Tibetan corpses in Berlin 1945
A.A. Koppers
r...@mbox301.swipnet.se heeft geschreven in bericht
<6moq27$m...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
>I have heard that in their taking of berlin in 1945 the russians
>stumbled on Tibetan corpses (in german uniforms/naked, both varieties).
>These are told to have been seen by the following:
> - Maurice Bessy
> -Pauwels
> -Bergier
>Does any one know more about the truth in these tales, or sources of
>interest.
>Regards
>Ragnar Ingibergsson
Talked to a friend who read about Tibetan men being enlisted in the Soviet
Army and found themselves in German captivity. Later these men were POW with
the Western Allies. Perhaps someone on the newsgroup gets an extra idea or
two when reading this. So, perhaps the Indian suggestion from me is not such
a wise lead to follow.
Cheers,
Andre Koppers
historian
Bob
r...@mbox301.swipnet.se wrote in article <6moq27$m...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
> I have heard that in their taking of berlin in 1945 the russians
> stumbled on Tibetan corpses (in german uniforms/naked, both varieties).
> These are told to have been seen by the following:
> - Maurice Bessy
> -Pauwels
> -Bergier
> Does any one know more about the truth in these tales, or sources of
> interest.
I read somewhere of two Tibetans being captured by the Allies in Normandy.
It took some time to establish their identity because no-one could identify
their language, let alone speak it.
They were from the Asian fringe of the Soviet Union near China, had been
drafted into the Soviet army, captured by the Germans, then drafted into
service and sent to defend Normandy.
Tom &/or Arlene Adkins
Bob wrote:
> I read somewhere of two Tibetans being captured by the Allies in Normandy.
> It took some time to establish their identity because no-one could identify
> their language, let alone speak it.
> They were from the Asian fringe of the Soviet Union near China, had been
> drafted into the Soviet army, captured by the Germans, then drafted into
> service and sent to defend Normandy.
IIRC, I read this also. It was, I believe, in "Victims of Yalta" by
tolstoy. The book tells the tale of the Soviets in German uniform who
were forcibly repatriated after the war (well, some returned
"voluntarily"
during the war).
Anyway, these two were supposedly Tibetan shepherds who wandered across
the
border and were seized and put in the army! Of course, they didn't know
or care about any of it, and were captured by the Germans. Again, they
didn't know or care about any of it, and were captured by the Allies.
I don't recall if, or how, they got home. Perhaps a good movie on the
lines
of "7 Years in Tibet"?
Tom
--
"Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography." --Paul
Rodriguez
Daniele Guastavino.
It is possible that they were soldiers from the USSR's Republic near Cina
or India
--
Daniele Guastavino
Dags...@varazze.net
COMMANDE
IIRC, hitler sent many advisers/spies to Tibet to keep an eye on India.
Didn't India declared war on the Riech in '39 before the rest of the
Commonwealth?
Also, pushing the religious side wasn't hitler interested in some
Buddaistic(sp) cult that used the swastika.
It's slighlty off topic but didn't hitler believe that there was only 74
"true me" in each generation???
Donald Phillipson
COMMANDE (do...@mail.com) writes:
> IIRC, hitler sent many advisers/spies to Tibet to keep an eye on
> India.
Heinrich Harrer, the German PoW (and Nazi party member) who escaped in
wartime from India to Tibet, encountered no Nazi "advisers" in his
seven years in Tibet. If there were any, Harrer would have probably
known (because of his position at the Dalai Lama's court) and would
have published it later in his memoirs.
> Didn't India declared war on the Reich in '39 before the rest of the
> Commonwealth?
No. London declared war on behalf of India (which then had no
representative government.) This was one of the things Indian
nationalists complained about.
> Also, pushing the religious side wasn't hitler interested in some
> Buddaistic(sp) cult that used the swastika.
Apparently not. The swastika is an ancient Aryan i.e. Indian motif.
That is why British author Rudyard Kipling adopted it approx. 1900,
and why German fans of the occult adopted it in 1919. Tibetan
iconography is rather different. No independent Buddhist "cult" seems
to have specially adopted the Indian swastika.
> It's slighlty off topic but didn't hitler believe that there was only 74
> "true men" in each generation???
This looks like the idea that the continuation of the world depends on
there being enough "just men" alive at any moment, cf. Andre
Schwarz-Bart's 1960 novel, The Last of the Just, about Auschwitz.
The first known source of this myth is the Biblical account of the
destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. When God announced his intention
to destroy these wicked places Abraham challenged God whether it was
really fair to destroy the just together with the unjust. God
promised not to destroy them if 50 just men could be found, and
Abraham haggled him down to 10, enough to save the cities. They were
destroyed anyway, which suggests to the Genesis reader that there were
not even 10 just men in Sodom and Gomorrah.
This is a famous item in Jewish literature, thus well-known among
Christians who read the Old Testament, but it seems unlikely such an
antisemite as Hitler would have adopted it.
