Dog Tag Notch
EBrown2841
other. Heresay had it that the purpose of the notch was to allowed one of the
two tags you carried to be jammed between your two front teeth for identifying
your remains if you were killed in the field. I never heard or read anything
official regarding this. Do any of you have any first hand knowledge as to
whether nor not this was actually the case? Thanks.
Emory Brown
EBrow...@aol.com
Velovich
>two tags you carried to be jammed between your two front teeth for
>identifying
>your remains if you were killed in the field.
The tag itslef is to be placed between teh upper and lower teeth, as in it
would look like you are biting it. The tag on the long chain is to be out in
the mouth, the squad leader or platoon leader is to take charge of the short
chain tag, and provide it to the Company Clerk for passing it on to Graves
Registration.
V-Man
=/\=
<*>
PDC Sensha
the
two tags you carried to be jammed between your two front teeth for identifying
official regarding this. Do any of you have any first hand knowledge as to
whether nor not this was actually the case? >>
Interesting theory that I've heard as well, but one of the personnel at the
Granite City Army Depot told me once that it was to ensure that the tags were
properly inserted (in a big stack) in the typing/stamping machine.
Terry L. Stibal
pdcs...@aol.com
casita
place on the embossing machine.
casita
giving
>his teeth a place to "bite"
I got this info from the horses mouth.
It says "the notch" was to hold the tag in place on the embossing machine.
http://www.qmfound.com/short_history_of_identification_tags.htm
different drummer
>The only purpose of "the notch" was to hold the blank tag in
>place on the embossing machine.
>
I read somewhere that it was also used to nail the tag to the Cross or
Star of David if the man was KIA. The first nail was put through the
hole that held the chain, and then the tag was put in position before
the other nail, in the notch, held it in place.
BTW I know that they have stone memorials at the US war graves sites
now, I was talking about when Graves Registration made the first
temporary burial.
T.S.
replace the "dot" with "." to reply
casita
different drummer wrote in message
<37c6086b...@news.curie.dialix.com.au>...
>I read somewhere that it was also used to nail the tag to the Cross or
>Star of David if the man was KIA. The first nail was put through the
>hole that held the chain, and then the tag was put in position before
>the other nail, in the notch, held it in place.
Forget the notch. It was used for production purposes and is no longer
used.
It is a military legend that "the notch" was intended for field use and
there are no military instructions to support that.
One tag stayed with the man for eternity and was never removed.
The other was not removed till the man was actually going into the ground.
Sometimes it was attached to the marker, but it should be remembered that
these were only temporary graves in the field that would likely be exhumed
and re-interred elsewhere. Especially if American.
These graves could be flooded, over run in counter attacks again and and
again, burned blown up etc. The ground was not secure. The tag could
easily be lost.
Better to keep it on a ring sequentially with a good map. The map would
have to be good because things like trees and buildings could be destroyed.
The scene in SPR where the tags were simply dumped all together in a jumble
in a bag and then a helmet all mixed up shows they were not nailed to the
markers and indicates a poor inventory. They should be on a ring, in
order. But, if a good map was made, they could be referenced and secure
with the clerk.
In the case of RAF aircrew shot down behind enemy lines, it was a
completely different story. I had two uncles KIA and it made a big
difference if you were shot down over Germany or Occupied France.
S. Gale
identify a casualty on the battle field. We used them for that purpose
in the early 50s in the Korean war. V-Man is absolutely right. I don't
think they were used during WWII though.
Semper Fi Gunny Gale
Velovich
I dunno if we're on the same OPlan, Gunny...
To me, the notch isn't important, the placing of the tag in the mouth, like a
cracker, was. The notch simply didn't figure into it, AFIK... The Soldier's
long chain tag was put in the mouth, flat against the teeth, and the mouth
shut. It usually took more than a few hours to evacuate the dead, so Rigor
would have set in, and the tag wasn't going anywhere. When evacuation of the
dead became routinely quick, in Viet Nam, OD Green Duct tape was used to tape
the mouth shut, once the tag was placed in the mouth, to ensure it stayed
there.
