Differences between Anglo-Saxons and Vikings?
Tom Peters
.. 7th cy.) and the Vikings (8th..11th cy.). Are they essentially the
same? If not, what are the major distinctions?
Similarities:
- same origin (Anglo-Saxon Beowulf saga takes place right in the
heartland of the Vikings of about 4 cenuries later)
- belligerent society, pirates
- same religion (Odin etc.)
- boat graves
David Holiman
It is easier to write quickly about similarities.
Here are the similarities from a person who likes lists:
(1) They both spoke Germanic languages.
(2) They came to Britain in sailboats.
(3) They had weapons made of iron.
(4) They had government based on "trial by combat" and
"Might makes right."
(5) They burned, pillaged, and destroyed anything
connected with Roman culture except the Roman
weapons and treasure.
(6) They did not arrive as Christians but as Pagans
who worshipped anthropomorphic as well as animal
type gods.
(7) There was no "good neighbor" program. They preferred
to rape or kill the neighbors rather than socialize.
DAVID H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Uwe Müller
"David Holiman" <dcho...@ev1.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4315ddc6.04081...@posting.google.com...
> Tom Peters <tpe...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:<411EC4C9...@xs4all.nl>...
> > There are many similarities and continuity between the Anglo-Saxons (3rd
> > .. 7th cy.) and the Vikings (8th..11th cy.). Are they essentially the
> > same? If not, what are the major distinctions?
> > Similarities:
> > - same origin (Anglo-Saxon Beowulf saga takes place right in the
> > heartland of the Vikings of about 4 cenuries later)
> > - belligerent society, pirates
> > - same religion (Odin etc.)
> > - boat graves
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> It is easier to write quickly about similarities.
> Here are the similarities from a person who likes lists:
> (1) They both spoke Germanic languages.
> (2) They came to Britain in sailboats.
The saxons AFAIK used rowing boats. And since someone forgot to build a
bridge and the tunnel is much later, anyone coming to Britain from across
the sea needed a boat.
> (3) They had weapons made of iron.
Right. Only this point does not give you any power of differentiation,
because at the time most of the people used iron weapons.
> (4) They had government based on "trial by combat" and
> "Might makes right."
Both groups had no government at all. They had a social organization based
on hereditary connections and individual obligations. The saxons emphasised
the hereditary line and were organised as tribes and as 'friendship
groups'?, Gefolgschaften, while the Vikings emphasised the individual bond
and acknowledged hereditary connections.
Their system of Justice was based on the balancing of wrongs done by two
sides, not on 'good' and 'bad'.
> (5) They burned, pillaged, and destroyed anything
> connected with Roman culture except the Roman
> weapons and treasure.
While the Saxons fought at the limes saxonicus, the Vikings met no living
Romans in England. Burning etc. was the normal way of the time to establish
domination, which was the normal style of foreign politics.
> (6) They did not arrive as Christians but as Pagans
> who worshipped anthropomorphic as well as animal
> type gods.
As the Romans, the Celts, The Irish, the Welsh, the Scots and Picts, etc.
You could even describe modern day football supporters along these lines.
> (7) There was no "good neighbor" program. They preferred
> to rape or kill the neighbors rather than socialize.
see above, foreign politics
Similarities:
Both peoples had non-market economies but were engaged in long-distance
trade, fishing and cattle breeding were much more important to them,
compared with native and roman influenced economies emphasising plant
growing, both had organized the not-yet-having-inherited and the never-will
youth into highly mobile groups of herders, fishers, traders and raiders,
both settled quitely and more or less peacefully when given a chance to do
so.
Differences:
Saxons cremated their dead, Vikings used inhumation, Saxons came from the
south, Vikings from the east and north, Saxons had their major trade links
south only via the Franks and the Rhine, while Vikings were also connected
by a second route across Russia. The saxons attacked and settled only in
England, while the Vikings roamed much further. Many Saxons had fought for
Rome, many Vikings for Byzanz.
This is necessarily a very rough picture, but it will do as an example of
what is helpfull when comparing two peoples. You see the differences?
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Uzytkownik "Tom Peters" <tpe...@xs4all.nl> napisal w wiadomosci
news:411EC4C9...@xs4all.nl...
There is possibility that at least a part of invaders of the British Isles
at the time of Anglo-Saxon invasion were in a straight line predecessors of
the VIII-XI century Vikings, as the Sutton Hoo treasure, has revealed that
the dynasty that conquered East Anglia, was not Anglian, not Saxon, but
Swedish, from the area around Uppsala and Stockholm: the east coast of
Sweden, facing Finland and the Baltic states of Estonia and Latvia. Swedes
were essentially Vikings. We must also remember that Anglo Saxons as yhe
rest of Germans at some point in time moved from Scandinavia due south
taking over large chunks of teritories called by the Romans Germania.
Cheers
Arkadiusz
Soren Larsen
news:2o90a0F...@uni-berlin.de
> Hi David,
>
> "David Holiman" <dcho...@ev1.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:4315ddc6.04081...@posting.google.com...
>> Tom Peters <tpe...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> news:<411EC4C9...@xs4all.nl>...
>>> There are many similarities and continuity between the Anglo-Saxons
>
> The saxons AFAIK used rowing boats. And since someone forgot to
> build a bridge and the tunnel is much later, anyone coming to Britain
> from across the sea needed a boat.
We do have one source for Saxon sails though; Sidonius Apollinaris
BOOK VIII, 15, 15
"Moreover, when the Saxons are setting sail from the continent, and are
about to drag their firm-holding anchors from an enemy's shore, it is their
usage, thus homeward bound, to abandon every tenth captive to the slow
agony of a watery end, casting lots with perfect equity among the doomed
crowd in execution of this iniquitous sentence of death."
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/sidonius_letters_08book8.htm
The first report of germanics using sailing ships is during the Batavian
rebellion
in AD 69-71.
Rowed ships was however the preferred vessel for warfare among the germanics
for many more centuries.
>
> Both groups had no government at all.
WOAH!! Where did you get this?
It would certainly interest chaps like Horik I at the start of the
viking age and Canute at the end to hear about this.
The Saxons were also pretty quick to establish kingdoms
in England for people without government.
