Sco history medieval
Renia
conduct those discussions in other appropriate places?
Renia
Grethe Bachmann
"Renia" <Re...@otenet.gr> skrev i en meddelelse
news:3E3DBC7F...@otenet.gr...
> Why is there so much Jew-talk on this newsgroup these days? Can't you
> conduct those discussions in other appropriate places?
>
> Renia
>
I agree with you. I can understand why some questions
are present time with all that happens now in the world-
but when you look down the list, nearly all threads are
dealing with present time.
****************************
Where have all the good threads gone
long time passing
Where have all the good threads gone
far far away
Where have all the good threads gone
gone to past time everyone
When will they ever learn....................
.........................................................
*****************************
Grethe `:)
Thorsten Ruffle-Brandt
> I agree with you. I can understand why some questions
> are present time with all that happens now in the world-
> but when you look down the list, nearly all threads are
> dealing with present time.
Not in _my_ list - but my killfile is full of non-medieval subjects... :-/
Mike Dana
>Why is there so much Jew-talk on this newsgroup these days? Can't you
>conduct those discussions in other appropriate places?
>
"These days"? It's been going on for at least a year-and-a-half, now.
--Mike Dana
Everett, Washington, U. S. A.
"If you pound it in, It'll squish out."
--Tom Barnts, 11 July, 2000
E. C. Lee
Well, I agree as well about the sorry state of this newsgroup as a
forum for Medieval history (although it IS a lively spot for political
discussion). In an open newsgroup you are stuck with people writing
about anything they please, but this is ridiculous!
I don't think we can really get rid of the non-topic posts without the
cooperation of those who participate and although a few folks might be
convinced, there are many who will not be.
However, another part of the solution is to start posting new topics
that ACTUALLY do refer to the Middle Ages. I suggest those who want
to discuss Medieval history come up with some good Medieval topics.
I wish I could think of something stimulating. Unfortunately I've
lately gotten more involved in Victorian subject matter lately, though
I might be able to open things up a bit.
I plan on visiting London and Paris this summer. Haven't been to
either place in decades. Perhaps someone could suggest some medieval
sites beyond the usual tourist fare? What are people's favorite, not
miss sights in those two cities that you could recommend?
Also, there's the old, what are you reading now?
I'm currently looking at two books. One is on the edge of relevant.
It's the history of British art from Holbein on. OK, this is off the
period. However, I'm really struck the Medieval quality in the art of
the Elizabethan era. It's fascinating. It's as if they took a whole
different turn at the Renaissance. You basically get an iconic
religous art without the religion. Well, not completely without the
religion, the new religion is the cult of the court. So you get
Medieval art going in a different direction than it does in Italy or
even France. Part of the explaination, which makes sense, is that
you're not going to get the influences from the art of Catholic
countries. Probably a concious move. Of course it does eventually
filters in, through foreign artists and more travel on behalf of
English patrons. However, till then you get an emphasis on flatness
and the Medieval love of pattern.
Anyway, I never thought much about the art of this period, but seeing
it in this context has made me appreciate it more.
Now definitely on topic, is the Oxford book on Medieval England. I've
always stuck more to France and not read too much about England when
it came to the period. I'm thus far enjoying it and find it a good
survey.
Anyone else reading anything good? And as close to topic as possible!
Eve
Martin Reboul
Renia wrote...
> Why is there so much Jew-talk on this newsgroup these days? Can't you
> conduct those discussions in other appropriate places?
I blame 'Commander' D. Spencer "Some of my Best Friends are Druze" Hines,
for cuttin' n' pastin' a load of irrelevant twaddle. And Susan Cohen for
being an irascible, scratchy, persistently irritating PMS sufferer. And
those who are cruel enough to wind the sad, hysterical creature up of course
(ahem!)
I was sorely tempted, but....
Cheers
Martin
Grethe Bachmann
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:f0cfed5b.03020...@posting.google.com...
>
> Eve
I'm not very disciplined in reading about the Middle Ages. There are
so many interesting subjects. I'm also very fascinated by the
Elizabethan era. As a whole I like reading about the personalities
in Medieval history. I've just now got Isabella d'Este on my mind for
the next book-subject. (I guess I "jump" too much between books!)
I'm not a scholar - but my interest is genuine enough. I just haven't
had the spare time to go deep into the material. Anyway, I enjoy
reading the medieval threads in this group.
One book I'm reading a little of every night right now is a part of the
Icelandic sagas - "Egil Skallagrimssons Saga" - I have read it before,
but have now really discovered how great it is.
