I'm sorry but after reading this material with great interest I can see no
mention of Harry Hopkins at all, let alone as a source. If I missed it, can
you show me where he is mentioned.
There have been several discussions about this man on this newsgroup in the
past, including this particular allegation, and each time it has been
thoroughly debunked. I see no new evidence here. Indeed, I see little that
is really new, except some fascinating details on counter-espionage
activities.
It has long been known that Stalin knew about the Manhattan Project and
other secrets before they were announced. That was revealed in post-war
treason trials. We didn't need the NSA to tell us that.
--
> There have been several discussions about this man on this newsgroup
> in the past, including this particular allegation, and each time it
> has been thoroughly debunked.
Not the way I see it. To believe that HH was not a spy, one has
to overlook the USSR files which were open in the warly 1990s.
One has to believe that HH's contact in NY was just some ordinary
Russian who, by some stroke of luck, had direct access to Stalin.
One has to believe that Alger Hiss was not a USSR spy. HH left
government very quickly after FDR's death. A smart move. HH
claimed ill health, but managed not to die so quickly. By the
time McCarthy would have gotten around to him, he had died, so
was of no futher interest.
Harm? FDR was advised by HH and Hiss at Yalta.
I have not seen any evidence that HH was involved in the transfer
of atomic secrets. The USSR had other, better, sources, including
Oppenheimer's wife, if not Oppenheimer himself.
GFH
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
--
I posted basically off of information given in a speech rerun on 11/19/00
on CSPAN2 (referenced below) by Herbert Romerstein , U.S. Information
Agency. This was the second or third time I had heard Hopkins mentioned in
this regard in this speech. I believe it was delivered in front of an
audience of foreign affairs and intelligence types, and didn't seem to
encounter much refutation. I ran a couple searches on the web re. Hopkins
and didn't get any verification of his being a Soviet source re. books or
articles.
So basically, in this post, I'm doing a some provacative "fishing" to see if
anybody has evidence or at least some verification re. this topic. It seems
highly historically significant, if true.
CSPAN2 11/19/00
08:02 pm
0:53
(est.) Speech
The Venona Secrets
Institute of World Politics
Herbert Romerstein , U.S. Information Agency
RA
--
There is no conclusive evidence that Harry Hopkins was a Soviet spy.
The Verona documents contain references to an individual named "19",
which is most likely Hopkins, but just because a Soviet agent names
him with a code number in a message is no proof that he was
in Soviet service. In fact he was sent by the President to talk to
the Soviets, both to Moscow and with the Soviet Purchasing Commission
in Washington. That was part of his job for the President of the
United States. His main task during the war was to act as a sort of
trouble shooter between the Big Three,which he sarcastically referred to
as "the primadonnas". So he had conversations, and gave Stalin
information that FDR wanted "Uncle Joe" to have. That is not spying.
He probably had conversations with Soviet officials that were
intelligence agents, and given the circumstances in the Soviet Union and
that their agents had to produce "results", to be in good stead with
Stalin and perhaps avoid being shot, it is likely that some of their
agents exaggerated their interactions with Hopkins, and claimed to have
him on the payrole. Decrypts of Soviet intelligence messages, and
documents from the GRU and the NKVD should be taken with a large pile of
salt. One agent, Iskhak Akhmerov, was just boasting about Hopkins, to
beef up his own standing in Moscow. The Soviet secret police during
Stalin was a pathetic gallery of liars, psychopaths, criminals and
opportunists trying to stay alive, and without any supporting evidence
one should treat their reports and other offerings accordingly. Harry
Hopkins, on the basis of sound evidence, was a truly patriotic American
who would never betray the US, and certainly not the President. His role
was vital for the war effort and the Grand Alliance, and he should be
remembered for that rather than have his reputation ruined by Soviet
liars, and for a lack of a better word, scum on Stalin's payrole,
cooking up "intelligence reports" to obtain favours from the dictator.
Thor Eysteinsson
I looked in some of the usual places, and it does not appear
that there is any new info(but I'd like to hear if there is).