>
>> (5) They burned, pillaged, and destroyed anything
>> connected with Roman culture except the Roman
>> weapons and treasure.
>
> While the Saxons fought at the limes saxonicus, the Vikings met no
> living Romans in England. Burning etc. was the normal way of the time
> to establish domination, which was the normal style of foreign
> politics.
Yup, You might wish to compare the Saxon deeds with the actions of the
very Christian emperor Charlemagnes actions in Saxony.
>
>> (6) They did not arrive as Christians but as Pagans
>> who worshipped anthropomorphic as well as animal
>> type gods.
>
> As the Romans, the Celts, The Irish, the Welsh, the Scots and Picts,
> etc. You could even describe modern day football supporters along
> these lines.
And I would really like to know where he got those 'animal type gods'?
>
>> (7) There was no "good neighbor" program. They preferred
>> to rape or kill the neighbors rather than socialize.
>
> see above, foreign politics
Which was practised by christians as well
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Soren Larsen
news:cfnqi6$dmd$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl
> Uzytkownik "Tom Peters" <tpe...@xs4all.nl> napisal w wiadomosci
> news:411EC4C9...@xs4all.nl...
>> There are many similarities and continuity between the Anglo-Saxons
>> (3rd .. 7th cy.) and the Vikings (8th..11th cy.). Are they
>> essentially the same? If not, what are the major distinctions?
>> Similarities:
>> - same origin (Anglo-Saxon Beowulf saga takes place right in the
>> heartland of the Vikings of about 4 cenuries later)
>> - belligerent society, pirates
>> - same religion (Odin etc.)
>> - boat graves
>
> There is possibility that at least a part of invaders of the British
> Isles at the time of Anglo-Saxon invasion were in a straight line
> predecessors of the VIII-XI century Vikings, as the Sutton Hoo
> treasure, has revealed that the dynasty that conquered East Anglia,
> was not Anglian, not Saxon, but Swedish, from the area around Uppsala
> and Stockholm:
Not really. It only shows that they shared the same taste in art and
decoration styles. Preferences they shared with the whole of northern
germania.
>the east coast of Sweden, facing Finland and the
> Baltic states of Estonia and Latvia. Swedes were essentially Vikings.
> We must also remember that Anglo Saxons as yhe rest of Germans at
> some point in time moved from Scandinavia due south taking over large
> chunks of teritories called by the Romans Germania.
There is actually no evidence for the Saxons originating from Scandinavia.
The Anglii OTOH are from presebt day Southern Jutland/South Slesvig
in present day Germany.
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Użytkownik "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> napisał w wiadomości
news:2o9f92F...@uni-berlin.de...
> "Arkadiusz Bugaj" <arca...@gazeta.pl> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:cfnqi6$dmd$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl
> > Uzytkownik "Tom Peters" <tpe...@xs4all.nl> napisal w wiadomosci
> > news:411EC4C9...@xs4all.nl...
> >> There are many similarities and continuity between the Anglo-Saxons
> >> (3rd .. 7th cy.) and the Vikings (8th..11th cy.). Are they
> >> essentially the same? If not, what are the major distinctions?
> >> Similarities:
> >> - same origin (Anglo-Saxon Beowulf saga takes place right in the
> >> heartland of the Vikings of about 4 cenuries later)
> >> - belligerent society, pirates
> >> - same religion (Odin etc.)
> >> - boat graves
> >
> > There is possibility that at least a part of invaders of the British
> > Isles at the time of Anglo-Saxon invasion were in a straight line
> > predecessors of the VIII-XI century Vikings, as the Sutton Hoo
> > treasure, has revealed that the dynasty that conquered East Anglia,
> > was not Anglian, not Saxon, but Swedish, from the area around Uppsala
> > and Stockholm:
>
> Not really. It only shows that they shared the same taste in art and
> decoration styles. Preferences they shared with the whole of northern
> germania.
>
>
> >the east coast of Sweden, facing Finland and the
> > Baltic states of Estonia and Latvia. Swedes were essentially Vikings.
> > some point in time moved from Scandinavia due south taking over large
> > chunks of teritories called by the Romans Germania.
>
> There is actually no evidence for the Saxons originating from Scandinavia.
> The Anglii OTOH are from presebt day Southern Jutland/South Slesvig
> in present day Germany.
Which quite obviously suggests their nothern connections.
Cheers
Arkadiusz
Inger E Johansson
"Arkadiusz Bugaj" <arca...@gazeta.pl> skrev i meddelandet
news:cfo21s$8oo$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
The Saxons origined from the Baltic. Actually from southern Estonia of today
eastward. It was due to Hermaneric and his son that Saxons lead by the Saxon
guardians of Hermaneric's grandson ended up in Old Saxon on large. Some
Saxons had moved there earlier but the large group came then.
Inger E
Inger E
>
> Cheers
>
> Arkadiusz
>
>
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Użytkownik "Inger E Johansson" <inger_e....@notelia.com> napisał w
wiadomości news:pCNTc.100909$dP1.3...@newsc.telia.net...
What is the proof for that?
It was due to Hermaneric and his son that Saxons lead by the Saxon
> guardians of Hermaneric's grandson ended up in Old Saxon on large.
By saying Old Saxon you mean Saxony in today's Germany. I suppose.
Some
> Saxons had moved there earlier but the large group came then.
Id est when?
erilar
dcho...@ev1.net (David Holiman) wrote:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> It is easier to write quickly about similarities.
> Here are the similarities from a person who likes lists:
> (1) They both spoke Germanic languages.
> (2) They came to Britain in sailboats.
> (3) They had weapons made of iron.
> (4) They had government based on "trial by combat" and
> "Might makes right."
> (5) They burned, pillaged, and destroyed anything
> connected with Roman culture except the Roman
> weapons and treasure.
> (6) They did not arrive as Christians but as Pagans
> who worshipped anthropomorphic as well as animal
> type gods.
> (7) There was no "good neighbor" program. They preferred
> to rape or kill the neighbors rather than socialize.
Well, (1) is true.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument
is that reason doesn't count. Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
erilar
<wolse...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > (7) There was no "good neighbor" program. They preferred
> > to rape or kill the neighbors rather than socialize.
