Where does the 6 million holocaust number come from?
cp
number come from Auschwitz?
Thanks in advance for any help on this, I cannot seem to get a straight answer on this.
cp
--
tim gueguen
"cp" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bbnr7m$1nbm$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu...
> Cliché question, but where does the 6 million Jewish holocaust victims
number come >from?
>From examining the various records seized from the Nazis at the end of WW2
for one, as does the estimate of 5 million non Jews being murdered by the
Nazis.
> Is it true that 4 million victims of that
> number come from Auschwitz?
No, it isn't. However Holocaust Deniers often use things like changing
estimates of the numbers killed at individual camps to claim the whole thing
is suspect.
tim gueguen 101867
--
jer...@autograf.pl
Carey Sublette
http://holocaust-info.dk/statistics/index.html
The estimates of the numbers of victims of the Final Solution are obtained
from demographic studies of the vanished populations, supplemented by
records showing what happened to them: the removals and transportations
(euphemistically termed "relocations") to camps, studies of what happened at
the camps, and records and studies of the other killing activities that were
not confined to camps (e.g. the Einsatzgruppen, these dispersed killings
amounted to some 1.3 million). The total figures arrived at range from 5 to
6 million.
The number killed at Auschwitz is in the order of a million, the best figure
seems to be about 1.1. million.
The "four million" figure you refer to was nothing more than a guess made
shortly after the war. For a nice summary of the origin of this figure, the
tendency for it to reappear in recent publications, and well-founded
estimates see:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/usa-today/usa-today-ltr-19970507.ht
ml
For a list of a few dozen excellent comprehensive historical studies on the
subject that will answer any questions you may have see:
http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/about_holocaust/bibliography/home_bibliography.
html#1
--
jer...@autograf.pl
> number come from Auschwitz?
from the Soviets. The last estimates are about 900 000.
The 6 million has been given by many authors. Is it really so important
if it was 5.1 or 5.9? The majority of European Jews has perished,
either murdered or starved. I believe that computer methods will
help us to describe the holocaust and the Soviet genicides.
Jerzy
--
Carey Sublette
cp
> from the Soviets. The last estimates are about 900 000.
"Most" of the popular literature on the topic that I have read stated that 4 million of the 6 million Jewish victims were murdered
in Auschwitz-Birkenau
> The 6 million has been given by many authors. Is it really so important
> if it was 5.1 or 5.9?
> The majority of European Jews has perished, either murdered or starved.
Majority? American population statistics for world Jewry before and after WWII reported a slight decrease.
> I believe that computer methods will
> help us to describe the holocaust and the Soviet genicides.
"holocaust" and the Soviet genocide? What is the difference? Why is the supposed mass murder of the Jews referred to as a
"holocaust" but a genocide for the others? 7-9 million Ukrainians were killed by Stalin and his mainly Jewish fellow communists,
nobody commemorates those victims or the other tens of millions of the Soviets' victims.
Computer methods? What nonsense. For all other historical events we require hard evidence but the "holocaust" can be extrapolated
with computers.
--
Bob Ingraham
> Organization: http://groups.google.com/
> Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
> Date: 7 Jun 2003 00:12:10 GMT
> Subject: Re: Where does the 6 million holocaust number come from?
>> Cliché question, but where does the 6 million Jewish holocaust victims number
>> come from? Is it true that 4 million victims of that
>
>> number come from Auschwitz?
>
>
> authors. Is it really so important if it was 5.1 or 5.9? The majority of
> computer methods will help us to describe the holocaust and the Soviet
> Jerzy
>From the (limited) reading I have done about Holocaust casualties, their
study is a quagmire at best, and the exact figure will never be known. It's
impossible to know because even the definition of the Holocaust is subject
to dispute.
Are Jews who died prematurely after the war from conditions suffered during
the Holocaust included in the figure? How about Jews who died in German
prisons before the Holocaust per se? Are they included? (They probably
should be, since many of them were imprisoned not because of their "crimes,"
but simply because they were Jews.)
I will go further than Jerzy to state that it doesn't matter whether the
figure was one million (which seems absurdly low) or 12 million, which it
could be. Hitler and the Nazis targeted European Jews, and caused innocent
people to die.
