Did Luftwaffe use captured B-17s?
Noel J. Tominack, UCS, X3861
Hi group!
I decided to ask this question after seeing something on The
History Channel and remembering sometihng I read...
In a book about the air war over Europe, the chapter that talked
about the Schweinfurt raid mentioned that on the way there, air crews saw
a low-flying B-17 painted black-and-white, and they said it was a captured
bomber used to track the group's progress.
On the History Channel, they mentioned that Adolf Galland used to
tour the Luftwaffe bases in a captured B-17.
What I would like to know is:
Can anyone confirm the Luftwaffe flew any B-17s?
Were they built up from crashes or did they have intact planes?
What *did* they do with them anyway?
Did they use any other captured allied aircraft?
__________________________________________
* Noel J. Tominack (no...@umbc2.umbc.edu) | WHo won't get into the report
* University of Maryland Baltimore County | of a Navy officer finding a
* All opinions are mine mine mine! | Navy Hellcat in Japan, intact,
* ________________________________________| after the surrender.
Donald Phillipson
Noel J. Tominack, UCS, X3861 (no...@umbc2.umbc.edu) writes:
> . . .
> Can anyone confirm the Luftwaffe flew any B-17s?
> Were they built up from crashes or did they have intact planes?
> What *did* they do with them anyway?
> Did they use any other captured allied aircraft?
All combatants' flight research laboratories tried to fly captured enemy
aircraft, to verify intelligence about their performance. This happened
seldom, since few could be repaired to fly again. (Barrie Pitt's book
about the Western Desert war in N.Africa 1941 has a sad tale about an
intelligence officer's capturing a virgin BF-109E, and troops peppering it
for fun on the trailer in a parking lot.)
Doug Richardson's book on the B-17 pictures a B-17F in German colours,
serial no. 124585, used for clandestine missions by KG 200.
--
| Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs, |
| Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734 |
Alain Van Geeteruyen
Noel J. Tominack, UCS, X3861 wrote:
[Quoted material trimmed by moderator...rhm]
>
> Can anyone confirm the Luftwaffe flew any B-17s?
> Were they built up from crashes or did they have intact planes?
> What *did* they do with them anyway?
> Did they use any other captured allied aircraft?
See the book P.W. Stahl
Geheimgeschwader KG 200
Die warheit nach uber 30 jaren
Motor-Buch-Verlag Stuttgart.
Ex: with pictures: In March 1945 a B-17 with Oberfeldwebel
Knappenschneider and his crew crashed near Echterding (Stuttgart). The
airplane carried members of the french gouvernment (Vichy) in exile in
germany.
2 pictures of a B-17 captured and stationed at Hildesheim airfield in
march 1945.
The aircraft is painted with the Swastika on the tailrudder.
They also flew Liberators.
Some of those aricraft joined Allied bomber formations and supplied in
this way the enclosed german garnizons along the french coast. It was
not a regulary trip.
Actually, it is only now that several books concerning german specail
forces and secret operations in german language are coming into the
open. It is starting to get intressant, but we still have to wait a few
months before their sortie.
Alan
Al...@innet.be
MF006
The Germans did use captured B-17's. They used them to infiltrate bomber
formations and they used them for covert operations. Regarding the latter,
a book named "The Werewolves" (written in the 1960s' about the
organization of a German resistance movement behind Allied lines) states
that a captured B-17 was used to drop Werewolve commandoes near the first
captured German city so that they could murder the new mayor who was
considered a traitor by the German government.
Roger Basford
In article <4lqbvl$2...@portal.gmu.edu>, "Noel J. Tominack, UCS, X3861"
<no...@umbc2.umbc.edu> writes
>
>
>Can anyone confirm the Luftwaffe flew any B-17s?
>Were they built up from crashes or did they have intact planes?
>What *did* they do with them anyway?
>Did they use any other captured allied aircraft?
>
>
>
>
Try reading "KG200" by F. W. Stahl, I don't have the ISBN number to
hand. There is some detail on captured B17s and B24s being used by the
Lufwaffe and also an account of the setting up of a forward base in the
North African desert using B17s as supply a/c. (This is after the defeat
of the Afrika Korps!).
*///////////////////////////////////////*
* e-mail: Bas...@g3vkm.demon.co.uk *
* Roger Basford, Haddiscoe, Norfolk U.K.*
*///////////////////////////////////////*
KWeiler854
Noel,
A number of the questions you ask can be answered in a book I have that I
found to be quite interesting. It's "Strangers in a Strange Land", by
Hans-Heiri Stapfer, Squadron/Signal Publications, Carrollton, TX, 1988.