The Senior Officer/NCO present would collect the short chain tag (in both
periods) and retain it, sort of a way of accounting for his troops. If the man
wasn't present, or evacuated to a hospital, his tag showed he was dead, even if
the body had to be abandoned.
Is this what you meant?
V-Man
=/\=
<*>
Cub driver
>Forget the notch. It was used for production purposes and is no longer
>used.
What possible production use? The circa 1956 tag was a rectangular
piece of metal which would have been easier to produce without the
notch. To imprint the information, it was clipped into an
Addressograph machine (otherwise used to make mailing plates for
newspapers and magazines); the notch had nothing to do with that
process, either. I made dogtags in the army and later made mailing
plates (same machine, no notch in the plates) at a magazine.
>It is a military legend that "the notch" was intended for field use and
>there are no military instructions to support that.
Could well be a legend, but it was current at Fort Dix in 1956, and
all our cadre were Korea veterans and presumably familiar with the
drill. My guess is that the notch would serve to secure the tag
between the jaws if the teeth were missing.
>The scene in SPR where the tags were simply dumped all together in a jumble
>in a bag and then a helmet all mixed up shows they were not nailed to the
>markers and indicates a poor inventory. They should be on a ring, in
Possibly it only indicates what a superficially realistic but
historically dishonest film SPR was. That scene was one of about
twenty that struck me as especially implausible.
I hasten to add: that was a good post, about locating graves. Thank
you!
casita
URL in which crosses are the only visible markers).
I read somewhere, dig it up if you wish, that in 1927 Jewish war dead were
given Star of David markers.
When you look at American war cemeteries, you will see such markers.
casita
Cub driver wrote in message <37c7c4b6...@news.usenetserver.com>...
>>Forget the notch.
>What possible production use?
This is what I read from the US Army.
The notch was used to hold the tag in place while the
operator embossed it on the machine.
http://www.qmfound.com/short_history_of_identification_tags.htm
>Could well be a legend, but it was current at Fort Dix in 1956, and
>all our cadre were Korea veterans and presumably familiar with the
>drill.
I still have my CDN Army dog tags and even my grandfathers from WW1 ( a
fibre material ).
The old soldiers used to tell us about putting the tag between the teeth,
but I NEVER got that from an official source.
I wondered about it then.
I think it was just to upset people that the notion of stuffing a guys tags
in his mouth came about. I just can't see the reason for it, and have
never seen an official source support this.
My guess is that the notch would serve to secure the tag
>between the jaws if the teeth were missing.
Then the tag would have to be jammed in at a 90% angle to the teeth to use
"the notch".
This makes no sense. Even putting them in the mouth makes none.
Leave the tags around the neck.
What if the guy had rigor?
What about when the rigor goes flacid?
Dentures, or no teeth, or broken teeth?
The tag is secured around the guys spinal column ( neck ).
Thanks, Cub. I enjoy your ( infrequent ) posts also.
casita
Velovich wrote in message <37d090ef...@news.usenetserver.com>...
> To me, the notch isn't important,
"The notch" was to hold the tag in place on the embossing machine.
the placing of the tag in the mouth, like a
>cracker, was.
Like a flat cracker?
The notch would be of no use in that case with no teeth to hook on.
The notch simply didn't figure into it, AFIK...
No, it did not.
The Soldier's
>long chain tag was put in the mouth, flat against the teeth, and the mouth
>shut.
Is there some verifiable source for this, or is it military legend?
It usually took more than a few hours to evacuate the dead, so Rigor
>would have set in, and the tag wasn't going anywhere.
Rigor Mortis is only temporary.
Why on Earth would the dog tags be stuffed into a guys mouth and sealed with
duct tape?
Why not just leave them where they are and simply remove one just before he
goes into the ground?