Egil's life is tough,violent and cruel - but he's an intelligent man- and
there are several scenes where some humour shines through .
I've just read about his single combat with Ljot the Pale , where Ljot
goes berserk and in bloodthirstiness bites his shield. Egil sings one of
his kvad/songs calling Ljot "a foolish shieldeater."
But the whole saga is great.
Cheers from Grethe, who is going to "Värmlandsfärden"
with Egil Skallagrimsson tonight.
Martin Reboul
E. C. Lee wrote...
> Thorsten Ruffle-Brandt wrote...
> > Grethe Bachmann wrote :
> >
> > > I agree with you. I can understand why some questions
> > > are present time with all that happens now in the world-
> > > but when you look down the list, nearly all threads are
> > > dealing with present time.
> >
> > Not in _my_ list - but my killfile is full of non-medieval subjects...
:-/
>
> Well, I agree as well about the sorry state of this newsgroup as a
> forum for Medieval history (although it IS a lively spot for political
> discussion). In an open newsgroup you are stuck with people writing
> about anything they please, but this is ridiculous!
>
> I don't think we can really get rid of the non-topic posts without the
> cooperation of those who participate and although a few folks might be
> convinced, there are many who will not be.
>
> However, another part of the solution is to start posting new topics
> that ACTUALLY do refer to the Middle Ages. I suggest those who want
> to discuss Medieval history come up with some good Medieval topics.
>
> I wish I could think of something stimulating. Unfortunately I've
> lately gotten more involved in Victorian subject matter lately, though
> I might be able to open things up a bit.
>
> I plan on visiting London and Paris this summer. Haven't been to
> either place in decades. Perhaps someone could suggest some medieval
> sites beyond the usual tourist fare? What are people's favorite, not
> miss sights in those two cities that you could recommend?
Well, there's always my place dear lady - a distinctly 'medieval' falvour
many have said? Really medieval is hard to find in London though (apart from
the 'squalor' aspect as mentioned). St Albans Abbey... not bad...
The Tower is too Elizabethan for me personally. You need to go to Warwick
or Tewkesbury to sample it properly (only a couple of hours drive). I'm sure
there will be other suggestions? With luck you may catch a re-enactment -
David DeBono is the chap to ask.
> Also, there's the old, what are you reading now?
Er... Le Peintre et son Miroir.... fascinating!
> I'm currently looking at two books. One is on the edge of relevant.
> It's the history of British art from Holbein on. OK, this is off the
> period. However, I'm really struck the Medieval quality in the art of
> the Elizabethan era. It's fascinating. It's as if they took a whole
> different turn at the Renaissance. You basically get an iconic
> religous art without the religion. Well, not completely without the
> religion, the new religion is the cult of the court. So you get
> Medieval art going in a different direction than it does in Italy or
> even France. Part of the explaination, which makes sense, is that
> you're not going to get the influences from the art of Catholic
> countries. Probably a concious move. Of course it does eventually
> filters in, through foreign artists and more travel on behalf of
> English patrons. However, till then you get an emphasis on flatness
> and the Medieval love of pattern.
It seems that in England there were no great schools of art or 'movements'
until well after the medieval period (I'm talking of painting here). What
does exist from 'my' period (late 15thC) are some rather flat, lacklustre
portraits and, more intriguingly, a number of drawings in pen and ink by
naturally talented atrtists, mostly anonymous, in works such as the Pageant
of Richard Beachamp or the Rous Roll. Plus the usual illuminated MSS stuff
of course. I may be wrong on this mind you, arthist. isn't my speciality?
> Anyway, I never thought much about the art of this period, but seeing
> it in this context has made me appreciate it more.
>
> Now definitely on topic, is the Oxford book on Medieval England. I've
> always stuck more to France and not read too much about England when
> it came to the period. I'm thus far enjoying it and find it a good
> survey.
>
> Anyone else reading anything good? And as close to topic as possible!
Have a look at 'Louis XI' by P M Kendal - old but good. The Universal
Spider - has to be recommended?
Cheers
Martin
Renia
>
> I wish I could think of something stimulating. Unfortunately I've
> lately gotten more involved in Victorian subject matter lately, though
> I might be able to open things up a bit.
I find all periods post-Hastings fascinating. My preference is 18th century.
>
> I plan on visiting London and Paris this summer.
Lucky you.
> Haven't been to
> either place in decades. Perhaps someone could suggest some medieval
> sites beyond the usual tourist fare? What are people's favorite, not
> miss sights in those two cities that you could recommend?
If you've not managed Rouen before, that's worth a visit. Not in London
or Paris, I know, but on the way between the two. I love a waddle around
Covent Garden. Bars, cafes, etc, on a waddling day.