It deals with the hundreads (thousands?) of allied aircraft shot, forced
and downed due to mechanical problems over German occupied Europe. The
bulk of the work deal with the Berg-Bataillone (salvage units) of the
Luftwaffe and these units stationed primarily in France, Holland and
Belguim and, of course, Germany. As each allied four engined bomber
yeilded approximately 35,000 of usable salvage, mostly aluminum, as the
war progressed this new found 'natural resource' could not be ignored.
In addition to the salvage operation was the Deutsche Versuchsantalt fur
Luftfahrt (DVL) units or technical evaluation units. The book shows a
number of captured allied heavy, medium and attack bombers, fighters and
transport aircraft in Luftwaffe service, markings and camoflage undergoing
DVL evaluation. There is a eight page color center section showing the
fate of some of these machines, including P-51B's and D's, P-47's, B-17's
of all marks, B-24's, C-47's and a smattering of other US and allied
machines. I hope this helps.
Ken Weiler
Sterling, Virginia
CDB100620
A complete listing of all allied aircraft captured by axis powers is
contained in "Strangers in a Strange Land" by Hans-Heiri Stapfer. The
book contains lots of photos, and recounts in detail the story of the only
captured allied plane (a P-38 in Italian service) used to shoot down an
allied plane (a B-17). Has a picture of the P-38 in Italian colors.
Mikael Olrog
MF006,mf...@aol.com,Internet wrote at on
to soc.hist.world-war-ii about "Re: Did Luftwaffe use captured B-17s?":
-----------------------------
>
>The Germans did use captured B-17's. They used them to infiltrate bomber
>formations and they used them for covert operations.
Hans-Heiri Stapfer writes in his book "Strangers in a strange land",
Squadron/signal Publications, 1988, ISBN 0-89747-198-9 "It is doubtful that
the Luftwaffe ever operated captured American bombers in American markings
to shadow USAAF formations over Germany."
-----------------------------
Mikael
mikael...@ssco.se
--- OffRoad 1.9n unregistered
Alain Van Geeteruyen
MF006 wrote:
>
> The Germans did use captured B-17's. They used them to infiltrate bomber
> formations and they used them for covert operations. Regarding the latter,
> a book named "The Werewolves" (written in the 1960s' about the
> organization of a German resistance movement behind Allied lines) states
> that a captured B-17 was used to drop Werewolve commandoes near the first
> captured German city so that they could murder the new mayor who was
> considered a traitor by the German government.
Sorry, But this is bullschitt.
It is amazing, but the german werewolves only existed in the minds of
some deranged Nazi and panicky american soldiers.
It is treu that there werre action of die-hard Nazi against
collaborators, and yes tehy used to write werewolve on walls, just as
resistance peaple usd to paint the V-sign on the walls.
Other than that an an occasional agression there was nothing.
However, the American managed to sentence to death two german boys of I
believe 15 or 16 years old on charges of belonging to that
Nazi-organisation.
Alain van geeteruyen
Alan.innet.be
Mikael Olrog
Donald Phillipson,ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA,Internet wrote at on
to soc.hist.world-war-ii about "Re: Did Luftwaffe use captured B-17s?".
Hans-Heiri Stapfer lists in his book "Strangers in a strange land",
Squadron/signal Publications, 1988, ISBN 0-89747-198-9,
seven different B-17 individuals that Luftwaffe flew.
/Mikael
Stephen Lautens
In article <4lqbvl$2...@portal.gmu.edu>, no...@umbc2.umbc.edu (Noel J.
Tominack, UCS, X3861) wrote:
">"Can anyone confirm the Luftwaffe flew any B-17s?
">"Were they built up from crashes or did they have intact planes?
">"What *did* they do with them anyway?
">"Did they use any other captured allied aircraft?
">"
There is a complete roster of Allied aircraft in use by the Luftwaffe in
STRANGERS IN A STRANGE LAND by Stapfer. Also see KG200 by PW Stahl,
Kommandant of one of the KG200 units.
Hals und Bein!
--
Stephen
http://www.beachnet.org/sjl
("The future isn't what it used to be.")
