most of the time.
So, I think there was no honeymoon period when they hit Normandy.
The 12th SS wasn't nicknamed the Murder Division for nothing.
Because they were Hitler Jugend, I think some people have the notion they
were little Richie Cunninghams.
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/antiprop/war_crimes_ww1/index.html
Mario
Although I do not agree with either, it is impossible for us (those who did
not fight in this war) to comment on any activity encountered during these
six long years.
Mario
George Hardy
True. It is important to compare "apples and apples". For that
reason, one may compare the holocaust with the US treatment of
German POWs. Any war crimes by soldiers at Normandy, or any
other battlefield location (even the Bulge), regardless of which
side, are in a different category.
GFH
***************************************************************
http://www.ankerstein.org/
The Anchor Stone Building Set (Anker-Steinbaukasten) Home Page
See what makes me tick.
***************************************************************
Alexandre Walkling-Ribeiro
casita schrieb:
<Snip>
> Because they were Hitler Jugend, I think some people have the notion they
> were little Richie Cunninghams.
More likely Leonardo di Caprios. But I don't see your point. Do you
propose a war crime diminishes with the age of the victim?
Regards, Alex.
--
"Emporung, die bis zum Ha? ansteigt, Besorgnis, die bis zur Furcht geht,
sind schlechte Ratgeber. Sie sind geeignet, das Gefuhl fur das Recht zu
truben." (Generalfeldmarschall v.Manstein)
bil...@uwindsor.ca
dbsd...@aol.com (DBSDESIGN) wrote:
> "casita" <cas...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > 134 Canadian soldiers were murdered in Normandy. That is a high
> > number considering Canada has/had a relatively smaller population
> > than the US. They were dragged out into the roads to be run over.
>
>
been pretty thoroughly discredited by the veterans. Also, I think that there
is a big difference from individual atrocities committed by soldiers in the
heat of battle and the systemic atrocities committed by the SS.
I just read an interesting account of an incident in the Rhineland campaign
in 1945. Apparently, a sniper shot a couple of Canadian troops but
surrendered with about 30 of his buddies when a Wasp flamethrower was brought
up. An enraged young soldier who had just lost one of his friends to this
sniper wanted to shoot him. The Sgt-Major took him aside and said, "We don't
do that."
Invidual soldiers of all armies will commit atrocities especially if
discipline starts to fall. However, SS troops were trained to commit
atrocities and committed them with great frequency. It's inappropriate to
compare the atrocities of individuals versus systemic atrocities of
organizations.
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DBSDESIGN
dbsd...@aol.com (DBSDESIGN) wrote:
>> This is true, but the atrocities weren't exactly one-sided.
> I noticed that all of your cites were from the Valour and the Horror
It doesn't exactly paint a flattering picture of the Canadian Army
in Normandy. I can see why some veterans might be angry about it,
because not enough was said about the heroic side of Canadians in
battle. And there were plenty of heroics to cover. It was mostly
negative instead, but it was a Canadian TV production, or no?
> which has been pretty thoroughly discredited by the veterans.
What specifically was discredited?
You mean that certain veterans denied what Maj. General Dextraze
said, or claimed what Sgt. Gariepy said isn't true? Ashforth too?
> I think that there is a big difference from individual atrocities
> committed by soldiers in the heat of battle and the systemic
> atrocities committed by the SS.
I agree. But that probably doesn't matter much to the dead.
> It's inappropriate to compare the atrocities of individuals versus
> systemic atrocities of organizations.
Definitely, but I didn't compare those two things. You did. I was
comparing war crimes committed on a battlefield by both sides.
casita
>propose a war crime diminishes with the age of the victim?
Age of the victim?
It's the age of the perpetrator I would be more concerned with.
Is there a minimum age that you can be charged with a war crime?
Is there a "Young Offenders Act" for war criminals?
I read that other German units referred to the 12th SS Hitlerjugend as the
"Murder Division". I recall reading they were all born in 1926 ( I do not
have a cite for that ).
I think the 12th SS was one of the most fearsome German units in Normandy.
casita
>is a big difference from individual atrocities committed by soldiers in the
>heat of battle and the systemic atrocities committed by the SS.
I agree, Bill.
First on the old Western Front and then in Normandy, German infantry had
become experienced at digging in and making Allied advances slow and bloody
( ie: first 20 mins SPR and Steam boat Willie ). Perhaps Canadians didn't
always show as much patience as they could have.
Pzrgren
pass along. Every Army taking part in WWII committed atrocities. There
were absolutely no exceptions The Normandy and Caen fighting areas saw
quite a few committed by both British, Canadian, and other German forces
besides the 12th SS 'Hitler Jugend:
The soldier who kills out of rage is not in control and any soldier is
terribly mistaken in killing soldiers who have surrendered. This only
serves to steel the resolve of those oppossing them. Chivalry on the field
of battle should be reserved for POW's only, it is a terribly outdate
code..those oppossing you should be annhilated by whatever means
necessary. Total combat is just that..TOTAL. Smoke, burning oil,
whatever..if it kills the enemy then so be it.
casita
>were absolutely no exceptions The Normandy and Caen fighting areas saw
>quite a few committed by both British, Canadian, and other German forces
>besides the 12th SS 'Hitler Jugend:
What Canadians ever rounded up an entire town of French women and children
into a church, locked it, threw in grenades and buried it down?
What German airmen ended up in concentration camps?