>
> Also, there's the old, what are you reading now?
Nothing at the moment. Too busy sorting out databases. Last book was The
Forest by Edward Rutherford. Next will be the autobiog of Heather Mills
which someone has lent me. But there's a whole stash of them sitting
there tempting me!
Renia
Paul J Gans
>On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 02:49:03 +0200, Renia <Re...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>>Why is there so much Jew-talk on this newsgroup these days? Can't you
>>conduct those discussions in other appropriate places?
>>
>"These days"? It's been going on for at least a year-and-a-half, now.
Some folks here seem to have a real problem with Jews.
What else is new?
---- Paul J. Gans
erilar
Bachmann" <grethe....@mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> One book I'm reading a little of every night right now is a part of the
> Icelandic sagas - "Egil Skallagrimssons Saga" - I have read it before,
> but have now really discovered how great it is.
> Egil's life is tough,violent and cruel - but he's an intelligent man- and
> there are several scenes where some humour shines through .
> I've just read about his single combat with Ljot the Pale , where Ljot
> goes berserk and in bloodthirstiness bites his shield. Egil sings one of
> his kvad/songs calling Ljot "a foolish shieldeater."
>
> But the whole saga is great.
>
> Cheers from Grethe, who is going to "Värmlandsfärden"
> with Egil Skallagrimsson tonight.
Way to go. Njal's Saga is also great, but Egil's is my favorite 8-)
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Paul J Gans
I'd take a peak at the Templar Church in the Temple. The
later rectangular church to which it was joined has some
interest for those of us who went through WWII.
But the Templar Church contains the graves of William
the Marshal and family, including effigies on the crypts.
Perhaps most interesting are the heads carved onto the
columns. Not what one normally thinks about in a "church"
environment.
There's another round Templar church up in Cambridge. I've
only ever seen it from the outside though.
I'd also go to the Tower. Little enough is left of William's
construction (except the walls), but the archaeology around it
is rather interesting. It marked the spot where the walls
of London met the Thames on the east side of the city.
And then there's the Church across the river in Southwark.
Not only are there one or two famous Americans commemorated
there (including John Harvard), but in the vicinity are
the remains of the dungeon called the "Clink", from which
we get that term.
You'll know about the museums and St. Paul, of course.
For Paris, the number of medieval things to see is Legion.
The art medieval and modern will take days even for a
cursory view. You must, of course, see La Chapelle.
But things I've liked include the Place des Voges (which
is a bit tarted up but once you learn its history remains
wonderful), And spend an hour or two in the Marais (a
short walk from the Place des Voges).
I could go on and on.
Enjoy yourself!
---- Paul J. Gans
erilar
<ga...@panix.com> wrote:
> Some folks here seem to have a real problem with Jews.
I haven't noticed--must either be someone I've killfiled or in the
threads I judge as boring without opening.
Kathy McIntosh
<afro...@yahoo.com> writes
I seem to spend more time killing threads then I do reading them :-{
>
>Also, there's the old, what are you reading now?
Nothing medieval I'm afraid, The Chymical Wedding, by Lindsay Clarke.
Also, piles and piles of mindless, boring .... err, highly relevant
documentation connected to our upcoming school inspection. Did go
through the Invaders and Settlers, and the Tudors history topic boxes
yesterday. I was deeply incensed by the amount of resources my fellow
teachers have "misplaced" in two years.
--
Kathy
Cats would rule the world if only they could be bothered
E. C. Lee
> so many interesting subjects. I'm also very fascinated by the
> Elizabethan era. As a whole I like reading about the personalities
> in Medieval history. I've just now got Isabella d'Este on my mind for
> the next book-subject. (I guess I "jump" too much between books!)
> I'm not a scholar - but my interest is genuine enough. I just haven't
> had the spare time to go deep into the material. Anyway, I enjoy
> reading the medieval threads in this group.
>
fondness for collecting art. Let me know how you research on her
goes!
Eve
E. C. Lee
> E. C. Lee wrote...
> > However, another part of the solution is to start posting new topics
> > that ACTUALLY do refer to the Middle Ages. I suggest those who want
> > to discuss Medieval history come up with some good Medieval topics.
> >
> > I wish I could think of something stimulating. Unfortunately I've
> > lately gotten more involved in Victorian subject matter lately, though
> > I might be able to open things up a bit.
> >
> > I plan on visiting London and Paris this summer. Haven't been to
> > either place in decades. Perhaps someone could suggest some medieval
> > sites beyond the usual tourist fare? What are people's favorite, not
> > miss sights in those two cities that you could recommend?