John Waters
Mikael...@ssco.se (Mikael Olrog) wrote:
>MF006,mf...@aol.com,Internet wrote at on
>Hans-Heiri Stapfer writes in his book "Strangers in a strange land",
>Squadron/signal Publications, 1988, ISBN 0-89747-198-9 "It is doubtful that
>the Luftwaffe ever operated captured American bombers in American markings
>to shadow USAAF formations over Germany."
You know I remember reading a long time ago(somewhere mayb Jablonski's
Airwar or Flying Fortress?) that several times during the war
"unidentified" B-17's tried to form up or join B-17 formations, but were
fired on and drven off. I'll have to see if I can find the passage.
Another interesting thing IMO is that Danny S. Parkers "To Win The Winter
Sky", he has several passages on Silver? P-47's attacking Allied
formations over the Ardennes yet if I remember right, their was no
Luftwaffe records found of them using captured P-47's. Intersting.
Regards, John Waters
Brent Richards
In the book"Air War Over Hitler's Germany" by Stephen Sears. Mission
52 of the 8th Air Force on April 17th 1943 to Bremen is described in
detail. Over the North Sea, the first sign of the enemy is a black
painted B 17 that shadowed the formation, radioing course, speed, size
& altitude of the formation to the Luftwaffe defense network. The
rogue Fortress broke away as the formation crossed over the Frisian
Islands. Hope this helps.
--
Brent Richards
Garden Grove, CA
Julian Jacobson
John Comer describes 2 enemy B-17s seen during a raid on
Romilly near Paris on 3rd September 1943 by the 381st BG,
in his book "Combat Crew" 1988.
A B-17 was seen trailing a thousand yards behind the formation,
with 2 Me-109s in escort, when it starting firing 20mm at the
Americans. P-47s shot it down, and brown German parachutes
came out.
On the way home, across the English Channel, a B-17 left the
formation to fly back to France.
julian
Michael E. Mullen
s...@interlog.com (Stephen Lautens) wrote:
>In article <4lqbvl$2...@portal.gmu.edu>, no...@umbc2.umbc.edu (Noel J.
>Tominack, UCS, X3861) wrote:
>">"Can anyone confirm the Luftwaffe flew any B-17s?
>">"Were they built up from crashes or did they have intact planes?
>">"What *did* they do with them anyway?
>">"Did they use any other captured allied aircraft?
>">"
>There is a complete roster of Allied aircraft in use by the Luftwaffe in
>STRANGERS IN A STRANGE LAND by Stapfer. Also see KG200 by PW Stahl,
>Kommandant of one of the KG200 units.
I read _KG200_ several years ago. Several photographs of B24's and
B17's with Swatstikas on them. Apparently the captured aircraft were
used only as transports, since the Germans had a lack of large, fast,
rugged transport aircraft. As I recall, the author claimed that these
aircraft were never disguised as allied aircraft, and were not used in
combat.
--
Michael E. Mullen
MEMu...@aol.com and others...
Mikael Olrog
John Waters,JWa...@imcbbs.imcnet.net,Internet wrote at on
to soc.hist.world-war-ii about "Re(2): Did Luftwaffe use captured B-17s?":
-----------------------------
>
>You know I remember reading a long time ago(somewhere mayb Jablonski's
>Airwar or Flying Fortress?) that several times during the war
>"unidentified" B-17's tried to form up or join B-17 formations, but were
>fired on and drven off. I'll have to see if I can find the passage.
Yes I would very much like to have confirmation on this matter. The
explanation I have heard have been something like: The gunners and pilots
etc have been frightened (Quite natural I think) when unidentified B17 have
tryed to join the formation. Could these B17 have been aircraft from other
formations and units? Stragglers trying to get into the "box"? I have never
encountered a German source stating that they used B17 or any other allied
aircraft for shadowing. It is logical that there either would be some
documents (The Germans enjoyed keeping them!) or some German witnesses
telling their story about this if it really had happened. As until now I have
only
encountered Allied sources on this topic.
>Another interesting thing IMO is that Danny S. Parkers "To Win The Winter
>Sky", he has several passages on Silver? P-47's attacking Allied
>formations over the Ardennes yet if I remember right, their was no
>Luftwaffe records found of them using captured P-47's. Intersting.
>
>Regards, John Waters
In the same book as I quoted in my last letter,"Strangers in a strange land",
>Squadron/signal Publications, 1988, ISBN 0-89747-198-9 by Hans-Heiri
Stapfer, the German use of P47 is mentioned. He writes that The Luftwaffe
operated at least three P47 aircraft. One of these was used atleast twice in
reconnaisance flights over England prior to the invasion.