> The Senior Officer/NCO present would collect the short chain tag (in both
>periods) and retain it,
I agree with that.
Simply nailing one tag to the marker and walking away could mean the loss of
the grave.
One tag had to be carried away and stored safely so an inventory of graves
could be taken after the battle.
A good source is "Courage Remembered: The story of the Commonwealth War
Graves Commission."
I read a US Army War Graves Registration handbook at the Toronto Reference
Library.
It didn't say anything about stuffing dog tags into the mouth.
newsman
<37d090ef...@news.usenetserver.com>:
[Re the notch on dog tags and how tags were secured in the KIA's mouth]
> The Senior Officer/NCO present would collect the short chain tag (in both
>periods) and retain it, sort of a way of accounting for his troops. If the man
>wasn't present, or evacuated to a hospital, his tag showed he was dead, even if
>the body had to be abandoned.
This is at least the second mention here of a 'short chain tag,' with
the implication that it was used both in WW II and in Vietnam. What was
that like, and why/how was it used? IIRC during the Korean War we were
issued a single long chain on which both dog tags were strung, and I
thought that was also true in WW II, since so little had changed between
1945 and 1950 both in procedures and in equipment.
--
Don
TSBench
<cas...@home.com> writes:
>Forget the notch. It was used for production purposes and is no longer
>used.
>It is a military legend that "the notch" was intended for field use and
>there are no military instructions to support that.>>>
FWIW......
"...the dog tag which was attached to your clothing would be buried with you.
The one that was attached to wooden stake or the rifle would be prised off, so
it could be nailed to the lid of your coffin. The notch at one end of the tag
was used to position the first nail which was driven into the coffin lid.
There has been a belief throughout the Army that the notch was used to wedge
the dog tag between your front teeth, ensuring that a permanent record remained
with the body. So many men suffered massive wounds in the face and jaw that it
simply wasn't practical to adopt such a practice. As soldier lore, however, the
notched dog tag between the teeth exerted a grisly
fascination..................."
There's A War to be Won
Geoffrey Perret
Pg 486
Regards,
TSB
Bill Walker...Producer and Cohost of The Shooting Bench radio
program....General Manager, WDIS-Radio, Norfolk, Massachusetts.
Velovich
>"the notch".
>This makes no sense.
True, absoluetly none. Frankly, it sounds like some privates were
bored and one was fiddling with his doggies and asked himself, but aloud,
"What's this notch for???" Privates being what thehy are, speculation
started and the bull session that resulted likely lasted will an NCO
showed up and gave them some work.
> Even putting them in the mouth makes none.
It ensures the tag is not lost. I was told to do this in the US Army
in the 80s, and to place OD duct tape over the mouth to keep it there.
The long chain tag is put in the mouth, flat in relation to the tounge,
and the short chain tag is turned in to the CO, Unit AG Officer, or Graves
Registration, preference being GR...
<*> V-Man
A Knight is sworn to Valor
His Heart knows only Virtue
His Blade defends the Weak
His Word speaks only Truth
His Wrath undoes the Wicked
Delete the ".CanDo" from my addy to reply!
Velovich
>the implication that it was used both in WW II and in Vietnam. What was
>that like, and why/how was it used?
The long chain, the one you are familiar with, had one tag. The short chain
is about 2 inches long when closed, and it has a duplicate tag, and is strung
ont eh long chain. The short chain is easily opened and removed from teh long
one, then placed on a ring, another chain, whatever, with the other shorts of
KIAs in the platoon... I think usage was that the Squad Leader or platoon
leader/sergeant would take charge of the short chain, then give it to the medic
to hold onto, since he dealt with evac of the casualties, even the dead.
>IIRC during the Korean War we were
>issued a single long chain on which both dog tags were strung, and I
>thought that was also true in WW II, since so little had changed between
>1945 and 1950 both in procedures and in equipment.