To the best of my knowledge, there is no "proof" or even
"really strong evidence" in teh released Venona messages that indicate
that Harry Hopkins was a spy. The Venona messages do mention a
"source 19", and despite much speculation the vast majority of the
historical community feels that there is not enough evidence to
positively identify this "source 19". Various people have forwarded
various theories as to whom it might be, Czech leader Benes being
another possible conadidate.
The Hopkins spy claim was made a while back, IIRC in "Inside
the KGB" by Gordievsky. However, IIRC in that book, the sources were
reporting rumors and not any kind of authorative or documentary
evidence. Also, as I posted, earlier, there have been people claiming
Hopkins was a spy for a loong time.
Even *IF* "source 19" stood for Hopkins, however, that doesn't
mean he was a spy. He may have, as I forwarded earlier, been playing
at diplomacy. I believe a relevant article would be "Venona's Source
19..." by Mark Eduard, Intelligence and National Security, 13 no 2
(summer 1998) 1-31. In paricular, note that many 'sources' (from spies
to newspapers) had codenames - for example FDR himself is called
"Captain". The John Birch society claims FDR was a traitor, but I don't
think there is much support for that idea in the historical community.
I wonder if the C-SPAN show you saw was a speech by Reed Irvine.
I watched him on C-SPAN attempting to glorify MCCarthy and villify FDR,
using both factual and some very disingenuous (to say the least)
methods. He is one of the warhorses still battling violently to right
the wrongs he thought he saw in the 50s (the "left" has its counterparts)
and is not generally regarded as a thoughtful commentator by most
historians.
C-SPAN is great, but sometimes people think that it is all
"true" and forget that it is a forum open to all sorts of people with
all sorts of diverse (and sometime ridiculous) views. The network, to
its credit, does not do much "weeding out" so you have to take what
you watch with a grain of salt.
I would of course be very interested in hearing if there has
been some new piece of information that has come out that I haven't
seen.
regards,
-----------------------------------------------------------
sjfo...@bayou.uh.edu wizard 87-01
And what files would those be?
The case against Harry Hopkins rests largely on two pieces of
evidence: the claims of KGB defector Oleg Gordievsky and the Venona
decrypts.
Gordievsky claimed he attended a lecture in which Iskhak Akhmerov
claimed that Harry Hopkins was a spy. Other KGB officials have also
made the claim, but to date no documentation from KGB archives has
surfaced that supports these claims.
If anyone had access to KGB files, Vasili Mitrokhin did, and in his
book written with Christopher Andrew, they deny that Hopkins was a KGB
spy.
As for the Venona decrypts, they are proof only if you prove that the
unidentified 'Agent 19' was Hopkins.
As best as I can tell, 'Agent 19' is mentioned only in one Venona
decrypt, a message sent May 29, 1943:
http://www.nsa.gov/docs/venona/docs/May43/29_May_1943_m4_p1.gif
http://www.nsa.gov/docs/venona/docs/May43/29_May_1943_m4_p2.gif
Someone made a handwritten note on the second page of the decrypt
speculating that Hopkins was a spy. But the notation is not next to
the identification of '19' but the identification of 'DEPUTY', later
conclusively shown to Henry Wallace.
Other candidates for '19' are possible. Mitrokhin and Andrew identify
'19' as Lawrence Duggan, the State Department official turned spy.
Nigel West says that '19' was Eduard Benes. Benes was visiting the US
in May 1943 and could have been privy to the discussions between
Churchill and Roosevelt described in the May 29, 1943 message.
And what exactly was the deep secret that Agent 19 revealed to Stalin?
That Roosevelt was pressing Churchill for a definite commitment to
OVERLORD as the 'second front' demanded by Stalin.
The report of May 29, 1943 should be viewed against the larger picture
of relations between the US, Britain and the USSR. Friction between
all was at its highest point in the war. Britain and the US were
engaged in a protracted squabble over the strategic direction of the
war. The USSR was pushing both the US and Britain for greater
Lend-Lease aid and demanding a second front against Germany.