Today the results of the Holocaust are readily seen everywhere. A few years
ago my sister met an elderly woman in Washington, D.C. who had a
concentration camp number tatooed on her forearm. I recently met a Jewish
stamp dealer who remembers as a child being forced to leave his home with
his family in Western Ukraine and walking scores of miles to a camp.
I was talking with a Jewish friend* this past Wednesday night. He recalls
the night on the Italian-Swiss border when German spotlights found his
family. They had been stopped by Swiss border guards, who at first agreed to
let the children come across the border. When the lights flashed on and a
German soldier ordered the family to come to him, the Swiss guards relented
and let the whole family into Switzerland.
This same friend has a letter sent by his grandmother, telling the family
that Germans were "relocating" the Jews in her community. The grandparents
were never heard from again.
The precise number of people who died as a result of the Holocaust is
irrelevant. That something like the Holocaust could happen, in a country
which was considered to be civilized, should be enough to show how
vulnerable all societies are when we don't questions the motives and goals
of politicians.
Bob Ingraham
*By way of interest, this same Jewish friend also recalls his family running
through the streets of Alexandria to avoid Italian bombs at the time of El
Alamein.
--
stanleverlock
> > number come from Auschwitz?
>
> The story about 4 million victims of the Auschwitz camp came
> from the Soviets. The last estimates are about 900 000.
>
> The 6 million has been given by many authors. Is it really so important
> if it was 5.1 or 5.9? The majority of European Jews has perished,
> either murdered or starved. I believe that computer methods will
Gentlemen,
Thank you for explaining and expanding my knowledge.
This is a subject on which i was woefully ignorant.
I am no longer as igronant as i was!
Thank You!
These figures, then are all Estimates of based on close study of the
remaining facts that can be nailed down.
I suppose the Holocaust - Deniers will have a Field Day!
They may even build a MayPole at Auschwitz and Dance around it
celebrating the Fact that it was only 900,000 to 1.1 million Jews
Killed there.
Let us all resolve to Remember what was done at Auschwitz!
Remember to Deny the Deniers-The Naysayers and the those who would
want to forget or deny. Remember!
Yours truly,
Stanleverlock
--
Don Phillipson
news:bbrakq$3464$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu...
> The story about 4 million victims of the Auschwitz camp came
> from the Soviets. The last estimates are about 900 000.
Sundry authors may have been misled by testimony
by Col. Hoess (Auschwitz's first commandant) at the
Nuremberg International Tribunal (1946) when
prosecution and defence lawyers spent significant
time trying to calculate the maximum "throughput"
of the Auschwitz death system during Hoess's time there (two
years?) The general consensus seemed to be
2.5 million: but this was the system's theoretical
maximum.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
dphillipson[at]trytel.com
--
Angus McLellan
<Edited to avoid excessive quoting, lack of attribution corrected>
><jer...@autograf.pl wrote:
>"Most" of the popular literature on the topic that I have read stated that
>4 million of the 6 million Jewish victims were murdered in Auschwitz-Birkenau
And why should we care what "popular literature" says ? If I look hard
enough I can find "popular literature" on WWII which includes almost
any error of fact you care to mention.
>> The majority of European Jews has perished, either murdered or starved.
>Majority? American population statistics for world Jewry before and after
>WWII reported a slight decrease.
I think I'd like a cite for this from a reliable source. Standard
"revisionist" factoid IIRC.
>"holocaust" and the Soviet genocide? What is the difference? Why
>is the supposed mass murder of the Jews referred to as a "holocaust"
>but a genocide for the others? 7-9 million Ukrainians were killed by
>Stalin and his mainly Jewish fellow communists, nobody commemorates
>those victims or the other tens of millions of the Soviets' victims.
How do we know that "7-9 million Ukrainians were killed" ? Estimated I
think you'll find. No-one has, or ever will, come up with an exact
count of the victims. Thus computers (or pencil and paper) provide us
with an answer. X million people in the Ukrainian SSR in year A, Y
million in Year B, voila we're missing a large number of people who
didn't migrate. The obvious conclusion is that the missing people were
killed and it's not hard to surmise who did the killing.
