Any hagiographers out there?
Norah Shrubb
might be informed on such things; apologies in advance.
Discussion at work, which we can't reconcile. I came up with 5 names of
arch-angels (Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Lucifer), but we
couldn't figure out if Michael was the one in all the "St. Mike's"
churches around here. None of the lapsed/retired Catholics could recall
their catechism if there was some St. Michael is some dim time in the
past. Martyr or not, can anybody help with info? Do we call an angel St.?
Norah
(who admits we may, on occasion, have too much spare time at work, but we
do endeavor to keep our conversations lively and educative!)
Suzanne Lucia Demitrio
Norah Shrubb <af...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca> wrote:
>This may not be the right place, but I can't find another newsgroup which
>might be informed on such things; apologies in advance.
>
>Discussion at work, which we can't reconcile. I came up with 5 names of
>arch-angels (Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Lucifer), but we
>couldn't figure out if Michael was the one in all the "St. Mike's"
>churches around here. None of the lapsed/retired Catholics could recall
>their catechism if there was some St. Michael is some dim time in the
>past. Martyr or not, can anybody help with info? Do we call an angel St.?
Yup. That's St. Michael the Archangel.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Suzanne Lucia demi...@cais.com
Frances Kemmish
>
> This may not be the right place, but I can't find another newsgroup which
> might be informed on such things; apologies in advance.
>
> Discussion at work, which we can't reconcile. I came up with 5 names of
> arch-angels (Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Lucifer), but we
> couldn't figure out if Michael was the one in all the "St. Mike's"
> churches around here. None of the lapsed/retired Catholics could recall
> their catechism if there was some St. Michael is some dim time in the
> past. Martyr or not, can anybody help with info? Do we call an angel St.?
>
I don't know abotu the St. Michael's churches you're referring to, but
Covebtry Cathedral in England has an Epsteinsculpture of St Michael
defeating Lucifer, so I imagine it's the archangel in that case.
How pedantic were church namers anyway?
Fran
Edward J Schoenfeld
<arc...@mailhost.iconn.net> wrote:
It might be helpful to remember that the English word saint derives from
the latin "Sanctus" which just means "Holy". So saying something like
"Holy Michael the Archangel" turns into "Sanctus Michaelis" (hence St.
Michael) without any intent to include an Archangel among the martyrs or
confessors (the two categories of 'holy humans' who become the "sancti")
If its any consolation, this confused medieval people too -- expressions
like "Holy Church" (Sanctus Ecclesia) get turned into a human saint named
Ecclesia who lived at some specified time as described in a made up
biography. This was one of the reasons why a number of saints were weeded
out of the calendar after Vatican II.
IVA...@delphi.com
Quoting af359 from a message in soc.history.medieval
>This may not be the right place, but I can't find another newsgroup
>which might be informed on such things; apologies in advance.
>Discussion at work, which we can't reconcile. I came up with 5 names of
>arch-angels (Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Lucifer), but we
>couldn't figure out if Michael was the one in all the "St. Mike's"
>churches around here. None of the lapsed/retired Catholics could recall
>their catechism if there was some St. Michael is some dim time in the
>past. Martyr or not, can anybody help with info? Do we call an angel
>St.?
Yes, we do. His festival is September 29, the Feast of St Michael and All
Angels, more familiarly known as Michaelmas (and known in our house as my
birthday ;-> )
I'd tell you more, but my copy of the Oxford Dictionary of Saints is
currently buried (revised my computer room and installed a new machine last
week!)
Carolyn Boselli Host of CF 35 SCAdians on Delphi (Medieval Stuff)
Cohost for Caregivers Ref Med Caring for those we love
If at first you don't succeed, don't let on you tried.
IVA...@delphi.com
Quoting us015268 from a message in soc.history.medieval
>It might be helpful to remember that the English word saint derives from
>the latin "Sanctus" which just means "Holy". So saying something like
>"Holy Michael the Archangel" turns into "Sanctus Michaelis" (hence St.
>Michael) without any intent to include an Archangel among the martyrs or
>confessors (the two categories of 'holy humans' who become the "sancti")
Two of the categories, which also include Bishops, mystics, etc. (St
Bernadette, for example, was neither a martyr nor a confessor.)
>If its any consolation, this confused medieval people too -- expressions
>like "Holy Church" (Sanctus Ecclesia) get turned into a human saint
>named Ecclesia who lived at some specified time as described in a made
>up biography. This was one of the reasons why a number of saints were
>weeded out of the calendar after Vatican II.
Not to mention, St Veronica of the Veil... veronica being a corruption of
the Greek words for true image....
Carolyn Boselli Host of CF 35 SCAdians on Delphi (Medieval Stuff)
Cohost for Caregivers Ref Med Caring for those we love
A bureaucrat is a politician with tenure
MJG
wonderful question about which came first the saint or the mythic hero?
Timothy C Ellerbee
: Norah Shrubb wrote:
: > Discussion at work, which we can't reconcile. I came up with 5 names of
: > arch-angels (Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Lucifer), but we
: > couldn't figure out if Michael was the one in all the "St. Mike's"
: > churches around here. None of the lapsed/retired Catholics could recall
: > their catechism if there was some St. Michael is some dim time in the
: > past. Martyr or not, can anybody help with info? Do we call an angel St.?
As far as I know, yes, you do...I'm Catholic, and learned an old prayer
as a child - "St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, protect us...etc etc
etc," and I can't think of any other Michael that would have a church
named after him.
--
Genevieve Hoog
Genevieve du Renard
"Whether we fall by ambition, blood or lust,
Like diamonds we are cut with our own dust."