>
> Well, there's always my place dear lady - a distinctly 'medieval' falvour
> many have said?
Ummm, how so? <she asks some trepitdation>
Really medieval is hard to find in London though (apart from
> the 'squalor' aspect as mentioned). St Albans Abbey... not bad...
> The Tower is too Elizabethan for me personally. You need to go to Warwick
> or Tewkesbury to sample it properly (only a couple of hours drive).
Not sure if I'll have time for that, although it does sound like fun.
I'm sure
> there will be other suggestions? With luck you may catch a re-enactment -
> David DeBono is the chap to ask.
>
> > Also, there's the old, what are you reading now?
>
> Er... Le Peintre et son Miroir.... fascinating!
>
I'm sure! Probably not on topic though. Wouldn't mind hearing about
it another time.
> > I'm currently looking at two books. One is on the edge of relevant.
> > It's the history of British art from Holbein on. OK, this is off the
> > period. However, I'm really struck the Medieval quality in the art of
> > the Elizabethan era. It's fascinating. It's as if they took a whole
> > different turn at the Renaissance. You basically get an iconic
> > religous art without the religion. Well, not completely without the
> > religion, the new religion is the cult of the court. So you get
> > Medieval art going in a different direction than it does in Italy or
> > even France. Part of the explaination, which makes sense, is that
> > you're not going to get the influences from the art of Catholic
> > countries. Probably a concious move. Of course it does eventually
> > filters in, through foreign artists and more travel on behalf of
> > English patrons. However, till then you get an emphasis on flatness
> > and the Medieval love of pattern.
>
> It seems that in England there were no great schools of art or 'movements'
> until well after the medieval period (I'm talking of painting here). What
> does exist from 'my' period (late 15thC) are some rather flat, lacklustre
> portraits and, more intriguingly, a number of drawings in pen and ink by
> naturally talented atrtists, mostly anonymous, in works such as the Pageant
> of Richard Beachamp or the Rous Roll. Plus the usual illuminated MSS stuff
> of course. I may be wrong on this mind you, arthist. isn't my speciality?
>
Well, that's the point. It was never thought of as an interesting
period or movement. But it actually is. You can't really look at it
from the viewpoint of contemporary works in other places. You have to
think of it in it's context. Then it actually does become interesting
in rather a peculiar way. And beautiful, as well.
What most people are able to appreciate is Elizabethan applied arts.
I think of needlework in particular. Of course, if you transfer the
same aethetics that you'd use to appreciate in the applied arts to
their paintings you can actually understand the paintings a little
better.
But of course, I'm no expert here. It just struck me as something
I've never really thought of before, never even liked, that looked at
from a different POV could be rewarding.
>
> Have a look at 'Louis XI' by P M Kendal - old but good. The Universal
> Spider - has to be recommended?
I'll consider it.
Thank you for your input.
Eve
E. C. Lee
<snip other thoughts on Medieval sites in London, including Martin's
place>
>
> I'd take a peak at the Templar Church in the Temple. The
> later rectangular church to which it was joined has some
> interest for those of us who went through WWII.
>
> But the Templar Church contains the graves of William
> the Marshal and family, including effigies on the crypts.
>
Great! That's even my period.
> Perhaps most interesting are the heads carved onto the
> columns. Not what one normally thinks about in a "church"
> environment.
>
> There's another round Templar church up in Cambridge. I've
> only ever seen it from the outside though.
>
Don't know if I'll be that way, but I'll keep it in mind.
> I'd also go to the Tower. Little enough is left of William's
> construction (except the walls), but the archaeology around it
> is rather interesting. It marked the spot where the walls
> of London met the Thames on the east side of the city.
>
> And then there's the Church across the river in Southwark.
> Not only are there one or two famous Americans commemorated
> there (including John Harvard), but in the vicinity are
> the remains of the dungeon called the "Clink", from which
> we get that term.
>
I'd read about it. I was debating whether or not it was worth the
visit.
> You'll know about the museums and St. Paul, of course.
>
I'm just afraid I'll never leave the museums! Last visit I never even
made it out of the classical section of the British museum! Never did
the Tate or Victoria and Albert, and now that I'm interested in
Victorian art those are definitely on the agenda.
> For Paris, the number of medieval things to see is Legion.
> The art medieval and modern will take days even for a
> cursory view. You must, of course, see La Chapelle.
That's definitely on the list.
> But things I've liked include the Place des Voges (which
> is a bit tarted up but once you learn its history remains
> wonderful), And spend an hour or two in the Marais (a
> short walk from the Place des Voges).