> > DAVID H
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>
>
> Is there not a considerable amount of debate going on right now in the
> academic community over this right now?
That's not the only item on his list that's debatable.
Inger E Johansson
Contemporary written sources. some of them written by so called Sofists who
was mad at Hermaneric's son because he and his man are said to have become
believer of the Arian Christian faith.... Others who has details are Fathers
of the Church. Part of the Hermaneric story starts as told by Ammianus
Marcellinus in 31:3-31:5, other parts can be found in Zosimus 4:20
most of the documentation is to be found in Greek priests and sofists works.
>
> It was due to Hermaneric and his son that Saxons lead by the Saxon
> > guardians of Hermaneric's grandson ended up in Old Saxon on large.
>
> By saying Old Saxon you mean Saxony in today's Germany. I suppose.
Yes, well almost. In those days a lot of the northern parts are said, in
contemporary sources, to have been swampy unhabital land. I never been there
so I haven't had a chance to look if the statement or statements alike that
are plausible....
>
> Some
> > Saxons had moved there earlier but the large group came then.
>
> Id est when?
Don't know for sure. They are noted east of River Visla after 50 AD.
>
Inger E
>
>
Soren Larsen
> Użytkownik "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> napisał w wiadomości
> news:2o9f92F...@uni-berlin.de...
>> "Arkadiusz Bugaj" <arca...@gazeta.pl> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:cfnqi6$dmd$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl
>>>
>>> There is possibility that at least a part of invaders of the British
>>> Isles at the time of Anglo-Saxon invasion were in a straight line
>>> predecessors of the VIII-XI century Vikings, as the Sutton Hoo
>>> treasure, has revealed that the dynasty that conquered East Anglia,
>>> was not Anglian, not Saxon, but Swedish, from the area around
>>> Uppsala and Stockholm:
>>
>> Not really. It only shows that they shared the same taste in art and
>> decoration styles. Preferences they shared with the whole of northern
>> germania.
>>
> Of cours interpretation of archeological findings can be disputable.
Some more than others.
Can you come up with a find in Sutton Hoo that
suggest a specific Swedish origin more than a shared germanic
taste?
>>
>>> the east coast of Sweden, facing Finland and the
>>> Baltic states of Estonia and Latvia. Swedes were essentially
>>> Vikings. We must also remember that Anglo Saxons as the rest of
>>> Germans at some point in time moved from Scandinavia due south
>>> taking over large chunks of teritories called by the Romans
>>> Germania.
>>
>> There is actually no evidence for the Saxons originating from
>> Scandinavia. The Anglii OTOH are from presebt day Southern
>> Jutland/South Slesvig
>> in present day Germany.
>
> Which quite obviously suggests their nothern connections.
Northern connections are however quite different from a
proven exodus from Scandinavian .
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Paul J Gans
>> (7) There was no "good neighbor" program. They preferred
>> to rape or kill the neighbors rather than socialize.
>> DAVID H
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>Is there not a considerable amount of debate going on right now in the
>academic community over this right now?
Yes.
---- Paul J. Gans
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Who was Sofists? I know there were sofists. One of them might have been
Zosimos mentioned by you as he is probably identical with one of the
sophists, called Zosimos of Gaza (or Ascalon? definitely not Zosimos of
Panopolis) living V/VI AD.
Others who has details are Fathers
> of the Church. Part of the Hermaneric story starts as told by Ammianus
> Marcellinus in 31:3-31:5, other parts can be found in Zosimus 4:20
> most of the documentation is to be found in Greek priests and sofists
works.
Ermaneric (Hermanericus) was a great leader of Goths who united them just
before Hunn's
invasion in 370. Commited suicide because he wasn't able to defend his
empire.
Marcelinus in pargraphs shown by you writes about invasion of Huns on Tanaic
Alans and Goths, migration of Goths across the Danube, their settlement
within Empire borders and subsequent rebellion against the Romans. Nothing
about Anglo Saxons. Unfortunately I don't have Zosimos Hisoria Romana so I
couldn't check it.
Could you also be more specific about 'Greek priests and sofists works'?
> > It was due to Hermaneric and his son that Saxons lead by the Saxon
> > > guardians of Hermaneric's grandson ended up in Old Saxon on large.
Where can I find reference for this? By Zosimos?
> By saying Old Saxon you mean Saxony in today's Germany. I suppose.
>> Yes, well almost. In those days a lot of the northern parts are said, in
> contemporary sources, to have been swampy unhabital land. I never been
there
> so I haven't had a chance to look if the statement or statements alike
that are plausible....
> >
> > Some Saxons had moved there earlier but the large group came then.
> >
> > Id est when?
>
> Don't know for sure. They are noted east of River Visla after 50 AD.
Who reports this. I have never heard about settlement of Anglo-Saxons on the
territory of today's Poland
Regards
Arkadiusz
Arkadiusz Bugaj
> "Arkadiusz Bugaj" <arca...@gazeta.pl> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:cfo21s$8oo$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl
> > Użytkownik "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> napisał w wiadomości
> > news:2o9f92F...@uni-berlin.de...
> >> "Arkadiusz Bugaj" <arca...@gazeta.pl> skrev i en meddelelse
> >> news:cfnqi6$dmd$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl
>
> >>>
> >>> There is possibility that at least a part of invaders of the British
> >>> Isles at the time of Anglo-Saxon invasion were in a straight line
> >>> predecessors of the VIII-XI century Vikings, as the Sutton Hoo
> >>> treasure, has revealed that the dynasty that conquered East Anglia,
> >>> was not Anglian, not Saxon, but Swedish, from the area around
> >>> Uppsala and Stockholm:
> >>
> >> Not really. It only shows that they shared the same taste in art and
> >> decoration styles. Preferences they shared with the whole of northern
> >> germania.
> >>
>
> Some more than others.
>
> Can you come up with a find in Sutton Hoo that
> suggest a specific Swedish origin more than a shared germanic
> taste?
>
>
section
on Online Reference Book
>
>
> >>
> >>> the east coast of Sweden, facing Finland and the
> >>> Baltic states of Estonia and Latvia. Swedes were essentially
> >>> Vikings. We must also remember that Anglo Saxons as the rest of
> >>> Germans at some point in time moved from Scandinavia due south
> >>> taking over large chunks of teritories called by the Romans
> >>> Germania.