--Webster
IVA...@delphi.com
Quoting mgallehe from a message in soc.history.medieval
>except in Germany where they are usually Sigfried....and thats a
>wonderful question about which came first the saint or the mythic hero?
Not a problem. His name was Perseus, and you see his picture in Greece from
ancient times. Granted, his was a sea-dragon, but the story of the princess
sacrificed and rescued is the same.
Carolyn Boselli Host of CF 35 SCAdians on Delphi (Medieval Stuff)
Cohost for Caregivers Ref Med Caring for those we love
What do you mean, my Birth Certificate expired???
MJG
without getting Jungian....Beowulf, Perseus, St. George, Siegfried, who
else? how many cultures have the story of the knight and the dragon, and how
far back does it go?
Gerrit Bigalski
[about depictions of dragonslayers in medieval times]
>except in Germany where they are usually Sigfried
figures (remember who made them ...), so if you have the choice of
interpreting a given figure as saint or mythical/literary ...
And AFAIK there is no known tradition of Siegfried as dragonslayer
before 16th century (of course this does not mean the idea can't be
older).
But I'm absolutly no expert on this.
Gerrit
Dorothy J Heydt
>excellent point! (re perseus) and one I had not considered, so then
>without getting Jungian....Beowulf, Perseus, St. George, Siegfried, who
>else?
St. Michael the Archangel. (There's a nice picture of him vs.
dragon in the Tres Riches Heures, if my memory serves me
correctly.)
Dorothy J. Heydt
djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu
University of California
Berkeley
IVA...@delphi.com
Quoting GerritBigalski<bigalsk from a message in soc.history.medieval
>mgal...@nova.umuc.edu (MJG) wrote:
>[about depictions of dragonslayers in medieval times]
>>except in Germany where they are usually Sigfried
>I don't think so; depictions are normally of saints and biblical
>figures (remember who made them ...), so if you have the choice of
>interpreting a given figure as saint or mythical/literary ...
I think you are right here. The depictions in churches and Books of Hours
especially will be about Saints and other Biblical figures.
>And AFAIK there is no known tradition of Siegfried as dragonslayer
>before 16th century (of course this does not mean the idea can't be
>older).
When did the name change from Sigurd to Sigfried?
Carolyn Boselli Host of CF 35 SCAdians on Delphi (Medieval Stuff)
Cohost for Caregivers Ref Med Caring for those we love
Do not merely believe in miracles, rely on them!
eleahy
>This may not be the right place, but I can't find another newsgroup which
>might be informed on such things; apologies in advance.
>Discussion at work, which we can't reconcile. I came up with 5 names of
>arch-angels (Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Lucifer), but we
>couldn't figure out if Michael was the one in all the "St. Mike's"
>churches around here. None of the lapsed/retired Catholics could recall
>their catechism if there was some St. Michael is some dim time in the
>past. Martyr or not, can anybody help with info? Do we call an angel St.?
>Norah
will have to do some research into the St Mike buisness - BUT
"Arch" angel meaing "first amoung" there can only be one!!!! Go to
the primary source for this (the bible) the other angels are just
angels - messagers from god. Michael is the only arch angel and seems
to be the name of Jesus when he is/was in heaven before his birth on
earth.
There has been much confusion about this - which is why primary
sources are so necessary. It is very well to say "but so-and so fromt
eh such and such centurey said this...." but so and so could be
wrong!!!! Just because it is said many times doesn't make it right.
Gerrit Bigalski
> >before 16th century (of course this does not mean the idea can't be
> >older).
>
>When did the name change from Sigurd to Sigfried?
Si(e)gfried the German version of the same name (or so I'm told); in
16th century the hero Siegfried was referred to as "Seyfried" in the
German story where the dragon first appears.
I just took a look about Siegfried in a German and an English
encyclopedia (both none to talk about); people seem to disagree if it
is originally a German story, being a German influence in the Poetic
Edda (as a whole 12th century or later) and the base for the later
Volsungasaga (about 1260), or a Norse story, just worked into the
Nibelungenlied (about 1200).
I don't dare to take sides (and I wouldn't stand up for the
informations provided by those encyclopedias, but I don't have
anything else handy right now).
Gerrit
Bill Bedford
In article <4g63g9$b...@peg.apc.org>, eleahy writes:
~
~ af...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Norah Shrubb) wrote:
~
~ >This may not be the right place, but I can't find another newsgroup
which
~ >might be informed on such things; apologies in advance.
~
~ >Discussion at work, which we can't reconcile. I came up with 5
names of
~ >arch-angels (Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Lucifer), but we
~ >couldn't figure out if Michael was the one in all the "St. Mike's"
~ >churches around here. None of the lapsed/retired Catholics could
recall
~ >their catechism if there was some St. Michael is some dim time in
the
~ >past. Martyr or not, can anybody help with info? Do we call an
angel St.?
~
~ >Norah
~
~ will have to do some research into the St Mike buisness - BUT
~
~ "Arch" angel meaing "first amoung" there can only be one!!!!
~ Go to the primary source for this (the bible) the other angels
~ are just angels - messagers from god. Michael is the only
~ arch angel and seems to be the name of Jesus when he is/was in
~ heaven before his birth on earth.
~
~ There has been much confusion about this - which is why
~ primary sources are so necessary. It is very well to say "but
~ so-and so fromt eh such and such centurey said this...." but
~ so and so could be wrong!!!! Just because it is said many
~ times doesn't make it right.
Many older churches are dedicated to St Micheal and Allangels. Which
suggest that the builders know this.