According to the same source (boring to only be able to site one source!)
the only confirmed victory over an American bomber with an american fighter
flown by the enemy is the one scored by the italian pilot Tondi on August
11, 1943. It's indeed inresting!
Regards /Mikael
-----------------------------
Mikael Olrog
John Waters
Mikael...@ssco.se (Mikael Olrog) wrote:
>Yes I would very much like to have confirmation on this matter. The
>explanation I have heard have been something like: The gunners and pilots
>etc have been frightened (Quite natural I think) when unidentified B17 have
>tryed to join the formation. Could these B17 have been aircraft from other
>formations and units? Stragglers trying to get into the "box"? I have never
>encountered a German source stating that they used B17 or any other allied
>aircraft for shadowing. It is logical that there either would be some
>documents (The Germans enjoyed keeping them!) or some German witnesses
>telling their story about this if it really had happened. As until now I have
>only encountered Allied sources on this topic.
According to Jablonski's "Flying Fortress" captured B17's were used by
Zs1, Zestroyer Schule 1 to train German Fighter pilots on how to attack
B-17s. And the Germans also used the "unmarked" B-17's to join B-17
formations and radio info to the incoming German Jadg-Gruppen. I am still
trying to locate the relevant passage about the gunners opening up on the
"strange" unmarked B-17's. I also seem to racall an 8th AF order that said
no "unfimiliar" B-17's(aircraft) were to be allowed to join with the
formations unless identified through some means?. I'll see if I can dig
that up to.
>In the same book as I quoted in my last letter,"Strangers in a strange land",
>
>>Squadron/signal Publications, 1988, ISBN 0-89747-198-9 by Hans-Heiri
>Stapfer, the German use of P47 is mentioned. He writes that The Luftwaffe
>operated at least three P47 aircraft. One of these was used atleast twice in
>
>reconnaisance flights over England prior to the invasion.
>
>According to the same source (boring to only be able to site one source!)
>the only confirmed victory over an American bomber with an american fighter
>flown by the enemy is the one scored by the italian pilot Tondi on August
>11, 1943. It's indeed inresting!
Parker's "To Win The Winter Sky" ISBN-0-938289-35-7 also has an passage
taken from the Allied Debriefs after the Bodenplatte operation, of an
unmarked P-51 that was leading a large German fighter formation. Seems a
Sqd.Ldr. Lennie Lambert and Flt. Lt.John D Stubbs from Typhoon Squadron
168. came upon a lone unmarked Mustang that they "thought" was being
chased by a large German fighter force, so they(and the whole 168 sqdrn)
dove down to distract the enemy fighters from the mustang and a wild
dogfight broke out but neither side reported any victory claims. Lambert
reported that they were told the next day "a mustang" had led the German
attack on Evere or Melsbroek. Parker in his footnote # 103 Stated he could
find no evidence of a German flown P-51 flown or involved in the
Bodenplatte. But 2 corroberating RAF Witnesses lent credence to the story.
And their are scattered reports all through the Ardennes air battles of
"Silver" P47's aggressively attacking allied formations, but no reports of
Allied fighters being shot down by the mysterious P-47's or vice-versa,
and no Luftwaffe records could be found that said the Germans used
captured P-47's on those dates or in the Ardennes, so this becomes very
intersting IMO, as you stated the Germans kept records meticulously,
usualy so what do we have here? with all these instances of attacks
formation leading etc, and if I remember right no American P-47's were
operating in the areas the Silver P47's were aggresively attacking in.
Regards, John Waters
Henning Forsstrxm
In article <4mv9c7$2...@bessel.nando.net>, memu...@aol.com says...
>I read _KG200_ several years ago. Several photographs of B24's and
>B17's with Swatstikas on them. Apparently the captured aircraft were
>used only as transports, since the Germans had a lack of large, fast,
>rugged transport aircraft. As I recall, the author claimed that these
>aircraft were never disguised as allied aircraft, and were not used in
>combat.
>
I read in this book by Time-Life i think, about the eutropean air-war
that luftwaffe flew captured B 17's into US formations to determine
heading and speed. And they also had this 'Target' squadron which
travelled around to give the fighter pilots some practice on attacking
the B 17's.
Henning
>
>--
>Michael E. Mullen
>MEMu...@aol.com and others...