--
| Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs, |
| Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734 |
Nate Gordon
>> Didn't India declared war on the Reich in '39 before the rest of the
>> Commonwealth?
>
>No. London declared war on behalf of India (which then had no
>representative government.) This was one of the things Indian
>nationalists complained about.
>
I believe that the Viceroy of India did in fact declare war on
Germany. This infuriated Churchill and others, because it implied that
India had a status equal to the Dominions (South Africa, Australia,
New Zealand, and Canada, all of which declared war independently of
Great Britain), and Churchill was a staunch opponent of the movement
to grant Dominion status to India.
Nate Gordon
cd00...@mindspring.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friends, like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."
Kennedy How
Bob wrote:
> I read somewhere of two Tibetans being captured by the Allies in Normandy.
> It took some time to establish their identity because no-one could identify
> their language, let alone speak it.
> They were from the Asian fringe of the Soviet Union near China, had been
> drafted into the Soviet army, captured by the Germans, then drafted into
> service and sent to defend Normandy.
Haven't heard that, but I did read about the Koreans that were captured
in Normandy. IIRC, they were captured by the Soviets from Japan, who
captured them from the Japanese. The Germans captured them, and stuck
them in Normandy, whereupon the Allies captured them. It does go on to
say that upon repatriation to Korea, if they were from the North, they
woulda been drafted into the NK army to fight against the south.
This was all in Ambrose's book on D-Day.
Kennedy
--
soc.culture.japan.moderated Moderator on duty
scj...@eyrie.org
COMMANDE
Donald Phillipson wrote:
>
> COMMANDE (do...@mail.com) writes:
>
> > IIRC, hitler sent many advisers/spies to Tibet to keep an eye on
> > India.
>
> Heinrich Harrer, the German PoW (and Nazi party member) who escaped in
> wartime from India to Tibet, encountered no Nazi "advisers" in his
> seven years in Tibet. If there were any, Harrer would have probably
> known (because of his position at the Dalai Lama's court) and would
> have published it later in his memoirs.
>
Hmm, This is exactly the adviser/spy I make reference too! Heinrich
Harrer is hardly a individual who's word can be trusted! first he
claimed not to be a nazi at all, then he claimed to have joined the
nazi's to further his mountainerring carrer. This latest lie has now
been untangled. According to the German magazine _Stern_ he joined the
nazi party illegaly in 1933 in his home of Austria. _Men's Journal_ ran
an article on this "150% nazi" (their words). He quickly rose to a
member of the SS. His word can hardly be trusted.
Hillbrath
Andy O'Neill wrote:
> As I mentioned in the thread about whether Hitler
> was a christian, the nazi leaders ahd some very strange beliefs.
> These beggar belief, however, one of these was roughly
> that the Aryan race stemmed from some sort of
> tibetan supermen.
There were certainly some strange beliefs, and not just on the part of the Nazi
leaders. Hard to say which of these "beggar belief" but, a couple that come to
mind was that in the 1800s, there was a fairly widespread idea that somehow,
the Germans were the modern version of the Greeks and the British, somehow,
corresponded to the Jews. And, it was not just the Germans that accepted this,
some of the British did also.
Some German fans of the Germany=Greece idea went to Greece, and were quite
appaled by the real Greeks, who they though had no relationship whatever to
their idealized version of the facts (actually, there is a very strong cultural
continuity in Greece over the past several thousand years, at least.)
A somewhat related "theory," (if it can be called that) was the work of one
particular German "historian" (again), who thought that the much discussed
Aryan "homeland" was in S.-Holstein, (that is a close as I can manage the
spelling) the part of Germany near Denmark. In his view, the Greeks were like
the Germans, because they had migrated to Greece from Germany, not the other
way around.
"tibetan supermen" seem a mild version, to me.
Henry Hillbrath
Donald Phillipson
> Donald Phillipson wrote:
>> COMMANDE (do...@mail.com) writes:
>> > IIRC, hitler sent many advisers/spies to Tibet to keep an eye on
>> > India.
>> Heinrich Harrer, the German PoW (and Nazi party member) who escaped in
>> wartime from India to Tibet, encountered no Nazi "advisers" in his
>> seven years in Tibet. If there were any, Harrer would have probably
>> known (because of his position at the Dalai Lama's court) and would
>> have published it later in his memoirs.
> Hmm, This is exactly the adviser/spy I make reference too! Heinrich
> Harrer is hardly a individual who's word can be trusted! first he
This won't work. Harrer was a PoW. If deployed as a spy,
how could Hitler be adequately sure Harrer would be captured uninjured
(and not killed in action, or not captured at all) and then
caged in India, rather than Rhodesia or Canada?