In addition, the USSR was initiating peace feelers to Germany through
Sweden that spring. Whether Stalin's peace initiatives were a ploy to
force Britain and the US to yield to his demands or were serious
attempts to conclude a seperate peace aren't known without access to
Soviet archives. In any event, there was serious concern, almost
panic, in both London and Washington that the USSR would abandon the
war against Germany.
It is not implausible Roosevelt would send a message outside of
diplomatic channels confirming the US's resolve to open a second front
in Europe. Andrew and Mitrokhin seem inclined to this theory:
There is plausible but controversial evidence that, in addition to
passing confidences to the Soviet ambassador, [Harry] Hopkins
sometimes used [Ishkak Abdulovich] Akhmerov as a back channel to
Moscow, much as the Kennedys later used the GRU officer Georgi
Bolashakov. Hopkin's confidential information so impressed the
Centre that, years later, some KGB officers boasted that he had been
a Soviet agent. These boasts were far from the truth. Hopkins was an
American patriot with little sympathy for the Soviet system. But he
was deeply impressed by the Soviet war effort and convinced that,
"Since Russia is the decisive factor in the was she must be given
every assistance every effort must be made to obtain her
friendship."
Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin, "The Sword and the Shield:
the Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB"
: One has to believe that HH's contact in NY was just some ordinary
: Russian who, by some stroke of luck, had direct access to Stalin.
Non sequitor. If Harry Hopkins really was a spy, then Hopkins would
have known Akhmerov was not just an ordinary Russian. On the other
hand, if Harry Hopkins was not a spy, then he wouldn't have entrusted
a sensitive message to a random Russian emigre. In any event, Hopkins
did know exactly who Akhmerov was and what he did since Hopkins was
privy to FBI investigations of Soviet espionage activities that named
Akhmerov as a Soviet illegal.
: One has to believe that Alger Hiss was not a USSR spy.
This is a red herring, if you'll excuse the pun. What does the guilt
of Alger Hiss do to prove Harry Hopkins was a spy?
: HH left
: government very quickly after FDR's death. A smart move. HH
: claimed ill health, but managed not to die so quickly.
Taking a page from Joe McCarthy I see. Hopkins retired from government
on July 2, 1945 (Roosevelt died April 12). Hopkins died of stomach
cancer on January 29, 1946, having survived an earlier episode of it
in 1938. Six months later not quick enough for you? That Hopkins
suffered ill health through much of 1943 and 1944 is very much part of
the historical record.
: Harm? FDR was advised by HH and Hiss at Yalta.
You can, of course, show what specific negotiating positions at Yalta
were crafted by Harry Hopkins and how they were dictated by Stalin,
can't you?
Andrew Warinner
wari...@xnet.com
http://home.xnet.com/~warinner
Urban Legend Zeitgeist: http://www.urbanlegends.com/ulz/
I wonder if the C-SPAN show you saw was a speech by Reed Irvine.
| I watched him on C-SPAN attempting to glorify MCCarthy and villify FDR,
The talk was given by Herbert Romerstein , U.S. Information Agency; I've
listend to it a few times, but never really intently. (Cited below).
Here's a few extracts from an article regarding some of this:
[Human Events, 3/22/96, Vol. 52 Issue 11, p4, 3/4p, 2bw]
Romerstein also points out that the Venona documents show that Akhmerov
directed the activities of Harry Hopkins, a close, personal friend of FDR,
and insisted Hopkins was an even more important agent than Hiss. And at
least one Venona document, says Romerstein, "shows Hopkins is reporting to
Akhmerov on secret conversations between Roosevelt and Churchill during the
war."
Romerstein says that the Venona material also reveals that top Treasury aide
Harry Dexter White "was a major agent of influence and a collector of
sensitive intelligence information," while Lauchlin Currie, an official aide
to Roosevelt, "was giving very significant military and other intelligence
information to the Soviets. Currie would gather the information at the White
House, turn it over to Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, who would transfer it to
the Soviets."