Canadians captured at Dieppe spent most of the war in shackles.
June 8, 1944, 37 Canadians were ordered to sit down in a field with their
wounded in the middle. In a short while a half track arrived with 8 or 9
German soldiers brandishing machine guns. Advancing in a line towards the
prisoners they opened fire killing 35 Canadians. Two escaped and were
recaptured.
Around 40 more Canadian PWs were individually killed on the march back to
the rear. Eight were ordered to remove their helmets and then shot with
automatic rifles. The Canadians were dragged out on to the road and left to
be run over by trucks and tanks. Courageous French civilians pulled the
bodies back on to the pavement but were ordered to stop and drag the bodies
back on to the road again.
June 7 and 8, 1944. 20 Canadian PWs were locked up in a stable, called out
by name, and shot in the back of the head.
8 June. 26 Canadian PWs shot.
134 ( minimum Canadians were murdered ).
86 American GIs were murdered at Malmedy.
Kevin Lambie
says...
>
>bil...@uwindsor.ca wrote:
>
>dbsd...@aol.com (DBSDESIGN) wrote:
>>> This is true, but the atrocities weren't exactly one-sided.
>
>> I noticed that all of your cites were from the Valour and the Horror
>
>It doesn't exactly paint a flattering picture of the Canadian Army
>in Normandy. I can see why some veterans might be angry about it,
>because not enough was said about the heroic side of Canadians in
>battle. And there were plenty of heroics to cover. It was mostly
>negative instead, but it was a Canadian TV production, or no?
Which isn't surprising, as it appears the objective of the producers (TV news
people, not historians) was to paint an unflattering picture of the Canadian
Army in Normandy. Well done gentlemen. The lack of balance and perspective
pervaded the entire series.
>> which has been pretty thoroughly discredited by the veterans.
>
>What specifically was discredited?
There is an entire book written on the subject ("Valour and Horror Revisited",
Bercuson and Wise, 1994). I can't dig it up right now, but recall seeing
somewhere a list of 41 (or perhaps 21?) factual errors in one episode, probably
the Bomber Command story. In addition to veterans, Canadian historians who
support the series can be counted on one hand, and as far as I recall, all do
so with reservations. They support some aspects of the series, rejecting most
of the rest. The Ombudsman of the producing network raised many serious
questions about the series. It's also my contention that demanding that
detractors list the incorrect "facts" misses the point. The producers
selectively chose only the facts that supported their attempts to "break" these
fifty year old stories. The issue is the use of "facts" or statements and
deliberately ignoring the context in which they occurred, or relying on their
contextual ambiguity to support only one side of the argument. These are the
tactics of the news media, not historians. The CBC Ombudsman wrote "Accuracy
is not achieved simply by making sure that the facts chosen for presentation
are right. To be accurate means ensuring that all relevant facts are present."
In their rebuttal, the producers respond "Says who?". These are the arbiters
of truth whose interpretation we are to accept.
>You mean that certain veterans denied what Maj. General Dextraze
>said, or claimed what Sgt. Gariepy said isn't true? Ashforth too?
>
>> I think that there is a big difference from individual atrocities
>> committed by soldiers in the heat of battle and the systemic
>> atrocities committed by the SS.
>
>I agree. But that probably doesn't matter much to the dead.
>
>> It's inappropriate to compare the atrocities of individuals versus
>> systemic atrocities of organizations.
>
>Definitely, but I didn't compare those two things. You did. I was
>comparing war crimes committed on a battlefield by both sides.
And before he did, the producers of the program made the comparison and drew no
distinction between them. You rely on their interpretation for your
assertions.
--
Kevin Lambie
KLambie...@telusplanet.net
Remove .NOBOTS for email
Lech K. Lesiak
> Canadians captured at Dieppe spent most of the war in shackles.
The Germans shackled a few prisoners for a short time
in response to the Brits doing that to German POWs. Fortunately, both
sides soon came to their senses. Cite one source that backs this
statement up. Some of the Canadians involved in The Great Escape had been
taken at Dieppe. I don't recall that either the book or the movie
depicted any of them in shackles. The movie was pretty accurate, except
for the motorcycle riding and airplane stealing scenes.
As far as Canadians killing entire villages of civilians goes, they never
did, so far as I know. But Patton's boys did. The Concordia University
library in Montreal has a book written by a chaplain's assistant who
served in Patton's outfit in Europe. He describes an incident where a
German sniper shot a US MP directing traffic. The local US commander
ordered the town evacuated of US troops, surrounded it with armour, and
leveled it, killing hundreds of German civilians. I didn't write down the
reference, unfortunately, but maybe someone in this NG recognizes it.
Cheers,
Lech
Calgary, Alberta
casita
>statement up.
I'll give you a couple.
One is the Government of Canada.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/historical/secondwar/dieppe/beal.htm
"In Enemy hands: Canadian prisoners of war 1939-1945" by Daniel G.
Dancocks.
Jeff Heidman
> The local US commander
> ordered the town evacuated of US troops, surrounded it with armour, and
> leveled it, killing hundreds of German civilians. I didn't write down the
> reference, unfortunately, but maybe someone in this NG recognizes it.
You had better find some sort of cite for a claim like that. I have never
heard anything like that, and I think I would have if there was any kind of
documentation at all. The butchering of an entire village full of civilians
by the military in cold blood would be a pretty major war crime.
Jeff Heidman