> >>
> >> There is actually no evidence for the Saxons originating from
> >> Scandinavia. The Anglii OTOH are from presebt day Southern
> >> Jutland/South Slesvig
> >> in present day Germany.
> >
> > Which quite obviously suggests their nothern connections.
>
> Northern connections are however quite different from a
> proven exodus from Scandinavian .
Well..... It is a hypothesis based on what we know about migrations of other
German tribes.
Could the Anglo-Saxons have been different from heir other German
compatriots?
By the way, do you have any other idea?
Cheers
Arkadiusz
David Read
"Arkadiusz Bugaj" <arca...@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
news:cfprnc$s23$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
It's often a good idea with Inger's posts to bear in mind that it is her
interpretation of Swedish history which is first and foremost at the heart
of almost everything she writes here. Her supposed forthcoming book, "The
Gothic Mosaic" will presumably tell the world all it needs to know about
Inger's thesis. Part of this thesis is to emphasize the links, if not
actually invent some of them, between the Goths, (who, according to one
predominantly Swedish school of thought, have a Swedish origin) and other
Germanic peoples, including, amongst others, the Saxons. Thus, as you
rightly point out, the passage referred to in Ammianus does not mention the
Saxons nor indeed does it go any way to answering your question about the
proof of Saxon origins in the Baltic.
So, from http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/ammianus31.html we find
the following:
3. cuius post obitum rex Vithimiris creatus restitit aliquantisper Halanis,
Hunis aliis fretus, quos mercede sociaverat partibus suis. verum post
multas, quas pertulit clades, animam effudit in proelio, vi superatus
armorum. cuius parvi filii Viderichi nomine curam susceptam Alatheus
tuebatur et Saphrax, duces exerciti et firmitate pectorum noti, qui cum
tempore arto praeventi abiecissent fiduciam repugnandi, cautius discedentes
ad amnem Danastium pervenerunt, inter Histrum et Borysthenem per camporum
ampla spatia diffluentem.
4. haec ita praeter spem accidisse doctus Athanarichus Theruingorum iudex -
in quem, ut ante relatum est, ob auxilia missa Procopio dudum Valens
commoverat signa - stare gradu fixo temptabat, surrecturus in vires, si ipse
quoque lacesseretur, ut ceteri.
5. castris denique prope Danasti margines ac Greuthungorum vallem longius
oportune metatis, Munderichum ducem postea limitis per Arabiam, cum
Lagarimano et optimatibus aliis ad usque vicensimmn lapidem misit, hostium
speculaturos adventum, ipse aciem nullo turbante interim struens.
Which is translated into English by Walter Hamilton thus:
"He [Ermanerich - DR] was succeeded as king by Vithimir, who resisted the
Alans for a time, relying on the help of other Huns whom he had hired to
support him. But after many defeats he was overwhelmed by superior force and
lost his life in battle. The guardianship of his young son Videric was
undertaken by Alatheus and Saphrax, experienced commanders of proved
courage, but their plans were frustrated by circumstances, and they had to
abandon any hope of successful resistance. So they prudently withdrew to the
river Dniester (Danastius), which waters the wide plains between the Danube
and the Dnieper (Borysthenes).
Athanaric the chief of the Thervingi, against whom, as I have already said,
Valens had recently taken the field to punish him for sending help to
Procopius, heard of these unexpected events and attempted to maintain his
ground, being resolved to put forth all his strength if he should be
attacked like the rest.
Accordingly he took up his position in a good spot near the banks of the
Dniester but some distance away from the defensive works of the Greuthungi,
and sent Munderic, who later commanded on the Arabian frontier, together
with Lagariman and some other notables twenty miles ahead to watch for the
approach of the enemy, while he himself marshalled his army undisturbed."
_Ammianus Marcellinus: The Later Roman Empire_ Penguin, 1985. ISBN 0 14
044406 8
I haven't got and cannot find online a Latin text of Zosimus' _Nova
Historia_but an English translation is available on Roger Pearse's excellent
website, here:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/zosimus04_book4.htm
Again, Zosimus too says nothing about Saxons or their Baltic origins in
Liber IV.
---
cheers,
David Read
Inger E Johansson
I suggest you to stop presenting false information and spreading lies about
me as a person and my academic skill and knowledge. You are a citizent of UK
and as such you can face 2 years prison not to mention a large amount of
money you will have to pay if you continue slandering and abusing me or
anyone else here inside EU. Doesn't matter which kind of form this is. The
present cases up inside EU show that the law includes ALL media on net.
Stop at once your false information!
Inger E
"David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:cfq2ni$2le$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Tron Furu
"David Holiman" <dcho...@ev1.net> skrev i melding
news:4315ddc6.04081...@posting.google.com...
> (7) There was no "good neighbor" program. They preferred
> to rape or kill the neighbors rather than socialize.
How can you say that of people whose very religion demanded that they brew
beer and hang out with the lads - "or the sky will come crashing down on
your heads"? Much more neighbourly than that miserly sip of sour wine with a
carboard wafer other religions are offering. If anything, they were too
persistent in wanting everybody everywhere to have a good time, and as a
consequence they were a bit rough with the organized killjoys. Imagine if
Jupitry had persisted in southern Europe with Asatru in the north. I'm sure
between us we could have agreed to let Calvin have Switzerland. Who knows
what Europe would have looked like - perhaps a bit less oppressive.
T
David Holiman
Welcome back, Uwe ! My commanding officer Hines is still
TAD to <alt.history.british>. Yes, indeed. "Quite so."
I will have some questions for you when I get time.
The English fireplace versus the German raised hearth, etc.
The Germans in colonial America used an iron "stove" not
fireplaces. Need to discuss that with you.
DAVID H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Thank you for your explanation and online references
Cheers
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Soren Larsen
I know this this claim and it is based on the similarities between the finds
in Sutton Hoo and Vendel/Valsgärde.
The problem is that the germanic finds in Sutton Hoo has parallels
all over northern germania allthough not allways in equally high ranking
contexts.
So when Muhlberger et al claims that the East Anglian dynasty originated in
Sweden
based on those similarities, they are definitely placing to much
significance on too
weak evidence.