HUMAN EVENTS alSO notes that the documents vindicate Romerstein on his
claim--first made in the June 6, 1992, issue of this publication--that
widely heralded left-wing journalist I.F. Stone, who died in 1989, was, in
fact, a KGB agent. In his article, Romerstein charged that Stone was
"beholden to the KGB, which financed his newsletter, I.F. Stone's Weekly,
during many of the 19 years that he published it. The newsletter began in
1953 when the KGB was already subsidizing Stone."
End article extracts
I don't know anything about the players here, whether they're reliable or
always finding conspiracies and spies, but it certainly sounds historically
interesting on the face of it.
The talk was rerun on: CSPAN2 11/19/00, 08:02 pm 0:53 (est.)
Speech The Venona Secrets Institute of World Politics,
> One has to believe that HH's contact in NY was just some ordinary
> Russian who, by some stroke of luck, had direct access to Stalin.
This seems unnecessary, because FDR sent Hopkins directly to
Stalin on important occasions (e.g. 1941 between Barbarossa
and Pearl Harbor and 1945 after Yalta and before Potsdam.)
> One has to believe that Alger Hiss was not a USSR spy. HH left
> government very quickly after FDR's death. A smart move. HH
> claimed ill health, but managed not to die so quickly. By the
Hopkins died in 1946 aged 56 (of lung diseases, apparently
both TB and cancer, from which he had visibly suffered for
at least a couple of years, although a chain smoker.)
The post also purports to be unaware of the US political
custom that all top-level presidential appointees
resign when "their" president dies or leaves office.
(Truman appears to have kept more of his predecessor's
appointees in office than most other US presidents.)
--
| Donald Phillipson, dphil...@trytel.com |
| Carlsbad Springs, Ottawa, Canada |
> : One has to believe that HH's contact in NY was just some ordinary
> : Russian who, by some stroke of luck, had direct access to Stalin.
>
> Non sequitor. If Harry Hopkins really was a spy, then Hopkins would
> have known Akhmerov was not just an ordinary Russian.
Akhmerov was not just an ordinary Russian, just as HH was not an
ordinary American. One may well argue who was using whom. But
the "using" seems clear. It may be that both thought they were
using the other, not being used themselves.
>On the other hand, if Harry Hopkins was not a spy, then he wouldn't
>have entrusted a sensitive message to a random Russian emigre.
So, you agree that HH knew full well who Akhmerov was and what he
was doing.
>In any event, Hopkins did know exactly who Akhmerov was and what he
>did since Hopkins was privy to FBI investigations of Soviet espionage
>activities that named Akhmerov as a Soviet illegal.
And HH served as a 'protector' for Akhmerov? How active was the FBI
against USSR agents during the FDR administration? Did FDR care if
his principle advisor was close and sympathetic (let's say that --
spy is such an emotive word) to the USSR and communism? If HH did
what he did with FDR's approval, can one call HH a spy?
GFH
>
> And HH served as a 'protector' for Akhmerov? How active was the FBI
> against USSR agents during the FDR administration? Did FDR care if
> his principle advisor was close and sympathetic (let's say that --
> spy is such an emotive word) to the USSR and communism? If HH did
> what he did with FDR's approval, can one call HH a spy?
I take it you are now backing away from your claim that Hopkins
was a spy? Very well.
There is no substantive evidence that he was "sympathetic" to
communism as a system of government. However, he was given the
task, by FDR to attempt to find out about Soviet policies, and
to try to answer some fundamental questions, for the US after
Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union. Were the soviets likely to
continue their fight or perhaps seek peace with Hitler? Was Soviet
defeat imminent? Should the US send materiel to the SU, and then how
much? What was the situation in the Soviet armed forces?
He got lots of answers from Stalin and unprecedented access to
him and other Soviet leaders at the time, they had conversations
in the Kremlin for hours on end, and he was able to get information
that British and American diplomats had attempted for months to
obtain from Stalin, in 1941. A perfectly legitimate attempt was
being made to establish an alliance with the Soviet Union to fight
a common enemy, and Hopkins played a pivotal role in that.