I didn't realise that. I thought there had only been teh long/short combo
once the basic pattern was adopted in the days before WW II...
Miktb
>the implication that it was used both in WW II and in Vietnam. What was
>issued a single long chain on which both dog tags were strung, and I
>thought that was also true in WW II, since so little had changed between
>1945 and 1950 both in procedures and in equipment.
I'm jumping in late so I apologize if I'm covering old ground. The whole notch
in the dogtag thing is one of those great "urban legend" stories. I'll bet
that there were even NCO's who actually did hammer the tag into the teeth of
some poor KIA somewhere. I agree with the person who stated that the notch
was to align the tag in the machine that stamps the info on the tag. Actually,
I've been issued several sets of tags over the years that had no notch at all.
I saw my last set made, and the PSNCO just set the blank tag in a little frame
and closed the lid of the machine over it and voila: new dogtags! (looked sort
of like a credit card machine)
The theory behind the long and short chain is that when a soldier is KIA, the
NCOIC takes the short chain tag for the casualty feeder report and the long
chain tag stays with the body for identification purposes. You are not
supposed to collect up tags while soldiers are still alive. If you need to
know who is present do a head count!
Mike Burk
Dan Hogan
[sNIP]
>This is at least the second mention here of a 'short chain tag,' with
>the implication that it was used both in WW II and in Vietnam. What was
>that like, and why/how was it used? IIRC during the Korean War we were
>issued a single long chain on which both dog tags were strung, and I
>thought that was also true in WW II, since so little had changed between
>1945 and 1950 both in procedures and in equipment.
Hmm. Everyone in my outfit carried the "short chain" dog tag, usually
taped together because of the noise they made on patrol. This was
winter '51 to '52, Dog Co. 38th Inf.
We all assumed the notch was for the teeth.
S. Gale
which both dog tags were strung," I was in the Marine Corps during the
Korean war and we used a short chain for one dog tag so they wouldn't
bang together and let the enemy know where we were. Some Army people
taped their tags together for the same reason.
Semper Fi Gunny Gale
newsman
[Moderator's note: this is straying from WWII. Let's bring it back around.]
>> The Senior Officer/NCO present would collect the short chain tag (in both
>>periods) and retain it,
>I agree with that.
I'm not sure I do, since during Korea AFAIR there was no 'short chain'
issued to us.
EBrown2841
During Air Force basic training at Lackland AFB in 1962, we were issued two
tags and two chains. The larger chain went around your neck and one of the
tags was placed on it. The smaller chain, about 2.5" dia. hung from the larger
chain and the second tag was placed on it. Each tag contained your name,
serial number, the year you got your tetanus shot (T62 ), blood type and
religious affiliation. This " short chain tag " was the one usually removed
after your death and the one on the long chain was left with you. I still
carry one of mine on my key chain.
Emory Brown
EBrow...@aol.com
newsman
>I read somewhere, dig it up if you wish, that in 1927 Jewish war dead were
>given Star of David markers.
>When you look at American war cemeteries, you will see such markers.
Oh, I'm reasonably sure that permanent US military cemeteries have Stars
of David as well as crosses, but I thought we were focusing on WW II
temporary burials, when the dog tag business would have been in play.
That's why I thought the Normandy cemetery might be apropos.
--
Don
casita
Velovich wrote in message <7qe1he$r...@dgs.dgsys.com>...
> I was told to do this in the US Army
>in the 80s, and to place OD duct tape over the mouth to keep it there.
I wore them also in Canada. We always told each other ( the Officers never
said this ), that one went in the mouth. I thought it was a joke, and
didn't worry about it because Camp Borden was about as safe a place as any.
But, think about it. The jaw stiffens and relaxes, the tape and flesh
deteriorate. The face may be broken anyway. Besides that, it's gross.
Leave them around the neck. The spinal column will last when everything
else falls apart.
JD
the machines that made the tags required the 'alignment notch',
later machines didn't.
Sincerely, JD