But it is a nice and entertaining theory ;-)
>>>>
>>>>> the east coast of Sweden, facing Finland and the
>>>>> Baltic states of Estonia and Latvia. Swedes were essentially
>>>>> Vikings. We must also remember that Anglo Saxons as the rest of
>>>>> Germans at some point in time moved from Scandinavia due south
>>>>> taking over large chunks of teritories called by the Romans
>>>>> Germania.
>>>>
>>>> There is actually no evidence for the Saxons originating from
>>>> Scandinavia. The Anglii OTOH are from presebt day Southern
>>>> Jutland/South Slesvig
>>>> in present day Germany.
>>>
>>> Which quite obviously suggests their nothern connections.
>>
>> Northern connections are however quite different from a
>> proven exodus from Scandinavian .
>
> Well..... It is a hypothesis based on what we know about migrations
> of other German tribes.
Can you name one germanic tribe that _WE KNOW_ originated in
Scandinavia and moved to Southern Europe?
Can you provide evidence that this was a common pattern for
germanic tribes?
> Could the Anglo-Saxons have been different from heir other German
> compatriots?
> By the way, do you have any other idea?
I think that they were a tribal confederation with the Chauci at the core
a long the the lines of other germanic tribal confederations; Franks,
Markomanni, Allemanni ie they formed in their core territory south of
Denmark.
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Doug Weller
> Davíd Reed,
> I suggest you to stop presenting false information and spreading lies about
> me as a person and my academic skill and knowledge. You are a citizent of UK
> and as such you can face 2 years prison not to mention a large amount of
> money you will have to pay if you continue slandering and abusing me or
> anyone else here inside EU. Doesn't matter which kind of form this is. The
> present cases up inside EU show that the law includes ALL media on net.
He hasn't slandered you. You can't slander anyone on Usenet. And people
have been really abused on Usenet very badly and no one has gone to jail in
the UK yet. It's not impossible, but it would have to be extremely serious
and damaging. You have no reputation to damage, or rather you have damaged
beyond retrieval any reputation you might have had.
Doug
David Read
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oox5q48zghr$.1rr55uaa09vvz$.dlg@40tude.net...
It's hard to know which should give me most cause to tremble, Doug; my
jolly, whistling postman delivering a letter from Inger's solicitors to my
mailbox, or a knock on the door at midnight from two thugs of the Eurostate
Secret Police.
As I wrote on s.h.m a couple of months ago --- "Since 1996 I've never yet
seen threats or hints of legal action made in s.h.m. that have ever come to
anything, and such threats should be treated with the contempt they
deserve."
cheers,
David Read
D. Spencer Hines
contempt and piquant raspberry tarts.
Pogue Gans has been making such amusing, malicious threats of legal
action against me ever since the Autumn of 1997 -- in between
outrageously funny Gansian attempts to "play the victim" and thereby
engender sympathy or, on another track, rabblerousing, encouraging
others to take various scurrilous actions against me -- all of which
have abysmally failed.
He rounded up "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" -- now defunct and
forgotten.
None of said Gansian threats have been worth the powder to blow them to
hell.
On each and every occasion Gans came a cropper -- with egg all over his
face.
His brother and daughter, who are lawyers, finally convinced him he did
not have a leg to stand on and should cease and desist his pompous,
pontificatory, pusillanimous prattling.
Hilarious!
But these amusing malicious threats and excursions have managed to hoist
Gans with his own petard on scores of merry occasions -- to the Great
Delight of many of us.
Gans = Top Banana.
"Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. Odi profanum vulgus et arceo."
Quintus Aurelius Stultus [33 B.C. - 42 A.D.]
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cfr2i4$3jt$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Bubba Test
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0K8Uc.492$33.1...@eagle.america.net...
erilar
<soh...@tiscali.dk> wrote:
>
> Can you name one germanic tribe that _WE KNOW_ originated in
> Scandinavia and moved to Southern Europe?
Ah, but people who love these theories also hate requests for
evidence. We know that 8-)
William Black
"David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cfr2i4$3jt$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> It's hard to know which should give me most cause to tremble, Doug; my
> jolly, whistling postman delivering a letter from Inger's solicitors to my
> mailbox, or a knock on the door at midnight from two thugs of the
Eurostate
> Secret Police.
>
> As I wrote on s.h.m a couple of months ago --- "Since 1996 I've never yet
> seen threats or hints of legal action made in s.h.m. that have ever come
to
> anything, and such threats should be treated with the contempt they
> deserve."
Nevertheless Inger is in a position to do some slight damage.
She's killed two of my e-mail accounts so far with complaints.
--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government
Sheila J
Did you know there was a legal battle over in the arch group that did go
to court over name-calling and the such on these newsgroup? I was
astounded by that.
Michael Kuettner
Thanks, David !
I'll just crosspost your excellent debunking to sci.arch. so that
it can be added to primesauce.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
"David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:cfq2ni$2le$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
D. Spencer Hines
succeeded.
Their plan was that if enough WOMEN complained of being ABUSED by me on
USENET they could succeed -- so they initiated a flood-the-zone
strategy, with an orchestrated effort to round up every Harridan, Virago
and Harpy they could find.
Gans was furious that he and they, led by Mrs. Doubtfire, [the notorious
Laura V. Blanchard of "Philly"] could never pull it off -- and get my
ISP to pull the plug.
Mrs. Doubtfire was so distressed by her perpetual failures on this count
that she threw up her apron and fled the newsgroup [SHM] never to be
heard from again.
I AGREE with William Black on this one.
Trying to censure someone by getting his or her ISP to pull the plug is
NOT KOSHER.
What Inger did or did not do is unknown to me.
If Black harassed her in EMAIL that's an entirely separable issue. I
have no knowledge of THAT either.
I'm talking about USENET.
I never harassed Gans in email -- indeed I told him VERY early on, way
back in 1997 that I wanted NO email communications from him. This was
after he threatened me with strong-arm tactics and other threats. He
did comply.
Gans was furious because I was, and AM, kicking his rear end in USENET
every day -- so he did his very best to shut me down ---- MANY TIMES.
Came A Cropper -- As Usual.
Some "Defender Of Academic Freedom And Freedom Of Speech" Is Pogue Gans,
My Pet Marmot.