Conspiracy theorists can undoubtedly play with that endlessly, but
the main point is that all this work was in the interest of the US.
The Soviet union was an enigma to the President, and he was not
sure what to make of Stalin, or of Churchill until Placentia Bay.
He trusted Hopkins to assess these issues, and talk to these gentlemen
and make an independent assessment. The State Dept. wasn't always
happy with that, to be sure, but this is how FDR worked in this area.
Quickly after his return from Moscow, Hopkins brought back a
favourable
impression of Soviet abilities to withstand the Nazi onslaught, and
not
everybody in the Administration agreed with that assessment. I think
the
turn of events was to prove him right. A continued Soviet resistance
was
in the interest of the US and Britain, an understanding between Hitler
and Stalin would have spelled disaster.
Thor Eysteinsson
>
> And HH served as a 'protector' for Akhmerov? How active was the FBI
> against USSR agents during the FDR administration? Did FDR care if
> his principle advisor was close and sympathetic (let's say that --
> spy is such an emotive word) to the USSR and communism? If HH did
> what he did with FDR's approval, can one call HH a spy?
I take it you are now backing away from your claim that Hopkins
Thor Eysteinsson
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
--
I'll repeat this again since you ignored the first two times:
- The evidence that Harry Hopkins was an agent of the KGB, either
witting or unwittingly, is based on the claims of Oleg Gorievsky
_and no other documented sources_.
There is not one shred of independent evidence indicating that Hopkins
had ever met or was aware of Akhmerov's existence. Zero. Zilch.
Nothing, as in nada.
Here's what Gordievsky says in 'KGB: The Inside Story', written with
Christopher Andrew. Gordievsky attended a lecture by Akhmerov in which
he claimed:
The main subject of his lecture was the man whom, he alleged, was
the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the United
States: Harry Hopkins, the closest and most trusted adviser of
President Roosevelt.
...
Gordievsky did not discover either from Akhmerov's lecture to
Directorate S or from subsequent discussions in the KGB when and how
he first established contact with Hopkins. They were already in
contact, however, before Hopkins's first visit to the Soviet Union
in the summer of 1941, just over a month after the German invasion.
Christopher Andrew and Oleg Gordievsky, "KGB: the Inside Story"
Furthermore, Gordievsky says that Akhmerov claimed numerous meetings
with Hopkins in which he passed direct messages from Stalin to
Hopkins.
Akhmerov's claims are dubious at best.
Consider first the claim that Akhmerov had recruited Hopkins as an
agent of influence prior to July 1941. This would have been an
unprecendented intelligence coup: the remote recruitment of foreign
agents. Akhmerov had returned to the USSR in 1938 and did not return
to the US until December 1941[1], thus it is impossible for him to
have recruited Hopkins in July 1941.
Turning to Akhmerov's claims of meetings with Hopkins, this seems
unlikely as well. Akhmerov operated his spies through two levels of
'cutouts'. American agents were in direct contact with Elizabeth
Bentley, who in turn was operated by another Soviet illegal, Jakob
Golos. Akhmerov never directly contacted American agents.[2]
Akhmerov's claim that he directly meet with Hopkins was, if true, a
dangerous breech of security that flew in the face of his organization
of his agent networks.
The recruitment of Hopkins would have been an exception to the
strategy of the Soviet illegal system in the US. Akhmerov and other
Soviet illegals strove to recruit moles among ideologically
sympathetic young recruits. As with the Cambridge spies, these moles
were expected to rise to high levels in governments and provide
valuable information along the way. Their development took years,
however. The most prominent of the American moles, Alger Hiss,
Laurence Duggan, Harry Dexter White and Nathan Silvermaster, were
recruited in 1930s, years before rising to the middle levels of
bureaucracy in the 1940s.
Harry Hopkins had no flirtation with communism and came from a totally
different background than the 1930s era recruits. Hopkins was born and
educated in the Midwest and was already a Roosevelt functionary in
1928, well before the Soviets began their campaign of recruiting
agents through illegals.