>
--
====================================================
-Yeah and all you need from me
Is everything I've ever seen
- The Cure, It Used To Be Me
email:henn...@kihdata.kih.no
Mikael Olrog
John Waters,JWa...@imcbbs.imcnet.net,Internet wrote at on
to soc.hist.world-war-ii about "Re(3): Did Luftwaffe use captured B-17s?".
I have also encountered that Allied order, not to let in single bombers into
their formation, but that doesn't confirm that the Germans actually used
allied bomber to shadow. It only confirmes that the Allied flyers took this
matter serious and that the HQ also took this serious. Personaly I have
difficulties in beliving only Allied sources. It ought to be some German
sources mentioning this, as I said before.
Intersting story about the silver P51. I haven't encounterd that one
before. Could it have been longnosed Fw190D? It's very difficult to be sure
of what aircraft you see in action. On the other hand the Germans used a a
spitfire against the Allies in Africa on recconaisanse flights. I site from
the magazine Fly past June 1996. "It is doubtful that any of these aircraft
(British captured fIghters) were used against allies in Europe." A German
special unit, Brandenburger, used one spifire in Northafrica. "In June
1942, a special unit was created and sent to Africa. In view of Rommels
advance , these commandos had to cross the dessert to Tschad and cut off
the Allie's supply. Oberleutnant Von Leipzig's company consisted of around
100 men, dressed in Allied uniforms with 30 captured vehicles and aircover
courtesey of a captured spitfire, flown by a Hauptman of the Branderburger,
who ferried the spifitire from Europe."
So now we now that the Germans used allied aircraft (a spifire in africa
and a P47 over England) on recce flights. Where there any more recce
flights? Where they used aggressively?
You mentioned a P47 over the Ardennes. Could they have been used for recce?
I wonder would it be smart for the Germans to use one of their few and
precious examples of aquired Allied aircraft to bring down one, two or
maybee three Allied aricraft before going down themself? Wouldn't these
captured aircraft be best used as they where, to train German pilots in
attacking
real Allied aircraft. It's a cost- benefit situation.
Of course Allied moral would have suffered (as it actually did all the
reports are evidence of this) if the Germans used captured
aircraft but then the Allies probably have done the same. Question is did
they?
Mikael Olrog
--- OffRoad 1.9n unregistered
Edward French
hello,
how were the B-17's captured?
--
hug the day
Bill Shatzer
Edward French (pos...@voicenet.com) writes:
> hello,
>
> how were the B-17's captured?
>
They were emergency landings of damaged or crippled aircraft
in German-controlled territory. In several cases the crew
thought (or, at least claimed they thought) they were landing
in Switzerland or Sweden.
cheers,
--
Bill Shatzer - bsha...@orednet.org -or- aw...@FreeNet.Carleton.ca
Ferdinando D'Amico
In article <4mvllj$i...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Mikael...@ssco.se (Mikael Olrog) wrote:
>In the same book as I quoted in my last letter,"Strangers in a strange land",
>Squadron/signal Publications, 1988, ISBN 0-89747-198-9 by Hans-Heiri
>Stapfer, the German use of P47 is mentioned. He writes that The Luftwaffe
>operated at least three P47 aircraft. One of these was used atleast twice in
>
>reconnaisance flights over England prior to the invasion.
>
>According to the same source (boring to only be able to site one source!)
>the only confirmed victory over an American bomber with an american fighter
>flown by the enemy is the one scored by the italian pilot Tondi on August
>11, 1943. It's indeed inresting!
I can personally confirm the exactness of the statements of Stapfer. As I
have already written once in rec.aviation.military (let me quote
myself...):
--------
"The only P-38 ever owned by the Regia Aeronautica was captured on 12 June
1943 in Sardinia where a ferrying US pilot landed by mistake due to the
malfunctioning of the compass. Soon brought to the Italian Test Center of
Guidonia (near Rome), this aircraft was flown *with Italian markings* by
Col. Angelo Tondi (Chief test pilot of the center) in half a dozen
scrambles against USAAF bombers attacking Rome and Central Italy's targets.
On 11 August 1943 Col. Tondi intercepted off the coast the B-17F s/n
42-30307 of 419th BS, 301st BG and shot down it at 12.00 hrs*. This was the
only successful interception completed by this aircraft and soon after the
P-38 was grounded due to the bad quality of the Italian petrol that had
corroded the fuel tanks (as correctly deducted by Mr. Charles K. Scott in
his posting).