Did you harass Inger in EMAIL, William?
Obscenities?
Threats?
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"William Black" <ab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cfr5hb$4dn$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
David Holiman
Now i KNOW that i will not be one to toy with Inger
....directly, that is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David B
>
>Thanks, David !
>
>I'll just crosspost your excellent debunking to sci.arch. so that
>it can be added to primesauce.
It's a very good example of the research Primesauce is supposed to
facilitate! The primary sources David refers to are both linked already;
Ammianus Marcellinus at
http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/earlier.htm#85
and Zosimus (I couldn't find a Latin text either) via
http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/earlier.htm#17
David B.
>"David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Użytkownik "erilar" <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> napisał w
wiadomości news:erilarloFRY-5106...@news.airstreamcomm.net...
> In article <2oc8voF...@uni-berlin.de>, "Soren Larsen"
> <soh...@tiscali.dk> wrote:
>
> >
> > Can you name one germanic tribe that _WE KNOW_ originated in
> > Scandinavia and moved to Southern Europe?
>
> Ah, but people who love these theories also hate requests for
> evidence. We know that 8-)
> --
> Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
Jordanes, Getica. Writes about Goth's march due south as far as the Don and
Crimean Penisula
I am also curious your opinion, as you don't support opinion that Germans
arrived from Scandinavia. So, where did they come from?
Regards Arkadiusz
David Read
The names we know of Germanic tribes were not recorded by the Germanic
tribes themselves at the time and supposed places of origin. That is, their
names and their places of origin were recorded later, often much later, and
often by foreigners, (typically Romans) and literate Germans who had settled
within the Roman empire. You used the classic example of Jordanes' _Getica_.
Here's just a small taste of how Herwig Wolfram, for one, deals with this
complex problem:
"The oldest story of tribal origins (_origo gentis_)_ to not merely
present a Germanic people as the object of ethnographic interest but to
glorify it was Cassiodorus's _History of the Goths_. Cassiodorus, a high
official in the service of Theodoric the Great and the Italian Gothic kings
who followed, wrote an _origo Gothica_ at Theodoric's request. He presented
his work as the family tradition of the Amal royal clan, and it served the
Byzantine Goth Jordanes as the source for a work he himself called an exerpt
from Cassiodorus's book. Jordanes compiled his work in Constantinople in the
winter (probably) of 551, and, unlike its model, which is known to us only
by its title, has survived. Moreover, we know that Cassiodorus was
trying --- in a manner exemplary for the future --- to make his Gothic
history, his _origo Gothica_, into Roman history, _historia Romana: that is,
he tried to detach the history of Gothic origins from the "eternal return"
and give it a goal in the Christian-teleological sense. To that end he
combined two traditions, the ancient literary tradition and the oral
memories of the Goths. The result strikes us as a magnificent grotesque.
"Gothic history, we are told, lasted 2,030 years, precisely from 1490
B.C. to A.D. 540. In 1490 B.C. the Goths supposedly used three boats --- the
Saxons too came to Britannia in three boats --- to sail from Scandinavia to
the estuary of the Vistula. In A.D 540, King Vitigis surrendered to the
imperial General Belisarius.
"Soon after the Goths had landed on the continent they clashed with the
Rugians and the Vandals, who eventually had to withdraw from the area close
to the coast. Here is where "Gothic Scandinavia," _Gothiscandza_, arose, and
it provided a home for the Goths until "their fifth king, approximately,"
led his people to southern Russia. In their new home, "in the fruitful
meadows" (_Oium_), they had to face severe trials and tribulations. Most of
all, however, their history now became part of classical ethnography with
its preconceived explanatory models and stock phrases. For Cassiodorus
presented his Gothic history as a _Getica_, the history of the Getae, and
Jordanes did not change this in any way. What this means is that he claimed
for the Goths the entire history of the Getae, a people related to the
Scythians and settled at one time in what is modern-day Romania, whom he
understood to be Goths because of their similar-sounding name." pp.28-9
_The Roman Empire and Its Germanic Peoples_ tr. Thomas Dunlop,University
of California 1997. ISBN 0 520 08511 6. Originally published in German as
_Das Reich und die Germanen_, Berlin, 1990.
---
cheers,
David Read
Soren Larsen
> Użytkownik "erilar" <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> napisał w
> wiadomości
> news:erilarloFRY-5106...@news.airstreamcomm.net...
>> In article <2oc8voF...@uni-berlin.de>, "Soren Larsen"
>> <soh...@tiscali.dk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Can you name one germanic tribe that _WE KNOW_ originated in
>>> Scandinavia and moved to Southern Europe?
>>
>> Ah, but people who love these theories also hate requests for
>> evidence. We know that 8-)
>
>
>> --
>> Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
>
> Jordanes, Getica. Writes about Goth's march due south as far as the
> Don and Crimean Penisula
>
You might want to consult:
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/37949
Cassiodorus, Jordanes and the History of the Goths
by Arne Soby Christensen
A study in the myth of the origins and early history of the Goths as told in
the Getica written by Jordanes in AD 551. Jordanes claimed they emigrated
from the island of Scandza (Sweden) in 1490 BC, thus giving them a history
of more than two thousand years. He found this narrative in Cassiodorus's
Gothic history which is now lost. Recent study demonstrates that Cassiodorus
and Jordanes did not base their accounts on a living Gothic tradition of the
past, as the Getica would have us believe. On the contrary, they got their
information only from the Graeco-Roman literature. The Greeks and Romans,
however, did not know of the Goths till the middle of the third century AD.
Consequently, Cassiodorus and Jordanes created a Gothic history partly
through an erudite exploitation of the names of foreign peoples partly by
using the narratives about other peoples' history as if they belonged to the
Goths. The history of the Migrations therefore must be reconsidered. 391p.
(Museum Tusculanum Press 2002)
ISBN 8772897104
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Użytkownik "David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> napisał w
wiadomości news:cft88c$rp2$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
is based on Henryk Łowmiański book 'The Origins of Poland' 6 vols., which
was published at the beginning of 80's and lacked newer positions in
bibliography in parts where Mr Łowmiański dealt with topics attached to
countries behind the Iron Courtain.