Estimates of Jewish deaths in the Final Solution are rather easier. We
have records for the Einsatzgruppen including contemporary British
decrypts, we have numbers transported for some countries. There's
Eichmann's testimony, Hoess's testimony and so on. Add it all up and
you come to 5-6 million Jews killed. Plus a considerable fraction of
the Sinti and Roma population of German-controlled Europe, large
numbers of prisoners of war and many others. Killing Jews was only
phase 2 of the Nazi campaign to rid the world of their enemies. (Phase
one was the T-4 programme, suspended but not cancelled.)
I'd like a cite for Stalin's fellow communists being "mainly" (i.e.
more than half) Jewish. From a real historian please.
And why is it that no-one ever complains about the Roma having a
special name for the massacres they suffered at German hands during
WWII ?
>Computer methods? What nonsense. For all other historical events we require hard evidence
>but the "holocaust" can be extrapolated with computers.
We require computers (or pencil and paper) for all sorts of history.
Calculating the numbers killed in the dekulakisation campaigns and the
Great Terror to take two obvious examples. A computer is useful for
any sort of economic or population history at all. Recently computers
and archaelogical methods have been used to examine the site of the
extermination camp at Belzec. There is no reason at all why computers
should not be used in historical studies. As for "hard evidence",
decrypts of Einsatzgruppen signals, mass graves, the site at Belzec,
the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp and the rest are all "hard
evidence".
Having got that out of the way, the next step - IIRC, and it's a while
since I read a.r - is to complain about "rules of evidence" as if
historical or archaeological research were governed by rules of court
procedure.
Angus
--
Carey Sublette
...
> "Most" of the popular literature on the topic that I have read stated that
4 million of the 6 million Jewish victims were murdered
> in Auschwitz-Birkenau
You have avoided reading serious histories then.
I rarely encounter this figure at all in any materials I read -- other than
historical revisionist literature. Possibly this is where you formed your
impression that it is common in even popular literature?
...
> "holocaust" and the Soviet genocide? What is the difference? Why is the
supposed mass murder of the Jews referred to as a
> "holocaust" but a genocide for the others? 7-9 million Ukrainians were
killed by Stalin and his mainly Jewish fellow communists,
> nobody commemorates those victims or the other tens of millions of the
Soviets' victims.
What a surprise.
The code words and fan dance of the holocaust denial, 'historical
revisionism', and lets face - it plain anti-Jewish prejudice surface:
"supposed mass murder of the Jews ", "Stalin and his mainly Jewish fellow
communists".
The original query is thus revealed to be but a stalking horse.
Th premise that "nobody commemorates those victims or the other tens of
millions of the Soviets' victims" is rank poppycock. A great deal of ink is
spilled discussing this - ready Conquest's "Harvest of Sorrow" (1987) for
starters).
> Computer methods? What nonsense. For all other historical events we
require hard evidence but the "holocaust" can be extrapolated
> with computers.
All demographic-based research requires number crunching and is improved
with more powerful crunchers and better statistical analyses. The
demographic catastrophes under the Soviet regime are studied the same way.
--
Risto Tammela
> "holocaust" and the Soviet genocide? What is the difference? Why is the supposed mass murder of the Jews referred to as a
> "holocaust" but a genocide for the others? 7-9 million Ukrainians were killed by Stalin and his mainly Jewish fellow communists,
> nobody commemorates those victims or the other tens of millions of the Soviets' victims.
> Computer methods? What nonsense. For all other historical events we require hard evidence but the "holocaust" can be extrapolated
> with computers.
Leaving aside your antisemitic BS, you have a serious contradiction in
your own arguments. Do you really think that victims of soviet genocides
were accounted one by one? No. The estimates of the victims were/are
constructed using statistical (demographic) methods. So if Jewish victims
are estimated
using stastical inference it's only propaganda but if it is applied
to crimes of communists the same method becomes a hard fact?
BTW thanks to people like you Kolmogorov switched from history to
stochastics :)
--
Lech K. Lesiak
> "holocaust" but a genocide for the others? 7-9 million Ukrainians were
killed by Stalin and his mainly Jewish fellow communists,
'Mainly Jewish fellow communists'? This implies that a majority of Soviet
communists were Jews. I strongly doubt you can back this up.