: And HH served as a 'protector' for Akhmerov?
Previously I said "Hopkins did know exactly who Akhmerov was and what
he did since Hopkins was privy to FBI investigations of Soviet
espionage activities that named Akhmerov as a Soviet illegal." I was
mistaken.
While Hopkins was aware of some Soviet espionage activities - Hopkins
was briefed on NKVD espionage efforts in the Soviet embassy by
J. Edgar Hoover - no US official was aware of the identity or
activities of Akhmerov until 1945 or later. In 1945, Elizabeth Bentley
defected and the FBI began working to unravel Akhmerov's networks. It
wasn't until Venona began to have successes that Akhmerov's activities
were fully revealed.
The notion that Hopkins could 'protect' Akhmerov is ridiculous.
Hopkins, influential though he was, was the administrator of
Lend-Lease. How could he intervene in what were basically law
enforcement matters? Of course, if you believe that IT WAS ALL A
CONSPIRACY, it is possible.
: Did FDR care if
: his principle advisor was close and sympathetic (let's say that --
: spy is such an emotive word) to the USSR and communism? If HH did
: what he did with FDR's approval, can one call HH a spy?
Here's a new flash for you: Lend-Lease aid publicly provided a large
amount of weapons, food, raw materials and logistical support to the
Soviet Union. It was not a conspiracy by pinkos and traitors.
The policy did not originate with Harry Hopkins. It originated in the
governments of both the US and Great Britain at the highest levels,
namely Roosevelt and Churchill. Harry Hopkins was tasked with ensuring
that Lend-Lease aid reached the USSR in a timely and effective manner.
If one is prone to seeing Reds under beds, such a policy may appear to
have been nefarious, but such is the luxury of hindsight. Brutally
put, every German soldier killed fighting the USSR was one less
Britain and the US would have to fight. Such realism does not require
some covert ideological bent or desire to betray the US, just the
dimmest perception of strategic priorities.
[1] Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin, "The Sword and the
Shield: the Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB"
[2] ibid.
I'll repeat this again since you ignored the first two times:
...
: And HH served as a 'protector' for Akhmerov?
Previously I said "Hopkins did know exactly who Akhmerov was and what
he did since Hopkins was privy to FBI investigations of Soviet
espionage activities that named Akhmerov as a Soviet illegal." I was
mistaken.
While Hopkins was aware of some Soviet espionage activities - Hopkins
was briefed on NKVD espionage efforts in the Soviet embassy by
J. Edgar Hoover - no US official was aware of the identity or
activities of Akhmerov until 1945 or later. In 1945, Elizabeth Bentley
defected and the FBI began working to unravel Akhmerov's networks. It
wasn't until Venona began to have successes that Akhmerov's activities
were fully revealed.
The notion that Hopkins could 'protect' Akhmerov is ridiculous.
Hopkins, influential though he was, was the administrator of
Lend-Lease. How could he intervene in what were basically law
enforcement matters? Of course, if you believe that IT WAS ALL A
CONSPIRACY, it is possible.
: Did FDR care if
: his principle advisor was close and sympathetic (let's say that --
: spy is such an emotive word) to the USSR and communism? If HH did
: what he did with FDR's approval, can one call HH a spy?
Here's a new flash for you: Lend-Lease aid publicly provided a large
amount of weapons, food, raw materials and logistical support to the
Soviet Union. It was not a conspiracy by pinkos and traitors.
The policy did not originate with Harry Hopkins. It originated in the
governments of both the US and Great Britain at the highest levels,
namely Roosevelt and Churchill. Harry Hopkins was tasked with ensuring
that Lend-Lease aid reached the USSR in a timely and effective manner.
If one is prone to seeing Reds under beds, such a policy may appear to
have been nefarious, but such is the luxury of hindsight. Brutally
put, every German soldier killed fighting the USSR was one less
Britain and the US would have to fight. Such realism does not require
some covert ideological bent or desire to betray the US, just the
dimmest perception of strategic priorities.
[1] Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin, "The Sword and the
Shield: the Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB"
[2] ibid.