Thanks once more
Cheers
Arkadiusz
Inger E Johansson
>
> "Arkadiusz Bugaj" <arca...@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
> news:cft3s2$kbs$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
> >
> > Użytkownik "erilar" <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> napisał w
> > wiadomości
> news:erilarloFRY-5106...@news.airstreamcomm.net...
> > > In article <2oc8voF...@uni-berlin.de>, "Soren Larsen"
> > > <soh...@tiscali.dk> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Can you name one germanic tribe that _WE KNOW_ originated in
> > > > Scandinavia and moved to Southern Europe?
> > >
> > > Ah, but people who love these theories also hate requests for
> > > evidence. We know that 8-)
> >
> >
> > > --
> > > Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
> >
> > Jordanes, Getica. Writes about Goth's march due south as far as the Don
> and
> > Crimean Penisula
> >
> > I am also curious your opinion, as you don't support opinion that
Germans
> > arrived from Scandinavia. So, where did they come from?
> > Regards Arkadiusz
>
> The names we know of Germanic tribes were not recorded by the Germanic
> tribes themselves at the time and supposed places of >origin.
Well sorry to disappoint you but at least two of those who wrote them(the
names) down were half Goths and one is said to have been half Alan. As for
Jordanes he is both said to have been half Alan(I can forward the proof from
his own text if you want me to) and hints that he was half Goth.
The rest is snipped since that isn't valid under correct circumstances and
information.
Inger E
Arkadiusz Bugaj
Thank you for your giving me reference. My knowledge seems to be outdated
but I must ask you about one thing. The source quoted above states that
Jordanes didn't use any serious Gothic sources. Assessing Jordanes's work a
Polish historian Henryk Łowmiański 9Początki Polski , Origins of Poland vol
1 p. 256-272) asserts that he used reliable sources, although indirectly
through Casiodor's lost work. He assumes that Those sources were: Gothic
writer Ablavius information, epic-historical Gothic songs and info acquired
from Gothic maiores (oral tradition). It was openly stated by Jodanes
himself (Getica IV, 28-29, p 61. About Cassiodor speaks about his sources in
a letter of king Atalric to him, which was written by Cassiodor himself.
What about this. Does Arne Christiansen deal with H. łowmiasnki's stance?
Cheers
Arkadiusz Bugaj
David Read
"Inger E Johansson" <inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote in message
news:wkqUc.792>
> Well sorry to disappoint you but at least two of those who wrote them(the
> names) down were half Goths and one is said to have been half Alan. As for
> Jordanes he is both said to have been half Alan(I can forward the proof
from
> his own text if you want me to) and hints that he was half Goth.
>
> The rest is snipped since that isn't valid under correct circumstances and
> information.
Hilarious!
Now sue me.
---
cheers,
David Read
erilar
<arca...@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>
> Jordanes, Getica. Writes about Goth's march due south as far as the Don
> and
> Crimean Penisula
Moving that far south is one thing. Springing full-blown from Sweden
is another entirely.
>
> I am also curious your opinion, as you don't support opinion that Germans
> arrived from Scandinavia. So, where did they come from?
Not only are there numerous scholarly treatments of the Germanic
migrations, but this has been discussed repeatedly here. I see no point
in repeating it yet again. They did NOT come from Sweden in the opinion
of anyone except Inger, who has repeatedly shown that she is no scholar,
and a few others who believe her unsupported statements.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument
William Black
"David Holiman" <dcho...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:4315ddc6.0408...@posting.google.com...
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<9scUc.504$33.1...@eagle.america.net>...
> > If Black harassed her in EMAIL that's an entirely separable issue. I
> > have no knowledge of THAT either.
I certainly didn't e-mail her.
However she did send me a mail once that I didn't answer.
mole
> Can you name one germanic tribe that _WE KNOW_ originated in
> Scandinavia and moved to Southern Europe?
Normans in Sicily? ...ok, I'm joking.
IMO the point isn't the "Southern Europe" part anyway, it's the
Scandinavian origin... How many peoples of proved Scandinavian origin do
we actually know?
Back to lurk mode...
D. Spencer Hines
means?
If that is true then she should not be trying to get your Internet
Account pulled.
That's censorship and abridgement of Freedom of Speech of the worst sort
and it is exactly what Gans tried to do to me -- repeatedly. He also
incited others to do the same.
His actions are on the Public Record in the archives -- for anyone to
peruse.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"William Black" <ab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cftd4s$r8m$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
Soren Larsen
The problem here is that Ablavius nessesarily also must have the
"epic-historical Gothic songs and info acquired from Gothic maiores"
as his sources" which indeed is confirmed by Jordanes. There could
be no other Gothic historic tradition concerning the period before
they came in contact with a litterate society.
Christensen then goes on to isolate everything in Getica not from classical
sources and the leftover must neccesarily contain the "original gothic"
material.
Very little material remains and Christensen shows it as selfcontradictory
and unreliable.
> It was openly stated by Jodanes himself (Getica IV,
> 28-29, p 61. About Cassiodor speaks about his sources in a letter of
> king Atalric to him, which was written by Cassiodor himself.
This letter has survived (Variae IX.xxiv.) and focuses on Cassiodorus
administrative career. So it has no value as a source on the Goths.
There are also two speaches to the Roman senate in Variae in which
Cassiodorus almost admits to constructing the Amal genealogy - from nothing!
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Soren Larsen
news:MPG.1b8bf0446...@nntpserver.tele2.it
Tribes were in question not peoples...
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Inger E Johansson
"mole" <sorry.this...@address.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:MPG.1b8bf0446...@nntpserver.tele2.it...
the Ostrogoths. That can be proven in three totally different ways, First of
all from documents and books written by Fathers of the Church as well as
Historians.
Secondly that can be shown with continued contact from mid Bronze Age up to
Viking Age between at that time since longe established settlements in
Östergötland and via Visla River over Hungarian Pusta, along Donau to the
Black Sea. This part I had up myself in one of my academic essays.
The third way to prove this is as the rest above shown in my Academic Essay
"Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i äldre tider" that there was a migration from
Tjust/Teuste on the border between Östergötland and Smaland same time as the
first Teutones were noted.
These facts I proven myself and others have as well.