* (cfr. Missing Air Crew Report n.490 available at the National Archives)
All the above is obviously proved not only by photographic evidence but
also by the accounts of Col. Tondi and by the documents of the Guidonia
Test Center reporting all the scrambles effected by the P-38. This material
is available to the researchers at the Italian Air Force Historical
Branch."
------------
Concerning the sighting of enemy-flown P-47s, I can mention one further
occasion that I have come across while searching about a combat taking
place in Italy on April 2, 1945.
The dog-fight involved the P-47s of both 346th and 347th Squadrons of 350th
Fighter Group against the Bd 109s of the Italian ANR IInd Gruppo Caccia. In
the thick of the combat (which saw the U.S.fighters shoot down 13 enemy
aicraft for no loss!), at least three US pilots stated in their combat
report the sighting of an unknown "razorback" P-47 in olive drab paint and
with no markings on. The P-47 managed to escape and I have been unable to
find any other source confirming this, even among the Italian pilots who
took part to the combat. Another WWII mystery?
_/_/_/_/
_/ Ferdinando D'Amico_____
_/_/_/ Co-Admin Asterisco
_/ Prato-Italy-**39-(0)574-575718
_/
E-Mail: F_DA...@asterisco.texnet.it
Shane Gallaher
In regards to as how they "captured" these B-17s, maybe they (the Luff)
performed stunts as whitnessed in recent movie block-busters such as
'CLiffhanger' and 'Exectutive Decision'!!!!
Hehehehehe!
Sorry!! :)
Cheers, Shane
edu-...@jcu.edu.au
Kweals
I had read (I believe in the Squadron/Signal Regia Areonautica book) that
the captured P38 was shot down by an american B17 "gunship" The italian
pilot had great success in knocking down B17s using the captured aircraft.
The american 15th Air Force learned of the rogue aircraft and developed a
B17 "gunship" to fly formation with the regular bombers. To ensure that
the italian pilot( Col Tondi I believe) would attack the gunship, the
americans had a portrait of the Colonel's wife blown up and affixed to the
side of their 17. Tondi becaqme enraged when he saw this, attacked the
gunship, and was promptly shot down
Bill Shatzer
This is, of course, utter nonesense. Tondi shot down -one- American
bomber in the P-38; a 12th AF B-17 on August 11, 1943. Several other
attempts were unsuccessful but Tondi and the P-38 were -never- shot
down - by a YB-40 or by any other allied aircraft. The P-38 was
eventually grounded through lack of spare parts and the adverse
effects of using low-octane Italian avgas in the P-38's Allisons.
But it was never shot down.
The 'picture of his wife' story is nonsensical if you think about
it. Heck, the intellegence effort just to identify the pilot and
then locate a photo of his wife is staggering - that kind of
intellegence effort would be far better spent in just locating
the field were the P-38 was based and then bombing the hell outa
it.
Cheers,
Timothy
The Germans did use captured B-17's and a B-24 as part of KG200.
This "spy" geschwader used the captured planes for dropping agents behind
the front and a few far fetched plans. One included setting up bases in
Africa to cut off supply lines through Monrovia. This plan failed even
though a number of transit bases had been set up through the Sahara Desert
because an agent was captured in Monrovia with German cigerettes. Also
members of the Vichy French government were killed when a B-17 carrying
them into exile crashed shortly after take off in March, 1945. KG 200
operated at night due to complete allied control of the air and used planes
clearly marked as German. For more info see "KG 200-The True Story" by
P.W. Stahl (Commander Detachment Olga-a unit of KG 200)
John D. Powers
Michael E. Mullen wrote:
> >">"Can anyone confirm the Luftwaffe flew any B-17s?
> >">"Were they built up from crashes or did they have intact planes?
> >">"What *did* they do with them anyway?
> >">"Did they use any other captured allied aircraft?
> >There is a complete roster of Allied aircraft in use by the Luftwaffe in
> >STRANGERS IN A STRANGE LAND by Stapfer. Also see KG200 by PW Stahl,
> >Kommandant of one of the KG200 units.
> B17's with Swatstikas on them. Apparently the captured aircraft were
> used only as transports, since the Germans had a lack of large, fast,
> rugged transport aircraft. As I recall, the author claimed that these
> aircraft were never disguised as allied aircraft, and were not used in
> combat.