>
Oh, now that's something I hadn't thought of so I appreciate the
suggestions.
> I could go on and on.
>
Well, if you think of anything special later, let me know.
> Enjoy yourself!
>
Thanks. Won't be till summer and who knows what could happen from
here to there, but it's nice to have something to look forward to!
Eve
Inger E Johansson
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:f0cfed5b.03020...@posting.google.com...
> "Martin Reboul" <mar...@reboul1471.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<b1otg6$s9$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > E. C. Lee wrote...
>
> > > However, another part of the solution is to start posting new topics
> > > that ACTUALLY do refer to the Middle Ages. I suggest those who want
> > > to discuss Medieval history come up with some good Medieval topics.
> > >
> > > I wish I could think of something stimulating. Unfortunately I've
> > > lately gotten more involved in Victorian subject matter lately, though
> > > I might be able to open things up a bit.
> > >
> > > I plan on visiting London and Paris this summer. Haven't been to
> > > either place in decades. Perhaps someone could suggest some medieval
> > > sites beyond the usual tourist fare? What are people's favorite, not
> > > miss sights in those two cities that you could recommend?
> >
> > Well, there's always my place dear lady - a distinctly 'medieval'
falvour
> > many have said?
>
> Ummm, how so? <she asks some trepitdation>
>
> Really medieval is hard to find in London though (apart from
> > the 'squalor' aspect as mentioned). St Albans Abbey... not bad...
> > The Tower is too Elizabethan for me personally. You need to go to
Warwick
> > or Tewkesbury to sample it properly (only a couple of hours drive).
I suggest a tour with one of the priests as guides in Westminster Abbey.
Hopefully you end up after a long tour in English Medieval History -
Elizabethan's History many steps later with a new view of England. I really
hope you will be able to see the garden as well as behind some of the closed
doors. I have been lucky every time since I first went on such a tour in
early 70's. I don't always go there but when I do I love it.
Inger E
E. C. Lee
> E. C. Lee wrote:
>
> >
> > I wish I could think of something stimulating. Unfortunately I've
> > lately gotten more involved in Victorian subject matter lately, though
> > I might be able to open things up a bit.
>
> I find all periods post-Hastings fascinating. My preference is 18th century.
>
> >
> > I plan on visiting London and Paris this summer.
>
> Lucky you.
>
in a while. Especially if you like history.
> > Haven't been to
> > either place in decades. Perhaps someone could suggest some medieval
> > sites beyond the usual tourist fare? What are people's favorite, not
> > miss sights in those two cities that you could recommend?
>
> If you've not managed Rouen before, that's worth a visit. Not in London
> or Paris, I know, but on the way between the two. I love a waddle around
> Covent Garden. Bars, cafes, etc, on a waddling day.
>
If it was me, I'd just do one country at a time and really travel
along. Unfortunately, my traveling companion insists on otherwise.
Someday I would like to do that, and Rouen, if only for the cathedral,
would be on my list.
Hopefully, I won't be rushing too much and will get some opportunity
to also waddle.
Eve
Paul J Gans
Sadly, both London and Paris are like New York. One can
spend months (seriously) simply visiting museums, art
galleries, and the like.
Of course, you've got plenty of riches in Chicago too. It
is the most overlooked (by tourists) city in the US.
----- Paul J. Gans
David C Pugh
> > There's another round Templar church up in Cambridge. I've
> > only ever seen it from the outside though.
> >
> Don't know if I'll be that way, but I'll keep it in mind.
I know that place, it's interesting. And Cambridge is only an hour on
the train from London.
> > But things I've liked include the Place des Voges (which
> > is a bit tarted up but once you learn its history remains
> > wonderful), And spend an hour or two in the Marais (a
> > short walk from the Place des Voges).
> >
> Oh, now that's something I hadn't thought of so I appreciate the
> suggestions.
The Marais, seconded!!!!
And Rue Monsieur le Prince, I think, has both an Armenian and a
Sino-Japanese bookshop. That's near the Palais de Luxembourg.
--
David
"From ghouls and ghosties, and long-leggety beasties, and things that go
bump on the Net, Good Lord, deliver us"
E. C. Lee
> E. C. Lee <afro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message news:<b1p5ad$oi3$1...@reader1.panix.com>...
>
>
> Sadly, both London and Paris are like New York. One can
> spend months (seriously) simply visiting museums, art
> galleries, and the like.
>
> Of course, you've got plenty of riches in Chicago too. It
> is the most overlooked (by tourists) city in the US.