Phocks
Othmer <angieanne...@mci2000.com> wrote in article
<6nqt34$o...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
>
> Among the "Indians" here in the southwest United States the swastika was
one
> of there revered symbols. As I remember during the war they had an
article
> in the paper about the swastika of our southwest Indians not having any
> connection to the Nazi swastika. If Im not mistaken I think the tribe was
> the Navajo?
>
>
Even better, until 1940-41, the 45th Infantry Division (NM and AZ National
Guard) had the Swastika (backwards, IIRC) on their shoulder patch! It was
replaced before Pearl Harbor by the Thunderbird.
Damien Fox
Phillip McGregor
On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 19:27:21 GMT, "Othmer" <angieanne...@mci2000.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
>Donald Phillipson wrote in message <6nds54$a...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
>
>>snip<
>
>>Apparently not. The swastika is an ancient Aryan i.e. Indian motif.
>>That is why British author Rudyard Kipling adopted it approx. 1900,
>>and why German fans of the occult adopted it in 1919. Tibetan
>>iconography is rather different. No independent Buddhist "cult" seems
>>to have specially adopted the Indian swastika.
>
>Among the "Indians" here in the southwest United States the swastika was one
>of there revered symbols. As I remember during the war they had an article
>in the paper about the swastika of our southwest Indians not having any
>connection to the Nazi swastika. If Im not mistaken I think the tribe was
>the Navajo?
Yes. And, evidently, it was a Divisional symbol for one of the US Army
or NG Divisions pre-war. It was, of course, quickly changed after
Pearl Harbour. I also seem to remember reading that the Indian artists
lined up to eschew the use of the broken sunwheel in their art
immediately after Pearl as well.
Phil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | asp...@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
James Cummings
I saw a picture of Jackie Kennedy when she was a tennager wearing
an Indian deerskin dress with swastikas around the hem. One difference
was the Germans put theirs at an angle so it would appear to be rolling
forward with momentum rather than resting on one arm. I read
Hitler saw this emblem while recruperating from a gas attack in the hospital
in WWI and adopted it.
On 7 Jul 1998, Phocks wrote:
> Date: 7 JUL 1998 14:10:11 -0400
> Othmer <angieanne...@mci2000.com> wrote in article
> <6nqt34$o...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
> > Among the "Indians" here in the southwest United States the swastika was
> > one of there revered symbols. As I remember during the war they had an
> > article in the paper about the swastika of our southwest Indians not
> > having any connection to the Nazi swastika. If Im not mistaken I think
> > the tribe was the Navajo?
E.F.Schelby
>Andy O'Neill wrote:
>
>> the nazi leaders ahd some very strange beliefs.
>> These beggar belief, however, one of these was roughly
>> that the Aryan race stemmed from some sort of
>> tibetan supermen.
>
>There were certainly some strange beliefs, and not just on the part of the Nazi
>leaders.
[entertaining details cut]
>"tibetan supermen" seem a mild version, to me.
How about this version, by a gentleman named Baybrook?
In 1943 he published a book claiming the sui generis aggressive
"Prussian spirit" had been bred into the Germans by Asian
supermen.
Mr. Baybrook traced the Germans back to the warrior Huns of
northern China, circa 3000 B.C. (I don't think anyone can
top that for weirdness). He urged the Allies and future
occupiers of Germany "to impose the strictest possible controls
on 'the Hun-German ruling caste," which, he said, "is
prenaturally clever," able to "stultify any Allied repressive
plans, if these plans are announced in detail before hand."
Cheers,
ES
TMOliver
A.A. Koppers wrote:
>
> r...@mbox301.swipnet.se heeft geschreven in bericht
>...
> >I have heard that in their taking of berlin in 1945 the russians
> >stumbled on Tibetan corpses (in german uniforms/naked, both varieties).
> >These are told to have been seen by the following:
> > - Maurice Bessy
> > -Pauwels
> > -Bergier
> >Does any one know more about the truth in these tales, or sources of
> >interest.
> >Regards
> >Ragnar Ingibergsson
>
While always interested in rumors/claims/evidence of this sort, must ask
the obvious question of a forensic anthroplogist....
What led them to believe that the bodies were "Tibetan"?
Other than regular applications of yak butter as a hair grooming agent,
a habit shared with some neighbors, or teeth ground down from
barley-crunching, I'm not sure that "Tibetans", especially naked or in
German uniforms are readily identifiable as such.
Often, there's little mystery to the presence of "furriners" in a
variety of places about the world. It takes no leap of faith to give
Paris a pre-1940 Korean population, and those who have ever spent time
in places such as Marseilles will recall an ecumenical ethnic spread.
From merchant seafaring to domestic service, all sorts and conditions of
men and women could be encountered in most of the world's urban centers
througout history. The numbers grew as transportation and
communications improved.
--
TMOliver AKA El Pelon Sinverguenza
"I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
Not screaming in terror like his passengers..."
Bo Helldén
who for some odd reason volunteered for the Waffen SS! Anyway I find it
deeply uninteresting if they were Tibetans or not!