There are more proofs for those who needs it.
That he Wisigoths origin in southern Sweden can also be found in Ptolomy's
work. (East of 'Wigothaelf').
But of course you need to be well acquinted with the Prime sources from 475
BC up to Cassiodorus Variae to know the written documentation for this.
Inger E
>
> Back to lurk mode...
Inger E Johansson
Might be hilarious,
but what's more hilarious is that Jordanes sources almost all still exists
and that these which so many scholars refered to in the end of 19th century
seems to have been totally forgotten by scholars after WWII.... Can't figure
out why. Might be due to that so many good men died and left the rest to
start it all over?....
Inger E
>
> ---
>
> cheers,
>
> David Read
>
>
Soren Larsen
meddelelse news:gVrUc.801$d5....@newsb.telia.net
> "mole" <sorry.this...@address.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:MPG.1b8bf0446...@nntpserver.tele2.it...
>> Soren Larsen wrote:
>>> Can you name one germanic tribe that _WE KNOW_ originated in
>>> Scandinavia and moved to Southern Europe?
>>
>> Normans in Sicily? ...ok, I'm joking.
>>
>> IMO the point isn't the "Southern Europe" part anyway, it's the
>> Scandinavian origin... How many peoples of proved Scandinavian
>> origin do we actually know?
>
> the Ostrogoths. That can be proven in three totally different ways,
> First of all from documents and books written by Fathers of the
> Church as well as Historians.
Since this migration are supposed to have happened before
the birth of Christ then Church Fathers are hardly that good sources.
Hilarius
And why do I have a premonition that the dog ate the works of
all these Church Fathers and Historians and that you wont be willing
or able to cite them.
> Secondly that can be shown with continued contact from mid Bronze Age
> up to Viking Age between at that time since longe established
> settlements in Östergötland and via Visla River over Hungarian Pusta,
> along Donau to the Black Sea. This part I had up myself in one of my
> academic essays.
1) Contact does not prove migration.
2) The Jastorf culture in the Visla area was a successor culture to to the
"MacroScandinavian" Northern Bronzeage culture.
So there are supposed to be similarities _even if there was no contact_.
So if your "academic essay" rests on this then all I can say is:
Hilarius
> The third way to prove this is as the rest above shown in my Academic
> Essay "Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i äldre tider" that there was a
> migration from Tjust/Teuste on the border between Östergötland and
> Smaland same time as the first Teutones were noted.
Ah the Teutones!
Have you any idea of what the name 'Teutones' mean you moron?
It means 'People' and the word has cognates in all the early
germanic languages.
And what has the Teutones to do with Goths anyway?
Hilarius
> These facts I proven myself and others have as well.
> There are more proofs for those who needs it.
> That he Wisigoths origin in southern Sweden can also be found in
> Ptolomy's work. (East of 'Wigothaelf').
So you are placing the partition of the VisiGoths and the
OstroGoths to Sweden?
Hilarius
>
> But of course you need to be well acquinted with the Prime sources
> from 475 BC up to Cassiodorus Variae to know the written
> documentation for this.
>
Ah! The Variae!
What exactly in the Variae supports your statements?
Any takers on a bet that Inger cant provide a citation
from Variae that supports her fantasies? :-)
Soren Larsen
Soren Larsen
> "David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:cftchb$gdd$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "Inger E Johansson" <inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote in message
>> news:wkqUc.792>
>>> Well sorry to disappoint you but at least two of those who wrote
>>> them(the names) down were half Goths and one is said to have been
>>> half Alan. As for Jordanes he is both said to have been half Alan(I
>>> can forward the proof from his own text if you want me to) and
>>> hints that he was half Goth.
>>>
>>> The rest is snipped since that isn't valid under correct
>>> circumstances and information.
>>
>> Hilarious!
>>
>> Now sue me.
>
> Might be hilarious,
> but what's more hilarious is that Jordanes sources almost all still
> exists
So you are basically saying that either the authentic Gothic tribal
tradition
still exists or alternatively that Jordanes didn't use authentic Gothic
tribal
tradition as a source to any significant degree ? :-)
Hilarius
Soren Larsen
Michael Kuettner
Bullshit, as always.
> > Well sorry to disappoint you but at least two of those who wrote
them(the
Who wrote what ?
No names, no cites, just garbage.
> > names) down were half Goths and one is said to have been half Alan.
Who ?
> > As for
> > Jordanes he is both said to have been half Alan(I can forward the proof
> from
> > his own text if you want me to) and hints that he was half Goth.
Hints from the voices in your head again ?
You should up your medication.
> >
> > The rest is snipped since that isn't valid under correct circumstances
and
> > information.
>
> Hilarious!
>
> Now sue me.
>
I think you've just touched the foundation of her believes.
She only snips posts when they are seriously disturbing her.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
David Holiman
Jack Armstrong: [speaking to Bruce Cabot] "No wonder
Kong wanted her. Blondes are pretty scarce
around here."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul J Gans
>David Read wrote:
>> "Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:oox5q48zghr$.1rr55uaa09vvz$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>
>>>On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:23:30 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:
>>>
>>>
Well, one would think that the telling of lies known to be
lies by the teller to the detriment of the reputation of
others would not be protected merely because the form of
communication was the internet and not written media.
The law is slowly catching up with the internet. And I
would not be surprised to find that one will sooner or
later be required to register one's legal name with your
ISP and that the sending of spam or libel or slander (whichever
they decide applies) will be punishable in one form or another.
This will, if broadly applied, be an infringement on free
speech. But such infringements are already happening in
the US on the grounds that the war on Terrorism is more
important than any right to free speech.[*]
----- Paul J. Gans
[*} A rough and possibly incorrect enunciation of what
US Attorney General John Ashcroft said the other day
concerning FBI intercepts of internet mail and postings.
Turns out that your ISP is not only required to supply
such (in the US) but is forbidden by law to tell you that
the material has been supplied.
Paul J Gans
>"Arkadiusz Bugaj" <arca...@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
>news:cft3s2$kbs$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
>>
>> U?ytkownik "erilar" <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> napisa? w
>> wiadomo?ci
It is also possible that either Cassiodorus or Jordanes or both
saw the movie and confused it with history.
----- Paul J. Gans