>
architecture. Unfortunately, it's not one of the top places if you're
looking for things on the Middle Ages!
Eve
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message news:<b1q1n3$5ve$3...@reader1.panix.com>...
>> E. C. Lee <afro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message news:<b1p5ad$oi3$1...@reader1.panix.com>...
>>
><snip Medieval things to do in London and Paris>
>>
>> Sadly, both London and Paris are like New York. One can
>> spend months (seriously) simply visiting museums, art
>> galleries, and the like.
>>
>> Of course, you've got plenty of riches in Chicago too. It
>> is the most overlooked (by tourists) city in the US.
>>
>It is a great city. One of the top places in the world for modern
>architecture. Unfortunately, it's not one of the top places if you're
>looking for things on the Middle Ages!
New York has a bit. Besides the Cloisters (Metropolitan
Museum of Art) the Morgan has a number of manuscripts with
some often on display. And there are bits and pieces
elsewhere.
Europe is awash in the stuff.
---- Paul J. Gans
erilar
<ga...@panix.com> wrote:
> Of course, you've got plenty of riches in Chicago too. It
> is the most overlooked (by tourists) city in the US.
I keep ending up in the Art Institute, where my daughter is a member 8-)
They have lots of neat stuff there, though their armor is late medieval
and their medieval art strikes one who's been looking at it in Germany
as pretty minimal. The Minneapolis Institute of Art is also better at
ancient than at medieval(was just there again and made it out with only
two more books!!!)
Grethe Bachmann
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:f0cfed5b.03020...@posting.google.com...
Hello Eve!
Sorry - this is off-topic from your questions too -
like my previous letter!
If you haven't been in Prague, then try that next year.
It's a wonderful city and the medieval atmosphere is
strong. It's easy to walk from place to place in the inner
old part of Prague - it is so beautiful.
You can still have a three-course dinner or more with
good wine at a very cheap price. And there are lots
of cosy pubs with excellent Czech beer.
But maybe you have been there?
Grethe.
Paul J Gans
>In article <b1q1n3$5ve$3...@reader1.panix.com>, Paul J Gans
><ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Of course, you've got plenty of riches in Chicago too. It
>> is the most overlooked (by tourists) city in the US.
>I keep ending up in the Art Institute, where my daughter is a member 8-)
>They have lots of neat stuff there, though their armor is late medieval
>and their medieval art strikes one who's been looking at it in Germany
>as pretty minimal. The Minneapolis Institute of Art is also better at
>ancient than at medieval(was just there again and made it out with only
>two more books!!!)
Yeah. Chicago's a little disappointing in that way.
Most armor I've seen in museums in the US is show armor,
i.e. late medieval or early modern designed to be worn
in parades and on special occasions. There's little
here in terms of chain or actual battle armor. There seems
to be a premium on armor that is "undamaged", i.e. never
been in combat.
The best I've seen was either at the Tower of London or
in the BM. I can't recall which at this point.
---- Paul J. Gans
E. C. Lee
> "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:f0cfed5b.03020...@posting.google.com...
> > "Thorsten Ruffle-Brandt" <ne...@brumble.net> wrote in message
> news:<pan.2003.02.03....@brumble.net>...
> > > Grethe Bachmann wrote in
> <3e3e2636$0$13153$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk>:
<snip>
>
> Hello Eve!
> Sorry - this is off-topic from your questions too -
> like my previous letter!
> If you haven't been in Prague, then try that next year.
> It's a wonderful city and the medieval atmosphere is
> strong. It's easy to walk from place to place in the inner
> old part of Prague - it is so beautiful.
> You can still have a three-course dinner or more with
> good wine at a very cheap price. And there are lots
> of cosy pubs with excellent Czech beer.
> But maybe you have been there?
>
Never been there, but a good friend of mine went a while ago and raved
about it. It does sound wonderful.
Unfortunately this current trip might empty all my coffers for a
while. My next adventure will probably be to Scandanavia to visit a
good friend. But I will keep Prague on my list, and if any one does
offer me a free vacation there, I certainly won't turn them down! ;-)
Eve
Martin Reboul
Paul J Gans wrote...
> Yeah. Chicago's a little disappointing in that way.
>
> Most armor I've seen in museums in the US is show armor,
> i.e. late medieval or early modern designed to be worn
> in parades and on special occasions. There's little
> here in terms of chain or actual battle armor. There seems
> to be a premium on armor that is "undamaged", i.e. never
> been in combat.
Most surviving armour here has probably seen little action, or is tournament
stuff or for display - hence the many mistaken notions about armour in the
late 19th early 20th C.