I don't know the numbers for the USSR, but in Poland roughtly 30% of CP
membership was Jewish. Certainly a higher percentage than in the general
population, but hardly a majority.
Cheers,
Lech
--
Lech K. Lesiak
number come from?
It comes from subtracting the pre-war Jewish population of Europe from the
post-war population, and adjusting for emigration.
Is it true that 4 million victims of that
> number come from Auschwitz?
That was a figure that was used for a good many years, but more recent
estimates put it closer to 1.4 million Jewish victims.
Cheers,
Lech
--
Geoffrey Sinclair
>"Most" of the popular literature on the topic that I have read
>stated that 4 million of the 6 million Jewish victims were murdered
>in Auschwitz-Birkenau
It would be good to let us know what these incorrect
sources are, since most of the books that claim this
figure tend to be part of the literature that deny the
extermination program existed.
>>Majority? American population statistics for world Jewry before and after
>WWII reported a slight decrease.
Ah we are up to the standard misrepresentations on
statistics on populations.
>"holocaust" and the Soviet genocide? What is the difference?
>Why is the supposed mass murder of the Jews referred to as a
>"holocaust" but a genocide for the others?
There is no supposed about it, the Nazis carried out a
deliberate extermination campaign of people they did
not like, Jews, Poles, Communists, and Roma I believe
were the top four.
The community that was attacked has at least the right
to name the attack, the Roma have.
>7-9 million Ukrainians were killed by Stalin and his mainly
>Jewish fellow communists, nobody commemorates those
>victims or the other tens of millions of the Soviets' victims.
The Soviet communist party was not majority Jewish. The
main victims of Stalin were the Ukrainians who died of
starvation. The Ukrainians do commemorate the event.
>Computer methods? What nonsense. For all other historical
> events we require hard evidence but the "holocaust" can be
>extrapolated with computers.
Ah yes, selective acceptance of evidence. The methods
used to calculate the deaths due to Stalin are accepted
for that figure but not good enough for the Nazi efforts.
This is despite better demographic data in Europe.
This is despite the many captured documents and
intercepted messages detailing the killings.
The uncertainty in the figures comes from,
firstly how do you count those killed in "anti partisan"
operations, where 1 weapon was found for maybe 100
"partisans" killed?
secondly how about those how died from deliberate
neglect, food or medical attention withheld?
thirdly how about the problems of lost or incomplete
documentation? The Nazis were meticulous but even
they fell away towards the end and documents were
lost or destroyed as well.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
--
jer...@autograf.pl
> The uncertainty in the figures comes from,
>
> firstly how do you count those killed in "anti partisan"
> operations, where 1 weapon was found for maybe 100
> "partisans" killed?
I would expect that the 6 000 000 includes all European Jews who died
during WWII, also certainly any group you mention, and unborn
people (i.e. the difference between the expected number of newborn
children 1939-1945 and the real one). This way the numbers of victims
in Poland and numbers of Soviet victims are estimated by many authors.
Jerzy
--
jer...@autograf.pl
>7-9 million Ukrainians were killed by Stalin
> and his mainly Jewish fellow communists,
During WWII the only high Jewish Communist was Kaganovitsh.
The Communists from Georgia and other Caucasian republics
were very influential - Stalin, Beria, Tsanava, Mikoyan and many others.
Jerzy
--
Jeff nor Lisa
[responding to "cp" <nos...@nospam.com> ]
> The code words and fan dance of the holocaust denial, 'historical
> revisionism', and lets face - it plain anti-Jewish prejudice surface:
> "supposed mass murder of the Jews ", "Stalin and his mainly Jewish fellow
> communists".
Good points Mr. Sublette. Yes, the word "supposed" makes it clear
that "CP" is writing from a dark place.
Upon the discovery of the death camps, US officials ordered
as many soldiers and local people to march through the camps
and see with their own eyes had incredibly horrible they were.
The camps were documented on film.
The officials realized that things were so bad that nobody
would believe unless there were a lot of witnesses (IIRC,
Eisenhower said this).
What troubles me is that the original witnesses are now aging
and passing on and the ignorant comments that deny, minimize,
or distort what happened are growing.