I have seen a reference in, I believe, "B-17: Fortress at War"
(a picture/tech book), by ___ Freeman (I could be wrong about the source,
but I have seen it stated somewhere) that Germany operated the B-17s
mentioned above and used them to shadow bomber formations to help track them.
This is supposedly the root cause of the allied bomber crew paranoia about
unidentified a/c trying to join formation.
Since I cannot specifically quote this reference, I consider it suspect,
but I offer it as a matter of course.
-- JDP
Atlanta, GA
O-
Fredfaxx
<<I have seen a reference in, I believe, "B-17: Fortress at War"
(a picture/tech book), by ___ Freeman (I could be wrong about the source,
but I have seen it stated somewhere) that Germany operated the B-17s
mentioned above and used them to shadow bomber formations to help track
them.
This is supposedly the root cause of the allied bomber crew paranoia about
unidentified a/c trying to join formation.>>
The RAF used numerous captured German machines but not to my knowledge, in
combat against the Luftwaffe. I believe that they were used to train RAF
pilots to better understand the capabilities of their enemy's technology.
I have seen photos of ME110's and BF109's in RAF livery. Kampfgeschwader
200 was set up along similar lines although one book I read mentioned RAF
bomber crews being warned of captured Lancasters and Halifaxes being used
as gunships against the them. The weakness with this argument is how would
a nightfighter tell the difference?
Regards
Mark
Noel J. Tominack, UCS, X3861
In a previous article, Kennedy How <howl...@tir.com> wrote:
>Fredfaxx wrote:
>>
>> <<I have seen a reference in, I believe, "B-17: Fortress at War"
>> (a picture/tech book), by ___ Freeman (I could be wrong about the source,
>> but I have seen it stated somewhere) that Germany operated the B-17s
>> mentioned above and used them to shadow bomber formations to help track
>> them.
>
>some info on B-17s in Luftwaffe service.
I called them up recently, "Strangers in a Strange Land" is out of print.
However, they have made a sequel. "Strangers in a Strange Lan, Volume 2,
Escape to Neutrality". It deals mostly with the American B-17s and B-24s
that landed in Switzerland. It sounds as detailed as its predecessor, with
lots of photographs and color plates. Throughout the book are passages
about the Swiss uses for these aircraft, their feelings regarding Germany
and capturing pilots, and the air firelds that housed all the planes.
If somone out there wants to swap please email :)
>[snip]
__________________________________________
* Noel J. Tominack (no...@umbc2.umbc.edu) |
* University of Maryland Baltimore County |
* All opinions are mine mine mine! |
* ________________________________________|
Kennedy How
Fredfaxx wrote:
>
> <<I have seen a reference in, I believe, "B-17: Fortress at War"
> (a picture/tech book), by ___ Freeman (I could be wrong about the source,
> but I have seen it stated somewhere) that Germany operated the B-17s
> mentioned above and used them to shadow bomber formations to help track
> them.
There is also a Squadron Signal book, Strangers in a Strange Land, which has
some info on B-17s in Luftwaffe service.
[snip]
> I have seen photos of ME110's and BF109's in RAF livery. Kampfgeschwader
> 200 was set up along similar lines although one book I read mentioned RAF
> bomber crews being warned of captured Lancasters and Halifaxes being used
> as gunships against the them. The weakness with this argument is how would
> a nightfighter tell the difference?
Well, perhaps the nightfighters would be vectored in later, letting the
gunships do their thing first (or vice versa). I'd send the fighters in
first to disrupt the flow. Then, when they get near the target, I'd send in
the gunships, hey, I'm a lost Lanc or Hali, got separated in the battle.
After they exit the target area, they'd disappear, and let the Wilde Sows do
their thing again.
Kennedy
Cassan4929
The current issue of FlyPast (a British based, aviatation magazine) has an
article discussing the Luftwafe's use of captured US and British bombers.
The primary use for captured aircraft was evaluation. Examination the
aircraft to find the exact capablitites and seek weaknesses that could be
exploited.
DvdThomas
One of the more famous captured planes was a B-24 referred to as
"Sunshine", I suppose because of the blonde girl painted on its nose. The
Germans used it in Italy for propaganda purposes to try to show that an
American crew defected. They did a fair job of repainting the craft and
dressing Germans up in American flight gear, but not good enough to fool
experts looking at the photo who were able to pick it apart for numerous
small mistakes. The source of the plane was never determined precisely.
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________
"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow
David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)