The Wallace Collection has one of the best displays in London - and much
more besides....
> The best I've seen was either at the Tower of London or
> in the BM. I can't recall which at this point.
The Tower's not bad, but it's mostly Greenwich armour a la Henry VIII -
ugly, cumbersome and with enormous codpieces which have amused generations
of schoolkids.
Cheers
Martin
erilar
<ga...@panix.com> wrote:
> Most armor I've seen in museums in the US is show armor,
> i.e. late medieval or early modern designed to be worn
> in parades and on special occasions. There's little
> here in terms of chain or actual battle armor. There seems
> to be a premium on armor that is "undamaged", i.e. never
> been in combat.
That's to impress the tourists 8-) What impresses ME is stuff that HAS
seen some wear and tear. I've seen some nice chain in Germany....
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote...
I think that I've got a number of photos of mail taken at the
Tower. In places some of it looks rather ratty as broken links
were not repaired and sections are open -- I imagine about how
it might look after a battle.
There was also a small but impressive selection of weapons.
I gather that the National Armories (or whatever it is called)
used to be housed there but has now moved north. It has a
*very* impressive collection, or so I am told.
What we have here in the US is mostly museum pieces in all
senses of the word. Some quite beautiful, but still...
----- Paul J. Gans
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Gans) wrote:
> The best I've seen was either at the Tower of London or
> in the BM. I can't recall which at this point.
For the benefit of people who want to visit the Tower Armouries have
moved. To Leeds IIRC, less convenient for foreign visitors but it does
mean they can display much more of the collection.
Ken Young
ken...@cix.co.uk
Maternity is a matter of fact
Paternity is a matter of opinion
William Black
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:b1ufkl$jse$4...@reader1.panix.com...
> I gather that the National Armories (or whatever it is called)
> used to be housed there but has now moved north. It has a
> *very* impressive collection, or so I am told.
The Royal Armouries is now in Leeds and is now free to get in..
Live demonstrations of fighting/historical weapons every thirty minutes or
so and some seriously nice displays including a stuffed elephant wearing a
complete elephant armour and some Mongol heavy cavalry armour (you know,
the stuff that doesn't exist) and a German foil and matching rapier pair
dated 1600, which also shouldn't exist as the foil was invented by the
French in about 1620...
Seriously good fun, it serves good food as well, and it also has a
reasonably good book shop.
It's also only about 60 miles from here :-)
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
E. C. Lee
> In article <b1q1n3$5ve$3...@reader1.panix.com>, Paul J Gans
> <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course, you've got plenty of riches in Chicago too. It
> > is the most overlooked (by tourists) city in the US.
>
> I keep ending up in the Art Institute, where my daughter is a member 8-)
> They have lots of neat stuff there, though their armor is late medieval
> and their medieval art strikes one who's been looking at it in Germany
> as pretty minimal. The Minneapolis Institute of Art is also better at
> ancient than at medieval(was just there again and made it out with only
> two more books!!!)
The Art Institute is very weak in Ancient. And Renaissance. Their
strong point is Impressionism and they also some very nice late 19th
and 20th century stuff , though very weak in 19th century English,
which unfortunately my current interest. Unless, of course, you
count Whistler, of which they have many, as well as some wonderful
Sargents. And there is one great Rossetti. There's also a stellar
print collection at the Art Institute, but it's up in bits and pieces.
You will find SOME medieval pieces, and many of them are quite nice.
There's just not a ton of them by either New York, and certainly not
by European standards.
Now the Cleveland had a former director who was a medieval specialist
and they have some incredible Medieval enamels there. That's a pretty
incredible museum in general. Not just in the very high quality of
their art, but in the very manner in which it's presented. And they
have an absolutely brilliant Asian collection. This is one of the top
museums in the country and not a lot of people realize that.
BTW, did you see the show of the Polish collection in Milwaukee? Now
THAT was something! They had a top DaVinci and a stunning Memling on
display. Many other wonderful things as well, although they'd be more
off topic.
Eve
Ms Brenda M. Cook
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0cfed5b.03020...@posting.google.com...
>
> Well, I agree as well about the sorry state of this newsgroup as a
> forum for Medieval history (although it IS a lively spot for political
> discussion). In an open newsgroup you are stuck with people writing
> about anything they please, but this is ridiculous!
>
> I don't think we can really get rid of the non-topic posts without the
> cooperation of those who participate and although a few folks might be
> convinced, there are many who will not be.
>
> However, another part of the solution is to start posting new topics
> that ACTUALLY do refer to the Middle Ages. I suggest those who want
> to discuss Medieval history come up with some good Medieval topics.
> I plan on visiting London and Paris this summer. Haven't been to
> either place in decades. Perhaps someone could suggest some medieval
> sites beyond the usual tourist fare? What are people's favorite, not
> miss sights in those two cities that you could recommend?
LONDON
Try the church of Saint Bartholomew the Great, next door to the modern
(=18th century but still functioning) St Barts Hospital which is the
successor to the work of the monks. St B the Great is 12th C mostly and
wonderful. Very mediaeval foundation story - King Henry's jester Rahere had
a melancholic fit, renounced his career and the court and founded the
monastery. We'd probably call him manic depressive but he inspired a lot of
good works ...
Not far away in Clerkenwell (now there's a mediaeval name for you!) is a
church of St John which is the HQ of the Order of the Knights of St John of
Jerusalem. Once a monastic fighting order (survived where the Templars did
not - inherited a lot of their land too) and transformed itself in modern
(19th C) times into the St John Ambulance Brigade. They have a very nice
museum there which spans from the Crusades to the present day.
Not much else mediaeval in London - remember the Great Fire of 1666 ....
PARIS
DO NOT MISS the Musee de Cluny built over the Thermes, the Roman Baths. It
is a WONDERFUL mediaeval collection including the "other" set of Unicorn
tapestries.
Have a nice time!
BMC
Drew Nicholson
news:f0cfed5b.03020...@posting.google.com...
> erilar <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:<erilarloFRY-E055...@news.airstreamcomm.net>...
> > In article <b1q1n3$5ve$3...@reader1.panix.com>, Paul J Gans
> > <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Of course, you've got plenty of riches in Chicago too. It
> > > is the most overlooked (by tourists) city in the US.
> >
> > I keep ending up in the Art Institute, where my daughter is a member 8-)
> > They have lots of neat stuff there, though their armor is late medieval
> > and their medieval art strikes one who's been looking at it in Germany
> > as pretty minimal. The Minneapolis Institute of Art is also better at
> > ancient than at medieval(was just there again and made it out with only
> > two more books!!!)
>
> The Art Institute is very weak in Ancient. And Renaissance. Their
> strong point is Impressionism and they also some very nice late 19th
> and 20th century stuff , though very weak in 19th century English,
> which unfortunately my current interest. Unless, of course, you
> count Whistler, of which they have many, as well as some wonderful
> Sargents. And there is one great Rossetti. There's also a stellar
> print collection at the Art Institute, but it's up in bits and pieces.
>
Living in Chicago and going there often to appease my wife and father, I
agree with you distinctly.
I also have the unhappy burden of being a "walker" -- I walk through most
rooms in the Art Institute, glancing around till I find something I _really_
like, and then I look at it for more than a few seconds before walking on.
Every once in a while, I'll be so enraptured by something (the rapiers at
the AI are an example) that I'll not only look at it for more than a
minutes, but will look at it again and again on consecutive visits.
On the other hand, both my wife and my father are "watchers". My dad can
sit, looking at a painting for fifteen minutes. More if it's impressionist.
All those dots, I guess...
So, frequently, I end up being "done" literally hours before they are. It's
gotten so I simply stay home with the child, and let them go together... :P
Some Dude
country, you have made these places sound spectacular! I plan a pilgrimage
to Europe in June of 2004. If there are any suguestions as to the right
attractions I would be forever grateful.
Thanks
Rob
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:b1s371$q3r$1...@reader1.panix.com...
Paul J Gans
>Pardon for my piping in. Speaking as one who has seldom left his home
>country, you have made these places sound spectacular! I plan a pilgrimage
>to Europe in June of 2004. If there are any suguestions as to the right
>attractions I would be forever grateful.
>Thanks
>Rob
Depends on what you are interested in. There are things
medieval all over the place. And there are other things
as well.
But I'd not leave if your power can go out for 9 days.
The sump pump will never catch up.
---- Paul J. Gans
William Black
"Some Dude" <some...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1fh6a.14783$jR3.7...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> Pardon for my piping in. Speaking as one who has seldom left his home
> country, you have made these places sound spectacular! I plan a
pilgrimage
> to Europe in June of 2004. If there are any suguestions as to the right
> attractions I would be forever grateful.
The nice thing about wandering around most of Europe these days is that
there is loads of stuff to look at.
I live in rural Northern England, and within sixty miles are a dozen or so
medieval castles, two good collection of weapons and armour (one of them
being probably the best such collection in the world), five medieval
Cathedrals (or Ministers, the terms are synonymous) and more than a few
battlefields.
What are you interested in?